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DXeXodus
8th Feb 2008, 04:27
Even though the original DX is dated graphically one can only but marvel at the originality of the weapons at your disposal. Comapared to the games we were playing when and after DX1 came out, the weapons were amazing. The upgrade and skill system also allowed one to take what may seem like a fairly standard pistol and turn into a deadly silenced 'sniper rifle' type pistol. It was great. The fact that one could become lethal with the smallest of weapons is what added to JC's 'coolness'. Then, there was the beautiful crossbow, the assault rifle (with 20mm HE ammo which was the best), the shotgun, which, if loaded with sabot rounds was extremely powerful, against armoured units. It was a fantastic game, and this can be partly (which, in the scope of the game's brilliance, is massively) associated with the clever weapon design and the way they were linked to skills and the way one could modify them.

My favourite weapon, which is probably a cliche choice, is of course the GEP gun, which was completely devestating and ultimately one of the coolest weapons in gaming history. (I would say that the next in line would have to be the rail gun from red faction :) ). I really missed the GEP gun in DX2 and I certainly hope that they bring it back. If the game is set too far in the future and technology has advanced, then design an updated model that can do some or other new fancy thing. (maybe have a built in camera - ALA Unreal tournament. Cant remember if it already does so dont lynch me if it does)

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that the weapons are ifinitely important in creating a good game.. The choice of weapons, the way they look and 'feel' as well as how they affect your victim.

Perhaps we could make some suggestions as to what weapons should stay (if older or newer versions depending on if it's a prequel or a sequel) and what new weapons we would like to wield in the next DX...

I'm thinking:

Bring back/keep:

- Throwing knives (maybe have some advanced precision aiming system where it zooms in on the enemy where you, depending on your skill level, can select a specific hit location)
- Dragon's tooth sword or equivalent (Nuff said)
- Stealth pistol (The super agent's silent friend)
- Wrist mounted crossbow (3 Ammo types again please. Or 4 :) )
- GEP gun (mentioned before)

New ideas:

- Dual pistols (for the more action orientated (rambo) player)
- Riot shield (For the cowardly player :( )
- Harpoon (for large/dangerous underwater levels)
- Remotely triggered mines
- Perhaps even deployable mini-turrents

Thats all that I can think of now... any ideas?

RedFeather1975
8th Feb 2008, 04:30
I don't have many ideas, but I'm kinda sick of weapons being only something that fires a projectile into a bad guy. :(

How about a weapon that turns the enemy into radioactive goo and anyone stepping in that goo gets stuck and poisoned. I know, it's yucky.

Caradoc
8th Feb 2008, 07:57
1.Pistol - the classic choise for any special agent. It should be fully customized with many diffrerent weapon mods just like in dx1, (even with removable silencer this time)
2. Wrist crosbow (with many different dart types)
3.A rifle type long range sniping weapon for those long range kills.
4.Knife - Let me quote Leon. The rifle is the first weapon you learn how to use, because it lets you keep your distance from the client. The closer you get to being a pro, the closer you can get to the client. The knife, for example, is the last thing you learn. .
5. Flamethrower muahaha let them burn! ;)

6. Not really a weapon, but what about proper melee combat with different moves..a self defence moves i mean. I would imagine that trained nano augmented agent should know a thing or two how to take out enemies with bare hands.

DXeXodus
8th Feb 2008, 09:28
I think that melee combat could be a nice touch... but ONLY if it is done properly. It must be fluid and must blend in with the rest of you animations. Perhaps even moves which allow you to disarm an opponent, rendering them defensless as you shoot them with their own gun... quite a few games pulled this off quite nicely. I know that in the original DX on could shoot the gun out of someones hand if you got them in the arm... which was great, and way ahead of it's time.

RedFeather1975
8th Feb 2008, 09:45
How about some of these.

Flash Freeze Mine.
You can place the mine on horizontal or vertical surfaces. It will emit a sonar pulse and if the pulse return is disrupted it'll flash freeze everything within a certain radius.

Ganglia Disruptor
A short range weapon that sends a quick series of magnetic and sonic waves disrupting neurological systems. Affected targets are temporarily afflicted with drastically altered depth perception and inhibited motor skills. Multiple use effects can stack leading to temporary paralysis and even shut down nervous system functions dealing with respiration and circulatory systems, leading to death.

Hitcher Bolt
A bolt shot designed to release specialized nano technology that temporarily hijacks sensory relays in organic brain systems. Information received by the target is sent to a monitoring device. The monitoring device can show target body temperature, heart rate, vague visual imagery and sound. The nanites can be set to auto destruct safely or violently leaving the target alive or harming them. Also acts as a tracking device.

Glitch Hitcher Bolt
Also designed to release specialized nano technology, this hijacks the nervous system and loops all bio-electrical current for a short duration. Target attempts to repeat their physical actions, if unable they will spasm. Also during the hijack their sensory perception is looped, allowing you to walk past them without being noticed, or trick them into thinking you are still somewhere you are not. The nanites can be set to auto destruct safely or violently leaving the target alive or harming them.

Organic Alteration Compound
This is basically a compound that when applied to organic matter will make it highly volatile and explode under extreme temperatures. It can be applied to multi-organisms or even something as simple as blood. Setting fire to, or freezing the affected target will cause it to explode.

Hellfire Delivery System
A weapon that fires specially designed projectiles that release gases causing a trail of fire. On contact the rest of the gas is released causing an area of effect fire bomb. The longer the projectile flies before hitting a surface will significantly reduce the AOE fire bomb radius. The fire trail can burn objects close to the trail of the projectile.

Kinetic Force Compound
A substance that instantly bonds to a surface and eventually disintegrates. It softens inital impacts and then accelerates kinetic energy in the reaction. Bouncing objects off these surfaces will increase their kinetic force causing them to fly faster and hit harder. A Hellfire projectile will not explode against these surfaces, but instead bounce off them.
You can use it on the floor and jump on it too.
Using it on a melee weapon will increase it's recoil and decrease it's stopping power.

V.O.I.D system
3-4 nodes can be placed on surfaces which create a 2 to 3 dimensional field. This field disrupts particle direction and energy magnitude. Visual sensors cannot obtain information past this field, the area appears as actual static, and objects sent through the field become stuck. A thrown grenade, for example, will freeze in the air when it attempts to pass through the field.

Atremis Explosive Device
A device which can be prepared by identifying targets as friendly or hostile.
Once the device is thrown it calculates target proximity and modifies it's delivery system to create a blast direction which won't hurt targets marked as friendly. Targets don't need to be NPCs.

jordan_a
8th Feb 2008, 09:58
DXeXodus please read: Weapons, ammo (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75221)

RedFeather1975
8th Feb 2008, 10:05
That topic was a catch all discussion that hasn't focused on weapon ideas.
This one is more in depth in the creative department. I would prefer it be separate as it's not asking so many things to be discussed at once.

DXeXodus
8th Feb 2008, 10:56
@ Jordan a: As mentioned by RedFeather 1975, this thread is meant to focus more on the design of new types of weapons and combat devices. Its a bit more in depth than the weapons, ammo thread.

@ Redfeather: Wow... you have some weird stuff going on in your head... but some very interesting stuff nonetheless

RedFeather1975
8th Feb 2008, 11:30
I could not sleep and am just passing the time. :(

Zegano
9th Feb 2008, 00:56
6. Not really a weapon, but what about proper melee combat with different moves..a self defence moves i mean. I would imagine that trained nano augmented agent should know a thing or two how to take out enemies with bare hands.

Beating an enemy to death with your bare hands would be pretty bad ass, I must admit.

Redfeather, I think your ideas are too sci fi for Deus Ex, although you should get a job as a weapon designer for games. I'd buy anything which had that much awesome in it.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the riot prod? I'd like to see a similar ammo type for the crossbow, a dart which electrocutes and stuns its target. That would put the tranq dart to shame. It would have to do less over all damage though.

As for grenades, all I can say is: Greasel in a can

WildcatPhoenix
9th Feb 2008, 01:03
One of my mod team members whipped up an explosive cat launcher from a modified GEP gun. :lol:

So if you're listening, Eidos Montreal, CAT Launcher= instant win.

-Wildcat

Zegano
9th Feb 2008, 01:47
Are these the forums for Deus Ex or Postal? :scratch: :nut:

Grunt
9th Feb 2008, 22:12
Of all weapons.... I want the sniper rifle from the first installment back, same with that sawed-off shotgun. Secondary fire could be a cool idea if they weren't as bad as they were in Invisible War (the shotgun for example, had a smoke grenade? as a secondary fire...) or why not being able to melee an opponent, Halo-style. Would fit in nicely with the stealth idea of Deus Ex.

B0b_P@ge
9th Feb 2008, 22:50
-Skull Gun
-Orbital Particle Cannon uplink ... heh heh heee

Lo Bruto
10th Feb 2008, 01:22
If the game is a prequel, i'd like to see some weapons like the ones we have now... none of the actual named weapons, but look alikes... You know, some weapons designs lasts decades...

If it's a sequel I Hope not to see some over-futuristic S:whistle:T like laser guns and Energy beams

Zegano
10th Feb 2008, 01:45
If it's a sequel I Hope not to see some over-futuristic S:whistle:T like laser guns and Energy beams

Don't worry, they know how much everyone complained about the overly sci fi world in IW, so they'll probably stick with gun-powder based ballistic weaponry.

Also, maybe a railgun weapon mod for some guns, which uses magnets to add more speed to bullets, giving them greater damage. Then again, maybe too sci fi.

Blade_hunter
10th Feb 2008, 21:49
I want to purpose some things ,take ideas for other posters that I think be good and some existing weapons

Melee and tools (one handed can be used with a shield
Knives (Combat knife*, cutter, kitchen knives, throwing knifes*, butcher knife, swiss knife ....)
Machette, Poignard, Sword, Saber, Katana, Rapier, cimitar*
Crowbar*
Batons*
Screw drivers
Powered saws (Chainsaws (2 models), Sabre saw, electric saw)
Saws (Hack saw, Hand saw)
Abrasive blasters (2 models)
Drillers (Cordless drills, Electrical drills, Rotary hammers)
Hammer
Axe
Stun prod
Riot shields², Trash lids
Nanotech sword
Extinguisher
Aerosol gun (( 2 models) pepper spray and other kinds of aerosol)
Lighter (tokai lighter and zippo (needed if you want smoke or made other usages :D ))
Darts
other hand held objects

Aproximatively 56 objects :o

Pistols: weapons can be used with a shield or in akimbo mode (depends of your skils levels)
-Pistols*²+ (5 models)
-laser pistols (2 models)
-plasma pistols (2 models)
-Revolvers (3 models)
-Twin barrelled pistols (2 models)
-One handed Machine pistols (3 models)
-Minicrossbow* and boltcaster+ (1 model each)
-Flare pistols (2 models)
-Taser (2 models)

23 items

Carabines and rifles: Weapons like two handed submachine guns, shoguns, and some rifles
-Compound bow (1 model)
-Crossbow (2 models)
-Sawed off shotguns*(2 models)
-Shotguns+ (4 models)
-Assault shotguns*(2 models)
-Submachine guns (3 models)
-Military and Civilian Rifles (4 models)
-Sniper rifles*+ (4 models)
-Assault rifles* (6 models)
-Laser rifles (3 models)
-Plasma rifles (3 models)
-Harpoon rifle² (2 models)
-Stake gun (1 model)
-Break action railgun rifle (1 model)
-Rotary assault rifle (1 model)

39 items

Heavy weapons: Weapons like rocket launcher, machine guns, grenade launcher, Flame thrower and other heavy stuff :D

-Machine guns (4 models)
-Portative Miniguns (3 models)
-Rocket lauchers*+(5 models)
-RPG's (2 models)
-Grenade lauchers (4 models)
-Portative cannon (1 model)
-Laser cannon (1 model)
-Plasma cannon*(1 model)
-Microwave device(1 model)
-Freeze cannon (1 model )
-Heavy railgun rifle (1 model)
-Lightening guns (2 models)
-Flamethowers (2 models)
-Ion cannon (1 model)
-Gravity cannon (1 model)

30 weapons

Ammo
-5.56x45 mm (perforating, anti personel)
-7.62x51 mm (perforating, poisonned, EMP)
-.30-06 cal (perforating, EMP, explosive)
-9 mm (Normal and Poisoned)
-.357 magnum (Normal and perforating)
-10 mm (Normal and EMP)
-.45 cal (Normal, poisoned
-.50 cal (Normal, explosive, frag, EMP)
-.50 BMG (Perforating, explosive, frag)
-12V battery
-24V battery
-1.5V energy cell
-Napalm canister
-Gasoline canister
-Aerosols (tear gas, smoke gas, normal aerosols, and maybe others)
-Nitrogen canister
-Biological canister
-10 gauge shells (buckshot, flechette, flare, fire and sabot)
-12 gauge shells (buckshot, sabot, flechette, frag 12 and slug)
-20 gauge shells (buckshot, EMP, explosive and slug)
-40 mm grenade shells (HE, frag, tear gas, smoke, flash, EMP, poison, rad, incendiary and buckshot)
-44 mm rockets (HE, incendiary, biological)
-84 mm rockets (HE, phosphorous, frag, smoke, double warhead, perforating)
-100 mm rockets (HE, frag, Chemical, antimatter)
-75 mm propelled grenade (HE, frag, EMP)
-78 mm cannon shells (HE, Frag)
-Ion clips
-22 mm depleted uranium shells
-Crossbow darts (Fire, poison, normal, rocket,phosphorous)
-Crossbow arrows (Fire, poison, normal, explosive, EMP, tear gas)
-Bow arrows (Fire, normal, poison, explosive, noise, smoke, frag)
-Harpoon arrows (Normal, Explosive, trigered)
-Flares (lighting, flame, explosive, flash)

:lmao:

There are my purposal but I think most of the gamers will thinked "its too much and unuseful" but I think each weapon have rate of fire, rounds capacity, room space requirements, effects, uprgrades and efficiencys
in reality we can found some kinds of different stuff too but I want no real weapons, only realistic or logic effects, usefullness, and choice. :)

Lo Bruto
10th Feb 2008, 23:51
:eek:
Oh man. This is way too suggestions.
Why to have 7.62 and 5.56 ammo at the same time? Or 3 bore diameters of shotguns shells? I understand the variety of ammo types we all want back but This is Deus Ex, not a Military Simulator.:nut:

And all this types of Swords and the idea of a shield... we are at Tong's New Dark Age or something?

DXeXodus
11th Feb 2008, 11:52
Blade_hunter: That certainly is alot of weapons that you are proposing. Highly unrealistic tho to have so many variants of the same thing. I like the notion however of a simpler version of what you are suggesting. This is testament to the approach taken in the first game. I really prefer having more choice such as having a standard pistol as well as a stealth pistol, and a sawn-off shotgun as well as a auto shotgun. Plus variable ammo for the same gun. It was brilliant and should come back. Warren Spector argues that Universal ammo was a design decision which made the game more accessible, but it is obvious that by doing this he has slapped hardcore gamers in the face. It was regarded as sad news when it was frst announced that he is not going to feature in the dev process of the third game, but, looking at his change in philosphy since DX1 I think its good news.

Back to weapons however. I think it would add a realistic dynamic to gameply to have your weapon jamming as is the case in reality. I appreciate that technology has advanced significantly in the DX timeframe but the weapons mainly use common bullets and gunpowder which promote the wear and tear of ones weapon.

I think other elements such as showing ammo count on ones gun could be interesting as it has worked quite well in keeping the hud minimal in games such as Doom 3.

The upgrades added to a gun should be seen on the weapon after the upgrade is copmplete. These uprgades should be removable so that they may be placed on a different gun if wanted. Something akin to S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Btw: thats a game to look at regarding how to approach the hud, interfacea and inventory design.. it would fit DX perfectly as an improvement on the original system.

jd10013
11th Feb 2008, 14:29
not to be a stick in the mud, but I'm not so much worried about weapons. well, outside of a fair variety of them. so long as there are 10-15 different types (mele included) different ammo types, and some form of modification available I'll be happy. The only addition I'd like to see is a continuation of the alternate fire mode that was in IW. bring back smoke and flash bombs. and better mods like the glass destabilizer would be good.

Blade_hunter
11th Feb 2008, 17:30
Weapon jamming can enhances the gameplay and give an utility of mechanics skill if we have this skill in the game.
I think melee weapons can be broken too not all but few of them.
You can use your hands to fight and take items, and all carryable objects
For the weapon functions we can use a weapon customization system to change fire modes and ammo loaded in a short period of time.
I didn't talk about grenades but i think grenades can be selected and use an accessorie button (used for lock picks and other non weapon devices) to use the grenade or give your weapon back. Some hand grenades can be used as proximity mines, timed explosives, laser triggered mines, cord triggered mines, timed grenade, impact grenade, radio controlled grenade, spider mine.
The grenades have only some of these functions and not all of them.
for breaking glass we can only use a different kind of ammo or a tool to break the glass silently

GruntOwner
17th Feb 2008, 16:50
I agree with the ideas about keeping it slug based, and a railgun isn't really that sci fi, it would just be damned cumbersome, like a 2 metre tube encased in electro-magnetic foils. I would love to see the original grenade system brought back, the idea of a grenade that acted as a mine was just genius. As for sci fi, given the time period it MAY be justifiable to have a plasma weapon the ionizes local nitrogen gasses, superheats them and projects them along a magnetic acceleration chambre, much like the rail gun, to act as an unlimited ammo uber pistol, found in some secret base place (*cough*)qinetiq, UK, storyline concerning the UK ans US being at eachother's throat since the begginning of the oil crysis and technological breakthroughs only amplifying that tension, Just as long as the whole storyline isn't focused around the conflict/second cold war(*cough*). I think an integral part of the original was showing people just how deadly weapons are, a pistol would drop anyone with a well placed shot, and I hope they return weapons to that state in DX3.

v.dog
17th Feb 2008, 18:15
Weapon jamming can enhances the gameplay and give an utility of mechanics skill if we have this skill in the game.
I think melee weapons can be broken too not all but few of them.That depends. The gun breaking/jamming mechanic in SS2 occurred way too often. It's the future, surely a gun can last longer than an few hours.

It really comes down to the timescale in DX3. If it's 1:1 or close to it (ie, the events in a 30 hour game take place over a 30 hour period), then there's not much point in having it.

If the game is spread over a much longer time frame (ala STALKER), then it makes more sense.

Lo Bruto
17th Feb 2008, 20:31
That depends. The gun breaking/jamming mechanic in SS2 occurred way too often. It's the future, surely a gun can last longer than an few hours.

It really comes down to the timescale in DX3. If it's 1:1 or close to it (ie, the events in a 30 hour game take place over a 30 hour period), then there's not much point in having it.

If the game is spread over a much longer time frame (ala STALKER), then it makes more sense.

Oh yeah, not nice to jam your gun dozens of time in a game that takes place in a few nights. :nut:

I only ask for a better melee combat... And Ballistic Protection...
Charging with a sword while the guy uses the full 30 bullets clip in you chest is Cool...
and if the devs decide to put a Katana as the sword, OK... but look... The sword don't need to be Japanese to be cool, all right... I know there is a lot of katana-hype :D, but any sword is just cool...

Angel/0A
17th Feb 2008, 22:52
I only ask for a better melee combat...

As in, sword clanging a la Halo 3? Or just being able to use anything as a melee weapon if needed?

g8kpr
18th Feb 2008, 01:40
I'm looking forward to what they're going to do about the plasma rifle. In the first DX either you had the one shot throw away or the huge plasma rifle that was a load to carry. That would be cool to see them make a hand held reusable plasma pistol for dx3.
I want throwing knives too, maybe poison?

Blade_hunter
18th Feb 2008, 06:24
For the weapon jamming I think it can enhances the gameplay but I forget to specify some elements

System shock 2 and Deus Ex 1 have some most gameplay elements in common
like:
The inventory system, the weapon modification, the multiple ammo type, the right mouse button used to interact with your universe, the food ,the fact you can go back of a level, the logs, the fact you pick up an item to your inventory to accomplish a mission, the skill system, the experience acquirements system are approximatively identical.

the Sshock gameplay is slow in comparison of DX, and if the gameplay is faster the weapon jamming isn't good.
The weapons mustn't break often to have this feature and must easy to repair.

If DX have this feature or not it was the same for me.
This isn't the most important element for, the most important gamplay elements are:
-Great story
-Various characters
-RPG elements (inventory system, skills, Biomods .....)
-FPS action !
-Level design
-Interactivity with your world and with the story.
-Various items
-The choice ! Like DX1
-Detailed universe
-Somthing like the first DX with more :)

Blade_hunter
18th Feb 2008, 19:27
I think we can help the game with designs and I want submit my own designs
if someone wants to post here a design this post is the reason to do this :)

My first design is a simple pistol .50 AE with some accessories

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7062/pistolnf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7062/pistolnf9.7855783fdc.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=507&i=pistolnf9.jpg)
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7062/pistolnf9.jpg

The pistol name is "Dark Falcon", nothing original but a classic look for a simple pistol i have made some better and original weapons but I propose them more later ....

Lo Bruto
18th Feb 2008, 19:52
Why didn't you posted in the Weapon suggestions topic? Way easier...

Blade_hunter
18th Feb 2008, 22:17
It's only for designs ;) the other post is for the weapon suggestions

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2482/gepjh2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2482/gepjh2.jpg

Ther is my GEP GUN

Lo Bruto
19th Feb 2008, 19:19
But now it's here... the Moderator moved.
By the way, don't you think the barrel of your GEP Gun is a little tight for a rocket pop up?

Overall, great artwork...

O.m.a.r
19th Feb 2008, 19:33
I just hope the weapons look kick ass :cool:

Blade_hunter
19th Feb 2008, 21:21
Perhaps ... Anyway, I think my weapons design should be improved, and depends what is a normal rocket size for you, but it's true the cannon of my GEP gun looks small... next time I make something better if I can ^^

Slack
23rd Feb 2008, 16:39
PORTABLE TURRET! please

minus0ne
23rd Feb 2008, 23:28
I'd like to see one or two 'functional' weapons included as well, perhaps a grappling gun in homage to Thief's vine/rope arrows or an EMP gun (/attachment) similar to Splinter Cell's EMP attachment (to temporarily kill lights and such).

JoeGreensKiller
23rd Feb 2008, 23:48
as boreing as this may sound...id like to be able to punch, it would've come in handy more then a few times lol

Blade_hunter
24th Feb 2008, 15:50
I post here more designs

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/628/guns2gk1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/628/guns2gk1.2f6a90dc1a.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=90&i=guns2gk1.jpg)

there is an assault rifle with an underbarrel grenade launcher, a portable machine gun and a sawed off shotgun
the first and the last weapon are inspired by the DX 1 weapons, the machinegun is an original weapon with a realistic look (I think)

Lo Bruto
24th Feb 2008, 18:19
The Design of the Assault Rifle in DX is just fantastic, they created something unique with that drum-like clip...

