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gamer0004
24th Sep 2008, 13:34
It is just a simple calculation for every bullet. CPU's can do millions of those every second.

K^2
24th Sep 2008, 20:18
Valid, but imagine a dozens RCP90's on full auto. That's probably a hundred rounds (P90 RoF is 800RPM, RCP90 is 950RPM), on top of everything else the CPU needs to manage, such as graphics, sound and of course, all the other physics. It doesn't need to completely cripple the CPU to be noticable, but if it's turning a 30FPS game into a slideshow, you're going to notice the wasted processing power.
1) You do not compute graphics for bullets.
2) Sound is already being computed.
3) The physics described by me in a post above is so simple, a CPU will handle hundreds of thousands of bullets before you see your frame rate drop by one frame.

Now, look, I guess you don't trust me. How about this. I'll write an algorithm that computes a trajectory of a bullet that accounts for wind, gravity, air density, distance, etc. I will place a "machine gun" that fires a selection of randomly picked "ammo types" in random directions. I will even set up collision code for it to hit various "walls", as well as simple graphics engine with texture mapping displaying hits on the "walls". I will then crank up the number of bullets until CPU starts having trouble. That sounds fair? I might have time later tonight, or I'll throw it together over the weekend.

Romeo
24th Sep 2008, 22:08
No, I understand what you're saying, that the bullets don't chew up 100% of the processing power. What I'm saying, is that the game still has to render all graphics (bullets and everything else), sounds (of everything) and all physics, for all objects. Now, say you're computer is already wasting 35% of it power on the basic tasks of running, the game is draining another 40%. Now, you might be able to get away using that much memory, but throw in another 5 or 10%, and suddenly the game is going to slow to a standstill.

K^2
25th Sep 2008, 06:25
I'm coming up with about 32B and maybe about 100 flops per bullet per tick. I'll need about 100 ticks per second for good precision. So we are talking about 3.2MB and 1GF for 100,000 bullets. So that is less than 0.1% of CPU power and less than 1% of spare RAM of a modern PC. Are you telling me that your game will fly fine on 100%, but suddenly slow to a crawl on 99% of resources?

I'm practically done with the physics stage, by the way. Just need to slap together some rendering code.

Romeo
26th Sep 2008, 05:05
Well then, again, you should sell your findings to game companies, you'd make a killing. As again, almost no game features any of these things, for fear of slowing things down.

LatwPIAT
26th Sep 2008, 05:52
Hmm, the question of course comes to how realistic we want things to be. For example, a sniper rifle that has realistic bullet drop and wind effects would be realistic, but I'm playing games to be something different, I don't want to learn military grade sniping just to be able to play propperly. Now, at the low ranges used in Deus Ex, this hardly mattered, since bullet drop and wind is rarely encountered inside at low ranges.

Romeo
26th Sep 2008, 05:56
Oh, in Deus Ex it's utterly useless, we're so off-topic, but I enjoy the discussion.

But in certain catagories of games, precision is demanded, yet often, you still have straight fire shots.

minus0ne
26th Sep 2008, 06:17
If I want (pseudo)realism I'll get Operation Flashpoint 2 :p What's the point of all those added mechanics if your careful consideration of the humidity, wind speeds and direction and altitude/air pressure are all offset by the player character's skill with that particular (type of) gun and a random dice roll?

Even in other types of games though... I don't know if I'd grab an L96A1 in BF2 ever again if I had to account for all those things like a real sniper does. Part of the fun is the quick action with the added layer of strategic gameplay. I'm not so sure realism would be a welcome guest to that party.

Romeo
26th Sep 2008, 07:28
You misunderstand me: I don't think all games should be so realistic. But the games that are aiming for realism should account for it. No sniper, no one, makes a perfect shot everytime their crosshairs line up.

Blade_hunter
26th Sep 2008, 14:31
Sniping is a hard task, and the distance makes the task more difficult, I played to Tactical Ops (a CS like for UT) a game that have the projectile delay, I played with projectile delay and it was very hard to use a sniper and put an head shot. IRL we have our moves it's for that reason sniper rifles have bipods to stabilize the aim, and the projectile delay decreases the chances to be accurate.

But I don't think anyone wants a fullish realistic game

because when I made a poll with the weapon acting, the projectile delay seems to be OK for the majority, but not the rest.

true aiming, overheating, weapon maintenance, true reloading are things most persons doesn't want, and they are realistic things.

Some factors can be managed in an arcade manner, in SS2 the weapon maintenance was a bit "arcade", you have a tool to upgrade the state of it or if it's broken you have a sort of mini game to repair it.

I don't suggest the SS2 trick but if someone understands what I want to say ... I will give an explanation anyway, it's some realistic things can be used in a simple manner, some realistic things can balance weapons between each others.
In RTCW for example we have weapons that can overheat, but those weapons have this feature to balance them with the others.
the Sten mk2 and the Venom gun are the only weapons with the overheating feature, one because it was silenced, the other because it's a weapon close to a minigun.

IRL those weapons are jammed when they overheat, in RTCW you can wait a fire again, in an other game the machinegun enters in a malfunction state and can't stop fire during some seconds or if the ammo supply still empty, for a conventional machinegun with standard bullets it never happen but with caseless ammo it can happen ...

The weaponry must still varied and more if it have some special features
some realistic things can be turned in an arcade manner but with a certain logic.

We have an other thing that most games doesn't manage is the weapon collision you can use a large machine gun and a small pistol in the same manner and locations, for corridors and small areas the shotguns and submachineguns are required because they are small weapons, the bullpup assault rifles can made this job well because they are often compact as SMGs like the UMP or the MP5.

Speaking about realism sometimes doesn't make sense in games, talking about logic and fun is a better philosophy in games than realism. the greatest games futuristic or not aren't the most realistic, they combine the fun and some logic.

DX is semi realistic and combines the fun and the logic.

When we talk about real weapons it's more to add something interesting to the game than transform it in a realistic simulator.
DX uses some realistic tricks to make the combat with ranged weapons more difficult and avoid the use of too much brute force tactics, not with the objective to make the game realistic...

gamer0004
26th Sep 2008, 16:47
Overheating and weapon maintenance aren't realistic. Not a single weapon will break down within three days. Practically no modern arms tend to overheat.

As for sniping and projectile delay: well, that's the whole point isn't it? To aim on front of someone so he walks straight into the bullet. Since the distances won't be nearly as big as in real life (I believe they can hit targets at 2 km) it won't be so hard.
For stability problems and the wind etc. there are special computers who calculate all those factors. So in DX there could be some kind of GUI next to the normal scope showing where the bullet will hit. Even if DX3 will be a prequel those things will probably exist or it is likely or at least believable they will exist by then.

Blade_hunter
26th Sep 2008, 18:08
I'm sorry but many weapons can overheat, the silenced ones and the machine guns and it's the same for weapon jamming, fire quick bursts can't make that effect (overheating), but a continuous fire yes, all weapons are air cooled (I don't know if we have other cooling systems for weapons), and machine guns can overheat.

look here http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=a5V54VGfvTU

Machine gun overheating is unrealistic uh ? and weapon maintenance too ....

Silenced weapons for semi automatic guns is fine, but for automatic it's an other story ...

Weapon maintenance exists for all weapons even for the most reliable and the most futuristic of them, do you think a soldier never clean his gun ?

K^2
26th Sep 2008, 20:02
I'm sorry but many weapons can overheat, the silenced ones and the machine guns and it's the same for weapon jamming, fire quick bursts can't make that effect (overheating), but a continuous fire yes, all weapons are air cooled (I don't know if we have other cooling systems for weapons), and machine guns can overheat.
There are plenty of modern and historic water-cooled heavy machine guns. These would be the type of weapon that you'd use either from a tripod or install on vehicle or aircraft.

None of the assault rifles or light machine guns would be liquid cooled because of the added weight.

Romeo
26th Sep 2008, 20:46
Overheating and weapon maintenance aren't realistic. Not a single weapon will break down within three days. Practically no modern arms tend to overheat.

As for sniping and projectile delay: well, that's the whole point isn't it? To aim on front of someone so he walks straight into the bullet. Since the distances won't be nearly as big as in real life (I believe they can hit targets at 2 km) it won't be so hard.
For stability problems and the wind etc. there are special computers who calculate all those factors. So in DX there could be some kind of GUI next to the normal scope showing where the bullet will hit. Even if DX3 will be a prequel those things will probably exist or it is likely or at least believable they will exist by then.
RCP90's overheat after two successive fully-auto clips, it's one of the reasons many people dislike them over the base P90. And the AUG does after a while too. I'm sure there are probably other as well, but I only know about those two, because they're some of my favorites. I think the Barretta .50cal has a problem with heat as well, if memory serves.

There are plenty of modern and historic water-cooled heavy machine guns. These would be the type of weapon that you'd use either from a tripod or install on vehicle or aircraft.

None of the assault rifles or light machine guns would be liquid cooled because of the added weight.
Yeah, but we've come a long way in terms of cooling power, I'm surprised we haven't revisited these technologies. They'd make a monstrous difference.

Blade_hunter
27th Sep 2008, 01:57
Yeah I forgot the mounted weapons, thanks for the info :)

The thing I try to demonstrate, is the overheating like many realistic or logical things can be turned to fit the reality or stay in an arcade way.
those things can be fun in many games even in DX.

In DX 1 we have some good semi autos, but the automatic weapons are a bit bad, the assault rifle is the worst when using bullets and the assault shotgun is quite good.

the assault shotgun acts correctly, not too fast ROF, good damage, it's a good short range weapon.

the assault rifle have a great grenade launcher, but it acts in an illogical manner
the grenade launcher, by the size of the weapon it must be a one shot grenade launcher, but it can shot 30 grenades without reloading with its tiny size. an other thing is we can't fire only one bullet, this gun fires always 5 bullets.

I played to a DX mod and it has AR, those AR are better than the DX AR, I don't talk about their design and the fact if they are realistic or not and even if it's a fictional or a real weapon

It does 10 DMG with standard bullets, fire at 300 bullets / min, it has a 30 bullet magazine and a single shot grenade launcher.
it uses the DX features, the change ammo is required when we need to switch to the alternate ammo.
it can fire a single shot bullet
this weapon in therms of function is much better

the DX assault rifle does the same damage as an smg or even lower, the MP5 from HL1 wasn't a good weapon and it will be worse if it uses a standard clip size (30 instead of 50) and haven't its grenade launcher.


The DX AR have a big defect thats the bullet function
if we use again the same weapon or a weapon close to the DX AR I think we can use the following changes:
More damage 5 - 8
More recoil than before in DX it was 0.50, I think it must be 0.55 for the lower values up to 0.70 if the weapon makes a better damage
1 up to 5 - 6 shot grenade launcher (depends of the design)
same clip size (30)
Reduce the accuracy to 60% instead of the 65% (the stealth pistol is less accurate than the AR :( )
Ability to fire a single bullet
ROF between 600 - 400 rpm

With those changes the same weapon is more balanced and better than before, because quick bursts is the tactic and the continuous fire still hard to use.

For those reasons I say and I think the DX AR wasn't correctly made and it's unbalanced when we compare it with the other weapons and haven't a logical "work"...

Romeo
27th Sep 2008, 06:12
Yes, having the weapons be slightly over-powered makes sense, as the extra years of devellopment with regards to weapon research should make for some exceptional weaponary. I still want some variety in weapons though.

gamer0004
27th Sep 2008, 08:40
RCP90's overheat after two successive fully-auto clips, it's one of the reasons many people dislike them over the base P90. And the AUG does after a while too. I'm sure there are probably other as well, but I only know about those two, because they're some of my favorites. I think the Barretta .50cal has a problem with heat as well, if memory serves.

Yeah, but we've come a long way in terms of cooling power, I'm surprised we haven't revisited these technologies. They'd make a monstrous difference.

Exactly. SOME weapons can possibly overheat. But that's only a small part. Personally I don't really care if weapons can overheat in a game, I just think it's stupid that you can use them after like 7 seconds again like nothing has happend. In most cases you'll have to remove the barrel, and do we want that (because that would mean the players would have to carry around spare barrels, maintenance sets and so on)? Don't think so...
Besides DX was 50 years into the future. In 50 years (1950+) there has been a huge advancement in weapon technology. Back then it was pretty common for weapons to overheat (in fact, back in 1940 every automatic machinegun overheated), now it isn't anymore. I don't think overheating will be such a big issue in 2050.

EDIT: In fact we didn't have weapons in DX that could possibly overheat. There were no heavy machineguns. And there isn't really any need for those in DX.

Blade_hunter
27th Sep 2008, 10:40
It's for that reason I say games can manage realistic things in an arcade manner, in the future machine guns will have always the same problem with overheating, the most developed guns are assault rifles, and SMGs.

I'm not a weapon expert, but I use Internet to find the informations about somethings.
Many futuristic games have a weapon overheating feature, and many games with the WW2 theme haven't this feature.

In the future the machines needs always maintenance, like the guns, mechanical machines have always the same problems.

In the vid we have a Minimi (M 249 para) one of the most used machineguns in the world, it's not an oldish weapon
It's a very reliable and modern weapon.

The gatling guns tends to replace many single barrel machine guns because they can fire faster without overheating.
It's due to the fact at each shot the barrel is changed and the fact the barrels rotates when the gun is firing.

Fire 3000 rds per minute in a six barrel minigun it's like we fire with 6 machineguns at 500 rds / min plus a better ventilation.
at this ROF the minigun needs a ton of bullets before overheat and perhaps it never overheat it the ventilation is sufficient to maintain the gun in a good temperature.
The M134 fires 4000 up to 6000 rds / min

the problem of miniguns is they are mounted weapons, even if I heard something about the XM214, but it still a prototype of an infantry minigun.

Guns are machines and all machines needs maintenance and cleaning.
In games realistic things can be managed in an arcade manner.

And if we want to make the overheating sequence more realistic we can add a change barrel sequence like a reload sequence.
The most arcade overheating management I see was in Gunman chronicles, for the machine gun, when it overheats it enters in malfunction and we can't stop it's fire until some seconds if we haven't any bullets.
In this game we have a lightening gun that overheats but when it happen we lose some HP and the gun needs a time to be cold again.

Games are sightly different from reality, if you can't understand that, I can't do anything for that.
Overheating can be fun or bad, but I don't play any game with a worse overheating management, since we have a certain logic (realistic or not) it can balance the game and provides some fun because in all cases overheating needs a certain tactic.

And a silenced assault rifle can overheat

And who says DX 3 wouldn't have a machine gun ?
We have a flamethrower and not a machine gun, I always wanted a machine gun for the game.

I think the debate is close, and we can start again to suggest something ...
because if anyone give false reasons to anything because he don't like a thing, I don't think it can evolve or add something to the game.

This game is an opened game, keep that in mind

gamer0004
27th Sep 2008, 18:12
It's for that reason I say games can manage realistic things in an arcade manner, in the future machine guns will have always the same problem with overheating, the most developed guns are assault rifles, and SMGs.

