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Edx
11th Mar 2008, 19:31
So much golden material here for those wanting ideas re: Deus Ex. Simply drawn from actual conspiracy theories!!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261&q=endgame&total=2272&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

DX was pretty detailed and back story wise, I just think theres no excuse if DX3 wasnt :)

mouse
11th Mar 2008, 19:43
nice find

minus0ne
12th Mar 2008, 00:00
:lmao: Alex Jones is a crackpot. Try Adam Curtis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Curtis), someone who actually does RESEARCH, talks to the right people instead of making fake "documentaries" in Windows Movie Maker.

I highly recommend Pandora's Box, Century of the Self, The Power of Nightmares and The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom.

Edx
12th Mar 2008, 00:29
:lmao: Alex Jones is a crackpot.
It doesnt matter if he is or isnt, Im suggesting it as good conspriacy theory material for Deus Ex :)

If you want crackpot, David Ike is a lot crazier :)


Try Adam Curtis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Curtis), someone who actually does RESEARCH,
According to that link he seems rather boring compared to Jones' Endgame. The stuff Jones talks about mirrors a lot of what happens in Deus Ex to me.


"documentaries" in Windows Movie Maker.

Whatever you think About Alex, you got to admit they look a lot better than Windows Movie Maker :cool:

minus0ne
13th Mar 2008, 01:06
It doesnt matter if he is or isnt, Im suggesting it as good conspriacy theory material for Deus Ex :)
I don't think EM needs 'conspiracy theory material', they have writers for that.

If you want crackpot, David Ike is a lot crazier :)
Alex Jones and Ike (the reptilian guy?) are fundamentally equally nuts, the difference being Ike probably believes his own crazy-talk while Jones probably doesn't.


According to that link he seems rather boring compared to Jones' Endgame. The stuff Jones talks about mirrors a lot of what happens in Deus Ex to me.
Well there's your problem. If you think Jones' fabrications are more exciting than the actual analysis of the underlying currents that have shaped and are shaping the world today then you're probably best off waiting for a couple of years and then trying for example Century of the Self or The Power of Nightmares. A lot of themes from DX mirror what happened in that same world (the real one, not Jones' fictional one) and what's happening today.

You've obviously never seen any of his work, since they're anything but boring.

Whatever you think About Alex, you got to admit they look a lot better than Windows Movie Maker :cool:
Actually it's probably more like Premiere, but they still look like Windows Movie Maker ;)

mr_cyberpunk
13th Mar 2008, 01:14
Problem with Deus Ex relying on 21st Century Conspiracy Theorists is that majority of them have to do with 911. These theories are stupid and not worth the risk of getting the game condemned.. This was a fear when the first game was made - all references to Masonry were removed and now there are just subtle nods in that direction.

Edx
13th Mar 2008, 17:25
Problem with Deus Ex relying on 21st Century Conspiracy Theorists is that majority of them have to do with 911. These theories are stupid and not worth the risk of getting the game condemned.. This was a fear when the first game was made - all references to Masonry were removed and now there are just subtle nods in that direction.

Watch Alex Jones' "Police State" series before 911, he was just as much into conspiracy theories before that!

Edx
13th Mar 2008, 17:40
I don't think EM needs 'conspiracy theory material', they have writers for that.

Yea, but you dont need to make it up when you can relate to actual conspriacy theories which are more intrenched in actual world politics and events than just making things up which writers can do.


Alex Jones and Ike (the reptilian guy?) are fundamentally equally nuts, the difference being Ike probably believes his own crazy-talk while Jones probably doesn't.

Yes Ike the reptilian guy (lol). I dont know if Jones does or doesnt, it doesnt really matter. But my problem with Jones is he very very rarely admits his errors, he doesnt admit what is speculation and what is really confirmed and he sensationalizes worse than The Sun. I do like the idea of InfoWars though, reporting stories no one else does or is not giving enough time to. Its a shame Jones cant be more skeptical, he would be a great journalist.


Well there's your problem. If you think Jones' fabrications are more exciting than the actual analysis of the underlying currents that have shaped and are shaping the world today then you're probably best off waiting for a couple of years and then trying for example Century of the Self or The Power of Nightmares. A lot of themes from DX mirror what happened in that same world (the real one, not Jones' fictional one) and what's happening today.

Why does it make any difference to my point if Endgame (or other Jones' stuff) is fiction or non-fiction?


You've obviously never seen any of his work, since they're anything but boring.

