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clayman
4th Feb 2008, 23:40
I've searched a bit on this forum and just need a confirmation : does the "lgntforce" command install and play Thief Gold and Thief 2 correctly on a Windows Vista op system like it did on XP ?

Thanks much....from clayman; the oldest living forum relic from the Dark Project days. ;)

Peter_Smith
5th Feb 2008, 01:42
I think so, but I do not have first hand experience. I am avoiding Vista like the plague. Put it this way -- I have never seen anything that contradicts using the -lgntforce option, althougth I have seen statements that you need compatibility mode to do the install. I am not sure if that is correct. My advice is to install using -lgntforce and see if it works. Then, if it doesn't, go to compatibility mode.

The install is only the tip of the iceberg. Even with XP, it is a big hassle to get Thief working, as you may know. In addition to the install, you need to

1. Modify the EXE's (make a backup first) so they run on only one processor / core. Search here for "affinity". An alternative is to use ProcessWatch to set affinity on launch.

2. If using Nvidia graphics, make changes necessary to implement "safe_texture_manager". That means, for Gold, find and use a modified EXE (http://www.thief-thecircle.com/download.asp?fid=727); for T2, edit user.cfg and remove the comment-semicolon in front of ;safe_texture_manager.

3. If using Nvidia, use driver version 163.75 (169 does not work). This is needed to make T1 play in XP. Not sure about Vista. In any case, 169.xx is flawed and breaks lots of games.

4. To get movies to run, you may need to install an appropriate version of the Indeo codecs (http://www.thief-thecircle.com/download.asp?fid=876) .

5. If using a Creative sound card, install Creative Alchemy if you want EAX to work under Vista.

6. If using a DX-10 graphics card such as ATI HD 2xxx or above or Nvidia 8xxx or above, then the rendering in T2 will be terrible. Search for and use a patch called DDFIX to get half-decent rendering of sky and dark textures. If using an Nvidia DX-9 card, you may also want DDFIX, but the DX-9 rendering problem (bad sky and only a few dark textures) is not nearly so bad. DDFIX requires an "unrolled" exe on which to apply the patch. PM me for details. Note that DDFIX does not display fog. Again, if you apply this patch, back-up your original EXE first.

7. Because DDFIX is flawed, I bought an ATI x1950 Pro, the last card to provide perfect rendering with Thief. DDFIX is unnecessary with this card (or any DX-9 ATI card). Use drivers 8.1, and you will get fog plus perfect sky and dark textures.

Some additional tweaks for Thief 1, the most problematic, are given here:

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112669

Please post back and let us know what steps were necessary for you and whether you have any problems. I know that Thief 1 and 2 do work under Vista, but I may have missed something.

clayman
8th Feb 2008, 20:33
Wow - thanks for that detailed answer, knew I could count you Peter. :)

Weird thing is, I didn't do any of those things and Thief Gold and 2 and all the associated FMs. work fine on my current XP platform.

The easiest thing might be to keep Thief and my other older games on this box when I buy the new PC, and somehow figure out how to make them share my widescreen monitor. :)

Peter_Smith
9th Feb 2008, 01:14
You are welcome. :)

What you had to do before (and then again now) depends on many things including whether or not you have a dual core CPU, whether you have an Nvidia or ATI card, whether you installed XP SP-2, and what you had done from a long way back and did not remember, etc. So I just shotgunned it and gave you some options, thinking this might affect your decision to use Vista.

The wide screen monitor is another matter. Better make sure you can display in correct 4:3 aspect ratio, or you might be unhappy with all the pudgy guards. I guess some people don't mind that, but it bugs me. Sometimes the display function depends on both the monitor an the video card. In other words, if you have a card that is displaying at 4:3, does the widesccreen monitor stretch it or display it with black side pillars?

You should be able to share your wide-screen monitor as well as control the other computer with a single mouse and keyboard using a KVM switch. Get one capable of the max resolution you might want.

