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pistolpete_1980
13th Feb 2008, 09:58
Edios REad this all the way through if you want to make a great game!

I was very disapointed that the devolopers didnt explore the idea of the different endings the player could have chosen in deus ex 1..... what they did was choose one ending and canonized that.... and it wasnt even the ending i chose....

We'll in my opinion this defeats the purpose of choosing an ending in part 1...they might as well not even allowed the player to choose!!

How to correct the problem. What should be done is allow the player to hop alternate realities in the next instalment of Deus Ex. Where each reality is far different the the next due to the choice the player made in the previous game.

What Deus ex 2 should haev been was an exploration of the futures of each of the choices the player had in Part 1! and to see how your desicion affected history!

Now,.....this would be very rewarding to the player of the first game, because we would all get the see the consequences of our ultimate choices from the previous game affect the distant future! then we could be like.... "wow what a mess I made!"

How cool would It be to visit a location and see how your desicion affected how the city physically looks? Imagine exploring NY where it is run down and violent, and then hop realities where NY is a booming metropolis!

or a reality where paul is alive and another where you failed to keep him alive?

Or having a conversation with a a homeless guy grumbling about how he would change things if he were in power in one reality, and then in another reality he is a powerful politician that actually did what he said he would do?!

Basically have a different universe for each of the choices that could have been made in part 1. and we can move between them.

What do the fans think?

gamer0004
13th Feb 2008, 14:39
I think that the system in DX1 worked great because it was all about thinking for yourself, and not so much as doing something that would be good to YOU, but to the earth and all the people around.

Besides that, I think that a game in which you can choose what ending you chose in the last game is great BUT that it's very hard to implement this in a right way. Either they spend years to get it right or they'll stick to the plan and the story becomes like the DXIW story: because every single map must be used in the game, depending on your choices you get to do something else in the same map. And that doen't make the game more convincing...
Imagine that that was possible in DX. If you'd stick with UNATCO you'd have to fight Paul or something? That's not really cool, especially because once he's death there is nothing to do for you anymore. So they'd have go come up with other maps in which you can do both the things for UNATCO and NSF (or MJ-12 and the Triads or X-51 and so on), which is no good.

pistolpete_1980
13th Feb 2008, 19:58
I think that the system in DX1 worked great because it was all about thinking for yourself, and not so much as doing something that would be good to YOU, but to the earth and all the people around.

Besides that, I think that a game in which you can choose what ending you chose in the last game is great BUT that it's very hard to implement this in a right way. Either they spend years to get it right or they'll stick to the plan and the story becomes like the DXIW story: because every single map must be used in the game, depending on your choices you get to do something else in the same map. And that doen't make the game more convincing...
Imagine that that was possible in DX. If you'd stick with UNATCO you'd have to fight Paul or something? That's not really cool, especially because once he's death there is nothing to do for you anymore. So they'd have go come up with other maps in which you can do both the things for UNATCO and NSF (or MJ-12 and the Triads or X-51 and so on), which is no good.

I do not believe you read my post all the way through, or understood it.

I was not implying have each choice explored in the same game.

What I was saying was have each choice that could have been made for the ending of each Deus Ex 1... Explored in Part 2 or 3...

So if you chose the merging with helios in part 1... then Part 2 would have an alternate reality with that. Then you could somhow jump to another reality in which you chose to destory helios, and see how the universe was affected by that choice....

Basically what im saying is that each choice that could hav ebeen made in part 1 , should be explored in the sequel...

Get it???

Lo Bruto
13th Feb 2008, 21:13
I would like to see a sequel that takes place in Tong's Dark Age, all the thing he said... living in City-state-like governments, an age of crafstmen... no conspirators, no AIs...
sweet... my favorite ending

pistolpete_1980
13th Feb 2008, 23:40
I would like to see a sequel that takes place in Tong's Dark Age, all the thing he said... living in City-state-like governments, an age of crafstmen... no conspirators, no AIs...
sweet... my favorite ending

Exactly! we should be able to see all possibilities in the sequel!

