PDA

View Full Version : Rahabim Ideas?



Pages : [1] 2 3

Umbralim
12th Dec 2013, 19:17
Since Both Zephon and Melchiah both have threads already i thought I'd start one for Rahab.

So I've been thinking about how the Rahabim could be implemented and I've come to the conclusion that while the ability to swim in water is there forte I feel the only way to really make it work would be to go a bit more outside teh lore. so here are my ideas

-Serpent Slither: besides being swimmers the Rahabim looked like snakes so I thought one of there abilities could be the power to contort themselves to fit into small crevices that other classes couldn't get into and wait there to ambush . when a human comes close they can leap out in ambush and attack. This would mean humans would have to be careful around areas they know Rahabim can ambush from. Its more like a trap class than a stealth class and I feel it fits Rahabs Passive methods. Alchemist can burn them out of there hidey holes if they know where to look.

= Snake Charm: -- For some reason when i think of the Rahabim I get this idea of hypnotic powers in their eyest=. I know there is no real Lore to support anything close to this but there's nothing that says they didn't have powers like that and Kain had some hypnotic abilities in BO. the lore excuse could be Raziel being a wraith was immune to it. They can use it to make illusions of fellow vampires to confuse the enemy and to distort the vision of hunters lowering their accurcay. it would be a very interesting support class in my opinion.


- Anyone else got an idea for what they could do.
-

Tube_Reaver
12th Dec 2013, 19:30
Since Both Zephon and Melchiah both have threads already i thought I'd start one for Rahab.

So I've been thinking about how the Rahabim could be implemented and I've come to the conclusion that while the ability to swim in water is there forte I feel the only way to really make it work would be to go a bit more outside teh lore. so here are my ideas

-Serpent Slither: besides being swimmers the Rahabim looked like snakes so I thought one of there abilities could be the power to contort themselves to fit into small crevices that other classes couldn't get into and wait there to ambush . when a human comes close they can leap out in ambush and attack. This would mean humans would have to be careful around areas they know Rahabim can ambush from. Its more like a trap class than a stealth class and I feel it fits Rahabs Passive methods. Alchemist can burn them out of there hidey holes if they know where to look.

= Snake Charm: -- For some reason when i think of the Rahabim I get this idea of hypnotic powers in their eyest=. I know there is no real Lore to support anything close to this but there's nothing that says they didn't have powers like that and Kain had some hypnotic abilities in BO. the lore excuse could be Raziel being a wraith was immune to it. They can use it to make illusions of fellow vampires to confuse the enemy and to distort the vision of hunters lowering their accurcay. it would be a very interesting support class in my opinion.


- Anyone else got an idea for what they could do.
-

In regards to your first idea, it sounds far too much like the ideas jumping around for Melchiahs brood about digging underground and waiting for an ambush
which I feel is better since you can dig almost anywhere, rather than hide in crevices, in which these spots will be known once you get a feel for the map.

As to the second idea, the lowering accuracy part would be very over-powered and frustrating to play against, I mean imagine you are playing a human, and shooting your crossbow, and even though you have the cursor/reticle on the enemy, you still miss even though s/he didn't move.
Don't like the idea of lowered accuracy at all, especially in a game where you have to aim, shoot, hope your connection is stable and your ping isn't high etc etc.

Frankly I think Rahabim are probably the most difficult to implement lore-wise, as they were the most sensitive to sunlight.


Exploiting Nosgoth's waterways, the Rahabim had the potential to be the most widespread of the clans, but a drawback of their evolution prevented it: the clan could not tolerate sunlight. They could only survive Nosgoth's weak daylight if they were sheltered by a roof or submerged underwater. Even the adults would burst into flames if exposed to it

Now I know that the game is set prior to these major evolutions taking place, so Psyonix could make something happen here.

Vampmaster
12th Dec 2013, 20:49
I mentioned in another thread, Electric Eel Shock, Shark Jaws or Dislicating Snake Jaws (that means opening insanely wide, not split like Zephon), Poison/Acid Spray or Octopus Ink (mix'n'matching aquatic creatures, but what's wrong with that) and just now I thought of a blinding flash like some glowing fish (yes, those exist) might do.

Apologies is other people have mentioned any of those. I just wanted to make sure they didn't get left out.

EDIT: Oh, and some sort of sticky goo, like a hagfish makes.
EDIT 2: Oh, and I forgot to mention a leech ability, because of their SR1 codename Aluka.

Badmojoman
13th Dec 2013, 17:07
I don't want to tear down your ideas, but there are some drawbacks to the suggestions the OP has made :(

1. Building little areas for only Rahabim to go to would take too much time from the devs and begs to question why don't they just create bodies of water everywhere instead, or create rain cycles on the map just to accommodate for one class.

2. Mind control or loosing control of your character is something that gamers usually hate with passion in games as it leaves very little room for counterplay. Having an illusion or a decoy effect is very hard to pull of, since players are gonna be able to tell the difference between a player controlling a character and an NPC. Also if too well done, then people may end up confused and think that its lag.

Sorry for throwing a monkey wrench at your ideas, I admit thinking of non-water based ideas for Rahab is kinda hard. May I suggest a ranged attack perhaps? Like spitting acid or something in those lines. Since the Rahabim were very lizard like and in LoK Cinematic Rahab, had scale like features.

They could also have movement speed boost of some kind.
Scales also could provide some more of a damage resistance.
They could also perform a scream of sorts to disrupt opponents or knock them back.
Have them be female vampires to add a gimmick (not always a bad thing)
They could temporarily turn invisible, because..... emm... The Predator and Reptile (Mortal Kombat)
Acid spit again.
Throw a Trident and impale people on walls.
....
....
Summon Aquaman :(

Vampmaster
13th Dec 2013, 18:23
I think if the Rahabim are going to spit any sort of liquid of chemical, it should be more of a short range spray than a projectile which would go against the asymmetrical gameplay that Se have talked about.

Umbralim
13th Dec 2013, 18:47
I don't want to tear down your ideas, but there are some drawbacks to the suggestions the OP has made :(

1. Building little areas for only Rahabim to go to would take too much time from the devs and begs to question why don't they just create bodies of water everywhere instead, or create rain cycles on the map just to accommodate for one class.

2. Mind control or loosing control of your character is something that gamers usually hate with passion in games as it leaves very little room for counterplay. Having an illusion or a decoy effect is very hard to pull of, since players are gonna be able to tell the difference between a player controlling a character and an NPC. Also if too well done, then people may end up confused and think that its lag.

Sorry for throwing a monkey wrench at your ideas, I admit thinking of non-water based ideas for Rahab is kinda hard. May I suggest a ranged attack perhaps? Like spitting acid or something in those lines. Since the Rahabim were very lizard like and in LoK Cinematic Rahab, had scale like features.

They could also have movement speed boost of some kind.
Scales also could provide some more of a damage resistance.
They could also perform a scream of sorts to disrupt opponents or knock them back.
Have them be female vampires to add a gimmick (not always a bad thing)
They could temporarily turn invisible, because..... emm... The Predator and Reptile (Mortal Kombat)
Acid spit again.
Throw a Trident and impale people on walls.
....
....
Summon Aquaman :(

haha, no offense taken, I can see how players would get frustrated constantly getting their vision screwed with, and decoys tend to be a tad obvious, still I feel misdirection support really fits up with Rahabs Alley so perhaps something different like a
Mist cloud would work better. mist related powers are used in LoK plenty from Kains mist form to the spell used to hide the Ancient citadel. So how bout a ritual where a Rahabim summons a fog on to the map that vampires can see through better than humans and killing the Rahabim would clear the mist.

Badmojoman
14th Dec 2013, 01:34
haha, no offense taken, I can see how players would get frustrated constantly getting their vision screwed with, and decoys tend to be a tad obvious, still I feel misdirection support really fits up with Rahabs Alley so perhaps something different like a
Mist cloud would work better. mist related powers are used in LoK plenty from Kains mist form to the spell used to hide the Ancient citadel. So how bout a ritual where a Rahabim summons a fog on to the map that vampires can see through better than humans and killing the Rahabim would clear the mist.

Mist/fog, would definitely make sense. Rahabims whole thing was that they overcame one of their big environmental hazards and then completely got defined by it. So giving them anything that, isn't water related feels like missing the mark. However it would have to avoid the Aquaman pitfall where they summon fish on dry land or just summon a lame water elemental or something.

It is difficult to even think of a cool looking theme for them, without them just looking like fish-people or snake-people.

Vampmaster
16th Dec 2013, 22:23
Mist/fog, would definitely make sense. Rahabims whole thing was that they overcame one of their big environmental hazards and then completely got defined by it. So giving them anything that, isn't water related feels like missing the mark. However it would have to avoid the Aquaman pitfall where they summon fish on dry land or just summon a lame water elemental or something.

It is difficult to even think of a cool looking theme for them, without them just looking like fish-people or snake-people.

I don't think fish/snake scales would look that bad as long as it was kept subtle, but if you're looking for an alternative, what about giving them shark skin or stingray type patterns?

I just googled some stingray pictures and they have some interesting colours and patterns without being your typical scaly fish.

EDIT: This isn't what I meant, but I thought it was funny http://www.clipartof.com/portfolio/djholmes/illustration/peaceful-stingray-smiling-and-gesturing-the-peace-sign-37141.html

diuqSehT
17th Dec 2013, 01:15
Forced-Drownings as part of melee. Uh, how about them having the reverse of Lifeguard CPR as their weapon---an ability to put water into the lungs of someone they latch onto???!!!!!! That'd be murder-fish nasty, right? And I don't know how melee works in this game but being extra slippery could be an advantage for the Rahabs when wrastling or evading human grab attacks. Um, also, if anyone is using a flame thrower against them, the Rahab would have a couple extra seconds of moisture in them to resist the burning effects, and the human might be stunned for a second too by how tasty the air smells after he starts frying that fish-vamp. There should be occasional flowing water gates and defenses built in to the environments, and that's where other vamps would hesitate while the Rab's rush right through and get a morale boost.

Badmojoman
17th Dec 2013, 02:25
I don't think fish/snake scales would look that bad as long as it was kept subtle, but if you're looking for an alternative, what about giving them shark skin or stingray type patterns?

I just googled some stingray pictures and they have some interesting colours and patterns without being your typical scaly fish.

EDIT: This isn't what I meant, but I thought it was funny http://www.clipartof.com/portfolio/djholmes/illustration/peaceful-stingray-smiling-and-gesturing-the-peace-sign-37141.html

Yeah, that's not a bad idea at all... reminds me of street sharks. These things were awesome and vampires and sharks already have the fangs thing in common. So that would be pretty awesome.

Shehadi703
20th Dec 2013, 09:17
perhaps the Rahabim, can get an advantage/drawback mechanic. For instance, they have superior sensory abilities. Dont know how it would be implimented, but there must be a way to figure out what the humans are doing without even being that close (Like smell or enhanced hearing). The drawback could be that they cant expose themselves to areas without shade.

I also like the idea of Rahabim having the ability to travel through tighter spaces that other people cannot access, and having a range of support abilities, that just disorient and confuse their human opponents (Such as sounds that distract them from an attack comming from another angle), as well as relaying important info to their teammates.

I also kicked around the thought of each map having some sort of water system that allows the Rahabim to get around the map unharassed and unseen. Sure the Melchia's clan can burrow, but they may not have the ability just to completely circumvent human defenses undetected as easily as the Rahabim. Something else that may be cool are bodies of water that the Dumahim could jump down and knock the vampire hunters into, and as they fall into the water they find themselves victim of a feeding frenzy.

I know these ideas might not work out so well, and implimenting water into every map is pretty demanding, so tell me waht you think.

Vampmaster
20th Dec 2013, 10:08
What about summoning water beneath their feet to launch them into the air? Or maybe they leave a wake (water trail like a speedboat) behind them when running that would knock over enemies. They could sort of skate around on it.

Badmojoman
20th Dec 2013, 12:56
What if after a certain period of time it starts raining on the map. Putting all other vampires on the defensive and allowing the humans to go on the offensive, but the Rahabim would be the only ones who get a benefit from the rain and the would become the apex predator during this time.

This would be a little simpler to implement then changing the map layout to support bodies of water, but would probably mess about with the dynamic of the game and balance too much probably.

diuqSehT
21st Dec 2013, 00:01
Rain! It's definitely part of that murky world. Actually, I'd like to see how vampires dealt with it to avoid massive casualties every single time it rained. They must have had a duck & cover school for the fledglings to prepare them to get to safety at a moment's notice, but also their roads would have needed regularly spaced hidey holes with overhanging roofs for the adults too, the same way we have covered bus stations & roadside gas stations every so often, etc. Locals would have known where the caves were, but the empire would need a way to look out for the safety of traveling vampires who didn't know the lay of the land. Some kind of sign system? Or they'd scent out the safety of dank places with their noses? So maybe a universally known scent marker would be placed at the mouth of every cave, and Nosgoth just happened to have no shortage of holes in the ground? But also, wouldn't rain water run into those holes in the ground!!!??? So..... Ha! What if there were a bunch of those egyptian themed spider-woven tents to take shelter in, like the one we saw in the Silenced Cathedral that contained a power-up after you solved the puzzle so it's tent flaps opened up.

Shehadi703
21st Dec 2013, 07:46
Another thought is about a redesign of the Turelim and the Dumahim. First off, turn what is currently the Turelhim, and make them Dumahim, it just makes more sense, perhaps make them a bit more slimmed down. Next, make the Turelim, still a bulky class, but more slender, with a vshaped torso, and have that class more focused on telekenesis. Once this change has been made, you can focus on the Rahabim being the stealthy "in the shadows class" And give them mist abilities, as well as superior flexibility and manueverability, and serpent like qualities. How does that sound to everyone else?

predatorkid1
21st Dec 2013, 08:07
i think everyone is forgetting that it was dumah who was huge,not his fledgelings,they were the smallest but got quite challenging later on when they grouped on you,turelim being the biggest ones is completely accurate however i thought something a way to appeal to everyone=As you level up there are cutscenes AC3 style,where your vampires evolve different features,first their finger,then their ears,and after these their unique devolutions-turelim would bet slimmer with its ears getting bigger,dumahim would get the dark skin and the tongue ect ect. so it should be really cool to see just an idea because people seem to forgett how big the turelim were and how huge turel himself was.

Vampmaster
21st Dec 2013, 09:32
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120710190554/legacyofkain/images/0/05/SR1-Intro-182.png
http://lparchive.org/Legacy-of-Kain-Soul-Reaver/Update%2011/dumah.jpg
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110416170714/legacyofkain/images/4/4e/Defiance-Turel-Concept.jpg

As you can see from these pictures, Dumah is twice the size of Raziel and Turel is three or four times the size of Raziel. Before devolution they're roughly the same size. Turel is actually stood further away, so he might be slightly talker even then.

Vallass
22nd Dec 2013, 18:57
Rain! It's definitely part of that murky world. Actually, I'd like to see how vampires dealt with it to avoid massive casualties every single time it rained. They must have had a duck & cover school for the fledglings to prepare them to get to safety at a moment's notice, but also their roads would have needed regularly spaced hidey holes with overhanging roofs for the adults too, the same way we have covered bus stations & roadside gas stations every so often, etc. Locals would have known where the caves were, but the empire would need a way to look out for the safety of traveling vampires who didn't know the lay of the land. Some kind of sign system? Or they'd scent out the safety of dank places with their noses? So maybe a universally known scent marker would be placed at the mouth of every cave, and Nosgoth just happened to have no shortage of holes in the ground? But also, wouldn't rain water run into those holes in the ground!!!??? So..... Ha! What if there were a bunch of those egyptian themed spider-woven tents to take shelter in, like the one we saw in the Silenced Cathedral that contained a power-up after you solved the puzzle so it's tent flaps opened up.

I love Badmo's idea of rain and having cover for the vamps is a good idea, but in the current era, it'd get vamps killed more often than help. Like DiuSeht said, they could have huts or caves to hide in, but then all the humans have to do is find said cave and fire inside the whole time it rains. The grenades alone would wipe out all the vamps, unless we gave them cave systems to travel through, in which case why would vamps do anything but run around in the caves? They would never chance the rain and make the whole idea pointless. To add to that, what human would be stupid enough to run into a cave system full of vamps? It'd become a CoD campfest, and if you've played CoD, you know how tedious, boring, time-consuming, and flat out f*&^$%g stupid that can be. Not to say it's a bad idea, honestly. Sorry if I sound like a downer, cause I LOVE the idea of rain in-game. I just see ALOT of new players or even lazy ones being cheap and abusing the crap out of this. ESPECIALLY if the rain runs inside and collects within. All humans have to do is literally wait for the vamps to come out, or simply let them burn.

Shehadi703
24th Dec 2013, 03:46
I was thinking that maybe another good water route or source for the Rahabim could be aquaducts built by the humans. As the humans began to gain power, perhaps they build a network of aquaducts, not just to bring water to their cities, but offensively so they can bring it to the battlefield and have a convenient source of what is effectively acid, against the vampires. But this eventually worked to their disadvantage, backfiring on them when the Rahabim started using them as a quick way to get around undetected. Like snakes in a sewer, they now infest their water system, and pop out in areas other people do not have access to.

well remember that even when Kain was a young vampire in blood omen, all rain did was weaken you a bit and caused your health to drain slightly faster, but it wasnt even close to instadeath. So i would say the rain would be a minor hinderance.

diuqSehT
24th Dec 2013, 21:44
Good reminder about the "ouch!" effect of rain on even 1 day old Kain.
And those aquaducts would be a great addition to the landscape because they'd be a longterm fixture you could time travel to see in their various states of repair, first as a plus for mankind and then as a drawback. It'd fit in with the squirming feeling of how everything else falls apart and gets twisted from its original purpose.

lucinvampire
25th Dec 2013, 16:02
Loving some of the Rahabim ideas :D but I think the powers have to be universal in that not specific to having to be in or near a water area.

Lol yeah Kain was okay until in BO2 and you stood him in a puddle - but if you moved on he'd be okay - was only if you felt in a cruel mood and left him there he'd die...

Shehadi703
25th Dec 2013, 23:31
well its hard to call, if i had to design all of the races myself, Razielim, would stay the swooping creatures that they are, Dumahim would be standard, direct combat warriors, Turelim would be another tough opponent that also filled a ranged roll with telekenesis, the Melchiahim would be an ambush type vampire, that i would say gained more benifiets from feeding off of people (To perhaps defense and strength) but said strength would depend on how often they kill, The Zephonim, would be focused on ambush as well, but would be able to climb along the walls (kind of like an alien from natural selection, not that we would want to look to other games for ideas), and finally i would think that The Rahabim could be focused on more of a support rule.

It would be neat to have a class that toys with their enemies, by playing with their perceptions, making the humans think they are hearing an incoming attack to keep them guessing. I myself would find it quite satisfying to use the humans paranoia against them and keep a group of people that outnumber me occupied with misdirections until tha cavalry arrives. I really also think that serpantine flexibility and stealthiness should also play a role with the Rahabim.

LegacyOfKayn
26th Dec 2013, 16:29
The rain ideea is interesting...if u were playing on a battlegrond like a city the vamps could get shelter in the houses...so that shouldn't be a problem,and if the battleground was let's say a forest a small cave should work...if the rabahim have a mist cloud abiliti they could fill the cave with it so that the hunters can't shoot them from the distance (the vams should see in the fog)...the zephonim could barricade the enterance with web and after the flamethrowers come close to burn it down,after they burn it the rahabim could pull them in the cave with some pull abiliti.As for the grenades sience the vamps could see trough the fog they could just keep their distance from them till they explode.

I think the Rahabim should be more like a spellcaster class but also a little better than the Zephonim and Melchiam on melle.

Badmojoman
26th Dec 2013, 17:30
well remember that even when Kain was a young vampire in blood omen, all rain did was weaken you a bit and caused your health to drain slightly faster, but it wasnt even close to instadeath. So i would say the rain would be a minor hinderance.

The rain would definitely NOT be instadeath. If it was so effective that you had to hole up and hide, then it would be terrible design, simply because it halts gameplay and makes everyone camp.

Instead the rain should be incentive to place humans on the offensive and make the vampires play more carefully. The gameplay balance would be maintained by the Rahabim becoming slightly more aggressive and powerful.

You could even have a timer on it so you could plan for an counter attack when the rain starts. It would also remove any stalemates as vampires loose health SLOWLY, making them more desperate to kill people. While humans have a slight advantage making them go on the offensive.

The rain could be used to place a match on "overtime" making sure there is a definite winner etc.

Vampmaster
26th Dec 2013, 21:56
I think if rain or any other map-wide enviromental damage is included, there shouldn't be any class based entirely around it. It would suck (in the non-blood way) to have only one or two maps that the Rahabim are any good in if they're completely useless everywhere else. By all means, give them customisable abilities for that, but they should have other options or they'd just be going to waste.

I am in favour of mid-match events though. It could work like power plays and the sandstorms in Uncharted 3, where if one team is losing, some event happens where they get to even the odds.

In regards to vampires having ranged attacks and humans having melee, how about making that kind of thing a kind power weapon? To keep the asymmetrical gameplay intact, there could be spears or TK relics littered through out the level that you could only use for one or two strikes before they break. They would act as some sort of extenuating circumstances where yoiu could break the normal rules.

Vallass
27th Dec 2013, 00:26
I think if rain or any other map-wide enviromental damage is included, there shouldn't be any class based entirely around it. It would suck (in the non-blood way) to have only one or two maps that the Rahabim are any good in if they're completely useless everywhere else. By all means, give them customisable abilities for that, but they should have other options or they'd just be going to waste.

I am in favour of mid-match events though. It could work like power plays and the sandstorms in Uncharted 3, where if one team is losing, some event happens where they get to even the odds.

In regards to vampires having ranged attacks and humans having melee, how about making that kind of thing a kind power weapon? To keep the asymmetrical gameplay intact, there could be spears or TK relics littered through out the level that you could only use for one or two strikes before they break. They would act as some sort of extenuating circumstances where yoiu could break the normal rules.

It would make sense to have water on human territories, in which case the Rahab would be more useful. And Melchiam would be less so. Maybe they should make those two classes map specifics? It'd change it up a bit, and if they did the same for humans it'd make for some interesting gameplay. Sort of like how certain classes were allowed on different maps in SW:Battlefront 1&2. For instance Kamino had the jet troopers but they were absent on Hoth.
I'd almost prefer this to having all the classes on all the maps, it'd make it interesting because the map you get would provide the different strategies and combinations instead of everyone going in every time knowing exactly who they're gonna play. Maybe even have a cave system where the Razielim wouldn't be worth a damn, and some high building maps where you CAN touch the ground, but most don't, so the Turelim would be almost pointless in terms of charging, groundpound, or brute force. I dunno, I just like the idea of maps changing the class rosters.