I'm not a weapon expert, but I use Internet to find the informations about somethings.
Many futuristic games have a weapon overheating feature, and many games with the WW2 theme haven't this feature.


Which is indeed very strange and (because of that)(for me) very annoying. It's just a gimmick.



In the future the machines needs always maintenance, like the guns, mechanical machines have always the same problems.

In the vid we have a Minimi (M 249 para) one of the most used machineguns in the world, it's not an oldish weapon
It's a very reliable and modern weapon.

The gatling guns tends to replace many single barrel machine guns because they can fire faster without overheating.


No they won't. They're too heavy for infantry.



It's due to the fact at each shot the barrel is changed and the fact the barrels rotates when the gun is firing.

Fire 3000 rds per minute in a six barrel minigun it's like we fire with 6 machineguns at 500 rds / min plus a better ventilation.
at this ROF the minigun needs a ton of bullets before overheat and perhaps it never overheat it the ventilation is sufficient to maintain the gun in a good temperature.
The M134 fires 4000 up to 6000 rds / min

the problem of miniguns is they are mounted weapons, even if I heard something about the XM214, but it still a prototype of an infantry minigun.


You probably heard it here on the forums, and as has been explained there it is utter ****



Guns are machines and all machines needs maintenance and cleaning.
In games realistic things can be managed in an arcade manner.


Even an M16 wouldn't have to be cleaned throughout DX and it would still have worked perfectly. DX takes place in about THREE DAYS. And yes, the M16 does require an awful lot of maintenance but not in an urban environment.



And if we want to make the overheating sequence more realistic we can add a change barrel sequence like a reload sequence.


Like I said, the player would have to carry around spare barrels and the like. I really don't want to care about that. I like some inventory management, but this? Besides, it's hard enough for a normal soldier to change a barrel during a firefight, let alone an agent who is on his own. It's in fact impossible. Changing a barrel, if a soldier is very experienced, will always require like 30 seconds. More than enough time for the enemy to run to you and shoot you.



The most arcade overheating management I see was in Gunman chronicles, for the machine gun, when it overheats it enters in malfunction and we can't stop it's fire until some seconds if we haven't any bullets.


Wait, a gun that KEEPS firing if it overheats? That is, really, the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.



In this game we have a lightening gun that overheats but when it happen we lose some HP and the gun needs a time to be cold again.


Thankfully, DX isn't absurd enough to feature lightning guns.



Games are sightly different from reality, if you can't understand that, I can't do anything for that.


I do understand that. I don't really care if something about a game is not very realistic (in fact there were quite some unrealistic things in DX). As long as it doesn't bother me, i.e. as long as it doesn't prevent me from doing anything I would want [keep on shooting] because of something that is very unrealistic [overheating]. Or because I have to do something that is very unrealistic [weapon maintenance] which prevents me from doing anything [going on]. You wouldn't want to have to eat in order to be able to move? Absurd, but that's weapon maintenance as well.
(Bothered me in Oblivion as well. Yes, it's true that swords have to be sharpened and the like after only one or two fights. That's realistic. The problem is that in Oblivion you kill dozens of enemies at once, which is not very realistic (but it doesn't bother me). These two combined was very frustrating.)



Overheating can be fun or bad, but I don't play any game with a worse overheating management, since we have a certain logic (realistic or not) it can balance the game and provides some fun because in all cases overheating needs a certain tactic.


Simply make heavy weapons heavy, making you a sitting duck, and why can't we just have a limited amount of bullets for those kind of weapons?



And a silenced assault rifle can overheat


Okay, one exception. But then again, what would players have to do then? Replace the barrel when there are two enemies shooting at you? It would be very frustrating (unless the AI is realy, really bad, which wouldn't be very nice either). It would be better not to have assault rifle silencers or to forget about overheating.



And who says DX 3 wouldn't have a machine gun ?


I am :rasp: As I have explained elsewhere, machine guns are not very useful in urban envrionments, let alone for a one man army (no, the function of firepower is not (besides bravery :D ) being able to fire more bullets into the body of your opponents).



We have a flamethrower and not a machine gun, I always wanted a machine gun for the game.

I think the debate is close, and we can start again to suggest something ...
because if anyone give false reasons to anything because he don't like a thing, I don't think it can evolve or add something to the game.

This game is an opened game, keep that in mind

LOL please do not say that I am giving "false reasons" because I "don't like [some]thing"... You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
That in itself is no problem because you still have an opinion about what you like or what you don't in games. I respect that. But don't start saying things like that. This is a forum. The idea is to discuss things. If you don't want any discussion about your opinion you should start a blog.

Romeo
27th Sep 2008, 22:00
Alright boys, play nice. And just for the record, Mr Know-It-All, we do have a functioning lightning gun already, it was one Future Weapons. So there. lol

Blade_hunter
27th Sep 2008, 22:07
Ok, I don't know about what I talk about ...

And yes lightening guns are planed like many "fictional weapons tends to be real

gamer0004
28th Sep 2008, 08:33
Alright boys, play nice. And just for the record, Mr Know-It-All, we do have a functioning lightning gun already, it was one Future Weapons. So there. lol

Okay, my mistake. But er what should I imagine as a lightning gun?

Blade_hunter
28th Sep 2008, 12:17
In the future, railguns, lightening guns, laser guns and advanced combat rifles are planed
In DX 1 we have a plasma rifle, in DX 2 a mag rail

In DX we have some prototypes

a lightening gun seems to be a nice prototype

The fiction tends to join the reality, DX is placed in the future and have some true sci fi weapons even in the blessed DX 1

The dragon tooth, the Plasma rifle and the PS20 are the most sci fi of them, but the GEP gun is a sci-fi weapon, even if it looks to be standard and realistic and the Stealth pistol is totally sci fi in the look.

In DX 2 we have the energy blade and its variations, the mag rail as a new prototype, some custom weapons (same models as the standard ones, but other functions)

3nails4you
28th Sep 2008, 14:06
If they bring the Dragon's Tooth Sword back, it BETTER not look like it did in DX2. I'm a stickler for stuff like that, I want my DX1 Dragon's Tooth Sword back...also, I want a gun specifically for killing those nasty greasels *shudder*

Blade_hunter
28th Sep 2008, 15:04
The dragon tooth from IW looks like a katana, a japanese weapon, the DX dragon tooth is more like this sword
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jian

The Chinese "Jian"

This weapon have the closest design with the DX Dragon tooth

I tried to find some Chinese swords and some are without pictures, but the DX standard sword is close to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dao_(sword)

A Dao

One thing I found strange in DX 1 it was the fact we have combat knives in kitchens, Ok for a game like this at this time (2000) for a game it's useless, but find some weapons like some tools (wrenches, kitchen knives)
can be a good addition

The only weapon I found correct in IW was the baton, the baton from DX 1 exists, but the DX 2 baton exists too, I hope the game don't try to make too standard things. a katana for a Chinese weapon can be normal for persons that thinks China = Japan, but for the others it's an other story ...

Romeo
28th Sep 2008, 19:47
Okay, my mistake. But er what should I imagine as a lightning gun?
It's a large, cylindrical weapon held down much like a minigun would be. The gun is a dark grey, and the energy released out of it is a vibrant blue that looks like it wants to consume you. It has two purposes, a stunning effect (not unlike that of the taser) and a flatout lethal level. Although it's perfectly suited to what it does, the designers claim it's more about intimidating people into surrender than actually electricuting them. Just search ''energy future weapons'' on youtube, I think it should pop up.

gamer0004
1st Oct 2008, 10:01
It's a large, cylindrical weapon held down much like a minigun would be. The gun is a dark grey, and the energy released out of it is a vibrant blue that looks like it wants to consume you. It has two purposes, a stunning effect (not unlike that of the taser) and a flatout lethal level. Although it's perfectly suited to what it does, the designers claim it's more about intimidating people into surrender than actually electricuting them. Just search ''energy future weapons'' on youtube, I think it should pop up.

Okay, I was imagining some kind of Death Star laser thingy ;)

Nice avatar btw.

Abram730
5th Oct 2008, 03:35
That depends. The gun breaking/jamming mechanic in SS2 occurred way too often. It's the future, surely a gun can last longer than an few hours.

It really comes down to the timescale in DX3. If it's 1:1 or close to it (ie, the events in a 30 hour game take place over a 30 hour period), then there's not much point in having it.

If the game is spread over a much longer time frame (ala STALKER), then it makes more sense.

I agree a gun would last 30 hours in any possible future.

About crapping out in the real world.

I remember one time talking about different gun's at work and a coworker of mine speaks up and asks us what we think the worst gun ever made was? We gave many different answers and he interrupted and said that the AK-47 was the worst gun ever made. So we all are like WTF are you talking about you can't break it.. you can throw it in mud and it fires. You can drown it and it fires.. You can forget to clean it and it fires. That gun is reliable.. I'd call it one of the best guns ever made, If not the best. He says that's why it's the worst gun ever made.. because it's reliable and doesn't break.. you can't promise to make it better and sell new models. Less cleaning kits and replacement parts. You can't sell people a different kind of AK because it's so trusted. He said it's the worst gun for economic reasons.

Tell that to a soldiers whose guns jam in a fire fight, but that how it goes.

Planned obsolescence / built in obsolescence

Perhaps with some of the extra profits you can Grease some political pockets and keep from loosing contracts to things like dragon skin.

:scratch:
Corporation would build more reliable weapons with time and market pressure, but that pressure needs to be there. Deus ex has the feel that corporation totally drive the market, so things breaking fits into that well. Perhaps Cold, heat, sand and water problems? Powder build up? Your gun gets shot?
:scratch:

I also heard a story about built in obsolescence from my grand father.. back in the day his engineering team at Raytheon noticed some defects in the electronic schematics of some new appliances they bought and that would cause them to fail before their time. They called the engineering team up to point out the defects and they were told it was intentional.

He was very honest, one time he drove 100 miles back to a store to return $0.15 in extra change he got. I would of just kept the money so I'm a bit different. But planned obsolescence really bothered him on a moral level.

Abram730
5th Oct 2008, 04:43
I am not sure how popular this idea is going to be, but I would like to see slightly different guns (of at least one type, say the assault rifle) used by the different factions in the game. It would be nice if each assault rifle (in my example) has certain advantages and disadvantages, but my point is if people at a place see you with a natively used rifle, then they do not think of it; but if they see you with a rifle used by some other faction/or used at another place, then they get suspicious. I got this idea reading Gary Schroen's book, "First In," where he says that his team chose to use the AK47s, rather than American made weapons.

Also, say, an advanced enough skills system is implemented that you get good at a certain kind of rifle by using it. This gets you interested in heavily investing in one type of rifle only. As a consequence, you might be deterred from using a different kind of rifle, even if it is more plentiful, simply because you got very good with your usual rifle, and you are in a very dangerous situation. I got this idea from Marcus Luttrell's book, "Lone Survivor," in which he seems to always use the rifle that he was trained with, despite all the AK47s and plentiful ammo lying all around.

I just figured that the DX3 game could take some RPG cues from these real life situations. I am not saying this should be done for every weapon class (pistol, assault rifle, sniper rifle, etc.), but for one popular weapon, or, at best, a very small selection of very popularly used weapon classes. Any thoughts, anyone?

what do you think about a proficiency ratio with a overall cap?.. using a different rifle for too long causes your skills to drop in the others a bit. It wouldn't need to be a big affect.. just a very subtle change in aim and reload time. No need for it to even be part of the UI.

Romeo
5th Oct 2008, 07:10
Okay, I was imagining some kind of Death Star laser thingy ;)

Nice avatar btw.
I wish.

And everyone does, they're just too scared to admit it.

Abram730
5th Oct 2008, 07:39
Romeo, half of what I do for research is simulation. Believe me, tracking 1,000 bullets on the screen while computing their trajectories to a fraction of an inch accounting for all physical characteristics mentioned above wouldn't make up even 1% of CPU load running typical modern FPS.

I would love to see that in a game... In deus 1 the damage system was great in that if your legs were shot out you fell.

Why sneak around and hack if the game isn't realistic. In pt2 I was expecting dx1+ and got dx- a lot of what made the game great.

The first one didn't even have skeletal animation and it was fun to play 3 times start to finish.

for guns

Modular gun system

or

metal storm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4263191661587439490
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX6YvWxtrxw

FMG9 pocket machine gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QoGr51k-kw

perhapse a
76mm cannon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyAl9qK3Rlg
with air burst shaped charge like the Krakatoa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXp5czdufoQ

simon
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2384236250285414910

9mm DU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPrfOmgELVo

Romeo
5th Oct 2008, 08:20
Yes, that Simon was pretty cool. Still, I find the under-barrel grenade launcher to be fairly similar in function (I'm not overly educated in those matters, mind you).

Abram730
16th Oct 2008, 06:39
The only little technology problem is the fact, the lasers weapons are coming soon on our real universe, the first of these is a blind laser, other lasers are used to help on our aim like the first game or on some realistic games and to guide some missiles.
We try now to make offensive lasers, some lasers have the ability to burn some things at a little distance even some lasers used as spot lights on some shows.
On DX 1 we have a plasma rifle and this rifle is a prototype, but on the sequel we don't see anything about this weapon, the high tech weapon is the railgun and some special weapon variations like the SMG that throws spider mines ...
Lasers weapons doesn't become a sort of star wars because lasers are hitscan weapons, like the primary fire of the UT ASMD or the Q3 railgun or laser weapons from C&C Renegade.
Laser weapons can keep a more conventional look unlike star wars or star trek weapons when a see the near future guns some of them have a look that can be a laser gun if we change some parts

And for the prequel / sequel state I don't want to be sure on this thing because the conversations about it, can be right and wrong, and prequels are already proposed by modifications for the first game.

I agree on the fact the game must be keep some diversity and the fact some items can have a similar action as a biomod it can be different on the manner of use it like the rebreather and the aqualung aug. they have the same function but their manner of using them are very different, their efficiency can be increased at a different manner and they can be used in a combination of each other to stay more longer underwater and I used them on the submarine base to discover some interesting things.

For the fact to get a various items even various guns of the same type some players have proposed this and the original game have some things like this but for the first game it was fantastic because we have some choices and when DX 1 were created it was new for an FPS, DX2 reduced some things, the armor items and rebreather aren't in the game. I want their come back with an other manner to use each item ...

switch to lasers and I'll walk around looking like a disco ball... cheap body armor called a mirror. use microwave weapons and I'll cut up my screen windows and wrap myself in it.. problem solved cheap. Acoustic weapons and ear protection should help.. if not a full helmet and a scuba tank. A rail gun's only effective advantage would be rate of fire unless you were talking about a massive sized guns. There is metal storm for rate of fire(1 million rounds a second max so far).

I think DX was smart not to put them in ;) a certain genius in that. I think we research things like that because it sounds cool and still gives profit to the Military Industrial Complex.