Peter_Smith
9th Feb 2008, 02:14
You are welcome. :)

What you had to do before (and then again now) depends on many things including whether or not you have a dual core CPU, whether you have an Nvidia or ATI card, whether you installed XP SP-2, and what you had done from a long way back and did not remember, etc. So I just shotgunned it and gave you some options, thinking this might affect your decision to use Vista.

The wide screen monitor is another matter. Better make sure you can display in correct 4:3 aspect ratio, or you might be unhappy with all the pudgy guards. I guess some people don't mind that, but it bugs me. Sometimes the display function depends on both the monitor an the video card. In other words, if you have a card that is displaying at 4:3, does the widesccreen monitor stretch it or display it with black side pillars?

You should be possible to share your widescreen monitor as well as control the other computer with a single mouse and keyboard using a KVM switch. Get one capable of the max resolution you might want.

BrokenArts
9th Feb 2008, 02:38
I've got Thief 2 running on Vista, dual core issue is fixed, DDfix, sound enhancement pack, along with the Thief enhancement pack. Thief never looked soooo good. I haven't seen my thief sky look good in years, it does now.

I got this system, in August, I still have XP, and now this system. I'd rather play thief on Vista, with the new monitor, it looks wonderful.

Dell Inspiron 531
AMD Athlon 64 x2 Dual Core 4400+ 2.3 GHz
1 gig ram
GeForce 6150SE nForce - got it cheap, have been waiting to upgrade the video card, can get them cheaper elsewhere, instead of ordering it directly from Dell. With the lack of new games that excitement me, I haven't wanted to upgrade the card, as of yet. Thief runs smooth, it looks gorgeous, I'm in no hurry to upgrade my card. I will later in the future. Just my experience, yes Vista is a PITA sometimes, but, it runs Thief, all is forgiven.......for now. :p

Gillie
9th Feb 2008, 13:44
Sorry for butting in I was interested in this.
I too have got Thief playing with Dell vista after a while!, some tweaks and the ddfix.
Some fantastic graphics in the missions I have played. Plus a new monitor also.
Gorgeous starry sky, actually there has been less problems so far as well.
Only thing no fog.
I don't want to fiddle with it in case it might not work. It is fine just now.

What is a Thief enhancement pack and sound pack??.:o

BrokenArts
9th Feb 2008, 16:56
Gillie, don't worry about butting in, the more the merrier around here.

Here are the links for the enhancement packs, I've had no issues with them, easy to install.

Thief Enhancement pack (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118999) This pack make some of the objects in game look better, they enhanced the low poly objects, and made them look sooo much better, definitely worthy of the DL.

There is also a texture pack, I haven't grabbed that one as of yet.

Thief Sound Enhancement pack (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119405) Just updates some of the sounds in Thief.

All these links will take you to TTLG, and their threads, with the necessary links for DL.

Thief just won't die, lot of updates and new things with Thief lately, I am thoroughly enjoying it. :)

clayman
9th Feb 2008, 19:58
But the enhancement pack and sound pack will make any Thief install look and sound better, not just on Vista platforms, right ?

To be honest, this sounds like way too much work to get 2 games to work right on a new system. I'm leaning even stronger toward just keeping the old system since all my old games are running stable currently. Its the newer games that won't run well on the current system (memory/space hogs). Plus I'm nearly out of hard drive space and memory slots.

BrokenArts
9th Feb 2008, 22:21
You can keep your old system, I just prefer to play it right now on Vista, I can do both actually. The new monitor is a big plus for Thief.

Those enhancement packs are just that, enhancements, you don't have to use them, they can work on either Vista or XP. It doesn't matter.