As to the mid-match events, that sounds great as long as it's not a guaranteed rebound win every time. When LoL started out they had a bad time of mid way through games characters getting so powerful that even when down to their final turrets they'd turn around and win in one fell swoop. As fun as it was to be on the rebounding team, being on the winning side and losing in all of 2 minutes was enough to make SOOO many people rage quit. We all know there will be balance issues starting out, but if they do a mid-match event lets make sure it can work out for either team.

Your ranged/melee switch up for short duration's is probably one of the best ideas I've heard yet on the subject. Swords, spears, etc for humans that are brittle but usable and glyph relics that have a few uses for vamps before crumbling would be amazing things to see in game. If they did these though, personally I'd prefer they didn't have some aura around them and show up on the map. Have them from the get go or have them randomly spawn, but lets not make it obvious they exist, so we don't get into a race for the power-ups every game.

Sluagh
9th Jan 2014, 13:25
It would make sense to have water on human territories, in which case the Rahab would be more useful. And Melchiam would be less so. Maybe they should make those two classes map specifics? It'd change it up a bit, and if they did the same for humans it'd make for some interesting gameplay. Sort of like how certain classes were allowed on different maps in SW:Battlefront 1&2. For instance Kamino had the jet troopers but they were absent on Hoth.
I'd almost prefer this to having all the classes on all the maps, it'd make it interesting because the map you get would provide the different strategies and combinations instead of everyone going in every time knowing exactly who they're gonna play. Maybe even have a cave system where the Razielim wouldn't be worth a damn, and some high building maps where you CAN touch the ground, but most don't, so the Turelim would be almost pointless in terms of charging, groundpound, or brute force. I dunno, I just like the idea of maps changing the class rosters.



I think that having some classes that are map specific is quite a good idea. And it supports the idea of different troops being deployed in different areas and of a wider strategy being employed by the two sides. Although on that point - I suppose the things that are going on in Nosgoth arenas are really only skirmishes in a much wider war. Having the Rahabim in a few specific watery areas would be great, maybe with somekind of "drown" move. Could you equally limit the human Red Sister of Anacrothe by the fight taking place in a gaseous swamp (like the one within the Termagant Forest), where it was too dangerous to have fireballs spewing everywhere?

"The Ignis Fatuus lights the path to Hell, nobleman. Your path." BOOM!

MordaxPraetorian
4th Mar 2014, 23:06
What's all this talk of Rahabim vampires being difficult to come up with ideas for?

My friend and I were talking about this a few months ago and came up with something fairly quickly

The Rahabim in SR weren't only defined by the Water/Sunlight thing, they also Spat Acid Balls

There are a lot of ways to play that, burning acid is good for zoning, and different types of acid could create smoke screens or burning mist

The odd ranged attack is OK, the Reavers already have grenades and provided the acid spit effects are kept mostly support-ish I think it'd be a good addition to the game

Picture the Rahabim as a contrast to the other vampire classes, shambling around more slowly covered by heavy robes to shield against the sun, more durable than other vampires because of the scaled skin and protective robes, when they run out of hit points the robe tears open, revealing the creature underneath for a moment before it bursts into flames

MrGoldteddy
4th Mar 2014, 23:40
the whole bursting into flames wouldn't really work because the sun is blocked by the Smoke stackes the vampires create to blot out the sun, which is also shown in the game, as it looks like there is an eclipe when you look at it.
But the whole idea of Rahabim being able to shot "liquids" of some sort sounds interesting, but like you mentioned the Reavers already have alot of area denying tools. . . .so maybe give them a Bola like ability that roots a human!? Reavers throw down poison bombs, Rahabim roots a human inside = Teamwork :D

MordaxPraetorian
4th Mar 2014, 23:50
The sun was blocked out in SR just the same, that didn't stop the Rahabim bursting into flame at the slightest touch, they were just that vulnerable to it

I can't see the Rahabim as being a clan in anything other than very precarious position at this stage in history, we know they had the weakness to Sunlight first and then overcame it with the resistance to Water, but based on the evolution of the other clans they're probably in that "Weak to Sunlight and looking for a solution" stage

I can imagine Rahab becoming weaker to the sun with each evolution, living underground somewhere and desperately trying to find an answer. He probably wouldn't want to send troops to participate in the war, it would reveal his clan's weakness after-all, but the other clans would certainly pressure him into sending some warriors, they might be surprised by what they got

As for the "grenades already do this" thing, theres already overlap between the clans, the Reavers have the best leaps but that doesn't stop the Tyrants having their jump, likewise the Rahabim would have the best support projectiles but that wouldn't stop the Reavers having their grenades

Obisher
5th Mar 2014, 01:37
About the sun vulnerability. Is it possible that the Rahabim at first weren't so sensitive to sunlight, but it was caused afterwards by their devolution? If I remember correctly from SR, even the adult Rahabim would burst into flames if they were outside, while all the other adult vampires were able to walk outside.

So my guess is... as they were getting more immune to water, they became less tolerant of the sun. So in the Nosgoth era, they probably could walk outside, but as they were more devolving, followed by developing water immunity, they started to lose that little tolerance to sunlight they had before.

Anyway, I believe that devolution caused the vampires to lose a lot of their skills and they retained only few of those skills. For example, the Dumahim in Nosgoth are able to pounce great distances and have some ability to teleport, while those in SR don't have them. Same goes for Zephonim. In Nosgoth we see them as mind manipulators, yet they show no such abilities in SR.

Nebbel
5th Mar 2014, 18:24
According to Daniel Cabuco, the Rahabim are described as "artisans, explorers, special forces". Apart from the support spitting projectiles, that'd work wonders in teamwork with the Reaver's grenades I must admit, they could have some sort of sweetspot detector, kind of like a scan ability to make attacks against human targets more effective for a limited period of time. They could also serve as a sniping class with their spit, meant to be concealed on the roofs, slow of movement as the OP suggested and thusly not very good in close quarters but deadly at a distance.

Their class name could be Schemer as they scout the territory and have to use strategy for their skills to function properly.

And if we go even further, in the eventual case of the devs including a map with water sources, they could snipe from underwater, as Cabuco described them as archerfish-like as well; their major flaw, slow movement, could be compensated underwater, managing to create good ambushes in certain maps.

Vampmaster
5th Mar 2014, 18:51
According to Daniel Cabuco, the Rahabim are described as "artisans, explorers, special forces". Apart from the support spitting projectiles, that'd work wonders in teamwork with the Reaver's grenades I must admit, they could have some sort of sweetspot detector, kind of like a scan ability to make attacks against human targets more effective for a limited period of time. They could also serve as a sniping class with their spit, meant to be concealed on the roofs, slow of movement as the OP suggested and thusly not very good in close quarters but deadly at a distance.

Their class name could be Schemer as they scout the territory and have to use strategy for their skills to function properly.

And if we go even further, in the eventual case of the devs including a map with water sources, they could snipe from underwater, as Cabuco described them as archerfish-like as well; their major flaw, slow movement, could be compensated underwater, managing to create good ambushes in certain maps.

That would make the Rahabim a map-specific class and break the ranged vs melee rule. The devs don't want to have to do either of those, because it would completely unbalance the game.

ParadoxicalOmen
5th Mar 2014, 19:15
I really hope the devs find a way though this...
Rahab was my favorite boss, as he seemed to be the most wise and self-aware of all the clan leaders....so consequently, i really like the rahabim.

XJadeDragoonX
5th Mar 2014, 23:36
Im sure they will find a way to portray each of the clans accurately and usefully. I recently just beat soul reaver and the Rahabim were easily one of the hardest troops. Not only did they spit their water balls but they attacked faster than every other clan for some reason repeatedly biting at you. So theyre much more savage than even the spawn of Dumah. I dont see them being some fragile class in this game. It was said they they are equally powerful in the water and on land so they shouldnt be underestimated.

AnomalyXIII
6th Mar 2014, 10:48
If I were Rahabim and called into service to fight, I would wear some sort of all concealing armor, which given how much necrotic flesh the other clans show, this would be an interesting identifier. The armor would slow them down and make it difficult to climb, however this would provide extra durability, making them ideal as a grappling tank class that could be sent in to break up tight knit human groups. Where the grappling comes in is their main method of attack, rather than being a projectile, would be to grab and literally bite the enemy with their shark-like maws, bleeding and slowing the human, and also slightly healing the Rahabim (though not as much as an outright execution. Aside from that, they could break from the mold of the other vampires and actually use a lance or spear like weapon as a gap closer.

I guess this would make the Rahabim a Dragoon class, somewhere between the Tyrant and the Reaver, but I dunno. What do you think?

Khalith
6th Mar 2014, 11:00
I read rahabim as "explorers and special forces" and my immediate thought is a scout/skirmisher type class. That is to say, a lightly armored and incredibly fast vamp that zips around the map and does hit and run attacks, the entire poison spit concept is a good one, for that my leaning is towards a choice between a single target spit that roots the target on the ground or a puddle type of ability that slows groups of humans down and prevents them from running or using their dodge roll. Then for their main ability I can imagine some type of adhesive venom they can spit at a single human that stops them from firing or using their special attacks, making them especially ideal against humans that attempt to run.

Vampmaster
6th Mar 2014, 11:09
If I were Rahabim and called into service to fight, I would wear some sort of all concealing armor, which given how much necrotic flesh the other clans show, this would be an interesting identifier. The armor would slow them down and make it difficult to climb, however this would provide extra durability, making them ideal as a grappling tank class that could be sent in to break up tight knit human groups. Where the grappling comes in is their main method of attack, rather than being a projectile, would be to grab and literally bite the enemy with their shark-like maws, bleeding and slowing the human, and also slightly healing the Rahabim (though not as much as an outright execution. Aside from that, they could break from the mold of the other vampires and actually use a lance or spear like weapon as a gap closer.

I guess this would make the Rahabim a Dragoon class, somewhere between the Tyrant and the Reaver, but I dunno. What do you think?

I don't know. I never really thought of the Rahabim as an armored class, but the grappling thing could be cool.

I also thought of how the Rahabim might have become immune to water in the first place. I remembered something from school (or I think I remember) about some types of fish secreting protective oils through their skin when adapting from salt and freshwater. Maybe something like that could work for the Rahabim. Since the oil only lasts to long, it wouldn't be a total immunity.

Also, something like that wouldn't have to be specific to water. They could use that sort of mechanism to adapt to which ever damage type was the most recent. I guess that's similar to the snake-like skin shedding I mentioned elsewhere.

Khalith
6th Mar 2014, 11:23
Reading these threads about the clans gives me another thought, give us an HD remake of soul reaver 1 with fully updated models! Those PS1 era 3d graphics did not age well.

MordaxPraetorian
7th Mar 2014, 00:38
I also thought of how the Rahabim might have become immune to water in the first place. I remembered something from school (or I think I remember) about some types of fish secreting protective oils through their skin when adapting from salt and freshwater. Maybe something like that could work for the Rahabim. Since the oil only lasts to long, it wouldn't be a total immunity.

Oooh, that's ace there must be some really nice oil secretion based abilities that would fit nicely into the game

Togglable resistance to different damage types based on oil secretion?

There has to be more that could be done with that

Lets keep the ideas coming

CountEyokir
7th Mar 2014, 00:41
A chameleon ability? Similar to the Scout's camouflage only better?

RainaAudron
7th Mar 2014, 00:50
Yeah, that´s what I suggest back then ;)

LegacyOfKayn
7th Mar 2014, 13:54
A acid wall abillity that melts away arrows,bola etc before they hit u would be nice.
Here's a little something to give u an ideea:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVuImOqcJQM
Watch the video from 4:10 to 4:20 that's the kinda of abillity i was thinking,it would be nice to block dors,to cover parteners or to defend urself...i think it's a good ideea.

3rd Apr 2014, 01:13
So I've been hearing people saying that there is no real way to implement the Rahabim in game due to the absurdity of adding water based environments and abilities into the game. I think people are focusing way too much on the final stages of the clans devolution with regard to how they should be portrayed in game here. Most of the clans havent begun to display much in the way of their trademark mutations and the way the dark gift and Nupraptors curse would eventually manifest themselves during the sr1 era. Why not show the Rahabim in their role within Kain's empire before they became dependent on their aquatic resistance?

My Thoughts: The devs have briefly touched on the different roles the various clans played within Kain's empire. I think in the course of exploring this part of the background further a class for the Rahabim could easily be justified. So I got to daydreaming and pondering the topic and this is what I came up with:

Kain's Zealots

While many of the other clans and their patriarchs vie amongst themselves for either power or glory, Rahab and his kin remain fiercely committed to Kain's vision and believe in the righteousness of their Master's rule. Having seen the many failings of human civilization at the Master's side, Kain's contempt for humanity has found in Rahab and his clan fertile ground to blossom and grow into a fierce and righteous hatred for the weak mortals who siezed stewardship of the land only to utterly fail in their new role. Disgusted by the chaos, greed, and waste of the human civilization, and the ignorant pogroms they so blindly carried out against the vampire race at the behest of their cruel and corrupt rulers, they believe utterly in the manifest destiny of their kind to dominate Nosgoth under the rightful rule of their great progenitor, Kain. Having saved them from the squalor and chaos of feeble mortality, the Rahabim are fanatically devoted to building the new era of order and glory that Kain has told them is the birthright of their kind, and there is nothing they will not sacrifice to achieve this goal.

While Rahab's elder brothers retain a greater portion of Kain's spiritual potency, apart from his favored son Raziel, there is none held closer in Kain's confidence than Rahab himself. Fully informed of Kain's destiny as the savior of Nosgoth, and the dark forces who threaten to subvert their master's course, Rahab and his clan live solely to enact the will of their Master and see his vision for Nosgoth realized, revering Kain to the point of deification. While the other clans maneuver and politick endlessly in their struggle for resources, glory and influence, even on occasion misinterpreting Kain's commandments to suit their own needs, the Rahabim follow his commands to the letter. Together with the more self centered Razielim, they serve as an effective deterrent to any clan seeking to forge a path independent of the Master's commands. Clashing at times even with the mighty Turelim, these single minded devotees hold a particular disdain for the scheming Zephonim, having openly opposed them on numerous occasions, as well as Zephon's frequent collaborator, the prideful Dumah.

As the main promoters of Kain's cult of worship among the lower orders of vampire, with the execution of the heretic Raziel, the Rahabim were briefely allied with the Zephonim in their eagerness to punish the Razielim for their percieved disloyalty, eagerly seeking to erase the stain of their great blasphemy from Kain's empire.

With Kain's disappearance and the outbreak of the Vampire Civil War, the Rahabim found themselves in an uncomfortable position. Without Kain's support, their influence and power suffered as the other clans took advantage of the new power vaccuum to act upon old grudges. The Zephonim in particular took a special delight in inflicting several stinging humiliations upon their self righteous brethren, including, in a great feat of hidden engineering, subverting the courses of several underwater rivers causing the apocalyptic flooding of the clan's capitol stronghold, with many of the clan's leadership dying in agony as the water cascaded through their halls. This massive fortress-abbey was among the most treasured works of art and architecture of Kain's dark renaissance, and was a popular site for pilgrims coming from every clan to gaze upon this formerly great monument to the glory of Kain and his most devoted son.

Now, with the resurgent threat of humanity and the new truce struck between the clans, the Rahabim have been afforded the opportunity to regroup and marshall their strength. Outraged by the unthinkable rebirth of the human slave's civilization, none are more eager to put down this rebellion and end the affront to Kain's great work. The Zealots of Clan Rahabim have taken their place in the frontlines of the vampire legions, throwing themselves with their customary reckless abandon into the thickest fighting.

Sorry for how long this was, hope some of you found it interesting. I have no particular inspiration for perks or abilities based on this background unfortunately. As an old school and die hard LOK nerd, the plot and story behind the games have always fascinated me more than the gameplay.

Khalith
3rd Apr 2014, 02:41
I really like the idea you put forth here, it is still a puzzle how exactly the drowned abbey became drowned and I hope if/when we ever get Rahabim that issue will be talked about in the blog entry. We know how Rahab and his brood eventually overcame their weakness via exposure to water and drinking blood so them reclaiming the abbey after losing it in that way could certainly be a victory for them with a weakness overcome and a home reclaimed at the same time. I really like your write up here by the way, if this were posted as a part of the lore right now I could definitely believe it as canon, the revelation about Rahab's zealous obedience to Kain really gave a new angle to the backstory of the game for me. I think back to the battle that Rahab has with Raziel and I can't help but laugh at the fact that Rahab could be considered the only that wasn't really cool with wiping out Raziel's clan.

As for the Rahabim abilities, I've spoken my own ideas before but I'll add them to this thread as well. The concept of their vulnerability to the bright sunlight of nosgoth could definitely be worked in, I think of the Rahabim as wearing hooded leather armor that covers their features and shields them from the feeble rays of nosgoth's sun that still damages them so greatly. Their lore describes them as special forces, my immediate thought for them is make the Rahabim a skirmisher type, lower hp than the others but significantly faster. For abilities, given their snakelike appearance and projectile spit in the future, I could see them as using a venom/poison/goo spit of some kind, a pool that immobilizes or slows humans or some sort of sticky goo that jams weapons for a brief amount of time.

3rd Apr 2014, 03:40
Thanks for your feedback I'm flattered you liked some of these ideas. The drowned abbey thing just kinda came to me. It was always my favorite environment in sr1, it just had that haunting blanket of melancholy hanging over it. I like your idea about them being hooded or robed to limit exposure to sunlight too. Maybe adults would be able to go without them for the evolved skin?

Khalith
3rd Apr 2014, 04:35
Thanks for your feedback I'm flattered you liked some of these ideas. The drowned abbey thing just kinda came to me. It was always my favorite environment in sr1, it just had that haunting blanket of melancholy hanging over it. I like your idea about them being hooded or robed to limit exposure to sunlight too. Maybe adults would be able to go without them for the evolved skin?

I would have to say no on the evolved skin, it's been made pretty clear that the Rahab's extreme sensitivity to the light is inherited by his brood and something that only grew worse as the clan evolved then devolved. I would see their face grow more serpent like, a much larger robe/hood to cover the cobra-esque part of their head that's starting to form (I can't remember the exact name of that part on a cobra off the top of my head), and webbing on their hands or toes, scales that could be seen on the body and maybe hints of fins on the arms/legs.

The_Hylden
3rd Apr 2014, 05:26
They wind up looking like fish, sharks specifically, not serpents.

Khalith
3rd Apr 2014, 05:45
They wind up looking like fish, sharks specifically, not serpents.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120826083846/legacyofkain/images/8/83/SR1-Enemies-Rahabim-Fledgling.jpg

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120826083912/legacyofkain/images/d/df/SR1-Enemies-Rahabim-Adult.jpg

I can sort of see the shark, but the head on them immediately makes me think of cobras.

The_Hylden
3rd Apr 2014, 11:30
I can see the flap of flesh they have on the sides of their head evoking the cobra thing a bit, sure. Their face, in general, still says shark to me, as does the pattern of color of their bodies.

I believe the flap of flesh is probably trying to indicate a fin-like structure in the water, since their arms and legs are not fins yet. Kind of like a manta ray. Perhaps the hood also shields them from the light as best it can. Direct sunlight still scorches them, no matter what, but this perhaps helps with the diffused light in the water.

Fathomir
3rd Apr 2014, 11:37
This idea is fantastic.

The Rahabim with their utter devotion to Kain would never let an attempted resurrection of the human society just slip by without incident - even if there were other clans working to fight against them. The hooded/cloaked idea is also a good way to a) uniquely separate them from the other vampires and b) allow them mobility in sunlight even with their sensitivity. I vote yes for this, whole-heartedly.

In terms of appearance, I always believed them to be more snake/lizard-like rather than that of an actual aquatic animal.

Vampmaster
3rd Apr 2014, 11:40
They wind up looking like fish, sharks specifically, not serpents.

I think people have been suggesting the cobra (reptile) thing as an evolutionary midpoint between human (mammal) and fish. It sounds reasonable considering the problems with including swimming or full water immunity in the game, although there are plenty of other options.


This idea is fantastic.

The Rahabim with their utter devotion to Kain would never let an attempted resurrection of the human society just slip by without incident - even if there were other clans working to fight against them. The hooded/cloaked idea is also a good way to a) uniquely separate them from the other vampires and b) allow them mobility in sunlight even with their sensitivity. I vote yes for this, whole-heartedly.

In terms of appearance, I always believed them to be more snake/lizard-like rather than that of an actual aquatic animal.

One thing in the original post I disagreed with though, is the part about them working with the Zephonim. Rahab was loyal to Kain, but Zephon would stab anyone in the back if it suited him. Rahab was always the smart one or at least placed high value on having information. He would be unlikely to trust Zephon and IMO he would always be the one to see through his manipulations.

Lord_Aevum
3rd Apr 2014, 12:50
Just one point about the backstory:


The Zephonim in particular took a special delight in inflicting several stinging humiliations upon their self righteous brethren, including, in a great feat of hidden engineering, subverting the courses of several underwater rivers causing the apocalyptic flooding of the clan's capitol stronghold, with many of the clan's leadership dying in agony as the water cascaded through their halls. This massive fortress-abbey was among the most treasured works of art and architecture of Kain's dark renaissance, and was a popular site for pilgrims coming from every clan to gaze upon this formerly great monument to the glory of Kain and his most devoted son.

The Drowned Abbey was strictly of human origin, not a vampire monument. It's indicated that it was flooded even before the Rahabim chose to settle there. I can see some interesting plot being hatched in relation to how it came to be submerged, but keep in mind that the Elder God chooses to blame this event on Nosgoth's decline and natural ecological cataclysms.

Otherwise, this backstory is surprisingly well written. I like that someone else gets the vibe that Rahab would be Kain's closest and most loyal confidant, despite his lower rank in the empire hierarchy.

Plonker2236
5th Apr 2014, 15:03
Okay, so I've read everything others have said in here, some awesome ideas knocking about, and very lore-friendly ones, too.

So we know that the lieutenants, and therefore their clans, gained power based on the order in which they were created, with Raziel the first gaining the most of Kain's power, and Melciah the last gaining the least. The lieutenants were created in the following order: Raziel, Turel, Dumah, Rahab, Zephon, Melciah. This means Rahab, and therefore his children would be only slightly less gifted than Dumah and his offspring. We also know that the Rahabim will eventually turn into horrible reptilian/aquatic creatures with cobra-like hoods behind their heads. They will become immune to the acidic effect water has on most Nosgothic vampires, but so sensitive to sunlight that even the smoke-blotted sun of future Nosgoth will immolate them. Lastly, they develop the ability to spit what is described as a bubble of 'foul water', presumably some sort of corrosive/venemous mixture they secrete.

We also get the impression from what we know about Rahab, that he was perhaps more loyal to Kain than any of the other lieutenants. He is apparently the only lieutenant Kain bothered to visit during his time spent skipping forwards through time (the fact that Kain had not devolved when we meet him in SR1, and that he has disappeared in the Nosgoth era pretty much confirm this is what happened). Rahab is fanatically loyal to Kain. Where the other lieutenants fear and respect him, Rahab worships him.