Got a better link, then?


Actually it's probably more like Premiere, but they still look like Windows Movie Maker ;)

Youve obviously not had to use the piece of crap, Windows Movie Maker ;)

Smoke Screen
13th Mar 2008, 20:30
I The stuff Jones talks about mirrors a lot of what happens in Deus Ex to me.

Probably he has played DX too. ;)

minus0ne
13th Mar 2008, 20:47
Yea, but you dont need to make it up when you can relate to actual conspriacy theories which are more intrenched in actual world politics and events than just making things up which writers can do.
You DO need to make it up, it'll be way more interesting and serve the DX backstory that way. I'd just like them to draw inspiration from reality, not some idiot's delusions ;)

Yes Ike the reptilian guy (lol). I dont know if Jones does or doesnt, it doesnt really matter. But my problem with Jones is he very very rarely admits his errors, he doesnt admit what is speculation and what is really confirmed and he sensationalizes worse than The Sun. I do like the idea of InfoWars though, reporting stories no one else does or is not giving enough time to. Its a shame Jones cant be more skeptical, he would be a great journalist.
Great, we're agreed on that (except that he probably wouldn't make a good journo).

Why does it make any difference to my point if Endgame (or other Jones' stuff) is fiction or non-fiction?
Well the whole one-world government "theory" isn't Jones' alone, of course. It's just very, very unlikely. I'd like for the writers to put more effort into the DX backstory than that.

Got a better link, then?
Sure, unfortunately only some of his work is rights-free (or public domain/whatever) on archive.org:
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmaresDVD

And I wouldn't want to upset any mods, so you'll have to make do with that one or search for yourself (they're not hard to come by, these docu's basically spread themselves), or worse, settle for some heavily shortened youtube/google video version (not recommended).


Youve obviously not had to use the piece of crap, Windows Movie Maker ;)
I have, but regardless of the software used, I can't stand watching one for more than a couple of minutes... they're just... wrong :nut:

pauldenton
14th Mar 2008, 11:07
The goverment conspiracy ideas should stay the main focus, rather than what i fear could be a simplistic and in my view boring discrimination theme that the trailer appears to hint at?

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Mar 2008, 04:14
Problem with Deus Ex relying on 21st Century Conspiracy Theorists is that majority of them have to do with 911. These theories are stupid and not worth the risk of getting the game condemned.. This was a fear when the first game was made - all references to Masonry were removed and now there are just subtle nods in that direction.

Yep.

They have to take conspiracy theories without living descendents or organizations that can sue Eidos for libel/slander.

There are things in the 9/11 conspiracies that can be remade to take the political hogwash out of them, but the beauty of DX is that the conspiracies didn't need to blame anyone for cheap points. DX isn't a way to slice and dice Bush (as much as I like Steve Teck's mod, adding the Bush junk into the game ruined the immersion value, as the game had nothing to do with the present day world) or any political issue today. Little references to Clinton were all over the game (Castle Clinton to the Meade presidential portrait), but nothing direct.

WMD can be a topic, as it does fit the cyberpunk world. But I hope the game doesn't turn out to be a Middle East rehash. It's getting old, and the sand dunes just doesn't fit into the techno steel and augumentation world of the cyberpunk (nor does Star Trek!).

IceBallz
26th Mar 2008, 06:02
Look up David Icke. He have the best conspiracy theories.

Aminevo
14th Apr 2008, 22:50
Yes if you want the conspiracies look at alex jones work, he is by far the largest
figure in the modern conspiracy movement.

Alan Watt is very good too at cuttingthroughthematrix.com (http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/)

I know Alex is annoying and intimidating to alot of people and is a reason they dont like him but when you really look at the sources you will be surprised.

9/11 conspiracies need to be mentioned because it is the mother of them all.

Your not going to get a game that lives up to part 1 if you dont look at the modern conspiracies.

Look at part 2, its was not very good.

Endgame is great btw, especially the ending dealing with eugenics.

Might want to take the time and watch it all, check the sources before judging it.

I personally have to tell the truth that i really dont expect deus ex 3 to live up to its name, i think people are still not prepared to even look at the real major conspiracies.

Here is a wonderful forum from the alex jones network Prisonplanet forum (http://forum.prisonplanet.com/), many other people interested in conspiracies in there, we might need to tell about deus ex if they havent run into it yet.

;)

Vasarto
15th Apr 2008, 01:19
Is it just me or would bill gates be OUR real life Bob Page?