O.m.a.r
14th Feb 2008, 00:29
I had that idea once, but you have to realize that it would nearly impossible to create one game that could support four different outcomes from the last game's endings. They only way it could work was if there would be four different games. Not every cost effective for any game company; Melding the endings was the only way the games could work.

pistolpete_1980
14th Feb 2008, 01:06
That is not true at all... It might in fact actually be more cost effective.

You could have the player not have to go to as many different location, but the same location in different realities. and this would be far more interesting to see how each ending affected the physical location.

You could use the sam ebasic template for each location for each reality, use the same basic template for each characters models and voices.

But in the end, this would be far more interesting.


I had that idea once, but you have to realize that it would nearly impossible to create one game that could support four different outcomes from the last game's endings. They only way it could work was if there would be four different games. Not every cost effective for any game company; Melding the endings was the only way the games could work.

gamer0004
14th Feb 2008, 18:29
I had that idea once, but you have to realize that it would nearly impossible to create one game that could support four different outcomes from the last game's endings. They only way it could work was if there would be four different games. Not every cost effective for any game company; Melding the endings was the only way the games could work.

That is what I wanted to say.

@pistolpete_1980
And like I said (or like I wanted to say): there are 4 possibilities.
1. They pick an ending and base the game on that one.
2. They try to combine all endings (as in DX:IW). That doesn't make the story line very convincing.
3. They give you the option to select one of the four (or three in case of DX1) possible endings and make a complete different game for each ending, which would cost an awful lot of time and money. This is, however, the only option which would please all the fans, but it is not going to happen and I don't think we would want to wait that long :D
4. They give you the option to select one of the four (three) endings but in order to save time and money (which would be necessary) they would have to use all the maps for all the games. That is what you suggested, I think.
This would fail, because using the same maps for completely different goals and situations. They did this in DX:IW. Not that you were able to choose which ending you'd want your game to be based on, but you were completely able to choose what you'd want to do. Work for the WTO or the Order? Or for the Templars?
That sounds great, but they can't make different maps for all your choices. So whatever you'd do, you would go to the same place anyway. Which is not very realistic because IRL only a few of your goals are conflicting, and almost none are both conflicting and have to be solved at the same place. Which is what you'd get if they try to give you the possibility to choose your favorite ending on which the story will be based..
Get it? ;)

pistolpete_1980
14th Feb 2008, 23:26
4. They give you the option to select one of the four (three) endings but in order to save time and money (which would be necessary) they would have to use all the maps for all the games. That is what you suggested, I think.
This would fail, because using the same maps for completely different goals and situations. They did this in DX:IW. Not that you were able to choose which ending you'd want your game to be based on, but you were completely able to choose what you'd want to do. Work for the WTO or the Order? Or for the Templars?
That sounds great, but they can't make different maps for all your choices. So whatever you'd do, you would go to the same place anyway. Which is not very realistic because IRL only a few of your goals are conflicting, and almost none are both conflicting and have to be solved at the same place. Which is what you'd get if they try to give you the possibility to choose your favorite ending on which the story will be based..
Get it? ;)

First There are not only 4 possibilities on how they could do this.. There are virtually no limitations to how they can proceed with this, they can do it in ways you or I haev never thought of. So do not put limitations on something like that

Second That is NOT what I suggested.... maybe I am not making myself clear?

My Idea asumes that all possible choices for an ending where chosen in part 1. Each of the four(three) decisions that JC could have made in Part 1 created an alternate reality. Thus we have three or 4 realities

So in the next instalment Of deus ex. Give the player the ability to explore these alternate realities where JC made each decision. to see how each decision affected the future either for the good or bad. Of course each reality would have their pros and cons.

So to make things extra clear for you

Mission1 NY- takes place 20 years after JC choose to merge with helios.
Mission2 NY - Have the player hop to an alternate NY 20 years after Jc chose to destroy helios

So the player can really see how his decision affected the future!

