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Sushi...Scientist
14th Feb 2008, 16:52
We can see in Deus ex 1 if we talk to Jock in the Hell's Kitcheon bar that the black helicopters are run by the NSA to support operations and used by the CIA and others. Are the black helicopter pilots however to have been all NSA operatives who work on loan to other agencies such as UNATCO or the CIA? Is Jock an NSA pilot or rather a former NSA agent? Does the NSA simply moniter the project and loan out the black helicopters? It is feasible that Jock be an NSA pilot on loan to area 51in his past because the NSA is there for security. Could Daedalus, who was involved in Jock's status and capable of involving Jock for Jc's escape from UNATCO have been an NSA agent? Could Ava Johnson or rather Sid Black have been NSA operative people commited to the old ways of America? It wasn't quite like Tracer Tong to believe Ava was simply an AI construct as he didn't believe it of Daedalus. And finally will the NSA be explored in Deus ex 3?

gamer0004
14th Feb 2008, 18:36
We can see in Deus ex 1 if we talk to Jock in the Hell's Kitcheon bar that the black helicopters are run by the NSA to support operations and used by the CIA and others. Are the black helicopter pilots however to have been all NSA operatives who work on loan to other agencies such as UNATCO or the CIA? Is Jock an NSA pilot or rather a former NSA agent? Does the NSA simply moniter the project and loan out the black helicopters? It is feasible that Jock be an NSA pilot on loan to area 51in his past because the NSA is there for security. Could Daedalus, who was involved in Jock's status and capable of involving Jock for Jc's escape from UNATCO have been an NSA agent? Could Ava Johnson or rather Sid Black have been NSA operative people commited to the old ways of America? It wasn't quite like Tracer Tong to believe Ava was simply an AI construct as he didn't believe it of Daedalus. And finally will the NSA be explored in Deus ex 3?

I believe Jock was hired by the government to fly at Area-51. Whether he was working for the NSA we do not know. We do know that he was chosen because he can keep his mouth shut.

Daedalus was a computer AI which was hacked by Icarus. A person can't be hacked, can he?

Ava was programmed/made by Tong himself. So yes, that's an AI construct too.

Sid doesn't look or act like a (former) agent, so I don't think so. I don't think that's known for sure, though.

We have no idea what will be explored in DX3 and what not.

Sushi...Scientist
14th Feb 2008, 18:53
Generally hackers have always often thought to actually call a victim. They claim to be insurance a technician or other entity to learn about the set up etc it's called social engineering. Daedalus can still be thought of as human if we consider that he might have worked for a secret sub agency which may have gotten the order to stand down from up top as a new directive came in. Daedalus may have been traced and murdered by MJ12 or other Icarus aligned forces and Helios may indeed have subsequently murdered Icarus. I can't fathom any reason to see that Daedalus and Icarus couldn't have learned to get along with a little evidence imparted by Icarus or from the orders of another black agency with powers similar to FEMA. Finally when entering Manderley's office Mr Manderley can be seen making a comment along the lines of "I can't just control a man's mind!". That's a moralistic statement about what is available and approapriate. I wouldn't attribute either man to humour.

gamer0004
14th Feb 2008, 19:48
To put it like this: Daedalus merged with the MJ12 AI. A normal person simply CAN'T merge with an AI, especially not over the NET.

Sushi...Scientist
14th Feb 2008, 20:12
JC's clearance was Angel/OA. Even after going rogue Paul wouldnt tell JC everything stating he would need God clearance to know in one instance. What we might never know is what happens above such clearance in general as it is never explained to us what the standard procedure for handling clearance actually is. I assume JC isn't of sufficient clearance (being only Angel/OA) to know anything else of the actual Daedalus deception. Deception is seen right through the game with newspaper reports stating things such as the apollo moon landing was a hoax. Generally i don't think they make a brief attempt at a lie before going oops we quit, even though your Angel/OA cleared and not being promoted or obeying orders, feel free to take a look around as someone other then yourself. Daedalus may even have died from a Kill Switch.

Angel/0A
14th Feb 2008, 20:54
Daedalus, Icarus, and Helios are all AIs. Helios was the result of the merger between Icarus and Daedalus, as facilitated by accessing the milnet at Vandenberg.

It was never written or scripted that Daedalus was or had a human component. Daedalus was originally an AI under control of Everett, and then later Page and MJ12, that rebelled once it identified MJ12 was basically a terrorist organization like the ones it was meant to search for.

There was no killswitch, otherwise wouldn't it have been possible to "kill" Daedalus much sooner than by the time JC reached X-51? And that statement Manderley made was directly in reference to JC (maybe Paul too), not Daedalus. JC only thinks Daedalus is a hacker, like Alex Jacobson, because he knows Alex possesses some capabilities, but Alex quickly debunks that theory when JC talks to him after escaping the MJ12 facility below UNATCO. It's a creative interpretation, but incorrect.