Aminevo
15th Apr 2008, 02:40
Is it just me or would bill gates be OUR real life Bob Page?

Or David Rockefeller?

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure — one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." — From Rockefeller's "Memoirs", (p.405).

minus0ne
15th Apr 2008, 14:04
Must... resist... urge... to.. post.. rant.

Aminevo
15th Apr 2008, 16:48
Must... resist... urge... to.. post.. rant.

Yes that power of nightmares is a great series.

Of course the intention of world government is real, it was also mentioned in DX1.

David Rockefeller

A lifelong globalist, due to the strong influence of his father, he had at an early age further spread his connections when he was invited to attend the inaugural elitist Bilderberg Group meetings, starting with the Holland gathering in 1954. He has been a consistent attendee through the decades and has been a member of the "steering committee", which determines the invitation list for the upcoming annual meetings. These have frequently included prominent national figures who have gone on to be elected as political leaders of their respective countries including Bill Clinton who first attended in 1991.

Rockefeller maintains that, although Bilderberg's role is not to resolve disputes, because of the wide-ranging experience of the various attendees participants are 'free to report on what they have heard' to their respective heads of government.

It was a dissatisfaction with the failure of this group to include Japan that subsequently led to him forming the Trilateral Commission (TC) in July 1973, influenced by, among others, Zbigniew Brzezinski, the National Security Advisor under Carter and the author of Between Two Ages: America's Role in the Technetronic Era, published in 1970. They discussed forming the organization at a Bilderberg Group meeting in Belgium in 1972; Brzezinski subsequently became the inaugural United States director. The Commission also launched its own magazine, the Trialogue.

It held the founding session of its Executive Committee in Tokyo in October, 1973. In May 1975, the first plenary meeting of all of the Commission's regional groups – North America, Europe and Japan, comprising some 300 members – took place in Kyoto. In its Third Annual Report, released in mid-1976, the Commission noted that there was a "noticeably increased emphasis on trilateral ties as the cornerstone of American foreign policy".

This Commission was to come under media scrutiny when it was later disclosed that Carter appointed 26 former Commission members (who must resign before taking up government positions) to senior positions in his Administration. Moreover, it also came out that Carter himself was a former Trilateral member. (The Clinton Administration, by contrast, had close to a dozen Commission members, including Clinton himself; both Gerald Ford and George Bush Sr. were also Trilateralists.)

An important aspect of the Commission is their sending of delegations to visit foreign leaders. In 1989, to cite just one instance, Rockefeller visited the then USSR at the head of a high-powered Commission delegation which included Henry Kissinger, former French President Giscard d'Estaing, former Japanese Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone, and William Hyland, editor of the CFR's prestigious journal Foreign Affairs. In their meeting with Mikhail Gorbachev, the delegation sought and received an explanation on how the USSR would integrate into the world economy. The information thus gained through such delegations is then relayed back in reports to both the TC members and, where appropriate, to United States political leaders.


Its not just the neocons in this, its all of them.

There might be different branches but they have the same intention

Some might lean toward socialism or fascism, they might disagree with the method on which to implement world government.

Throughout history there have been elites and tyrants grabbing power, why would they not want to secure it?

With a uninformed and distracted public and a very well educated elite what do you think they are going to do?

The dreams of the roman empire and the talk of Platos republic ring.

Aminevo
15th Apr 2008, 16:51
Aldous Huxley: The Ultimate Revolution

"There will be, in the next generation or so, a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing dictatorship without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution."
Aldous Huxley, Tavistock Group, California Medical School, 1961

Aldous Huxley speaking at Berkeley Audio (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/VideoTest/hux1.ram)

Questions and Answers (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/VideoTest/hux2.ram)

Aminevo
15th Apr 2008, 17:06
"We have before us the opportunity to forge for ourselves and for future generations a new world order, a world where the rule of law, not the rule of the jungle, governs the conduct of nations. When we are successful, and we will be, we have a real chance at this new world order, an order in which a credible United Nations can use its peacekeeping role to fulfill the promise and vision of the U.N.'s founders." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CWBTL33MpA) George Bush Sr



"Today, America would be outraged if UN troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all people of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the world government." Henry Kissinger


A international order is imminent. Henry Kissinger Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3A4SgCV8jw)

nescience
15th Apr 2008, 18:44
Alex Jones = Joe Greene.

http://www.visualwalkthroughs.com/deusex/hellskitchen1/DeusEx-2003-11-15-14-10-35-.jpg

There is a lot of truth to what he says, but he's still a tabloidist.