O.m.a.r
14th Feb 2008, 23:39
I understand what you are saying, but I believe that seems more like an expansion then a game. Deus 3 shouldn’t be a recap of the previous games; it should be it's own game with it's own story that’s history were Deus 1 & 2. Now this is a great idea, but I believe it would be more effective as maybe a set of books. A book that shows the different outcomes of Deus Ex 1 & 2. :)

pistolpete_1980
15th Feb 2008, 03:01
I understand what you are saying, but I believe that seems more like an expansion then a game. Deus 3 shouldn’t be a recap of the previous games; it should be it's own game with it's own story that’s history were Deus 1 & 2. Now this is a great idea, but I believe it would be more effective as maybe a set of books. A book that shows the different outcomes of Deus Ex 1 & 2. :)

Wrong again...
who said recap? a whole new story, whole new adventure. you are able to explore different versions of the future based on the final decisions made in the previous, that doesnt make it a recap. Seems to be very hard to make things clear enough for people to understand.

pistolpete_1980
15th Feb 2008, 03:05
I should have made my first posts more clear, apparently there was a show out called sliders.

And these characters basically slide through different realities. sometimes they would be in a universe where the nazis won the war. or a universe where the titanic didnt sink. ect ect. and they basically visited each one.

This is kinda what i was thinking, except each reality would be where JC made a decision at a critical point in history.

mr_cyberpunk
15th Feb 2008, 03:29
I think any thread starting with "Read this if you want to make a good game" is a joke. Honestly did ANYONE here go to university and studied game design? nope, so stop making suggestions that you have no authority on.

/end rant.

gamer0004
15th Feb 2008, 11:57
First There are not only 4 possibilities on how they could do this.. There are virtually no limitations to how they can proceed with this, they can do it in ways you or I haev never thought of. So do not put limitations on something like that

Second That is NOT what I suggested.... maybe I am not making myself clear?

My Idea asumes that all possible choices for an ending where chosen in part 1. Each of the four(three) decisions that JC could have made in Part 1 created an alternate reality. Thus we have three or 4 realities

So in the next instalment Of deus ex. Give the player the ability to explore these alternate realities where JC made each decision. to see how each decision affected the future either for the good or bad. Of course each reality would have their pros and cons.

So to make things extra clear for you

Mission1 NY- takes place 20 years after JC choose to merge with helios.
Mission2 NY - Have the player hop to an alternate NY 20 years after Jc chose to destroy helios

So the player can really see how his decision affected the future!

Please don't go tell me what I should do and what not.

The four options I told are the only ones possible in case of a sequel to DX1, which is what you are talking about.
I understand exactly what you are saying. You want the player to be able to explore the alternate realities depending on which ending they chose or would choose at the end of the first game.
Like I said, to get that right they'd have to make 4 completely different realities, which would cost an enormous amount of time and money. They are not going to do that, because they don't HAVE the time or money. It would be cool but it's simply not feasible.
If they wouldn't want to waste time and money on that, but would want the player to be able to choose the ending the game is based on, then they'd have to use the maps for every different reality/story.
For instance, they would use the Hong Kong map for a mission for Helios, but in the different reality in which you sided with the Illuminaty the same map would have to be used. But the world would (should) be completety different depending on your choice. So it wouldn't feel like you are in a different reality based on your choice.

pistolpete_1980
15th Feb 2008, 18:16
Please don't go tell me what I should do and what not.

The four options I told are the only ones possible in case of a sequel to DX1, which is what you are talking about.
I understand exactly what you are saying. You want the player to be able to explore the alternate realities depending on which ending they chose or would choose at the end of the first game.
Like I said, to get that right they'd have to make 4 completely different realities, which would cost an enormous amount of time and money. They are not going to do that, because they don't HAVE the time or money. It would be cool but it's simply not feasible.
If they wouldn't want to waste time and money on that, but would want the player to be able to choose the ending the game is based on, then they'd have to use the maps for every different reality/story.
For instance, they would use the Hong Kong map for a mission for Helios, but in the different reality in which you sided with the Illuminaty the same map would have to be used. But the world would (should) be completety different depending on your choice. So it wouldn't feel like you are in a different reality based on your choice.

Bingo! Thats it...

Although I know it wont be done... I still think it is feasible, in fact even more cost effective.

Later!

Angel/0A
15th Feb 2008, 20:40
Bingo! Thats it...

