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qJohnnyp
17th Jan 2009, 19:11
DX3 is near future. There are bound to be some AK47s and M16s floating about in the 2020s. So it would make sense to bring some of these into play.


All those AKs and M16s will be ~70 yrs old by then... (unless you mean younger constructions based on those like the HK416 and AK-103)

Blade_hunter
17th Jan 2009, 23:51
Perhaps but I don't think there is any real weapons in DX 3 like it was in DX, and in DX was in 2052 and in 2052 we should have one of our usual weapons even thos most modern real prototypes, but no.

DX uses original weapon models even if some of them looks very classic, instead of half life that uses modified real weapons mixed with totally fictional ones.

I don't know why most players wants always to see the same weapons in games (ak 47 and m16) is it because they were all Counter strike fans or what ?

I think some originality is welcome, no ?

Even if I often complain about the Assault rifle's lack of power I appreciate it's own design and it's not a known weapon...
And some weapons are a sort of DX trademark, if I say I like to plays with the M 42A pulse rifle or the smart gun they say yeah it's from AVP, but if I say Dragon tooth, they would say oh yeah it's my favorite sword from DX !

IF I say M4 or M16 or Ak 47 how much games uses them. unique weapons, original and good ones is the best way put a DX mark even on the weaponry ...

K^2
18th Jan 2009, 00:13
All those AKs and M16s will be ~70 yrs old by then...
And the AKs will still be firing just fine. Not sure about M16s. Perhaps, M16 really would be unrealistic.

But yeah, newer AK versions might be a bit more reasonable. Point is, they are still being manufactured in great quantity with various degree of variation. There are a lot of the older models floating about. From game perspective, a difference between AK47, 74, and 103 is negligible. It can be the same rifle. And since there is no reason to expect significantly fewer of these being around in 2020s, and if anything being a lot cheaper, I'm sure there will be a lot of PMCs and criminal groups using them. So encountering them in the game would be very reasonable.

In contrast, however, I'd expect to see government and police forces to use something different. Probably something entirely made up by developers.

NK007
18th Jan 2009, 15:39
Because standardization is the future. I imagine a good, reliable, powerful, fairly light assault rifle or sub-machine gun to be the future. I assume that the AK 47 will be used as some sort of blueprint. All following versions will be "Future assault rifles model - (grenade launcher, sniper, etc.).

qJohnnyp
18th Jan 2009, 15:56
IF I say M4 or M16 or Ak 47 how much games uses them. unique weapons, original and good ones is the best way put a DX mark even on the weaponry ...

I agree with you, Deus Ex should have original weapon designs.

But there's a sad fact about games today...
There's a lot of new weapon models, rarely (if ever) used in games. Designers are just too lazy to do some research or modeling. Today's games all still seem to be copying Counter Strike:mad2: ! Or maybe it's the gamers who like to stick to those guns done a 100th time. Because nothing is better than the good american M16, DUH! And the terrorists will always use AKs!

I haven't ever seen many futuristic, very beautiful (or plain strange) weapons in games: ARX-160, Steyr AMR, AICW (ok, it was in Splinter Cell CT, but only for enemies) and ACR, different Tavor rifles, the SSW system, Calico series of guns, Kriss Super V SMG, Magpul PDR, FMG9 and Masada (ACR), Croatian VHS, Daewoo Dar-21, Auto Assault-12, DTA SRS sniper rifle, XM-26 shotgun, the Neostead, chinese QBU and QBZ, AMP DSR-1 sniper rifle, Crye MCR (ok, that we saw in GRAW).... the list goes on. Hell, even the legendary G11 and CAWS aren't popular at all.
Go check them out, they all look like something taken from a Sci-Fi movie, not an actually working firearm. If they were put in a Deus Ex game, most players wouldn't even realise those are for real. And by 2027, they wouldn't really get old.

qJohnnyp
18th Jan 2009, 16:18
But yeah, newer AK versions might be a bit more reasonable. Point is, they are still being manufactured in great quantity with various degree of variation. There are a lot of the older models floating about. From game perspective, a difference between AK47, 74, and 103 is negligible. It can be the same rifle. And since there is no reason to expect significantly fewer of these being around in 2020s, and if anything being a lot cheaper, I'm sure there will be a lot of PMCs and criminal groups using them. So encountering them in the game would be very reasonable.