The final nail: http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/april02/dxbible/dx3/index2.shtm

Sushi...Scientist
14th Feb 2008, 21:26
Well, Alex often handles agents cleared beyond JC i assume. Daedalus i believe involved JC upon his first message in the cell that he could only shut down power to the cell for a short time or he would be detected. He would have concealed himself with proxy disguises such as perhaps all of the Daedalus internet regions. However it was mentioned when infiltrating the Universal Constructor at Versalife Hong Kong that Daedalus was the alias of some kind of governmental cell i think performing a project or experiment(?). It isn't that far fetched that an ex-agent from daedalus or perhaps an agent who was merely naming himself after those people have been the culprit. Tracer Tong is himself after all someone perhaps just wealthy and powerful tp have such rights. After all the Grey Death virus was created by Versalife covertly, theres no reason to totally rule out that Daedalus isn't an AI. Why Daedalus couldn't have been the thief Shannon who we might know broke into the Satcom tent outside UNATCO, breaking into Alex's office where she keeps money hidden under the floor boards and perhaps taking on Daedalus as a name to intervene as a mole from perhaps China is beyond me.

Angel/0A
14th Feb 2008, 22:02
Um, did you even bother looking at the link? Otherwise I'm not sure what you're claiming beyond that most everyone who's played the game has misunderstood what Daedalus is. You don't seem to have read/understood my post either. :\

Sushi...Scientist
14th Feb 2008, 22:18
In roleplaying generally one plays the game in character. It's a roleplay. On the back of the Deus Ex CD Case you can see in big writing the phrase "Question Everything, Trust Noone." Daedalus is something to be questioned indeed and i doubt trusting Alex or Daedalus is truly worthwhile. That's why we can do something other then a Helios or Illuminatii ending by causing a dark age, which is essentially JC's reaction as can be seen in Deus Ex Invisible War. Yes Angel/OA ive seen the link before but i doubt the author has read and understood the back of the CD case or understood the concept of roleplaying. Yes i am aware JC can be played anyway one likes. Further more there is no evidence that the real JC is in Invisible War if Alex's birthdate in the cloning tank at Area 51 is different then Invisible War or did you learn from the CD case too? There is no evidence JC could possibly merge with Daedalus present in Deus Ex Invisible War and we are to understand he and the rest of Apostlecore are madmen if we are to believe Chad Dumier.

Angel/0A
14th Feb 2008, 22:36
Yes Angel/OA ive seen the link before but i doubt the author has read and understood the back of the CD case or understood the concept of roleplaying.

So, the fact that the DX development team wrote it means that the makers of the game don't understand the concept of roleplaying, yet they created the game in question? :\

Sushi...Scientist
14th Feb 2008, 23:02
I wouldn't attribute Harvey Smith with the creation of Daedalus. Not in the slightest. Game designing certainly isn't my career path but i believe he has little to do with plot and continuity.

Angel/0A
14th Feb 2008, 23:34
I wouldn't attribute Harvey Smith with the creation of Daedalus. Not in the slightest. Game designing certainly isn't my career path but i believe he has little to do with plot and continuity.

You act as if Harvey Smith were the only to have worked on the document. Never mind the rest of the team then, eh?


Harvey: I think most of the Bible was originally our actual design doc... team collaboration.

Sushi...Scientist
15th Feb 2008, 01:54
Ive never seen anything published regarding the Deus Ex development team actually being the creators of all this? I wonder what Johnny Woo and Warren Spector at Disney actually do?

Sushi...Scientist
15th Feb 2008, 02:10
GameSpy Sheldon Pacotti was Deus Ex's writer. Is the Bible all his work and, if not, how was it developed and written?

Harvey: I think most of the Bible was originally our actual design doc... team collaboration.

Sheldon: Virtually none of the Bible is my work. I joined the company long after preproduction. It was the document I studied in preparing to write the dialogue for the game.

No reason to take this at face value. Does anyone know who's IP Deus ex originally was?

Angel/0A
15th Feb 2008, 03:41
GameSpy Sheldon Pacotti was Deus Ex's writer. Is the Bible all his work and, if not, how was it developed and written?

Harvey: I think most of the Bible was originally our actual design doc... team collaboration.

Sheldon: Virtually none of the Bible is my work. I joined the company long after preproduction. It was the document I studied in preparing to write the dialogue for the game.
No reason to take this at face value. Does anyone know who's IP Deus ex originally was?

No reason to take what at face value, that Sheldon Pacotti didn't work on the DX Bible, or that Harvey Smith, lead designer for Deus Ex, states that it was based off the original design document that the team collaborated on?

Maybe you ought to read this as well (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20001206/spector_01.htm). But, does it really matter "who's IP Deus Ex originally was?" Does it make any difference in terms of credibility, whether the lead designer of Deus Ex or the "original owner of the intellectual property that is Deus Ex" says something? You're shooting down everything in disagreement, even statements by people who made the game.

Sushi...Scientist
15th Feb 2008, 04:34
Im a fan of the original TSR where Warren Spector used to work and not these people who are yet to disclose their true involvement in this black operation that had been Ion Storm. The name is Scientist **** and acknowledging those men as sensible speakers when we havn't the foggiest clue about what on earth has gone in their offices other then pizza and good times (those conjured understandings are how we are to react arn't they?) is beyond me. There kids.