Abram730
16th Oct 2008, 08:21
Yes, but the way in which a D.U. round and a SABOT work is slightly different. Depleted Uranium rounds rely upon mass to pierce their targets, hoping to build enough kinetic energy that way. A SABOT is a durable sharp round which tries to use all it's kinetic energy to "pierce through" it's targets. And neither D.U. rounds nor SABOTs fired from almost any sniper (Save for the Baretta .50 Cal and M1 .50 Cal) will actually go "straight through" tanks, they usually break through the outer armor enough to damage internal systems, or on occasion, pierce their way into the interior. =)

DU SABOT M829 120mm
http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/weapons/sabot_120mm.jpg

-When a DU penetrator hits armour or a hard surface, the
rod begins to self-sharpen, thereby enhancing its ability to
pierce the object.

-DU forms a cloud of finely dispersed particles in air (called
“aerosol”) during penetration. This may cause a dust explosion,
since DU ignites spontaneously in contact with
air (also called “pyrophoric”).

-radiological, like a dirty bomb. Some munitions start out as spent fuel rods in nuclear power plants.

7-9 days after Shock and Awe begain in Iraq, the background radiation in Britain had gone up 400%. What were the radiation levels like in Iraq?

Tstorm
16th Oct 2008, 19:16
Need more close up weapons. I just loved running around with a crowbar and bashing peoples faces. Please don't overpower them like in bioshock where you could manhandle anyone witch a wrench. Melee weapons that make it harder for you to win are so much fun. I even remember running around the extra heavy defense robots and slicing them with the dragon tooth sword.:D

sycomofo
7th Dec 2008, 04:46
Let us not forget the unlimited value of improvisation. I can see it now, you are out of ammo, you dropped all your CQC weapons to make room for that shiny rocket launcher, you are being surrounded by guards. What do you do? It's simple you pick up a microscope and shove it up someone's ass take there gun and kill them with it.:lol:

I'm referring to picking things up out of the environment, and using it as a instrument of destruction.

K^2
7th Dec 2008, 05:13
A rail gun's only effective advantage would be rate of fire unless you were talking about a massive sized guns. There is metal storm for rate of fire(1 million rounds a second max so far).
The real problem with a rail gun is that it requires a truck-load of batteries and caps to make it work. If you could build a portable power supply with required output, rail guns would outperform any form of fire arm. Of course, that is a very big if.

The only modern ultra-portable power plant that can output enough current for a rail gun is an MHD Generator. Problem is, you end up with something not so much different than a standard cartridge in terms of weight, noise, and reliability. You simply keep the slug and cartridge separate. The only benefit I could even think of is having one, bigger cartridge power several slugs. That could improve fire rate of a single burst while reducing odds of a jam. Of course, once you fire a cartridge for MHD Generator, you have to burn the whole thing, since it is essentially a solid fuel rocket. That makes the above approach useful for bursts only, and a big waste for single shots.

Still, I can see burst rail guns replacing assault rifles in certain applications in near future. Something that can deliver incredible bursts of needle-shaped armor piercing slugs can find good use on battle field.

GmanPro
7th Dec 2008, 06:47
It might be cool to have a rail gun in DX3 that feeds off of your bioelectric energy when you fire it. Making it a strategically useful and infrequently used asset for taking out large bots with AP rounds etc. Drawbacks would be that although it is extremely powerful, there wouldn't be much ammo just lying around the place. Making ammo very expensive if you try to buy it from someone. Basically you couldn't use it as your primary weapon. Instead it would be there for special occasions and close encounters. :cool:

APostLife
7th Dec 2008, 07:36
Some nice realistic weapons that are sleek and cool. Not wildly made up laser shooting crap, put some effort researching into good weapons!

spm1138
7th Dec 2008, 07:37
Laser rifles / railguns / particle accelerators are not going to replace standard small arms any time soon.

For one thing there are several fairly big technical hurdles with all of those weapon systems to overcome. Power source is the main issue. There's also various problems with the mechanisms by which those things kill.

For another they just don't offer significant enough advantages over bullets. Bullets work. It's simple technology. It's cheap and cost effective ("13 cent killer"). It's well understood. It's reliable. It can be manufactured in very low tech facilities. I forget who but someone said

The most deadly combat system of the current epoch is the adolescent human male equipped with a Kalashnikov assault rifle

For most weapons in service today there's already a higher tech prototype somewhere in the wings even without Star Wars stuff. Caseless ammunition. Flechette firing rifles. Computer sighted, laser ranged airbursting grenades. Even the humble shotgun has had numerous attempts at producing higher performing ammunition.

All of these projects faltered in the development stage because they just didn't offer enough added effectiveness for what it would have cost to develop them (or because the Berlin wall came down).

I believe they're currently developing a ship mounted railgun and in that context it does make some sense. You don't have to carry charges to fire the round, just the projectile itself and you've already got the electrical gear. Not having a load of explosive gunpowder is probably quite a big upside for a ship.

Er... as for DX3, I presume that railguns are going to be better at going through walls and fly faster and straighter.

It'd be interesting if they required a separate battery / recharging. The main technical hitch would be discharging enough energy quickly enough. Can't see any good reason for making it require BE.

Being able to adjust how powerful the firing mechanism was would be interesting. Perhaps you could have an extra velocity mode that required strength implants. I wonder if there'll be a specialised sniping aug?

K^2
7th Dec 2008, 08:16
For another they just don't offer significant enough advantages over bullets.
That's why rail guns work, though. A slug from a rail gun is no different than a slug from a rifle. The difference is that the slug from rail gun can be more needle-shaped without extra weight of special fittings. Lack of casing can also improve rate of fire and reliability.

That leaves power source, and I do recommend looking up MHD Generator.

spm1138
7th Dec 2008, 14:46
Then we're into the realms of what "significant upgrade" means and all the other factors I mentioned.

MHD generators... this is a prototype at best and a power station sized one at that.

Having grunts carrying around petrol generators, MHD converters, flywheel capacitors etc. does not really seem viable given how simple and effective the alternative is. Not seeing how more complicated is more reliable than simpler.

Projectile shape... bullets being the shape they are may have some upsides.

Check out the FBI's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" report. That describes how bullets kill. It's not just poking a hole through someone. A big slow (relatively, compared to most sci-fi railguns) fragmenting chunk of lead causes a lot of bleeding.
Supposedly flechettes going fast enough slew sideways and break into pieces causing a similar effect. Supposedly.

They did experiment with flechette rounds for shotguns in Vietnam and they were kind of lacking, although I guess that's different to a heavier flechette going faster. I think they also have tank and recoilless rifle sized rounds... although those fire lots at once (turns a tank gun / recoilless rifle into a shotgun). Just being more needle shaped doesn't necessarily have any upsides especially for human targets.

K^2
7th Dec 2008, 20:56
Burst MHD Generators can be ultra-portable. We are talking an element of a rifle, with the jet stream generated by a solid booster slightly bigger than a cartridge for a normal round. It can generate very high currents at low voltage - exactly what you need for a rail gun. Put in an even bigger cartridge, and it will launch a burst of projectiles nearly head-to-tail. There is no conventional rifle that can beat such a rail gun for density of hits resulting from single burst (no time for recoil to change direction of fire) nor in armor piercing capacity.

I'm not saying that rail guns will replace conventional rifles in general any time soon, but they have capacity of augmenting their use on the battle field.

And I know how the bullets kill. Rail gun is not effective against flesh. It doesn't need to be. That's not the purpose. Rail gun is meant to shred armor, and it does so well. The flesh will be torn not by the slug, but by threads and shards from armor of the target. Armor will distribute the impact over a surface area causing pain shock that knocks the target out. Armor will cause cuts and tears that will result in bleeding that will ultimately kill the target.

In the near future, exoskeletal armor will become sufficiently advanced to find use on battle field. Prototypes exist already. Unlike kevlar, such armor will hold even steel-core rounds from most automatic rifle. You'll need either a small cumulative charge or a very high powered rifle to penetrate such armor. Similar to the kinds of rounds used against early tanks. An assault rifle will be unable to penetrate such armor, and the specialized anti-tank rifles are extremely large. Rail guns can fill the niche, being much more portable than anti-tank rifle, and at the same time extremely effective against both kevlar-based light armor and medium exoskeleton armor.

Yargo
7th Dec 2008, 21:13
My favorite exoskeleton is the Terran marines'. :D The suiting up of Tychus Findlay kicks a$$. That and the Iron man suit is enough to make anyone geek out. :D

i_is_a_moose
7th Dec 2008, 21:16
I really liked the Plasma Rifle, especially with maxed out range, accuracy, recoil, and ammo mods, it could take down a normal bot. I also really liked the system used for LAMS, I missed that multi-pupose grenade in DX2.

Romeo
8th Dec 2008, 02:51
The real problem with a rail gun is that it requires a truck-load of batteries and caps to make it work. If you could build a portable power supply with required output, rail guns would outperform any form of fire arm. Of course, that is a very big if.

The only modern ultra-portable power plant that can output enough current for a rail gun is an MHD Generator. Problem is, you end up with something not so much different than a standard cartridge in terms of weight, noise, and reliability. You simply keep the slug and cartridge separate. The only benefit I could even think of is having one, bigger cartridge power several slugs. That could improve fire rate of a single burst while reducing odds of a jam. Of course, once you fire a cartridge for MHD Generator, you have to burn the whole thing, since it is essentially a solid fuel rocket. That makes the above approach useful for bursts only, and a big waste for single shots.

Still, I can see burst rail guns replacing assault rifles in certain applications in near future. Something that can deliver incredible bursts of needle-shaped armor piercing slugs can find good use on battle field.
Depends on what you were looking for. Railguns require alot of maintence, whereas a coilgun requires almost none at all. A coilgun also tends to have a better rate-of-fire. Of course, the downside to a coilgun is that it doesn't pack quite as much power as a railgun.

GmanPro
8th Dec 2008, 02:55
My favorite exoskeleton is the Terran marines'. :D The suiting up of Tychus Findlay kicks a$$. That and the Iron man suit is enough to make anyone geek out. :D

Warhammer 40k Space Marines look so much better and you know it.

Yargo
8th Dec 2008, 03:54
Warhammer 40k Space Marines look so much better and you know it.

I think they look pretty much the same, with the Warhammer suits being a little more individually personalized. Ever been to a Games Workshop? I used to do the LoTR game just costs to much. Painting the pieces was the coolest part. :thumb:

GmanPro
8th Dec 2008, 03:59
It took so long, but yeah it was fun as hell to customize the units however u wanted. My brother had an Ultramarines Force Commander, Calgar I think his name was, and he put several Dark Eldar severed heads around his belt. I thought that looked so pro.

spm1138
8th Dec 2008, 04:03
I prefer Shirow's sneakier power armour with sensors for checking round corners :D

His explanations about sneaky = survivable make sense.

I wouldn't hold your breath for real live combat power armour though.

The idea has been in the offing since... ooh at least the 70s (there's a research paper about something called a Pittman).

Look at Landwarrior.

Yargo
8th Dec 2008, 04:32
It took so long, but yeah it was fun as hell to customize the units however u wanted. My brother had an Ultramarines Force Commander, Calgar I think his name was, and he put several Dark Eldar severed heads around his belt. I thought that looked so pro.

My best was a black robed Sauroman who had the white hand on his back. He looked awesome and had the palantir so he could cast spells anywhere on the map.

K^2
8th Dec 2008, 05:36
I wouldn't hold your breath for real live combat power armour though.
Average combat-ready male has a mass in the neighborhood of 80kg and expends an average of 100W to move about. The power consumption can peak up to about 500W. This is still less than a single horse power.

1cm thick tank armor plated around the same male will have a mass of roughly 240kg, or about 3x as much as the pilot. It will be impervious to any modern combat rifle, except to high powered steel-core rounds at point-blank range. For the most part, we can consider it indestructible against rifles.

Extrapolating the same power consumption requirements, it will need about 300W to operate normally with 1.5kW at peak performance. That's an equivalent of a 2HP engine. Fitting it onto the back of the unit would not be difficult. Alternatively, there are now batteries with sufficient power output and capacity.

There are only two problems. First, reading intent to move from pilot's muscles and following them smoothly. Second, building actuators capable of delivering the required forces to the joints.

The first of these two problems has been mostly resolved just in the past few years. There are now exoskeletons that follow movements the way that power armor will need to. Second portion is still a bit of a problem, but again, we have been making extremely good progress on electromagnetic drives in the past few years.

In the 70's, the resources to build such things simply weren't there. We are only now getting to the point where this is feasible. Within the next few years, it will become a matter of engineering, and military will make sure that the needed engineering is done. Real combat power armor is just a few years away at most. Some prototypes might even already exist.

The rules of combat are going to change very fast in the next decade. All the things that military has been spending money on for the past 3-4 decades are coming to be right now. Unmanned aircraft are now more than just spy drones. Robotic walkers for carrying ammunition are testing out nicely. AI-controlled vehicles can finally safely navigate landscape without a driver on board. Power armor is just around the horizon. Various energy weapons are becoming a reality. Massive rail guns are being tested to replace large cannons on ships. Low orbit single-stage rockets are being designed to deliver troops to any part of the planet in a matter of hours.

The situation is very similar to the brink of WWI. There are all these new technologies for warfare that nobody knows quite how to use properly on the battlefield, so they aren't being used for small operations a whole lot. They are waiting a bigger conflict. But once it starts, it will be the same leap as WWI's transition from cavalry charges to aerial dog fights.

GmanPro
8th Dec 2008, 05:41
Probably still not a good idea to hold your breath until then though...

K^2
8th Dec 2008, 06:52
That wouldn't be healthy, no.

Kahlell
20th Dec 2008, 01:06
A better version of the MagRail, that gun was awesome! I liked being able to take out both tech enemies, and organic with one weapon.

Radox Redux
20th Dec 2008, 01:14
I know somebody else has probably already suggested this, but I ain't reading thirteen pages to verify... but I want a skull-gun. Plus, something that can shoot around corners. And although it's not a weapon, we should get one of the holographic dummies from Total Recall,... perhaps as a prox mine.

NK007
20th Dec 2008, 04:06
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE no uber weapons like the dragon's tooth and railgun. The Railgun was OK because it took a lot of uni-ammo, but the dragon's tooth was sort of a game breaker IMO.

GmanPro
20th Dec 2008, 05:23
^^

I liked the Dragon's Tooth. It wasn't all that overpowered when you're playing on realistic because if you get into a fight with several MJ12 commandos and you're trying to hack them with a sword, they just headshot you. Plus it wasn't helpful against big bots or mechs who explode when they die. And heavily secured doors/locks still need explosives to bust open. So imo, the Dragon's Tooth was a niche weapon and not overpowered.

auric
20th Dec 2008, 06:34
^^

I liked the Dragon's Tooth. It wasn't all that overpowered when you're playing on realistic because if you get into a fight with several MJ12 commandos and you're trying to hack them with a sword, they just headshot you. Plus it wasn't helpful against big bots or mechs who explode when they die. And heavily secured doors/locks still need explosives to bust open. So imo, the Dragon's Tooth was a niche weapon and not overpowered.