Due to the difficulty of implementing water mechanics into the game, it is unlikely that we'll have a Rahabim class that can lurk in pools of water to ambush their prey, cool as that would be. But what aspects of their character/future do we still have to work with?

1 - Their increased weakness to sunlight.
2 - Their eventual appearance as scaly amphibious freaks.
3 - Their insane devotion to Kain and his ideals
4 - Their ability to spit venemous/corrosive liquids at long range.

So, based on these, I've come up with the following bit of fanfic (for fun), and some ideas for how the class might work in-game. The stuff others have already said, and the 'zealot' idea really got me thinking like twisted battle-priests or like space marine Chaplain sort of things.

Ever has Rahab been the most devoted of Kain's six vampire lieutenants, and his clan are no different, kept tightly under control by Rahab. The fourth-born lieutenant has instilled in his clan unshakeable faith in the superiority of the vampiric race, and their divine right to rule over Nosgoth and its peoples, with Kain as their emperor. Rahab is one of the weaker lieutenants, and his children are likewise less gifted with Kain's divinity. Rahab, obsessed with pleasing his emperor, was driven to improve himself and his clan to match his older brethren. Taking inspiration from Zephon, they began to experiment on themselves, but they sought not a way to accelerate their evolution. Instead, Rahab sought to harden them against the weaknesses inherent in all vampires. If he could develop immunity to water, he and his children would be able to go into places no other vampires could, and become immeasurably valuable to the empire.

Through slowly increasing exposure to water, consuming blood to regenerate the damage it inflicted upon their undead hides, the Rahabim eventually became able to dive deep underwater and explore places no other vampires could. They discovered artifacts and treasures, found secret waterways allowing them to move around Nosgoth unobserved. But this time spent in dark waterways beneath the earth began to sensitize them to even the weakened sunlight of Nosgoth. To walk unshrouded on the surface would weaken their powers and sap their strength, prolonged exposure began to blister the skin painfully. When the other clans began to war amongst themselves, Rahab condemned it as madness, his clan fighting only to protect their territory. When the human rebellion began, Rahab was torn between happiness and fury. On the one hand, Kain's children had ceased their abomination of a civil war. But on the other, the humans had risen up and dealt several damaging blows to their empire. Rahab ordered his Zealots into action as part of the new allied vampire legions.

The Zealots are religious fanatics, venerating Kain almost like a god, and believing with ultimate conviction that their cause is divine. To fight on land in the daylight, the Rahabim are forced to wear heavy robes and hoods to protect them from the weakening effects of the sun. They take responsibility for the morale of the vampire troops, screaming litanies of hatred and proclaiming the superiority of their race. They are more fragile than most other vampires due to their aversion to sunlight, but make up for that shortcoming in other ways. The Rahabim have developed the ability to spit a corrosive venom that is lethal to most creatures in strong enough doses. Zealots have trained themselves to spit these noxious projectiles over considerable distances, blinding or weakening humans before the vampires close in to finish them off. Rightfully, the humans fear the sight of the Zealots' dark robes and the sound of their fanatical chants.

So, in terms of an actual game class, I'm thinking the Zealots are more of a support class, with less purely-offensive abilities. Here's a rundown of what I was thinking:

- Slightly less health than other vamp classes

- Special ability is a poison spit attack that stuns opponents and causes minor damage-over-time, alternate abilities could include a non-stun, more damaging acidic spit and a blinding spit attack which does no damage, but blinds a single target temporarily.

- Standard primary ability would be a battlecry which temporarily buffs the damage of all vampires in range very slightly. Alternate abilties could include a shout that decreases weapon damage for humans in range temporarily, and the ability to heal a single friendly target with a deployable blood vessel that heals the first person to interact with it, this would need a long cooldown, and should heal slowly over time, not in a burst like feeding does.

- Secondary ability default could be some kind of righteous fury that boosts their own melee damage briefly, with alternates being an ability that provides a stun/bola escape that does NOT prevent them from attacking, representing their determination to annihilate the rebellion, and perhaps some kind of war horn that increases damage resistance for all vampires in range temporarily.

These abilties could be set up to create a pure support character, who buffs/heals his fellow vampires and/or debuffs enemies, or a more hybrid support/assault character who uses offensive abilties in combination with his buffs/healing powers. This brings a number of skills to the vampire faction not presented by any other classes currently known, including the Deceiver. What do you guys think?

Vampmaster
6th Apr 2014, 00:18
The devs are never going to go with long ranged attacks for the vampires or melee for humans. It would kill the melee vs ranged feature which is one of the main selling points that seperate it from other TvT games.

Wearing thick robes isn't really fitting for a race that's trying to adapt to water. It would only keep water away from them instead of forcing them to adapt to it and they'd have a hard time swimming in one of those cloaks. Also, Rahab seems a bit too smart to blindly follow Kain as a god. If anything, he'd understand better than the others that Kain's success as emporor depends on the advisedness of his actions and not his divinity. As Kain's confidant, he probably would know that Kain was human once (although I'm pretty sure all the Lieutenants did).

EDIT: I didn't explain that too well. I shouldn't post when I'm tired.

calypso-694
6th Apr 2014, 04:07
this is actually really freaking cool. I like all the ideas. but yes Rahabim would have to be melee somehow. the support buffs and debuffs could work though. the hoods I like but we already have the upcoming zephonim that are a covereeld in creepy masks and scientist type robes style wise. I could picture the rahabim maybe wearing welding goggles ala Riddick to protect there eyes and give that big bulgy fish eyed look a bit to foreshadow their change. Perhaps clothing wise kind of like the human scout class only darker blue leathers with not hoods but bandanas. something tight but light to keep them agile. picture road warrior mad max stuff. only aquatic themed.

Gryregaest
6th Apr 2014, 05:02
The poison thing could work, just probably not as a spitting attack. I can't think of a way to work that in which wouldn't just be like Choking Haze or Air Strike again, which already sort of blur the line with ranged melee.

Instead, I think maybe an ability that renders the Rahabim's melee attacks poisonous for a short duration, creating a damage-over-time effect. This could be swapped out for something which has a status effect instead of damage, like slowing movement or attack speed.

Other abilities don't necessarily have to involve the water resistance, but I was thinking about it and there might be ways to bring it in which don't involve them actually going into water. Maybe they can make use of certain substances or magics which would be harmful to other vampires due to being heavily water based.

Maybe an ability in which they coat themselves in something that makes them temporarily immune or resistant to fire or poison effects from the Flame Wall/Flamethrower/Toxic Mist/Poison Bola abilities. Sort of like wetting your clothes before running into a burning building. Alternatively, this could maybe be swapped out for something to temporarily make use of human healing methods in terms of the Healing Mist or the Supply Stations.

PencileyePirate
16th Apr 2014, 20:33
Original SR1 Rahabim concept art ...

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226151435/legacyofkain/images/d/db/SR1-Character-Rahab-Ayala-Aluka011.jpg

Vampmaster
16th Apr 2014, 21:36
That's 700 years later. They shouldn't be that devolved yet.


Maybe an ability in which they coat themselves in something that makes them temporarily immune or resistant to fire or poison effects from the Flame Wall/Flamethrower/Toxic Mist/Poison Bola abilities. Sort of like wetting your clothes before running into a burning building. Alternatively, this could maybe be swapped out for something to temporarily make use of human healing methods in terms of the Healing Mist or the Supply Stations.

I mentioned an ability in the beta forums called purge ailment that could clear away fire and poison clouds and things like that.

Keitaro767
29th Apr 2014, 06:17
Well, one thread is dedicated for Melchiah's sons, why not also start for Rahab? :D

I like the one suggested by the user Persiphas (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/member.php?u=38481):


"The Rahabim could use abilities like spitting a sticky slime in mid-range to slow down escaping humans or vomiting acid on close-range targets. Since they are supposed to be somewhat like a shark (if I remember correctly) there could also be an ability which lets them smell blood (for example an ability that marks enemies for the Rahabim if they are below 50% life and if the Rahabim is close to a low-life enemy his movement speed is slightly improved...)"

Although the blood sense is a bit OP (IMO), it's as close as possible to a suitable Rahabim skillset. After all, they are amphibious vampires, and any water-related (or shark-related) attacks are a MAJOR possibility.

How about razor fins (sounds corny, I know, but that would emphasize their melee capabilities).

Feel free to share, and comment to this thread. Who knows? Maybe our brainstorming sessions might take notice by the developers :)

Ruevergne
29th Apr 2014, 22:13
Well, one thread is dedicated for Melchiah's sons, why not also start for Rahab? :D

Absolutely.


Although the blood sense is a bit OP (IMO), it's as close as possible to a suitable Rahabim skillset. After all, they are amphibious vampires, and any water-related (or shark-related) attacks are a MAJOR possibility.

I’m not too convinced by the vomiting acid and the blood sense as it is described there is probably excessively powerful. The blood sense could be envisioned differently though, so that its power is limited. The acid could likewise be re-envisioned: the Rahabim were special forces and there’s no reason they couldn’t employ poisons. They need not even produce them within their own bodies.


How about razor fins (sounds corny, I know, but that would emphasize their melee capabilities).

I’m not keen on this one, as I think the claws suffice, but we do need something relating to their evolution. I like the idea of being able to drown, or partially drown your opponents. Failing that, they could even choke opponents. Perhaps swimming, or limited exposure to wading in water could be considered.

Gugulug5000
30th Apr 2014, 00:37
This actually isn't the first thread dedicated to the Rahabim, there's at least one already:

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8489

It may have some other ideas you might like in it. I like the ideas you've already mentioned, as well as some of the ones mentioned in my link above, and I think the Rahabim have quite a bit of potential. I would really like to see the Rahabim be the next vampire class to come out, but all of the current evidence points to the Melchahim instead, but as long as the Rahabim come out eventually, then I'm happy. They're mentioned as special forces by Daniel Cabuco, which seems like it may be a little difficult to incorporate. Hit and run tactics could be tough since the Rahabim ended up so slow in Soul Reaver, but the acid ideas could be quite fun to use in the game.

PencileyePirate
30th Apr 2014, 07:07
That's 700 years later. They shouldn't be that devolved yet.

That's true, but if Rahabim appear in game I think the original artwork would serve as an excellent inspiration.

Reidbynature
30th Apr 2014, 07:33
Except the one Gugulug5000 linked to has two pages whereas the one you linked to just has the one.

Ruevergne
30th Apr 2014, 11:58
This actually isn't the first thread dedicated to the Rahabim, there's at least one already:

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8489&highlight=rahabim

It may have some other ideas you might like in it. I like the ideas you've already mentioned, as well as some of the ones mentioned in my link above, and I think the Rahabim have quite a bit of potential. I would really like to see the Rahabim be the next vampire class to come out, but all of the current evidence points to the Melchahim instead, but as long as the Rahabim come out eventually, then I'm happy. They're mentioned as special forces by Daniel Cabuco, which seems like it may be a little difficult to incorporate. Hit and run tactics could be tough since the Rahabim ended up so slow in Soul Reaver, but the acid ideas could be quite fun to use in the game.

There's also this one (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=12061&highlight=rahabim), which has more discussion.

I don’t think they would have to be that slow on land just yet. An idea I have seen alluded to on one of the other threads is sunlight protection (think sombrero for comedy mod). This made me think about the artisan nature of the Rahabim. Since they are master of creating things, perhaps some of their focus should be on weapons, poison, shields and other objects they can use in battle.

Thanks for the links. Is there a moderator who can merge these? I’m getting confused with regards to which one I am reading. Or are the threads too extensive to merge?


Wearing thick robes isn't really fitting for a race that's trying to adapt to water. It would only keep water away from them instead of forcing them to adapt to it and they'd have a hard time swimming in one of those cloaks. Also, Rahab seems a bit too smart to blindly follow Kain as a god. If anything, he'd understand better than the others that Kain's success as emporor depends on the advisedness of his actions and not his divinity. As Kain's confidant, he probably would know that Kain was human once (although I'm pretty sure all the Lieutenants did).

Wearing thick robes would only be necessary in the daytime and on land. Anything underground or at night would allow them to uncover. Could make for interesting model variations… or it could annoy the developers by consuming excessive time… I don’t know.

While the artisan Rahabim were indeed smart, they were devout. These traits are not always separate. Think back to Rahab’s admonishment of Raziel: “You would do well to mind your blasphemous tongue!”.


While Rahab's elder brothers retain a greater portion of Kain's spiritual potency, apart from his favored son Raziel, there is none held closer in Kain's confidence than Rahab himself. Fully informed of Kain's destiny as the savior of Nosgoth, and the dark forces who threaten to subvert their master's course, Rahab and his clan live solely to enact the will of their Master and see his vision for Nosgoth realized, revering Kain to the point of deification.

However, I don't think Kain would have given away this much information to any of his lieutenants. Though he did divulge information regarding Rahab's death to him.

Keitaro767
6th Dec 2014, 09:09
But, shouldn't we focus on a bigger picture here? Remember guys, that not all stages have a water source, so drowning might not be a viable choice. I think the developers are focusing on over-specializing the vampires. The Summoners of Melchiah now focuses on necromancy and magic, so we should over-specialize the sons/daughters or Rahab as well.

So far, the specializations are:
Deceivers - Recon
Reavers - Assault
Tyrants - Tank
Sentinels - Surveillance and Air Strike
Summoners - Demolitions

Sorry for the terms used, but every time I play as a vampire, I see them in a militaristic manner (kinda reminds me of Operation: Raccoon City) LOL.

I saw this post:





Originally Posted by Keitaro767
Although the blood sense is a bit OP (IMO), it's as close as possible to a suitable Rahabim skillset. After all, they are amphibious vampires, and any water-related (or shark-related) attacks are a MAJOR possibility.

Originally posted by Ruevergne (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/member.php?u=42648)
I’m not too convinced by the vomiting acid and the blood sense as it is described there is probably excessively powerful. The blood sense could be envisioned differently though, so that its power is limited. The acid could likewise be re-envisioned: the Rahabim were special forces and there’s no reason they couldn’t employ poisons. They need not even produce them within their own bodies.

I read this one thoroughly, and I agree. Maybe acid is overrated, but so are poisons. And as I stated before, the blood sense is really OP (like Bloodseeker OP).




Originally Posted by Keitaro767
How about razor fins (sounds corny, I know, but that would emphasize their melee capabilities).

Originally posted by Ruevergne
I’m not keen on this one, as I think the claws suffice, but we do need something relating to their evolution. I like the idea of being able to drown, or partially drown your opponents. Failing that, they could even choke opponents. Perhaps swimming, or limited exposure to wading in water could be considered.

As I have stated earlier, not all stages have a water source. One stage has a measly little fountain. So drowning? Not so much IMO.

For revisions? Any sea creature defenses will do (except squid ink... it doesn't fit in :mad2:) How about traps that allow for a free hit? Like slipping on the ground? Or getting stuck in place? I can't really think of any new ideas right now, cause I'm stuck on my school paperwork, but anyways, I do not intend to insult anyone, and if I do, I am sorry (I'm so, like, defensive? :whistle:).

Final note? I would want the representative of clan Rahabim to be female as well, just to even out and keep up with the human populace. :D

Vampmaster
6th Dec 2014, 09:25
Any sea creature defenses will do (except squid ink... it doesn't fit in :mad2:) How about traps that allow for a free hit? Like slipping on the ground? Or getting stuck in place?

Sticky hagfish slime. ;)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb2EOP3ohnE

Or how about this:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/0305/04-glow-04.html

Edit: Found a better one. Not a shrimp this time:
http://animals.io9.com/what-kind-of-demon-sorcery-created-this-laser-spitting-1631483648

Sluagh
6th Dec 2014, 14:56
Boosting other vamps doesn't fit in too well with the lore (they all seem a bit "in it for themselves"), but would something that helps other team-mates be useful? (especially with how everyone complains about how underpowered vamps are at high level play). Maybe it could be some kind of "schooling" based ability like certain types of fishies. Sounds hellishly complex though. Maybe they are quite "team player" ish for vamps, but some of the boosts/buffs they give mean you actually end up stealing kills. I can imagine the angered team chat...


I can see the flap of flesh they have on the sides of their head evoking the cobra thing a bit, sure. Their face, in general, still says shark to me, as does the pattern of color of their bodies.

I believe the flap of flesh is probably trying to indicate a fin-like structure in the water, since their arms and legs are not fins yet. Kind of like a manta ray. Perhaps the hood also shields them from the light as best it can. Direct sunlight still scorches them, no matter what, but this perhaps helps with the diffused light in the water.

I like the general idea of this too.

reybag
11th Dec 2014, 02:18
The rahabim character should be female and also her dialogue should include not only a " For the rahabim!!!" like the other clans but also it should include a " For Kain!!!" to show the loyalty to Kain which is a Rahab characteristic

Sluagh
11th Dec 2014, 02:20
FOR NEMOOOO!!!!

Don't forget that one.

ParadoxicalOmen
16th Dec 2014, 01:16
I think that some ideas here are too focus on the fully devolved Rahabim from SR1. Things like water immunity and acid spit for example, wouldn't be the case for Nosgoth...
At least the way i see it, they haven't the time to be fully immune to water, or to have water/acid spit. To me its the same as Turelim's TK...they still havent (d)evolved to that point yet. Most vamps are still fledgelings, hence their human-ish appearance (5 fingers, etc).

Would be interesting if the evolved Rahabim skin would have water immunity though, while fledglings only have water resistance...

OBS: someone mentioned fountains in the maps, but if i recall correctly they are blood fountains...no water in them (gonna check next time i play)

GenFeelGood
16th Dec 2014, 03:43
I'd actually like it if they utilized some form of Kain's Mist Form, as a precursor to developing their immunity to water.

http://www.nosgoth.net/Defiance/dialogue/BO758.JPG

Keitaro767
16th Dec 2014, 04:59
I really like the proposed background story of the Zealots. It's completely fleshed out, but IMO, it gives away too many details on how they should be played.


Originally posted by Plonker2236

Ever has Rahab been the most devoted of Kain's six vampire lieutenants, and his clan are no different, kept tightly under control by Rahab. The fourth-born lieutenant has instilled in his clan unshakeable faith in the superiority of the vampiric race, and their divine right to rule over Nosgoth and its peoples, with Kain as their emperor. Rahab is one of the weaker lieutenants, and his children are likewise less gifted with Kain's divinity. Rahab, obsessed with pleasing his emperor, was driven to improve himself and his clan to match his older brethren. Taking inspiration from Zephon, they began to experiment on themselves, but they sought not a way to accelerate their evolution. Instead, Rahab sought to harden them against the weaknesses inherent in all vampires. If he could develop immunity to water, he and his children would be able to go into places no other vampires could, and become immeasurably valuable to the empire.

Through slowly increasing exposure to water, consuming blood to regenerate the damage it inflicted upon their undead hides, the Rahabim eventually became able to dive deep underwater and explore places no other vampires could. They discovered artifacts and treasures, found secret waterways allowing them to move around Nosgoth unobserved. But this time spent in dark waterways beneath the earth began to sensitize them to even the weakened sunlight of Nosgoth. To walk unshrouded on the surface would weaken their powers and sap their strength, prolonged exposure began to blister the skin painfully. When the other clans began to war amongst themselves, Rahab condemned it as madness, his clan fighting only to protect their territory. When the human rebellion began, Rahab was torn between happiness and fury. On the one hand, Kain's children had ceased their abomination of a civil war. But on the other, the humans had risen up and dealt several damaging blows to their empire. Rahab ordered his Zealots into action as part of the new allied vampire legions.

The Zealots are religious fanatics, venerating Kain almost like a god, and believing with ultimate conviction that their cause is divine. To fight on land in the daylight, the Rahabim are forced to wear heavy robes and hoods to protect them from the weakening effects of the sun. They take responsibility for the morale of the vampire troops, screaming litanies of hatred and proclaiming the superiority of their race. They are more fragile than most other vampires due to their aversion to sunlight, but make up for that shortcoming in other ways. The Rahabim have developed the ability to spit a corrosive venom that is lethal to most creatures in strong enough doses. Zealots have trained themselves to spit these noxious projectiles over considerable distances, blinding or weakening humans before the vampires close in to finish them off. Rightfully, the humans fear the sight of the Zealots' dark robes and the sound of their fanatical chants.


But, as stated by someone here, heavy robes aren't seem fitting for them -- for fledglings anyway. I think the robes will be more suitable for the evolved Rahabim skin. How about we call them Sirens?

GenFeelGood
16th Dec 2014, 05:33
I'd like a long, hooded, highwayman's coat as opposed to robes; but only for the evolved skin. The fledgling have around as much time to be out in the open without the need for coverings as Rahab did; and (assuming all lieutenants were raised in 1 sitting) he had at least a 1000 years of being able to stand exposed to the sun, with the same degree of covering as the other lieutenants (as seen in the Soul Reaver Intro).

Vampmaster
16th Dec 2014, 11:24
Heavy robes would only restrict their movement and make them sink in the water. Especially if they were only just adapting to it. It's also out of character for them to hide from a weakness rather than adapt to it. Their strengths should be their defining attributes, not their weaknesses. Sure they might not have fully adapted to water yet, but adaption is something they should be fully committed to, even it it means putting up with the odd singe/splash.

Personally, I think as Rahab as the most intellectual of the Lieutenants. He mentioned blasphemy only once, but said a lot more of overcoming limitations and gave good reasons for his loyalty to Kain besides religious dogma. All the Lieutenants believed themselves and Kain to be the Dark Gods.

GenFeelGood
16th Dec 2014, 21:47
One alternative to using heavy garments to protect the evolved Rahabim from the sun is the use of a form of sunblock. Perhaps they develop a substance they coat themselves in that blocks the rays of the sun from their skin; and as they devolved they lost the mental faculties to continue producing it. They would still require some form of covering for their head.

Vampmaster
18th Dec 2014, 14:10
I don't think it should matter too much. Raziel says all fledglings are devastated by sunlight's touch and the developers have said it's fledglings we're playing in Nosgoth (except for the evolved skins), so the Rahabim don't really need to be be any more vulnerable than the rest of the classes. It's simply a case of them not building up a resistance due to the shade that living under water provides. If they're not fully immune to water yet, they'd still be living pretty close to the surface.

I like the look of the highwayman's coat (it looks really gothic, which Nosgoth needs more of ;)), but it still looks restrictive (albeit less than robes would) on their evolution, and abilities they might have. Plus, it covers up whatever scary features they might have. I guess maybe it could work if they could throw off the coat when doing some sort of special move and they you see the scaly monster underneath (Rahab did have small scales even before Raziel was thown into the abyss).