All news is tabloid business.

Why do we need someone telling us who the bad guys are in the first place? Isn't that a bad thing when we need someone else to think for us?

Alex Jones is just another false prophet, working FOR the government.

Aminevo
15th Apr 2008, 20:19
Alex Jones = Joe Greene.

http://www.visualwalkthroughs.com/deusex/hellskitchen1/DeusEx-2003-11-15-14-10-35-.jpg

There is a lot of truth to what he says, but he's still a tabloidist.

All news is tabloid business.

Why do we need someone telling us who the bad guys are in the first place? Isn't that a bad thing when we need someone else to think for us?

Alex Jones is just another false prophet, working FOR the government.

Yes he does give out good information and yes we dont need to look to him for everything to do with conspiracies.

But I think its ridiculous to call him a government agent, the ones that are government agents are probably the people who say the jews are behind everything.

Now that can discredit the type of stuff we talk about, alex doesnt, hes just real load and angry. You also have to admit, he wakes alot of people up to this stuff.

nescience
16th Apr 2008, 14:48
Yes he does give out good information and yes we dont need to look to him for everything to do with conspiracies.

But I think its ridiculous to call him a government agent, the ones that are government agents are probably the people who say the jews are behind everything.

Now that can discredit the type of stuff we talk about, alex doesnt, hes just real load and angry. You also have to admit, he wakes alot of people up to this stuff.

Where the hell did the "jews are behind everything" come from?

I swear, nearly every forum I post in someone ALWAYS tries to make it look like SOMEONE out there is "after the jews". So what if they were? It's not my responsibility to give a **** about the jews. you can only be responsible for yourself, that's it.

Why should I care if someone DOES say that "the jews are behind everything"? Why should I automatically think they're the bad guys just because they attack the jews?

It's funny how you're wiling to say that government agents are conspiring against the jews, but you know that sounds like a OWG (one world government) kind of conspiracy there.

If the American government hates the jews so much, why did Obama get to where he is today when his credentials are surpassed by even the most worthless presidential candidate - John Edwards? Obviously then, the government likes black people, but not... Jews? Why? Because they're Jewish? If anyone is against the jews it's probably for good reason, as many times as we're all told we're supposed to feel sorry for them because of everyone hating them!

Seriously man, give the anyone-who-criticizes-jews-is-a-nazi bull**** a rest. The government IS racist, but not against jews or blacks, it's against whites. I for one am tired of being labeled a ******* nazi JUST because I don't believe everything a jew does is good.

Besides, Hillary Rodham Clinton's birth name was Hilly Rothstein. She is in fact, jewish, and it's not like you can't tell that just by looking at her. She might win the race. Even Eisenhower and Rosevelt were Jewish! Seriously, if you are going to debate with me on this forum, you're going to have to drop the "everyone hates the jews" vibe I'm getting from you.

Alex Jones is liar and a smearer. The government of the USA is not racist against Jews, it's racist against whites. Alex Jones blames rich white 'elites' for this country's problems. You put 2 and 2 together.

Aminevo
16th Apr 2008, 15:13
Where the hell did the "jews are behind everything" come from?

I swear, nearly every forum I post in someone ALWAYS tries to make it look like SOMEONE out there is "after the jews". So what if they were? It's not my responsibility to give a **** about the jews. you can only be responsible for yourself, that's it.

Why should I care if someone DOES say that "the jews are behind everything"? Why should I automatically think they're the bad guys just because they attack the jews?

It's funny how you're wiling to say that government agents are conspiring against the jews, but you know that sounds like a OWG (one world government) kind of conspiracy there.

If the American government hates the jews so much, why did Obama get to where he is today when his credentials are surpassed by even the most worthless presidential candidate - John Edwards? Obviously then, the government likes black people, but not... Jews? Why? Because they're Jewish? If anyone is against the jews it's probably for good reason, as many times as we're all told we're supposed to feel sorry for them because of everyone hating them!

Seriously man, give the anyone-who-criticizes-jews-is-a-nazi bull**** a rest. The government IS racist, but not against jews or blacks, it's against whites. I for one am tired of being labeled a ******* nazi JUST because I don't believe everything a jew does is good.