I use it to
- Break boxes, & doors
- Kill normal people & MIB (hit & run to avoid the explosion)
- Free lighting

NK007
20th Dec 2008, 14:06
^^

I liked the Dragon's Tooth. It wasn't all that overpowered when you're playing on realistic because if you get into a fight with several MJ12 commandos and you're trying to hack them with a sword, they just headshot you. Plus it wasn't helpful against big bots or mechs who explode when they die. And heavily secured doors/locks still need explosives to bust open. So imo, the Dragon's Tooth was a niche weapon and not overpowered.

If you sneak a little bit, and angle it right, u can kill everybody with the dragon's tooth besides the bosses in one hit :\. I think it to be overpowered... once I got the DTS, I didn't use anything else.

Wildeheart
23rd Dec 2008, 23:28
How about some of these.

Flash Freeze Mine.
You can place the mine on horizontal or vertical surfaces. It will emit a sonar pulse and if the pulse return is disrupted it'll flash freeze everything within a certain radius.

Ganglia Disruptor
A short range weapon that sends a quick series of magnetic and sonic waves disrupting neurological systems. Affected targets are temporarily afflicted with drastically altered depth perception and inhibited motor skills. Multiple use effects can stack leading to temporary paralysis and even shut down nervous system functions dealing with respiration and circulatory systems, leading to death.

Hitcher Bolt
A bolt shot designed to release specialized nano technology that temporarily hijacks sensory relays in organic brain systems. Information received by the target is sent to a monitoring device. The monitoring device can show target body temperature, heart rate, vague visual imagery and sound. The nanites can be set to auto destruct safely or violently leaving the target alive or harming them. Also acts as a tracking device.

Glitch Hitcher Bolt
Also designed to release specialized nano technology, this hijacks the nervous system and loops all bio-electrical current for a short duration. Target attempts to repeat their physical actions, if unable they will spasm. Also during the hijack their sensory perception is looped, allowing you to walk past them without being noticed, or trick them into thinking you are still somewhere you are not. The nanites can be set to auto destruct safely or violently leaving the target alive or harming them.

Organic Alteration Compound
This is basically a compound that when applied to organic matter will make it highly volatile and explode under extreme temperatures. It can be applied to multi-organisms or even something as simple as blood. Setting fire to, or freezing the affected target will cause it to explode.

Hellfire Delivery System
A weapon that fires specially designed projectiles that release gases causing a trail of fire. On contact the rest of the gas is released causing an area of effect fire bomb. The longer the projectile flies before hitting a surface will significantly reduce the AOE fire bomb radius. The fire trail can burn objects close to the trail of the projectile.

Kinetic Force Compound
A substance that instantly bonds to a surface and eventually disintegrates. It softens inital impacts and then accelerates kinetic energy in the reaction. Bouncing objects off these surfaces will increase their kinetic force causing them to fly faster and hit harder. A Hellfire projectile will not explode against these surfaces, but instead bounce off them.
You can use it on the floor and jump on it too.
Using it on a melee weapon will increase it's recoil and decrease it's stopping power.

V.O.I.D system
3-4 nodes can be placed on surfaces which create a 2 to 3 dimensional field. This field disrupts particle direction and energy magnitude. Visual sensors cannot obtain information past this field, the area appears as actual static, and objects sent through the field become stuck. A thrown grenade, for example, will freeze in the air when it attempts to pass through the field.

Atremis Explosive Device
A device which can be prepared by identifying targets as friendly or hostile.
Once the device is thrown it calculates target proximity and modifies it's delivery system to create a blast direction which won't hurt targets marked as friendly. Targets don't need to be NPCs.

Brilliant post. I think all these were great.

Personally I'd change the kinetic force compound to increase stopping power on melee weapons or otherwise what's the use in being able to?

Also I wouldn't make the organic alteration compound explode on freezing just on fire, otherwise it wouldn't be logical to me at least.

Other than that they're all great.

As far as my thoughts on the subject go, I'd love to see some kind of gun that could deliver a stasis bubble. A spherical field a few feet across you can cast onto npcs or objects in the world. Imagine feezing objects for level exploration or popping out from behind cover to lock a group of enemies in stasis before running round knocking them all out with the prod or a suitable melee weapon :)

NK007
23rd Dec 2008, 23:37
I would love to see a grenade that turns people gay. They're actually working on that now, so I guess by 2027 it would be operational.

Blade_hunter
24th Dec 2008, 00:12
LOL and a lipstick that would make people in love when they see Adam with it :P

A love potion you put it in the soldier's meal and when they eat their meal, they love each others and the non contaminated foes runs to avoid their comrades :P

:lol: :nut:

sycomofo
24th Dec 2008, 04:36
Multi-barreled-grenade-launcher-emplacement.:nut: Need I say more.
Imagine seeing that in a multiplayer fight.:eek:

Blade_hunter
24th Dec 2008, 05:34
And a multi barrelled GEP GUN XD

LatwPIAT
24th Dec 2008, 10:16
I would love to see a grenade that turns people gay. They're actually working on that now, so I guess by 2027 it would be operational.

Eh, no. The project was discontinued years (Decades?) ago, because, honestly, it's a dumb idea. To begin with, it relies on the concept that you can "turn people homosexual" with chemicals. This relies on a specific, untested hypothesis about how sexual attraction is formed in the brain. There is no conclusive scientific proof that this is even possible! Secondly, why would you want to turn someone into homosexuals? It serves no purpose at all. So, suddenly everyone in the enemy army are homosexuals. So what? They can still shoot straight!

It's the most ridiculous idea since the American bat firebomb. No, wait. It's more ridiculous than the bat firebomb. There is in fact no idea known to me that is more ridiculous!

gamer0004
24th Dec 2008, 10:57
Eh, no. The project was discontinued years (Decades?) ago, because, honestly, it's a dumb idea. To begin with, it relies on the concept that you can "turn people homosexual" with chemicals. This relies on a specific, untested hypothesis about how sexual attraction is formed in the brain. There is no conclusive scientific proof that this is even possible! Secondly, why would you want to turn someone into homosexuals? It serves no purpose at all. So, suddenly everyone in the enemy army are homosexuals. So what? They can still shoot straight!

It's the most ridiculous idea since the American bat firebomb. No, wait. It's more ridiculous than the bat firebomb. There is in fact no idea known to me that is more ridiculous!

How about renaissance style in a DX game?

NK007
24th Dec 2008, 11:41
Eh, no. The project was discontinued years (Decades?) ago, because, honestly, it's a dumb idea. To begin with, it relies on the concept that you can "turn people homosexual" with chemicals. This relies on a specific, untested hypothesis about how sexual attraction is formed in the brain. There is no conclusive scientific proof that this is even possible! Secondly, why would you want to turn someone into homosexuals? It serves no purpose at all. So, suddenly everyone in the enemy army are homosexuals. So what? They can still shoot straight!

It's the most ridiculous idea since the American bat firebomb. No, wait. It's more ridiculous than the bat firebomb. There is in fact no idea known to me that is more ridiculous!

Wouldn't that be the best secret bonus weapon ever though?

Necros
24th Dec 2008, 12:08
How about renaissance style in a DX game?
Not ridiculous at all. :)

GmanPro
24th Dec 2008, 19:14
There is in fact no idea known to me that is more ridiculous!

How about half of gamer0004's arguments...?

gamer0004
24th Dec 2008, 21:50
How about half of gamer0004's arguments...?

There are none. Truth is on my side :rasp:

LatwPIAT
24th Dec 2008, 22:19
How about renaissance style in a DX game?

Wouldn't that be the best secret bonus weapon ever though?

Not ridiculous at all. :)
Ahem:

Secondly, why would you want to turn someone into homosexuals? It serves no purpose at all. So, suddenly everyone in the enemy army are homosexuals. So what? They can still shoot straight!
Bold for emphasis.
---
It is also extremely offensive to the LGQBTTAAF crowd. And all other forms of aforementioned groups.

How about half of gamer0004's arguments...?
No, they're only slightly more ridiculous than the pigeon-guided cruise missile.

GmanPro
25th Dec 2008, 04:13
No, they're only slightly more ridiculous than the pigeon-guided cruise missile.

:whistle:

http://www.worms2.com/images/icons/good_weap_pige.gif

Homing Pigeon F1 x4 (Max Damage 75)
This weapon is similar to the Homing Missile, but unlike the Homing Missile it doesn't take up as much room when arming itself. This means it has much more use in confined spaces, such as caverns. Don't rely on the pigeon too much though, they have a tendency to get a bit confused and wander off track. (Having said that, who wouldn't get a little confused if they had just been fired into the air with half a ton of high explosives strapped to their back?)

Also, don't forget that the Pigeon is a timed weapon. If it doesn't reach its target after a few seconds, it'll simply fall out of the sky and destroy whatever it happens to land on.

My favorite is still the super banana bomb...

Blade_hunter
25th Dec 2008, 05:18
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yhky437kqA

:) ....:D

:) :) :)
:D :D :D :thumb:

GmanPro
25th Dec 2008, 05:34
Ok I have a new weapon favorite now... :D

K^2
25th Dec 2008, 06:35
:whistle:
http://www.worms2.com/images/icons/good_weap_pige.gif
My favorite is still the super banana bomb...
Sheep-on-a-Rope. Nothing will ever beat that weapon.

LatwPIAT
25th Dec 2008, 07:35
:whistle:

http://www.worms2.com/images/icons/good_weap_pige.gif


My favorite is still the super banana bomb...

Heh. Worms. Haven't played that in ages. I'm serious though. The bat firebomb and pigeon-guided cruise missile were real weapons project during WWII.

NK007
25th Dec 2008, 10:50
I can't be bothered to read through 14 pages, so I'll just say: I want a SAW.

A fully automatic, belt fed, over 10 kilo, weapon of mass destruction complete with a bipod for awesomeness. I really want to rip into a group of stupid enemies with one... I hope DX 3 is bloody enough.

Digitaldruid
25th Dec 2008, 11:13
my take is dx3 should feel as real as possible in regards to weapon mechanics. the guns ought to represent a evolutionary change rather than revolutionary compare to their present day counterparts. also i think addition of small tactical weapons like a futuristic version of mp7,p90,spas 15 etc.
dx2 had very little to offer in terms of sniping opportunities compared to its predecessor and i hope this changes with dx3. i don't want be running around tight spaces with a bolt action sniper rifle. I'd rather have a marksman weapon like a modified hk417/418 which does full auto/burst fire in shorter ranges (probably in CQB situations) and can be used as a short range sniper rifle with a limited range of 250-500 meters in single shot mode.

spm1138
25th Dec 2008, 14:00
418? 416?

Digitaldruid
25th Dec 2008, 14:04
HK 416 is a carbine and it fires 5.56 rounds. the HK 417/418 are rifle editions which fires Nato 7.62 rounds the 418 is the marksman variant of 417. basically what I'm trying to put forward is instead of a dedicated sniper it is possible to have a highly accurate marksman rifle.

NK007
25th Dec 2008, 14:11
my take is dx3 should feel as real as possible in regards to weapon mechanics. the guns ought to represent a evolutionary change rather than revolutionary compare to their present day counterparts. also i think addition of small tactical weapons like a futuristic version of mp7,p90,spas 15 etc.
dx2 had very little to offer in terms of sniping opportunities compared to its predecessor and i hope this changes with dx3. i don't want be running around tight spaces with a bolt action sniper rifle. I'd rather have a marksman weapon like a modified hk417/418 which does full auto/burst fire in shorter ranges (probably in CQB situations) and can be used as a short range sniper rifle with a limited range of 250-500 meters in single shot mode.

If you do that, that's it: you never need another weapon again. Just throw the pistol, the sniper rifle, the plasma rifle, the shotgun, flamethrower, the dart gun, the machine gun - everything. Just take an HK418 with a single\full auto option and you're finished.

It's more fun to have weapons to balance each other out instead of just having one all-useful weapon.

Blade_hunter
25th Dec 2008, 14:56
We have no perfect weapon on our world Assault carbines are the most multi-functional weapons, but they weren't perfect at all they provides a multi use weapon like a support for a grenade launcher or a shotgun, a wide variety of scopes/sights for most ranges, and many other accessories that allow to one weapon a lot of functions, and sometimes an SMG configuration
The bullpup assault rifles allow the same things even if the man design is different.
but those rifles doesn't eliminate the other rifles such as sniper rifles, and other machine guns and shotguns.
sometimes it's better to have a dedicated weapon than a multi-function weapon
with a dedicated weapon we have some advantages like no useless weight and proper sights. in our hands, and the multi-function weapons allows to have our secondary weapon in hand, extra ammo etc ...

the military industry tries to develop advanced combat rifles to have a much better rifle than the actual ones...

Digitaldruid
25th Dec 2008, 15:16
sigh you guys are completely overlooking the point I'm try to put across :whistle: . in the real world most spec-op teams carry a large range of weapons. a assortment of rifles,shotguns,pistols,sniper rifles tailored for their mission needs. but you rarely see them running around with heavier systems like a tripod mounted SAW,light mortar,rocket launchers and .50 cal heavy snipers. so i would imagine a lone wolf mechanically augmented agent like Adam being armed with lighter and highly customized weapons rather than being burdened with heavy weapons and armor. :D

NK007
25th Dec 2008, 15:24
I know it's more realistic that way, but I just think it's just so much more fun to have weapons that are ridiculous counterparts of each other - sniper rifle is powerful but loads so slow and the zoom is times 10 or something, the shotgun is useless in medium range, the assault gun has a real wide bullet spread etc.

I love it.

NK007
25th Dec 2008, 17:26
AJ must also have this:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_3E4JRtHlVHY/RwJoYdfLF7I/AAAAAAAAAPc/vuJVGty2lbk/s1600-h/robocop2.gif

spm1138
25th Dec 2008, 17:41
HK 416 is a carbine and it fires 5.56 rounds. the HK 417/418 are rifle editions which fires Nato 7.62 rounds the 418 is the marksman variant of 417. basically what I'm trying to put forward is instead of a dedicated sniper it is possible to have a highly accurate marksman rifle.

Ah cheers. Wasn't aware they'd given the marksman version a separate model number.


sigh you guys are completely overlooking the point I'm try to put across :whistle: . in the real world most spec-op teams carry a large range of weapons. a assortment of rifles,shotguns,pistols,sniper rifles tailored for their mission needs. but you rarely see them running around with heavier systems like a tripod mounted SAW,light mortar,rocket launchers and .50 cal heavy snipers. so i would imagine a lone wolf mechanically augmented agent like Adam being armed with lighter and highly customized weapons rather than being burdened with heavy weapons and armor. :D

Actually they do use that stuff where appropriate. Equipment tends to vary by mission.