The AK design has been copied >9000 times in every country, for every ammo type, and the design will propably still be there in 2020s, sure. But you did write about AK47... Which I actually wouldn't expect to still float about by the 2020s. My only grudge. Apart from the naming, weight and ammo type, the difference IS negligible.
Same applies for the Stoner system. A very popular design, mostly known for the venerable M16 (AR10). But even the newest and best weapons are still based on the system, so the old look of an M16 will remain, though the old M16 models won't be seen for a long time.

LatwPIAT
18th Jan 2009, 16:23
I haven't ever seen many futuristic, very beautiful (or plain strange) weapons in games: ARX-160, Steyr AMR, AICW (ok, it was in Splinter Cell CT, but only for enemies) and ACR, different Tavor rifles, the SSW system, Calico series of guns, Kriss Super V SMG, Magpul PDR, FMG9 and Masada (ACR), Croatian VHS, Daewoo Dar-21, Auto Assault-12, DTA SRS sniper rifle, XM-26 shotgun, the Neostead, chinese QBU and QBZ, AMP DSR-1 sniper rifle, Crye MCR (ok, that we saw in GRAW).... the list goes on. Hell, even the legendary G11 and CAWS aren't popular at all.
Go check them out, they all look like something taken from a Sci-Fi movie, not an actually working firearm. If they were put in a Deus Ex game, most players wouldn't even realise those are for real. And by 2027, they wouldn't really get old.

The G11 and CAWs were in Fallout 2. But I agree. Whare are all the cool guns that makes everyone but gun enthusiasts think they just made them up? Heck, even a FAMAS would be nice once in a while. How about AN-94s, or a FN Minimi, maybe a WA2000 lookalike, or a modernized Stoner 63? An F2000 maybe? A Valmet M82 for obscurity? The Vector CR-21 certainly looks futuristic!

Blade_hunter
18th Jan 2009, 19:21
AK and M16 designs were copied, yes

the USAS 12 for example is a copy from the M16 but it's a shotgun, the AK design were used by most contries the even SIG assault rifles follow the AK design.

but we can use original models even if they look to be a mix between existing weapons. I see many weapon prototypes and most of them are cool by their design.

But the thing is many players wants to got M16 and AK47
It's one of the reasons they play CS and most of them claims CS is realistic all the way and all the time.

Fallout has always used real weapons with futuristic ones Stalker too, that's not the case of DX, DX got real ammo with futuristic guns.

The GEP gun is one of my favorite rocket launchers seen in games and it's not a real gun.

If I want a LAM thrower, I can't because it's not a real weapon and it would be more funny to stick LAMs at people that firing an M79 at people.
If I want an assault rifle with an underbarrel compact RPG launcher I can't because it doesn't exists...
If I want a portable minigun, I can't too, If I want and ACR with a multifunctinal underbarrel shotgun I can't too
And a rocket launcher that fire grenades (oh noo it's too close to quake :eek: )
If I want a machine gun that fire shotgun shells I can't because it's not real
And the worst thing a beam rifle and a lightening gun !

If I like non real weapons it's more about their concept and uses than the existing fact.

but I will loose anyway

Romeo
19th Jan 2009, 00:23
The Calico was used in one of the James Bond games (Agent Under Fire, I do believe) and a number of the weapons you listed found their way into Battlefield: Bad Company. I have to say though, for the most part though, there's a reason we typically see similar weapons in games: They're legendary. Few people have never heard of the Desert Eagle, and as such, the weapon frequently makes and appearence into the entertainment world, even though many people in the real world dislike it's unmanagable recoil and excessive size. Same goes for the Steyr AUG, the Barrett .50 Cal, the M16, the AK-47 and the Uzi. It's not that they don't have creativity, it's just you have to throw in weapons people recognize, or all too often people lambaste it for being too isolated. And if you want sci-fi weapon, put in the BFG from the Doom movie (the game's one is alright, but lacks the visual flair of the movie's).