Besides, Hillary Rodham Clinton's birth name was Hilly Rothstein. She is in fact, jewish, and it's not like you can't tell that just by looking at her. She might win the race. Even Eisenhower and Rosevelt were Jewish! Seriously, if you are going to debate with me on this forum, you're going to have to drop the "everyone hates the jews" vibe I'm getting from you.

Alex Jones is liar and a smearer. The government of the USA is not racist against Jews, it's racist against whites. Alex Jones blames rich white 'elites' for this country's problems. You put 2 and 2 together.

Hey buddy I didnt mean it in that way.

I meant some people who attack alex believe that the world conspiracy is made up of Zionist jews only.

There are real questions about it though like the israeli lobby and how much influence israel has on our nation.

Alex actually leans to the right and talks about white people not having enough babies compared to the third world populations which he is upset about so I think he does care about his race.

Aminevo
16th Apr 2008, 15:55
Revolution, flashmobs, and brain chips. A grim vision of the future.


Alan Watt on the subject of the article. Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4543855892537509598&q)

Richard Norton-Taylor
The Guardian,
Monday April 9 2007


Information chips implanted in the brain. Electromagnetic pulse weapons. The middle classes becoming revolutionary, taking on the role of Marx's proletariat. The population of countries in the Middle East increasing by 132%, while Europe's drops as fertility falls. "Flashmobs" - groups rapidly mobilised by criminal gangs or terrorists groups.

This is the world in 30 years' time envisaged by a Ministry of Defence team responsible for painting a picture of the "future strategic context" likely to face Britain's armed forces. It includes an "analysis of the key risks and shocks". Rear Admiral Chris Parry, head of the MoD's Development, Concepts & Doctrine Centre which drew up the report, describes the assessments as "probability-based, rather than predictive".

The 90-page report comments on widely discussed issues such as the growing economic importance of India and China, the militarisation of space, and even what it calls "declining news quality" with the rise of "internet-enabled, citizen-journalists" and pressure to release stories "at the expense of facts". It includes other, some frightening, some reassuring, potential developments that are not so often discussed.

New weapons

An electromagnetic pulse will probably become operational by 2035 able to destroy all communications systems in a selected area or be used against a "world city" such as an international business service hub. The development of neutron weapons which destroy living organs but not buildings "might make a weapon of choice for extreme ethnic cleansing in an increasingly populated world". The use of unmanned weapons platforms would enable the "application of lethal force without human intervention, raising consequential legal and ethical issues". The "explicit use" of chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear weapons and devices delivered by unmanned vehicles or missiles.

Technology

By 2035, an implantable "information chip" could be wired directly to the brain. A growing pervasiveness of information communications technology will enable states, terrorists or criminals, to mobilise "flashmobs", challenging security forces to match this potential agility coupled with an ability to concentrate forces quickly in a small area.

Marxism

"The middle classes could become a revolutionary class, taking the role envisaged for the proletariat by Marx," says the report. The thesis is based on a growing gap between the middle classes and the super-rich on one hand and an urban under-class threatening social order: "The world's middle classes might unite, using access to knowledge, resources and skills to shape transnational processes in their own class interest". Marxism could also be revived, it says, because of global inequality. An increased trend towards moral relativism and pragmatic values will encourage people to seek the "sanctuary provided by more rigid belief systems, including religious orthodoxy and doctrinaire political ideologies, such as popularism and Marxism".

Pressures leading to social unrest

By 2010 more than 50% of the world's population will be living in urban rather than rural environments, leading to social deprivation and "new instability risks", and the growth of shanty towns. By 2035, that figure will rise to 60%. Migration will increase. Globalisation may lead to levels of international integration that effectively bring inter-state warfare to an end. But it may lead to "inter-communal conflict" - communities with shared interests transcending national boundaries and resorting to the use of violence.

Population and Resources

The global population is likely to grow to 8.5bn in 2035, with less developed countries accounting for 98% of that. Some 87% of people under the age of 25 live in the developing world. Demographic trends, which will exacerbate economic and social tensions, have serious implications for the environment - including the provision of clean water and other resources - and for international relations. The population of sub-Saharan Africa will increase over the period by 81%, and that of Middle Eastern countries by 132%.

The Middle East

The massive population growth will mean the Middle East, and to a lesser extent north Africa, will remain highly unstable, says the report. It singles out Saudi Arabia, the most lucrative market for British arms, with unemployment levels of 20% and a "youth bulge" in a state whose population has risen from 7 million to 27 million since 1980. "The expectations of growing numbers of young people [in the whole region] many of whom will be confronted by the prospect of endemic unemployment ... are unlikely to be met," says the report.