Thief is old, any enhancements to me, to make the game look better, is worth it. I love Thief, if I can make it look better, I will, without too much of a hassle. I don't mind the tweaks, I don't mind the enhancements, if I can install them without a problem, anyone can. :p

http://modetwo.net/users/brokenarts/7_Sisters.jpg
This image is from the Seven Sisters, on a new LCD monitor, it looks bright, colorful, wonderful. On my old CRT, its washed out, terribly. The moon is supposed to be that orange red color. I have a sky, the colors, the objects all look better, for a game that is over 9 yrs old, I never dreamed it could get this good. Worth it to me.

Gillie
9th Feb 2008, 22:43
Thanks for the reply @ Broken Arts.
I will look at it.
I am a bit vague still with these things.:o I take they download into the Thief folder.
Thief missions especially Seven Sisters has wonderful graphics anyway.
More than I expected,when I got it to play with Vista. :thumbsup:

BrokenArts
10th Feb 2008, 01:56
When DLing the packs, they will have instructions to follow, where to put, and install, etc. For a game that is over 9 yrs old, as time goes by, tweaks cannot be avoided. So far so good. To have a good tweak to make the game better, what more could we ask for.

Peter_Smith
10th Feb 2008, 06:47
BA,

That image seems to be 4:3 aspect ratio, not wide screen as clayman will be getting with his monitor. Just for my curiosity, and perhaps his, do you have a wide screen monitor? If so, how do you get it to display 4:3? The moon actually looks a little compressed on the sides. I guess 1280 x 1024 (a 5:4 ratio) displayed on a 4:3 screen would do that. What resolution are you using?

Clayman,

NV's expansion pack for the objects is definitely worthwhile. A bunch of really crummy door textures, furniture, etc., have been replaced. Gives it a fresh look. BA's image does not show them well, if at all. That is an exterior shot, and it looks the same with or without EP. Most of the EP objects are interior. Maybe the lights are different, but they are too far away to tell.

I don't know about the audio enhancement. I have heard some favorable reports, but I am chicken because it installs with an EXE, and I don't think there is a deinstall yet. NV's EP is easily removed with one line in a CFG file.

Whether or not it is worthwhile to go to the trouble to get everything set up in Vista, IMO it will definitely be worth the trouble unless you are plannng to use a DX-10 video card. If you are planning to use a DX-10 card, then you will have to use DDFIX to render it well, as is shown in BA's shot. The problem with that is that you can never see fog again in T2 with either Nvidia or ATI DX-10 cards unless you play the non-DDFIX version. In that case, all the dark texture rendering will be really crappy. End result: no T2 mission with fog will look right with a DX-10 card. Minor point to some, maybe, but there is a lot of complaining about this problem at TTLG.

I just bought an ATI X1950 Pro to eliminate the fog problem with DDFIX. It gives perfect rendering just like BA's shot, plus it does fog correctly with Catalyst 8.1 (a recent ATI improvement). For me, personally, if I felt the need to upgrade my computer a couple of years hence, I would first check to see if there were any good rendering solutions with DX-10 or later cards. [There are none now.] If not, I would leave Thief behind on my current rig, which is way fast enough for Thief and Doom3 (The Dark Project). But that depends on my liking my current computer. Your mileage will vary.

BA, the quality of a screen shot has nothing to do with the monitor that was being used on the computer that generated the screen shot. The screen shot is a translation between your video card's frame buffer and a disk file. The appearance of the screen shot is affected mainly by the video card that generates the screen shot, the monitor that views it, and the editing. Good editing, BA. :)

Gillie
10th Feb 2008, 13:06
I have not looked at the enhancement pack as yet.
Will though as I have a problem it seems
I tried to play " Theker's castle"
It says when I start up the game.
"This file contains the GEN. OSM script file for T2.
Which you have to copy manually along with convict OSM into Thief2
Programme folder on your hard drive.
I have those already. I reinstalled them anyway.
The other fm's are playing but seem not so good. Think I have done something to it

BrokenArts
10th Feb 2008, 14:25
Peter, no wide screen monitor. I run Thief at 1024 x 768 with the DDFix. I realize each monitor will see that screen shot differently. Curious to note though, when I have hooked up this new monitor to XP, it doesn't look as good. XP has the 6800 series card, slightly better card, go figure.