For hostage rescue and the like, sure it's going to be short guns and shotguns. That's a very specific scenario though.

For "green" missions most special forces units will carry at least light machineguns (like the SAW). Rifles and carbines don't really put down the volume of fire required for suppression fire (like when breaking contact with a superior force).

Heavier machineguns (SEAL teams especially like their 7.62 machineguns) and even mortars aren't unheard of, especially if vehicles are being used. They've even started mounting miniguns and 20mm cannons on offroad vehicles of one sort or another.

Ditto armour. Sometimes it's used, sometimes it isn't. It's a trade off with weight and mobility on one side vs. capability on the other.

I'd like to see that in DX3 too. Like some advantages for taking a smaller/lighter load (you're sneakier and quicker) vs. doing it Rambo style.

Digitaldruid
25th Dec 2008, 20:11
I'd like to see that in DX3 too. Like some advantages for taking a smaller/lighter load (you're sneakier and quicker) vs. doing it Rambo style.

In Dx1 it was suicide going Rambo against MIB's and MJ12 commandos in the higher difficulty mode. they deal a LOT!! of damage and soak up a lot of damage and it was a waste of resources (ammo,healing kits,bio cell etc) and in a way it felt very realistic.
IMO using a extensive arsenal of heavy weapons in a story / smart game play driven game like DX tends to rob it of immersion. combat should feel fast and slick and not like the next world war.

NK007
26th Dec 2008, 00:32
I have been sneaking around the game for some time, occasionally shooting someone in the head with a sniper rifle or a three way fight with an assault rifle. But there were those 5-6 moments in the game where the GEP was just there, with ammo, and when you shot that thing at a group of enemies... The realization that now that you pulled that trigger, the course cannot be changed, you see your victim standing there for the last time, and you know it's gonna be over in just a second. You stand there, waiting to hear it. The sweetest sound there is... After that audible orgasm, the smoke from the missile starts fading away and see the remains of the door, the boxes, whatever, and what used to be your enemies - now mere entrails. I have rarely felt such joy in games. Doing this to important NPCs was really, really fun.

Damn IW.

Blade_hunter
26th Dec 2008, 18:25
Don't forget DX allow a little the rambo style, it encourages to use infiltration, it don't force to use infiltration, and even if we are rambo stylized players, the infiltration can help to choose the best position to begin an assault / combat and take less damage and spend less ammo

NK007
26th Dec 2008, 18:49
Already stated in multiple threads I'm a stealth player. I used to be a pure stealth player, knifing everyone. However I started finding myself in a situation where I was sitting on enough ammo and weapons to occupy a small country, I started having fun.

Romeo
30th Dec 2008, 06:46
Already stated in multiple threads I'm a stealth player. I used to be a pure stealth player, knifing everyone. However I started finding myself in a situation where I was sitting on enough ammo and weapons to occupy a small country, I started having fun.
My favorite was always sneaking up on people, only to open up with the loudest bloody gun I could find. lol

NK007
30th Dec 2008, 16:18
My favorite was always sneaking up on people, only to open up with the loudest bloody gun I could find. lol

Yeah, opening up with a GEP on a group of enemies having a conversation, from a vent opening, was so satisfying.

Jerion
30th Dec 2008, 18:33
Yeah, opening up with a GEP on a group of enemies having a conversation, from a vent opening, was so satisfying.

Same with Louis Pan. :whistle:

Spyhopping
30th Dec 2008, 18:50
Same with Louis Pan. :whistle:

Kid: You're the spy, huh?
The metal guys knew you were coming.
They have a plan. They're gonna kill you.
You better go back.

beep beep beep beep beeeeeep whoosh-boom-splatter :D


That kid made me feel really paranoid on my first playthrough

Blade_hunter
30th Dec 2008, 22:16
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcd62GR6oCM
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=CUfvjQMzMTc

JC himself is a weapon :D

TrickyVein
1st Jan 2009, 18:10
YES! AJ should be able to perform headbites like the alien species from AvP - teeth should come down from the top and up from the bottom of the screen (with his cig stuck in them of course) and a mechanically augmented tongue should shoot out and bore holes in peoples faces!!!

Or, I'd like to able to sneak up behind someone and break their neck (same thing like above, only AJ's hands would come up, ready to do some killing).

jordan_a
1st Jan 2009, 19:07
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8463/holyiconos9.jpg

NK007
2nd Jan 2009, 01:04
YES! AJ should be able to perform headbites like the alien species from AvP - teeth should come down from the top and up from the bottom of the screen (with his cig stuck in them of course)

What's up, CoolDude?

Blade_hunter
2nd Jan 2009, 15:38
He wants to be a cyber vampire :P

Romeo
2nd Jan 2009, 22:40
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8463/holyiconos9.jpg
Halleluyah! BOOOOM! That was right up there with the super banana bomb, sheep strike and concrete donkey for best weapons of all time. However, they all bow before the prod.

K^2
3rd Jan 2009, 01:36
http://worms2d.info/images/d/d3/Sheeponarope.gif

GmanPro
3rd Jan 2009, 04:57
I love those games lol. Someone should make a new one.

K^2
3rd Jan 2009, 05:09
They have a couple of 3D ones, but these aren't as good. There are also 2 PSP games (one also available on 360 Arcade). But you are still better off sticking with Armageddon. Since development of Armageddon has been picked up by community, there is nothing that can even touch it. It has all of the good weapons, custom bitmap maps, almost no bugs left, and there is a recording option that lets you watch the games afterwards.

Personally, I feel like Team17 has lost their touch. It'd be nice to see someone else make a good artillery game. I don't think the genre is dead in 3D. It shouldn't be written off just because neither T17 nor a couple of rip-off attempts managed to make something good out of it.

Romeo
4th Jan 2009, 01:52
They have indeed lost their touch. The 3D ones just didn't feel like worms to me, and the PSP and XBLA ones are both incredibly watered down, when they don't need to be. You're right, Armageddon or World Party are much, much better alternatives.

Moon Hoplite
24th Feb 2009, 06:39
We need the plasma gun back. :)

It was pretty cool back in Deus Ex, especially if you added laser sight.

It makes the game feel futuristic, and satisfies you with a good powerful yet technological weapon.

I reckon the old model of the gun was good, I liked the plasma gun from doom 3 though, maybe something different should be made - but it has to look cool :) .

Romeo
28th Feb 2009, 06:19
We need the plasma gun back. :)

It was pretty cool back in Deus Ex, especially if you added laser sight.

It makes the game feel futuristic, and satisfies you with a good powerful yet technological weapon.

I reckon the old model of the gun was good, I liked the plasma gun from doom 3 though, maybe something different should be made - but it has to look cool :) .
For looks, I really liked the BFG from the Doom movie, the effects on it were nothing short of spectacular. But yes, I wouldn't argue with having the plasma gun back, especially as it would probably still be in it's infancy, provides the opportunity for some background plot/information.

jamhaw
28th Feb 2009, 18:40
I think that the plasma gun was already in it's infancy in the original DX so having it in the new game would just cause continiuity problems.

auric
28th Feb 2009, 18:43
They may still have that tiny prototype plasma.

facepalm
28th Feb 2009, 18:57
They may still have that tiny prototype plasma.

I doubt that the PS20 is a prototype weapon. In fact, the extent to which it has been miniaturized implies that it is more advanced than it's big brother, the plasma rifle.

Edit: it is said to be "the next generation stealth pistol" in-game, so it definitely cannot exist during DX3's time perioid.

auric
28th Feb 2009, 19:04
poor design for stealth
single shot & very noisy & leaves a lot of marks.
:)

facepalm
28th Feb 2009, 19:13
I wouldn't say it's poorly designed. It's easily concealed and one shot almost guarantees a kill, meaning it is perfect for assassins.

You can literally walk around in the Underworld Bar with a PS20 drawn, no one will notice a thing.

auric
28th Feb 2009, 19:19
Its only good for emergency (run out of ammo) so take a snap shot with it.

It's poor for assassination attempts (not that it will fail to kill but) because:
- Its noisy & has a trail, which leads to the shooter.
- Its identifiable as to what type of weapon
- It leaves the shooter unarmed after the single shot is gone, might as well use the standard pistol like 47 does.

- Its slow, giving people chance to dodge after hearing the noise.

facepalm
28th Feb 2009, 19:34
The fact that it can comfortably fit inside your clenched fist means it is easier to hide. You get in close to your target, fire the shot and disappear quickly, like any professional hitman would prefer to do it.

Besides, a weapon like the PS20 would be ideal for home or personal defense.

auric
28th Feb 2009, 19:39
1. The fact that it can comfortably fit inside your clenched fist means it is easier to hide. You get in close to your target, fire the shot and disappear quickly, like any professional hitman would prefer to do it.

2. Besides, a weapon like the PS20 would be ideal for home or personal defense.

2. Hence "emergencies"

1. 47 did well with his 2 baulers. ;)

3. Like I said, its only good at killing but not staying hidden & anonymous, which are important too unless the user don't bother getting noticed/caught.

Spyhopping
28th Feb 2009, 19:43
Besides, a weapon like the PS20 would be ideal for home or personal defense.

A shotgun is probably more useful for home defense.
Though it would be good for a woman to carry around inside her handbag for safety I suppose... some sort of ultra extreme alternative to a pepper spray :eek:

auric
28th Feb 2009, 19:45
A shotgun is probably more useful for home defense.
Though it would be good for a woman to carry around inside her handbag for safety I suppose... some sort of ultra extreme alternative to a pepper spray :eek:

If she don't mind scars.
Remember, unlike pepper sprays, the plasma may score her skin at close range.
Which is usually how far the assailant would be.
:)

facepalm
28th Feb 2009, 19:56
3. Like I said, its only good at killing but not staying hidden & anonymous, which are important too unless the user don't bother getting noticed/caught.

If my plan was to stay hidden, I'd take a weapon the size of a lighter over a standard handgun any day. If you're carrying a piece with a silencer, it will prove to be very difficult to smuggle past security. And I'd wager that the PS20 is considerably more silent than any conventional handgun without a silencer.


Remember, unlike pepper sprays, the plasma may score her skin at close range.

Beats getting raped and murdered, if you ask me.

El_Bel
1st Mar 2009, 11:36
Shifter fixes PS20. Now you can carry as many as you can fit in your inventory.

Jerion
1st Mar 2009, 12:37
A shotgun is probably more useful for home defense.
Though it would be good for a woman to carry around inside her handbag for safety I suppose... some sort of ultra extreme alternative to a pepper spray :eek:

Yeah, probably as a more threatening alternative to a stun gun.



Beats getting raped and murdered, if you ask me.

Ditto.

Blade_hunter
1st Mar 2009, 14:33
Shifter also fixed it's effectiveness in an other way it given more power to that gun, even if we can make a weapon like the PS 20 with more that one shot, just like the Fire extinguisher in IW (to use an example in DX) and we throw the weapon and take an other if we got an other one, the shots power were in damage therms weaker than the Shifter's PS 20 and mor powerful than the one in DX (something less rocket / grenade like)

remmus
1st Mar 2009, 18:42
a whole freaking pile of melee weapons: seriusly a nice game mechanic that alow you to convert anything from a bottle of booze to a office chair into a viable weapon.


cybernetic weapons: must have, a cool thing for the arm would be a modular system where you could "unscrew" the end of your arm and attach eavrything from a miniture chainsaw to a arm smg


more expotic stuff: the more way we don´t use lead to kill at range the better, flamethrowers, throwing knifes, rail gun (or if not that atleast something akin to the HV 10 Penetrator from F.E.A.R)

my 2 credits

Blade_hunter
1st Mar 2009, 19:23
Ah, cool ! this reminds me the "everyday" weapons idea in this thread ^^ , since deus ex got some of them, the crowbar is a perfect example

Mindmute
1st Mar 2009, 19:56
a whole freaking pile of melee weapons: seriusly a nice game mechanic that alow you to convert anything from a bottle of booze to a office chair into a viable weapon.


I'd like the idea of using random objects from the scenery as weapons, as long as their effectiveness/durability would be balanced to avoid making the "dedicated" meele weapons useless.



cybernetic weapons: must have, a cool thing for the arm would be a modular system where you could "unscrew" the end of your arm and attach eavrything from a miniture chainsaw to a arm smg


No. If anything even resembling a "chainsaw-bayonet" is announced for the game, I'm forget it on the spot.
We already have the blade-arm augmentation, that's enough in my opinion.



more expotic stuff: the more way we don´t use lead to kill at range the better, flamethrowers, throwing knifes, rail gun (or if not that atleast something akin to the HV 10 Penetrator from F.E.A.R)


I'd love throwing knifes and possibly a flamethrower, if they're anything like the ones from DX1. However the flamethrower in DX1 was offset by making you very slow and for taking ages to reload unless you invested points into it, since this sort of thing is no longer present, I'm afraid it'd be an "I win" button at close/medium range.
No railgun... The damn thing was a prototype in DX:IW, which is a lot further into the future.

remmus
1st Mar 2009, 19:59
No. If anything even resembling a "chainsaw-bayonet" is announced for the game, I'm forget it on the spot.
We already have the blade-arm augmentation, that's enough in my opinion.

a fps player who dizzes a change for a chainsaw? *starts scrible on a note* here a doctors recomendation to go play DOOM with the chainsaw untill you have the healthy idea chainsaws are awsome.

Mindmute
1st Mar 2009, 20:09
a fps player who dizzes a change for a chainsaw? *starts scrible on a note* here a doctors recomendation to go play DOOM with the chainsaw untill you have the healthy idea chainsaws are awsome.

I don't play Doom, I enjoy a good storyline in a game.

I'm not going to make long discussion out of this, but if you play games to have chainsaws growing out of your elbows or bazookas sticking out of your nostrils, then DX probably isn't the series for you.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Mar 2009, 20:10
I'm not going to make long discussion out of this, but if you play games to have chainsaws growing out of your elbows or bazookas sticking out of your nostrils, then DX probably isn't the series for you.

Haha, true. :D

remmus
1st Mar 2009, 20:14
I don't play Doom, I enjoy a good storyline in a game.

I'm not going to make long discussion out of this, but if you play games to have chainsaws growing out of your elbows or bazookas sticking out of your nostrils, then DX probably isn't the series for you.

pff please story and weapons are like apples and oranges...I´m a roleplaying and story person just like you (heck are you are true nerd and play pen and paper RPG like me?)....but that doesn´t mean I don´t like pushing a shotgun into a soldier mouth and paint a wall with the color "brain" or pull out a nice chainsaw and go crazy.

Mindmute
1st Mar 2009, 20:21
pff please story and weapons are like apples and oranges...I´m a roleplaying and story person just like you (heck are you are true nerd and play pen and paper RPG like me?)....but that doesn´t mean I don´t like pushing a shotgun into a soldier mouth and paint a wall with the color "brain" or pull out a nice chainsaw and go crazy.