You said they shouldn't have started to devolve if Rahab was made a vampire after the others were, but remember it's the younger Lieutenants that mutate first because they have less of Kains soul with which to resist the effects of the curse. All the Lieutenants were already showing the very first signs of mutation in the Soul Reaver 1 into, so 300 years later their offspring should easily be showing a few. By the time Raziel emerges from the abyss, even fledglings are severely mutated (the evolutionary time limits seem to break down, it's complicated), so there's no need tor the vampires in Nosgoth (game) to look 100% human. That's something that annoyed be a bit with the Turelim's ears, since they were his first sign.

Anyway, another idea I have was what if the Rahabim had sort of matted their hair into the hood as some way of protecting themselves from the sun? After evolution, it could have fused and toughened much like how Vorador's beard eventually became spikes from his chin. Maybe they'd put some sort of chemical in it and stick it to their backs as protection.

Since you mentioned sunblock, that reminds me of something I said earlier in the thread some types of fish secreting protective oils through their skin when adapting from salt and freshwater. Maybe something like that could work for the Rahabim. Since the oil only lasts to long, it wouldn't be a total immunity. Maybe it works the other way around and the water dissolves the oil that would protect them from the sun, or maybe going back to the skin shedding idea, they could shed their skin to reveal the waterproof layer underneath, but in doing so reveal fragile skin that can be penetrated by the sunlight.

GenFeelGood
18th Dec 2014, 17:45
You said they shouldn't have started to devolve if Rahab was made a vampire after the others were, but remember it's the younger Lieutenants that mutate first because they have less of Kains soul with which to resist the effects of the curse. All the Lieutenants were already showing the very first signs of mutation in the Soul Reaver 1 into, so 300 years later their offspring should easily be showing a few. By the time Raziel emerges from the abyss, even fledglings are severely mutated (the evolutionary time limits seem to break down, it's complicated), so there's no need tor the vampires in Nosgoth (game) to look 100% human. That's something that annoyed be a bit with the Turelim's ears, since they were his first sign.

I don't think I put it that way; but I believe it goes that all vampires are born with a debilitating vulnerability to the sun that requires them to be shielded from it as they slowly develop a degree of resistance, the reason for the construction of the Fane. I am saying that the Rahabim's resistance to the sun existed, but slowly faded as they went through their evolution, meaning that the fledgling Rahabim that are fresh out of their version of the Fane are as safe to use as all the other fledgling from the other clans. Perhaps by the time of Soul Reaver the corruption has become so potent that it devolves the fledglings shortly after their creation; but I don't think that is the case at this point and time



Anyway, another idea I have was what if the Rahabim had sort of matted their hair into the hood as some way of protecting themselves from the sun? After evolution, it could have fused and toughened much like how Vorador's beard eventually became spikes from his chin. Maybe they'd put some sort of chemical in it and stick it to their backs as protection.


I have pictured them with a big mess of dreadlocks over their head.
http://thenewblack.web126.discountasp.net/PhotoFiles/dreadlocks.jpg

Vampmaster
18th Dec 2014, 18:14
I don't think I put it that way; but I believe it goes that all vampires are born with a debilitating vulnerability to the sun that requires them to be shielded from it as they slowly develop a degree of resistance, the reason for the construction of the Fane. I am saying that the Rahabim's resistance to the sun existed, but slowly faded as they went through their evolution, meaning that the fledgling Rahabim that are fresh out of their version of the Fane are as safe to use as all the other fledgling from the other clans. Perhaps by the time of Soul Reaver the corruption has become so potent that it devolves the fledglings shortly after their creation; but I don't think that is the case at this point and time

I was just addressing your point that they shouldn't have any non human features at all. I'm only talking the very first telltale signs. If they've been in the Fane long enough to become adults, that should be enough to get their first set of traits. Raziel implies that vampires evolve many times during their lifetime and not just all at once. It would make sense that their first is when they reach adulthood, which is the time they get to leave.


I have pictured them with a big mess of dreadlocks over their head.

I imagined a one of those people who use a little (<-understatement) too much hair gel.

-Shiro-
19th Dec 2014, 09:43
I understood that vampires/humans dichotomy is horizontal : hunters for reavers, alchemists for tyrants, etc...

So, for the human coming with the rahabim : he could use a light harpoon launcher (very similar to the crossbow) and as primary ability, some grappling hook/harpoon, difficult to aim and slow, but that could drag vampires to the player.

Reidbynature
27th Dec 2014, 18:25
A harpoon would be cool and a nice throwback to SR1.

GenFeelGood
28th Dec 2014, 20:30
I was just addressing your point that they shouldn't have any non human features at all. I'm only talking the very first telltale signs. If they've been in the Fane long enough to become adults, that should be enough to get their first set of traits. Raziel implies that vampires evolve many times during their lifetime and not just all at once. It would make sense that their first is when they reach adulthood, which is the time they get to leave.



I imagined a one of those people who use a little (<-understatement) too much hair gel.

I see and I agree, the fledgling Rahabim would look almost as close to human as the fledgling Dumahim, but with small details suggesting the course of their change.

When you say people that use too much product for their hair do you mean like the stuff of legend from the 80's? That would be awesome, I'll throw on some hair metal music the first time I play (hopefully) her.

Edit
What if the sun resistant compound was inked into their skin, they are artisans after all and tattoos in this game would be nice? If I'm honest, a mermaid vampire that kinda reminds you of a Suicide Girl with an old Bonnie Tyler haircut paints quite a picture?

Vampmaster
29th Dec 2014, 17:23
I see and I agree, the fledgling Rahabim would look almost as close to human as the fledgling Dumahim, but with small details suggesting the course of their change.

When you say people that use too much product for their hair do you mean like the stuff of legend from the 80's? That would be awesome, I'll throw on some hair metal music the first time I play (hopefully) her.

Edit
What if the sun resistant compound was inked into their skin, they are artisans after all and tattoos in this game would be nice? If I'm honest, a mermaid vampire that kinda reminds you of a Suicide Girl with an old Bonnie Tyler haircut paints quite a picture?

This is how Rahab looked when Raziel was first thrown into the abyss:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226155459/legacyofkain/images/2/20/SR1-Character-Rahab-Lake-Close.jpg

So, he already had scales and gills, but still his hair and no cobra hood. The blue is just lighting, IIRC. It seems like it would be reasonable that his clan would be an evolutionary stage or two behind him, but then a couple of hundred years have passed since that time, so they should have quite a few of those traits by this time.

Regarding the hair, I was thinking more like if it was coated in resin almost like fibreglass and then sculpted into an early version of the cobra hood. It could still be clothing, but it would be good to have something suggestive of the cobra hood and hopefully nothing that would cause much drag in the water. A sort of lightweight veil could work too. I've been assuming it eould be female for most of this, since there's only the summoners so far.

GenFeelGood
29th Dec 2014, 20:46
This is how Rahab looked when Raziel was first thrown into the abyss:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226155459/legacyofkain/images/2/20/SR1-Character-Rahab-Lake-Close.jpg

So, he already had scales and gills, but still his hair and no cobra hood. The blue is just lighting, IIRC. It seems like it would be reasonable that his clan would be an evolutionary stage or two behind him, but then a couple of hundred years have passed since that time, so they should have quite a few of those traits by this time.

Sounds good, some scales well placed and early formation of gills. With gills I wonder about placement, the neck is ok but I always liked the variations where they lined up to the ribs on the back or chest.

Regarding the hair, I was thinking more like if it was coated in resin almost like fibreglass and then sculpted into an early version of the cobra hood. It could still be clothing, but it would be good to have something suggestive of the cobra hood and hopefully nothing that would cause much drag in the water. A sort of lightweight veil could work too. I've been assuming it eould be female for most of this, since there's only the summoners so far.

I like this, not just for a cobra hood (which sounds fantastic) but for other variations it can offer on the alternate skins.

On a side note do we want her to look good, not sexualized; but maybe on par with the Reaver in terms of looks?

calypso-694
30th Dec 2014, 05:14
I always picture them (any vampire young one in nosgoth) following in their makers footsteps a bit IE clothing, abilities etc.

a quick break down is that:

the Dumahim are are Asian influenced so is their armor and looks. they employ battle paint in place of traditional Japanese masks. and their early vampiric state is human but with hardened facial features and elongated claws (whether wearing the gauntlets or not) and their evolved sate is very very similar to Dumah himself.

the Turelims are power house warriors and emulate that of their creator as well. their face is morphed and their size is gargantune of a regular human.

Razielim are an exception being they are starved of blood and take on a form similar to Janos is his blood starved state. as they evolved and recuperate they take on the bat like form of their father Raziel. they are the most beautiful being as raziel was first born

Zephonim are crazed and scary. nuff said. Zephon himself seemed conniving so his children follow that. their looks seem to me just how Zephon was. even their voice. and abilities. Remember in SR1 its thousands of years in the future so their mental abilities be it of any clan have diminished
the
Melhiahim SEEM to take on their fathers traits. heavy decay from the start. We will learn more of the summoner as she gets available

and finally Rahabim. I imagine their young looks similar to Dumahim. Mostly human but with tiny details that show they are vampiric such s the gills and maybe a scaly look. The Sun sensitivity I wouldn't worry about seeing s how Nosgoth nearly all the maps have an eclipse hovering abone you. Perfect for a avampiric attack. I imagine them close to their soul reaver counter. not so many clothes and nets tight clothing so they get maximum movement. they should flow like water. Hoods and covering for the sunn seem illogical to me because of the Eclipse that hangs above. no toher vamp seems to need sun protection in these skirmishes so why should they? they are new born yes but not so sensitive that they should be covered head to toe in garmet. As they get older the sun affects them more I imagine not when they are young. think of it as a reverse affect. all the other vampires get used to sun when they are older but as they Rahabim do they get weaker to it. whereas the others are sensitive when they are young but the Rahabim are resilient to it perhaps. Sun cant be a bother that much because of yes...Eclipse. maybe close cropped hair or bald. love females who can rock that look

GenFeelGood
5th Jan 2015, 04:14
With regard to the clothing worn by the fledlings, I agree that there should be a degree of exposure; but given their special forces background, I think they should be armored to a degree. One style of armor that I keep coming back to is the linothorax armor, layers of cloth that have been fused through adhesives and are proven to be effective while also being incredibly light and flexible. I think a gothic version of this in the colors of the Rahabim would look amazing.


Edit
Found a picture
http://www.300spartanwarriors.com/images/259_My_linothorax.jpg

Keitaro767
7th Jan 2015, 16:55
Since we all agreed that the Rahabim would be female, I would like to propose (it's just a daydream actually ;) ) on how she will execute her enemy.

1. She rips her enemy's heart from their chest, and proceeds to drink from it as though it is a cup.
>> This one emphasizes her brutal nature as a vampire.

2. The traditional "kiss" to the neck.
>> I really envision her as a siren (please don't hate me ...), and this style of execution emphasizes her alluring nature.

3. She mauls her opponent, shredding some pieces of flesh, and consumes it.
>> This is, perhaps, more ruthless than the first. It really defines the nature of vampires, being merciless and dominant.

What do you guys think?

PS: I saw an art about Rahab forming gills and webbed fingers as he finally developed the immunity against water. Blood was seeping from his newly formed gills -- agony and satisfaction. Maybe, I am already late for that :mad2:

Vampmaster
7th Jan 2015, 17:11
Since we all agreed that the Rahabim would be female, I would like to propose (it's just a daydream actually ;) ) on how she will execute her enemy.

1. She rips her enemy's heart from their chest, and proceeds to drink from it as though it is a cup.
>> This one emphasizes her brutal nature as a vampire.

2. The traditional "kiss" to the neck.
>> I really envision her as a siren (please don't hate me ...), and this style of execution emphasizes her alluring nature.

3. She mauls her opponent, shredding some pieces of flesh, and consumes it.
>> This is, perhaps, more ruthless than the first. It really defines the nature of vampires, being merciless and dominant.

What do you guys think?

PS: I saw an art about Rahab forming gills and webbed fingers as he finally developed the immunity against water. Blood was seeping from his newly formed gills -- agony and satisfaction. Maybe, I am already late for that :mad2:

This?
http://www.deviantart.com/art/A-weakness-overcome-365559410

That's Daniel Cabuco's (original designer of the vampire clans from SR1) page, BTW. He'll be doing the evolved skin like he's done for the other's so far.

calypso-694
7th Jan 2015, 19:42
The Siren idea sounds cool. Imagine, if you will, a pretty vampire. the fledglings are mostly human in appearance after all. and the idea of a siren like vampire. hmm.

the Turelim look pretty human save for the fact they are HUGE and their face is vamp like. very similar to Turels face in the GlyphX intro of SR1.

and the rest follow.

the Rahabim being women could have thin faces and great makeup in an ocean theme. maybe even something similar to Umahs war tattoos from BO2 ? but a thin light armor would be cool. I dig the idea of that linothorax armor very Roman. or they could go all out Kate Beckinsale Underworld.

Razaiim
7th Jan 2015, 20:27
https://larpexchange.com/media/catalog/product/cache/4/image/500x500/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/e/l/elfnoble_blk_sv02a/larpexchange.com-elf-noble-armor-full-FF-noble-full-35.jpg

For armor why not something like this? Obviously with layers of leather or something underneath, but have this be the main piece?

In terms of character design I think that they are going to be in a similar state to the Dumahim. Not as supernaturally strong or gifted as the Turelim/Razielim, but not degenerate monsters like Melcahim/Zephonim, but more run of the mill humanoid vampires, perhaps with a similar focus on martial abilities and mechanisms. I'm expecting posture to be hunched in a more roguelike and deliberate fashion instead of the Deceiver's more contorted posture.

Gugulug5000
7th Jan 2015, 23:46
I like the way this discussion is going. I personally have envisioned the Rahabim being almost exactly what you guys are saying. I too, see this as another female vampire (though it could work just as well as a male). I don't think they'd be too overly devolved yet, and I think they 'd be mostly human. The whole Siren thing is something that I have thought as well for a while (maybe I saw someone post it in this thread before or something, but I've had that same idea in mind).

As for the design, I think Razaiim is spot on with the armor, and I could picture it looking amazing with a light-weight blue scale armor on underneath that resembles fish scales. I think the armor should be very form-fitting (without overly sexualizing the character), and I think having markings that resemble Umah's is a great idea.

Vampmaster
7th Jan 2015, 23:59
I think these sort of scaly patterns could work well:

Xev's cluster lizard (reptile = evolutionary midpoint towards fish) costume from Lexx:
http://www.lexxmuseum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/lizardskin3.jpg

Zhaan's scaly skin pattern from Farcape (yeah, she's a plant, but blue scales look appropriate for aquatic beings as well):
http://erpscapers.com/mo/wmisc/zhaan3.jpg

Maybe paint the armour Razaiim posted with that sort of pattern and possibly remove the shoulder guards to make it sleeker for moving in the water.

It could be interesting if the Rahabim could dislocate their jaw like snakes. They's look mostly human until they opened their mouth and only then could you see them for the monsters they are. They did end up with massive teeth/jaws in SR1, so maybe that could be starting to develop, but remain hidden 90% of the time. I kind of want them to have a bite attack.

calypso-694
8th Jan 2015, 01:45
I think these sort of scaly patterns could work well:

Xev's cluster lizard (reptile = evolutionary midpoint towards fish) costume from Lexx:
http://www.lexxmuseum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/lizardskin3.jpg

Zhaan's scaly skin pattern from Farcape (yeah, she's a plant, but blue scales look appropriate for aquatic beings as well):
http://erpscapers.com/mo/wmisc/zhaan3.jpg

Maybe paint the armour Razaiim posted with that sort of pattern and possibly remove the shoulder guards to make it sleeker for moving in the water.

It could be interesting if the Rahabim could dislocate their jaw like snakes. They's look mostly human until they opened their mouth and only then could you see them for the monsters they are. They did end up with massive teeth/jaws in SR1, so maybe that could be starting to develop, but remain hidden 90% of the time. I kind of want them to have a bite attack.


TWO of the GREATEST female characters EVER!! im upset I didn't think of this! great ideas. and the bite idea sounds cool.

the Razielim now have that cool puncture lift execution. He opens his mouth as the blood drips down. very demonic and beautiful.

I picture the default Rahabim execution something similar in feel. maybe she could grab the human and pull him close all seductive before opening her huge shark jowels and devouring his neck. think the animalistic executions of the 30 days of night vamps in the film. it would act as a homage to kains execution in Defiance.

GenFeelGood
8th Jan 2015, 02:24
I'd like an execution that is sensual and one that is savage, not concerned with which comes first.

Sensual
I am picturing her crouching over the human, lifting up there head, and running the back of her fingers down the side of their face & neck while she opens her mouth to expose those huge rows of shark teeth. Then biting out a huge chunk of that neck and feasting.

Savage
I am picturing her plunging her hand into the human's lower back and ripping out their heart; and then she stares at it momentarily as it still beats and then she bites a huge chunk out of it like an apple. The liver would be the better anatomical choice; but the heart feels so much more poetic, and a nice bump to Janos.

Razaiim
8th Jan 2015, 04:26
Something else I forgot and Gugulug just reminded me. The elder Rahabim had tattoos on their backs and jewelry, so perhaps for the evolved design they might take more after the Turelim and go for a tople...... wait we're shooting for female vampires aren't we?

Point being, long serpentine tattoos and markings, with adornments. Looking at the old model, it looks like anklets and arm bands.

GenFeelGood
8th Jan 2015, 04:48
Oh goodness yes, tattoos would be nice. I originally suggested tats for the Melchahim as a means of masking their scars out of vanity; but the Rahabim, with their artistry background and being the most visible with tattoos in Soul Reaver, are truly the more appropriate clan to utilize them.

Keitaro767
8th Jan 2015, 06:47
This?
http://www.deviantart.com/art/A-weakness-overcome-365559410

That's Daniel Cabuco's (original designer of the vampire clans from SR1) page, BTW. He'll be doing the evolved skin like he's done for the other's so far.

THAT ONE!!! WOW!! YOU FOUND IT!! :D

As for the other scale designs, they look awesome as well, and befitting their nature :)
Anyhow, I am now really loving how this discussion is heading to :D
So, yay for us!! \ ( ^ o ^ ) /

GenFeelGood
8th Jan 2015, 19:51
For the jaws,
Along with detaching the jaw to create a larger bite I'd also like to suggest a characteristic that could be universal among the Rahabim as part of their transition in their Fane, as it is present on Rahab, high cheek bones.
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226155459/legacyofkain/images/2/20/SR1-Character-Rahab-Lake-Close.jpg
How does this add to the bite? By masking my suggestion, which feels like a good start towards their transition into the extended jaws they have in Soul Reaver, from being visible while they are at standby (this is assuming their jaw was retractable at first).

Standing still she looks normal in the face with faint lines extending from both ends of her lips that vanish underneath these high cheek bones, and she is able to move her lips without the lines moving; but once she really opens her mouth those cheeks separate along that line as her jaw detaches and those rows of teeth emerge. When she is done the rows of teeth retract then the jaw reconnects; and the upper and lower halves of those cheeks come back together, leaving only those line..

calypso-694
8th Jan 2015, 20:53
For the jaws,
Along with detaching the jaw to create a larger bite I'd also like to suggest a characteristic that could be universal among the Rahabim as part of their transition in their Fane, as it is present on Rahab, high cheek bones.
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226155459/legacyofkain/images/2/20/SR1-Character-Rahab-Lake-Close.jpg
How does this add to the bite? By masking my suggestion, which feels like a good start towards their transition into the extended jaws they have in Soul Reaver, from being visible while they are at standby (this is assuming their jaw was retractable at first).

Standing still she looks normal in the face with faint lines extending from both ends of her lips that vanish underneath these high cheek bones, and she is able to move her lips without the lines moving; but once she really opens her mouth those cheeks separate along that line as her jaw detaches and those rows of teeth emerge. When she is done the rows of teeth retract then the jaw reconnects; and the upper and lower halves of those cheeks come back together, leaving only those line..

very similar to how snake mouths are.
https://www.google.com/search?q=snake+mouths&rlz=1T4TSNO_enUS464US464&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=PeyuVNzZIfLksATQ-oLYCA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=976&bih=402#tbm=isch&q=snake+mouths

my friend Gom did a great fan art of Rahabim for the anniversary. I think for their evolved skin these ladies could have ink similar to or perhaps on their stomach like so
http://gombaka.blogspot.com/2014/08/rahabim.html

he also did a slew of LOK art for the anniversary. good artist.

for the fledged version of these ladies I still think tats similar to Umah would be neat. it would reinforce the ink they have for their evolved skins.

Lord_Aevum
8th Jan 2015, 21:03
he also did a slew of LOK art for the anniversary. good artist.

Gom's art is awesome. Please give him my regards. Was really nice to see Amy Hennig give it the thumbs up on Twitter.

Vampmaster
8th Jan 2015, 21:55
This is the closest thing I can find with the jaw.
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Physique-Modification-30462049
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Servissil-Sketches-424484241

Did Amy leave a comment on Gom's pic?

calypso-694
8th Jan 2015, 22:05
This is the closest thing I can find with the jaw.
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Physique-Modification-30462049
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Servissil-Sketches-424484241

Did Amy leave a comment on Gom's pic?

oh now I see the mouth. yeah very snake like. and yeah she favorite it. commented, and retweeted. so did Dan. Dan was warmed by it. all on twitter.

Vampmaster
8th Jan 2015, 22:39
oh now I see the mouth. yeah very snake like. and yeah she favorite it. commented, and retweeted. so did Dan. Dan was warmed by it. all on twitter.

Ah, found it. Good thing Daniel doesn't tweet that much or it could have taken forever.

GenFeelGood
9th Jan 2015, 01:53
This is the closest thing I can find with the jaw.
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Physique-Modification-30462049
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Servissil-Sketches-424484241


Spot On

Keitaro767
10th Jan 2015, 16:17
The extendable jaws are like Mileena's jaws from MK!! ^_^ That'd be bloody awesome :D
Imagine meeting a very beautiful woman, with a beguiling, angelic face, who looks very innocent and childlike, when suddenly she springs up and chews your face off ... !!!

GenFeelGood
10th Jan 2015, 20:34
The extendable jaws are like Mileena's jaws from MK!! ^_^ That'd be bloody awesome :D
Imagine meeting a very beautiful woman, with a beguiling, angelic face, who looks very innocent and childlike, when suddenly she springs up and chews your face off ... !!!

Exactly how I perceive the Female Rahabim to be. :D

Edit
Aside from the bite, what else are you guys picturing for abilities? I keep imagining some form of Kain's Mist Form coming into play for the Rahabim as they start trying to direct their change towards an immunity to water. I am not looking towards it for the stealth aspect, the Reaver and Deceiver have that area of expertise filled; but I am picturing her either raising or emitting a large cloud of mist that works to limit the distance the humans can view what is around them to assist the vamp team in their approach. I have also come across areas of the maps, places most people bunker down in during their human round and see areas of the walls that are barred or grated instead of solidly covered, where one could possible pass through in mist form as Kain does.