Nice drawings, buddy... :thumbsup:

Blade_hunter
1st Mar 2008, 19:11
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5052/guns3ma6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5052/guns3ma6.50c69e7b73.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=519&i=guns3ma6.jpg)

This time I designed 3 kind of sniper rifles

The compact sniper is a bolt action 7.62 mm sniper rifle with 10 rounds per clip
Its bull-pup desing provides a compact size and keep a fire power of a traditional sniper rifle

The laser sniper is an enrgy rifle with high fire power it can burn, pierce most of targets, this gun is more effective against armored targets and its battery pack provides 30 shots or 10 depends the fire mode used, its scope integrates a night vision and this gun can't be equiped with a scilencer

The armor pulveriser system is a sort of anti-tank semi-automatic sniper rifle, this weapon is effective against bots, and other armored targets.
Its magazine provides six 20 mm flechette rounds.

Azrepheal
1st Mar 2008, 19:27
Awesome ideas, Blade_hunter.

What Id personally like to see (although I somewhat doubt itll happen) is more 'everyday' weapons. That is, finding an aerosol can and a lighter, and creating a makeshift flamethrower. Or picking up the UNATCO flagpole and beating someone to death with it (accompanied by blood splatters all over the flag :D )

After all, while it looked a little silly throwing chairs and basketballs at people in DX 1, if implemented properly it could be very useful (and a realistic tactic, if you run out of ammo)

...dammit now Ive got the UNATCO flag idea stuck in my head. Completing the game using that as your only weapon? *stab* *stab* *thwack* THATS hardcore :lmao:

Blade_hunter
1st Mar 2008, 19:47
Ha ha ! Nice ideas using objects like this makes more fun in the game :)

I never thinked to burn a flag to use this as a weapon ...... :D

I love crazy ideas :nut:

mouse
1st Mar 2008, 21:02
@Blade_hunter: that are some really nice designs!

I like the idea of 'everyday weapons' :) its realistic that you dont have huge amount of ammo with you, so you have to be creative...:D

IcarusIsLookingForYou
3rd Mar 2008, 21:59
When I make my trip up to Canada next month, I'll be sure to stand outside of Eidos Montreal's offices screaming, "BRING THE GEP GUN BACK!!," like the crazy people in those BK commercials who want their Whoppers.

Azrepheal
3rd Mar 2008, 22:08
"BRING THE GEP GUN BACK!!,"

Bing... bing.. bing.. bing bing biibibibibiiiiiii <woosh> :lmao:

IcarusIsLookingForYou
3rd Mar 2008, 22:15
Bing... bing.. bing.. bing bing biibibibibiiiiiii <woosh> :lmao:

Ah, that sound followed by Louis Pan's gibs being sprayed all over the flower vendor. It's like listening to church bells on Sunday morning...

Azrepheal
3rd Mar 2008, 22:37
I know this is posted somewhere else, but its worth a re-shout :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgOKduU05t4

"Son of a...!"

Lo Bruto
3rd Mar 2008, 22:53
All I want back are the Throwing Knives...

The coolest thing ever.

IcarusIsLookingForYou
3rd Mar 2008, 23:01
I know this is posted somewhere else, but its worth a re-shout :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgOKduU05t4

"Son of a...!"

Ha, the best thing is that he turned around to look at the rocket. Say what you want about DX's AI, it has made for many a hilarious moment. BRING THE GEP GUN BACK!!

pauldenton
4th Mar 2008, 08:25
can i control a giant bot?

i would like to be able to get inside a giant hydrolic bot suite or a giant attack bot guard that can be either auto or human controlled.

imagine a giant bot determined to get you and it turns out to be someone like Bob Page inside mocking you while you are weak - a good time for a `oh crap!` moment and at some point you also get to control one! - a good time for an `ave some of this` moment.

i wouldnt want to see it in every level perhaps just one or two scenes in the game.

IcarusIsLookingForYou
4th Mar 2008, 16:24
can i control a giant bot?

Jumping into a giant mech or power suit has been so overdone. Every time I encounter something like that in a game I just yawn and wait for the sequence to end. To me, a sequence we're you're just blowing up everything in sight in a huge robot is a bit too "arcadey" for a game like DX, which is all about subtley.

gamer0004
4th Mar 2008, 16:25
Jumping into a giant mech or power suit has been so overdone. Every time I encounter something like that in a game I just yawn and wait for the sequence to end. To me, a sequence we're you're just blowing up everything in sight in a huge robot is a bit too "arcadey" for a game like DX, which is all about subtley.

I couldn't agree more.

IcarusIsLookingForYou
4th Mar 2008, 17:33
I couldn't agree more.

Yeah, it could be even worse... the sequence could be on rails :mad2:

pauldenton
4th Mar 2008, 17:45
Jumping into a giant mech or power suit has been so overdone. Every time I encounter something like that in a game I just yawn and wait for the sequence to end. To me, a sequence we're you're just blowing up everything in sight in a huge robot is a bit too "arcadey" for a game like DX, which is all about subtley.

How you use a large bot can be subtle. you could use it for repairs or protection or travel, moving objects, or fighting, as said i would keep its access very limited to stop it from being overused, perhaps just two or three scenes in the whole game.

now lets say you have the choice of going for the BOT or not? it ads variety and choices and DX is about variety and choices, you dont like the bot method, simple - then dont use it - that is DX.

many here want to remotely control bots, i am just suggesting taking it further and being a part of the bot on an accasion or two, where you are no longer remote but will face the consequences in person should your plan fail.

i am also suggesting that at some point an enemy will also control a bot which will be a new tough challenge to help keep the game fresh and you on your toes.

i dont want to only ever control a bot from a window/screen a mile away i want to be part of the action, i want some variety and i want palpable fear and consequences - not just a `damn my bot a mile away got blown up!`. but on accasion a `oh crap i could die if i dont think of something fast in this bot, damn wheres my fire extinguisher! does this thing accept gep rocket ammo?`.

it could be anything but boring if a little effort were put into it and it was not overplayed.

pauldenton
4th Mar 2008, 17:50
Yeah, it could be even worse... the sequence could be on rails :mad2:

no one is suggesting putting it on rails!

IcarusIsLookingForYou
4th Mar 2008, 19:01
it ads variety and choices and DX is about variety and choices, you dont like the bot method, simple - then dont use it - that is DX.

It certainly would add variety, but I don't see how piloting a bot wouldn't just turn into a pure, overpowered killfest, considering its kind of hard to move about silently with a few tons of steel. Even when you were running and gunning in DX there was still more finesse than that (if you didn't want to die in short order). Fighting a giant mech could be cool as long as there's many different ways of dispatching the thing (or avoid it all together, this is DX after all). But I don't know... I've just piloted and fought so many mechs in games throughout the years that I've just grown tired of them.

BTW, I know that no one suggested putting a sequence like that on rails, but let's face it, it's been done on rails before and always with disastrous results. I was just pointing out a very real and horrible possibility.

pauldenton
7th Mar 2008, 07:56
Jet pack.

not sure what you guys will make of this one, its not a weapon but how about a limited use jet pack?

again just for one scene or two to add variety and keep the game fresh.

perhaps as an option to get to the top of a tower to take out guards, or obtain something essential. or to get over a few critical high walls. or if you are at the top of a building and you are seriously outnumbered and are in great danger when they reach the top, you may discover a jet pack and use it to escape just when you thought it might be imposible - any other ideas?

again it can be a hard to obtain option that you don`t have to use.

gamer0004
7th Mar 2008, 13:31
It all sounds a bit like a cheap action movie. Besides that, jet packs are extremely inefficient. So they won't be used.

IcarusIsLookingForYou
7th Mar 2008, 16:08
Jet pack.

A jet pack? Looks like we're going to clash again, PD. I wouldn't recommend a jet pack for the same reason I wouldn't recommend mech combat.

pauldenton
7th Mar 2008, 21:36
IcarusIsLookingForYou

i can understand your concerns, i have some doubts myself how it would work out in practise, though i am optimistic if the ideas were carefully and skillfully implimented.

pauldenton
7th Mar 2008, 21:47
It all sounds a bit like a cheap action movie. Besides that, jet packs are extremely inefficient. So they won't be used.

i am not suggesting that you spend large chunks of the game with a never ending powered jet pack. that certainly would destroy DX, that is beyond doubt.
what i am suggesting as a possiblity is short intelligent implimentations to give variety and add interest and surprise to small sections of the game.
you wouldnt have to use it if you dont want to!

still i dont expect everyone to agree with me,
the more input the better, we then get a clearer idea of what people like and dont like.

IcarusIsLookingForYou
8th Mar 2008, 01:27
i am not suggesting that you spend large chunks of the game with a never ending powered jet pack. that certainly would destroy DX, that is beyond doubt.
what i am suggesting as a possiblity is short intelligent implimentations to give variety and add interest and surprise to small sections of the game.
you wouldnt have to use it if you dont want to!

still i dont expect everyone to agree with me,
the more input the better, we then get a clearer idea of what people like and dont like.

Like I've said before, I'm all for variety. However, I think there are far more practical and less glitzy ways of going about it. Plus, I can't remember a time when I've seen a movie character flying a jetpack and haven't laughed at how ridiculous they look.

pauldenton
8th Mar 2008, 04:01
Like I've said before, I'm all for variety. However, I think there are far more practical and less glitzy ways of going about it. Plus, I can't remember a time when I've seen a movie character flying a jetpack and haven't laughed at how ridiculous they look.


and i have seen real footage and realised just how damn cool it is, lets not confuse cheesy footage and films with cool tech, and jet packs while inefficiant today are definately cool tech.

now imagine if JCs helicopter was breaking up and he had to jump, what would be more DX - a parachute or a jet pack?

real jetpack footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THEcWrznicY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkX2cAmm_zs

something a bit different for fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHYXrqoS08o&eurl=http://discovermagazine.com/2008/feb/it.s-2008-here.s-your-jet-pack

jet pack, part real in a more DX like situation -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_P71mkuVI

some affordable cool tech

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09lIbsDXa_A

Hufterkruk
8th Mar 2008, 17:29
I think it would be awesome if you could just pick up some objects, and hit your opponents with it. Like, JC (or someone else) walks into a room, picks up a chair, and starts hitting people with it.

mouse
8th Mar 2008, 18:26
I think it would be awesome if you could just pick up some objects, and hit your opponents with it. Like, JC (or someone else) walks into a room, picks up a chair, and starts hitting people with it.

great idea... I like 'interactivity' with the environment :D...

isn't that a feature of the latest Splinter Cell btw?

IcarusIsLookingForYou
8th Mar 2008, 18:31
and i have seen real footage and realised just how damn cool it is, lets not confuse cheesy footage and films with cool tech, and jet packs while inefficiant today are definately cool tech.

now imagine if JCs helicopter was breaking up and he had to jump, what would be more DX - a parachute or a jet pack?

So you jump out of the plane, use your jetpack, get to safety, and then what? All it was good for was a quick little action sequence (sounds more like an interactive cutscene).

Forget the fact I think it looks silly, though it looks like a lot of fun in real life. The practicality of using a jetpack in other instances is so limited that it would be a waste of time and resources for the devs to work on trying to implement it correctly. The devs need to focus on the core values of DX instead of gimicky things like vehicles.

Your use of a segment from Walker: Texas Ranger to prove your point has left me at a loss for words...

IcarusIsLookingForYou
8th Mar 2008, 18:42
great idea... I like 'interactivity' with the environment :D...

isn't that a feature of the latest Splinter Cell btw?

If you think that's cool you should check out Condemned or Condemned 2 when it comes out later this week. It's all about visceral hand to hand combat and interactivity with environmental objects. This is, of course, if you don't object to extreme graphic violence :)

But yes, I think interactivity such as that would be great for DX3. Being able to improvise with makeshift weapons in a tough situation or tossing enemies into deadly machinery definitely feels like something a highly trained agent would do. Plus it would be great when fighting bums on the street... Oh wait, that's too much like Condemned...

gamer0004
8th Mar 2008, 20:03
i am not suggesting that you spend large chunks of the game with a never ending powered jet pack. that certainly would destroy DX, that is beyond doubt.
what i am suggesting as a possiblity is short intelligent implimentations to give variety and add interest and surprise to small sections of the game.
you wouldnt have to use it if you dont want to!

still i dont expect everyone to agree with me,
the more input the better, we then get a clearer idea of what people like and dont like.

I get your idea, but it would feel very forced. In order not to make it overpowerd they'd have to think of all kinds of cheap game mechanisms. Lots of games tend to do this, and it's really annoying.
I mean, when I have a jetpack I'd want to fly directly to my goal. But that'd be too easy, so there are certain places where you have to put it off and continue the journey on foot. And that feels really stupid.
And when they don't do that, it is too easy...

And a parachute is more DX. DX valued realism above cool looking stuff.

Church_Of_Stevedave
10th Mar 2008, 11:09
First and foremost, what i posted on another thread....

"Visible weapon upgrades!!!!! Sites, larger mags, rail reinforment etc. I dont know why this hasnt been featured in many games, but having a visible change to you're weapons when you upgrade them is glorious. Hitman Blood Money, Bioshock and Resi 4 are great examples of games that gained loads of character and personalisation by actually showing the changes to you're weapons."

That is a must! And as an added bonus it'll give a more depth to the weapons. The idea of going to the quartermaster after a mission, or an equivilent, and really upgrading you're weapons visually as well as functionally would very awesome, and would reduce me to tears of joy.

But as weapons themselves go;

1. Several assault rifles with varying effetiveness, also making it so they dont appear small (held in one hand!!!!) like in the previous games. As its only slightly in the furture, slightly developed versions of contemporary rifles, would be a good idea. Steyer, M4 and maybe an AK74.

2. Sub-Machine guns. Same as above in terms of visual. P90!!! Mac 11s and AK74u, the former perhaps in urban warfare areas and the latter maybe in the more impovrished sections of the game?

3. One main pistol with lots of upgrades. Honesly i think the pistol was always the best weapon in DE1, and i think this should be developed on in DE3. Depending on how you like to play, you should be given the choice to tweak you're pistol accordingly. I.e. silencers, low-velocity ammo & stablisers for stealth, and magnum rounds, reinforced slides and stocks for just big and noisy :D

4. The shotgun should be typical and solid, but perhaps with a automatic version later on.

5. Sniper rifles, just one and make it glorious! Different scopes?

6. Rocket launchers, i think they should be more of the disposible kind, RPGs and LAWs for example. That way they place more of a role throughout the game without giving you too much of an advantge.

Thats all i can think of for now. But i think upragrade need to be developed the most, and made to actually change the appearance of the weapon.

mouse
10th Mar 2008, 15:33
I prefer a minimum violence approach, I'm a secret agent and no berserk. I need a stun prod, a baton, tear gas and tranquilizer darts from the first game. From the second game there's that nice biotox drone I wish to have again.

I'd also like to have some features as a sticky taser - when launched from the grenade slot of your gun this will attach to an enemy and release a electric shock. I liked this in Splinter Cell and I think something like it would be a great addition to DX

GruntOwner
10th Mar 2008, 17:24
I'm not too keen on multpile versions of each wepaon type personally. If they're each very specific in their roles, like a halo-esque battle rifle for mid range sniping versus the standard assault rifle, maybe, but the idea of 5 different assault rifles with no real difference apert from 10% increase to x 5% decrease to y seems a bit tom clancy for my liking. The pistol idea I support fully, I felt so dissapointed when I ran out of mods for it. A scope, laser sight and 11 round magazine wasen't really the sort of primary wepon I ever thought I'd be reduced to. A 20 round, silenced, long barrel, scoped monstrocity on the other hand, or should I feel so inclined, a gyroc spewing 4 guage rail pistol, would make the game's replayablity a bit more than "I'll be a bit stealthier by using the stealth pistol/gung ho with the gep/flamer." Kalashnikov is an over used brand imo. I'd want a high tech PDW like an updated p90, or a bullpup conversion of the spectre, not a cliche. The AKM (no AK47s were ever actually seen in the field, it was just the production name. They had to make some modifications to the reciever beforehand) is only thought so highly of due to cost, durability and minimalism in range/components. The cost isn't going to be an issue to a super agent, neither is the durability as it would mostly be urban combat, and as for the minimalism, If my £30,000,000,000,000 WMD can't repair a weapon, the tax payers are gonna want a refund.

If it were me, and this is in no way an "I know more than anyone else on the forum" rant, there would be:
A mid range battle rifle, silencer optional, semi automatic, scope compattable.
A sub-machine gun. short range bullet hose. silencer optional, huge clip.
A shotgun. Clip fed, sturdy, noisy, unremarkable 12guage shotgun.
A sniper. Silencer optional, scope mods possible.
A stun prod. 'nuff said.
A knife/tonfa or general assortment of mundane melee weapons.
A crossbow or equivelent, maybe a gas operated version but just generally a silent, non lethal toy.
A pistol. A regular mundane pistol with every possible mod from clip extentions to silencers to automatic chambers.
An assault rifle. Modernized M4 might be a good choice, but just any automatic weapon that would be too large to class as an SMG to the average console gamer. (I like to think of myself as an above average console gamer, thankyou very much)
Baggy coats. They frighten the terrorists by making them think that we are bigger than we really are.

The optional list, as in I'm not sure if these would work and they might be a tad risky, or just damned unnecersary, but what the hell, we're all civilised here:
A pistol box. Not just a pistol but a toolkit. find an appropriate bot or other such limiting factor and get creative. Start off with a blowback chamber and standard feed, pick up a quad collumn stacking clip, magnetic acceleration chamber, bullet supercondenser or just a silencer which can be applied at will assuming that there's a friendly bot in the vecinity.
A 50.cal. I suppose at the end of the day someone's always going to want a barret. Unfortunately they went out of production in '92 so we'll have have to make do with some insane anti bot meteor which, fired from standing, would probably have a scope drift the size of texas, and upon firing cause about 20 points of damage to whichever arm you're bracing it against.
An option to carbine your snipers. just take a good section off the barrel in a professional manner. Easily achievable, especially when you look at the WA2000. It wouls also be quite fun with the 50.cal idea of a metre long bulk nailing a bot from half a mile away.
A self sufficient weapon. Possibly a plasma weapon if the time allows it, but just generally a weapon that doesn't need ammo. High tech and probably unique/low supply, but still there.

The "no" list, a compilation of things I would like to avoid myself, and the reasons for such an opinion:
Jet pack: One of the great things about JC Denton was that despite being The organic counterpart of a terminator, he could still walk into a bar and have a nice chat with the patrons, which will be a lot harder if he has a 40lb air canister strapped to his spine. If a more subtle version were possible, maybe, but lugging that thing around seems even less effecient than if i were simply to use it to bash down the wall I was jumping over.
Alternate fire. Additional ammo options, by all means but an alt. fire died with the single core. I hope it stays that way.

Well, that's all I have for now, I'll be back if I have other ideas. Unless these ones are met with such painful/disgusted hatred that I'd only provoke a riot in doing so.

Gary_Savage
10th Mar 2008, 18:04
I am not sure how popular this idea is going to be, but I would like to see slightly different guns (of at least one type, say the assault rifle) used by the different factions in the game. It would be nice if each assault rifle (in my example) has certain advantages and disadvantages, but my point is if people at a place see you with a natively used rifle, then they do not think of it; but if they see you with a rifle used by some other faction/or used at another place, then they get suspicious. I got this idea reading Gary Schroen's book, "First In," where he says that his team chose to use the AK47s, rather than American made weapons.

Also, say, an advanced enough skills system is implemented that you get good at a certain kind of rifle by using it. This gets you interested in heavily investing in one type of rifle only. As a consequence, you might be deterred from using a different kind of rifle, even if it is more plentiful, simply because you got very good with your usual rifle, and you are in a very dangerous situation. I got this idea from Marcus Luttrell's book, "Lone Survivor," in which he seems to always use the rifle that he was trained with, despite all the AK47s and plentiful ammo lying all around.

I just figured that the DX3 game could take some RPG cues from these real life situations. I am not saying this should be done for every weapon class (pistol, assault rifle, sniper rifle, etc.), but for one popular weapon, or, at best, a very small selection of very popularly used weapon classes. Any thoughts, anyone?

Gary_Savage
10th Mar 2008, 18:12
If there is a jetpack, then I would like to see it used more like a vehicle, in the sense that its limited fuel might get you over a wall, but after that you have to dump (that is, you have no reason to carry that thing around, while it slows you down). Also, you should not be allowed to store it in your inventory. That would make the jetpack something more of a player driven, extremely limited range vehicle, rather than a standard item.

Just my thoughts.

GruntOwner
10th Mar 2008, 20:02
I quite liked the homogenous weapons. It did some justice to the theme of corperate strength from the original. The NSF leader telling you about how the state was trying to weaken the individual with taxes and the decline in self employment made a lot of sense when you considered how much of a monopoly it would have taken to have that assault rifle issued world wide as the standard. If there were to be additional sources of firearms, say the civilian standard, I would like to see it as dirt cheap. I'm talking the sten MKII cheap here, from some extremely isolated/xenophobic country. China would be the obvious example, though at the rate it's developping it will have to stop using fossil fuels so heavily due to U.N. durastictions. India seems more than happy to take its place, and they do have a reasonable reputation for firearms, better known as "they made the uzi and the desert eagle" but it doesn't strike me as the ideal counterparts on the political front, though I don't know too much about how they're doing at the moment. I can't see too much justification behind the different faction weapon idea myself, but only because it seems a bit frivilous. A comparitevely pacifist faction may be more likely suited for crossbows as standard, or the patient party like the illuminati using semi automatic weapons that rely on accuracy would make sense, but if there's a "generic" assault rifle due to market domination, I can't see much of a point in only minor changes to them that vary by faction. I may have misread some of your post, and your jetpack idea does seem logical. I was tempted to suggest it as a very expensive/rare biomod until your idea came along. I'm still opposed to them as a whole, but compromises are usually the ideal solution.

gamer0004
10th Mar 2008, 20:21
I'd like it if the Chinese army used a different assault rifle than the American Army. But why would they get suspicious if you have a different kind of assault rifle? Don't you think the lack of an uniform is more suspicious :P
And gangmembers (or terrorist forces) wouldn't all use the same kind of weapon, so it wouldn't work there.
I like the idea of different weapons, but then without it affecting gameplay.

Gary_Savage
10th Mar 2008, 20:42
I quite liked the homogenous weapons. It did some justice to the theme of corperate strength from the original. The NSF leader telling you about how the state was trying to weaken the individual with taxes and the decline in self employment made a lot of sense when you considered how much of a monopoly it would have taken to have that assault rifle issued world wide as the standard.