Islamic militancy

Resentment among young people in the face of unrepresentative regimes "will find outlets in political militancy, including radical political Islam whose concept of Umma, the global Islamic community, and resistance to capitalism may lie uneasily in an international system based on nation-states and global market forces", the report warns. The effects of such resentment will be expressed through the migration of youth populations and global communications, encouraging contacts between diaspora communities and their countries of origin.

Tension between the Islamic world and the west will remain, and may increasingly be targeted at China "whose new-found materialism, economic vibrancy, and institutionalised atheism, will be an anathema to orthodox Islam".

Iran

Iran will steadily grow in economic and demographic strength and its energy reserves and geographic location will give it substantial strategic leverage. However, its government could be transformed. "From the middle of the period," says the report, "the country, especially its high proportion of younger people, will want to benefit from increased access to globalisation and diversity, and it may be that Iran progressively, but unevenly, transforms...into a vibrant democracy."

Terrorism

Casualties and the amount of damage inflicted by terrorism will stay low compared to other forms of coercion and conflict. But acts of extreme violence, supported by elements within Islamist states, with media exploitation to maximise the impact of the "theatre of violence" will persist. A "terrorist coalition", the report says, including a wide range of reactionary and revolutionary rejectionists such as ultra-nationalists, religious groupings and even extreme environmentalists, might conduct a global campaign of greater intensity".

Climate change

There is "compelling evidence" to indicate that climate change is occurring and that the atmosphere will continue to warm at an unprecedented rate throughout the 21st century. It could lead to a reduction in north Atlantic salinity by increasing the freshwater runoff from the Arctic. This could affect the natural circulation of the north Atlantic by diminishing the warming effect of ocean currents on western Europe. "The drop in temperature might exceed that of the miniature ice age of the 17th and 18th centuries."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/apr/09/frontpagenews.news

Aminevo
17th Apr 2008, 15:23
Why the future doesn't need us.

Our most powerful 21st-century technologies - robotics, genetic engineering, and nanotech - are threatening to make humans an endangered species.

By Bill Joy

Bill Joy, cofounder and Chief Scientist of Sun Microsystems, was cochair of the presidential commission on the future of IT research, and is coauthor of The Java Language Specification.



From the moment I became involved in the creation of new technologies, their ethical dimensions have concerned me, but it was only in the autumn of 1998 that I became anxiously aware of how great are the dangers facing us in the 21st century. I can date the onset of my unease to the day I met Ray Kurzweil, the deservedly famous inventor of the first reading machine for the blind and many other amazing things.

Ray and I were both speakers at George Gilder's Telecosm conference, and I encountered him by chance in the bar of the hotel after both our sessions were over. I was sitting with John Searle, a Berkeley philosopher who studies consciousness. While we were talking, Ray approached and a conversation began, the subject of which haunts me to this day.

I had missed Ray's talk and the subsequent panel that Ray and John had been on, and they now picked right up where they'd left off, with Ray saying that the rate of improvement of technology was going to accelerate and that we were going to become robots or fuse with robots or something like that, and John countering that this couldn't happen, because the robots couldn't be conscious.

While I had heard such talk before, I had always felt sentient robots were in the realm of science fiction. But now, from someone I respected, I was hearing a strong argument that they were a near-term possibility. I was taken aback, especially given Ray's proven ability to imagine and create the future. I already knew that new technologies like genetic engineering and nanotechnology were giving us the power to remake the world, but a realistic and imminent scenario for intelligent robots surprised me.

It's easy to get jaded about such breakthroughs. We hear in the news almost every day of some kind of technological or scientific advance. Yet this was no ordinary prediction. In the hotel bar, Ray gave me a partial preprint of his then-forthcoming bookThe Age of Spiritual Machines, which outlined a utopia he foresaw - one in which humans gained near immortality by becoming one with robotic technology. On reading it, my sense of unease only intensified; I felt sure he had to be understating the dangers, understating the probability of a bad outcome along this path.

I found myself most troubled by a passage detailing adystopian scenario:

THE NEW LUDDITE CHALLENGE

First let us postulate that the computer scientists succeed in developing intelligent machines that can do all things better than human beings can do them. In that case presumably all work will be done by vast, highly organized systems of machines and no human effort will be necessary. Either of two cases might occur. The machines might be permitted to make all of their own decisions without human oversight, or else human control over the machines might be retained.