Razaiim
11th Jan 2015, 20:36
My only gripe with the mist is how to make it different in function from shadow step or evade. I'm thinking maybe leaving a pool of mist with a strand connecting the rahabim so long as she's in range, and she can recall back to it. I also like the idea of a blinding spit, and like a green sludge that covers the Human's screen. Maybe a slime that causes sprinting humans to fall. They're supposed to be special forces so they should be aggressive in skills like Reavers.

GenFeelGood
11th Jan 2015, 22:05
I'd only like a mist form with regard to passing through barriers with opening that could allow them to pass through, otherwise I'd like it to function in an escape or infiltration capacity. It could be a blast of mist from where she stands that limits visibility for the humans to hit her as she makes a break for it or done at range to mask the vamp teams advance. Perhaps only while she is in the mist does she takes on that form as a passive, secondary aspect to the ability. While in the form I expect she will still be vulnerable to damage, though I am not sure to what degree.

Blinding sludge would be interesting, momentarily disabling 1 human while taking down their teammate. Not sure about slime, sounds kinda slapstick like the old banana peel gag.

Vampmaster
11th Jan 2015, 22:38
Not sure about slime, sounds kinda slapstick like the old banana peel gag.

I've mentioned hagfish slime before, which doesn't have the comedy side to it, since it just slows/restricts it's victims movement. I think there are other ways they could adapt to water besides mist form. As others have said, the Reavers already have mist-like abilities.

GenFeelGood
12th Jan 2015, 00:21
I think there are other ways they could adapt to water besides mist form. As others have said, the Reavers already have mist-like abilities.

You may be right, its probably better to focus more on the reptilian aspect rather than the elemental when it comes to abilities.

Edit
I remember sprouting scales as armor, functioning like the Tyrant's Ignore Pain, being suggested in another thread.

Perhaps initially in their development of the immunity it started with the scales forming where they exposed themselves to water. I'm kind of borrowing some mermaid lore there; but it does make me think of how this can make an interesting ability.

She drenches herself in water (dealing a slight degree of damage to herself), causing her to sprout scales all over that shields her from a heavy percentage of damage dealt to her during that time; but unlike the Tyrant's Ignore Pain, she is able to continue attacking while in this form.

Razaiim
12th Jan 2015, 17:05
Reptiles are known for regenerative qualities, maybe boosted regen that locks the character down during the heal.
They might also envenom their claws or those of an ally.
They are also described as special forces or explorers so they maybe have equipment based skills as well
I'm still in support of any kind of trapper skills that reduce human movement and mitigate sprinting or dodge roll as options.

GenFeelGood
12th Jan 2015, 17:15
Reptiles are known for regenerative qualities, maybe boosted regen that locks the character down during the heal.
I'm still in support of any kind of trapper skills that reduce human movement and mitigate sprinting or dodge roll as options.

I have been waiting for a trap skill for the vamps as well, something I can place at healing stations to deal with the ones that got away or force them to risk going further out to the next one and either me or one of my teammates catching up to them

Razaiim
12th Jan 2015, 17:21
Why not a straight up disable? Or sabotage that reduces the effectiveness of the first 30% of total ammo or until a proper heal station is used. I'm thinking the Rahabim goes in a fight and ducks out while doing a passing slash at the heal station then leaving. I think it needs to be fairly quick so that humans don't notice it. The sabotage should also last until someone uses the station or a lengthy time.

Gugulug5000
12th Jan 2015, 23:49
I'm really liking the sabotage ideas bouncing around. Seeing as the Rahabim are the special forces of Kain's empire, it seems logical that they would be saboteurs. Perhaps they could have some abilities that can disable a human's weapon temporarily (perhaps a kind of sticky spit or something), possibly requiring a slightly longer reload to get the weapon functional again, or an ability that can prolong the cooldowns of human abilities. I think some of the Scout's abilities would go well with their role of special forces (mark target, camouflage, and traps), so perhaps some vampiric versions of those would be good as well (for example sticky traps, stationary camoflage and a 'marked for death' ability that allows the Rahabim, and only the Rahabim, to do extra damage to a single target).

I honestly don't like the idea of the Rahabim being more reptilian in this stage. I've always thought of them as shark-like vampires, not reptiles. Saying it makes sense because reptiles are an evolutionary midpoint on their way to fish just seems wrong (primates, birds, and amphibians are also midpoints between humans and fish, so by that same logic, why don't we make the Rahabim look like birds?). Rahab already has gills and scales in the SR era, so why bother making a reptilian midpoint? Sure we could borrow some ideas for the Rahabim from reptiles (though I still think we should focus on fish in that respect as well), but I think we should avoid making them into reptiles.

Vampmaster
13th Jan 2015, 00:15
The reptile ideas are like evolution in reverse. In real like it's like, fish->amphibian->reptile->mammal. For the Rahabim they'd be going backwards along that path. The developers had already said, having their main ability be immunity to water would cause problems given that some areas let you drop enemies in water, having them able to swim would make them highly effected by which map you're paying and it would also elimate the possibility of water based weapons for humans.

Not to mention, there needs to be a bit of an explanation for the cobra hood they end up with later in their evolution. Since they're renowned for adapting to situations, my opinion is that skin shedding would be perfect for this. However if the devs decide to go against it, the Chaos/Flesh armor type abilities (which I may have repeated, but would really like to see), could still be implemented as spells or chemical secretion or something. Adaption is the Rahabim's primary personality type and this would be a great way of showing that.

Furthermore, the dislocatable jaw is derived from the idea that they shouldn't be looking monsterous just yet, but their main attack in SR1 was biting their massive jaws. Also, the evolved Lieutenants were all kind of mash-ups and not really one specific species/genus. Shark would do just as well as snake for the jaw, but I do like the idea that they could look mostly human on the outside and be more monsterous underneath.

BTW, mammals didn't evolve from birds. I looked it up and from what could tell, birds and mammals branched off from reptiles in two separate directions as opposed to one, then the other. So, birds would not be an intermediate stage for Rahabim.

GenFeelGood
13th Jan 2015, 00:21
The reptilian aspect is only with regard to their abilities. The consensus we have for the Rahabim's appearance is closer to human, like the Dumahim; but with scales forming in a few places like they did on Rahab in the Soul Reaver intro, along with possibly the early development stages of the gills, to show the direction of their change.

Are they suppose to based on sharks? I suppose it comes down to the eye of the beholder; but, aside from the gills, they always reminded me of something related to an iguana from the Galapagos or a king cobra (obviously because of the hood).

Vampmaster
13th Jan 2015, 00:32
The reptilian aspect is only with regard to their abilities. The consensus we have for the Rahabim's appearance is closer to human, like the Dumahim; but with scales forming in a few places like they did on Rahab in the Soul Reaver intro, along with possibly the early development stages of the gills, to show the direction of their change.

Are they suppose to based on sharks? I suppose it comes down to the eye of the beholder; but, aside from the gills, they always reminded me of something related to an iguana from the Galapagos or a king cobra (obviously because of the hood).

I always thought they were based on Stingrays/Manta-rays and with a shark-like mouth. Vampire evolution is based on the Lieutenant's subconscious, so it doesn't work exactly like it would in nature. Like I was saying, they're like mash-ups.

Gugulug5000
13th Jan 2015, 00:35
I just don't think deevolution means literal reverse evolution, otherwise they would go back to being more apish and then to monkeys, etc before finally hitting reptiles and ultimately fish. I see their devolution more as a mental devolution, while physically they are still evolving; they just become more animalistic in their behavior. I don't think there would be a need for a reptile mid point, mammals are perfectly capable of evolving into aquatic creatures (the evolution of Cetaceans, ie whales and dolphins, being a prime example).

I seem to recall Daniel Cabuco mentioning that the great white shark was his inspiration for Rahab and his clan (compare them on google images and you can tell), but I can't seem to find the post. It may have been in the comments of the drawing he did of Rahab. While yes, I can definitely see why people think cobras when they see the Rahabim, I think the head 'hood' is more based off of a sting ray's fins (almost as if the Rahabim grow a sting ray on their head).

Again, I'm not saying we should completely ignore possible, awesome abilities based off of reptiles, I'm just saying I think we should focus a bit more on fish.

EDIT: Found the posts by Daniel Cabuco:

"...his skin was meant to be like a Mako or Great White shark. The Gills were referenced from a Whitetip reef shark photo."

"A shark's skin is like no other. It ties well to Rahab's predatory nature, and browsing through shark skins, I found a lot of subtle differences that I wanted to try on his skin. The mottling, gill coloration, and immediacy of shark skin color speaks to the primitive brain and says 'danger'. I wanted that on a subconscious level (it's why certain silhouettes and shapes feel dangerous to us immediately)"

Vampmaster
13th Jan 2015, 00:47
Well, as I was trying to say about the subconscious it doesn't have to follow the exact path that it would in nature, reverse or otherwise. Rahab didn't just go "I want to be a fish", he went "I want to survive in this new environment". I don't think he'd choose to give up the ability to walk on land and breath air and stand in the sun, it's just that he lost control of his evolution. Just my theory, but I think he'd pick an ability, try to evolve it and the more he was effected by Nupraptor's corruption, the more he'd overshoot the mark and end up with an unwanted mutation. So, the mutation would be determined by the ability he was trying to achieve.

BTW, only two of the abilities I've suggested have been based on snakes; the skin shedding and the jaw. The jaw, as I explained, also works for a shark and is just a way of allowing them to retain a humanoid look most of the time. The rest of my suggestions, were toxic spray (a short range, wide spread variation of their projectile from SR1), which fish can have, eel shock and hagfish slime.

Razaiim
13th Jan 2015, 00:52
I wouldn't get to Literal with the term "Devolution". I think it was just an easily understandable term that describes how the Vampires went from these seemingly perfect beings to the deformed monsters seen at the end of Kain's empire. In terms of inspiration I look at them and see a mix of shark and snake. Look at Rahab's teeth in this screenshot and artwork:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110529024848/legacyofkain/images/6/69/Early_Rahab.JPG


http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs8/i/2005/326/4/0/Fishy__Rahab__by_Fera_Feueragian.jpg

He sports enlarged fangs along with the shark like teeth, further reinforcing the hybrid creature.

Also looking at a lot of the artwork their skin isn't scaly like fish or snakes, but appears to be closer the skin of sharks or lizards, in that the scales or segments aren't clearly visible to the eye unless you are unreasonably close, like getting eaten.

Vampmaster
13th Jan 2015, 00:58
Like a mud puppy with shark teeth. They do have gills!

Gugulug5000
13th Jan 2015, 00:59
@Vampmaster: I hope you don't think I'm attacking your ideas personally. I've seen a few people in this thread suggest reptilian things, and I'm not trying to target anyone.

@Razaiim: I think those enlarged teeth are just from them being vampires, not snakes. Otherwise it could be argued all of the vampires are part snake. :nut:

I just think the base skin for the Rahabim should look human, and the evolved one should look like Rahab did in the intro to SR, or possibly with shark-like skin instead of the scales Rahab has at that time. Aside from the 'cobra hood' there really isn't anything that says they're reptiles to me.

Razaiim
13th Jan 2015, 01:15
I agree with the standard Rahabim being human, except for the key vampire traits, with a hint of their future, discoloration, slightly disproportionate facial features, in a similar vein to the current clans barring the Razielim.

I do think they should keep more in theme with the current evolved skins though and disagree with your second point. They don't remotely resemble the Lieutenants at that time, but are a more monstrous in between. The biggest differences I see between the Evolved Turelim and Dumahim and the SR1 beasts (barring the obvious media limitations) is an exaggeration of the features that emerge in the former, and the bearing which I think is more important. The Evolved skins are still civilized, proud and powerful, while the latter are hunched, and have a more animal intelligence and bearing.

Gugulug5000
13th Jan 2015, 01:26
I do think they should keep more in theme with the current evolved skins though and disagree with your second point. They don't remotely resemble the Lieutenants at that time, but are a more monstrous in between. The biggest differences I see between the Evolved Turelim and Dumahim and the SR1 beasts (barring the obvious media limitations) is an exaggeration of the features that emerge in the former, and the bearing which I think is more important. The Evolved skins are still civilized, proud and powerful, while the latter are hunched, and have a more animal intelligence and bearing.

You know, now that I look back at that, I have no idea why I typed that, as it came out completely wrong. I actually agree with you on both counts, they should look human with their default skin, possibly with very slight hints of what they will become (perhaps a pale, slightly bluish skin, but only very, very slightly blue). What I meant to say with the evolved skin is that only it should have gills and scales (or shark skin and other devolved Rahabim features). I didn't mean for it to sound like I wanted them to look like they're in the exact same evolutionary stage as Rahab was. So yeah, they should keep up the great work with the evolved skins.

Razaiim
13th Jan 2015, 03:37
And the tattoos. Don't forget the tattoos. Those are keeeeey.

Vampmaster
13th Jan 2015, 11:27
You know, now that I look back at that, I have no idea why I typed that, as it came out completely wrong. I actually agree with you on both counts, they should look human with their default skin, possibly with very slight hints of what they will become (perhaps a pale, slightly bluish skin, but only very, very slightly blue). What I meant to say with the evolved skin is that only it should have gills and scales (or shark skin and other devolved Rahabim features). I didn't mean for it to sound like I wanted them to look like they're in the exact same evolutionary stage as Rahab was. So yeah, they should keep up the great work with the evolved skins.

Predevolved Rahab was starting to get scales in the SR1 intro. He actually seems to have lost them by the time Raziel emerged from the abyss, so scales are the earlier trait that his clan would have. The blue in the pic is mostly lighting as is the green in Turel's pic and the yellow in Melchiah's:
http://i.imgur.com/BG09D3u.jpg

BTW, fish can do the jaw thing too:
http://www.mapoflife.org/topics/topic_361_Pharyngeal-jaws-in-teleost-fish/

EDIT: OK, the link wasn't what I was looking for, but it seems sharks jaws work similarly to snakes anyway.

Razaiim
13th Jan 2015, 17:46
Just for fun, why don't they have goblin shark jaws

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2013/10/600-grey-goblin.gif

Vampmaster
13th Jan 2015, 17:54
Just for fun, why don't they have goblin shark jaws

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2013/10/600-grey-goblin.gif

As long as it doesn't end up looking like the proto-xenomorph, from Prometheus, the internal stuff could work. I was basically trying to think of a way they could have a shark bite and still look human most of the time.

Razaiim
13th Jan 2015, 17:58
Not gonna lie I was thinking that first before I remembered goblin sharks.

calypso-694
13th Jan 2015, 22:24
that goblin shark blew my mind!!

this my be slight off topic? but as far as vampire Evolution/Devolution goes..they never stop really evolving. when they Devolve its only because of Nuprators curse and the corruption. Kain when he meets Vorador for the first time that's Vorador being fully Evolved but not as his Peak. If Vorador had still lived during Kains Empire there is a great cance hed be a Giant hybrid wolf bat monster. Kain during the time of Nosgoth again like vorador, is at his evolutionary end point but not the peak. we know this because of Raziels VO in the intro. If kain keeps evolving hell probably morph into a crazy Bat wolf thing much like vorador.

the brothers only Devolve because of the corruption. this isn't to say that if they don't have the corruption that they wouldn't evolve into what they are during the time of SR1 they could very well be the EXACT SAME but less grotesque perhaps. Raziel as pointed out in some concept art would have tunred into a giant bat dragon thing had he not been cast into the abyss. I have a point but I lost it lol.

oh yeah.

so long story short the evolved skins for the Rahabim (like the other clans) should mirror Rahab. his evolution might be subconscious but because these are young vampires they want to follow in their masters footstepts. IE ginat fish eel snake monster lol. the Dumahim evolved skin is a great example. they follow Dumah to the T based on is SR1 and action figure look. because Nosgoth takes place I think 300 years after Raziel gets cast? Dumah himself should have evolved a bit to look like is SR1 counter.

vampires evolve over long periods of time. that's why even after 1000 years in kains empire the the clan leaders only have cloven feet and hands and their faciel features are slightly exaggerated (also due to being created by kain they stay pretty longer....except melchia...awe) where as the youngins of the lieutenants might Evolve and Devolve quicker.

sorry for the long post

Vampmaster
14th Jan 2015, 11:36
I really like the pattens on this guy's arms and legs:
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Loy-Gvorn-and-Elizabeth-Nightwen-fin-370383095

I can't tell if that's just fish net and his skin or just engraved or stitched into his clothing, but it could work as either really. Between that and the wave pattern on the metal bands, it looks really appropriate. The fins on his head are a better shape for swimming than some versions of the hood I've seen (some have a really deep curve which would act like a parachute in the water), even if it's not quite what was seen in Soul Reaver.

Keitaro767
15th Jan 2015, 18:18
I can't tell if that's just fish net and his skin or just engraved or stitched into his clothing, but it could work as either really. Between that and the wave pattern on the metal bands, it looks really appropriate. The fins on his head are a better shape for swimming than some versions of the hood I've seen (some have a really deep curve which would act like a parachute in the water), even if it's not quite what was seen in Soul Reaver.

Rahab's slick hair feels just like a dorsal fin for me. As long as the Siren will have a slight immunity to water, any creature mash-ups will do just fine (and for a fact to some people, some reptiles can survive underwater ...). And, as I read the previous posts from pages 4 up to here, the topic seemed to go just a wee bit off. And so, I would like to propose that we must list ALL brainstormed ideas, so that we may be able to deliberate them in the future (and also, to make the thread less cluttered :D).

With so many ideas bouncing back and forth between us Nosgothians (sounds corny, I know :mad2: ...), anyone new to this thread will be caught off-guard from such numerous great ideas that our collaborative minds could contribute.

Vampmaster
15th Jan 2015, 19:52
Rahab's slick hair feels just like a dorsal fin for me. As long as the Siren will have a slight immunity to water, any creature mash-ups will do just fine (and for a fact to some people, some reptiles can survive underwater ...). And, as I read the previous posts from pages 4 up to here, the topic seemed to go just a wee bit off. And so, I would like to propose that we must list ALL brainstormed ideas, so that we may be able to deliberate them in the future (and also, to make the thread less cluttered :D).

With so many ideas bouncing back and forth between us Nosgothians (sounds corny, I know :mad2: ...), anyone new to this thread will be caught off-guard from such numerous great ideas that our collaborative minds could contribute.

The problem with the immunity is that it can only really be represented in the gameplay by:

Massive changes to the maps so that they can include water to swim in or wade through.
Add water weapons that can be countered easilly by all players swapping to Rahabim.
Adding a whole set of new maps and and classes suited to water and having a separate lobby for all these new classes.

This has already been discussed with the devs in closed alpha and determined to be a bad idea. Corey has specifically said they won't do water based levels or elemental immunities. That's why all the mysterious items are visual FX only.

BTW, if the mention of the hood is confusing anyone, I mean the things sticking out of this Rahamim's back and head:
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/8/83/SR1-Enemies-Rahabim-Fledgling.jpg
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/d/df/SR1-Enemies-Rahabim-Adult.jpg

It's not just an idea that was thought of in this thread. It's something that was actually in the main LOK series. Even if they hadn't evolved in in the time this game is set, we'd still like to invoke the imagery of it.

calypso-694
15th Jan 2015, 22:01
BTW, if the mention of the hood is confusing andone, I mean the things sticking out of this Rahamim's back and head:
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/8/83/SR1-Enemies-Rahabim-Fledgling.jpg
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/d/df/SR1-Enemies-Rahabim-Adult.jpg

It's not just an idea that was thought of in this thread. It's something that was actually in the main LOK series. Even if they hadn't evolved in in the time this game is set, we'd still like to invoke the imagery of it.


agreed...sort of. I think of the alternate skins could have hood. or maybe something similar in shape. this image comes to my mind. http://31.media.tumblr.com/e5144a8db88af302033372e7ea15658b/tumblr_mkajneoeMW1qd1zpno1_1280.png

only instead of the horned shape it could be in that circular form of the hood. being a female a nice battle themed dress would be nice.

GenFeelGood
19th Jan 2015, 18:43
I have another suggestion for her hair. Since I think most of us are looking for her to have visible scales like Rahab did in the intro, how about we have hairstyles that involve shaved sides; but instead of those sides being smooth or with a slight stubble, we see the scales forming?

I'd most enjoy some refined version of Ragnar Lodbrok look from Vikings, maybe with tighter braids on the top.
http://data1.whicdn.com/images/63750142/large.png

There are already many ways to execute this
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c4/d7/99/c4d799ae214b76009eb516f7d984e8a6.jpghttp://rollingout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/jadahair1.jpg

calypso-694
19th Jan 2015, 20:35
I have another suggestion for her hair. Since I think most of us are looking for her to have visible scales like Rahab did in the intro, how about we have hairstyles that involve shaved sides; but instead of those sides being smooth or with a slight stubble, we see the scales forming?

I'd most enjoy some refined version of Ragnar Lodbrok look from Vikings, maybe with tighter braids on the top.
http://data1.whicdn.com/images/63750142/large.png

There are already many ways to execute this
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c4/d7/99/c4d799ae214b76009eb516f7d984e8a6.jpghttp://rollingout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/jadahair1.jpg

nice! love that hairstyle on girls.

I recommend this amazing woman as a base model perhaps?
http://hannahfierman.com/www/Home.html

GenFeelGood
20th Jan 2015, 01:36
I recommend this amazing woman as a base model perhaps?
http://hannahfierman.com/www/Home.html

Her face is around what I was picturing and those eyes are just mesmerizing. For the build though, I was picturing something like a female MMA fighter. I enjoy this duality we are creating for the Rahabim, going from looking serene during her approach to savage once she has the target in her grasp.

GenFeelGood
25th Jan 2015, 23:19
I have a suggestion with regard to the Rahabim's lore. What if this duality we are crafting in their form (that centers on concealing the nature and extent of their change) is not a coincidence but an intentional design decision , a decision not made to be used against humans but the other vampire clans.

The general rule was that Kain changed first and the lieutenants followed in succession from 1st to last born; but Raziel showed that rule could be broken.

What if the rate of change for Rahab and his clan was faster than the other lieutenants and he worked to hide it? He would have tried to avoid surpassing Kain's change out of fear and devotion; but perhaps he surpassed Dumah's or even Turel's clan and purposely hid this to keep them from harboring any animosity towards him or his clan.

Passarbye
26th Jan 2015, 00:46
I have a suggestion with regard to the Rahabim's lore. What if this duality we are crafting in their form (that centers on concealing the nature and extent of their change) is not a coincidence but an intentional design decision , a decision not made to be used against humans but the other vampire clans.

The general rule was that Kain changed first and the lieutenants followed in succession from 1st to last born; but Raziel showed that rule could be broken.