Nah, never really found any appeal to pen and paper or most other forms of roleplay, I just enjoy an immersive story.

I can understand that some people might be into both things, but DX always had an aura of realism.
A big part of what made it's world so good was that it was believable. Even through the crazier parts of it's conspiracy, the game managed to pass itself as true to what could really happen as it needed to.

Adding chainsaws and the like indiscriminately could quickly damage the atmosphere of the game by removing that "believeable" aspect.

remmus
1st Mar 2009, 20:25
Nah, never really found any appeal to pen and paper or most other forms of roleplay, I just enjoy an immersive story.

I can understand that some people might be into both things, but DX always had an aura of realism.
A big part of what made it's world so good was that it was believable. Even through the crazier parts of it's conspiracy, the game managed to pass itself as true to what could really happen as it needed to.

Adding chainsaws and the like indiscriminately would quickly damage the atmosphere of the game by removing that "believeable" aspect.

the fact I could with just a few years of enginnering study and/or just a trip doen to a hardware store and I could make chainsaws damn believeable...and plus it´s a classic case of "you don´t like it, don´t use it".


for me it´s better a game has to many weapons and just let choose withs to use and withs to ignore like the plauge then making me sitt in a corner waiting for a mod or pay for some DLC to get what I want.

Mindmute
1st Mar 2009, 20:32
the fact I could with just a few years of enginnering study and/or just a trip doen to a hardware store and I could make chainsaws damn believeable...and plus it´s a classic case of "you don´t like it, don´t use it".

A chainsaw will never be a believeable weapon in the near future.
It's hard to control, requires a lot of energy to keep it functioning for a meele weapon and the idea of having Adam with modular chainsaws to attach to his arm, suddenly screamed out Inspector Gadget to me.

It might be personal preference, but I don't believe this is the case in our little discussion. There is no way a biotech firm would invest into making a chainsaw attachment augmentation when better alternatives exist.


Want to agree that we disagree and be happy with it on this point? ;)

remmus
1st Mar 2009, 20:37
A chainsaw will never be a believeable weapon in the near future.
It's hard to control, requires a lot of energy to keep it functioning for a meele weapon and the idea of having Adam with modular chainsaws to attach to his arm, suddenly screamed out Inspector Gadget to me.

It might be personal preference, but I don't believe so, there is no way a biotech firm would invest into making a chainsaw attachment augmentation when better alternatives exist.

hehe not strange you haven´t played pen and paper rpg...GM would think your so boring :P

it´s sci-fi for crying out loud..."believeable" plays second fiddle....or it might aswell be another Rainbow Six.

Mindmute
1st Mar 2009, 20:42
it´s sci-fi for crying out loud..."believeable" plays second fiddle....or it might aswell be another Rainbow Six.


Being belieavable should never be a secondary priority in a cyber-punk game that has immersion as it's main focus.
Too many sci-fi elements is for many DX fans a part of the reason why DX:IW flopped.

We're not going anywhere with this discussion, so I'll cutting myself out of it, right here.

Blade_hunter
1st Mar 2009, 21:12
Depends many players seems to loved the first DX because it was believable in some facts even on the weaponry, the crowbar is a pure example of an everyday weapon
Not a true weapon but it was one in the game. It's like we doesn't add some food and some drinks the game got those things, it kept some realism and a futuristic feel, many futuristic universes uses some real things to make it futuristic and not fantastic. Just saying

WhatsHisFace
1st Mar 2009, 22:44
Many people also loved the first Deus Ex because you only had to use weapons rarely, if ever.

auric
1st Mar 2009, 23:07
a whole freaking pile of melee weapons: seriusly a nice game mechanic that alow you to convert anything from a bottle of booze to a office chair into a viable weapon.

Ahh, that reminds me of 2 other games.

Splinter Cell: Conviction (Chairs / other furnitures & boxes)
Fallout 1, 2 & Tactics (Booze bottles, pipes, bat, crowbar, knives, swords, batons, chainsaw, wrench, etc.)

remmus
1st Mar 2009, 23:24
I just hope Adam holds his pistol properly. I'm tired of seeing characters, who are supposed to know what they're doing, holding it with one had while the other arm is apparently strapped to their side.

agree fullheartly....but I still wanna see silly hollywood dual wielding pistols aswell :)

spm1138
2nd Mar 2009, 00:14
Hnngh.

No.

Just... no.

WhatsHisFace
2nd Mar 2009, 00:17
Do you think it's possible for Eidos Montreal make Adam scream while he shoots? I really like movies where the hero screams while he shoots.

FrankCSIS
2nd Mar 2009, 00:29
Don't forget a catchphrase or something insightful after the kill is done.

spm1138
2nd Mar 2009, 01:37
[Ah-nold]"You're obsolete!"[/Ah-nold]

... No.

auric
2nd Mar 2009, 02:10
No screaming please, at least not in the campaign.
Feel free to scream in the death matches.

Not everyone like that kind of style, however if firing continuously an automatic weapon maybe make some sound of trying to hold the gun still against the long recoil.

Out of breath sound after firing would be fine.

But it is not necessary.
:)

Romeo
2nd Mar 2009, 05:40
No screaming please, at least not in the campaign.
Feel free to scream in the death matches.

Not everyone like that kind of style, however if firing continuously an automatic weapon maybe make some sound of trying to hold the gun still against the long recoil.

Out of breath sound after firing would be fine.

But it is not necessary.
:)
There's a high chance that the game will only be a single player game. lol

And screaming can be done right, or can end up going horribly, horribly wrong. I personally hope Adam does make some audible cues to let you know he's getting shot, such as grunts, moans and screams.

auric
2nd Mar 2009, 06:47
I hope so, about the Campaign only.
That way they "supposedly" shouldn't worry making extra programing which may clash with the campaign for the multi mode.

But from what I heard of things, they still seem to plan to make some of the same mistakes.
But another good thing is that they are making the game for PC first & not Consoles.

The opposite will cause lots of problems for pc like it did in DX:IW
:)

Jerion
2nd Mar 2009, 08:02
There's a high chance that the game will only be a single player game. lol

And screaming can be done right, or can end up going horribly, horribly wrong. I personally hope Adam does make some audible cues to let you know he's getting shot, such as grunts, moans and screams.

^^ If it's done well, I hope they carry over this one thing from Mirror's Edge: The "Crumble and exhale" you hear when you fall from a rooftop and hit the pavement below. It's genius.

remmus
2nd Mar 2009, 08:09
Hnngh.

No.

Just... no.

why not...if anything dual pistols falls under "don´t like it, don´t use it"

auric
2nd Mar 2009, 08:12
why not...if anything dual pistols falls under "don´t like it, don´t use it"

Only if the player got augmented hands.
:)

Spyhopping
2nd Mar 2009, 08:54
^^ If it's done well, I hope they carry over this one thing from Mirror's Edge: The "Crumble and exhale" you hear when you fall from a rooftop and hit the pavement below. It's genius.

Hehe more like "Squelch-crunch and exhale" ;)

spm1138
2nd Mar 2009, 09:29
why not...if anything dual pistols falls under "don´t like it, don´t use it"

Because it looks stupid. So very stupid.

Just the sight or mention of "Akimbo" pistols makes me irritable.

remmus
2nd Mar 2009, 10:49
Because it looks stupid. So very stupid.

Just the sight or mention of "Akimbo" pistols makes me irritable.

*sights and starts carve "don´t like it, don´t use it" on a sledgehammer* you have a hard time hearing the whole message it seams...lets me help you *raises the sledgehammer ready to swing*

Blade_hunter
2nd Mar 2009, 12:25
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6915/dualwield.jpg (http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dualwield.jpg)

:whistle:

spm1138
2nd Mar 2009, 16:36
How do you aim? :nut:

Jerion
2nd Mar 2009, 17:04
You don't. :lol: Just hold 'em out front and center, and fire away!

Blade_hunter
2nd Mar 2009, 21:34
Without screaming ;) just leave the powder do that for you :rasp:

G-Machine
6th Mar 2009, 13:44
Does anyone remember the part in Mission Impossible 3 when Cruise's lady gets kidnapped? The guy simply puts a small round piece of poisonous paper on her arm and she's rendered unconscious. I think that would be a cool secret agent biotechy thing to have in Dues Ex which is an alternative to knocking someone on the head, and would only work on non-biomechanical characters. Or you could have some kind of bug that could be slapped on the side of a robot to temporarily disable it.

Blade_hunter
6th Mar 2009, 20:34
You can use something to put in enemy's mouth like chloroform or a product of that kind, but we need to hold our enemy during some seconds for the product take effect, or even use a syringe just take some from the free clinic :D

auric
6th Mar 2009, 20:42
You can use something to put in enemy's mouth like chloroform or a product of that kind, but we need to hold our enemy during some seconds for the product take effect, or even use a syringe just take some from the free clinic :D

Chloroform (The only image i can find that look like him using chloroform)
http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/5462/2h/images.gamezone.com/screens/25/1/23/s25123_pc_78.jpg

Syringe
http://www.ioi.dk/images/hitman-with-syringe.jpg

WhatsHisFace
6th Mar 2009, 21:00
You should be able to put Zyme in a syringe and just go on a stabbing spree to drug everyone up.

GOTY guaranteed.

Ashpolt
6th Mar 2009, 21:19
I like the idea of chloroform, it was something I really thought of when replaying the original recently, it'd definitely add a nice extra element for the stealthy player.

Slap-on bot disablers...my initial feeling is that they'd make the game too easy, but no easier than bot domination, I guess.

G-Machine
6th Mar 2009, 22:25
Or maybe the bot bug thing could just cause the bot to be disabled for a couple of seconds or so, just enuff time to disable it and get past a door or something. I like the zyme overdose idea that sounds cool, I reckon more wepons should be created by improvising with things from the environment. It would further reinforce the impression that Adam has a background in a shady security company.

Blade_hunter
6th Mar 2009, 22:30
Just find an Aerosol and a zippo and you got a flamethrower and make molotov cocktails with your empty beer bottles :D

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aIh0tv3xs3xF/610x.jpg

Now we know Blade_hunter is a psycho :lol:

El_Bel
6th Mar 2009, 22:45
Hey we need people like you in Greece. When you hear about riots, come!! We will put you in good use.

auric
7th Mar 2009, 00:35
Known Game: Knock Out methods
http://www.geocities.com/auric180/KO.jpg

René
7th Mar 2009, 00:57
Just find an Aerosol and a zippo and you got a flamethrower and make molotov cocktails with your empty beer bottles :D

*cough*aloneinthedarkfive (http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2008/059/930280_20070228_screen003.jpg)*cough* ;)

Blade_hunter
7th Mar 2009, 02:46
I think the junkies in the game could use that kind of weapons :)

FrankCSIS
7th Mar 2009, 02:53
*cough*aloneinthedarkfive (http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2008/059/930280_20070228_screen003.jpg)*cough* ;)

Police Quest 4 has you killing the crazy murdering lady with her own spray net found in her bathroom, and her zippo. Such a strange and unexpected ending, that game was.

gamer0004
7th Mar 2009, 07:23
Melee omcbat should definately be improved. That was one of the few flaws of DX: no hand-to-hand combat.

SemiAnonymous
7th Mar 2009, 07:32
I know its been said before, but realizing that you can't have a dramatic sword fight against Maggie Chow (imagine, you just entered the code, 525 iirc, and you begin to duel her to the death, metal parts flying around, two spider bots fast approaching. Not very Deus Ex-esque, but that would have been great), rather, you can just slap her once with the DTS and its over was very saddening to me.

So improved combat would be greatly enjoyed. Even if its as simple as adding parrying and more than two attack animations, anything would be nice.

Romeo
7th Mar 2009, 07:55
I know its been said before, but realizing that you can't have a dramatic sword fight against Maggie Chow (imagine, you just entered the code, 525 iirc, and you begin to duel her to the death, metal parts flying around, two spider bots fast approaching. Not very Deus Ex-esque, but that would have been great), rather, you can just slap her once with the DTS and its over was very saddening to me.

So improved combat would be greatly enjoyed. Even if its as simple as adding parrying and more than two attack animations, anything would be nice.
Yes, while the combat from Deus Ex was decent for it's time, I really hope it gets a massive overhaul in Deus Ex 3. I'm not saying I need to have 999 execution moves, a la Assassin's Creed, but something different than a back and forth exchange of sword slashes would be kinda nice.

K^2
7th Mar 2009, 08:01
I've never seen a game with sword combat that would feel satisfying. I used to fence a bit back in the day, and none of the fencing mechanic is ever translated into the game. You feel like it doesn't matter if you are fighting with a sword, a heavy pipe, or just fists. Yeah, animations and damage are perhaps different, but the dynamic is the same. You don't actually have control of the sword, nor does motion of the sword have anything to do with odds of hitting or inflicting damage.

I don't care if melee combat makes it into the game, just as long as I don't have to use it.

auric
7th Mar 2009, 08:19
Well Star Wars had some good Saber duels, just that it changes to 3rd person view for a while.

Well iirc Jedi Knight II had saber duels in 1st person view & still got saber locks, as in clashes of swords.

Blade_hunter
7th Mar 2009, 08:40
For me the melee combat in Deus Ex should be improved, Yes and some "special" moves / tricks should be added, the action button combined with one of our weapons/hands can be used to make the special move regarding where we aim.
some ideas are around the forum and some of them are cool IMO

Jerion
7th Mar 2009, 08:46
I think some of the lightsaber fighting stuff from Jedi Academy would work pretty well for dueling with swords and pipe-like blunt objects. Some of the unarmed combat stuff in Mirror's Edge (disarming) might be kinda fun to see too.

Blade_hunter
7th Mar 2009, 08:53
Yep and fits perfectly with the spirit of the game if we want to do no kill we should be able to do that without weapons

FrankCSIS
7th Mar 2009, 16:43
Not that I care to have this in Deus Ex, but since we're discussing hand to hand and melee, it would be nice to have the notion of varying martial arts implanted, and not just in a fighting game. It could be a fun feature with certain consequences to have different stances, attacks and counter-attacks, as well as varying manipulation of staff/sword/knife depending on the art you've chosen to develop throughout the game.

AaronJ
7th Mar 2009, 17:48
I'm fine with hand-to-hand combat as long as the aug related to it is Strength Enhancement, not "Spin Kick".

Blade_hunter
7th Mar 2009, 21:08
Since the beginning of that thread I wanted something that fits with the game infiltration weapons and brute force ones with the guys in between without to be ultimate weapons to make the infiltration useless or poor weapons to force the infiltration.

The biomods should complete the weapons

since they aren't ultimate at all, the balance is kept.

auric
7th Mar 2009, 22:53
Not that I care to have this in Deus Ex, but since we're discussing hand to hand and melee, it would be nice to have the notion of varying martial arts implanted, and not just in a fighting game. It could be a fun feature with certain consequences to have different stances, attacks and counter-attacks, as well as varying manipulation of staff/sword/knife depending on the art you've chosen to develop throughout the game.