I used to be a fan of Nvidia, I am leaning more towards ATI. Hopefully sometime this year, I'll upgrade to a new graphics card. With all the threads on TTLG about the fixes and what not, I wanted to wait and see what the results were.

I used FRAPS to get the screen shots, and edit with Adobe if needed. I mainly posted all what I said that Thief can indeed run on Vista, without too much a hassle. All the enhancements can work on either platform. With Vista being such a pain sometimes, I'm surprised it runs at all on Vista. :p

RickJames
10th Feb 2008, 14:54
Gillie, don't worry about butting in, the more the merrier around here.

Here are the links for the enhancement packs, I've had no issues with them, easy to install.

Thief Enhancement pack (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118999) This pack make some of the objects in game look better, they enhanced the low poly objects, and made them look sooo much better, definitely worthy of the DL.

There is also a texture pack, I haven't grabbed that one as of yet.

Thief Sound Enhancement pack (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119405) Just updates some of the sounds in Thief.

All these links will take you to TTLG, and their threads, with the necessary links for DL.

Thief just won't die, lot of updates and new things with Thief lately, I am thoroughly enjoying it. :)
Thanks for the info, this sounds cool. Do they have any texture packs and stuff for T2 yet? Looks like TTLG.com is down right now :(

BrokenArts
10th Feb 2008, 14:58
Hi RickJames, those are for indeed T2!! I noticed that as well, TTLG is down, hopefully not for long.
Interesting to note, in the beginning of the thread for the enhancement pack, they link to another thread where they show screen shots of what they were doing, like making the purple purse look better, the gold cup, chairs, they took so many objects and made them look better. That is why I am all for this. There is talk of doing more enhancements, but for now, this pack is released, and its great. :)

And with the DDFix, I have my sky back, that was an utter shock, and a wowzer to look at.

The enhancement pack is for Thief gold too, I haven't looked it that thoroughly for gold, once TTLG is back up, check out that thread, and see what they say about it for gold.

I don't have gold installed, so, thats why I didn't bother with it for gold.

In the Thief Fan mission forum of TTLG. All those threads are on the first two pages. So much going on with Thief lately, it still amazes, so many dedicated taffers, we are one lucky bunch. I am grateful.

Peter_Smith
10th Feb 2008, 16:07
BA is correct. EP is for both T2 and Gold. There is only one install file set, but different resources are actually used in the game.

I think the improvement of EP is more dramatic, or perhaps more essential, in T2 than in T1.

T2 had some old-looking standard objects (doors, crates, etc.) that looked out of place in modern T2 architecture because various authors have contributed extensive sets of new textures to the architecture, which most modern FMs are based on. These old objects stood out as imperfections. So the EP smooths it out and makes everything look fresh. A few authors include EP objects directly. The advantage of installing EP is that you always get them.

In T1/Gold the EP creates nice looking objects in an otherwise imperfect world of coarser textures. Nice, but not as good looking overall. That is a problem with T1/Gold, not the EP.

Peter_Smith
10th Feb 2008, 16:27
Curious to note though, when I have hooked up this new monitor to XP, it doesn't look as good. XP has the 6800 series card, slightly better card, go figure.

Thanks for the info on your configuration.

You say that the 6800 is better. Better than what? In my experience concerning T2 rendering, the 6800 is worse than the 4200, exactly the same rendering as the 7xxx series but slower, and better than all 8xxx (DX-10) series.

I doubt that there is any intrinsic difference with rendering under Vista. I have no personal experience, but others such as bikerdude have reported that, in spite of the fact that video drivers have been rewritten for Vista, there is no difference in T2 rendering. An explanation of your worse appearance in XP might be found if we were to compare:

video cards;
whether or not you are using DDFIX
(6800 needs DDFIX too for sky and certain, but not all, dark textures);
video card driver version;
monitor driver;
monitor resolution and refresh rate settings;
what exactly is worse?