What if the rate of change for Rahab and his clan was faster than the other lieutenants and he worked to hide it? He would have tried to avoid surpassing Kain's change out of fear and devotion; but perhaps he surpassed Dumah's or even Turel's clan and purposely hid this to keep them from harboring any animosity towards him or his clan.

I think it's easily possible that Rahab may have hidden his abilities and faster evolution rate out of fear. Not sure if I read this somewhere, but wasn't he afraid of all the other clan lieutenants as well as Kain himself? confirming that would have a great impact on how far exactly his clan was able to evolve (as they do look more devolved than the rest in SR1), and would even support some crazy ideas as long as they remain somewhat human-like due to the time period Nosgoth is set in.

It's really hard to come up with a good skill-set for the Rahabim because of their watery nature and the difficulty of translating that to a workable, balanced gameplay iteration. I think the main ability that they would have is the obvious acid-spit stuff from SR1. Perhaps they could also have some sort of super-sonic screech ability or something to that effect?

GenFeelGood
26th Jan 2015, 03:17
Rahab certainly was fearful of Kain's wrath as all the lieutenants were, though his devotion to Kain also far exceeded the other lieutenants. As for his fear of the other lieutenants, his greatest fear before all this was probably a day when Kain might not be around to keep the lieutenants from killing each other; but I doubt he feared the lieutenants, maybe he feared the possibility of them joining together against him during Kain's absence like they did the Razielim (which is likely to also be part of the reason he joined in on that massacre).

calypso-694
26th Jan 2015, 04:45
in regards to their abilities, it isn't like that CANT have ranged abilities...look at the summoner. she has a bolt that you can throw and is able to summon spiritual bombs. the spit that these Sirens might have could be the same, it could act as a version of the Reavers choking hase only it slows down humans (because lord knows humans have plenty of those abilities) and seeing as how it will be either a primary or secondary ability itll have a cooldown so it cant be spammed. I think their escape ability (if its water based) they could summon a shield of water much like the reavers evasion only water coated OR they could mirror the tirents ignore pain ONNLY they grow scales and it shields them from damage for a short time. these girls are kains special forces like SWAT so they should be tactical and strong and fast. and their abilities don't always have to revolve around water or general SR lore. look at all the other classes so far, who would've even though that zephonim could control peoples mminds or cause maddening illusions? or that dumahim could turn into smoke and woosh across the land? those are totally out of the box. even the summoner is crazy in her abilities. I think whatever the devs come up with for abilities for these Sirens will sink right in to LOK and Nosgoth lore perectly. pun kind of intended.

Vampmaster
26th Jan 2015, 08:19
Well, I don't think it's fair that they use the no ranged excuse for not giving the Turelim any real telekinesis move and then go ahead and give ranged attacks to the Rahabim. The summoner was Psyonix's answer to the requests for a ranged class, so I think she's as ranged as the vampires are going to get. Also, I don't think Psyonix want the classes to have too much of the same abilities as each other. Perhaps if they gave the tyrants telekinesis in the form of some mid ranged gap closing ability or restrainment ability, then I could also accept a mid ranged attack for the Rahabim.

The developers have been basing most of the class's abilities around the personalities of their patriarch, so far and for Rahab, that is adoption to the environment and to the situation and to reach locations the other clans can't.

Keitaro767
29th Jan 2015, 14:35
The developers have been basing most of the class's abilities around the personalities of their patriarch, so far and for Rahab, that is adoption to the environment and to the situation and to reach locations the other clans can't.

True to that. Also factor in his unwavering devotion, his calm demeanor, and his view as being turned to a vampire as a form of redemption, we can safely conclude that his daughters (the Sirens) will also share his ideals. For a touch of sexual dimorphism among the Rahabim, the Sirens move faster than the male ones, which is more suitable if they will stand as Kain's SWAT team ...

Also, for their outfit, since they are going to be mobile, why not a kunoichi suit? The dev team can add Nosgothian designs and a touch of creativity for it to remain true to the lore. At first, I envision them wearing the highwayman's coat, but now I see them wearing a kunoichi suit reminiscent of Kitana's or Mileena's (but I still prefer Kitana's design any day .. :D )

Design no. 1:
http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/294/8/5/kitana_stolen_jade_costume_by_1chibihater-d5iglgk.jpg

Design no. 2:
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/119/2/b/kitana_by_hannahcombs-d63if7f.jpg

The masks can be removed :D

GenFeelGood
29th Jan 2015, 20:34
While we are looking for her to be somewhat pleasant to the eye, we are also wanting her be wear substantial light armor to fit her special forces background. One thing a lot of us wanna avoid is a sexualized female character, so skimpy attire isn't really what we are looking for. She is suppose to be a type of siren so the way they carry themselves fits.

Drebin162
30th Jan 2015, 13:08
An idea I've been tossing around revolves around smoke and fog effects, like a F escape ability that caused the Rahabim to emit a cloud and become a harder target, or using conical and projectile smoke attacks to obscure vision, I know the reaver has some of this but looking at the roles they have

Reaver - Generalist/Initiator
Tyrant - Disrupts Groups/Tank
Sentinel - Picks of single targets/
Deciver - Stealth/Single Target Damage
Summoner - Ranged disruption/Initiation

A Siren could get abilities to support other vampires and synergise with them like the alchemist, at the cost of losing one of the four attacker slots.

Gugulug5000
31st Jan 2015, 02:12
Okay, so diverting from the Siren idea, I've put together some ideas for a sabotage oriented Rahabim (possible names for the class include Saboteur, Infiltrator, and Agent). The Rahabim are described as special forces, and sabotage is part of that, so my ideas for the class would play on disrupting the humans. The physical appearance of the class is irrelevant (male, female, whatever) so that's left pretty open. I'm not sure of what would be primary or secondary, but I've got some ideas for a class build.

Mist Abilities:
They would have two distance closing options (both playing on mist form), the first was already mentioned in this thread by Razaiim "leaving a pool of mist with a strand connecting the rahabim so long as she's in range, and she can recall back to it." That would be kind of a quick escape move. The second would be a short 'mist teleport' where the Rahabim turns into mist and does a quick forward movement of about three paces. The move would have a low cool down so it can be used frequently. The Rahabim could use it to escape (though not as effectively as the first ability), or to do short jumps around a target to disorient them (appearing in front of behind of a person randomly). If you're having a hard time understanding what I mean, look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btR5wjo6eHE at around 7:30 and that will give you a good idea of what I mean (though not quite as fast).

Health Station Traps:
Simple enough, there could be a variation where the Rahabim plants a trap on the human's healing stations. Some variations include a version that does straight damage, one that slows the target for a period of time after the station is used (think slime trap), or one that resets the cooldowns of the human's abilities. There would need to be some indicator on the health station though so humans can actually spot and avoid it.

Spit Abilities:
Medium ranged spit abilities could be used to blind targets, deal straight damage, or slow targets. There could even be a variation that makes the target take extra damage from the Rahabim (similar to Mark Target, but it would only work for the Rahabim, not the whole team). That combined with the short mist blink ability would be cool in my opinion.

Physical Abilities:
I liked the idea that was mentioned about them having crazy shark-like jaws. They could use it to jump on targets and chew them up a bit (similar to the Reaver's pounce). We could make it so it doesn't deal a whole lot of damage, but make it so it also causes the humans to have longer cooldowns on their abilities (in keeping with the sabotage theme). An alternate could be a sliding attack where they rush forward, and do a sliding kick, knocking the human to the ground and causing a short stagger. I think these abilities would probably be the primary abilities (though maybe the mist ones would be a good option too).

There are some other abilities I liked, such as caltrops that I think could work well with these abilities, but sometimes less is more. So yeah, those are my ideas. Let me know what you think.

Ygdrasel
31st Jan 2015, 03:00
but there's nothing that says they didn't have powers like that

There's nothing that explicitly says Moebius didn't have tits hidden beneath his cloak either buuuut...Point being, Rahab wasn't a snake. :P

To operate within the game, I think their water affinity would have to be abstracted a bit by necessity. Mist powers (think water vapor) seem reasonable. A sort of dash move like that would be nice. Given the Rahabim's horrifying razor-toothed fish jaws, maybe they have a bite attack that leaves a lingering "bleeding" effect for a time. I keep picturing them at range using spitting attacks as well, either a damage thing or something that causes an obscuring effect (picturing a lens coated in water sort of thing). And I feel like they'd have a vertical jump of some kind, like a fish leaping from water (probably developed for quick retreats from light, given their excessive weakness to it).

To keep to lore, maybe light/fire-based weapons do extra damage to them. That'd give reason to keep a bit more at range and have quick mobility options.

Rahabim's difficult to figure though. I'm waiting for Melchiah's clan to debut one day myself.

Vampmaster
31st Jan 2015, 03:46
That day shall henceforth be known as Tuesday.

Ygdrasel
31st Jan 2015, 04:11
That day shall henceforth be known as Tuesday.

I refuse to call it Tuesday because then I'm obligated to quote the Street Fighter movie. So it will remain a mysterious unknown future day, and then become a past day.

Khalith
31st Jan 2015, 13:32
While we are looking for her to be somewhat pleasant to the eye, we are also wanting her be wear substantial light armor to fit her special forces background. One thing a lot of us wanna avoid is a sexualized female character, so skimpy attire isn't really what we are looking for. She is suppose to be a type of siren so the way they carry themselves fits.

Eric (the art lead) has already assured us that any female characters we get won't be sexy eye candy and that the alchemist is as pretty as the females in this game are going to get.

Edit: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=9623&page=2&p=84197#post84197



We have no intention of making gorgeous lady characters. No one will be spilling out of their armor while fighting vampires or humans. It just doesn't make sense in this context.

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=9623&page=2&p=84215#post84215

I can only comment on this point that the next vamp class is female (Corey mentioned this) but I can assure you that with what we have planned for her there's not a whole lot of sex appeal going on (I mean, I guess maybe someone somewhere will like it but.... eww). The women in this game are intended to be just as badass or bloodthirsty as the male characters, and having them run around looking like strippers is about as far off as we can get. I think it's safe to say that the Alchemist is the prettiest of all of them at this point. :p

Edit 2: The "next vamp class being female" refers to the Summoner in this specific post, NOT let me repeat NOT the Rahabim.

Keitaro767
31st Jan 2015, 18:20
Mist Abilities:
They would have two distance closing options (both playing on mist form), the first was already mentioned in this thread by Razaiim "leaving a pool of mist with a strand connecting the rahabim so long as she's in range, and she can recall back to it." That would be kind of a quick escape move. The second would be a short 'mist teleport' where the Rahabim turns into mist and does a quick forward movement of about three paces. The move would have a low cool down so it can be used frequently. The Rahabim could use it to escape (though not as effectively as the first ability), or to do short jumps around a target to disorient them (appearing in front of behind of a person randomly). If you're having a hard time understanding what I mean, look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btR5wjo6eHE at around 7:30 and that will give you a good idea of what I mean (though not quite as fast).

Health Station Traps:
Simple enough, there could be a variation where the Rahabim plants a trap on the human's healing stations. Some variations include a version that does straight damage, one that slows the target for a period of time after the station is used (think slime trap), or one that resets the cooldowns of the human's abilities. There would need to be some indicator on the health station though so humans can actually spot and avoid it.

Spit Abilities:
Medium ranged spit abilities could be used to blind targets, deal straight damage, or slow targets. There could even be a variation that makes the target take extra damage from the Rahabim (similar to Mark Target, but it would only work for the Rahabim, not the whole team). That combined with the short mist blink ability would be cool in my opinion.

Physical Abilities:
I liked the idea that was mentioned about them having crazy shark-like jaws. They could use it to jump on targets and chew them up a bit (similar to the Reaver's pounce). We could make it so it doesn't deal a whole lot of damage, but make it so it also causes the humans to have longer cooldowns on their abilities (in keeping with the sabotage theme). An alternate could be a sliding attack where they rush forward, and do a sliding kick, knocking the human to the ground and causing a short stagger. I think these abilities would probably be the primary abilities (though maybe the mist ones would be a good option too).


Veering a wee bit far from what is agreed upon ...

I think the dev team will avoid using abilities of the same spectrum (that is, if one class has already a Mist ability, any other Mist abilities will not be recognized. Think of it this way, if all vampires have access to poison, that completely locks the humans out without a chance of retaliation).

The Shadow Step is a Mist form ability. If the female Rahabim (because we do not have, once again, a CONCRETE idea to agree on) also has a Mist form, then it effectively loses the strategy that vampires require. The abilities must, first and foremost, be congruent to the design. Second, it must offer a unique gameplay experience. Having another Mist ability (whether offensive or not), completely mirrors the Reaver's gameplay of hit-and-run tactics. Also, having another ranged character completely makes having the Summoner somewhat in a downscale. With the Rahabim's saboteur skillset of polluting the human stations (a trap) automatically makes them more viable in the team. Add in their spit attacks, and you now effectively have a character that can act both as a Reaver and as a ranged vampire.

That is what we are trying to avoid here (Note: I do not intend to sound like a sourpuss ...)

Also, I completely withdraw my previous suggestion of having them wear kunoichi suits, but there are other kunoichi suits that cover every inch of skin possible, such as Taki's suit (SC series).

Sure, we'll avoid creating vixens.

GenFeelGood
31st Jan 2015, 18:25
Edit 2: The "next vamp class being female" refers to the Summoner in this specific post, NOT let me repeat NOT the Rahabim.

I know, but a lot of us are hoping (maybe slightly expecting) the Rahabim class to be female.

Zulgot
1st Feb 2015, 11:48
Yea Rahabim should be female... (2 female humans, 4 male humans - 2 female vampires, 4 male vampires).
In my opinion Rahabim could be very unique... Let's think out of the box - those ablities like venom spit are too overused in many games (even for example in Left for death, from where we have charge and pounce, so I really don't want to see that spit attack :D ). Or even that jaw attack - Deceiver already have single target powerful close range attacks.
Take a look at deceiver - he doesn't resemble spider at all. But his abilities speaks for his lore - he weaves web of intrigue.
Vampires in this game more resemble by personalities to devolved vampires than by appearance.
So what do we know about Rahabim? Think not only about appearance, but also about personality and how is their appearance and porsonality connected.
I played SL1 long time ago, but Rahab seemed to me to be most comfortable with his devolution, he was calm and proud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3Mu84Z_omM
Rahabim overcame obstacles, experimented and conquered their weaknes. They had vision and didn't give up. In the time of Nosgoth game, they are not crazy beasts spitting poison and biting with wide jaws. They are quite opposite in fact.
From LOK wiki - http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Rahab?file=Art-DanielCabuco-AWeaknessOvercome.jpg
I think, they should be most sane of all vampires. Other vampires focused on blood and havoc, but Rahabim focused on improving themself.
The role of buffer and debuffer is perfect in my opinion. They know how to improve themselfs (and their teammates) but they also know, how to make life harder for humans and induce their weaknes.

So the abbilities - 1) Slot for debuff - Instead of spit, they could have some nerve poison aoe of some sort, making human recoil bigger. Other debuff making them slower or another debuff maybe bigger cooldown.
2) Slot for buff - faster movement to all in some close range to her (maybe through magic). However i would like to see some more original buffs than this :D
3) I cant figure out right mouse button ability right now, so there is something for you to think about :D

Appearance: She could be cleaner than other vampires since she can bath :D

Vampmaster
1st Feb 2015, 13:21
As I've mentioned before, even the fledglings in SR1 were mutated enough to no longer remotely be mistaken for human. Their starting point was clearly related to how devolved their clan leader was. In Blood Omen 1 and 2, Kain already has a few vampiric features, as do even younger ones like Umah. I think it was a but if a mistake to have the Nosgoth vampires simply look like pale humans. I mean, the Turelim's musculature, probably isn't just because they work out a lot, the Dumahim probably have changes going on underneath the surface and Dumah himself was still sort of humanoid in SR1 as well. The Zephonim in this game have begun to evolve longer arms and legs even though they don't look like insects yet.

This is why I think the Rahabim could easilly have somd hidden changes going on under the surface of their skin. The teeth would remain hidden until they attack. Thats why I suggested the dislocatable jaw.

Another thing is that the devs have been careful to avoid and purely buff/debuff based class. It's no fun to have a class that doesn't generally get to kill anything or fend for itself in some way. It's also a bit of a stereotype, to have the female be the healer/buffer class.

The Rahabim should have a good range of abilities to adapt to many situations. A couple of attacks for the right mouse button, an buff/debuf on the first ability slit and then some tactical stuff on the second. The flesh and chaos armor suggestions are ways the Rahabim could modify itself to suit the situation. They would be spells or temporary physical changes where the Rahabim could absorb blood while attacking the enemy or dealing back to the enemy a portion of the damage they have received.

Knast_core
4th Feb 2015, 15:25
I join this discussion late, so pls don´t mind if i don´t read all the suggestions close.

My thought on this,

Female yes.

Cobra Hood and/or Snake tail - idk. I have to say i´m not to much into the Lore and the old Games. So in my case i´m fine if it´s not to close to it´s roots for Gameplay and variation on the Vamp side.

As far as i read myself into it. Her being Reptile themed would do the job. So here are my Ideas (stolen from mother Nature) for what she could capable of on the Battlefield.

Since Camouflage is already used by the Deceiver - the Chameleons are out! :)

Poison:

I see this as her main focus.

- Spitting Ability

- Ability to leave a trail of poison behind her. This my also slow down Humans

- As self defend. When she get´s attacked she can activate a poison Armor. So instead of her the attacker gets damaged. This just working on close range. like for every projectile or Hit she get, some poison sprinkles to the attacker.

- Desquamate - she leaves a shell of herself in front of the enemy to escape safely.

- regeneration of full body parts. Also something to escape may use to get out of a Bola early.

Cristari
4th Feb 2015, 15:49
Will we get Rahabim?

They are far to sensitive to light and are aquatic. I don't see this working at all in the game that we have we would need to introduce maps with water that would be hazardous to any of the other clans and you would need to introduce a swimming mechanic for the Humans!

I'd love to see it but it is the one clan that would break with lore if it were introduced in Nosgoth.

Vampmaster
4th Feb 2015, 16:03
Will we get Rahabim?

They are far to sensitive to light and are aquatic. I don't see this working at all in the game that we have we would need to introduce maps with water that would be hazardous to any of the other clans and you would need to introduce a swimming mechanic for the Humans!

I'd love to see it but it is the one clan that would break with lore if it were introduced in Nosgoth.

That's one of the reasons the reptile thing keeps being brought up. It makes a good intermediate state between mammal and fish that would be more suitable to the game mechanics. They're not fully devolved yet, so their traits don't need to be purely based around water. Also many of the abilities fish have besides swimming would still be useful to have on land.

Keitaro767
5th Feb 2015, 17:49
As far as i read myself into it. Her being Reptile themed would do the job. So here are my Ideas (stolen from mother Nature) for what she could capable of on the Battlefield.

Since Camouflage is already used by the Deceiver - the Chameleons are out! :)

Poison:

I see this as her main focus.

- Spitting Ability

- Ability to leave a trail of poison behind her. This my also slow down Humans

- As self defend. When she get´s attacked she can activate a poison Armor. So instead of her the attacker gets damaged. This just working on close range. like for every projectile or Hit she get, some poison sprinkles to the attacker.



Poison's already used in the Reaver's Choking Haze.
Also, spitting attacks are ranged, and we already have the Summoner for that.

IDK how they will implement the skin shedding, but it's a really nice touch (for being reptilian, that is). Maybe others can clip in other moves to fit the desquamate theme ...

ApollosBow
5th Feb 2015, 23:26
Like others have said:

-Acid spit that damages small radius of ground (smaller than haze) but also blinds like sunlight bomb if hit directly.

-Electric attack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_fish

-Like another fish - Payara (Vampire Characin) - known for its big fangs, something orientated around feeding, maybe move while feeding? OR the ability to carry & drag dead humans, effectively acting like a medic with 2 bodies...perhaps even some way to keep the bodies fresher for much longer, could lead humans to try and find the feeding grounds of the vamps (where the Rahabim hid the bodies) and every time a vamp feeds on a human body kept fresh the Rahabim would get xp.

XJadeDragoonX
6th Feb 2015, 15:00
I feel like everyone is so focused on a strict ranged vs melee here when clearly the game isn't that strict about it. For those who say the water spitting doesn't work because it's a ranged attack, have you not seen dive bomb, dominate mind, or basically the entire summoner kit? Having a ranged ability is no big. The water spit can even charge over the rahabims mouth like the summoner ability and shoot and maybe explode for quick aoe damage.

I also don't know why people keep talking about poison. Rahabim didn't use poison. there's literally no instance in the entire game that shows the rahabim use poison. You guys are reaching for something that isn't even in the lore whatsoever. Not only that, you basically want it to be his entire kit.

Not only that, everyone seems to feel the rahabim can't work because they are sea creatures. But if anyone played SR1, they know the only thing harder to kill than a turelim, was an out of the water rahabim. They were no joke.

Lastly, I feel like everyone is really caught up in this "wears cloaks" idea and the "move slow out of water". The rahabim were almost butt naked when you fought them. All vampires are vulnerable to light. Maybe the rahabim more so. But it doesn't change the fact that there is no sun in nosgoth to hurt them right now. Their vulnerability to sunlight would be completely irrelevant in this game with the exception of the alchemist light bombs. So the wearing a covering cloak makes no sense lorewise. Moving slow i can maybe see. However, i dont think they would be slow at this point in their evolution.

A lot of the ideas I see are great. But just don't fit. Rahabim are my favorite vampires. They don't deserve to be represented as something they arent. They deserve justice done to their lore and models just as much as the others

Vampmaster
6th Feb 2015, 15:34
I feel like everyone is so focused on a strict ranged vs melee here when clearly the game isn't that strict about it. For those who say the water spitting doesn't work because it's a ranged attack, have you not seen dive bomb, dominate mind, or basically the entire summoner kit? Having a ranged ability is no big. The water spit can even charge over the rahabims mouth like the summoner ability and shoot and maybe explode for quick aoe damage.

I also don't know why people keep talking about poison. Rahabim didn't use poison. there's literally no instance in the entire game that shows the rahabim use poison. You guys are reaching for something that isn't even in the lore whatsoever. Not only that, you basically want it to be his entire kit.

Not only that, everyone seems to feel the rahabim can't work because they are sea creatures. But if anyone played SR1, they know the only thing harder to kill than a turelim, was an out of the water rahabim. They were no joke.

Lastly, I feel like everyone is really caught up in this "wears cloaks" idea and the "move slow out of water". The rahabim were almost butt naked when you fought them. All vampires are vulnerable to light. Maybe the rahabim more so. But it doesn't change the fact that there is no sun in nosgoth to hurt them right now. Their vulnerability to sunlight would be completely irrelevant in this game with the exception of the alchemist light bombs. So the wearing a covering cloak makes no sense lorewise. Moving slow i can maybe see. However, i dont think they would be slow at this point in their evolution.