While I like your point, I do think that even a monopoly would give a facade of choice; For instance, many large organizations create little organizations underneath them, all providing similar goods/services, thus giving the consumer the appearance that they are choosing from multiple companies. For instance, I was once walking near Times Square, in New York City, and while passing two sports goods stores (of different names, but which were in very close proximity) I heard someone say that those two, and at least another store nearby were under the the same company, and that s/he (I cannot remember) cannot understand why they give customers the appearance that they are buying from different stores. The stores even sell very similar stuff, this person went. Also, in case (I cannot tell) we have a prequel to DX1, then the monopolizing organization of DX1 will still need to be putting up a facade of choice in the lead-up to the period in DX1. This is why I would expect at least a few changes, from faction to faction. For example, one faction might be using shotguns and another one sawed off shotguns, one faction using M-16/AK-47 type longer assault rifles, and another using assault rifles with their barrels sawed off or maybe even Uzis (I would like to see the grandfathers of the triads using Uzis, if we have a prequel; the monk in DX1 mentioned these grandfathers). Nothing extreme, just a few tiny touches, maybe even mostly-to-entirely cosmetic, just to create some factionalized weapons. Of course, I still think it would be fantastic if the game's skill system discriminated between using long barrels vs. sawed-offs; then I would be able to role-play a CQB expert (clears a building from the inside), or a long range marksman (clears a building from the outside).



I may have misread some of your post, and your jetpack idea does seem logical. I was tempted to suggest it as a very expensive/rare biomod until your idea came along. I'm still opposed to them as a whole, but compromises are usually the ideal solution.

O, I figured if enough people wanted it, then this might keep everyone happy. I certainly do not want to be a mech-augmented to the point that I don't look human from a mile away (unless the devs give me a compelling reason otherwise), let alone have to drag a jetpack with me at all times, into cafes, and labs and places where people and equipment (maybe even my buddies) can get hurt from the jet exhaust. I do not want a jetpack as a biomod, either. Having one or more limited situations where one path used the jetpack, while another path used some other item/tactic, I thought would satisfy everyone. Just my thoughts.

Gary_Savage
10th Mar 2008, 20:58
I'd like it if the Chinese army used a different assault rifle than the American Army. But why would they get suspicious if you have a different kind of assault rifle? Don't you think the lack of an uniform is more suspicious :P
And gangmembers (or terrorist forces) wouldn't all use the same kind of weapon, so it wouldn't work there.
I like the idea of different weapons, but then without it affecting gameplay.

Actually, I meant what if you were seen in China, in a gang controlled neighborhood, with a weapon that was clearly not among that local gang's weapons of choice. That should set off alarms. Or perhaps you pretended to be a private contractor from America, say, visiting Versalife in Hong Kong; I think the guards should get suspicious if your sidearm looks like something a European military officer would carry, rather than a weapon popular among private citizens in the US. Of course, this example is exhagerated, but you see my point?

As for different looking weapons affecting gameplay, I tried tried to hint at what I was suggesting here:

Of course, I still think it would be fantastic if the game's skill system discriminated between using long barrels vs. sawed-offs; then I would be able to role-play a CQB expert (clears a building from the inside), or a long range marksman (clears a building from the outside).

You know, it might actually be possible for players to specialize between causing a little damage per bullet, but pumping out a lot of bullets (users of full barreled guns), and causing a lot of damage per bullet, but avoiding fire when reloading (sawed-off users).

gamer0004
11th Mar 2008, 16:44
But the point is that there is no special kind of weapon for Europians or Amaricans. And even if there was, do you really think a Chinese would know the difference? When you come in Germany as a Dutch officier they probably wouldn't even notice you using a different kind of pistol than the Dutch army uses.

mouse
11th Mar 2008, 17:00
I think people would always get 'suspicious' when they see a heavily armed man prowling and skulking in their neighbourhood, regardless if the weapon is a local or foreign design. I definately would...

And if you want to infiltrate a group, you should steal one of their uniforms, as already said...

Gary_Savage
11th Mar 2008, 21:33
But the point is that there is no special kind of weapon for Europians or Amaricans. And even if there was, do you really think a Chinese would know the difference? When you come in Germany as a Dutch officier they probably wouldn't even notice you using a different kind of pistol than the Dutch army uses.

Perhaps that won't be noticed, under normal circumstances. Think back the the first Versalife mission in DX1, though. You can find a data cube mentioning the appearance of a person, at the facility, fitting JC's description. Now what if you introduced yourself as an American contractor (I hope you remember mentioning yourself as a contractor to an employee), but you were wielding a weapon that was common in Europe (so the weapon is not American, nor obtained locally, in China), then I would want the employee who sees the gun to freak out and call security. If you have an American, or a Chinese weapon, however, then no one should care about your attire, since you are an outside contractor. The difference in the weapon could just be color, or barrel length, or calibre (and the consequences of things like these, if the physics allows it), just something that can be noticed. I think it would be fun if the guy in the coat who first receives you at Versalife's research level lets you walk around with an American or Chinese weapon, but orders the troops on you if you take out a weapon from somewhere else.

(The above was only to show my point; yes, I do remember that JC went to France long after that level.)


I think people would always get 'suspicious' when they see a heavily armed man prowling and skulking in their neighbourhood, regardless if the weapon is a local or foreign design. I definately would...

Well, thinking back to the first NYC mission in DX1, the NSF were handing out guns to everyone. Now, say someone saw you with a foreign rifle, and decided to inform the local militia men, knowing that you were not from among them. That would spell trouble for you. If you had a locally popular weapon, however, most people would just take you for another NSF (and let you by) even is they disliked you.


And if you want to infiltrate a group, you should steal one of their uniforms, as already said...

I somehow missed the talk about stealing uniforms, though that would be very cool. Perhaps the Hitman people can lend a hand.

gamer0004
12th Mar 2008, 16:21
As an American contractor, don't you think it would be suspicious if you'd be armed?
Besides, you're a visitor at VersaLife, not a contractor. And I believe you are only a contractor or visitor or whatever down in the labs, not at
Versalife itself. And I simply hacked the computer so I wasn't a contractor at all ;)

And like I already said, there is no weapon that's common in Europe or America. There are hundreds of pistols and there is not one regular pistol.

mouse
12th Mar 2008, 17:12
the point is, that people will get jumpy if you openly wear a weapon. If you want to stay casual, hide your equipment to not to raise any questions

Gary_Savage
12th Mar 2008, 18:30
As an American contractor, don't you think it would be suspicious if you'd be armed?
Besides, you're a visitor at VersaLife, not a contractor. And I believe you are only a contractor or visitor or whatever down in the labs, not at
Versalife itself. And I simply hacked the computer so I wasn't a contractor at all ;)

I thought I could walk around wielding a weapon at Versalife (I lost my recent savegame, so I cannot verify now), so I thought DX3 would not mind my brandishing a weapon.


the point is, that people will get jumpy if you openly wear a weapon. If you want to stay casual, hide your equipment to not to raise any questions

I definitely remember sporting a weapon at Versalife's research level 1. This is where I think a weapon with gang colors/regional identifiers would make a difference.



And like I already said, there is no weapon that's common in Europe or America. There are hundreds of pistols and there is not one regular pistol.

I was thinking about a simplified world where you do not have hundreds of makes of weapons (i.e. different manufacturers and models), but not a world where one design for each weapon permeates everywhere (as in DX1). That way each region can have a different look/functionality for each type (or at least one type) of weapon.

Of course, all this could be because of my overdosing on books about Afghanistan, where some special forces who carry out work in direct support of a larger force have used American weapons (e.g., around Bagram Air Base), while special forces which had a mission to hide among, and work with, the locals (e.g., the first A Teams into Afghanistan) used locally popular weapons. In any case, it looks to me that regionally identifiable weapons will not be hugely popular for this game.

Blade_hunter
19th Mar 2008, 23:17
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5782/guns4ja3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

New guns !
The first gun is a gun acts as a law of DX 1 but it's smaller than its previous model and you can carry more of it. It makes a good dammage but the draw back of its weapon is you need to change the weapon after use (it acts as a reaload) and the rocket is unguided.

The second is a compact rocket launcher, it acts as a rifle but it fires rockets. It can fire homming missiles, but its override time is longer than the GEP gun and it do less dammage. This weapon is perfect to destroy some little bots and enventually the bigger bots.

The third is a plasma cannon it acts like a rocket launcher (it has small splash dammage area and it's more effective against mechanized targets) This weapon does less damage than a normal rocket launcher, but it's main advantage is it's rate of fire and it's versatility.

SemiAnonymous
20th Mar 2008, 01:39
So, I'm really liking the idea of remote detonated mines. They would be fantastic, I've always been an ambush player, but my extensive traps have been ruined by those stupid NPC's wandering past a LAM and setting everything off.

Mand'alor The Unholy
24th Mar 2008, 00:13
I think that there should be multiple types of weapons. Like more than just one type of pistol, or rifle, or smg, etc. DX1 had some good weapons, but not enough variants of them. Someone posted that they should have some look alike models of todays guns, and I tried to find the posters name again but couldn't so I apologize, and I totally agree. Some weapon models do last a long, long time. Look at the M1911. Very old design. I also agree that different nationalities in the game should use different weapons. For example, Germany currently uses the G36 in their military now. So if Germans were a nationality in the game why then shouldn't they use the G36? It would be a good feaure adding immersion. BTW, don't forget about Gunther. I can just see him using a G36. Also, the guns should be modifiable like in DX1 but also, extend that more. Add a system sort of like the one in Crysis where you can add a grenade launcher or laser sights or a silencer and make them visible mods that you can possibly see your character adding in-game. I found it a bit ridiculous that my silenced gun had no silencer attached to it in DX1. I'd like to see lots of weapon mods in addition to the already existing ones from DX1. Maybe you can add different parts of your gun that add functionality like different types of silencers and lots of different types of ammo, or different scopes. You know, very modified weapons. Some that fit some guns some that don't. I would like to see lots of variety and customizability.

IceBallz
24th Mar 2008, 11:27
Gunter was Dutch !!! So he would use Steyr AUG !!! :lmao:

gamer0004
24th Mar 2008, 12:39
I thought Gunther was German or from Austria or something like that. He doesn't have a Dutch accent anyway :P
Dutch is not German! Steyr is an Austrian brand BTW. Holland did use Steyr guns during WW2 (during the 8 days we fought), but with a different loading mechanism.

GruntOwner
24th Mar 2008, 13:54
Whereas it would add to the atmospherre/feel slightly, there's still the clutter issue. Having 3-4 assault rifles, all with almost identical stats and purposes, just a bit different asthetically or 5% more/less than another model will make me feel like I'm playing a tom clancy game, with more weapons than is necessary. And the reason that some several products can all stem from a single firm is to target the different classes. All washing powders in the UK, even the retailer's own brand, stem from 2 companies who do so to allow something like lenor for the higher class and daz for the lower. One of the main things going on in Deus Ex was the culling of the lower class through the virus, and weapons are hardly something that you're going to make a whole weapon for. a civilian suitable conversion of the weapon if it's a military thing like the TAVOR maybe, but if someone were to make the OICW cheap to mass produce, easy to import/export and generally the best option for anyone looking for a weapon of that purpose, most firms would be driven out of the market by the monopoly. Street variations might be an interesting twist on a few levels, but if I went through the whole game cherrypicking my weapon, then eventually I'd start comparing it to an RPG in the bad way. The way in which everything I've done to my favourite weapon becomes futile because there was already a rifle to rival it as it stands for my purposes. I think the developpers should focus on a universial wepaon for every role, then once the game is going through the final polishes and they have a basic template program to write weapons without any real fuss, only then start adding additiional types for it.

17evans17
24th Mar 2008, 16:57
Longs there is plenty of weapons and variety I don't mind. Just as long as they don't do the universal ammo thing again, which i thought was a gd idea at first but then I found there wasn't much around and my ammo would be gone before I know it.

A good weapon I reckon would be like the O.M.E.N off Goldeneye rogue agent. Where one shot and the enemy would be vapourised. It would be one of those weapons you get like towards the end of the game and only has limited uses.

GruntOwner
24th Mar 2008, 19:41
Bit futile given that a well placed 10mm slug will drop anyone. I'm all for high tech prototypes of +2 own but something that quite literally vapourizes enemies? Bit too sci fi for my liking. Then again, a grenade that ionizes the nearby atmosphere, super heats it and control it with a magnetic field to reduce colateral, aka, a plasma grenade, I can certainly see bebefit/humour in using. As a long term weapon I think the power consumption would be a problem for uber weapons, not as much as today due to the nano tech allowing faster reactions, but then you take into account that nano-weave kevlar would be commonplace.

Blade_hunter
3rd Apr 2008, 22:03
For me each different weapons have differents stats and uses even if they are 2 pitols or 5 assault rifles each coutry mades weapons and have a sort of phylosopy with the manner to use the weapon, some assault rifles are bullpop style some others have the clip under the cannon some others have the clip on the left side of the gun, some assault rifles can add an under barrel grenade launcher some others have this item already with, some others can use an under barrel shotgun ...
But in DX we can add some futuristic weapons like a laser assault rifle (hitscan weapon not like starwars rifles ....), a plasma rifle acts as an assault rifle with plasma balls .... or make a new function to assault rifles like an underbarrel boltcaster, a RPG launcher, a flare thrower, a stake launcher ....

Chemix
8th Apr 2008, 01:22
I'd like for "unconcious" to register in the games plot. I pratically tranq darted through the whole game and people acted as if I was a murderous lunatic, I was only being cheap and humane. Okay, so I did hurl Chow off the roof after I darted her, but I'd end up killing her anyway. I found it most useful to use tranq darts on MiBs as they didn't explode and I could collect their nice weapons. I like how Crysis handled the darts in it that the gun synthesized tranquilizer over time and it worked almost instantly, but the inability to remove the gun from the downed target, and their 60 second wake up call made it more of a time boost than a take down machine and you always ended up killing them anyway.

Vasarto
8th Apr 2008, 01:53
I'd like for "unconcious" to register in the games plot. I pratically tranq darted through the whole game and people acted as if I was a murderous lunatic, I was only being cheap and humane. Okay, so I did hurl Chow off the roof after I darted her, but I'd end up killing her anyway. I found it most useful to use tranq darts on MiBs as they didn't explode and I could collect their nice weapons. I like how Crysis handled the darts in it that the gun synthesized tranquilizer over time and it worked almost instantly, but the inability to remove the gun from the downed target, and their 60 second wake up call made it more of a time boost than a take down machine and you always ended up killing them anyway.


Hey that IS a great idea! I love it!

Anyway I want a bigger Selection of smaller weapons please. Sure the Big guns in Deus Ex 1 where great bug I do not in any way..want the game to revolve more around the bigger machine guns and shot guns explosives ect.

So In order to make it even for every Bigger gun they have I want a smaller weapon. ..here are a few ideas of what I would like to see.

1.Police night stick...those things police use these days to beat people.
2.bring back pepper sprey...ya..its pretty much useless but its still cool.
3.Stun Prod-Bring that back
4.Stealth Pistol
5.Taser Pistol-Shoots a electrice Bullet that can taser people from a distance AND it also acts as an emp for "Smaller" electronical devices like camara's and
minibots.
6.Black Katana-Just becuse
7.ChainSaw....Just kidding! That would really puggen Diss me off!
8.Brass Knuckles-Have a very simple yet effective Right or left Punch
with this weapon. Also have it so that enemy's can attack you as well.
9.Crowbar-Bring that back please
10.Net Gun-A small gun that fire a net that wrappes around the enemy's arms and leggs and ties them up. They would Squirm for a bit than just give
up after a while.

Conspiracy Theorist
8th Apr 2008, 02:21
I'd like to see Deus Ex 3 kick off a whole new series of games that takes as its main premise the devolution of society into a post-apocalyptic free-for-all where the necessity of fending for oneself has led the human race to differentiate into various tribes each of which bases its identity around their own specific style of punji-stake warfare.

:rasp:

To be honest, I hardly even remember the weapons from the games. I just didn't pay that much attention to them. Seems odd to me that they got as much attention as they apparently did. I just so loved the story and ambiance.

Chemix
8th Apr 2008, 09:42
Real weapon selection ideas:

Knife- Shortest range, highest anti organic damage, directional attacks and lunges would be nice

Crowbar- In the first game the crowbar was a space waster, whereas the baton folded up and had a higher damage value. Seeing as one appeared as plastic, or possibly just hollow metal, and the other was a solid iron/steel bar, I'd expect the crowbar to do more damage. I'd also like to be able to pry open doors with it, and whacking boxes and doors to pieces seems relatively inconvenient versus using the crowbar to pry things open.

Baton- This should be in the starting inventory as it's basically the DX knight stick. I also wouldn't mind at the least some directional attacks so it isn't just "whack whack whack whack whack, arrrrg" Hitting them in the head from both sides or 2 whacks to the back should knock them out.

Mini Crossbow- Should be, as in the first game, presented as an option in their first mission. Tranq darts should be recognized by the storyline as non kills, and should work faster, with a supply of 4 at a time synthesized by the gun itself that would build when it lacks serum, so after fire a shot it starts synthesizing a replacement ( which takes a little while, not a minute, maybe 20-30 seconds). Dart darts should cause localized high damage to organic persons, but do very little not non organics, unless you hit it in some oddly not bulletproof glass eye lens thingy. Electric darts would be interesting to see, acting as tazers for humans, but damaging electronics as well. I imagine that in such times someone would probably come up with an accelerant that could be delivered through a dart to cause targets to burst into flames, highly inhumane and hopefully with story noting it.

Civilian Standard 12-Gauge shotgun: need I say more? oh and possibly a one time chance to pick up a home made silencer ala No Country for Old Men

AA-12: Automatic military grade shotgun, 20 shells per magazine, tight spread fire for accuracy and alternative grenade shells, possibly interchangeable with tear gas grenades that would also work the same was as ammo.

Uzii: Self Explanatory

KRISS: Low recoil .45 caliber SMG, what more can I say?

9mm Pistol: Back to Basics, but this time with upgrades like silencers (that work to suppress the muzzle flash and escaping gas noise, but cannot hide the sound of the hammer coming down on the cap, the "phwwwt" sound from movies is the sound of the airsoft guns being used) and laser sights.

Desert Eagle: The heavier firearm of the merc and civilian gangster.

The Revolver: For playing dirty harry style

I'll be back with more

Gary_Savage
8th Apr 2008, 09:48
I like these ideas, but not the part about the dart gun synthesizing its own ammo. I would rather have to pick up ammo from crates, closets, and NPCs.

GruntOwner
8th Apr 2008, 15:13
9mm won't be included because they suck when 10mm is already on the rise, which really does cause questions concerning the IW desing team, the desert eagle is a noisy, heavy, unreliable, 6 round clip piece of crap which would only ever be used by the uneducated, people with fertility issues or people committting executions. Revolvers are outdated as it is so who's really gonna want a crude inefficient weapon like them when they would be much better served to be qilded and put on display with no firing mechanisms.
People seem to find it difficult to grasp that real weapons won't be used, so let's make sure everyone is now aware that as a near furture setting, they won't be using outdated crap like the uzi when the spectre has already been in service for a while and has 50 rounds to a normal clip. The same calibre as an uzi. If the game needs to make weapons that appeal to modern firearm fanatics because they bear a slight resemblace to madern weapons to sell then the design team have failed. The weapons need to be interesting in their own way. The combat shotgun was a drumfed piece of joy that didn't directly resemble any weapons in particular but was still disinguishable due to the fact that is was a good weapon and the sabot rounds helped. The pitol was small, effective and plentiful ammo, so it was memorable. The assault rifle was just... Next question please, and the GEP gave rocket launchers a good name. This idea that throwing in thing that resemble modern things is beyond astounding and frankly I worry about it some times. The game isn't modern. Vasarto, I had you on my list of "intelligent people to pay attention to" until I saw that katana statement. Just saying.

Vasarto
8th Apr 2008, 15:25
How about new ammo for the Mini Cross Bow! It could fire a special electrice
bolt that could take out small electrical things like minibots and camaras or electricute people like the stun prod. So it would be like hitting people with the stun prod from a distance. Or we could have a dark that could paralyze people. They could still be awake just not able to move for a really long while.
Or have deadly posion that would just straight off kill. Bring back the flare darts and make them last longer.Finnaly an exploding dart would kick alot of butt as well.

Chemix
8th Apr 2008, 19:38
I like these ideas, but not the part about the dart gun synthesizing its own ammo. I would rather have to pick up ammo from crates, closets, and NPCs.

It would only synthesize tranquilizer, all other darts would need to be picked up, the idea is that the only excuse you have to kill someone is too little time, which puts more weight on killing, and makes non-lethal measures both more and less easy, depending on the situation.

As for the rant on how it shouldn't use current day weapons and the 10mm, 1 mm isn't going to change the stopping power of a bullet, because unlike in games, people don't have health points, they have blood and vital organs and when shot, with anything above a BB-gun it's going to cause internal trauma and massive bleeding. So if someone is going to be downed by a 9mm, being downed by a 10mm is a no brainer, and it works in reverse as well. We've been using the m16 since a bit before VIETNAM, albeit we've upgraded it allot and there are newer weapons available, that doesn't mean that everyone will own them or that every agent will be afforded the bleeding edge when they already cost so much and an older gun does the same job just as effectively.

The Uzii isn't so much a specific weapon in this case, but a basic gun that stands for a series of relatively cheap, street sold (not particularly legal), SMGs. How many shady characters on the street are going to be able to afford a KRISS, or ammo for it? Various revolvers are still the gun of choice for some despite being around for hundreds of years, because they kill (or can kill, they are a tool, not the murderer themself) and are a symbol of death to potential victims.

As for the Assault Shotgun, it closely resembles a riot shotgun from South Africa, as well as many riot guns. The Sniper Rifle has it's obvious ties as do many of the less exotic guns in the game.

Also remember, this game isn't post Deus Ex, if anything it appears to be a prequel.

GruntOwner
8th Apr 2008, 20:45
1mm makes a lot of difference at certain velocities and ranges. The EM2 was designed shortly after WW2 and it was the first ever bullpup weapon. It was turned down because it used 7mm rounds, .62 smaller than the recently accepted NATO standard. And I'm not saying don't draw inspiration from real world wepaons, it's just seeing a weapon blatantly ripped off from another real world weapon seems so cheap given how unique the DX weapons were. I want to see a weapon for every role, not a weapon for every cliche that gained it's fame from ignorance and movies. This is an understandable concern when you look at the statistics of a desert eagle which everyone seems to be so "pro" about. I'm almost glad that people assumed that the bond film, whichever it was, was lying about rocket bullets or the internet would be full of gyroc fanbois.