Although I know it wont be done... I still think it is feasible, in fact even more cost effective.
I don't see how it is even remotely more cost-effective to quadruple your workload with nothing else to gain. You act as if it's normal to make 3 games in addition to DX3. Peter Jackson doing the filming for the LOTR trilogy all at once is one thing, but even LOTR was released in separate pieces, not immediately as one giant package. Unless even you go as far as to suggest Eidos Montreal also quadruples the retail price for DX3, there's no increase in "cost-effectiveness"... <.< :\

gamer0004 already mentioned that while they could go as far as making 4 different games for the different endings, it would take a much longer time.

pistolpete_1980
15th Feb 2008, 21:16
I don't see how it is even remotely more cost-effective to quadruple your workload with nothing else to gain. You act as if it's normal to make 3 games in addition to DX3. Peter Jackson doing the filming for the LOTR trilogy all at once is one thing, but even LOTR was released in separate pieces, not immediately as one giant package. Unless even you go as far as to suggest Eidos Montreal also quadruples the retail price for DX3, there's no increase in "cost-effectiveness"... <.< :\

gamer0004 already mentioned that while they could go as far as making 4 different games for the different endings, it would take a much longer time.

How would that be quadroping your workload! there are a ton of ways you could do this without making the game bigger then nessesary. You guys really lack imagination!

Once Again It wont happen but one way to do it. Instead of having 10 or more different locations you can have 3 main giant locations and visit the different realities at those locations! In fact it could up up being more cost effective...

You have 3-4 basic templates of cities, all you would have to do is just make them look a little (or alot) different depending on which universe you are in???

you would still haev the same amount of mission, just not spanned accross so many different locations. alot would be the same location just different reality..

Anyway, I'm done posting I think I've explained this idea enough.. I just wanted to toss the idea out there.

Angel/0A
15th Feb 2008, 21:21
Once Again It wont happen but one way to do it. Instead of having 10 or more different locations you can have 3 main giant locations and visit the different realities at those locations! In fact it could up up being more cost effective...

You have 3-4 basic templates of cities, all you would have to do is just make them look a little (or alot) different depending on which universe you are in???

you would still haev the same amount of mission, just not spanned accross so many different locations. alot would be the same location just different reality..

You create a "reality" or setting each time you make a game, so creating a new setting four times over is not much different from creating 4 games. They still have to put the effort into creating those different universes. The only thing that remains similar is perhaps the core gameplay, but if you look at say the Dark Age ending versus the Helios ending, you might not even have augmentations in the Dark Age ending, so what's to say the core gameplay is similar there. Characters, items, environments, would all be different. If it were that easy to create multiple universes for games wouldn't you see it far more often than you do currently?

wusischman
15th Feb 2008, 21:52
hello guys,
i think you approach the problem from the wrong side :

on the one hand, these game designers have to create many "boring" stuff like the whole scenerie (geographie of the world) and they have to combine it with the right textures and sounds and music to create a game's typical mood.

on the other hand, there is the story, which was the really strong thing in DE 1, because of not only the many choices you could make, but also the many hidden hints that made all the persons mentioned seem, like they had a real live with families, . . .

and i think this is really the (i call it) "magic" of such games - to give the player the oppurtunity to think further to each direction, by not giving too much information at the same time (so the player's phantasy makes the real background)

as for your sicussion i have to say, that it'd be very tempting to play ALL the possible results in one game, but because of the time- and budget-pressure, that all developers face nowadays, there would be only a very thin story for each of the realities.

the dilemma of DE 2:IW was the copy/paste-attitude, which led to a fade duplicate of thief (with an little satisfying story for DE1-fans), and also that they directly choose one ending.

in my opinion, the solution would have been to let the player think further each of the 3(4) possible ends on his own and choose a neutral/independant storyline for the sequel (maybe in the same time or even before, perhaps a very far future) - but also creating the special mood of the whole surrounding world to be alive

shortly said : i think a brilliant work should be left on its own, not trying to abuse the characters for a poor 2nd part

so, instead of argueing, how many different areas or storylines there should be, play the game another time and think it to an end on its own
the story-solution, the designers of a 3rd part may offer, can only disappoint the imagination of real DE-fans
what do you think?