That would only be possible if the game can switch to 3rd person view.

Can't imagine it being in 1st person view, it will look like merely strafing (moving left right foward backward jump crouch) with no action to be seen.
:D

Blade_hunter
8th Mar 2009, 01:00
Me I can the body awareness can help much ....

FrankCSIS
8th Mar 2009, 01:04
Well yeah I imagine 3rd person would be necessary to take fully advantage of it. Depending on the nature of the game, this perspective can be perfectly acceptable.

Ashpolt
8th Mar 2009, 02:28
That would only be possible if the game can switch to 3rd person view.

Can't imagine it being in 1st person view, it will look like merely strafing (moving left right foward backward jump crouch) with no action to be seen.
:D

You've obviously never played Mirror's Edge or Chronicles of "Vin Diesel character name which gets picked up by the swear filter so I can't say it here." Both do hand to hand combat in first person exceptionally well (though the former had serious other problems that made the game as a whole not that great...such as too much focus on combat, hint hint.)

spm1138
8th Mar 2009, 13:42
The H2H in DX1 was as with everything else limited by the engine.

Skies the limit with the new engine.

Personally I'd like to see a range of effective lethal and nonlethal options.

I really liked how Splinter Cell had it by the third game.

OFC with you being a combat cyborg that does open up some new options.

A robocop style "grab em through the wall" as already mooted would be fun but I'm sure there's more they could do.

H2H augs would be interesting. Maybe you could have skillwires a la Shadowrun or something to guarantee a non-lethal knockout when hitting somebody. Stuff like that.

Blade_hunter
8th Mar 2009, 14:07
The engine limited nothing about that they just wanted to have a basical though, the unreal engine 1 have more power than you expect.

If you want I can proof what I say if you don't believe me ;)

Many limitations about the game were more to fit with slower computers than the engine itself
Deus Ex when it was released got some difficulties to run in some descent computers in D3D (600 Mhz for example in the 2000's)

spm1138
8th Mar 2009, 15:12
One of my favourite mods ever, Infiltration, was still being developed for UT99 in 2003 I think. Fans were still developing for it in 2006. I think they've done stuff with it even Epic didn't pull off.

Still the animation system doesn't seem to make convincing hand to hand a possibility.

Blade_hunter
8th Mar 2009, 15:38
The animation of deus ex weren't good at all but the computer limitations has much relations with that. ;)
The game got a lot of possibilities to work with a 300Mhz PC and now many games didn't have much possibilities and they require a 3ghz just for shiny graphics and physics with classical gameplays with only 2 - 3 goodies and new visual effects.

I am with melee combats, with ranged combats, projectile delay (more challenge in sniping :) ), and have a good variety of knocking / fighting weapons

Snake04
10th Mar 2009, 22:21
Since i am new to this post let me type what weapons must be in the game.1)hand to hand combat.2)M4 gun.3)wp rocket.4)SMG.5)A wi-fi hacker.

IOOI
18th Mar 2009, 00:30
I have a suggestion for a hand-to-hand fighting system, conceived to do simple combo moves, grab and project oponnents knocking down other NPC's or destructing the environment (some broken windows). Imagine you enter in "Combat mode" and depending of the proximity of your opponent and the part of the body you are aiming at, you could run and perform a jump kick that would make him fly until he hits the wall or you could do a sneak approach and grab is neck till he suffocates or brake it (auchhh).

An example for the "Combat Mode" moves:

-Forward = W
-Backward = S
-Run = shift
-Jump = space
-punch = primary fire
-kick = secondary fire
-grab = action/pick up
-block = primary fire + secondary fire

-smash (with both hands) = hold punch and release
-strong kick = hold kick and release
-push = aim to the chest + punch
-frontal kick = aim to the chest + kick
-suffocate (from behind or upfront) = aim at neck + grab
-grab and project = aim at sholder/groin/neck + grab then backward + punch
-Jump kick = run, jump, kick
-Jump punch = run, jump, punch
-double-leg kick = hold kick, run, jump, release
-double-punch = hold punch, run, jump, release
-block or defense would do some damage to the arms/augs and lead to regenerate/fix/replace them (i see some sparkles in broken arms).

For different types of punches/kicks or simple combos you just have to click punch or kick several times. The type of NPC is important for the effectiveness of the move. For instance a kick to the groin = TKO, but if the NPC is a full-augmented cyborg with "dispensable" parts removed he will laugh in you're face... Other example a double-leg kick aimed at the back of an human NPC should be an instant killer (breaking is neck, auchhh 2).

The strenght/speed/variety of moves could be improved, depending on better augs or practice/experience. A fight between human NPC/player and a augmented NPC/player should bear in mind the augs/experience level of both - i.e: a player with combat level 3 vs. a NPC combat level 5 have more chances to take a victory than a player with combat level 2 (20% possibility of wining). Remember that some things like melee combat and picking up objects/corpses were already in DX1 this is only an idea to improve it (if they have the time to implement it well - with great 1st person animations).
If there is any other game that can use hand-to-hand fighting moves in a 1st person view for the PC (besides Mirrors Edge) let me know (really).

Omar Protector
18th Mar 2009, 00:51
I hope they have some cool weapons that relate to your augs like a hidden knife like in the picture or that gun arm:D

Fig89
18th Mar 2009, 16:07
If this ends up being a button mashing game like street fighter or something, I'm blaming all of you. Why not use something closer to a first person adaptation of splinter cell's combat?

GmanPro
18th Mar 2009, 16:44
I personally do NOT want to play Dead or Alive when I'm trying to play Deus Ex 3. Chronicles of Rid****: Escape from Butcher bay style maybe, but all I'm thinking DX3 could use is a way to break peoples necks when you sneak up behind them, that sort of thing.

Blade_hunter
18th Mar 2009, 17:53
Eh for me the "special" attack must be something not too impressive or too close to the combat game genre.
For me the kick must be something always usable.
Some moves are made to neutralize our enemy and even grab some informations, but I got an other thing with the grab button that sounds better and more fitted to the game.
The action button near an enemy allow us to pick items without the need to knock / kill them, but we need to be cautious.

IOOI
18th Mar 2009, 18:52
Ok, ok. I let myself get carried away. But most of you consider the grab button a good idea for grabbing and breaking some necks.:thumb:
As for retrieving information it could be better used while you're in conversation with a character. If body language is important you could use it to twist an arm or grab the neck to make people talk or even to comfort (i'm pushing it again, i know). For example in DX1 while in dialog the emphasis was entirely on voice there were no body movements, no threatening pose. People would only run or duck after you finish the conversation. I'm proposing this to happen while you're in dialog.

Blade_hunter
18th Mar 2009, 19:07
Eh I talk about grab informations from enemies not friendly NPCs, for enemies you need to catch them and threaten them

Capital_G
18th Mar 2009, 19:12
We must be able to kick people Duke Nukem style :cool:

like a ''big boot'' in the face of some child haha



http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper689/stills/k4xbtv4h.jpg

IOOI
18th Mar 2009, 20:01
@ Blade_hunter

I'm not saying either that you should be violent with everyone, but during a dialog the character ask you to do some task. If you notice that body language suggests is
not friendly or trustworthy then you should have the options to be neutral (talking about something else), agree, refuse or force the conversation (going straight to
the matter - i.e:"who do you working for?" type of questions) - like in DX1.

@ Capital_G

You refreshed my memory.
Well in DEUS EX 3 - THE MODERATOR FAQ's THREAD they only refer using the punch "to breach walls and open up new paths in a level or find bonuses", but i would love to at least punch a bad fella and grab him.

Blade_hunter
18th Mar 2009, 20:11
it's not that I suggest but how you can grab informations from enemies ?
You can't if you don't threat them by neutralizing them first, for the friendly ones it's a normal conversation is sufficient.

IOOI
18th Mar 2009, 21:19
it's not that I suggest but how you can grab informations from enemies ?
You can't if you don't threat them by neutralizing them first, for the friendly ones it's a normal conversation is sufficient.

Maybe when you approach the NPC you should be able to choose to knock him or threat him for info (choosing different keyboard buttons, not with the mouse cause that would kill the thrill).
In a scripted dialog/conversation threatening should be possible too, accordingly with i stated before.

@Fig89 and GmanPro
Thank you for the references. I've seen some videos now and yes that type of approach would be good. It would be even better if you could choose between 1st or 3rd view.

Blade_hunter
18th Mar 2009, 22:01
My suggestion is basically to add methods that allow a pacifist, the guy in between and a terminator to enjoy the game. I suggest that since the beginning
The pacifist by doing the less amount of violence
The guy in between depending what he thinks (kill, not kill, knock)
and The terminator by shooting first and talk after.

Just like the first deus ex did, we aren't forced to kill or knock, it's a moral choice.
for me unarmed combat is a true enhancement to the game, and allow more melee combat possibilities is a great enhancement, some things are "hitmanish" but it fits perfectly with deus ex.

The weaponry must correspond with what the game wants of you, deus ex is a game that give freedom

that would mean we got a great range in matter of choice

weapons designed to kill and destroy
weapons designed for a large amount of tactics, the shotguns and the grenade launchers are the weapons that allow a great bunch of tactics in ralation of the loaded ammo
weapons for peace keeping law enforcement (neutralize without casualties) the unarmed combat is a part of it

I think our weaponry must fit with what kind of player we are
stealth / combatant
pacifist / warrior

And the interaction with our enemies are a point I want to put in front, because less interactivity would mean less choices.

IOOI
18th Mar 2009, 22:42
^
You are as impacient as i right now, but i ear you. And yes, when you approach the NPC we should be able to knock or kill (or not to kill?) depending of the weapon you have at the moment (hand, stun prod, knife...).

Blade_hunter
18th Mar 2009, 22:51
Yes exactly :thumb:

IOOI
28th May 2009, 21:47
I don't know if anyone has suggested this, but it would be good to have a weapon or to upgrade a weapon so it's possible to shoot accuratly while in cover.
See the CornerShot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CornerShot) for example.
Imagine that you can upgrade your weapon with a camera that: a) can be pluged in to your brain; b) has a LCD display. That way you can always see the enemy while in cover, but within a narrow field of view.
This narrow field of view should work well in a 1st/3rd person view - bluring or "blackening" the edges.:)

PS: I've already posted the idea in another thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1007173&posted=1#post1007173). I've "re-posted" just to stay on-topic.

Jerion
28th May 2009, 23:28
That would be an interesting tie-in between an aug and a weapon upgrade. :cool:

KSingh77
4th Jun 2009, 23:55
Needs some Seburo weapons,also the corner shot is cool.

serrath
5th Jun 2009, 06:06
I want some genuine disabling weapons. Flashbang grenades, tranq darts, rubber bullets, net-gun, the sonic weapon thing from Ironman, tribbles to incapacitate their starships, the gay bomb, that sorta thing.

Okay but seriously, lots of "good-guy" weapons. Hell, rubber-bullets work on mall cops (try it if you don't believe me).


Okay, so this is DEFINITELY the wrong game for it, but has anyone seen The World's Most Interesting Bomb from MDK?

Jerion
5th Jun 2009, 06:45
I want some genuine disabling weapons. Flashbang grenades, tranq darts, rubber bullets, net-gun, the sonic weapon thing from Ironman, tribbles to incapacitate their starships, the gay bomb, that sorta thing.

Okay but seriously, lots of "good-guy" weapons. Hell, rubber-bullets work on mall cops (try it if you don't believe me).


Okay, so this is DEFINITELY the wrong game for it, but has anyone seen The World's Most Interesting Bomb from MDK?

Oi, I remember that in MDK. That was a long time ago! :nut:

Blade_hunter
5th Jun 2009, 15:48
Don't worry I suggested some weapons like that ;)
but what's the gay bomb and tribbles ?
Sorry but I'm a foreigner ...

I think and I'm pretty certain there is a flash grenade in the game, but I think and perhaps some persons would say 5 grenades are enough, but I don't think that.


HE grenade
Tear gas grenade
Flash grenade
EMP grenade
Scramble grenade

New weapons
Fragmentation grenade
Incendiary grenade (a very good anti infantry grenade)
Smoke grenade
Concussion grenade (a weak HE grenade)
WP grenade
Knockout grenade
Nail grenade (a grenade that throws high velocity nails without explosion)
Dummy grenade (good to force enemies to move away without causing damages)

"Improvised" devices (some of them aren't really improvised)
Oil bottle (good for creating oil flasks)
Molotov cocktail
Letter bomb (can be fitted with stun munitions)
TNT baton (we have TNT crates after all ...)
C4 explosive
Caltrops
Tripwire (good for making traps or activate explosives from a safe distance)

Blade_hunter
16th Aug 2009, 00:23
Again some additional videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0k69cHjOf8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCAiQyuWfOk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOm3dfYYNeI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU9g3jdIpu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU4h-t0E9y4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qX0NmMz4c0
I think that's all even if some cids contains some funny parts I think the wide variety of weapons ads much for the gameplay of Deus Ex I mean all weapons have their uses and purposes ...

Ninjerk
16th Aug 2009, 15:29
Tribbles are little furry things from the original Star Trek series. I don't remember how they got one on the Enterprise, but once they did the entire ship filled up with them because they replicated so fast. I believe the episode was called "The Trouble with Tribbles."

Blade_hunter
17th Aug 2009, 00:04
Ok thanks, I know why he talked about them, they have a tranquilizer effect second what I read in some articles about them.
But the Gay bomb ? is it to turn people gay or is it for a serious purpose ?

Jerion
17th Aug 2009, 00:20
Ok thanks, I know why he talked about them, they have a tranquilizer effect second what I read in some articles about them.
But the Gay bomb ? is it to turn people gay or is it for a serious purpose ?

Such a device could potentially offend a great many conservative players- although, if it results in Freddy Mercury and Queen showing up and playing a live gig, nobody, anywhere, will ever have a problem with it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
17th Aug 2009, 01:58
^
Seconded. :thumb:

Irate_Iguana
17th Aug 2009, 06:47
But the Gay bomb ? is it to turn people gay or is it for a serious purpose ?

Yes, it was meant to turn soldiers of the enemy gay. The idea being that if the soldiers were to busy sexing each other up they couldn't attack your soldiers.

Blade_hunter
17th Aug 2009, 08:52
Hey I didn't say I want tribbles and gay bombs this is the kind of the thing for an Austin Powers game ...

PenguinsFriend
17th Aug 2009, 17:58
What about, and I'm just gonna throw this out there, electric nipples? Adam could get mechanical electric nipples that shoot out like some sort of tazer...

What you all think?

Jerion
17th Aug 2009, 18:11
What about, and I'm just gonna throw this out there, electric nipples? Adam could get mechanical electric nipples that shoot out like some sort of tazer...

What you all think?

Uhm, no. What have you been smoking?