Gary_Savage
8th Apr 2008, 20:58
It would only synthesize tranquilizer, all other darts would need to be picked up, the idea is that the only excuse you have to kill someone is too little time, which puts more weight on killing, and makes non-lethal measures both more and less easy, depending on the situation.

It's still unrealistic to the point that it will ruin my suspension of disbelief. Also, I liked, in DX1, hitting multiple enemies with darts, in rapid succession, besides hitting the same target with multiple darts, just for the fun of it. I also like picking up the darts that missed their targets, and ended up on walls and ceilings. Further, I do not wish to loose the joy of coming across/stumbling onto those shiny green (or whatever color the DX3 version might use) things (tranqs) that make a non-lethal take-down.

Chemix
8th Apr 2008, 22:16
I also enjoyed that, though perhaps we could come to a compromise, dart casing ammo would be needed, and you would only need to synthesize more (over a longer period of time) if you completely ran out of tranq, and you'd still need the casings, and synthesizing tranq isn't exactly something unrealistic when people are walking around with fully robotic limbs that they chose over their organic originals.

Gary_Savage
8th Apr 2008, 22:48
Sounds workable, if no one else has any complaints.

Vasarto
9th Apr 2008, 03:35
Instead of the Normal 9mm hand gun as a standered issue gun and the normal Pistol. Make it a Golden Desert Eagle!

Chemix
9th Apr 2008, 11:06
I don't think a desert eagle will ever be standard issue, or that a golden one will ever be even supplied to an agent or soldier except as a sort of beyond medal of honor status piece.

GruntOwner
9th Apr 2008, 14:05
The desert eagle is an awful weapon whose only benefit is cliche and astheitc purposes. How many times must this be pointed out before people actuallt take it in?

Chemix
9th Apr 2008, 16:27
says the person who thinks a 10mm is going to be SOOOOO much better than a 9mm for a cop... though I agree that the desert eagle is overrated, it's not a bad gun, it's just not a .45 caliber revolver in the hand of Dirty Harry. I can see desert eagles on the street with the "gangsters" and drug dealers.

GruntOwner
9th Apr 2008, 16:58
Under normal curcumstances 1mm makes very little difference, but then you take intoa ccount the velocity of the bullet and the range. If you want basic physics to be explained to you, go find a science teacher but until that time don't assume that calibre sizes are only releveant with a health system. A 50.cal sniper round can kill people by hitting them in the foot through sheer shock alone. 10mm is the way forward and 50.cal pistols are for those with compensation issues.

Blade_hunter
9th Apr 2008, 17:05
Hum, the golden eagle is the Duke Nukem's weapon (In manhatan project and DNF)...

The bullet diameter is not the only thing that can change the damage of a bullet, the length, the form and the mass can change the efficiency of a bullet against one kind of target and the recoil of the gun ...

Why we have only one kind of pistols, we can use some kinds of them to have more than one pistol and more than one play style

We can use:
5.7x28 mm, 9x19 mm, 10x25 mm Auto (as DX 1 uses), 11.43x23 mm (.45 Auto) and 12.7x33 mm (.50AE) handguns
A laser and a plasma pistol is welcome :)

Eventually if someone want revolvers; we can add
38 Special, 357 magnum, 500 Magnum revolvers

Making this most players are content because they can found and use a gun that matches with each player's style ...

Each handgun have some fire mods, functions ,upgrades like a flash light, a scope, a scilencer, laser sight, maybe an underbarrel single shot flare gun, dart gun, plasma shot (like the PS 20 in DX 1 but under the handgun) an ammo counter (sort of little computer) and maybe other things ....

Ok this needs to made more items but it can made more choices on our weapons beacause each one have their strategys and uses and some kind of ammo ....

Chemix
9th Apr 2008, 19:53
I'm not saying that the 10mm bullet isn't better than the 9mm, I'm saying the difference is negligible in an urban environment with lots of civilians around. This isn't the middle of an empty war zone where you're going to need your pistol to hit a target over 100 meters away.

GruntOwner
9th Apr 2008, 21:04
/ah, your concern is now valid, though it would still make sense that as a standard issue pistol iot would be 10mm as it would have to be capable of frontline combat as well, otherwise it isn't really standard issue. And as much as the idea of having a highly specialized pistol appeals to me briefly, it would only justify the inclusion of about 30 odd unnecerssary weapons to suit taken roles. It really comes down to just what tech level we're working with, so until we have more on that, this thread can only really serve as a place for what roles we want wepaons to fit/what features, not the specifics we all seem to be posting.

Vasarto
9th Apr 2008, 21:12
The desert eagle is an awful weapon whose only benefit is cliche and astheitc purposes. How many times must this be pointed out before people actuallt take it in?

How about this gun than!

THE WILDEY MAGNUM is one of the most powerful handguns in the world! That's why this one is in my top ten. With the calibre .45 Wildey Magnum it surpasses the .454 Casull in power. The bullet is 250 grains and its speed is 1730 fps. This enormous weapon weighs about 1980 grams and the capacity is 7 rounds.


http://www.roger-raymond.tmfweb.nl/wildey.jpg

Or this 60 Cal. Handgun.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9lzri8dn7p0

Blade_hunter
9th Apr 2008, 23:36
This weapon is hell JC need his muscular aug to control the recoil of this weapon :D
A big monter pistol could be fun ^^

For me they are not useless at all because for exemple in DX 1 we have the stealth pistol and the standard pistol
The stealth pistol has low recoil, is less accurate, is scilenced , a better rate of fire, do less damage, a less reload time and has a bigger clip size.
The standard pistol has big recoil, has a low Rate of fire, is more accurate, has a smaller clip, do more damage, have a bigger reload time and is noisy

These two pistols can use the same weapon mods, have the same range, use the same ammo and takes one slot

When I played DX and some of my friends played we don't used the same weapons in our inventory and one of my friends uses the stealth pistol and I use the standard pistol during the game
He wanted this pistol because it's scilenced, I prefered the other because it's more powerful.

If we add more kinds we can uses some of theses differences and add more
For exemple we can made a pistol that can't use a scope because it's too small, but it's main adventage is the burst mode and the clip size 18 per clip for exemple.
But I don't want perfect pistols; all pistols have adventages and weaknesses like the DX 1 pistols and like real life weapons
A powerful pistol have a big recoil and low rate of fire when you aim a head in action you have more chances to hit with a pistol with a big ROF than a powerful pistol with a low ROF and don't take the risk to reload during the combat.
I don't think made ton of weapons like the game devastation or C&C renagade and make only bad and good weapons are a good thing, because one weapon loose its utility when the new can be used and this is not a good approach. For me each weapon must be go with players style and uses we can make some balance between each; but on each situation one weapon is better than an other.
And the rare game does it before is DX, but we can add more stuff and if we carry for exemple 2 different pistols we can use them simultaneously if we wants to combat with 2 handguns...

Chemix
10th Apr 2008, 00:49
General rolls isn't that much fun the speculate on though, we can all jot down the basic categories of weapons in non far future or past setting video games:
Handgun/dual hand guns
Revolver-more powerful, less range, smaller ammo amount handgun
SMG
Machine gun
Rocket Launcher
Rifle
Sniper Rifle
Super Gun (plasma gun, the BFG, the super gravity gun, the redeemer, the TAC gun, etc. etc.)

Handguns can further be split into types based around those who use them
-Government 10mm/or 9mm or whatever mm is appropriate for a decade from now for your average super FBI agent equivalent. This gun could have upgrades for a laser sight and silencer, preferably in a system like crysis where such things can be removed as needed as they have advantages and disadvantages.
-Old Cop's Revolver, I see police, to this very day, carrying a revolver as their side arm and I can't see that changing unless kevlar (for example) becomes dirt cheap in 20 years and "gangstas" get smart enough to realize the value of body armor. In this category I could see 2 or more specific guns varying on the experience of the officer. I don't expect a fat cop with a donut in one hand to be toting a 357 in the other.
-Gangsters and drug dealers and mercs could probably carry a 9mm or 10mm handgun with some more "bossy" characters toting desert eagles, the more sneaky having mat-black finish and the ones who like to show off, the shiny silver version, maybe a gold one hidden somewhere as an easter egg.

A start

Blade_hunter
10th Apr 2008, 08:41
Why not some things sounds good because each corporation and country's uses some kind of weapons it can made some changes when we go on other places and makes more sens to have different kind of them.
The plasma rifle in DX is an experimental weapon but it's not a super weapon in the game it's powerless compared to the rocket launchers (LAW; GEP gun)
But if someone wants a super weapon i'm not against it; but we can keep the DX spirit and make a lot of weapons and give them some functions not much kind of them but only some with the most famous calibers and we can use different designs for most of them and as DX 2 mades use 1 - 2 weapons have a similar look but with a different ammo and maybe functions
For exemple the Desert Eagle exists with some caliber models like a .50AE and a .357 Magnum (It has more models but I take only 2 for the exemple)
These guns have the same design but not the same power and clip size, the ROF is different too because the length of the cartridge is not the same
In DX 2 we have 3 models of mako pistol same design but not same functions.
In DX 1 we have 2 pistols but they don't use the same design
This time we can extend it making a good mix and give some stuff

Chemix
10th Apr 2008, 10:46
I was just listing the generic categories in the start of my post, that almost every game has. I just couldn't think of a real "supergun" in DX, though as you said, the GEP gun was probably the most powerful in the game.

GruntOwner
10th Apr 2008, 14:42
DX 2 had 3 pistols, though one of them was effectively a normal pistol with a different light, one of them was a normal pistol and the other was a normal pistol with a scope, All these things could heave been achieved with weapon mods had they not been so simplistic about it. DX doesn't do multiple coorerations, I spent a lot of the game pointing out the strengths of the coorperations with a monopoly in certain fields. Bob Page's plan would not have succeeded had Versalife not been the only powerful company, and able to drive others out of the market, as he would not have gained indirect control of the human race through control of the market. That was what made DX great, and as said before, the only reason companies will make several products or branching companies will be for the purpose of targetting different classes. If there are 4 companies making assault rifles, then it isn't Deus Ex, it's Rainbow 6. Weapon strengths and weaknesses should come down to the weapon's role and the modifications. If you want a good mid range rifle, you take a battle rifle and equip a good scope or laser sight, not think "**** I should have picked one of those up in Hong Kong/whilst I was in the other gang's armoury." It will actually be more realistic/reflective of the themes to only have 2 weapons max for each purpose, and even then only for a few weapons, leaving more time to be spent on the things that matter. If I had the choice between 12 rifles or one rifle and a load of fluff on it and the rest of the story, like in DX with the emails about it, the blueprints, ect, I would take the one that was in depth and let the writers spread their wings in the intersting way rather than overlaiden the graphics team with the texturing and modelling.

Chemix
10th Apr 2008, 20:06
Creating a gun means; modeling it (1-5 hours, or more if it's a really different weapon), texturing it (2-6 hours), and then getting in game (5-10 hours for the first gun of a specific type, after the first gun is done, it's not very difficult to fiddle around with the first file to suit a new model so 1-2 hours for each gun of the already done gun type) Balance goes on till the game goes gold.

As someone that has worked in game design I can say that after creating the basic classes of weapon, it's not a massive project to make more.

I don't think that there should be dozens of assault rifles either, but more than one. Versalife isn't in control yet as far as we know, this is the world a while before DX1 begins. So 3 assault rifles is neither unrealistic nor overly time consuming, and the same goes for 3 pistols, so on and so forth. What else are the modelers and scripters going to do while all that writing is going on? Make a wall look more dingey and apply weird codes for secret text spraypaints throughout all the locations that you can only see with a certain aug?

I think what you essentially want Deus Ex 3 to be (speaking towards Grunt) is Deus Ex 1, but with an update.

GruntOwner
10th Apr 2008, 21:26
Judging by how innovative IW tried to be, and that's not very, you'll have to forgive my caution. I have no real objections to multiple weapons assuming they all have serious defining features beyong that which could be achieved through weapon mods. Otherwise it will just become like the later levels when you involenteerily gained a knife in your search for useful ammo, only even more bulky and limited in what to carry body wise. The only real way around this would be the popular opinion that inventory should be done in the style of NWN with the comparison's of their's to yours, and a drop feature in their inventory to quickly discard the crap. Not what they did in IW, because that was just awkward.

Vasarto
10th Apr 2008, 22:05
How about a gun that could change its shape. Not like that gun on..ehh I forget the video game preview but I got this idea from Devil May Cry 4.

The gun on that game is called Pandora..as in pandora's box. Its a briefcase that can trasnform into 666 diffarant guns(As its description sais.)

How about a gun like that? It's normal form could be some big bulky looking
gun and than With certain upgrades or Some type of device or special Item Like a blue power orb or alien tech device. Aug cannisters made for the gun ect.. It could transform into diffarant types of futeristic looking guns and have diffarant weaknesses,strengths and diffarant types of ammo that
would be required to use it.

However set limits to what it could do. Like it could and could not replace all the other guns. It can transform into diffarant kinds of guns but nothing too
simular to anything else in the game. That and getting ammo for it would be hard. OR better yet, make it so that the ammo is your bio electrical energy!

So it could have like these tubes that connect to your arm sucking out your bio electrical energy for its ammo! Like an Energy machine gun that can shoot through doors or a rocket launcher that takes half or all your energy and makes a charged shot out of it. Or a lightning gun like off of quake III arena or a rail gun or it could transform into a briefcase or item that it could
disguise itself



My OTHER idea is having the labtop hun from Perfect Dark 64 as a weapon. It looks like a labtop computer but transforms into a very powerful machine gun and than its alt fire is turning into a turret that could gun down enemy's as they get withing a certain range of it. All friendly units and allies ect cannot be targeted.


Or...How about plasmids...from Bioshock...that could be fun! :lol: ok im only kidding about that one but what about ehh....

A granade that when thrown it will have these spikes pop out of it making it look like a spike ball and than fire those spikes impailing and killing everyone they touch or just hurting them very very badly...best if used indoors.

Or a Sniper rifle that fires Tranq darts or emp shots that can take down bots from a long distance.

Or a ehh...umm..well if I think of more I will add them to my list.

Blade_hunter
10th Apr 2008, 22:26
In DX IW they wanted to simplify the gameplay and what are the results ?
DX 1 stay better than DX IW because DX 1 has more gameplay features and has a better inventory system (DX 1 has more but I think most of us know what)
The storyline is most of times limited by gameplay limitations.
If we add more stuff I don't think this can pull down the story because the weapons are a full part of the technology and add more stuff to the game
More stuff is more choice and more freedom
In DX 1 when you kill an ennemy you found in most cases one melee weapon and their main weapon.
But if we add more weapons we can made the game more realistic your ennemy can use 3 kinds of weapons
a main weapon, a backup weapon and a melee weapon and eventually a special weapon like grenades for exemple
Sometimes we can found an ennemy with only one weapon on him but some random inventory can give some good surprises ...
As I said on other threads It's not good to go back to rear because it's technologically possible and reduce the stuff makes the games more bad than good.
If in the game they made one rifle with 3 functions and can be upgradable and this gun is the only weapon in the game what the players were thinking about the game. The weaponery not make all game parts but we return back to Wolfenstein 3d if you want my opinion.
It's not because some games become more simple with less stuff than older game thats allows DX 3 must be simplified ...
look at empire earth the one is great, the second is medium and the third ?
SOF have something similar The fist is medium, the second is medium and the third is bad ...
And I don't to say one day the same thing as I said for Empire earth
Some kind of weapons allows more things, like tactics, like variety, choice (I always repeat) and can enrich the story with their technology.
In DX the weapons are a part of the story :) and it's easy to add these elements to the story because we don't need to find them ...

Chemix
10th Apr 2008, 23:01
Judging by how innovative IW tried to be, and that's not very, you'll have to forgive my caution. I have no real objections to multiple weapons assuming they all have serious defining features beyong that which could be achieved through weapon mods. Otherwise it will just become like the later levels when you involenteerily gained a knife in your search for useful ammo, only even more bulky and limited in what to carry body wise. The only real way around this would be the popular opinion that inventory should be done in the style of NWN with the comparison's of their's to yours, and a drop feature in their inventory to quickly discard the crap. Not what they did in IW, because that was just awkward.

IW was a consoles first game meant to milk the cash cow of Deus Ex 1. Much like The Matrix: Reloaded, it tried too hard to be philosophical without real content and it ended up simply repeating the choice presented in Deus Ex, only with the ending more clear and spelled out.

I never really happened to pick up assault rifles or big weapons by accident in deus ex, but the knives and crowbars and pepper spray and beers did wear on my nerves so I can agree that there is an issue there, but it won't be solved by simplifying each weapon down to one gun with some upgrades, you need to attack the heart of the problem, how inventory is collected. Lack of ammo caused me to switch to the lesser rifle throughout Crysis (the ak-74 or whatever it was), and the same could apply here.

Vasarto
11th Apr 2008, 02:13
Well I DO have a idea for weapons but in a diffarant way. I heard of a game where the guns you have. You open your inventory and your inventory is where your character opens his/her coat and the guns are lined up on the inside of the coat. As if in real life. So the guns on you,Items,enemies as well could be shown on that character. So if an enemy has a sniper rifle AND a hand gun. You will know about it if your close enough to them or If they have a gep gun and a Flamethrower than you would be able to see the guns ON that character. Same would go for your character as well. Of course your baggy coat WOULD conseal most of the guns and items but others like Sniper Rifles Gep guns,Plamsa guns and flame throwers would be seen on the back of the character.


This way you cant break into a secret research facility with a flamethrower on your character. Limiting the guns you can take into certain places. The guards would notice the weapons and attack you or try to get you to leave the gun at the front desk or something. Also if your walking around with the big guns it would impact the story. So if you like to walk around sporting your
big sniper rigle or Gep gun flame thrower or Plasma gun than in when you talk to certain people or read certain newspapers or datacubes emails ect. You
can hear people commenting on those things.

Example: You like to carry a Plasma Rifle around with you!
Walking around you hear gunther and Anna talking.

Anna:I hear our new agent has show alot of premise lately.


Gunther:Yes, but I do not trust this person.

Anna:You might be right. but none the less he seems to be doing well. I hear from the troops he is always carring around a plasma rifle. Some of them are quite nervous around him.

Gunther:Ah yes. It is a very impressive gun. I have tested it myself many times in the battle field and I shall soon own one of them myself.


Anyway something like that would be cool.

auric
11th Apr 2008, 07:17
I want to purpose some things ,take ideas for other posters that I think be good and some existing weapons


:lmao:

There are my purposal but I think most of the gamers will thinked "its too much and unuseful" but I think each weapon have rate of fire, rounds capacity, room space requirements, effects, uprgrades and efficiencys
in reality we can found some kinds of different stuff too but I want no real weapons, only realistic or logic effects, usefullness, and choice. :)

This sounds more suitable for the "Fallout" game.
:D


I agree with these, considering the time of the game as a prequel.



Melee and tools
Knives (Combat knife*, kitchen knives, throwing knifes*, swiss knife ....)
Machette, Scimitar, Saber, Katana
Crowbar*
Batons*
Hammer
Axe
Stun prod*
Riot shields
Extinguisher*
Pepper gun*
Darts* (able to throw by hand)

Pistols: weapons can be used with a shield
-Pistols*²+
-laser pistols
-Revolvers
-Minicrossbow*
-Flare pistols
-Taser (Like in SWAT 4)

Carabines and rifles: Weapons like two handed submachine guns, shoguns, and some rifles
-Sawed off shotguns*
-Assault shotguns*
-Submachine guns
-Sniper rifles*
-Assault rifles*
-Laser rifles
-Harpoon rifle

Heavy weapons: Weapons like rocket launcher, machine guns, grenade launcher, Flame thrower and other heavy stuff
-Machine guns
-Rocket lauchers*
-Grenade lauchers
-Flamethowers

In addition:
- ability to throw a weapon as a weapon rather than just 'drop' it.
- Unarmed combat
- Grab target from the back (to kill / KO / Interrogate / throw the person causes KO & hit anyone infront)
- From high place, jump down to kill (not sure if that can be done in the previous DX games)
When jump low enough, it just KO
- Vent shafts, Pop head outside a hole to see what's below.
- Knock swing doors open (locked Wood / Glass doors)
- KO targets in 1 hit (If a normal human can do that (Sam Fisher), surely not a problem for an augment.

Bloodwolf806
11th Apr 2008, 17:49
I know this is posted somewhere else, but its worth a re-shout :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgOKduU05t4

"Son of a...!"

:lol: :lol: :lol:

cudlla
21st May 2008, 14:41
In prevoious DX games, I realy missed unarmed combat. What do I need for Arm/Hand augmentation when I couldn't punch badguy to KO him:mad2: . It would be great to add it to weapons list. Dual Pistlos could be great to... to have something like reaction acceleration augmentaion (bulletime) and kill 4 villians befor first could fall on the floor.

Please, excuse my bad english.

Blade_hunter
21st May 2008, 17:08
For the English I have some difficulties :D and I try to do my best to correct my own errors.

For unarmed combat the idea was already proposed on some posts and it's a great thing for the game.
The only thing I dislike, but perhaps I'm not alone on this case it's the bullet time, I prefer to stay on some realistic scheme and don't change the time to combat with easiness my enemy. I prefer to stay with the speed Aug and go faster, than stay at the same velocity and see the environment going slower like a bullet time effect. It's just my opinion ....

GruntOwner
21st May 2008, 17:29
i'm inclined to agree, bullet time seems a bit too much of a "pure action feature" for me. The speed aug could be used for stealth against automated enemies, whereas trying to use bullet time for stealth would simply end up as a reaction hell hole which would impossible without it. Most augs had multiple uses.

Chemix
21st May 2008, 19:28
perhaps there is a middleground:

part of the problem with "just speed" is reaction time, when at high speeds it's very difficult for you to examine your surroundings without multiple passes, as it's just a bit of clarity in a blur of speed. So dodging bullets works theoretically, only if you're moving faster than the pivot of the gunner, and that's only parallel running, running at them, dodging gets nigh impossible till your at the point where from the hip is the best option, in which case you may have a chance.

So I suggest a compromise, speed increase with increase reflexes, shown by making projectiles much easier to see, weather by depth of focus, or some kind of glow or outline effect, and minor decrease in "time" scale, minor, so that you have enough time to see the bullet path and dodge it by inches, not by miles. You still have to think, but you don't have to run past the guards several dozen times just to get the general layout of an area without getting shot to death.