If you would like to explore this in detail, I suggest you start another thread in this forum. Clayman's thread has been well enough hijacked already. :)

BrokenArts
10th Feb 2008, 16:51
No, the 6800 does not look better, I was being sarcastic. Even when the monitors are switched, the new monitor on XP
doesn't look any better, you think it would. For now, its not worth trying to figure out why. I don't care really.
Who knows for sure, why exactly it looks better on one, and not the other.

Well, Clayman could jump in here any time, hijacking or not.
If he chooses to run it on his current comp, thats fine, he should know all his options. By now, he probably does. :)

BrokenArts
10th Feb 2008, 17:11
No more hijacking, but, it is nice to have some sort of discussion around here. No, I won't start a thread for my issues, and what not, no need.

Gillie
10th Feb 2008, 17:27
Sorry If I hijacked too:o
The sites seem down still. It seems very interesting anyway.
I have had issues with Vista and my 800 series card . It does look good in the main though now.

clayman
10th Feb 2008, 19:27
I'm back into this discussion.....a lot of options offered; thanks to all !

It seems my PC technical knowledge gets to be less and less as time goes on, half of what you mention and the associated acronyms are completely beyond me.

I did install the EP last night but not the sound pack. The thread at TTLG indicated that some liked it, some didn't, and some were leery of it. Since I'm hearing impaired and Thief sounds find to me now, I avoided it. :) I started up the Mages Towers mission and saw some object improvements, especially doors. But I only had about 30 minutes to play, so I'll explore more tonight.

It may be I just need to update my current computer and tweak its performance. The facts :

- Dell Dimension 4700 Pentium 4 2.8 ghtz (3 years old)
- 512 kb DDR II memory
- ATI Radeon X700 256 mb video card (PCIe)
- Replaced puny factory 90w power supply with 450 watt supply a couple of years ago
- Samsung 226bw widescreen monitor (the X700 has no digital port so the monitor is an analog connection)

I can't run any of the newer memory intensive games (Dark Messiah locks so much I think I threw the DVD case over my neighbor's roof in anger) ;) So adding 1 gb RAM is step 1.

Then, I discovered in Task Manager that I have 47 processes eating up all but 180 mb of the RAM. Norton SystemWorks I'm sure is part of it, but not all. 10 years ago I could have confidently gone in and zapped the offending and unneeded processes, but not now. So I'll get some help on that.

Thanks for all the advice.... :)

clayman
10th Feb 2008, 19:31
P.S. - regarding running Thief in widescreen aspect ratio, I have no issues with fat looking guards, the game runs fine and looks fine. I seem to recall I customized something at installation that is the equivalent of the "JUST" aspect setting on my plasma TV.

BrokenArts
10th Feb 2008, 19:41
Clayman, certainly wasn't trying to hijack the thread, just so you know, just offering options. :) Seems more than a few weren't aware of the enhancement packs. I do think you'll enjoy it a lot. I know I do immensely.

Dark Messiah, I've read mixed reactions about it, and its also a resource hog.

You have Norton? That explains it. :p :whistle: ;-)

My tweak partner is Leatherman, without him, and his guidance along the way, it would of been harder for me. Helps to have someone you know that is a geek. :D
I've got Ubuntu installed on the XP comp, he's trying to convert me over to Linux, eventually, he'll succeed.

Gillie
14th Feb 2008, 11:07
I put in the Enhancement pack,though not the sound pack.
Seems daunting to do to me.
It is different. All the coin stacks are edgy and the purse look good as well as many other things.
Thanks Broken Arts for that..:thumbsup:

clayman
26th Feb 2008, 00:36
I'm back to this thread after days of my PC down or hurting.