A lot of the ideas I see are great. But just don't fit. Rahabim are my favorite vampires. They don't deserve to be represented as something they arent. They deserve justice done to their lore and models just as much as the others

I agree about the sunlight. I'd been trying to compromise with those who insisted on the thick cloaks, but trying to come up with something protects from the sun, but is also sleek and water themed is just taking us around in circles.

The poison ideas are reasonable though. Daniel describes the projectile as a foul water bubble that would be dangerous to anyone except for other Rahabim:
http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16&p=19&hilit=rahabim#p19

It's got to be either poisonous or corrosive or something in order to be dangerous.

With the ranged vs melee, you can't really start duplicating abilities amongst classes. They should play differently to each other. The developers used the ranged vs melee excuse to avoid giving the Turelim their projectile, so they can't go back on it for the Rahabim. They've already said that the summoners will the the 'ranged' vampire class and while I think if they picked the wrong class to do that with, at least it's a bomb type rather than something to snipe with.

The_Hylden
6th Feb 2015, 17:29
I agree that the ranged attack vs. melee has been dubious from the start, though. While a long jump is not a projectile, nor shadow step, both make the Reaver cover a large distance as basically the projectile. While the wing pierce of the Sentinel is not a projectile, it accomplishes the same thing within a distance that's beyond the arm reach of the Sentinel. I do wish that the Tyrant still had a force push when humans get in close, or something like TK grab to hold them in the air if they get in close, ready for a slam by the mighty Tyrant FIST, heh, or their charge follow-up. Similarly, perhaps the Rahabim could shoot the water projectile when a human is within range, to stun and injure them when in close and break up their attack abilities momentarily.

Knast_core
6th Feb 2015, 17:46
I agree that the ranged attack vs. melee has been dubious from the start, though. While a long jump is not a projectile, nor shadow step, both make the Reaver cover a large distance as basically the projectile. While the wing pierce of the Sentinel is not a projectile, it accomplishes the same thing within a distance that's beyond the arm reach of the Sentinel.

But all of these are made to close the gab between you and the Human, to be in melee range. A Projectile doesn't stay in front of you and punch you in the face.
And you don´t do a long jump/shadow step or a wing pricing just to run away and do it again and again. This way the humans would just shoot you down on your second time doing it at the latest.

Of course there are exception and there should! But having a full range Vamp class would be broken. Summoner is just as far as they should go with it.
And without playing the Shield bearer, he looks like he´s the example o how far a human should go in case of being "melee".

This said i´m a friend of the Rahabim having some Range ability or attacks. But should stay in the theme of being deadly close up and dead if he´s staying away from Human.
It also seems to fit in lore - like Jade Dragon said, almost harder to kill than an Tyrant.

SpectralWraith
6th Feb 2015, 17:59
I thought the rahab clan evolved the water resistance because they had to (drowned abbey), not because they showed signs of being fish like before, besides each clan got one of kain's dark gifts where does the water resistance fits?

The_Hylden
6th Feb 2015, 18:01
What I said in the post about the water projectile was that it be used similarly to wing pierce, that it's an ability which is not spammed as a projectile, but merely a tool to stop an advancing opponent in close. It can't be used over and over quickly, or used when running away. It has to be in close. At the worst, were it to be used with range, it would be best to make it similar in intent to using the lobbed grenade from the Sentinel, Reaver, choking haze that was mentioned. Those abilities would be about the same as a measure on how to craft the water projectile.

Vampmaster
6th Feb 2015, 18:02
@SpectralWraith, like I said earlier, this is how Rahab looked when Raziel was first thrown into the abyss:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226155459/legacyofkain/images/2/20/SR1-Character-Rahab-Lake-Close.jpg

He already has gills and scales at that point.

BTW, should the water projectile be more powerful in this era than it ends up in SR1? Wouldn't their diaphragm (or whatever they use) start out weaker?

SpectralWraith
6th Feb 2015, 18:20
@SpectralWraith, like I said earlier, this is how Rahab looked when Raziel was first thrown into the abyss:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226155459/legacyofkain/images/2/20/SR1-Character-Rahab-Lake-Close.jpg

He already has gills and scales at that point.

BTW, should the water projectile be more powerful in this era than it ends up in SR1? Wouldn't their diaphragm (or whatever they use) start out weaker?

thanks mate, i forgot that.

btw some ideas should be

* as said before, the projectile (first ability)
* bite (like in soul reaver, a huge damn bite that deals tons of dmg) (second ability)
* the last ability should be something like waterlike movement (50% improved movement speed and 20% dodge chance for like 5 seconds, cannot atack only use ability bite, can dodge bola and stuff but can't dodge explosions)

Knast_core
6th Feb 2015, 18:30
What I said in the post about the water projectile was that it be used similarly to wing pierce, that it's an ability which is not spammed as a projectile, but merely a tool to stop an advancing opponent in close. It can't be used over and over quickly, or used when running away. It has to be in close. At the worst, were it to be used with range, it would be best to make it similar in intent to using the lobbed grenade from the Sentinel, Reaver, choking haze that was mentioned. Those abilities would be about the same as a measure on how to craft the water projectile.

Ok i got you wrong then, but i also dont see it being a game breaker if there would be a ability like that. Making sure it can´t get spammed. Some People will do it anyway like they do with the summoner to the disfavor of they´re teammates :/

calypso-694
6th Feb 2015, 18:31
I think we are looking at this way too literally. YES rahab has gills and scales by the time raz is thrown in and as indicated a few days ago by the Zephonim Evolved Skin, the lieutenants are more evolved during this war. Remember the war is taking place around 300 or so years AFTER raz got thrown in, plenty of time for them to even evolve further, Rahab at this point might resemble more of his shark like self a bit, the Zephonim are even using Zephons face as a scare tactic.

these are fledglings meaning [I]young[I] and although the rahabim end up being fish people they aren't right now. like I said way too literal with the abilities. I remember we all discussed that Deceivers should have spider like web abilities and looks, they ended up being scary SnM mentalists who are crazy. totally came from left field.

Sirens (as im calling the rahabim) are Kains special forces group, when I think special forces I think SWAT or ATF , breaching doors and taking guys out quick. Now we kinda have that with
Reavers already with the bombs and the hit and run tactics.
Tyrants are big hulk brutes who lightly use their strong mental abilities to augment their bodies for wars such as this
Sentinals although Artisans and magic based before the war, have become become air assassins (the Dive Bomb ability is probably a dash of their magic being used)

etc.

I remember reading something where Daniel (Cabuco) went over all the clans and how there personalities were and what they specialized in, might have been on his forum or a QA thing. maybe the devs will draw from that like they did with Summoner.

as far as the water projectile goes (sounds neat) I think what Hylden is trying to get as is, lets say a human is running a way and you use it, it almost acts as a hard push, like when ur in a pool and you splash someone with water....only its so hard it damages you. right?

XJadeDragoonX
8th Feb 2015, 21:35
Maybe instead of a water aoe spit idea, they could have a close range water last attack out of their mouth that they can channel for 5 seconds shooting constant water streams for DOT. Can work similarly to flamethrower

Allegos
8th Feb 2015, 22:01
Rahabim concept art (proposed) (https://www.google.com/search?q=lew+zealand+boomerang+fish&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=j9zXVLzZIeK1sATpxILIBw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1920&bih=965).

GenFeelGood
8th Feb 2015, 22:59
Rahabim concept art (proposed) (https://www.google.com/search?q=lew+zealand+boomerang+fish&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=j9zXVLzZIeK1sATpxILIBw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1920&bih=965).

Are you suggesting an ability where she tosses fish?

Razaiim
10th Feb 2015, 02:44
I'm still operating on the idea of them being scouts/explorers/trappers so I'm thinking they should have ways to handicap humans prior or during an engage, so things such as snares along common paths, sabotaging health stations, perhaps clearing hazards such as persistent damage effects, and adaptability, so maybe taking reduced damage from the most recent damage source (mostly effects human weapons and DoT). I think physical state and evolution/devolution should be more about aesthetic than gameplay decisive, and only be present in one or two skills if at all.

Ygdrasel
10th Feb 2015, 07:19
I'm still operating on the idea of them being scouts/explorers/trappers so I'm thinking they should have ways to handicap humans prior or during an engage, so things such as snares along common paths, sabotaging health stations, perhaps clearing hazards such as persistent damage effects, and adaptability, so maybe taking reduced damage from the most recent damage source (mostly effects human weapons and DoT). I think physical state and evolution/devolution should be more about aesthetic than gameplay decisive, and only be present in one or two skills if at all.

Sounds interesting.

So you got your sabotage skills on, say, the Q slot.

I frankly come up blank on the 'snare traps' front so I'm gonna stick to the station sabotage. Thinking a sort of bomb attached that 'deactivates' a station (like after one's used too often too soon) instead of healing, forcing the humans on the move or risk deaths waiting for the station to recharge. Another could sabotage the healing supplies themselves: The station heals as normal then deals back that healing as (slightly more?) damage after a delay - the initial heal could still be just enough for them to engage and kill a weakened vamp but then the damage could negate the heal and get them panicked at just the right moment to slip up and be mauled. Maybe one that, rather than healing, ends up stunning the user for a short time.

The implementation of such a thing as station sabotage would prove tricky though. Back when the Deceiver was getting a 'feign death' ability, the devs found in testing that everyone just mutilated every corpse found out of paranoia. If the tell on a sabotaged station was too obvious, the ability would become quite literally useless as people would just not bother. But if it's not obvious enough, you don't need to be Moebius to foresee the complaints.


So then we have 'adaptability' as the F-slot theme. A buff that cuts AoE damage by 50%, one that converts poison damage to a small healing factor, an 'extravision' type power that allows cloaked Scouts and such to be seen while it's active (think Predator) or a sort of 'bullet time' adaptation to negate Scout sniping, maybe a buff that grants a power boost (ala Enrage) when fallen victim to traps like turrets and shrapnel.


I'd like RMB to be the "attacks with their freakish snapping sharp-toothed jaws" slot. A melee-range one that deals higher damage but leaves them more open, a more pouncy one (I'm thinking visually of like a pissed-off barracuda jumping out of water after something. Like a Pounce but leading with the teeth) trading some damage for range (in the way a Reaver's kick is more "ranged" than his basic melee strike).

Kootkha
10th Feb 2015, 08:44
Didn't read all the theme, but I think a lot of people here are loosing smth very important to Rahabim's abilities.
They are not just water-like vamps, they also developed their thelekinetic powers. So there is a way for in-game thelekinezis. Like a "come over here" scorpions power from Mortal Combat. Draging his victim to close combat with him. Or thelekinetic nova causing all targets around vamp to knockdown for a while. Indeed focus on their thelekinetic power give devs a lot of other options to realize in this vamp.

Ygdrasel
10th Feb 2015, 09:18
Didn't read all the theme, but I think a lot of people here are loosing smth very important to Rahabim's abilities.
They are not just water-like vamps, they also developed their thelekinetic powers. So there is a way for in-game thelekinezis. Like a "come over here" scorpions power from Mortal Combat. Draging his victim to close combat with him. Or thelekinetic nova causing all targets around vamp to knockdown for a while. Indeed focus on their thelekinetic power give devs a lot of other options to realize in this vamp.

...When did Rahab or his offspring ever use or suggest any telekinetic power? Unless my memory's faulty, never at all.

That aside, telekinesis was a Turelim thing and Psyonix seems to want to limit that to less blatant things than "Come over here!" style mind tricks. Charge, ground slam and such show signs of incorporating telekinetic power to boost their effect but unless the devs heed some players' desires for more blatant powers tying into the clans unique gifts, I think that'll be the extent of it.

And "thelekinetic nova causing all targets around vamp to knockdown" is...Very nearly Tyrant's ground slam.

And it's telekinesis.

Kootkha
10th Feb 2015, 09:38
Well , according to this http://snorkeldragon.com/weewiki/doku.php?id=clans spit ability of rahabims had a telekinetic roots. Nova could work not in a manner slam works . Slam damaging and stuning , nova can be just knocking, but yes it's have smth in common. Well if to look further it might scatter people from the rahabim.

And in case if u didn't notice this language is not my native, so I can do mistakes , yes.

Ygdrasel
10th Feb 2015, 09:46
Well , according to this http://snorkeldragon.com/weewiki/doku.php?id=clans spit ability of rahabims had a telekinetic roots. Nova could work not in a manner slam works . Slam damaging and stuning , nova can be just knocking, but yes it's have smth in common. Well if to look further it might scatter people from the rahabim.

And in case if u didn't notice this language is not my native, so I can do mistakes , yes.

According to...What is that? Why is that credible? The Rahabim are never seen displaying telekinetic prowess. They do fire projectiles in Soul Reaver but that's not telekinesis, it's some kind of spitting thing. There are real-world fish that "spit" in a similar way and they are certainly not masters of telekinesis. I'm not terribly certain that a wiki based on a Megaman RPG is the most reliable information source for Legacy of Kain. o.o


Indeed you can! But on that same token, this language is my native so I can correct those mistakes. Learning is not a bad thing, my friend. Try not to take offense.

Kootkha
10th Feb 2015, 09:48
No offencse, dude. Just try to sound less arrogantly next time.

Also, if devs will grant rahabims a tail, it can be a comeback of reavers sweepingkick in it's former look. I mean tail kick could upset 1 target or several in front (or even around) the vamp, maybe just doing less damage then reaver's kick. And since this option is no longer working on reavers ability, it will not copy any existing vamps style of playing.

Vampmaster
10th Feb 2015, 10:34
...When did Rahab or his offspring ever use or suggest any telekinetic power? Unless my memory's faulty, never at all.

That aside, telekinesis was a Turelim thing and Psyonix seems to want to limit that to less blatant things than "Come over here!" style mind tricks. Charge, ground slam and such show signs of incorporating telekinetic power to boost their effect but unless the devs heed some players' desires for more blatant powers tying into the clans unique gifts, I think that'll be the extent of it.

And "thelekinetic nova causing all targets around vamp to knockdown" is...Very nearly Tyrant's ground slam.

And it's telekinesis.

It's not (AFAIK) the "come over here" type move that the devs have said they're opposed to, but rather the projectile orbs that that are launched in a straight line towards their target. That's the only type of telekinesis they've addressed and haven't really discussed other forms of it. They're basically opposed to letting the vampires have any perfectly targeted damage with unlimited use that the SR1 Turelim and Rahabim projectiles would have been.

I suggested a non-damaging come over here move for the Zephonim (using web) a long time ago was neither ruled out nor discussed since. Eric said there was an issue with players not liking to be dragged around the map, to which I responded that it was no worse than kidnap.

For the Turelim, I'd prefer something slower than the humans have a chance of escaping. They'd project a cone of telekinetic energy in front of them that while active would slowly pull humans within the Turelim's melee range. The human would have a chance of escaping by sprinting and rolling, but this would fill a gap in the Tyrant's skill set for situations where the player wants to get in a bit closer before attacking. Currently you either need a second Tyrant or the Ignore Pain skill to be much use.

The Rahabim's skill was not telekinetic, it was foul water spat at high pressure. Since you guys mentioned traps, how about a corrosive spray that can pass through ceilings? It would probably be unfeasible to actually have it burn holes in the environment, but it could damage humans inside the buildings as a way of flushing them out. I had a similar idea for the Turelim called resonance where they'd place their hands on the roof and the send telekinetic waves down through the building to accomplish the same sort of thing. Obviously, it would be redundant to have both the Rahabim and Turelim versions of that ability.

Kootkha
10th Feb 2015, 11:52
Another thought. We have almost all possible playstyles for Vamps. Stealth, Melee Power, Melee Fast, Range. Maybe the next outcome vamp should focus on controlling the target? Yes we actuall have Mindcontroll Deceiver ability. What I'm talking about is another sort of control, more combat style. Perhaps less damaging then other melee , but rather more usefull. Using stuns, knockbacks, Draging to ... , Upseting, Slowing or even Freezing. Class with less damage, but full of controls could be a irreplaceable one in team.

Ygdrasel
10th Feb 2015, 23:00
Another thought. We have almost all possible playstyles for Vamps. Stealth, Melee Power, Melee Fast, Range. Maybe the next outcome vamp should focus on controlling the target? Yes we actuall have Mindcontroll Deceiver ability. What I'm talking about is another sort of control, more combat style. Perhaps less damaging then other melee , but rather more usefull. Using stuns, knockbacks, Draging to ... , Upseting, Slowing or even Freezing. Class with less damage, but full of controls could be a irreplaceable one in team.

A vamp based solely around mind control...

That sounds like the only outcome is really annoying. It's miserable enough when a good Deceiver takes you over. Imagine a whole team taken over and the puppetmasters have access to attacks.

RainaAudron
11th Feb 2015, 10:26
Well , according to this http://snorkeldragon.com/weewiki/doku.php?id=clans spit ability of rahabims had a telekinetic roots.

That is really bad source to quote and not well written. Not to mention it contains lots of speculation and misinformation (no, Dumah´s fortress was not attacked by the Sarafan as they claim there).


There are real-world fish that "spit" in a similar way and they are certainly not masters of telekinesis.
Hehehe, nice one xD


Perhaps less damaging then other melee , but rather more usefull. Using stuns, knockbacks, Draging to ... , Upseting, Slowing or even Freezing.
We already have abilities like this - abduct takes you away from fight, pounce disables you from attacking, same as throw, etc. Kick used to have a very useful but quite OP knockback, which got consequently removed. Adding more abilities, which make the humans unable to move, is not a good idea, imo...


Also, if devs will grant rahabims a tail, it can be a comeback of reavers sweepingkick in it's former look.
Except they never grew a tail in the first place. Even as devolved creatures, they did not have it, only Rahab did and his appearance is more fish like than of his offspring.

Kootkha
12th Feb 2015, 02:58
Ok, just another suggestion. Rahabims are the masters of water, right? And Blood is almost a water, in a manner of speaking. And Blood is everyting in the world of Nosgoth. So, they can be blood-masters, healing and buffing vampires with less number of atack abilities. Like "boiling blood" for example. It's just a fantasy , like one of attack abilities could work: Spitting projectile affect 1 target and grants it not big DoT (about 2, 2.5 seconds) , then if there any other target in radius around the 1 target in chains to it with same duration , but with higher damage and etc. till all targets will be damaged.

Ygdrasel
12th Feb 2015, 05:22
Ok, just another suggestion. Rahabims are the masters of water, right? And Blood is almost a water, in a manner of speaking. And Blood is everyting in the world of Nosgoth. So, they can be blood-masters, healing and buffing vampires with less number of atack abilities. Like "boiling blood" for example. It's just a fantasy , like one of attack abilities could work: Spitting projectile affect 1 target and grants it not big DoT (about 2, 2.5 seconds) , then if there any other target in radius around the 1 target in chains to it with same duration , but with higher damage and etc. till all targets will be damaged.

Uh...They can swim. I'm not sure that qualifies as a "master of water" by even the most generous of definitions. I mean, we never even see them do a synchronized aqua ballet or win a single match of Blitzball. Lame fish.

That and the idea of manipulating blood is less Nosgoth, more World of Darkness (or Avatar but don't get me started on my longing for a great Avatar game.)

Much as the Zephonim's spidery ways were abstracted to deception and illusions for Nosgoth's gameplay, I'd imagine the Rahabim wouldn't be all too water-based either. I'm still hoping for a sabotage class. Projectiles seem to be the Summoner's forte.

Kootkha
12th Feb 2015, 14:48
Well, they actually spit water, no? In this way, they ARE masters of water in comparison with other vamps)))
Also, when I said projectile , I mean not range summoners style, but more common to hunters bola or scout knives. Smth working in a middle distance and with cornering fall.

Vampmaster
12th Feb 2015, 14:59
@Ygdrasel, actually Daniel said the Melchahim were blood manipulators. You can see this in their executions, although, they could use at least one spell related to that.

@Koothka, so basically water bombs. The think is, they can't have abilities too similar to other classes because that would get boring, they can't have an attack that's comparable to the range/rate of the human weapons for gameplay reasons and they can't have their full ability set from Soul Reaver 1, since they haven't devolved to that point yet.

GenFeelGood
12th Feb 2015, 17:01
@Ygdrasel, actually Daniel said the Melchahim were blood manipulators. You can see this in their executions, although, they could use at least one spell related to that.

Oh how I want her to have the Blood Gout spell


@Koothka, so basically water bombs. The think is, they can't have abilities too similar to other classes because that would get boring, they can't have an attack that's comparable to the range/rate of the human weapons for gameplay reasons and they can't have their full ability set from Soul Reaver 1, since they haven't devolved to that point yet.

Agreed

Gwiron
13th Feb 2015, 12:32
I came up with an idea of some sort throwing harpoon which pulls human towards your direction, followed by single bite. Just a thought.

Ygdrasel
13th Feb 2015, 17:41
I came up with an idea of some sort throwing harpoon which pulls human towards your direction, followed by single bite. Just a thought.

A...Harpoon? Because they swim? That's inching into camp, I think.

Vampmaster
13th Feb 2015, 17:59
A...Harpoon? Because they swim? That's inching into camp, I think.

CountEyokir, just posted this image of the Rahabim territory:


So a harpoon wouldn't be that inappropriate. Although, I will say I want the Dumahim to be the first class to use weapons as it was their specialty.

Ygdrasel
13th Feb 2015, 18:17
CountEyokir, just posted this image of the Rahabim territory:

So a harpoon wouldn't be that inappropriate. Although, I will say I want the Dumahim to be the first class to use weapons as it was their specialty.

I'd still wager harpoons were more likely a weapon used against them than one they used themselves. The idea of vampires using weapons in general seems a bit odd. They all had claws.

Gwiron
13th Feb 2015, 19:34
But using bombs is cool with you I presume? I hadn't thought about it in the category of weapons, more as a gadget.

Razaiim
13th Feb 2015, 20:51
I'd still wager harpoons were more likely a weapon used against them than one they used themselves. The idea of vampires using weapons in general seems a bit odd. They all had claws.

Doesn't seem that odd really. Raziel used a multitude of weapons in SR1 and SR2. I know the vampire held areas had spears out the wazoo on wall mounts, the dumahim were described as using weapons, and in the vampire civil war and Razielim extinction I'm sure many impalements and dismemberments were needed.

Ygdrasel
13th Feb 2015, 20:58
Doesn't seem that odd really. Raziel used a multitude of weapons in SR1 and SR2. I know the vampire held areas had spears out the wazoo on wall mounts, the dumahim were described as using weapons, and in the vampire civil war and Razielim extinction I'm sure many impalements and dismemberments were needed.

As long as we get somebody somewhere using katars. What do you suppose Dumah's brood preferred?

GenFeelGood
13th Feb 2015, 21:49
I do hope that the human class meant to challenge the Rahabim utilize the harpoon in some way. I also agree that there should be weapons in the hands of the vampires (I have been pushing for that since alpha); and the Dumahim should be first to get them, if they all can't get them at the same time.