GruntOwner
25th Feb 2008, 23:01
You will have to forgive my bluntness, bbut I'm too tired to think of a nicer way to put this.
That idea of reality hopping is awful, Deus Ex was deep and involving, it's not going to be very involving if shortly after rescuing X, striving through Y, all for my goal of peace/wealth, I might kinda lose the feeling if I find myself dumped in the middle of an alternate reality where X dosn't exist, or is completely different making it impossible for me to relate him to the X i knew, or Y is nothing like I remember, making my whole struggle futile. It would kill the atmosphere. Kill it with fire and eat its skin. Deus Ex was involving because I could play it hours on end, in the mindset of what I wanted to do, how I was going to do it, and What might transpire next. That would not have happened if shortly after meeting Paul outside the 747 and killing navara, I found myself in the middle of a nano holocaust because the templars got a tad excited. I would have gone from "christ, this is bad, what am I gunna do? I just killed one of the most respected mech augmented agents in UNATCO" to "Oh, this one, time for another modular level, which in it self is practically a contridiction of Deus Ex. It might make an OK game with anything else, but it would ruin Deus Ex.
Financially, it sucks. Deus Ex wise, it sucks, any other game, it might work, though it's hardly original, it has been done before and if a game didn't include it then there was a very good reason for it... usually.

lightbringerrr
2nd Mar 2008, 07:44
Edios REad this all the way through if you want to make a great game!

I was very disapointed that the devolopers didnt explore the idea of the different endings the player could have chosen in deus ex 1..... what they did was choose one ending and canonized that.... and it wasnt even the ending i chose....

We'll in my opinion this defeats the purpose of choosing an ending in part 1...they might as well not even allowed the player to choose!!

How to correct the problem. What should be done is allow the player to hop alternate realities in the next instalment of Deus Ex. Where each reality is far different the the next due to the choice the player made in the previous game.

What Deus ex 2 should haev been was an exploration of the futures of each of the choices the player had in Part 1! and to see how your desicion affected history!

Now,.....this would be very rewarding to the player of the first game, because we would all get the see the consequences of our ultimate choices from the previous game affect the distant future! then we could be like.... "wow what a mess I made!"

How cool would It be to visit a location and see how your desicion affected how the city physically looks? Imagine exploring NY where it is run down and violent, and then hop realities where NY is a booming metropolis!

or a reality where paul is alive and another where you failed to keep him alive?

Or having a conversation with a a homeless guy grumbling about how he would change things if he were in power in one reality, and then in another reality he is a powerful politician that actually did what he said he would do?!

Basically have a different universe for each of the choices that could have been made in part 1. and we can move between them.

What do the fans think?

I appreciate where you're coming from, I truly do. But let me paint for you how DX2 would have gone down had the developers done what you're asking for:

DX2.
Release date: 2006.
MSRP: $199.99

Anarky
2nd Mar 2008, 17:17
I think there are only 2 realists possibilities:

- The story take place before Deus Ex 1

- The story take place maybe 200 years after Invisible War

jake_y
7th Mar 2008, 23:20
The idea is bad , I dont like it .

The choices ( most usable ones, yes there is infinitive choices , but only a few are usable ok? ) are imo- it starts after deus ex 1 and -

Starts after denton merges with helios - not the best one , but it is what would probably happen . If you had the choice to become a "god" like this , would you not accept it? Unless the person is completely stupid and without morality , I would preffer him over some iluminati guys. If you would actually be intelligent and hard working as an agent who manages to do everything he wants , dont you think it would be better if you ruled the world ? Thought its what would probably happen , I cant see much of what would be happening , maybe denton goes mad due to the power and you need to stop him ? very unoriginal ...

Starts with illuminati ending - perhaps they split and fight each other ?Or one joins with another to get rid of the rest? Or they just stick together and are tyrants ? This seems quite good to me.