After reading all advice and consulting with my local PC guru, I've done the following :

1) Uninstalled and yanked out the ATI Radeon x700 - the fan blew up and the card stopped working
2) Added 1 gb RAM
3) Replaced Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS with newer Soundblaster X-Fi, plus new speakers (result - much better Thief (and other games) sound at 24 channels and EAX on)
4) Deleted all things associated with Norton and replaced with AVG 7.5 and some other tidbits to protect and backup
5) Dowloaded the latest Intel graphics accelerator drivers from Intel


Amazingly enough, with the old video card out and the new stuff installed, everything Thief-ish sounds 100% better and looks exactly the same with no video card at all, running off the onboard video controller !

So, I now have a Visiontek/ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro card in hand. And my Samsung SyncMaster 226bw with HDMI cable and converter ready. Can install it all and see what happens. But with all the DDFIX issues and other concerns voiced in this thread and others, should I even mess with this ???

Enquiring minds just want to know. :)

BrokenArts
26th Feb 2008, 00:51
Welcome back Clayman, I'm sure Peter and tBM will be along to throw in their advice. Glad you are tweaking things, you got rid of Norton! I've got AVG, no problems with it.

Well the DDFix has been fine for me, I've had no issues with it. Enhancement packs and all that, no issues. Hopefully the others will chime in. Good luck. You're getting there.

clayman
26th Feb 2008, 01:40
I feel like my PC has taken a high colonic. ;)

Still tweaking things, and will tackle the vid card tomorrow. But Clayman and Clayboys have tested all versions of Thief and they work just fine. As do the other games.

How is this so with no accelerated vicdeo card ???:nut:

BrokenArts
26th Feb 2008, 02:11
So, if Thief looks the same with no vid card, I guess you could say, Thief has looked like..........:p

Peter_Smith
26th Feb 2008, 04:24
How does the sky look in T2, say at the start of Running Interference? Blotchy or smooth? Do you see stars? Are there any problems with blotchy appearance in dark textures? Of basso's face? Here is the way it should look:

(Click on image to enlarge)
Running Interference start, ATI X1950 Pro, 1024 x 768
http://home.comcast.net/~smithpd1/thief/Running_interference_ATI_x1950_Pro_small.jpg (http://home.comcast.net/~smithpd1/thief/Running_interference_ATI_x1950_Pro.jpg)

If you do not have rendering problems, then you are good to go. Some recent on-board graphics look good with Thief. If all the rendering is good, then you can do no better for Thief. Bear in mind that if you use the HD 2400 Pro card, Thief rendering will be terrible, and DDFIX will only partially fix it. Fog will always be absent. Not a happy solution for Thief.

One thing that might work for you is to install the HD 2400 Pro card and then set up two hardware configurations, one that includes the on-board graphics but not the HD 2400 (as default), and one that includes the HD 2400 but not the on-board graphics. If this were possible, then you could select which configuration you want at bootup time. You would need a switch that would change the input to the monitor. That way you could play modern games with the 2400 if you choose. Whether this will work is contingent on the ability to disable the on-board graphics in the hardware configuration alone, without also disabling it in the BIOS. Your computer guru should know.

It cannot hurt to try it, but if you are unfamiliar with these things you might get messed up. Better ask guru's advice first.

EDIT: On-board video these days is usually an accelerated 3-D processor. FYI, Thief 2 will not play without hardware acceleration. Look at your system specs to see what it is. Its only disadvantage is that it is not state of the art fast, and, at least in older attempts, there were problems that made such chips strongly discouraged for gaming. Yours is modern and may be just fine for Thief. It may be inadequate for modern games.

clayman
26th Feb 2008, 14:36
Well, at the beginning of Interference, my sky is perfect with bright stars and moving clouds. No blotches. Basso looks his same handsome self.

I'm not going to risk the dual hardware mode route since everything is working superbly right now.

I guess I'll return the ATI 2400 for now.

Thanks for all the help ! :)

mhairt
5th Apr 2009, 11:48
Finally got Thief Gold installed and working on Vista thanks to all the tips here. Just wondering is it possible to play in 3rd person as in Thief 3?
Thanks