Blade_hunter
19th Jan 2009, 02:58
I think more original weapons than totally sci fi even if they are classic

http://www.3dactionplanet.com/redfaction/dp/images/art/rf/weapons/heavy_machine_gun_sm.jpghttp://www.3dactionplanet.com/redfaction/dp/images/art/rf/weapons/railgun_sm.jpghttp://www.the-spoiler.com/Sinjin/DEUSEX/a-rifle.jpghttp://screenshots.filesnetwork.com/2/news/680.jpghttp://www.soldier-of-fortune.com/sof/images/weaps/weaps_mpg.jpghttp://www.soldier-of-fortune.com/sof/images/weaps/weaps_heavymg.jpghttp://www.cncden.com/images2_ren/big_laserrifle.jpghttp://fear.planets.gamespy.com/images/weapons/plasmaweapon.jpg

And the BFG is a bit more suited for unreal tournament than DX (surprise I got that gun in UT ^^)
In DX we got a plasma rifle and a plasma Pistol
the rifle has a loader and plasma ammo, the pistol is a fire and forget weapon
they were in DX as far as I know

Powerful weapons, yes, but I don't think a devastating one is a good idea and I think everyone doesn't think I want a BFG even if I think it's fun.
If I want a rocket launcher I don't want a launcher with the power of a shotgun even for a balance issue
If I want original weapons it's for original concepts
And when I talk about real weapons it's for their concepts that weren't used in games and not because I want them in the game
I think game developpers haven't a lack of imagination to make M16s and AK47s all the time
It's because players wants that and nothing more
I got four reasons why I don't want real weapons

1/ real weapons are used in many games (too much in nowdays)
2/ real weapons aren't original
3/ real weapons haven't original concepts
4/ I want to avoid clichés about them (M16 = good guys and AK47 = terrorists)

crimethinker
4th Feb 2009, 21:54
The thing that always confuses me about the weapons in RPG games, is that the developers usually give them different strengths and weaknesses that make no sense in the real world, but are there to balance the gameplay... even though there are perfectly sensible reasons they could use instead, which would still balance the gameplay.

<slightly boring rant>

I have bad memories of my early play of DX, when I found out that all the assault rifles in the game were paintball guns. I was trying to take out 4 advancing NSF terrorists with my assault rifle, who had only just spotted me. It took the whole clip to take out just 3 of them, and that was due to lucky headshots. While I tried to reload, the last one gave me a faceful of lead and took me out. Now, I may have been playing on realistic mode, but if 4 or 5 bullets from a pistol to the chest will put them on their asses, then 2 or 3 should be enough to penetrate their armour, not 10. Suffice to say, I never used the AR again.

In DX, IIRC the pistol did 5 times as much damage per shot as the assault rifle, so that they were combat equals. In DX:IW, I suspect the pistol did slightly more damage per shot. This of course is silly when compared to the real world, but balanced the gameplay in both games. However, in real life, rifles are used to blow the crap out of everything in a heated battle, and pistols have their uses too, eg personal defence, and suppressed (silenced) pistols are excellent for subtle infiltration.

I never could get used to how the assault rifle in DX was made so pathetic, just to let people take out whole platoons with a pistol. If people try to take out a platoon in a full-blown firefight with a pistol (as opposed to being tactical or stealthy, mind), they deserve to end up having bodies with more lead in them than flesh. The assault rifle should be hands-down a better tool for full-blown firefights unless you're fully trained/auged/modded for your pistol and not at all with rifles. Its downside should be that it's too big to conceal, and causes otherwise friendly people to fight-or-flight.

Furthermore, the 'silencers' (which I will now call by their better name, suppressors) that are attachable to any rifle in the game shouldn't be nearly as effective as previous games and Hollywood would have you believe. Even putting a suppressor on a 9mm pistol doesn't stop someone a few metres away from hearing it fired, and dozens of metres away on a still night - so you'd need to put a silencer the size of a loaf of bread on a rifle before it became quiet, let alone silent. (Naturally, no one uses such suppressors due to their bulk, except for specialist sniper rifles that have to be fired from urban areas.)

</slightly boring rant>

If you actually read my rant, good for you. What's its point, you ask? This: The Deus Ex game is my favourite game of all time because it's so immersive that it sucks you into its world. Any part of the game that disrupted this immersion was a fault that should have been corrected. So why did they make totally unrealistic weapons (I specifically mean the DX assault rifle) when they could have had realistic weapons, and still have working gameplay? At best, their approach gave the player more choice than was necessary (ie, with the pistol being as good in a firefight as the assault rifle or sawn-off), and at worst it was simply stupid.