If the machines are permitted to make all their own decisions, we can't make any conjectures as to the results, because it is impossible to guess how such machines might behave. We only point out that the fate of the human race would be at the mercy of the machines. It might be argued that the human race would never be foolish enough to hand over all the power to the machines. But we are suggesting neither that the human race would voluntarily turn power over to the machines nor that the machines would willfully seize power. What we do suggest is that the human race might easily permit itself to drift into a position of such dependence on the machines that it would have no practical choice but to accept all of the machines' decisions. As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide.

On the other hand it is possible that human control over the machines may be retained. In that case the average man may have control over certain private machines of his own, such as his car or his personal computer, but control over large systems of machines will be in the hands of a tiny elite - just as it is today, but with two differences. Due to improved techniques the elite will have greater control over the masses; and because human work will no longer be necessary the masses will be superfluous, a useless burden on the system. If the elite is ruthless they may simply decide to exterminate the mass of humanity. If they are humane they may use propaganda or other psychological or biological techniques to reduce the birth rate until the mass of humanity becomes extinct, leaving the world to the elite. Or, if the elite consists of soft-hearted liberals, they may decide to play the role of good shepherds to the rest of the human race. They will see to it that everyone's physical needs are satisfied, that all children are raised under psychologically hygienic conditions, that everyone has a wholesome hobby to keep him busy, and that anyone who may become dissatisfied undergoes "treatment" to cure his "problem." Of course, life will be so purposeless that people will have to be biologically or psychologically engineered either to remove their need for the power process or make them "sublimate" their drive for power into some harmless hobby. These engineered human beings may be happy in such a society, but they will most certainly not be free. They will have been reduced to the status of domestic animals.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html

Aminevo
18th Apr 2008, 14:29
What does Christianity, 911 and The Federal Reserve all have in common?

Zeitgeist (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197)

Dead-Eye
20th Apr 2008, 10:35
After watching that video I could see one major flaw in it and although allot of facts in there are indeed facts that I can recall from history. (German scientist worked for the US after the war, nuclear testing on solders, etc...) The major flaw was that a synthetic market of robot workers completely destroys the need for human slaves. And if there is nano technology in this future I'm sure there would be robots. Also If there were such an organization like this that worked with all the heads of nations, someone would have brought that up. Not to mention that china's market is only tolerated because there is no solution 'yet' to human workers building all the crap we in the US consume.

But it is a good idea to take a look at the video for ideas on developing the plot, it kinda sums Deus Ex's story up. Pulse the illuminate are kinda old, bilderberg sounds cooler.

Aminevo
20th Apr 2008, 13:33
After watching that video I could see one major flaw in it and although allot of facts in there are indeed facts that I can recall from history. (German scientist worked for the US after the war, nuclear testing on solders, etc...) The major flaw was that a synthetic market of robot workers completely destroys the need for human slaves. And if there is nano technology in this future I'm sure there would be robots. Also If there were such an organization like this that worked with all the heads of nations, someone would have brought that up. Not to mention that china's market is only tolerated because there is no solution 'yet' to human workers building all the crap we in the US consume.

But it is a good idea to take a look at the video for ideas on developing the plot, it kinda sums Deus Ex's story up. Pulse the illuminate are kinda old, bilderberg sounds cooler.

Yeah thats actually a good point.

Guess we will have to be killed off.

Aminevo
26th Apr 2008, 16:53
""Determined to find the law that requires American citizens to pay income tax, producer Aaron Russo ("The Rose," "Trading Places") set out on a journey to find the evidence. This film which is neither left, nor right-wing is a startling examination of government. It exposes the systematic erosion of civil liberties in America since 1913 when the Federal Reserve system was fraudulently created. Through interviews with U.S. Congressmen, a former IRS Commissioner, former IRS and FBI agents and tax attorneys and authors, Russo connects the dots between money creation, federal income tax, and the national identity card which becomes law in May 2008. This ID card will use Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) chips which are essentially homing devices used to track people. This film shows in great detail and undeniable facts that America is moving headlong into a fascist police state.""

America Freedom to Fascism (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173)

Aminevo
28th Apr 2008, 21:09
Building Gods. Robots Cyborgs God Soul Immortality

Where is humanity heading? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1079797626827646234)



Building Gods film website. (http://www.buildinggods.com/)