Blade_hunter
21st May 2008, 20:30
Why not but I think an Aug must keep the fact it can take some inconvenients, when I use the speed Aug in the game I agree the fact it's more difficult to control our character, but I think this drawback is a part of the strategy of this biomod, the game is slow enough to avoid some rockets without the mods even if in multiplayer the speed enhancement is one of the most useful biomods for dodging.
Hum I see the fact you want to propose an idea to satisfy each part like some of us that thinks when idea can be introduced to make each player satisfy with because they can play with or not...

I dislike this thing because I try this thing on a game close to DX on some facts it's Project Snowblind.
On this game it makes the game too easy because to avoid some difficulties, I used a mod like this in the game.

I say that because a normal speed Aug is a great advantage but it's not so easy to use and it's difficult to do everything we want.

I don't know but perhaps I think wrong .....

Chemix
21st May 2008, 22:21
Why not but I think an Aug must keep the fact it can take some inconvenients, when I use the speed Aug in the game I agree the fact it's more difficult to control our character, but I think this drawback is a part of the strategy of this biomod, the game is slow enough to avoid some rockets without the mods even if in multiplayer the speed enhancement is one of the most useful biomods for dodging.
Hum I see the fact you want to propose an idea to satisfy each part like some of us that thinks when idea can be introduced to make each player satisfy with because they can play with or not...

I dislike this thing because I try this thing on a game close to DX on some facts it's Project Snowblind.
On this game it makes the game too easy because to avoid some difficulties, I used a mod like this in the game.

I say that because a normal speed Aug is a great advantage but it's not so easy to use and it's difficult to do everything we want.

I don't know but perhaps I think wrong .....

It's not that you're thinking "wrong" it's that you have a difference of opinion, which is not nescessarily wrong, simply different or opposed to mine, and I, not being an almighty being, proof being that I haven't struck you down for your impotence, am certainly not incapable of being wrong.

The thing to me though, is that sometimes drawbacks simply eliminate the use of something worth while, because they overway the use of the biomod. For example, speed in Crysis seems like a great idea, but when trying to use it, you end up dead before you even start because it makes you vulnerable, exposed, and enemies don't have terrible action movie aim, though some times the aim was far better than it should have been for the conditions presented.

Fen
22nd May 2008, 03:31
The thing to me though, is that sometimes drawbacks simply eliminate the use of something worth while, because they overway the use of the biomod. For example, speed in Crysis seems like a great idea, but when trying to use it, you end up dead before you even start because it makes you vulnerable, exposed, and enemies don't have terrible action movie aim, though some times the aim was far better than it should have been for the conditions presented.

Like the gunboat which noticed that you brushed past a bush and headshotted you with its first bullet from 500 meters away.

While bullet-time is actually biologically plausable by upgrading mylenated nerve fibres, I dont want bullet time in the game.

Bullet-time has been done to death already. Im sick of it, and not using it is just like crippling yourself in a gunfight. I also dont think augs should give you that level of power they are meant to help you out, give you new ways to deal with situations, not make you invincible.

DXeXodus
22nd May 2008, 03:50
Bullet time would make the game way too easy. I think the 'middle ground' soloution posted by Chemix may work.

GruntOwner
22nd May 2008, 10:19
Chemix's suggestion sounds fairly reminiscent of force speed in the jedi knight games, and that basically became part of a routine which was always activated as soon as you knew you were going into a sabre duel. It had a drawback in that your force energy didn't regenerate during it's duration which meant you could be brought down to 0 force after a few pushes or other things that ultiamately result in you being gripped until your speed stops and you muster sufficient force to push them away, though in DX the biomod energy was non regenerative anyway, so balancing it to be an asset with several uses, rather than a routine buff might be difficult against other mods.

DXeXodus
22nd May 2008, 11:09
I am all for powerful biomods, but there has be be a system put into place that balances it... I think that is why they didn't make the bioelectical energy levels regenerate over time, but rather require biocells.

Blade_hunter
22nd May 2008, 12:38
this conversation give me an idea about biomods and weapons, because some biomods transform ourselves as weapons, but on previous games the idea is somewhat stop on a certain point.

I have many examples to propose with bio mods that acts like weapons

An energy blade on our arm, when activated it consumes our bio energy and can be used as a normal weapon

For an electrical biomod it can add electric damage on a melee weapon or make the stun prod more effective, with our hands it can be useful too. The biomod drains the bio energy only when we make some shots with a melee weapon or with our hands. after all it's an expansion of the electrostatic discharge biomod of DX 2

For a fire biomod we can make a mod that can heat a melee weapon like a crowbar, a wrench, a club or whatever and we can use to burn gasoline or other things can be burned with a mod like this

For a gravity control we can attract and throw some items we can use this biomod to walk on walls or other things

Some weapons can use our bio energy if we want something like this ....

We have some drones and other things, but I don't know if the idea is good or not :/ because I don't want to see oh it's something like bioshock and my proposal is somewhat identical and different.

sea
22nd May 2008, 12:41
One of the biggest problems with Invisible War is that it turns bio-mods and weapons into superpowers, essentially; the Spy Drone, for example, is basically a game-breaking "win" button. Deus Ex 3 needs to scale things back a bit; limit the amount of energy available, and have weapons and augmentations which are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. I don't want things that are ridiculously outlandish or unfeasible; Deus Ex is meant to be grounded in reality. No lasers, no particle beams, no chemical throwers, etc. Deus Ex has a few of these, but they are generally understood to be prototypes. If Deus Ex 3 is a prequel, then it shouldn't have any of them. If such things are going to exist, make them available in extremely limited quantities, or as unique, one-shot weapons.

A very important lesson that I remember taking from a published interview with a Deus Ex team member (I forget who, unfortunately) is that even if items themselves are useless or redundant, having them in the game fleshes out that game world and makes the player feel more unique, more alive, etc. The player has a vision of who they are when they play the game, an identity, a personality. Even if the lung capacity bio-mod is functionally the same as a suit that allows for that same ability, the player creates a distinction between them in his or her head. Following in this vein, ammo types absolutely need to stay, as they give the player more options in dealing with certain situations. Redundancy of skills and items is something that should exist in the world of Deus Ex; don't remove armour-piercing rounds just because you have explosives, and don't remove the stun baton just because you have a nightstick.

Blade_hunter
22nd May 2008, 16:44
The only little technology problem is the fact, the lasers weapons are coming soon on our real universe, the first of these is a blind laser, other lasers are used to help on our aim like the first game or on some realistic games and to guide some missiles.
We try now to make offensive lasers, some lasers have the ability to burn some things at a little distance even some lasers used as spot lights on some shows.
On DX 1 we have a plasma rifle and this rifle is a prototype, but on the sequel we don't see anything about this weapon, the high tech weapon is the railgun and some special weapon variations like the SMG that throws spider mines ...
Lasers weapons doesn't become a sort of star wars because lasers are hitscan weapons, like the primary fire of the UT ASMD or the Q3 railgun or laser weapons from C&C Renegade.
Laser weapons can keep a more conventional look unlike star wars or star trek weapons when a see the near future guns some of them have a look that can be a laser gun if we change some parts

And for the prequel / sequel state I don't want to be sure on this thing because the conversations about it, can be right and wrong, and prequels are already proposed by modifications for the first game.

I agree on the fact the game must be keep some diversity and the fact some items can have a similar action as a biomod it can be different on the manner of use it like the rebreather and the aqualung aug. they have the same function but their manner of using them are very different, their efficiency can be increased at a different manner and they can be used in a combination of each other to stay more longer underwater and I used them on the submarine base to discover some interesting things.

For the fact to get a various items even various guns of the same type some players have proposed this and the original game have some things like this but for the first game it was fantastic because we have some choices and when DX 1 were created it was new for an FPS, DX2 reduced some things, the armor items and rebreather aren't in the game. I want their come back with an other manner to use each item ...

MattB
25th May 2008, 16:15
Ideally I'd like to see weapons more along the lines of the original Deus Ex. While they were clearly fictional, they were close enough to real weapons. It was just one more thing that made the game more realistic and thus more immersive. For example, the 10mm pistol could easily be a S&W, Glock, or other real handgun. The Mako pistol in DXIW by contrast was anything but realistic.

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2008, 13:59
GEP gun (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire a 80 mm propelled rocket
Secondary fire: Fire a 80 mm grenade (maintain the fire button if we want a timed grenade)
Select fire: Unguided / Auto thermal tracking / Laser guidance / Radio control
Aim: Scope / Sight / laser sight / Computerized sight
Ammo: HE (300 DMG/1 m splash radius), WP (50 DMG/ 30 cm splash radius by explosion; 1.30 m by WP gas during 40 seconds), Cluster (150 DMG + 5 per metal pellets; 30 pellets per rocket ), EMP (25 DMG 500 DMG vs electonic devices)
Clip size: 4 rockets
Ammo max before us an other room slots 24 per kind of ammo

Accessories

-Sniper scope
-Laser sight (into this gun the laser can guide the rockets when the appropriate mode is used)
-Radio control kit
-Computerized sight (helps against moving targets and enhances the auto targeting devices)

Upgrade

-Clip expansion (6 per clip max)
-Reload upgrade (reduce half time when fully upgraded)
-Range upgrade (upgrades up to 30% of the max range)

Info

This weapon can't Overheat
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills 7 rockets before need repairs
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is an heavy weapon

Chemix
7th Jul 2008, 15:34
I can only hope that the GEP gun will look more... well... less INSANELY BULKY and HUGE, this time round. In DX it looked like the character was carrying a small refrigerator with a tube at the end.

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2008, 17:54
Assault rifle (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire 7.62x51 mm bullets
Secondary fire: Fire a 20 mm grenade
Select fire: single / burst / auto
Aim: Sight / laser sight / Night vision sight / Grenade launcher sight / Computerized sight
Attachment Silencer
Ammo 1: 7.62 perforating rounds (12 DMG) 7.62 antipersonnel rounds (17 DMG), 7.62 anti armor rounds (17 DMG)
Ammo 2: 20 mm HE impact grenades (100 DMG, 20 mm impact gas grenades (15 DMG; the gas reduce the stamina), 20 mm impact smoke grenade (15 DMG; large smoke)
Clip size 1: 30 rounds
Clip size 2: 5 shells
Ammo max before us an other room slots 1 300 per kind of 7.62x51 mm ammo
Ammo max before us an other room slots 2 50 per kind of 20 mm grenades ammo

Accessories

-Laser sight
-Hand grip (Improve the accuracy +10 % and reduce the impact from the recoil)
-Night vision sight
-Computerized sight

Upgrade

-Clip expansion (For bullets) (45 per clip max) (For grenades) (8 shells)
-Reload upgrade (reduce half time when fully upgraded)
-Range upgrade (For bullets) (upgrades up to 40% of the max range) (For grenades) (upgrades up to 20% of the max range)
-Damage upgrade (Only for bullets) (upgrades up to 25 % of bullet damage)
-Harmonic stabilizer (Improve the accuracy up to 20%)
-Recoil weapon mod (reduces the recoil up to 30%)
-Refire rate (Only for bullets) (upgrade the rate of fire up to 15%)


Info

This weapon can Overheat (Only with the silencer)
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills 55 bullets or 10 grenades before need repairs
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is a compact rifle weapon


I don't understand exactly what you want to say in your sentence

El_Bel
7th Jul 2008, 17:58
I can only hope that the GEP gun will look more... well... less INSANELY BULKY and HUGE, this time round. In DX it looked like the character was carrying a small refrigerator with a tube at the end.

I hope for the exact opposite. I want a HUGE GEP gun. It adds to awesomeness
"It was big. Really, really big. No, bigger than that. Even bigger. Keep going. More. No, more. Look, we're talking krakens and dreadnoughts for jewelry. It was big!" -Big furry monster flavor text

May i suggest the 577 Nitro Elephant-gun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ged4lz_Fw2Y) :)

Chemix
7th Jul 2008, 20:36
But where do you put this gun that's as big as a ****in fridge?

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2008, 21:01
Rocket rifle (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire a 35 mm rocket
Secondary fire: Fire an homing 35 mm Rocket when locked (Press the fire button and when the target is locked the rocket is automatically fired)
Select fire: Proximity / Impact / Timed
Aim: Sight, Scope, IR scanner (automatic)
Ammo: 35 mm HE rockets (DMG 120/75 cm splash radius), 35 mm EMP rockets (15 DMG/ 120 vs electronic devices), 35 mm AP rocket (200 DMG / 25 cm splash radius)
Clip size: 10 rockets in a Drum magazine
Ammo max before us an other room slots 70 for all kinds of rockets

Accessories

-IR scanner
-Hand grip (Improve the accuracy +10 % and reduce the impact from the recoil)
-Scope

Upgrade

-Clip expansion (14 per Drum max)
-Reload upgrade (reduce half time when fully upgraded)
-Range upgrade (upgrades up to 25% of the max range)
-Refire rate (Upgrades the rate of fire up to 30 %)


Info

This weapon can't Overheat
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills 22 rockets before need repairs
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is a large rifle weapon

El_Bel
7th Jul 2008, 21:21
But where do you put this gun that's as big as a ****in fridge?

In a magic backpack.. Really i couldn't care less.. Don't let realism get in the way of fun!! Imagine Gunter holding a mini version of the flamethrower..

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2008, 21:46
Armor Pulverizer System (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire a 20x185 mm flechette slug
Secondary fire: Sniper scope
Aim: Sight / laser sight / Computerized sight
Ammo: 20 mm perforating slugs (DMG 280), 20 mm explosive slugs (DMG 75 / 40 cm splash radius)
Clip size: 6 slugs
Ammo max before us an other room slots 150 per kind of 20x185 mm ammo

Accessories

-Laser sight
-Bipod (Improve the accuracy when crouched +15 % and reduce the impact from the recoil)
-Computerized sight

Upgrade

-Clip expansion (10 per clip max)
-Reload upgrade (reduce half time when fully upgraded)
-Range upgrade (upgrades up to 55% of the max range)
-Damage upgrade (upgrades up to 30 % of slug damage)
-Harmonic stabilizer (Improve the accuracy up to 30%)
-Recoil weapon mod (reduces the recoil up to 25%)
-Refire rate (upgrade the rate of fire up to 40%)


Info

This weapon can't Overheat
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills 16 slugs before need repairs
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is an heavy rifle weapon

jcp28
7th Jul 2008, 22:41
If there's a GEP, it should be much easier to hold than a damn LAW. LAWs take up a full space in your inventory in DX 1, yet you can only carry one at a time. The GEP-type weapon in DX3 should be bigger than a shotgun, but still more manageble.

Something that might also be useful is a pepper gun like in DX 1. I used it a couple of times to incapacitate small groups of enemies and then knock them out with tranq darts.

And flamethrowers should still be bulky. There's got to be some price to pay for carrying such a powerful weapon.

Chemix
8th Jul 2008, 00:02
I think the rocket launcher (GEP gun) should probably take after... a real rocket launcher design

AaronJ
8th Jul 2008, 00:35
I just don't want the same generic bull**** from IWar. OH MY GOD, ITS A MAG RAIL.

Blade_hunter
8th Jul 2008, 06:37
The GEP gun for me should be a big rocket launcher, we have some several reasons, If we take my own model with the characteristics displayed this gun have a loader, it uses 80 mm rockets, it have targeting devices, it's semi automatic.

In DX the LAW have big inconvenients, the main is we can't carry more than one LAW, it's unguided
The damage displayed is lower than the GEP gun in the game 100 DMG for the LAW, 300 for the GEP gun, the splash damage is bigger for the LAW than the GEP gun. The GEP gun is more a precision weapon and the LAW is a pure mass attack weapon.


I propose the rocket rifle launcher for guys that wants a compact launcher more suited for combat.

I will propose some different models for different kind of players and I want to propose My own model of the LAW, DX weapons, DX 2 weapons and new weapons.


Light Antitank Weapon (LAW) (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire a 96 mm HE unguided rocket
Secondary fire: Smart scope
Aim:Scope
Ammo: 96 mm HE rocket (the gun is a single shot weapon) (DMG 150 / 8 m splash radius)
Clip size: 1 shot only
Ammo max before us an other room slots 10 LAW can be carried in the same amount of slots

Accessories

-None

Upgrade

-None


Info

This weapon can't Overheat
This weapon can't be maintained (dropped after firing its ammo, to use an other loaded weapon that is ready to fire)
The secondary fire can't be customized (No other dire mods
This weapon is a light weight tube rocket weapon

Romeo
8th Jul 2008, 07:12
A Carbine (Single shot).

Assault Rifle (Burst fire).

Assault Rifle (Automatic).

Railgun (Solves the sniper situation).

Pistol choices. (One powerful, one balanced semi-automatic and one automatic.)

But more than anything else, what I'd really like to see is further customization, such as:

Chassis mods (Recoil dampening and handling).

Firing mechanisms (Change rate of fire, power).

Barrels (Accuracy).

Stocks (Accuracy when pulled to shoulder).

Magazines (Amount of ammo before a reload, assuming there isn't any universal ammo).

Scopes (Thermal/Black and white/Nightvision/Standard with varying degrees of zoom).

Accessories (Silencers, cooling units for automatics if universal ammo is in as well as all the oddities than simply don't fall under any other catagories).

And the ability to paint the guns. Just because. =)

Blade_hunter
8th Jul 2008, 13:24
Light Machine gun (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire 7.62x51 mm bullets
Secondary fire: none
Select fire: 500 rpm - 750 rpm - 1200 rpm
Aim: Sight / laser sight
Attachment Silencer / Under barrel cannon upgrade ( 2 Grenade launchers models, 2 Shotguns models, One speargun model)
Ammo: 7.62 perforating rounds (13 DMG), 7.62 antipersonnel rounds (18 DMG), 7.62 anti armor rounds (18 DMG)
Clip size: 100 rounds
Ammo max before us an other room slots 300 per kind of 7.62x51 mm ammo

Accessories

-Laser sight
-Hand grip (Improve the accuracy +10 % and reduce the impact from the recoil)
-Bipod (Improves accuracy in prone position)
-Silencer
-Cooling upgrade (Reduce the heat effect when we fire)
-Under barrel cannon (This removes the possibility to add some accessories like the hand grip)
-Turret (Put a turret in the ground and put the machine gun on it, it's not automated, but the accuracy is much higher than with other accessories)

Upgrade

-Clip expansion (150 rounds per clip max)
-Reload upgrade (reduce half time when fully upgraded)
-Range upgrade (upgrades up to 45% of the max range)
-Damage upgrade (upgrades up to 25 % of bullet damage)
-Harmonic stabilizer (Improve the accuracy up to 25%)
-Recoil weapon mod (reduces the recoil up to 40%)
-Refire rate (upgrade the rate of fire up to 5%)
-Cooling system (Upgrade the effect for the cooling system up to 20 %)


Info

This weapon can Overheat (When we use a silencer we can fire less shots)
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills and the weapon isn't overheated 75 bullets up to 230 if we use the lower rate of fire
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
The Under barrel cannon upgrade can be chosen between several models (Shotguns, Spearguns, Grenade launchers, Rocket launchers, SMGs, Flare guns, and many other under barrel guns)
This weapon is a light machine gun weapon (a bit bigger than a standard assault rifle)

Chemix
8th Jul 2008, 15:09
There should probably be a "prone" mode (laying on the ground to fire with utmost precision, also avoids fire that would hit you when crouched, good for ducking when just crouching isn't enough, more realistic for air vents as very few vents are actually tall enough to crouch through

EDIT: As a note, weapons having names might make them more memorable, manufacturer or otherwise.

Blade_hunter
8th Jul 2008, 15:45
Yeah the bipod is for a prone mode, thanks :) I always forget this word :/

I agree the fact we must add some names, like the GEP gun, the LAMs, the dragon's tooth, the stealth pistol, the mako pistol, etc
The only names in my suggestions is the "Armor Pulverizer System" or the "Rail driver"
or the "Dark falcon" in my pistol drawing.
I used many generic names because I don't wanted to give any reference with the reality and use existing weapons that forces us to copy them with their functions, with fictional weapons, we can make better or not but with an appropriate form, I wanted don't give names for an other reason is perhaps some names used in may suggestions sounds perhaps wrong to some players.
But perhaps the best thing is to try or something, but you have right the put names into weapons make them memorable like the Desert Eagle for example ....

Romeo
9th Jul 2008, 04:07
Yeah, except for the gun simply known as "The Halo Pistol". That gun was memorable even with it's generic name. Perhaps Eidos could let us name the guns. It would give us information on the weapons, AND give us something to do in the mean time.

GruntOwner
9th Jul 2008, 11:40
Whereas God's Sidearm would make a brilliant addition to the DX armoury, it might be a tad overpowered. Given that 20mm HiEx lived up to their name in the first, 12.7mm HiEx in pistol format would just send every other weapon to hell. And let's not forget that it would be standard equipment even for the rag tag terrorist bands.

http://unhalo.wikia.com/wiki/M6D_Pistol for those who don't get just how awesome the weapon was.

Blade_hunter
9th Jul 2008, 12:57
I have a question about secondary fires or fire mods of weapons

Most of primary functions in weapons are something standard, but in old games to have an other function with the same ammo, like the game Blood 1&2, the game Unreal (all series), the game SOF 1, the game GORE, to use the ammo in a different form or use always a separate ammo like most modern FPS to do the alternate function

The guns like the ASMD, the Flak cannon, the Eightball gun, the Pulse gun, The U2 shotgun, The U2 Rocket launcher (used in Snowblind too) uses the same cartridge in a different form for the alt fire mode.
For the games like SOF chaingun, the MPG, the flamethrower, the flare gun, the tesla cannon, the Death ray (Blood 2), Napalm launcher, SOF shrapnel thrower, the U2 assault rifle use to make the alt fire an Higher quantity of ammo to make this fire mod.
Example: the SOF chaingun fire bullets, but the secondary fire uses 10 bullets to fire the white phosphorous grenade.

Fen
9th Jul 2008, 17:30
I would like some weapons to be concealable weapons. In both the Deus ex games, there were areas where it was just not acceptable to pull out a gun. In IW, you had to deactivate your guns apon entering any club (god that got annoying).

Now seeing as I dont support this whole deactivation thing. I think it would be better if people would judge you depending on what your packing. Obviously if youve got a flamethrower strapped to your back, people arent going to willing to let you into nightclubs or public buildings. It would make sense not to let you in at all. However if youve got concealed throwing knives or a mini-crossbow hidden under your jacket, then people may not realise. Making assassinations of targets in public areas a little bit more of a challenge for the heavy weapon specialists and easier for the lighter weapons. (Heavy weapons get an easier time in straight up combat obviously, and this is Deus ex we are talking about, just because the bouncer says you cant go in, doenst mean you have to listen...)

robotwo
9th Jul 2008, 19:23
I would suggest two very nice weapons :3

Cerebral Bore:
fires a thrusted projectile which locks onto brain-waves and digs itself into the cranium of the victim , followed by triggering the explosive load.