Picture this: A game similar to DX, but where anyone playing as Jason Bourne carries no weapons except possibly a suppressed pistol and/or knife, anyone playing as Sam Fisher carries those plus a suppressed sub-machinegun, anyone playing as a Delta force soldier carries those (possibly with an assault rifle instead of the sub-machinegun) plus a suppressed sniper rifle, and anyone playing as Rambo carries a sub-machinegun plus the 2 largest weapons they can find (let's say, 2 out of assault rifle/medium machinegun, rocket launcher, flamethrower [but a decent one, not that thing in Deus Ex that had a range of 5 feet], and plasma rifle/rail gun). If a player doesn't want to have to try his hardest to smuggle his huge weapons from battle to battle, then he should stick to the smaller weapons. Plus, the heavier the player's weapon and ammo load, the slower he walks and runs. It's set up so that carrying what was a full load in DX would debilitate you to the point that you were unable to run, or even walk faster than a shuffle.

In this game, you still have the choice of how you operate (as one of those four, or a mix, or something else), but if you want to operate effectively, you have to have the right tools for the job, and none others. You shouldn't be able to have a pistol decent enough to wipe out 6 guys in a straight fight without using cover (unless you've maxed out your pistol skill/aug/mods, AND you're a hardcore Counterstrike player), or having a sniper rifle that fires silent bullets, which kill a guy in 1 shot without disturbing the alert guard 3 feet in front of him, or the one 3 feet away from you.

DX game designers would then say that gamers wouldn't like the fact that switching styles requires them to toss aside their highly-modded weapons, and pump all their skill points into the new skill set, to do so. Firstly, such gamers are very similar to casual gamers (in that they're very unwilling to put in even the slightest effort to their game), who I think generally wouldn't appreciate the complexity of Deus Ex, and hence should go back to playing Doom 16, or whichever is the most recent gore-filled game. Secondly, that problem can be taken care of as follows: Allow gamers to uninstall and reinstall most weapon mods, have arms dealers with unlimited stock in every major hub, and give the player an inventory chest. Yes, I said inventory chest! It doesn't have to be an actual treasure chest, it could simply be the boot ('trunk', for you North Americans) of your car. (By the way, I DO advocate giving the player a car that can be used for transport and storage, but preferably something that would be almost useless in a fight or chase.) If players have an inventory chest, then they can dump their unwieldy weapons where they can definitely be retrieved for later use, rather than having to throw them away pretty much permanently.

Notice how this hypothetical game would be a great deal more realistic (and hence immersive) than DX, but it still gives the same gameplay options to the players. The only people who would think it worse than DX are rare gamer types, such as those obsessed with one particular type of firearm and insist on being able to use it in every situation in every style (yes, your high-powered sniper rifle is useless in a firefight. Get over it!), or those who want to hold and fire enormous guns and still run like a cheetah (your childish wish for such a genital-compensating weapon and running speed would be hilarious, except that you're trying to ruin my gaming experience).

Apologies for ridiculous length, but I tried to make it interesting. Further apologies if any of this doesn't make sense or is off-topic, I've been getting progressively more wasted while I typed.

itsalladream
5th Feb 2009, 00:34
The thing about the suppresors in DX is that, they aren't based on what we consider them to be today. Think about it this way. Do you know how noise reduction headphones work (the active reduction ones)? They listen to the noise aroudn the user and create an "opposite" sound to cancel the outside sound. If you applied that idea to a suppresor, you could put a device on the weapon, and when it is fired, it could emit a sound "opposite" to the sound from the weapon, effectively covering up the sound. It could have 2 modes. One mode "replicates" the sound on the spot, and the other mode has presets for certain weapons.

Blade_hunter
5th Feb 2009, 00:48
In unreal 1 I got an interesting item called "sound dampener" it silence our entire sounds you could make like your footsteps and you weapon of course, an other one is a bit the same thing as the noise maker from DX 2, called "Voice box"

It was cool to use in multiplayer because players can't hear you, and using an hitscan weapon with no tracer make it very useful

I think the "sound dampener" could be a biomod as well, no ?

GmanPro
5th Feb 2009, 01:14
They sorta had that in DX1. The run silently aug, coupled with a silencer on your firearm. Having one aug that handled everything would be more efficient, but at the same time, I would rather have them separate.

spm1138
5th Feb 2009, 13:39
Actually I'm pretty sure that whatever the fluff text was you'd have had a visible sound suppressor on the weapon if they could have done it.

You definitely got a hollywood "fwip" kinda sound effect while using one.

Also none of the other weapon mods had a visual addition to the weapon.