On top of claws being the weapon of last resort throughout the Legacy of Kain series, it would be foolish to ignore the benefits of a weapon out of some notion that because you supernatural prowess then claws should be all you need.

Ygdrasel
13th Feb 2015, 23:11
I do hope that the human class meant to challenge the Rahabim utilize the harpoon in some way. I also agree that there should be weapons in the hands of the vampires (I have been pushing for that since alpha); and the Dumahim should be first to get them, if they all can't get them at the same time.

On top of claws being the weapon of last resort throughout the Legacy of Kain series, it would be foolish to ignore the benefits of a weapon out of some notion that because you supernatural prowess then claws should be all you need.

I suppose that's a valid point. Harpoon still seems odd though. Harpoons are a fishing tool and the Rahabim wouldn't be retreating underwater for some centuries to come.

Vampmaster
13th Feb 2015, 23:34
I suppose that's a valid point. Harpoon still seems odd though. Harpoons are a fishing tool and the Rahabim wouldn't be retreating underwater for some centuries to come.

Rahab already had gills and scales when he watched Dumah and Turel throw Raziel into the abyss. The evolution is said to be a result of the Rahabim intentionally exposing themselves to it to force their bodies to adapt. Even if Rahab had a head start over the rest of his clan, they wouldn't have simply waited to turn into fish-people before even going near the water.

Razaiim
15th Feb 2015, 19:35
Touch of derailment here: I'm curious as to what state the lieutenants are in. Zephon has his wierd split face which is a massive change, Rahab was already fishy some 300-500 years pre-nosgoth. Just how monstrous are they at this point in time.

GenFeelGood
16th Feb 2015, 02:27
I'd imagine Dumah is about where he was when he was vanquished. I think Rahab has fully adapted himself to water. Zephon is likely to be more sedentary like he was in Soul Reaver, controlling things more through the mind. Melchiah could have already begun building himself into a colossus, too bad when his clan goes crazy they can't maintain it so he ends up legless and dragging his nether regions on the ground. Turel is possibly beginning the transition to walking on all fours.

Vampmaster
16th Feb 2015, 09:59
I'd imagine Dumah is about where he was when he was vanquished. I think Rahab has fully adapted himself to water. Zephon is likely to be more sedentary like he was in Soul Reaver, controlling things more through the mind. Melchiah could have already begun building himself into a colossus, too bad when his clan goes crazy they can't maintain it so he ends up legless and dragging his nether regions on the ground. Turel is possibly beginning the transition to walking on all fours.

I actually think they'd all still be standing upright at this point. It's only 300 out of 1000 years worth of devolution. Early designs for Turel have him still on his feet in the SR1 era. His boss fight involved Raziel being a sort of matador with a blind Turel using echolocation *hint-hint* and scent to locate him. I heard he didn't even get sent back through time until some time after the events of SR1 and having him stay mobile for a bit before getting stuck in the pit leaves lots of doors for his story arc.

The Lieutenants would definitely have increased in size though. Turel's ears would be somewhere between the evolved Turelim and the really devolved Turelim from SR1, Dumah could have the green skin and dreads, probably pretty close to his SR1 form, since the staking halted his physical devolution, Rahab would definitely have his gills and scales, altered skin color and probably webbed hands and feet and a few fins on his back, but still have his feet. Zephon would have the split face, extra limbs and the insect like skin/exoskeleton, but not yet be fused to his lair or laying eggs. Melchiah would be a lot more humanoid than his final form, but still made up of a collage of stolen body parts.

lucinvampire
16th Feb 2015, 13:12
Ok this is just random thoughts nothing you know serious at all…

Electrocution
Poison
Paralysis
Water magic

…ooh ooh and they should have one of the achievements called “trout slapping” and include the dance :lol:

Ok I’m going now :whistle:

Sorry.

GenFeelGood
16th Feb 2015, 14:37
Interesting, I hadn't considered Rahab using electricity. That might give the Rahabim class some nice abilities; and since Rahab idolized Kain, he might have been focused on emulating Kain's lightning spell before the change made employing it an enviromental hazard. I am thinking a chain lightning that serves as an aoe, it strikes 1 human and carries to attack others that get too close them.

Vampmaster
16th Feb 2015, 14:52
Interesting, I hadn't considered Rahab using electricity. That might give the Rahabim class some nice abilities; and since Rahab idolized Kain, he might have been focused on emulating Kain's lightning spell before the change made employing it an enviromental hazard. I am thinking a chain lightning that serves as an aoe, it strikes 1 human and carries to attack others that get too close them.

The Rahabim could grab onto the human, damaging it and stunning any others nearby, perhaps damaging them to a lesser extent. It would sort of flow along the ground as if it has struck a puddle of water. Or basically just an electrified floor.

lucinvampire
16th Feb 2015, 16:34
Yeah was thinking along the lines of electric-eels. :)

Another could be like a goo-slim, like a jellyfish consistency...that could slow or something? heh ok not sure how that would work. :p

Vampmaster
16th Feb 2015, 16:46
Yeah was thinking along the lines of electric-eels. :)

Another could be like a goo-slim, like a jellyfish consistency...that could slow or something? heh ok not sure how that would work. :p

You mean like hagfish slime?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb2EOP3ohnE

lucinvampire
16th Feb 2015, 17:17
You mean like hagfish slime?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb2EOP3ohnE

Omg yes something like that! Goo attack :thumb:

I thought of another a siren call (no not singing) more a screeching- deafening enemies and nullifying abilities, or could have it lure the enemy towards you and slowing any attack.

Ok way too many thoughts for Monday! I've used my quota for the week :p

Ygdrasel
16th Feb 2015, 17:28
I heard he didn't even get sent back through time until some time after the events of SR1

Dumah could have the green skin and dreads

If that's right, then that means Raziel left Turel to terrorize the wasteland for some time...Jerk. And when did Dumah have dreads? o.o

Rahabim as electric eels...That has possibilities.

Vampmaster
16th Feb 2015, 17:38
If that's right, then that means Raziel left Turel to terrorize the wasteland for some time...Jerk. And when did Dumah have dreads? o.o

Rahabim as electric eels...That has possibilities.

Dumah with dreads.
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/File:SR1-Misc-ActionFigure-Dumah.jpg

He normally wears a steel mask.

Ygdrasel
16th Feb 2015, 18:00
Dumah with dreads.
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/File:SR1-Misc-ActionFigure-Dumah.jpg

He normally wears a steel mask.

I see something that might be dreads. Could also be weird skull protrusions. I gotta get my hands on these figures. XD

PencileyePirate
16th Feb 2015, 18:44
Dumah with dreads.
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/File:SR1-Misc-ActionFigure-Dumah.jpg

I'm pretty sure those are the skull protrusions replicated on the evolved Reaver skin.

Vampmaster
17th Feb 2015, 11:36
I just meant they resembled dreads. I didn't really know what else to call them.

Keitaro767
1st Mar 2015, 02:58
maybe if the female Rahabim have the proportions similar to Bayonetta (ie: exaggerated limb lengths), that will definitely show their fluid movements. Of course, they must be clothed modestly :)

XJadeDragoonX
1st Mar 2015, 19:33
If there's anything we've learned from Nosgoth, it's thay there's probably no way that the rahabim will in any way be like they were in soul reaver. Psyonix will most likely make them very different from some sort of twist in the lore. I'm sure it will be awesome. But we are probably all thibking about this the wrong way lol. When the summoner was revealed I was like well this is nothing like soul reaver. But Still awesome. Hopefully we get some kind of concept art soonish

Vampmaster
1st Mar 2015, 20:19
If there's anything we've learned from Nosgoth, it's thay there's probably no way that the rahabim will in any way be like they were in soul reaver. Psyonix will most likely make them very different from some sort of twist in the lore. I'm sure it will be awesome. But we are probably all thibking about this the wrong way lol. When the summoner was revealed I was like well this is nothing like soul reaver. But Still awesome. Hopefully we get some kind of concept art soonish

Give them some time. These last two classes took about 8 months to make and there's still a lot of work scheduled in first. Whether or not they are showing physical changes, the seafaring nature should still be part of their culture and reflected in their clothing etc. It would be a mistake for them to not even have the same mindset as Rahab did. All of the clans so far have been based around their leader's personality, and Rahab was really into exploration and adaption. There are plenty of human cultures that revolved around that.

I like the idea of vikings in their longships. That could possibly suit them. I had this idea of if you took the concept of a valkrie's armour, but then swapped out the feathers for fins and wave designs on the armour. Maybe they'd be into scalemail type armour or maybe something like atlantians are sometimes imagined to dress.

CountEyokir
1st Mar 2015, 21:43
I like the idea of vikings in their longships. That could possibly suit them. I had this idea of if you took the concept of a valkrie's armour, but then swapped out the feathers for fins and wave designs on the armour. Maybe they'd be into scalemail type armour or maybe something like atlantians are sometimes imagined to dress.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/ageofempires/images/f/ff/Oceanus.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111015151726
http://media.gamespy.com/columns/image/6556_2004-03-22_01s.jpg
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/ageofempires/images/2/22/Leviathan.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100116155800
http://www.entdepot.com/pc/aomtitans/s13p.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UC5gkEW.png

Vampmaster
2nd Mar 2015, 11:12
It's difficult to tell with the bright colours and cartoonish art style in those pics. Those look more Roman to me, although I'm struggling to find reference pics that match what I was thinking of.

CountEyokir
2nd Mar 2015, 11:47
It's difficult to tell with the bright colours and cartoonish art style in those pics. Those look more Roman to me, although I'm struggling to find reference pics that match what I was thinking of.

fg_OlKVK_rA Atlantean units from Age of Mythology fit the bill I think - finding good pics of them though is hard. Try from 1:46 here

Vampmaster
2nd Mar 2015, 11:58
It's still not what I was thinking of in my suggestion, but it could work with the right colour scheme.

GenFeelGood
8th Mar 2015, 05:59
I was actually picturing more of a Mediterranean style for the Rahabim, like the Ancient Greeks or Romans.

Vampmaster
9th Mar 2015, 10:26
I guess something like this could work, but it should have green and blue colours in some of the patterns I mentioned on the other page:
https://toomanyposts.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/300-2-green.jpg

The guys at the back look more suitable for Dumahim due to his clan's samourai-like theme. It also looks similar to the hunter prestige skin, but I think the Ironguard lived close to Dumahim territory, so maybe the picked up on sort of the same culture.

Ygdrasel
10th Mar 2015, 01:56
a valkrie's armour, but then swapped out the feathers for fins and wave designs on the armour.

Couldn't do waves but I was bored so I found a valkyrie and swapped out its feathers (http://i.imgur.com/5gKevlc.png).

Vampmaster
10th Mar 2015, 12:57
Couldn't do waves but I was bored so I found a valkyrie and swapped out its feathers (http://i.imgur.com/5gKevlc.png).

I was thinking they'd be more like this type:
https://cms-assets.tutsplus.com/uploads/users/108/posts/21955/image/how-to-draw-fish-2-2-draw-fins3.png

Also, like I was saying, I think vikings could work pretty well too:
http://i0.wp.com/www.tv-eh.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Vikings.jpg

MysteryOne
14th Mar 2015, 06:27
I think Rahabim class should be second female class for the vampires, that'd make it even with humans in the game. Id' be happy.
Other than that i'm not sure how it could work in the game (unless it's reptilian-like with fins).

GenFeelGood
15th Mar 2015, 02:08
One angle that hasn't been covered yet is that of a diffuser, able to cancel prolonged aoe fields like firewall, drain curse, volley, and turret.

XJadeDragoonX
15th Mar 2015, 14:44
Tha diffusing aoe idea is awesome. Great idea and definitely would be beneficial to the kind of class I feel the rahabim will be.

On a side note, I feel the constant call for the rahabim to be female and for more female classes is pretty annoying. I'm all about new female classes and diversity. But the concept gets ruined by so many people demanding it. Focus less on gender and more on things that are actually relevant to the overall kit the rahabim would possess. Gender is irrelevant as long as we all make sure the character is a badass

Vampmaster
15th Mar 2015, 15:01
Tha diffusing aoe idea is awesome. Great idea and definitely would be beneficial to the kind of class I feel the rahabim will be.

On a side note, I feel the constant call for the rahabim to be female and for more female classes is pretty annoying. I'm all about new female classes and diversity. But the concept gets ruined by so many people demanding it. Focus less on gender and more on things that are actually relevant to the overall kit the rahabim would possess. Gender is irrelevant as long as we all make sure the character is a badass

There are plenty discusions of abilities in this thread. There's no rule that says we can't also discuss the aestheics and appropriateness to the lore background as well. The visuals and ability explanations aren't going to put that much restriction on the abilities are they?

BTW, the whole class doesn't need to be a diffuser. That would be fine as just one ability. The Rahabim were known for adapting to their environment and clearing out hazards would be one good example, but there should be some flexibility. I'm still keen on the recover-health-from-attacks and return-damage-to-the-attacker buffs I meantioned previously. Those would make great examples of the Rahabim's superior adaption skills, whatever the names/explanations for those abilities. With the second one, you'd have the humans hesitant to attack you, which would add to the gameplay by forcing the humans to use a different tactic.

GenFeelGood
15th Mar 2015, 19:15
Why not have both, it cancels the aoe by absorbing them and channeling them into an attack?

Edit
Maybe more than just damaging aoe, Healing Hist and Rousing Cry could also be channeled into a restorative effect.

Vampmaster
15th Mar 2015, 19:32
Why not have both, it cancels the aoe by absorbing them and channeling them into an attack?

Edit
Maybe more than just damaging aoe, Healing Hist and Rousing Cry could also be channeled into a restorative effect.

I wasn't talking about your area of counter effect, I was talking about a status effect that the Rahabim casts on itself like Enrage or Haste, or Evasion, etc. Yours would be one big heal, mine would would be more tactical. Like a deterrant for humans and a unique way to recover for the Rahabim.

GenFeelGood
15th Mar 2015, 20:00
I wasn't talking about your area of counter effect, I was talking about a status effect that the Rahabim casts on itself like Enrage or Haste, or Evasion, etc. Yours would be one big heal, mine would would be more tactical. Like a deterrant for humans and a unique way to recover for the Rahabim.

Gotcha, so how are you picturing it, she triggers the ability and her melee damage gets a flat buff because with each strike she is also leeching an amount of health that restores her as she presses the attack or with each strike her melee damage steadily increases?

Vampmaster
15th Mar 2015, 20:59
Gotcha, so how are you picturing it, she triggers the ability and her melee damage gets a flat buff because with each strike she is also leeching an amount of health that restores her as she presses the attack or with each strike her melee damage steadily increases?

It's two separate abilities. The health recover works sort of like you said, while the spell is in effect, and melee strike restores some health. The other one is while the spell is effective, and standard damage received does a portion back to the attacker.

jmedilevilir
15th Mar 2015, 21:10
Rahab was extremely devoted to Kain so I guess the developers are going to build the way the new class will look and act around that

Vampmaster
15th Mar 2015, 21:46
Rahab was extremely devoted to Kain so I guess the developers are going to build the way the new class will look and act around that

How does that transtake into abilities though? The religious aspect to him is purely based on the fact that he said "blasphamous". One word isn't much to go on and he said a lot more about adaptions and overcoming limitations.

jmedilevilir
15th Mar 2015, 22:05
How does that transtake into abilities though? The religious aspect to him is purely based on the fact that he said "blasphamous". One word isn't much to go on and he said a lot more about adaptions and overcoming limitations.
i said nothing about the abilities, i was just talking about the aesthetics.

GenFeelGood
15th Mar 2015, 22:19
Rahab was extremely devoted to Kain so I guess the developers are going to build the way the new class will look and act around that

I hope it just gets referenced in the lore, we don't need a vamp class that's look screams "Kain Groupie!"

jmedilevilir
15th Mar 2015, 22:27
I hope it just gets referenced in the lore, we don't need a vamp class that's look screams "Kain Groupie!"

did i say something about being nuts over kain?

XJadeDragoonX
16th Mar 2015, 02:11
A class with lifesteal would be epic. Ive always been a big fan of lifesteal and its usualy the playstyle i use in games i play.

Vampmaster
16th Mar 2015, 10:51
A class with lifesteal would be epic. Ive always been a big fan of lifesteal and its usualy the playstyle i use in games i play.

Having it be a status effect rather than an AoE/one-shot attack would keep it distinct from the Prophet's abilities. I like to emphasise that the Rahabim are adapting their bodies to suit the situation, which this would be a good example of. It's also a nice nod to Kain's flesh armor in Blood Omen.

Sol_Mithras
16th Mar 2015, 14:03
What roles had the Rahabim in the Empire?

Vampmaster
16th Mar 2015, 14:13
What roles had the Rahabim in the Empire?

Artisans, Explorers and Special Forces
http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=162&p=486#p486

Ygdrasel
16th Mar 2015, 21:31
Rahab was extremely devoted to Kain so I guess the developers are going to build the way the new class will look and act around that

They were all devoted to Kain...

I'm still leaning toward the saboteur/adaptability angles. Traps, buffs, etcetera...

GenFeelGood
17th Mar 2015, 05:41
The other one is while the spell is effective, and standard damage received does a portion back to the attacker.

How do you picture that being executed? I have been pondering that and came up with 2 scenarios where I see something like that happening (in both instances I picture her becoming hardened by a layer of scales and unable to attack during this time but protected from being dealt full damage), 1) as they attack her she is storing up the increasing amounts of energy generated by the shots and subsequently releasing it in a single aoe blast 2) Functions sort of like a tuning fork, as she is struck her body reverberates waves of energy from the hits that cause harm to all humans in close proximity (so as the human shoot at her they are doing more harm than good, especially when trying to save a teammate down range).

Vampmaster
17th Mar 2015, 10:08
How do you picture that being executed? I have been pondering that and came up with 2 scenarios where I see something like that happening (in both instances I picture her becoming hardened by a layer of scales and unable to attack during this time but protected from being dealt full damage), 1) as they attack her she is storing up the increasing amounts of energy generated by the shots and subsequently releasing it in a single aoe blast 2) Functions sort of like a tuning fork, as she is struck her body reverberates waves of energy from the hits that cause harm to all humans in close proximity (so as the human shoot at her they are doing more harm than good, especially when trying to save a teammate down range).

Nah, I wasn't thinking of anything that complicated. The Rahabim would cast some spell on themselves represented by some sort of aura or colour change, then every time a human landed a hit with their standard attack, they would receive a portion of the same damage themselves. As for how that would be represented visually, I thought I'd leave that to the developers. It could be some small energy orb or spark, chemical or blood or spike or something that flies back to the attacker. Whatever looks best.

Ygdrasel
18th Mar 2015, 03:56
Nah, I wasn't thinking of anything that complicated. The Rahabim would cast some spell on themselves represented by some sort of aura or colour change, then every time a human landed a hit with their standard attack, they would receive a portion of the same damage themselves. As for how that would be represented visually, I thought I'd leave that to the developers. It could be some small energy orb or spark, chemical or blood or spike or something that flies back to the attacker. Whatever looks best.

Were the Rahabim big spellcasters?

Vampmaster
18th Mar 2015, 08:31
Were the Rahabim big spellcasters?

Were the Turelim and Dumahim? They have haste, evasion and enrage. All the clans could fo magic to some degree and status effects on themselves is relatively simplistic compared with what the Melchahim could do.

Sanguise23
18th Mar 2015, 13:33
Were the Turelim and Dumahim? They have haste, evasion and enrage. All the clans could fo magic to some degree and status effects on themselves is relatively simplistic compared with what the Melchahim could do.

i dont think some of these abilities are magic like haste, but are just vampiric powers (which is slightly different IMO)

Vampmaster
18th Mar 2015, 15:16
i dont think some of these abilities are magic like haste, but are just vampiric powers (which is slightly different IMO)

OK, stronger evidence:

So I imagine he'd start draining blood while exposing himself to water more and more. Casting Kain's water breathing and protection spells so often that they'd weave themselves into his being. Taking one of Kain's gifts and turning it into his entire being.. Kain could only resist water temporarily.. but what if Rahab could actually ADAPT to it! He'd be so powerful and valuable.. he and his kind could go places others never could.. not even Raziel! That kind of motivation and jealousy strikes true with me.
So he'd burn and heal, drink blood and immerse.. perhaps doing so at the same time (Telekinetically drinking) until the image I painted happened: The gills.. the GILLS! They symbolize his newfound power, one that he would present to Kain in court, to drive the others into jealousy and supplication to him. He'd move up the chain of value.. become Kain's favored for that decade.. maybe that century!
The pain didn't matter.. only success..

http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=648&p=2542

Ygdrasel
18th Mar 2015, 18:00
OK, stronger evidence:


http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=648&p=2542

What is that meant to be evidence of, exactly? That Rahab trained himself to overcome water? Because that's already known...

I'd always figured (and still do because instantaneous development plainly contradicts Raziel's own description of it) that the 'state of change' was a sort of sleep or stasis if not necessarily a cocoon, with evolutions occurring over time but able to be influenced. Basically, Rahab did the above, entered the change state, then found himself emerging with some water-adaptive new thing to compensate his experimentation...Then continued to direct his changes toward that path, ultimately becoming what we see in Soul Reaver.


Rahab never struck me as especially sadistic though (relatively speaking, of course; He is still a vampire.) so I'm iffy on the Chaos Armor-esque 'damage dealt is returned' idea. That seems more a Melchahim thing. Melchiah was the sadistic type to be sure. Giant human grinder and all.

Something akin to BO's blood gout, though. Rahabim needs to hurt the enemy, also needs to feed. Enemies stay at range, preventing either. Rahabim adapts...

Vampmaster
18th Mar 2015, 18:19
What is that meant to be evidence of, exactly? That Rahab trained himself to overcome water? Because that's already known...

No, that they used magic to help them do it. They can't adapt to the new environment if they die before they can adjust. Did you think they just decided "I really want to be a fish", then never went near the water until they were fully immune?

The spells and endurance tests are like an investment that only really pays off when the time comes to evolve.

The chaos armour type ability isn't about being sadistic, it's a deterent ability. An example of both his intelligence (forcing the enemy into a sort of of stalemate) and his ability to adapt himself to the situation.

GenFeelGood
28th Mar 2015, 04:49
Just finished watching the March 27 dev stream and it looks like we have a lot to look forward to. The Crucible looks brutal, gritty, and fun. We don't know what the next map is but we know its not gonna be in the territory of the Dumahim. The prestige alchemist looks great (a bit on the regal side, compared to her other skins) and the scout looks absolutely badass (that look, wearing a skull mask under his hood, makes me think of Skeletor when I look at him:D). Lets see, did I forget anything, oh yeah

THE RAHABIM CLASS IS GOING TO BE FEMALE!

(unless the next vampire class isn't from the Rahabim, in which case I will be beyond pissed off)