RPC-Launcher (Rocket Propellered Chainsaw) :
fires a jet-propellered chainsaw , easily gets messy , easily refilled and re-used.

made for a more "subtile" approach :D

Blade_hunter
9th Jul 2008, 20:45
Derringer pistol (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire .45 ACP bullets
Secondary fire: none
Select fire: single shot / Twin shot
Aim: Sight / Scope
Ammo: .45 ACP rounds (15 DMG), .45 ACP +P rounds (18 DMG), .45 ACP electric rounds (14 DMG)
Clip size: 2 rounds (one per barrel)
Ammo max before us an other room slots 400 per kind of .45 ACP ammo

Accessories

-Scope

Upgrade


-Reload upgrade (reduce the time by 25 % when fully upgraded)
-Range upgrade (upgrades up to 55% of the max range)
-Damage upgrade (upgrades up to 35 % of bullet damage)
-Harmonic stabilizer (Improve the accuracy up to 15%)


Info

This weapon can't Overheat
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills 71 bullets
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is a small pistol with high caliber rounds (this a reliable weapon)



made for a more "subtile" approach :D

Fun ? :D

jcp28
10th Jul 2008, 02:29
I would suggest two very nice weapons :3

Cerebral Bore:
fires a thrusted projectile which locks onto brain-waves and digs itself into the cranium of the victim , followed by triggering the explosive load.


made for a more "subtile" approach :D

You've played Turok 2, haven't you?:) But that might have been used in some other game. Who cares. It was a hella imaginative weapon. AND it got the job done.:cool:

Blade_hunter
10th Jul 2008, 12:46
Heavy SMG (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire .45 ACP bullets
Secondary fire: none
Select fire: Auto - Burst - Semi auto
Aim: Sight / laser sight / Tactical sight
Attachment Silencer / Flash light
Ammo: .45 ACP rounds (14 DMG), .45 ACP +P rounds (16 DMG), .45 ACP electric rounds (12 DMG)
Clip size: 25 rounds
Ammo max before us an other room slots 400 per kind of .45 ACP ammo

Accessories

-Laser sight
-Hand grip (Improve the accuracy +20 % and reduce the impact from the recoil)
-Silencer
-Tactical sight
-Flash light

Upgrade

-Clip expansion (33 rounds per clip max)
-Reload upgrade (reduce 25% of time when fully upgraded)
-Range upgrade (upgrades up to 22% of the max range)
-Damage upgrade (upgrades up to 10 % of bullet damage)
-Harmonic stabilizer (Improve the accuracy up to 35%)
-Recoil weapon mod (reduces the recoil up to 40%)


Info
This weapon can Overheat (Only with the silencer)
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills 71 bullets
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is a large caliber sub machine gun weapon

Romeo
11th Jul 2008, 01:05
Whereas God's Sidearm would make a brilliant addition to the DX armoury, it might be a tad overpowered. Given that 20mm HiEx lived up to their name in the first, 12.7mm HiEx in pistol format would just send every other weapon to hell. And let's not forget that it would be standard equipment even for the rag tag terrorist bands.

http://unhalo.wikia.com/wiki/M6D_Pistol for those who don't get just how awesome the weapon was.

lol, I miss that thing. That thing was seriously how the west was won. You could take out hundreds of aliens with a bloody pistol.

Blade_hunter
11th Jul 2008, 12:51
Assault shotgun (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire 12 gauge shells
Secondary fire: none
Select fire: Auto - Semi auto
Aim: Sight / laser sight / Tactical sight
Attachment Flash light
Ammo: 12 gauge shot shells (20 DMG), 12 gauge slugs (24 DMG), 12 gauge explosive shells (30 DMG 28 cm splash damage), 12 gauge Tranquilizer shells (10 DMG, +60 tranq effect)
Clip size: 16 shells
Ammo max before us an other room slots 100 per kind of 12 gauge shot shells

Accessories

-Laser sight
-Tactical sight
-Flash light

Upgrade

-Clip expansion (22 shells per clip max)
-Reload upgrade (reduce 25% of time when fully upgraded)
-Range upgrade (upgrades up to 22% of the max range)
-Harmonic stabilizer (Improve the accuracy up to 35%)
-Recoil weapon mod (reduces the recoil up to 40%)


Info
This weapon can't Overheat (too slow rate of fire in auto mode)
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills 53 shells
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is a sort of assault rifle that fire shot shells

Blade_hunter
13th Jul 2008, 23:03
LAM (personal version)

Primary fire: Timed grenade / Timed mine
Secondary fire: Impact grenade / Proximity mine
Select fire: Combat Grenade / Tactical explosive
Ammo: LAMs (DMG 75, splash damage 240 cm splash radius)
Clip size: 1
Ammo max before us an other room slots 12 LAMs

Accessories

None

Upgrade

None


Info
In mine mode the mines can stick in most surfaces even on NPC's
The timed modes can set the time between 3 seconds up to 40 seconds
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is a sort of assault rifle that fire shot shells

I_R3m3mb3r_G3x
14th Jul 2008, 02:39
What about a multi-purpose weapon? It could function using plasma as its basis, and switch to different modes, such as:

- Rapid fire, similar to a machine gun
- Burst fire, similar to a shotgun
- Single fire, similar to a high-powered, accurate rifle
- Explosive, similar to a rocket launcher, but weaker

Of course, this would have to come in late in the game, or as some sort of special weapon requiring some real skills, but it's an interesting venture. Also, some more suggestions:

- Taser, for incapacitation (recommended time: 2 minutes)
- Explosive food; You can place a Soy snack on the table, but armed with explosives. When a poor, unexpecting sap happens to take a bite, BLAM!
- Fake Droid; You can generate a droid that, when created, will appear broken. When someone fixes it, it explodes, sending metal shrapnel everywhere, injuring nearby enemies and killing the repairer. As an added bonus, when these are overused, they will get smarter as to your use of them, but simultaneously reduce the likeliness of a real droid being brought out of an ion-induced "catatonic state." :D

Just a few ideas, mainly meant for the element of surprise. Obviously, none of these are meant to be upgraded.

Blade_hunter
14th Jul 2008, 12:38
Assault Plasma rifle (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire little plasma balls at good speed with a small splash area (19 DMG)
Secondary fire: Fire a continuous short beam (14 DMG) (pulse beam in single shot mode)
Select fire: Auto - Single shot - Overcharge (only available with the supercharger upgrade)
Aim: Sight / Laser sight / Sniper scope
Attachment Hand grip / supercharger
Ammo: Plasma chargers
Clip size: 40 plasma ammo (it provides 20 shots)
Ammo max before us an other room slots 200 per kind of plasma chargers

Accessories

-Laser sight
-Sniper scope
-Hand grip (Improve the accuracy +10 % and reduce the impact from the recoil)
-Supercharger (enables the overcharge mode of a weapon this in this weapons the gun fire 5 plasma shots at once and the rate of fire is 8x lower than the normal shots, the damage dealt is 5x the base damage)
-Cooling upgrade (allow to fire more cartridges in a little time)

Upgrade

-Clip expansion (25 shots per clip max)
-Reload upgrade (reduce 40% of time when fully upgraded)
-Range upgrade (upgrades up to 35% of the max range)
-Harmonic stabilizer (Improve the accuracy up to 35%)
-Recoil weapon mod (reduces the recoil up to 20%)
-Cooling system (Upgrade the effect for the cooling system up to 20 %)


Info
This weapon can't Overheat (the rate of fire was made basically to never overheat)
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills 74 plasma shots
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is a sort of assault rifle that fire plasma balls

Blade_hunter
15th Jul 2008, 00:02
Hyper Rotary Cannon (HRC) (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire 5.56x45 mm bullets
Secondary fire: none
Select fire: 1500 rpm - 2400 rpm - 3300 rpm
Aim: Sight / laser sight
Attachment none
Ammo: 5.56 perforating rounds (10 DMG), 5.56 antipersonnel rounds (15 DMG), 5.56 anti armor rounds (15 DMG)
Clip size: 400 rounds
Ammo max before us an other room slots 1000 per kind of 5.56x45 mm ammo

Accessories

-Laser sight
-Cooling upgrade (Reduce the heat effect when we fire)
-Turret (Put a turret in the ground and put the machine gun on it, it's not automated, but the accuracy is much higher than with other accessories)

Upgrade

-Clip expansion (500 rounds per clip max)
-Reload upgrade (reduce half time when fully upgraded)
-Range upgrade (upgrades up to 25% of the max range)
-Damage upgrade (upgrades up to 30 % of bullet damage)
-Harmonic stabilizer (Improve the accuracy up to 30%)
-Recoil weapon mod (reduces the recoil up to 40%)
-Cooling system (Upgrade the effect for the cooling system up to 30 %)


Info

This weapon can Overheat (the weapon can stay on malfunction during some seconds)
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills and the weapon isn't overheated 650 bullets up to 1900 if we use the lower rate of fire
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is a light caliber Minigun

Blade_hunter
18th Jul 2008, 20:27
Rail Driver (personal version)

Primary fire: Fire a 25x220 mm slug
Secondary fire: Sniper scope
Aim: Scope / laser sight / Computerized sight
Select fire Night vision, Infravision, Normal
Ammo: 25 mm EM slugs (DMG 500), 25 mm Laser slugs (DMG 90), 25 mm energy slug (DMG 90 electrical)
Clip size: 8 slugs
Ammo max before us an other room slots 40 per kind of 25x220 mm ammo

Accessories

-Laser sight
-Bipod (Improve the accuracy in prone position +18 % and reduce the impact from the recoil)
-Computerized sight
-Cooling upgrade (allow to fire more cartridges in a smaller time)
-Infrared device

Upgrade

-Clip expansion (12 per clip max)
-Reload upgrade (reduce half time when fully upgraded)
-Harmonic stabilizer (Improve the accuracy up to 20%)
-Recoil weapon mod (reduces the recoil up to 30%)
-Cooling system (Upgrade the effect for the cooling system up to 40 %)


Info

This weapon can't Overheat
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills 21 slugs before need repairs
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
This weapon have no range upgrade because it has an infinite range
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is an heavy rifle weapon

Romeo
19th Jul 2008, 07:35
I think an actual railgun would be awesome, as both a lethal long and short range weapon. The primary fire would be the standard shot, which would fire a large piece of Tungsten at 40000 feet per second, and the secondary would violentally eject the shell fragments left behind, much like a sharpnel-shotgun. It's biggest drawbacks would be that it fires at a tremendously slow rate of fire (and it would need to recharge after about five shots) and that ammo would be scarce. Another cool feature would be the ability to change the secondary fire of a gun, such as adding in a grenade launcher secondary ability to an Assault Rifle.

BOO YEAH, TRIPLE DIGITS! CELEBRATE!

Oym
19th Jul 2008, 08:41
This would be a good start :

http://www.ripten.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/gravity_gun3.jpg

:D

Romeo
20th Jul 2008, 11:15
Just... No. If we're going to rip-off guns from other games, we need these three guns:

Cow launcher. Launches cows, duh.

Alien Dance Ray. Causes your victim to stop what they're doing and dance.

ChickenCoop3000. Chicken-sniper rifle, activated by pulling on the chicken's neck, it launched a high-velocity egg with ruthless accuracy.


And if anyone recognizes which game these three came from, I'll be seriously impressed. I'll give a hint: It was the best shooter on the N64 that didn't have "007" in the title.

Oym
20th Jul 2008, 11:16
I also hope that a lot of weapons doesn't mean that Deus Ex 3 will be only about shooting everyone in sight ..

Romeo
20th Jul 2008, 11:20
I also hope that a lot of weapons doesn't mean that Deus Ex 3 will be only about shooting everyone in sight ..

Use the Alien Dance Ray then.

God, it's past five in the morning, I should really think about going to bed soon... lol

Oym
20th Jul 2008, 11:22
I don't know it's 2 pm in france :D

I don't really feel tired .. :cool:

Romeo
20th Jul 2008, 11:25
Yeah, well, a week straight of 3am parties, 9am wake-ups, an energy-drink-crash, a flask of Malibu Rum and a handful of Tylenols, and suddenly I'm starting to feel the time... Don't know why. To boot, spent the whole day in the blistering heat working on my cars, and playing 3 hours worth of lacrosse. lol

Oym
20th Jul 2008, 11:28
At least you know what to do with your time :o

Blade_hunter
27th Jul 2008, 00:39
What about a multi-purpose weapon? It could function using plasma as its basis, and switch to different modes, such as:

- Rapid fire, similar to a machine gun
- Burst fire, similar to a shotgun
- Single fire, similar to a high-powered, accurate rifle
- Explosive, similar to a rocket launcher, but weaker

I wanted to talk about his Idea of weapons

Instead of using plasma, we can use nanites, we have other traditional weapons and their specific ammo, I think no one wants unified ammo again

But this kind of weapon can have it's own unified ammo
In this example we use plasma, but we can use nanites, but only for this special weapon

Advantages:
when we change the ammo modes we never change the clip
with a gun that can use nanites we can use other weapons with their own ammo
when this gun is empty we can always use an other gun

Inconvenients:
this weapon haven't separate ammo when it's ammo is empty we can't use any other mod
A weapon like this must be different to others to don't make them obsolete

Multipurpose Enhanced Tactical Assault Lock on Weapon (METAL weapon) (personal version)

Primary fire: Single projectile (1)/ Ricochet projectile (2)/ Heat seeking projectile (10)/ Mineball projectile (5)/ Fragmentary projectile (3)
Secondary fire: Scope
Aim: Scope / laser sight / Computerized sight
Select fire Single / Burst
Ammo:Nanites (converted to use special modes)
Clip size: 60 nanites
Ammo max before us an other room slots 360 per nanites ammo

Accessories

-Computerized sight
-Cooling upgrade (allow to fire more cartridges in a smaller time)

Upgrade

-Reload upgrade (reduce half time when fully upgraded)
-Harmonic stabilizer (Improve the accuracy up to 30%)
-Recoil weapon mod (reduces the recoil up to 20%)
-Cooling system (Upgrade the effect for the cooling system up to 20 %)


Info

This weapon can't Overheat
This weapon can fire in a poor state and the basic skills 140 nanites before need repairs
The informations about the weapon mods and other things are displayed
This weapon have no range upgrade because it has a special ammo
The secondary fire can be customized
This weapon is a standard rifle weapon

This weapon can make bullets with special modes that can't be fired by a normal weapon, this weapon complete them in therms of tactics the main drawback it's can't be silenced and it's not a stun weapon

Cr4sh
27th Jul 2008, 07:27
about gun jamming: yeah, it would be cool, but in my time at the Bundeswehr (9 months) my rifle (G36) did not jam once with real rounds, only with maneuver (practice) ammo due to the maneuver ammunition device you had to screw on the end of your rifle (just like silencers in CS i.e.). This could also have been so due to the fact that i only lay in the mud with maneuver ammunition, but I'm quite sure that newer rifles than AK47 or M4 do not have that much jamming problems.

Nevertheless you could invent some mechanics skill which allows you to upgrade your weapons or make the upgrades more efficient...

Kevyne-Shandris
27th Jul 2008, 11:32
Some gun models just jam more often. Major headache between the M14 and M16 was to trade the weight and recoil, was to carry a toothbrush to keep the M16 clean. It would jam like crazy, unlike the M14 mule.

Maybe the same can be applied with various weapons. Like the most accurate is more likely to jam, least accurate won't jam as much (maybe once in 4hrs). That'll help a lot in MP, as there's too many headshots as it is (it's suppose to be rare, not common).

CJRamze
20th Aug 2008, 21:43
Weapons
For me I thought the weapons and weapon systems in DX 1 were exceptional
DX2 Brought some new things to the table however I felt that they tried to make the weapons too futurisitc.

I could really associate myself with the weapons in the first game,
The second they were just meh....

I think they should bring in hand to hand combat, Especially as the strength augmentation was practically pointless and you couldnt smack someone in the gob.

One thing I really do not want to see are a bunch of Pulse rifles that fire "PLASMA BOLTS"

That really would spoilt it for me.
Use ammunition familier, 9mm 7.62mm, I can see we'll be using this sort of technology for the next 100 years or more, The guns may look new...but the ammunition wont vary much.


So
Hand to Hand Combat - Would really make the strength aug have some point.
Keep the weapons similar to DX1 or similar to what we know and love now, Dont go off on a futurisitc rampage!

Blade_hunter
24th Aug 2008, 15:41
But DX have futuristic and conventional guns, it's the same as if we remove the aliens and mutants from the game

CJRamze
24th Aug 2008, 15:46
The guns in DX were not that futuristic
THe first gun you get is basically a standard 9mm but its like...10mm in the game.

The stealth pistol is a cool design but its not something we couldnt do now.
The Assault rifle looked pretty cool, But its basically just your standard Sub machine gun type thing.

Im talking like DX IW's weapons were far too over the top for me, Original DX weapons were fantastic.

Voltaire
24th Aug 2008, 18:51
The type of firearm I'd like to see would be something akin to the FG42 found in Return to Castle Wolfenstein. The FG stands for "fallschirmjagergewher" - roughly "fall from sky man rifle". It was issued to Luftwaffe paratroops in the second world war, but was limited in its production due to fiddly construction.

Why is it so good at what it does? Here are its main plus points:
- 20 round box magazine
- 600 rpm automatic fire with semi-automatic capabilities
- Good for snappy bursts of fire, but packs more punch than a regular SMG.

Did anyone play the game? If you did you were probably disappointed as I was when you found it was unavailable for multiplayer play for some reason (what with it being the perfect weapon for playing against intelligent, fast moving enemies).

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mitchtanz/fg42.jpg

gamer0004
24th Aug 2008, 19:42
The type of firearm I'd like to see would be something akin to the FG42 found in Return to Castle Wolfenstein. The FG stands for "fallschirmjagergewher" - roughly "fall from sky man rifle". It was issued to Luftwaffe paratroops in the second world war, but was limited in its production due to fiddly construction.

Was a higly advanced weapon for it's time... "Fallschirmjager" simply is German for paratrooper though. "Fallschirm" = parachute.
And it wasn't limited due to fiddly construction, it was too expensive and only paratroopers were going to be armed with it and after Crete they were never deployed as paratroopes anymore anyway so they simply used the MG42 or 34. And because it had to be so light the gun was almost uncontrollable with automatic fire. Thus. I have spoken :D

mook333
31st Aug 2008, 21:42
It would rock to be able to grab enemies mgs3 style, interrogate them, kill them, or knock them out. also weapons should be have different skills when you grab someone, like the knife would kill them and the stun rod would just knock'em out

RangerWill
2nd Sep 2008, 10:51
If DX3 is supposed to be a prequel to the other two, doesn't it stand that the weapons will older? More than likely they will 20th century weapons that the "armorers" and scientists of that period are trying to modify and improve upon. Then on one mission you are given the whereabouts of one fully perfected weapon that you can buy, receive, steal for use for the rest of the game. The bull-pup SMG or the GEP gun or something.

Also, Has anyone played Soldier of Fortune, Double Helix? One gun I was not too fond of was the OICW. In theory it's a great weapon, but when you're in a gunfight, you don't want to be relying on a tricked out scope to make your shots. That was similar to the wire guided rocket launcher in DX:IW. Close range it's a P.I.T.A. It would be better for long range attacks and even then, the projectile is moving so fast you don't have time to make course corrections. Thank you for listening to my rant.

Romeo
2nd Sep 2008, 16:00
DX3 may not be a prequel, we're still waiting on hearing about that. What I do want, is self-made weapons, like chairs and the like. Also, we're not that far off of most new technologies as is, take sonic weapons, railguns, coilguns and even the elusive laser, and suddenly thinking of a plasma weapon seems like it'll be made by next year.

GruntOwner
2nd Sep 2008, 21:41
Sonic weapons could never be implemented lethally though. The best you cou;d do would be nauseate the target. Great for riot control and stuff but not for the stuff you were doing in DX. Coilguns are absloutely possible with nanotech batteries, afer all, it's just a bunch of magnets. The problem would be them being cowards with the rail gun. The IW one did no justice to it's name. A railgun would go through the target, go through the wall, go through the tree outside and go through the car parked under the tree. If the devs are willing to take risks whilst keeping simplicity things will go well, but those weapons should only be included if they can be done right.

minus0ne
3rd Sep 2008, 02:39
DX3 may not be a prequel, we're still waiting on hearing about that. What I do want, is self-made weapons, like chairs and the like. Also, we're not that far off of most new technologies as is, take sonic weapons, railguns, coilguns and even the elusive laser, and suddenly thinking of a plasma weapon seems like it'll be made by next year.
Wait, your ideal self-made weapon is a chair? :lol:

But yeah, we're not far off from some "sci-fi" weaponry, they now even have 'guns' that emit radiowaves that trigger the pain-receptors in their targets. Great fun, using that on crowds! :thumbsup:

DXeXodus
3rd Sep 2008, 03:46
Some of these weapons would be great for the more "non-kill" type players.

Romeo
3rd Sep 2008, 05:44
Wait, your ideal self-made weapon is a chair? :lol:

But yeah, we're not far off from some "sci-fi" weaponry, they now even have 'guns' that emit radiowaves that trigger the pain-receptors in their targets. Great fun, using that on crowds! :thumbsup:
Not my ideal one, but I love being able to grab something nearby and beat someone to death with it, hence my love for Dead Rising.

Sonic weapons could never be implemented lethally though. The best you cou;d do would be nauseate the target. Great for riot control and stuff but not for the stuff you were doing in DX. Coilguns are absloutely possible with nanotech batteries, afer all, it's just a bunch of magnets. The problem would be them being cowards with the rail gun. The IW one did no justice to it's name. A railgun would go through the target, go through the wall, go through the tree outside and go through the car parked under the tree. If the devs are willing to take risks whilst keeping simplicity things will go well, but those weapons should only be included if they can be done right.
Actually, sonic weapons already have two current-day implementations. One is eliminating targets underwater (such as Navy SEALs) which is a loud bass note launched from boats, and the other is meant to destroy concrete and is done using a small box-like object that shakes at a certain frequency which destabilizes concrete structures, causing them to break apart.

Yes, both coilguns and railguns are simply limited by current day battery supplies, and though I understand what you're saying is completely true, it would be ridiculous to truly try and make it realistic. You have to be somewhat forgiving in that regard. =)

GruntOwner
3rd Sep 2008, 15:39
With the sonic weapons I meant as a ranged weapon. It's all well and good to take things apart over time when you're attached to them, but as an actual gun sonic would be one of the non-lethal takedowns or a distraction weapon. Unless you stuck the bomb to one of the slow moving bots, but why bots didn't set off alarms I will never understand.

Voltaire
3rd Sep 2008, 15:49
What I do want, is self-made weapons, chairs and the like.