I liked the Splinter Cell 3 approach to suppressed weapons.

They were quieter but not silent. The rifle was noisier than the pistol. How noticeable you were depended a lot on background noise.


DX game designers would then say that gamers wouldn't like the fact that switching styles requires them to toss aside their highly-modded weapons, and pump all their skill points into the new skill set, to do so. Firstly, such gamers are very similar to casual gamers (in that they're very unwilling to put in even the slightest effort to their game), who I think generally wouldn't appreciate the complexity of Deus Ex, and hence should go back to playing Doom 16, or whichever is the most recent gore-filled game. Secondly, that problem can be taken care of as follows: Allow gamers to uninstall and reinstall most weapon mods, have arms dealers with unlimited stock in every major hub, and give the player an inventory chest. Yes, I said inventory chest! It doesn't have to be an actual treasure chest, it could simply be the boot ('trunk', for you North Americans) of your car.

Yeah. I agree with this I think.

Blade_hunter
5th Feb 2009, 17:08
In DX1 and the 2 it's a combination, yes but some weapons that couldn't be silenced it can be a cool thing, and a realistic approach could make more sense and make each weapon more balanced

IOOI
6th Apr 2009, 22:49
I've found a video in youtube explaining/introducing to the use of laser weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AV5aY7HYAk) and such in movies. For me is something new but it may not be for the more "enlightened".

JCD
6th Apr 2009, 22:58
Have we talked about the use of Taser Guns here? It's a "pretty nice" gun to use in DX3, for some simple reasons:

1) We can see the widespread usage it already has in the US police forces
2) It can be easily added in the game
3) It will most likely be more frequently used in the future
4) It is a measure of non-lethal takedown, which many people love in DX (including me)
5) Give it to Jack Bauer and he will conquer Alpha Centauri :lol: :lol:

Blade_hunter
7th Apr 2009, 00:56
I talked about tazer and lightening guns
the tazer as a conventional weapon, the lightening gun as a gun prototype.

Also interesting video, the particle beams are just like railguns in thory propelling matter at the speed of light and destruction happens http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwlNPhn64TA&feature=related :eek:
, also antimatter guns will be one of the ultimate weapons we can do.

Particle antimatter beam !! the death ray :nut:

LatwPIAT
7th Apr 2009, 08:21
I've found a video in youtube explaining/introducing to the use of laser weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AV5aY7HYAk) and such in movies. For me is something new but it may not be for the more "enlightened".

Atomic Rocket: Space War: Weapons (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html) gives you nearly all the equations you need for accurate calculations, once you've watched the above video. I transferred those equations to an Excel sheet, allowing me to make quick, doomy calculations.

Ninjerk
7th Apr 2009, 09:27
Anyhoo, universal ammo is okay when used properly to cut down on pickup bloat.
I don't think 6 different guns, with 3 ammo choices each, should use a total of 18 different types of ammo altogether. But I have no idea how broad the weapon choices will be in DX3.

Unfortunately, that's how multiplication works.

LatwPIAT
7th Apr 2009, 13:22
Anyhoo, universal ammo is okay when used properly to cut down on pickup bloat.
I don't think 6 different guns, with 3 ammo choices each, should use a total of 18 different types of ammo altogether. But I have no idea how broad the weapon choices will be in DX3.


Unfortunately, that's how multiplication works.

But that's not how guns work... Often, ammunition is standardized to avoid logistical problems. The FN Minimi, it's US knockoff, the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon and the German Army assault rifle, the G3 all use 7.62mm NATO ammunition. Granted, the Minimi and SAW are belt-fed while the G3 uses magazines, so ammo isn't that interchanceable, but this applies to other NATO standards too.

If I were to detach the magazine of an American M16, I could immediatly shove in into the American M4 Carbine, or into the French FAMAS, or, if memory serves me right, the British Enfield L85A2, because they all use 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition in STANAG magazines.

Now here comes the fun part. Occationally, an ammo type goes cross-class. The FN 5.7x28mm bullet is used by both the FN Five-seveN and the FN P90, so if you had a few empty P90-magazines, some filled Five-seveN magazines and some time, you could realod your P90 with ammo from the Five-seveN.

This was actually the basis for a WWII-era Japanese machine gun which could accept the clips from the standards issue Japanese infantry rifle, so troops could supply the machine gun with extra ammo during combat.