PenguinsFriend
17th Aug 2009, 19:47
Uhm, no. What have you been smoking?

Nothing man, I just want to hear Adam say, "My nipples have ben augmented" LMAO!

Hertzila
17th Aug 2009, 20:21
Riiiiiiight...

Anyway I admit a hidden weapon, be it a blade or firearm, as an augmentation would be nice.
And a smoke grenade is a must. If it is a LOS based stealth system, I demand an easily deployable cover.

SageSavage
30th Aug 2009, 21:16
I like this design (although EM's sniper rifle looks excellent):

http://www.whitewolfairsmithing.com/images/Tiberius/Tiberius-T9-Elite.jpg

It's a just a soft air 'toy' but a nice one at that. Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rnA6L8aqIY)

Blade_hunter
31st Aug 2009, 00:44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTHazFZil1A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuXR0F6ZQzc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQHai-MkDkM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qftOWHXEbr4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD80E6p_wQA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8d3_evYbww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGgaQ07D09Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G9Pd52Dp-M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKMo537wFhw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04X1L2jYspM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnF74snKp94
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RLIJjNHir8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWQ5Pbuys2I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVYWMESM0-A

I think also deus ex should have
A baseball bat
Pipes (wooden, metal, even plastic), something that can be found anywhere on a street, used by junkies too
A screw driver
An hammer
A spanner
Bottles as weapons
Saw disks used as a melee weapon or a thrown one
A chain
gloves of all sorts
a brass knuckle

Arach666
31st Aug 2009, 15:24
Hope they put throwing knifes on...very useful although nobody likes them

brass knuckle all the way!:rasp:

Blade_hunter
31st Aug 2009, 16:33
why not ;) I think people would like a ballistic knife :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_knife
http://www.islandcrisis.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/ballistic_knife-01.jpg
Mouhouhaha deadly and stealthy, not as normal throwing knife but not very noisy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrlzBj2lIJg

spm1138
31st Aug 2009, 17:23
Sock full of pennies.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3645/3490637896_cae0bccebc.jpg

PlasmaSnake101
31st Aug 2009, 17:29
Yes, it was meant to turn soldiers of the enemy gay. The idea being that if the soldiers were to busy sexing each other up they couldn't attack your soldiers.

Gay or not, that would be interesting to see. Page and Manderly. Oh man, I made myself throw up a little.

A butterfly knife.

Deus Ex doesn't seem like a game where you would beat someone to death with a bat.

Arach666
31st Aug 2009, 18:39
ballistic knife...sounds good to me...


You mean the kind of knife olga had in MGS2?

spm1138
31st Aug 2009, 18:42
Nah that was a knife with a derringer built in.

Blade_hunter
31st Aug 2009, 19:10
A knife that launches its blade, not a knife with a built-in gun
watch the video ;)

Arach666
1st Sep 2009, 01:23
I see...very nice:thumb:

Blade_hunter
1st Sep 2009, 01:51
Hehe, I'm glad it please you ;)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Switchblade_animated.gif
An other knife is a switchblade nothing special except the style even if the animated image doesn't use the prettiest model, the following photo could sound much better
http://www.darrelralph.com/assets/knives/tact-util-fold/gibbs/fldag.jpg

Blade_hunter
5th Nov 2009, 16:35
http://www.telinject.co.za/images/rifle01.jpg
http://www.telinject.co.za/images/rifles_large_01.jpg
http://www.wholesalegoods.net/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/2050.jpg

Traquilizer rifles and pistols !!

KSingh77
5th Nov 2009, 16:51
I hope hand to hand combat and stealth take downs come into play.

Cmd_lupin
5th Nov 2009, 19:26
Is there any type of compound crossbow/bow (mini-crossbow might be pushing it in 2027) in Deus eX 3?
If there this has already been posted, my apologies.

Blade_hunter
5th Nov 2009, 20:31
post 1

post 2

Check those posts if you want, just click on the arrows ;)

Cmd_lupin
5th Nov 2009, 20:39
Check those posts if you want, just click on the arrows ;)

The mini crossbow you pictured in your post (2), is quite a feasable model for Deus eX 3, as is the rest of it.

13LACK13ISHOP
5th Nov 2009, 21:54
Gatling gun
Fashbangs
Smoke grenades
Tear gas grenades
Light MG
Heavy MG
Maybe a medium MG
Double barrel sawn of
Pump action with 8 rounds
Semi auto with drum magazine
Subby similar to p90
Crossbow
Flamethrower
Throwing knives
Tazer
Lead pipe
Chainsaw
Crowbar
Pipe wrench
Fire axe
Ice pick
Katana
Kitchin knife
Combat knife
Machete
Baseball bat
Expandable baton
Pepper spray
Sledge hammer
Steel wire/fibre wire
Chair
Fire extinguisher
Jack hammer
Bricks
Mini uzi
Revolver
Semi auto high capacity
Semi auto high power
Semi auto balanced
Assault rifle
Sniper
GEP gun
Frags
Molotovs


Melee weapons should differ in many ways and examples include attack speed, damage, range, concussion effects, blood loss effects, stealth damage bonus, weight ect. Being able to smash windows effectively differ and some weapons you cannot take hostages with. Some are one handed and some are two.

Blade_hunter
6th Nov 2009, 00:07
Good weapons there ;)
Nothing forbids to have different variants of a similar weapon, I will mention for example assault rifles, pistols and such
They have different stats and that's even what STALKER did well, DX 1 did also that even if it was at a lower scale.
We had two pistols, two swords, two shotguns, two rocket launchers, two batons ...

There is stats but there is also functions like a scope, laser sights, additional launchers, silencers, etc ....

Stats and functions for weapons this is pretty much what FPS and RPGs does

dragons_tongue
12th Nov 2009, 12:21
in the DX3 FAQ, did they mean by weapon stats not affecting your weapon usage(that it depends on how well you aim and shoot), that there is no longer a pistol, riflle etc skill tree? Until I read the FAQ, I was under the impression that jensen was a proto prototype nano aug agent whose genetic data would be the basis for dentons' creation. The concept art is very similar to ghost in the shell.

13LACK13ISHOP: you missed the cattle/riot prod. Cant play without it.....atleast until the point where youre sure who the real baddies are...then you can whip out your silenced assault rifle.....

From the DX3 faq, there apparently is a concealed weapon aug......some half knife or large flat screwdriver head like weapon coming out of the forearms.

More than weapons, melee combat should be physics based and have some CQC elements other than various ways of stabbing....like holds, throws, chokes and running smashes and 'goldberg spears' and to push enemies off the ledge if youre fighting on a balcony or terrace and use them as body shields until they get punctured good and throw the useless body at the opponents with the arm strength aug and jump off the ledge and land 10 stories below safe and sound with help of the legs aug.

K^2
12th Nov 2009, 16:33
Erm... Bishop, do you know what a Heavy MG is? I don't care if Adam is augmented, he can't fire an HMG from hands. It is a weapon designed to be fired exclusively from mounted positions. Even an MMG can't typically be fired from hand. SAW LMGs are the only class designed for this purpose.

Blade_hunter
12th Nov 2009, 18:11
Look at this :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91TcJ5iTNe8

spm1138
13th Nov 2009, 12:35
M1919A4 wasn't a HMG. There was even a LMG version of the M1919 (the A6) although it wasn't massively "light" as MGs go.

Personally I think for the game I am hoping for if you NEED a .50 cal MG at any point you're probably doing something entirely wrong :D

auric
13th Nov 2009, 20:19
Playing SWAT 4,
I love their "Less then Lethal" methods.

Gas, Shout to surrender
Tazer
Bean Bags

It'll be a nice addition.

Blown door can knock out people behind the door.

In Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, banging through a door can also Knockout a person behind it.

minus0ne
13th Nov 2009, 21:50
I do hope DX3 won't have the Splinter Cell "sticky shocker" (or "Taser XREP"), that would just make the game too easy (even if ammo is very rare). I prefer the riot prod :p

auric
13th Nov 2009, 22:24
That's why I prefer the tazer in SWAT, have to reload every 1 or 2 shots & limited distance.
;)

Blade_hunter
13th Nov 2009, 23:53
Well I didn't say anything about the weapon class, but the weapon is closer to an Heavy MG rather than a light, it's too heavy and heavier than most medium MGs since it's close to the heaviest on the same weapon class in therms of weight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_machine_gun
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg59-e.htm
Just read those articles to see the fact that weapons like the M1917, M1919 MGs were called "Heavy" before being called medium.
It's a medium MG and I won't tell the contrary and I didn't say anything about that, but it's an heavy weapon with a weight and bulkiness close to the 50 caliber heavy MGs

At least I don't see why a tazer projectile would make the game too easy, the weapon only affect one person, it doesn't have too much range and makes noise since the projectile needs gunpowder to be propelled, the prod is more silent than that and fitted for stealth players.
I have that as a taser style weapon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuXR0F6ZQzc
Now if players doesn't want to play with that kind of weapons just skip'em, the XREP isn't intended to be a weapon for stealth players, it's much more for the persons in between

auric
13th Nov 2009, 23:56
It'll be nice if certain weapons require certain Augs.

like strength Aug to help use bigger weapons. Forcing the player to deform him/her self to use something.

Price to pay for bigger toys.

Ninjerk
14th Nov 2009, 16:47
Playing SWAT 4,
I love their "Less then Lethal" methods.

Gas, Shout to surrender
Tazer
Bean Bags

It'll be a nice addition.

Blown door can knock out people behind the door.

In Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, banging through a door can also Knockout a person behind it.

I'd like to see some variety in the shotgun ammo choices (esp. bean bag rounds) and the ability to select the order in which they're loaded.

auric
14th Nov 2009, 21:35
What do u mean by the order they're loaded?

different ammo per load?
8 shells, 4 bean bag, 4 regular shells?

Blade_hunter
15th Nov 2009, 00:32
In therms of weapon's ammo I think the following are good to use

For 12 gauge shotguns
1/ Buckshot shells
2/ Slugs
3/ Bolo rounds
4/ Sabot shells
5/ Explosive shells
6/ Electric stun shells
7/ Rubber shells
8/ Tear gas shells
9/ EMP shells (works only against little stuff)
10/ Breaching rounds

For 40 mm grenade launchers
1/ Buckshot
2/ WP grenades
3/ Fragmentation
4/ HE
5/ HEDP
6/ EMP
7/ Tear gas
8/ Sponge round
9/ Flashbang
10/ Sting grenades
11/ Smoke
12/ Sticky camera

For Rocket launchers / RPGs
1/ HEAT
2/ EMP
3/ Explosive
4/ HE
5/ Delayed detonation
6/ Incendiary
7/ Fragmentation

For Missile launchers
1/ HEAT
2/ Blast fragmentation

5.7 mm ammo pistals and PDWs
1/ 5.7 ammo

9mm pistols and SMGs
1/ 9mm
2/ 9mm +P+
3/ 9mm glass destabilizing
4/ 9mm FMJ
5/ 9mm rubber bullet

.357 magnum ammo for revolvers
1/ .357 magnum
2/ .38 special

.45 pistols and SMGs
1/ .45 ACP
2/ .45 Hydrashok rounds
3/ .45 ACP +P

.50 AE hand guns
1/ .50 AE

.45 Colt revolver / derringer
1/ .45 Colt
2/ .410 shotshell
3/ .454 Casul

5.56x45 ammo weapons
1/ 5.56
2/ 5.56 AP

7.62x51 ammo weapons
1/ 7.62
2/ 7.62 SLAP (saboted light armor penetrator)
4/ 7.62 Armor piercing

.50 BMG (12.7x99mm) for antimateriel rifles
1/ .50 BMG
2/ .50 BMG Armor piercing
3/ .50 BMG HEIAP
3/ .50 BMG SLAP

25 mm cartridges for grenade launchers and antimateriel rifles
1/ 25 mm HE Air Burst
2/ 25 mm Flechette
3/ 25 mm Door breaching
4/ 25 mm knockout Air burst
5/ 25 mm Antipersonnel

For crossbows / compound bows
1/ Bolts
2/ Whistling bolts
3/ Incendiary bolts
4/ Tranquilizer bolts
5/ Flare bolts
6/ Oil bolts
7/ Flash bolts
8/ Smoke Bolts

For dart guns and rifles
1/ Tranquilizer darts
2/ Poison darts

Paintball guns / less than lethal launchers
1/ Tear gas balls
2/ Rubber ammo

Light to Medium Energy weapons
1/ 12V batteries

Medium to Heavy Energy weapons
1/ 24V batteries

Chemical throwers
1/ Napalm
2/ Glue
9mm rubber bullets can sound weird but it seems they exists and even on some other pistols / revolvers caliber, now I don't think they are effective as shotgun / grenade launcher / less than lethal launcher for knocking an opponent but it can causes some damage with less risks to kill a person but less than lethal rounds can be lethal at very close range (break some bones) that's even why beretta have made a new shotgun that people should know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsLqmiF7Fp0

It's a good pack but I wanted to use mostly existing stuff in therms of ammo and provide a sufficient amount of choice for projectile based weapons

Ninjerk
15th Nov 2009, 09:27
What do u mean by the order they're loaded?

different ammo per load?
8 shells, 4 bean bag, 4 regular shells?

Yes, but more specifically you would be able to have an EMP in the chamber, 3 sabots that would load next, and 4 beanbags (or any other variation of any given types of shells) with maybe a color coded GUI element to tell you what you have loaded.

Depending on how complicated you could have it (not very since it's headed for consoles, but a boy can dream), you could allow the player to pump out the EMP (as in the above example, this would save you the time/waste of firing the EMP) if he turns a corner and finds an armored, non-mechanical target.

This would set the shotgun apart in that it would take less time to actually utilize the other types of ammunition than it would to, say, swap clips in an AR/SMG.

Blade_hunter
15th Nov 2009, 10:35
I think it could be possible if you use the inventory for that for both Consoles and PCs, it should work for all weapons that are reloaded by feeding manually their loader like shotguns or multiple shot grenade launchers and even some other rifles since they are manually loaded ...
now for doing that in real time that would be more tricky ...

The only thing I think about a such system it's the fact that there is a need of a much more complex programming in therms of weapons often they switches their projectile regarding their own and the ammo reserve.
with a such system there is a need to memorize what projectile will be in the gun and when the gun will swap.
I think it's possible, but I think a such feature would be more valuable if there is more involved weapons ...

Ninjerk
16th Nov 2009, 07:48
I was thinking real-time with a key designated for "Next Ammo" and "Previous Ammo." .Iin the case of the shotgun, if you want to start loading EMPs because there's a bot coming around a corner, but you're still jumping in and out of cover trying to kill an armored commando (or whatever non-mechanical target) you'll be able to load suitable ammo on the fly.

For players who don't want to bother, they can just set it to whatever round they want and it will keep loading that ammo. Also, I think it would be ok to allow players to choose to clear the magazine from the inventory and have it just pump all of the shells out when they exit the menu.