Great idea, leading to snappy Jason Bourne style melee fights. If an opponent could do similar, this could be a real breakthrough.

This would have completed DX1 for me: if, when an item was grabbed, it didn't float in the air in a translucent hover, but instead was part of the HUD, held in the same way as the crowbar or baton. RTCWolfentstein had a reasonable system, which used chairs as impromptu clubs and a "health" system that meant they broke after a few blows.

GruntOwner
3rd Sep 2008, 18:39
Problem: /if we keep referencing Bourne then they might get the idea to take a page from the bourne game... and that would be a very, VERY bad thing.

Romeo
3rd Sep 2008, 18:49
It wasn't that bad of a game, in my opinion. But I do like wielding common objects as weapons. I'd love to start a "ball-room blitz".

On the opposite end of the spectrum, something I found was missing from IW was a truly tactical use rifle, such as a single-shot, low-recoil rifle. We need that, as I'm all about the tactical:

http://www.flashasylum.com/db/files/Comics/Rob/soldier.png

Matrox[FX-1]
5th Sep 2008, 01:37
The weapons of the next DX world should remain tru to what we have had so far in the story leading to this event.
My weapons of choice are inspired by the original DX and DXIW:

Melee Weapons:
Combat knife
Throwing knife
Sword
Crowbar
Batons
Screwdriver (There were a lot of them lying around in game could be used to break into security boxes aswell)
Stun prod
Nanotech sword
Dragon's Tooth Sword (Not needed as it should be outdated by newer Nanoblades but a good nostalgic weapon)


Pistol Class:
Pistol (10mm ammo)
Stealth Pistol (10mm ammo)
Dart Gun (w/ Normal, Flare, Poison, Neurotoxin and Sedative Darts)
PS1K (Plasma Single Charge)


Rifle Class:
Sawed-off Shotgun (Buckshot and Sabot)
Assault Shotguns (as above)
Sniper Rifle (30.06 ammo)
Assault Rifle (7.62mm)
Harpoon Gun (Harpoons)

Heavy weapons:
GEP Gun (AP Rockets, HE Rockets, HP Rockets, Security Camera)
Plasma Rifle (Plasma charges)
Flamethower (Napalm Cannisters)

Grenades: Serving as both mines and grenades like in DX.
LAM Grenade/Mine
EMP Grenade/Mine
Gas Grenade/Mine
Scramble Grenade/Mine
Spider Grenade/Mine

Ammo Explained:
[b]10mm - Standard Pistol Round.
Darts - [b]Normal - Self explainatory. No significant damage but good to lure a target into a trap.
- Flare - Lights a small area or burns an unarmoured target.
- Poison - Slowly kills the target.
- Neurotoxin - Causes human targets to become paranoid and crazed, shooting at anything or things they are halucinating. Eventually the affected target passes out from a heart attack.
- Sedative - Puts the target to sleep.
30.06 Ammo - High power rifle ammo.
7.62mm rounds - Standard rifle ammo.
Buckshot round - A close range anti-infantry ammo (works on biological targets)
Sabot shell - A close to short range anti armour shell.
Napalm canister - Used in the flamethrower.
AP Rocket - The "All-Purpose" Rocket. With a balance between firepower and homing ability the AP Rocket will fit most situations.
HE Rocket - The "High Explosive" rocket. A non-homing rocket with huge splash damage and explosion radius.
HP Rocket - The "Homing Pigeon" rocket has advanced homing technology and high manoverability to access it's target at the expense of a large blast radius. Good to eliminate the designated target.
Security Camera - This projectile is a rocket mounted camera which can attach to any solid surface to provide the user with a live video uplink for 2 minutes and accessed from any computer terminal for 20 minutes before the battery life runs dead.
Plasma - An unstable substance that once exposed to air burns intensely. The plasma is strong enough burn flesh and strip armour.
Harpoon - As in RL. A small spear that can be used under water.

There is a mixture of new weapons and some old classics with new features. I don't think new weapons need to be created nor the separation of mines and grenades. I enjoyed having a grenade and mine in the one slot of my inventory allowing a greater flexibility. Also the paranoia in making sure you are placing a mine instead of throwing a grenade.

Igoe
5th Sep 2008, 02:16
I am all about the Harpoon idea.

Realistically, most guns wont work underwater (der) and being limited to melee underwater could end up being balls.

The harpoon gun seems like a great addition, as long as its just a regular looking harpoon gun and not some uber spear cannon thing.

Romeo
5th Sep 2008, 02:53
Um, dude, you can put a SABOT round in a shotgun... It just wont work. A sniper, perhaps, but not a shotgun. Typically, by the way, SABOTs are used in vehicular-mounted weapons (read: Tanks).

Jerion
5th Sep 2008, 08:04
Um, dude, you can put a SABOT round in a shotgun... It just wont work. A sniper, perhaps, but not a shotgun. Typically, by the way, SABOTs are used in vehicular-mounted weapons (read: Tanks).


SABOT? Who needs 'em? We got grenade rounds for the AA-12. :D 120 grenade rounds in 4 seconds = a lot of carnage.

LatwPIAT
5th Sep 2008, 14:41
Um, dude, you can put a SABOT round in a shotgun... It just wont work. A sniper, perhaps, but not a shotgun. Typically, by the way, SABOTs are used in vehicular-mounted weapons (read: Tanks).

I believe I must disagree with your facts. Sabot rounds are in fact used by shotguns, as can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun#Definition) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot).

And you wouldn't put a sabot round in a sniper rifle. The casing falling off would cause too much destabilization.

Spiffmeister
5th Sep 2008, 14:46
How about a weapon that turns the enemy into radioactive goo and anyone stepping in that goo gets stuck and poisoned. I know, it's yucky.

Play Unreal Tournament 3 :p

The weapons from the first one worked well, they allowed you to customise each of your firearms to your own play style, be it stealth or spammy or what ever. Lets keep it to a formula that we know works.

Blade_hunter
6th Sep 2008, 01:31
The guns in unreal tournament doesn't have effects on players except doing damage, and in UT we have no radioactive weapons, we have only a chemical weapon that throws a sort chemical waste named tarydium.
About weaponry, and functionality, I hope to see much more weapons than DX 1 because I liked to see some Fire and forget weapons, for me it was a good concept, but not well exploited. and other kind of weapons with tactical features.

About underwater weapons it exits pistols and assault rifles that works underwater, they use a sort of needle bullets

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=x-P578pnctU see the guns

An other interesting videos

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=ectL29w_9l8
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGxrXS5oA0o
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=2JUzm9Md0hU
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=HvJX1vfQUkc
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=oozCRV7XyIY

About the glock 19 :P

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=I8xCB2r6V9c

Enjoy

Blade_hunter
13th Sep 2008, 18:57
Sorry for double posting but i wanted to show a strange wikipedia like article about weapons
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/LOWTDEBS

It's not a suggestion even if perhaps a chainsaw gun is wanted, but it's just for laughing ...

Romeo
16th Sep 2008, 06:40
I believe I must disagree with your facts. Sabot rounds are in fact used by shotguns, as can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun#Definition) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot).

And you wouldn't put a sabot round in a sniper rifle. The casing falling off would cause too much destabilization.
Too much destabilization? A SABOT round is specifically meant to go as fast as possible and hit with as much kinetic forse as it can, in an attempt to pierce armor! Hence why it's used almost exclusively by snipers and tanks (Generally the French). I don't know who wrote that article, but the point of a SABOT is to move quickly enough to pierce extremely armored targets, such as enemy tanks and ATVs.

minus0ne
16th Sep 2008, 07:13
Snipers can fire special depleted uranium bullets straight through tanks, several armies around the world are capable of this.

JerichoMccoy
16th Sep 2008, 14:38
With all these talks about weapons and different types of ammo...

I will not be surprised if an "Invisible War" begins to happen right under our very eyes...

Romeo
16th Sep 2008, 16:10
Snipers can fire special depleted uranium bullets straight through tanks, several armies around the world are capable of this.
Yes, but the way in which a D.U. round and a SABOT work is slightly different. Depleted Uranium rounds rely upon mass to pierce their targets, hoping to build enough kinetic energy that way. A SABOT is a durable sharp round which tries to use all it's kinetic energy to "pierce through" it's targets. And neither D.U. rounds nor SABOTs fired from almost any sniper (Save for the Baretta .50 Cal and M1 .50 Cal) will actually go "straight through" tanks, they usually break through the outer armor enough to damage internal systems, or on occasion, pierce their way into the interior. =)

Blade_hunter
16th Sep 2008, 17:52
Anyway why we talk always about realism ? DX uses realistic and unrealistic weapons, the philosophy of DX weaponry are standard with futuristic weapons, with no existing guns, the stealth pistol have a look close to a GITS pistol
http://www.rookscastle.com/props/anime/G_CX_01.jpg
It's not the same design but the same global form
The spirit of DX weapons is using real ammo (10mm bullets ,7.62 mm, 30 - 06) and futuristic ammo (Plasma charges, and the GEP gun rockets).
An other thing DX is semi realistic, we can use both technologies (realistic and futuristic) since we don't go with too illogical things ... (star wars lasers is a good example of illogical things)

LatwPIAT
16th Sep 2008, 21:07
DX uses realistic and unrealistic weapons, the philosophy of DX weaponry are standard with futuristic weapons, with no existing guns, the stealth pistol have a look close to a GITS pistol
http://www.rookscastle.com/props/anime/G_CX_01.jpg
It's not the same design but the same global form


Ahem!
The Seburo(tm) C-X (Compact Exploder) does as far as I can remember never feature in Ghost in the Shell. GitS uses the Seburo C-25a, C-26 and C-27a which is a more compact design. The C-X is however, mainly featured in Appleseed.

Anyways, why do we want realism? Well, too little realism breaks my willing suspension of beleife. I am willing to accept a Plasma Gun, I'm not willing to accept dual-wielding. (Aggghhhr!) Dual Wielding Assault Shotguns (Eeeeiiiiiieeee!) or dual wielding Desert Eagles (Oh dear Helios/Denton, MAKE IT STOP!!) Similarily, I'm not going to accept SABOT rounds for Sniper Rifles unless proven otherwise. (I'm just being septical, it sounds ludicrous to me, and I've never seen it before.)

Blade_hunter
16th Sep 2008, 23:24
Hum I think many weapons ideas realistic or not can be proposed since they don't break a certain logic, and sabot rounds is a large caliber round for anti material rifles (large snipers)
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm
Just take a look to this rifle
If we use standard sniper rifle we haven't this kind of cartridges, but for AMR those cartridges are made for that task: anti armor purpose.

About the pistol I only say this pistol and the DX stealth pistol is close in the global form.

And about SABOT for shotguns it appears to be flechette slugs that acts like an Anti armor slug
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug#Saboted_slugs

but I think ammo for shotguns must be developed because those weapons can use lethal and non lethal ammo and it can be a great partner for all kinds of players (brute force, mid range and stunner)
In DX we have only an antipersonnel and an anti armor ammo

For the rest I think make a true complete weaponry set will be fine,

if you want to see some things look here :D
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8KWW8i6Svs
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ

Ok I don't want dual wielding Machine guns but if we limits it up to machine pistols, it's fine, I think the skills can give the ability to dual wield those weapons, light pistols for the firsts levels, large pistols and revolvers for the middle and the last the machine pistols.

Romeo
17th Sep 2008, 05:04
Thank you Blade Hunter. And yes, there needs to be a certain degree of balance between realism and futuristic fantasy.

LatwPIAT
17th Sep 2008, 08:35
I see.

For non-lethal ammo for the shotgun, you could have beanbag rounds. It could a be a bit like hitting someone with a baton from afar. (Really, if you pick the shotgun as your weapon of choice, you're probably not aiming for a non-lethal approach.)

I know it's possible to fire Desert Eagles akimbo, it's just really really dumb (His wrists must be sore, a lower calbire gun would have a larger magazine than both guns together, increased accuracy, lowered recoil, I could go on and on and on...) However, I'd have nothing against firing Assault Rifles with one hand (Like Navarre does in Clinton Castle) if you had the appropriate augs.

I also want weapons integrated in my body. A shotgun in my arm. Is there anything more awesome than that? (A shotgun in my arm that shoots coins, but there are no coins in Deus Ex...)

As for the sniper rifles, we don't know the story yet, but in Deus Ex most weapons aquired were used by UNATCO for peacekeeping, and consequently for discreetly taking out enemies, not mindless slaughter (I guess the Flamethrower and the White Phophorous Rockets would be the excepetion.) JC was a police man of sorts, so he didn't need a grenade launcher to clear out a building, because he did infiltration and hostage-rescue. However, I can see .50 Calibre Anti Material Rifles used for anti-cyborg purposes, so I can see where you want to go with your SABOT rounds (Which probably wouldn't be called that, because unlike SABOT rounds for shotguns, these don't serve a special purpose. But I see that they are used for sniper rifles. Thank you.)

However, what I really want to see are weapons that can always be used. Say, if we have a pistol, a shotgun, an SMG, and an Assault Rifle, something should make it obvious that the pistol and SMG are perfectly valid weapons when I have the Assault Rifle. In Deus Ex, the pistol was excellent for stealth missions and quick take-downs, while the Assault Rifle had grenades and was better for an all-out confrontation.

Blade_hunter
17th Sep 2008, 13:12
About JC itself, in the game we are considerate as a cop, but the game give us the freedom to act more like a military trooper than a cop if we want, even if we have some non lethal weapons most of them are lethal or uses lethal ammo, a grenade launcher is great weapon for most tasks like a shotgun, even is the two guns have their own uses
The grenade launcher can be a true non lethal weapon and this weapon is be used by police.
an example of grenade launcher, http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl35-e.htm

And grenade launchers have some special weapons with "computer controlled time detonation"

Grenades launchers are medium range weapons and can be used for most tasks, it's not because we have mass destruction weapons that we have forced to use them or use the most lethal ammo since they aren't too easy to use or the ammo isn't so plenty.

The thing is many weapons can be proposed since they are or can be tactical, not too powerful (for example weapons like the redeemer, the BFG, Quantum singularity generators, nuke cannons aren't suited for DX or we need a much powerless version or weapon)

Many classical weapons are already accepted if we suggest a 9 mm pistol or a 357 magnum revolver I don't see whats the problem with those guns.
Even if we use laser pistol/rifles since they are hitscan lasers, railguns, plasma guns, lightening guns (since they don't act like the HL/blood 2 version), EMP rifles, or what ever we want. since they are logical.

lightening guns are under development and many devices are created for stun purposes

About energy weapons
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=JAvQcxCxOeY
We can see some initiating technologies for laser and lightening guns

Offensive lasers needs a lot of power but the batteries are more autonomous and powerful than older batteries and the technology continue its progress.

Deus Ex is a futuristic game with a not totally sci fi fantasy we have some common things because in the future I don't think the world can change totally in 50 years even if some places changes faster than others
Sci fi things are each day close to reality and many games tends to simulates the reality with more accuracy than before.

Virtual worlds and real worlds have a sort of common waypoint.
the old human dreams and even nightmares come closer to reality and many virtual worlds tends to simulate realistic events, phenomenas.

DX have a weaponry that give us a certain choice about the action we want to use when we need to deal with a problem even if I think some weapons are welcome to propose more mid range tactics and more specialized tactics.

The weaponry is a way to solve some problems / situations with lethal or non lethal weapons like the other abilities (hack, lockpicking, special activation, biomods)

I consider weapons like the rest as tools for spacial tasks, in a tradition FPS games weapons are weapons and are made most of times for killing, in sci fi and even realistic games. Most infiltration games forces you to use discretion instead of using your weapons because the ammo is rare

I loved DX because it's a game that give us many possibilities to solve a problem, being a terminator or a peace keeper would be a choice, not a restriction, and I see many guy's that suggest DX have only the peace keeping way and the infiltration way to solve a problem.
DX is a game that give us the choice about the tactics and I loved this game because it combines well all kind of plays and allow all kinds of players to play it using their own tactics, and I think we can expand the concept, instead of reducing it, the weapons are a part of it like many interactive things / item disposable in the DX world.

Personally I like both types of weapons with the most classical to the craziest seen or even never seen in games/movies/reality/Internet.
I loved some unrealistic and realistic games, I'm not focused to one game genre.

DX even if it isn't a very famous game (It's not famous as it's great) It's a game that have one of the most various community, when I see many DX players with both playstyles and a sometimes focused to one specific genre that they liked in DX because it was in the game.

Everyone have its vision of the game and even about the story, we have many view points about many threads.

But I think we must keep the variety of the game and even give more possibilities, than DX has offered, I think DX like many games, concepts and technologies used in games are a step to make a new game that propose a new game experience even with the same core concept since they expand it.

Just take a look to Commandos 1 & 2 in most game press magazines I see articles that says commandos 2 is a perfect sequel to the first commandos games.
I just played to the 1.5 and the 2 I can't say if the 3 is worse or not, but I liked the concept and the game itself.

I don't know if someone understand what I want to say by this text ....

gamer0004
17th Sep 2008, 13:36
While DX may not have been realistic at some points, at least it felt like it (in contrast with... practically every game/movie).

El_Bel
17th Sep 2008, 19:11
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=bhDPoVm74To&feature=related

The biggest mothertrucking shotgun :eek:

Romeo
18th Sep 2008, 02:11
I can't say the GEP gun and the Railgun could have possibly been devised with peaceful methods in mind, could you? I have a question for everyone though: Do you all want ONE Shotgun, ONE Assault Rifle, and so on? Or do you want multiples, all with some differences between eachother? Like perhaps a Semi-Auto Assault Rifle, A Bullpup (Clip behind the trigger, like the AUG or F2200) Assault Rifle, and a standard one?

K^2
18th Sep 2008, 02:46
Snipers can fire special depleted uranium bullets straight through tanks, several armies around the world are capable of this.
I'm afraid your information is a bit outdated. A modern tank cannot be pierced with a "tank rifle". Some older tanks were vulnerable to such attacks, but no rifle will pierce modern armor. Even the A-10's Avenger isn't so dangerous to a tank anymore. Pretty much the only kinetic weapons that are still a serious threat to a modern tank have to be fired from a cannon, such as tank's own or greater.

Modern armor is still vulnerable to a good cumulative charge, though. So if you ever have to go tank hunting, I strongly suggest one of Russian anti-armor RPGs. They are pretty much the only thing you can carry that will burn through front armor plate on a modern tank.

DXeXodus
18th Sep 2008, 04:06
I have a question for everyone though: Do you all want ONE Shotgun, ONE Assault Rifle, and so on? Or do you want multiples

Multiple weapons please. There is such a vast array of weapon styles within weapon categories. It would be great to see some of these different types in the game. If this isn't a feasible option then I would like to see heavily customizable weapons with many options. So each time you play the game you weapon can look a little different.

And please bring back the GEP gun. And don't forget the WP rockets :)

LatwPIAT
18th Sep 2008, 05:58
I can't say the GEP gun and the Railgun could have possibly been devised with peaceful methods in mind, could you? I have a question for everyone though: Do you all want ONE Shotgun, ONE Assault Rifle, and so on? Or do you want multiples, all with some differences between eachother? Like perhaps a Semi-Auto Assault Rifle, A Bullpup (Clip behind the trigger, like the AUG or F2200) Assault Rifle, and a standard one?

Oh, I want different weapons. What I don't want are multiple, overlapping weapons. I don't want an AK74u, an M16, a G3 and a M4 Carabine in the same game, unless I play a war simulator. Those guns overlap too much, and there wouldn't be any reason not to pick just one.

However, I'd like to have multiple weapons of the same time if there was some fundamental difference. Say, a sawn-off shotgun for crowd-clearing, and a combat shotgun general short-range firepower at slightly longer range.

Blade_hunter
18th Sep 2008, 11:56
I can't say the GEP gun and the Railgun could have possibly been devised with peaceful methods in mind, could you? I have a question for everyone though: Do you all want ONE Shotgun, ONE Assault Rifle, and so on? Or do you want multiples, all with some differences between eachother? Like perhaps a Semi-Auto Assault Rifle, A Bullpup (Clip behind the trigger, like the AUG or F2200) Assault Rifle, and a standard one?

I want multiple weapons, RPG games are the firsts that uses multiple forms of the same weapon, not the FPS games, the FPS military simulators haven't always a ton of weapons, some arcade FPS games have sometimes a high number of weapons, and STALKER is a DX / SS2 like game and have more than 40 weapons,
LOT of weapons won't say it's a military simulator I played to Red orchestra and it haven't a lot of weapons, and it's a military sim

Multiple weapons is more useful were the weapons doesn't exists, because we can give more proprieties than real ones, DX as something like that when we look to the shotguns, the pistols, the plasma weapons, the rocket launchers, the grenades, the blades.

In DX we can imagine a light machine gun with an underbarrel semi auto shotgun or an advanced combat rifle if we think into fire arms, but true peace keeping weapons, can be a net gun (a gun thats throws a web to catch the enemy)

A rocket launcher is basically a grenade launcher for long range

Grenade launchers are made because throwing a grenade by hand are less accurate and provides less range, and many hand grenades are timed instead of grenade shells for grenade launchers. those grenades are often impact grenades, even if we have some timed ones

Rocket launchers are more anti armor weapons , it's for that reason they have sometimes 2 warheads for the reactive armors or the bunkers (if I remember correctly). In DX we have an anti armor and an antipersonnel
rocket launchers are also in reality exterior weapons because they have instead of grenade launchers a back blast.
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl50-e.htm
this weapon is interesting even if it's old

this weapon is a reusable model of standard rocket lauchers
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl26-e.htm
An other
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl02-e.htm

this weapon is a famous weapon and is a fire and forget weapon
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl11-e.htm
An other
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl12-e.htm


The trend in therms of assault rifles is the bullpup configuration, because we have a long cannon for a compact overall size, DX 1 have a bullpup model with a drum clip. standard assault rifles are always produced, just take a look to the G36 and or the SCAR that will be the future assault rifle of the US military due to the cancellation of the XM8
The XM8 and the XM 25 are parts of the OICW project, the XM 8 is a G36 like rifle close to the part used in the OICW model and the grenade launcher is a bullpup launcher like grenade launcher part of the rifle.
I see an interesting modal based on the AUG for Australian army
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as72-e.htm
Second as I can see many future weapons tends to combine multiple shot grenade launchers instead of single shot ones with an assault rifle

Some weapons try to use a new ammo type like the ACR from Austria or the HK G11 instead of standard bullets like some SMGs and some new rifles

Many proprieties can be made with a rifle like its customization level(available accessories and upgrades, the clip size, the ammo used, the accuracy, the range, if some accessories are already integrated with the weapon or not, like the sniper rifle for example, it's only a simple semi automatic rifle with a scope

I want to take a look to civilian rifles like this one
http://world.guns.ru/civil/civ009-e.htm

A good variety of weapons is a must and an other thing is we should look to some alternate weapons (non guns) and non grenades like a weapon that can be find everywhere in the real life, if we infiltrate a corporation we can find military weapons like in deus ex, but when we are in civil places we can see "junk" or "everyday" weapons like the crowbar for example or even use a frying pan fund in a kitchen a moment before and throw it in the enemy head to knock him and save some ammo ...

gamer0004
18th Sep 2008, 12:27
Oh, I want different weapons. What I don't want are multiple, overlapping weapons. I don't want an AK74u, an M16, a G3 and a M4 Carabine in the same game, unless I play a war simulator. Those guns overlap too much, and there wouldn't be any reason not to pick just one.