Then there's the fun story of the Stoner 63, which could accept both 5.56 NATO STANAG magazines and 5.56 NATO belt-feeds with a quick configuration, allowing it to serve both as an assault rifle and a light support weapon.

Even more practical are the Soviet AK-47 derivative weapons. If memeory serves me right, both the AK47, (assault rifle) the RPK (light support weapon) and the Druganov SVD (sniper rifle) were all designed to accept the 7.56x45mm Soviet cartridge, so a sniper low on ammo could loot a dead ally's corpse for a few extra rounds, and a conscript could hand over a magazine to keep the machine gun firing.

So while totally Universal Ammo is ridiculous, somewhat interchangeable ammo is perfectly fine.

(A note on the "AK47:" AK47 is commonly used to refer to many of the AK-derivatives. You'll often find the AK47, the AKM, the AKS, the AK-74, the AKS-74u and all further permutations of letters referred to as AK47s. This applies especially to fiction, where to avoid licensing costs, one might refer to the AKS-74u as a AK-74u because the latter name doesn't have Rubles attached. This is also true for other guns, such as the FA-MAS, (FAMAS) the SC2000, (F2000) or the GLOCK (Yes, but which Glock? There isn't just one you know...))

(Second Note: The AK47 and it's immediate derivatives (AKS, AKM, AKMS, RPK, Druganov SVD, etc.) use different ammo from the AK74-derivatives (AKS-74u, etc.) which use the 5.54mm Soviet rather than the 7.62mm Soviet. This means that magazines from an AK47 are not interchangeable with magazines from an AK74, even though they are commonly referred to in the same category.)

JCD
7th Apr 2009, 16:05
Uni-AMMO is a really bad idea, mainly because of all the reasons LatwPIAT has explained. I have heard many times about the concept of turning every weapon to the 5.56 NATO, but this can't apply to...pistols, shotguns, heavy machineguns or heavy snipers. It's plainly ridiculous. We can have a gun-that-does-it-all (G36 comes in mind), but it is: a) lame to use only one main weapon with tons of mods b) not replacing MANY DX guns.

Uni ammo could be implemented if by some imaginery scenario we could use nanotechnology blah-blah, but it's plain fiction for DX3.

So, what are we going to have? It's simply not right. While I don't argue THAT much about the health regen system, the uni-ammo just....sucks :( :( :(

I can't understand how a flamethrower and a rocket launcher will use the same ammo with the rifles...:confused: :confused:

Jerion
7th Apr 2009, 16:11
There's no Uni Ammo for DX3...where did this idea come from? :confused:

JCD
7th Apr 2009, 16:39
YOU tell me!

http://blog.mpl.org/nowatmpl/Uncle%20Sam%20Wants%20You.jpg

:lol:

I am hearing all kinds of things about this UNI-AMMO idea and I really couldn't believe them. Can you please clarify? :) :)

Blade_hunter
7th Apr 2009, 17:43
There isn't uni ammo and nobody wants that, some weapons can share the same ammo (pistol and SMG for example), but not all weapons shares the same ammo.

I just hope a single weapon can use a lot of ammo, for example a grenade launcher that can use explosives, smoke, tear gas, EMP, fragmentation, napalm, poison, tranquilizer gas grenades and such. or a shotgun with shells, slugs, explosive shells, sabotted, rubber, tazer, etc ...

I'd like to see that in the game ammo variety, also ammo for more original purposes, like mines, proximity grenades, glass destabilizing, spider mines, homming arrow, a shell that can set a dart mine, a little cam, etc ...

I think some realism but some fantasy is good since it offers tactical purposes ....

Mindmute
7th Apr 2009, 18:17
I am hearing all kinds of things about this UNI-AMMO idea and I really couldn't believe them. Can you please clarify? :) :)

None of the articles discussed here or any other posts in this forum have ever said there would be uni ammo in DX3, so I can't help but wonder where you're "hearing all kinds of things about this", as you put it.

norah
15th Apr 2009, 13:58
Personaly i prefer a lot of diffent weapons ammo and ways to upgrade them. plz no universal ammo. no not even on type of ammo for one weapon. changing ammo to you situation gives a strategy element to the game normal shoters dont have.