Starts at dark age - I always found this ending really stupid since in time , there will be people who will want to get power . You cant take electricity from the world , in time it would reapper , and it would be the whole thing all over again , going back into the past wont solve anything , unless you do something different this time - playing as jc denton again , against some New evil guy who wants to take over the planet ... like I said its not very likely that this would happen imo , but gameplay it wouldnt be bad , just very unoriginal .


Therefore , linking to the illuminati ending would be the best I would say .

c37579
25th Mar 2008, 22:20
I think there are only 2 realists possibilities:

- The story take place before Deus Ex 1

- The story take place maybe 200 years after Invisible War

there is also a third possibility ;)

playing at the same time as deus ex, but from a different persons point of view, althought this wouldnt be too good :P

Kevyne-Shandris
26th Mar 2008, 03:37
there is also a third possibility ;)

playing at the same time as deus ex, but from a different persons point of view, althought this wouldnt be too good :P

Or just add another level immediately after the ending, and continue from there.

Make it a game before the New Beginning began (call it a commercial break, for a lack of a better way to describe it), so not even needing to use any ending.

This will allow players to even return to the DX1 world (naturally revamped to 2008 standards), and also to new locations.

DX3 doesn't have to start with any of the endings to connect. Connection can be players can return to the Underworld Bar (as cheesy as that background soundtrack is, yes, I liked it) and beyond.

We can almost all admit we want something of the past DX with the new in DX3. I feel that's only possible if we never left the time period itself. Alternative realities will spoil the immersion factor. When Tracer Tong came back with the virus, and was told to stay back hopefully to get some treatment, do you remember that level and it's scenery of the dusk sky (that scene I'll never forget, like mankind is about to sink into night), the vastness, the gloominess, the feeling of apprehension, sorrow and thinking what next? I stood there looking at the sky for a long time, as I felt like I NEEDED to ponder what will occur next. Flipping through dimensions and alternative realities will be pushing me, where I want to pause to THINK, and would ruin my own moment of DEEP immersion.

Deus Ex success is that many people got something out of the game. Not everyone being pushed, prodded and forced to a very narrow linear path as quickly as possible (nor suffer from strobed flashbacks). If I wanted to stare at the night sky for an hour, that would be my option; where another wanting to hitch the next flight out the fastest, their bag. What's important is that the individual isn't lost to his own THINKING of the moment. The element of time is in the player's control, not the unseen but felt time clock.

dimaf1985
26th Mar 2008, 08:42
Ya the alternate reality thing is not only impractical in terms of budget but it's too sci-fi. Bad idea, end of discussion.

Two things would work for the story. Either a prequel or sequel idea that i cooked up. I dont know if any of you have seen the Saw movies but i think that in DX3 they could definitely use the trick that the Saw movies used. The way the story was told was through a series of or seemingly random and unrelated events. Then it was revealed at the very end that these were events that were actually all strategically planned out and set in motion to cause ONE specific outcome. Um, also kinda like Traffic and Crash, if anyone has seen those.

So, what they could do, is present the player at the beginning of DX3 with the idea that JC was cunning enough to figure out a way to make ALL 3 outcomes SEEM like they occured. What if JC first merged with Helios, and then JC/Helios decided that the first thing they need to do is fool the other two bozos into thinking that JC had listened to them. In the Tong ending, we never got to see anything other than those reactors "explode," JC running for a bit, and Tong yelling "JC! JC!" Well, after JC merged with Helos, he could have easily figured out a way to send Tong a doctored video feed of the reactors exploding and shut off some power near the area where Tong was located. That would have bought them some time with Tong. Then JC/Helios would pretend that JC is still only JC, without Helios, and then shut off the fusion reactors to appease the Illuminati. After that, JC/Helios infiltrates the Illuminati, seeming to appear as JUST JC. This is also very plausible because that ending too was ambiguous. So, like i said, the endings that we all saw may have looked all different on the surface, but could be spun into a devious chain of events that JC masterminded. Also fits with the theme of conspiracies being created and uncovered.:)

And then you go from there and write an original story, as so many ppl seem to want. Tong gets mad, starts a war. Illuminati needs to be dismantled. New problems and original plotlines arise, etc. etc. Everybody wins.

Just an idea