AK47 and M16 are too much alike?
epic lol (:scratch: )
They are in fact very different. That's why the Taliban don't stand a chance against good ol' Dutch forces in Uruzgan (besides their... complete lack of air support). Ak's aren't capable of firing at long distances (if you want to hit something anyway), which is what they do: ambush soldiers in the mountains. However, it would still not be a very good idea to get M16 for the Taliban. Because after two days they would start to jam.

Romeo
18th Sep 2008, 15:32
That, and the fact you'd be outfitting the Taliban with M16's.

But no, like I said, the three I listed would play fairly different from one another (Semi-Auto only shoots a round at a time, Bullpup would have very limited recoil, but a longer reload time, and a standard would be you're typical AR. All would share the same ammo type, of course).

LatwPIAT
18th Sep 2008, 21:21
AK47 and M16 are too much alike?
epic lol (:scratch: )
They are in fact very different. That's why the Taliban don't stand a chance against good ol' Dutch forces in Uruzgan (besides their... complete lack of air support). Ak's aren't capable of firing at long distances (if you want to hit something anyway), which is what they do: ambush soldiers in the mountains. However, it would still not be a very good idea to get M16 for the Taliban. Because after two days they would start to jam.

Yes they are too much alike. In-game, they'd be near identical. The range differences, which are several hundred meters vs. even more hundred meters and slight differences in accuracy and stopping power, are hardly substancial in a game like Deus Ex, which features buildings and corridors, rarely reaching ranges greater than 20-23 meters. As for stopping power, it's be like GUN, and GUN+, it's obviouswhich one to pick.

One ammo for multiple guns, all serving the same purpose with different stats. Skeptical...

Romeo
19th Sep 2008, 03:40
Dude, they're nothing alike, I've fired both before. The AK is choppy as hell, and shakes violently at full auto. It has low accuracy and low handling ability. The M16 is much more accurate, and is slighty better at handling full-auto fire.

LatwPIAT
19th Sep 2008, 07:40
Dude, they're nothing alike, I've fired both before. The AK is choppy as hell, and shakes violently at full auto. It has low accuracy and low handling ability. The M16 is much more accurate, and is slighty better at handling full-auto fire.

Then, why use the AK47 ever at all, if I can kill people more easily with them M16? There's really no point in having GUN and GUN+, because then I'd only use GUN+. Weapons basically need distinct purposes. There's a reason most militaries don't use many different rifles, but rather use one standardized one. It just complicates ammo supplies, and if they use the same ammo, then I'd just stick to GUN+ all the time anyways. Take Half Life 2. The SMG and the AR2 handle basically identical, meaning you'd always use the AR2 when it's avaliable. Having an AK47 and a M16, I'd either always pick the AK47 because I need the firepower, or I'd always pick the M16 for the accuracy.

It would be better to have only one of them. You don't need a semi-automatic rifle, because that's the purpose of the the pistol, and you don't need a scope for the assault rifle, because that's the purpose of the Sniper Rifle. Having more, near-identical guns eventually leads to redundancy.

Blade_hunter
19th Sep 2008, 15:54
Terrorists uses the AK47 because it's cheap, powerful and reliable.
The M16 offers better fire control and accuracy than AK47 but it's weaker than the AK 47 in therms of reliability and fire power
The M16 sights helps to be more accurate than the russian rifle, it's not only in the rifle conception on itself and the A2 and A4 version are only burst assault rifles.
And many games put the M4 instead of the M16, juste take a look to counter strike. and many uses only the M16a2 the burst round rifle instead of the other M16 rifles models.
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/2686/m16versionsrb7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Many assault rifle uses burst - semi auto only rifles, just take a look to the FAL or the HK G3

Many assault rifles in games have similar proprieties, after all many games doesn't simulates the true functions of a gun and they are often limited or sometimes completely false the simulation is restricted to some player proprieties, in DX for example when you are expert in weapon domain it removes the recoil of the weapon

I think It's better to talk about weapons and even other items by the logic factor than the reality factor because most of us have never used dozens of fire arm to make true comparisons.
All DX weapons aren't real, even if they have some logical things (I talk about the DX 1 weapons, because the DX 2 ones aren't futuristic they are totally illogical even if I compare them with the unreal tournament weapons or quake weapons even if they have some normal/plausible things)

Romeo
19th Sep 2008, 22:44
Aha, you included the XM16. You're my hero. :D

K^2
19th Sep 2008, 22:54
I don't see a point in burst mode. AK47 fires bursts perfectly well in auto mode. All you have to do is give trigger a short tug. It's been part of Russian standard training exercises for as long as they have been using AKs.

Romeo
19th Sep 2008, 23:04
It's just a little more predictable. You know you're going to fire exactly so many rounds (say three) versus a random amount on auto. With that information, you know on a twenty-four round clip, you're only got eight bursts. You have no idea how many you have left unless you're counting (which is distracting at a shooting range. Imagine how difficult it would be under fire). Three round burst also help minimize recoil, as it gives the gun a quick break, pushing the user to keep a cool head, unlike full auto, which a nervous user could accidentally waste half their clip shooting wildly if they weren't paying attention. The last reason is because when firing long-range, it enables you to simply pull the trigger and quickly pop a few rounds, allowing you to focus completely on aiming. With a full auto, you have to split focus between aiming, trigger control and analyzing the gun's handling.

I'm not trying to harp on full auto at all (All but one of my favorite guns are fully automatic) but there is a point to burst fire.

MyVisionIsAugmented
19th Sep 2008, 23:26
The pistol(s) HAVE to be semi automatic as in "you fire as many times as you click" , thats why its called semi automatic after all, not "fire then wait a bout half second and fire again!" Oh and I dont like duel wield weapons in DX its just not the way!****

Romeo
19th Sep 2008, 23:40
It's not called that, it's called single shot, manually cocking or "hammering". But I understand what you're trying to say. lol

K^2
20th Sep 2008, 00:00
Pistols tend to be short recoil, though. It is difficult to build reliable full auto on short recoil. Yes, I know that a lot of SMGs are short recoil, but they are rarely reliable. Gas action is far better for full auto. It would be better for pistols as well, if it wasn't for added weight.

Preemptive response. The reason that Desert Eagles jam like crazy is not because of gas action, but because they are built to fire revolver rounds, which have a notch on the back of the shell. In principal, Desert Eagle would have been extremely reliable if it was designed to use rifle or SMG ammo instead.

Romeo, I know that in general, bursts on auto aren't necessarily reliable as far as count goes. However, part of burst training on full auto rifles is firing bursts of exactly 3, 4, or 5 rounds - depending on the rifle and regulations. They drill you to the point where this is pretty much automatic, so longer bursts are rare even in combat.

Blade_hunter
20th Sep 2008, 00:14
Yes I used a part of a wiki article :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ak_47
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

or by the arms site

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as01-e.htm AK47
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm M16a1 and M16a2
In the arms site we haven't the latest M16 rifles

I think this is better to make comparisons

I think we can use some weapons as a pure weapons or be an attachment to a gun.


http://www.machinegunarmory.com/webimages/knights.jpg

just take a look to the M203, it can work alone or be a part of many colt assault rifles.

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/xm-26-early.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/XM-26-3.jpg

or this shotgun mounted in a rifle and be a separate part

we haven't only grenade launchers in additional weapons for assault rifles
I think the concept can be expanded to and underbarrel electric stun pistol, a flare gun, a bayonet (even if those days it's pretty rare to use this in a rifle) and many other sub weapons that complete a rifle or even a submachine gun with an MP5 size and give more possibilities even on non killing tactics

http://world.guns.ru/assault/g11_scope.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonet

An example of less lethal rifle for non killing tactics perfectly suited for a game like DX

http://www.armedforces-int.com/images/companies/673/FN303-small.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN303
The flash ball is a riot gun that fire rubber cartridges
http://moreas.blog.lemonde.fr/files/2006/12/flash-ball_super-pro.jpg

Many guns and concepts like those ones can be used in DX or a DX like game

Blade_hunter
20th Sep 2008, 01:00
Sorry for double posting, but the previous post have a lot of pictures and the forum have some limit on it i just want to avoid some editing problems

http://www.archive.org/details/Rifle556mmXM16E1OperationandCycleofFunctioningTF93663
An interesting M16 movie that shows the operation of the rifle and how unrealistic the games are even when they uses real weapons

and and Ak47 autocad animation that show us the mechanical operation
http://k41.pbase.com/v3/65/217165/1/47449546.ak_anim.gif
AK 107
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e22/FatLife/ak107op.gif?t=1221873718

other interesting animations and assault rifle mechanisms
http://www.armytimes.com/projects/flash/2007_02_20_carbine/

Edit Ak 47 vs M 16
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0

Romeo
20th Sep 2008, 05:51
You will ALWAYS have unrealistic attributes with games, for very simple reasons:

1) Human discrepency. I'm not the best marksman. I've fired a handful of guns, but I've never really dedicated myself to getting good at aiming them, or handling them. Now, a professional marksman on the other hand is going to be significantly better at aiming than I am. So, no matter what, a game is going to feel unrealistic to one of us.

2) Gaming "control". A human has a certain degree of error. Maybe I hit bulls-eye one time I aim, and the second time, trying the same thing, I miss. A game, however, cannot do this. There must be consistency with how the character shoots, otherwise it is lambasted for sloppy controls or inconsistent hit ditection.

3) Player mindframe. There are certain things you would never consider in a real firefight, such as hopping across a field and aiming exclusively for your opponents head. However, more often than not, these practices are encouraged in games, leaving the player to assume the game is too arcadey, which often means the assume the guns must be as well.

4) Professionalism. Most of the time, the character you are playing in a game is supposed to be a professional, be it a soldiar, assassin, mercenary, agent, whatever. Professionals are supposed to be superior to standard people, and as such, things such as recoil are often reduced, in an effort to keep them looking perfect, and allowing for an extremely high kill-to-death ratio.

5) Physical limits of physics. It will be a long, long time before games are capable of perfectly re-creating all the physics that come into play in real life. A shot in a game is often influenced by two factors: Aim, and accuracy. A real life weapon may have to worry about: Aim, accuracy, fatigue, humidity, range, velocity of the round, wind, heat, gravity, and other things when fired, which individually, make little difference, but in conjuction, can create vastly different results from the simplified version in game.

Blade_hunter
20th Sep 2008, 12:22
Yes exactly but you forgot one parameter it's on the weapon use and action.
We have rarely maintainance to do and it's rare to have this option even on realistic games, when we have this this is used in a simplified and supposed manner.
I don't think a guy wants all inconvenients offered by a gun in a game such as cleaning
The projectile delay is a realistic option, but it eats more resources than hitscan bullets, many old games haven't this option I think the first FPS with this feature is SIN and it's add on wages of sin
Sometimes we have the reloading sequence, when the clip / loader is partially empty or completely the reloading sequence is different and the amount of cartridges too and it depends of the guns some guns doesn't keep the bullet in the chamber. rare are the game or even the mods to propose the difference between the two situations.
Some weapons in games the semi automatic ones are ... automatic but slow, it's unrealistic but practical many games uses this and Deus Ex too even on manual guns like the sawed off.
We have sometimes visual details, and the chainguns are often badly simulated when the clip is partially empty or not often it's the same, don't make the difference simplifies the programming, the first game that give that detail is soldier of fortune 1.
Many other non mentioned parameters aren't mentioned because I think most people don't care to it

About games, a gun is simply a baton that throws a projectile even on the most realistic FPS games, It's useless to program a gun with real proprieties, those proprieties are always simulated, some animations are added to make it realistic on visuals, the guns in first person view and third person view are often different and the high poly version is for first person and the low poly is for third person, it keeps some resources because the high poly is managed only for one user, the player, or the players with their computers
I won't describe all details about that but the only message I think we should retain about this is:

Choose between fun and realism is a factor that can enhance the gameplay or not, I give myself some realistic parameters in a specific thread even if some can act in an unrealistic manner, inspired by existing games, only feasible things, I think we should talk about weapons in therms of logic or even in game therms.
I think everyone liked the GEP gun or the LAMs and not because they were real, but because they have some logical functions, and a good design, no ?

Romeo
20th Sep 2008, 19:59
At the basic level, yes. It was nice to have some firepower that could clear a room.

APostLife
21st Sep 2008, 07:40
If DX3 is going to be a prequel then it should weapons modified but not directly the same as army weapons obviously. If it is a sequel to DX:IW , it still should not have cheesy weapons like they did.

Blade_hunter
21st Sep 2008, 10:36
Anyway if DX will be a midquel or sequel there is no reason they keep what most players disliked in IW because rare are the players that wants to keep the universal ammo, the weapons style and even the weapon action / upgrade and many things. I think we have the same point of view to this part.
If it's a prequel (2020) I think most weapons should be classical, the GEP gun at its firsts uses, the LAMs too and the famous gun prototype a laser rifle, In DX 2 like DX 1 we have some standard weapons and we can find a weapon prototype.
In DX 1 it was a plasma rifle and in DX 2 it was the mag rail, even if they are prototypes sometimes it won't be say they are a perfect weapon or the best weapon
DX 2 has introduced a concept of some modified existing weapons in rare quantity and often hidden in secret places.
This concept is interesting even if we have always the same design and only one changing detail or some seems to have no real sens like the hellfire boltcaster for example, that is just a boltcaster that throws flare arrows, in DX 1 we have a better weapon with a low tech look, it's a bit strange isn't it ?
About the laser rifle I don't want to see laser beams a la Star Wars, it's a true hitscan weapon with an heat effect and the ability to causes burning.

We can choose other prototypes like a microwave rifle for example, a lightening gun, or an other weapon

The most classical will be an advanced combat rifle that many nations try to develop

If it's a prequel I think we have only one / two true futuristic weapon, if it's a sequel midquel we have more because some of them has become standard weapons, In DX 2 we never see a plasma rifle during the game, it's a bit strange, no ? we only find the dragon tooth in the sequel ...

For a sequel / midquel we can see more kind of futuristic weapons since their acting stay logical.

I think a lightening gun fits more with the DX spirit than many gun prototypes, because this weapon is a killing and non killing weapon in one weapon.

After it depends if the best prototype is a pure destruction weapon or weapon with multifunction things ...

K^2
21st Sep 2008, 21:15
Romeo, while I mostly agree with what you are saying, I think you are very wrong on two of your points. Namely.

2) Gaming "control". A human has a certain degree of error. Maybe I hit bulls-eye one time I aim, and the second time, trying the same thing, I miss. A game, however, cannot do this. There must be consistency with how the character shoots, otherwise it is lambasted for sloppy controls or inconsistent hit ditection.
Deus Ex simulated just that, along with many other games. It gives you an aiming circle, which tells you where most of your shots will land. That circle decreases with a steady aim as well as with increased aiming skill. This might not be entirely realistic, but it is pretty close to what you might get with a real gun.

Certain degree of randomness in shots is not "sloppy controls" even in the opinion of most players. In fact, most players expect that from a "realistic" game.


5) Physical limits of physics. It will be a long, long time before games are capable of perfectly re-creating all the physics that come into play in real life. A shot in a game is often influenced by two factors: Aim, and accuracy. A real life weapon may have to worry about: Aim, accuracy, fatigue, humidity, range, velocity of the round, wind, heat, gravity, and other things when fired, which individually, make little difference, but in conjuction, can create vastly different results from the simplified version in game.
This isn't a problem with technology. I can easily code a very light routine for computing trajectories that account for all of the physical factors you mentioned. Gravity and range are trivial. Drag requires numerical estimate, but it will still be dead on for all reasonable purposes. Velocity will be accounted for in above. Wind can be added to drag by simply factoring in air speed instead of ground speed. Finally, heat and humidity can be factored in as well in all of the above. Though, these last two will probably not be noticed by the player.

All of this is extremely easy to do. Drag formula is well known. Drag coefficients for most ammo types are known. Air density can be evaluated from altitude, temperature, and humidity. A slightly tricky bit is properly weighing the integration. Most game programmers don't know how to do such things. But that isn't really necessary. You can simply take 10x more points and brute force it to same precision. It will still take so little of your CPU power that it won't matter in the end.

This leaves human factors, like fatigue, steadiness of aim, etc. And, as mentioned, such things have been attempted before. Not without success.

So it all comes down to how detailed the programmers want to make it. If they want shooting to be super-realistic, it will be. If they want the game to be a little more arcade, that's what they'll code.

jordan_a
21st Sep 2008, 21:40
The M16 is weaker than the AK 47 in therms of reliability and fire powerEven today? :scratch:

K^2
21st Sep 2008, 21:44
I believe, it still depends on range and ammo. AK47 can do magic with steel core bullets.

Blade_hunter
22nd Sep 2008, 01:20
Even on today look at the AK 47 vs M 16 vid, you can see why the AK 47 is more powerful than the M 16 and why the M 16 is more accurate than the AK 47.
look at the links I found too and see

One question what is the weapon prototype we wants to see in the future game ?

A railgun
A plasma weapon
A laser weapon
A lightening weapon
An advanced combat rifle (high tech assault rifle if someones doen't know what it is)
Other

For me I want to see many weapons since they aren't too strange or animal guns ....

Romeo
22nd Sep 2008, 01:37
Even today? :scratch:
The AK-47 is relatively useless in most catagories, but it's renowned for it's power and price. Much like muscle cars: Cheap and powerful, but brutally difficult to control.

Romeo, while I mostly agree with what you are saying, I think you are very wrong on two of your points. Namely.

Deus Ex simulated just that, along with many other games. It gives you an aiming circle, which tells you where most of your shots will land. That circle decreases with a steady aim as well as with increased aiming skill. This might not be entirely realistic, but it is pretty close to what you might get with a real gun.

Certain degree of randomness in shots is not "sloppy controls" even in the opinion of most players. In fact, most players expect that from a "realistic" game.


This isn't a problem with technology. I can easily code a very light routine for computing trajectories that account for all of the physical factors you mentioned. Gravity and range are trivial. Drag requires numerical estimate, but it will still be dead on for all reasonable purposes. Velocity will be accounted for in above. Wind can be added to drag by simply factoring in air speed instead of ground speed. Finally, heat and humidity can be factored in as well in all of the above. Though, these last two will probably not be noticed by the player.

All of this is extremely easy to do. Drag formula is well known. Drag coefficients for most ammo types are known. Air density can be evaluated from altitude, temperature, and humidity. A slightly tricky bit is properly weighing the integration. Most game programmers don't know how to do such things. But that isn't really necessary. You can simply take 10x more points and brute force it to same precision. It will still take so little of your CPU power that it won't matter in the end.

This leaves human factors, like fatigue, steadiness of aim, etc. And, as mentioned, such things have been attempted before. Not without success.

So it all comes down to how detailed the programmers want to make it. If they want shooting to be super-realistic, it will be. If they want the game to be a little more arcade, that's what they'll code.
Thats simply degradation of accuracy, not truly the "luck" attribute I was thinking of.

And no, most technology can`t keep track of so many things, because there`s often many characters on screen, which means many weapons, and even more bullets. Range is glaringly important. A shot which travels ten feet and then hits its target will travel in a near-straight line. If the same shot has to travel 4000 feet, gravity and wind are going to have a much, much more pronouned effect. Drag is important, because its what limits the range of weapons. Velocity, like range, can make a tremendous difference in how the bullet is affected by the forces of gravity and wind, as a faster moving bullet can reach a target faster than a slower moving one, thus limiting it`s exposure to those forces. And heat and humidity are both closely related to drag, as cold air is more dense, and wet air even more so. A cold, wet day can double or even triple the amount of drag on a bullet. These are not as easy to plug in as one would think, hence why 99.9% of the time an objects visual form, and the invisble shape which is actually affected by physics are different, as the physics related one is simplified to try and keep things running smoothly, despite it only being one object, often slow-moving and not affected by some of the factors I mentioned.

K^2
22nd Sep 2008, 05:31
Romeo, half of what I do for research is simulation. Believe me, tracking 1,000 bullets on the screen while computing their trajectories to a fraction of an inch accounting for all physical characteristics mentioned above wouldn't make up even 1% of CPU load running typical modern FPS.

Romeo
23rd Sep 2008, 18:17
Romeo, half of what I do for research is simulation. Believe me, tracking 1,000 bullets on the screen while computing their trajectories to a fraction of an inch accounting for all physical characteristics mentioned above wouldn't make up even 1% of CPU load running typical modern FPS.
Well, seeing as how virtually every game I've ever heard of has to simplify their physics load in order to make the game run smoothly, I'm almost inclined to believe them. And I know physics burn through memory, which is why Forza 2 couldn't get the 12 cars they had been hoping for, there's too much computing for the CPU to handle.

K^2
24th Sep 2008, 02:21
There is a very big difference between high-poly many-body high precision collision physics and computing trajectory of a point-like body with very simple aerodynamic parameters.

Physics engine has to evaluate, virtually point-by-point, overlaps between objects, then estimate forces from that, and integrate over that with much higher "frame rate" than the graphics engine. You don't need any of that for a bullet.

Bullet's trajectory can almost be done analytically. The governing equation is simply: dV/dt=-k(V-W)*|V-W|+g where bold letters denote vectors. I'm not sure, off the top of my head, if this can be solved in general, but if you make assumption that |V| does not change much between time steps, you can split this into 3 1d equations. Horizontal ones will have solutions of form 1/t, and vertical either coth(t) or tanh(t), depending on whether V is above or bellow terminal.

The later approach will let me use time intervals that will let bullet travel several yards between time ticks. So even in the worst case, no bullet will ever live for more than 100 or so time ticks, and I'll still be getting trajectories to within an inch.

Romeo
24th Sep 2008, 04:36
Valid, but imagine a dozens RCP90's on full auto. That's probably a hundred rounds (P90 RoF is 800RPM, RCP90 is 950RPM), on top of everything else the CPU needs to manage, such as graphics, sound and of course, all the other physics. It doesn't need to completely cripple the CPU to be noticable, but if it's turning a 30FPS game into a slideshow, you're going to notice the wasted processing power.