upgrading of the weapons was fine the way it was in the original game. exend clipsize decrease recoil or relode time incrasing accuracy, scopes, silencer and lazersight.
still this standerizes it all a bit it would be fun if some weapon could be strongly modified. a few examples adding a grande to a machine gun, changing a handgun to have the posiblity to fire a nanobotbullet making them more effictive against robots/electronic security(solwing/stuning, overriding self destruct or corrupring programming to consider the player friendly) or sawing of the barrel of a shotgun reducing accuracy over rage but inreasing damage in close quarters.
genaly these kind of unique upgrade change the weapons funcutunality so they can't be used as before(see handgun example: it will never fire ordenary bullets after that), some like the machine gun will just give the option to fire alternativly whitout loading a new type of ammo. these changes hould be irreversible but you are allowed to have aditonal (unmodified) weapon of the same type in your inventory.
additinoly it would be fun if there was an implant that links up whit the scopes you put on weapons greatly increasing your accuracy whit that particuler weapon.

thats how i feal a bout itt let me know what you think.

Gary_Savage
15th Apr 2009, 14:26
Personaly i prefer a lot of diffent weapons ammo and ways to upgrade them. plz no universal ammo. no not even on type of ammo for one weapon. changing ammo to you situation gives a strategy element to the game normal shoters dont have.

upgrading of the weapons was fine the way it was in the original game. exend clipsize decrease recoil or relode time incrasing accuracy, scopes, silencer and lazersight.
still this standerizes it all a bit it would be fun if some weapon could be strongly modified. a few examples adding a grande to a machine gun, changing a handgun to have the posiblity to fire a nanobotbullet making them more effictive against robots/electronic security(solwing/stuning, overriding self destruct or corrupring programming to consider the player friendly) or sawing of the barrel of a shotgun reducing accuracy over rage but inreasing damage in close quarters.
genaly these kind of unique upgrade change the weapons funcutunality so they can't be used as before(see handgun example: it will never fire ordenary bullets after that), some like the machine gun will just give the option to fire alternativly whitout loading a new type of ammo. these changes hould be irreversible but you are allowed to have aditonal (unmodified) weapon of the same type in your inventory.
additinoly it would be fun if there was an implant that links up whit the scopes you put on weapons greatly increasing your accuracy whit that particuler weapon.

thats how i feal a bout itt let me know what you think.

I like your view point. I liked being able to upgrade weapons in the original. Of course, I would like it better if using scopes on weapons would be an added skill, so that you would have one skill (and accuracy) for using "iron sights" and another for scoped weapons (because I tend to use the iron sights on an air rifle more accurately, than a scope -- for a lack of training), but I am pretty sure that that would be an unpopular idea.

I also like the idea of being able to saw off a shotgun -- or any gun-- (say, at someone's shop, like the Smuggler's place, in DX1) to be able to conceal it, but it might be too late in the development cycle to implement this idea, even if it were to become popular. On the whole, I like the idea of being able to make irreversible changes to a weapon, finding that that modified weapon would only be useful in certain situations, and then feeling sheer joy at coming across an unmodified version of the same weapon, later in the game (say, for the reason of ammo availability, or long range accuracy). Imagine, you sawed off your assault rifle barrel for the cathedral mission, in DX1 (yeah, I know, you can't do that in DX1), expecting a lot of fight at close quarters. Imagine, then the joy of finding another rifle, with its long barrel, upon finding that you have to engage MJ12 troops at long range, from the rooftop, at Vandenburg (you might have to imagine you ran out of sniper rifle ammo, for this scenario).

EDIT: Yes, I do certainly want multiple ammo types for each weapon, as that did add an element of strategy to my DX1 gameplaying. In fact, I enjoyed that aspect of DX1 tremendously.

Blade_hunter
15th Apr 2009, 15:32
Hey please be cool guys; there is no uni ammo it's official ;)
For the rest I like the ideas submitted
I always wanted a looooot of weapons, a looot of ammo and a looot of upgrades.

Jerion
15th Apr 2009, 15:40
You know, the multiple ammo types for each weapon is an interesting issue. I think there are very few real-world weapons that are designed to fire multiple ammo types- and if you think about it, there weren't many weapons in DX 1 that appreciably fired more than one ammo type. I mean, How many weapons in DX had more than one primary ammo type?

-The mini crossbow
-The shotguns
-The GEP Gun

That's it, if I remember correctly. When it comes down to it, the practical differences between the two ammo types was negligible except for the mini crossbow. The two rocket types did pretty much the same thing, except one also lit things on fire for a short time. The shotgun rounds? Not a lot of difference between them, except I always used Sabot rounds, which were slightly more effective than Buckshot (and plentiful enough). It's not until the mini-crossbow, IMO, that the different ammo types have any appreciable difference- you could either stick somebody with darts, light up a dark corner, or knock somebody out. And really, sticking somebody with a tranq dart is much more economical (and non-lethal!) than the using normal darts, and flare darts weren't plentiful or bright enough to be more than a gimmick. They could have just done away with normal darts and I doubt many people would have noticed.

So I think that while a really neat addition to the game, multiple ammo varieties is a bit of an illusion in DX 1- It's only limited to a handful of weapons and management wise it tends to just let you carry more stuff. It's like it was only taken halfway- multiple ammo would have been much more applicable over the course of the game if ammo had taken up room in the inventory, forcing you to choose between the weapons and equipment you take with you, how much ammo you take with you, and what sort of ammo you take with you.

InGroove2
15th Apr 2009, 15:59
You know, the multiple ammo types for each weapon is an interesting issue. I think there are very few real-world weapons that are designed to fire multiple ammo types- and if you think about it, there weren't many weapons in DX 1 that appreciably fired more than one ammo type. I mean, How many weapons in DX had more than one primary ammo type?

-The mini crossbow
-The shotguns
-The GEP Gun

That's it, if I remember correctly. When it comes down to it, the practical differences between the two ammo types was negligible except for the mini crossbow. The two rocket types did pretty much the same thing, except one also lit things on fire for a short time. The shotgun rounds? Not a lot of difference between them, except I always used Sabot rounds, which were slightly more effective than Buckshot (and plentiful enough). It's not until the mini-crossbow, IMO, that the different ammo types have any appreciable difference- you could either stick somebody with darts, light up a dark corner, or knock somebody out. And really, sticking somebody with a tranq dart is much more economical (and non-lethal!) than the using normal darts, and flare darts weren't plentiful or bright enough to be more than a gimmick. They could have just done away with normal darts and I doubt many people would have noticed.

So I think that while a really neat addition to the game, multiple ammo varieties is a bit of an illusion in DX 1- It's only limited to a handful of weapons and management wise it tends to just let you carry more stuff. It's like it was only taken halfway- multiple ammo would have been much more applicable over the course of the game if ammo had taken up room in the inventory, forcing you to choose between the weapons and equipment you take with you, how much ammo you take with you, and what sort of ammo you take with you.

whoa, how can you forget the assault rifle and the... oh i forget what it was called technically. but it had the grenade launcher.. that things was completely bad ass.... like a rapid fire gep gun.

and the white phosphor GEP rounds were alot diff than the regular rounds cause the damage was alot lower, but it started things on fire, which had some nice applications.

i don't think different ammo types are simply novel. it played in heavily with how i chose my weapons. i mean, i generally only had an assault shotgun or rifle... never both. no depending on how i played the character in that play through, i'd have to choose which would be more effective... having the SABOT round option or the Grenade launcher option.

furthermore: one of the other problems with IW was aside from it having a smaller palette of things to utlize, because of the completel lack of in-game documentation... it wasn't always clear what upgrades would do or how you could modify things, maybe i needed an instruction boook or something. but having all that info in your inventory about mods and weapons, especially all the weapon stats, it gave you insight into what the possilbities could be and where you stood in the grand scheme of... stats.. or whatever.

Jerion
15th Apr 2009, 16:20
I wasn't counting the Assault Rifle because it was essentially two very different weapons in one- you had bullets and then you had grenades. Not very comparable to the shotgun, where you were simply firing two different types of shells with slightly different damage values.

Yes, it does affect to an extent how you choose your weapons, but its like it doesn't affect that choice to the extent that it was meant to- it adds to the pros and cons of each weapon, but it doesn't significantly affect inventory management. Do you see where I'm coming from? I'm not saying it was worthless, I'm saying it's not there anywhere near as much as it could have been.

InGroove2
15th Apr 2009, 16:28
I wasn't counting the Assault Rifle because it was essentially two very different weapons in one- you had bullets and then you had grenades. Not too comparable to the shotgun, where you were simply firing two different types of shells with slightly different damage values.

Yes, it does affect to an extent how you choose your weapons, but It's like it doesn't affect that choice to the extent that it was meant to- it adds to the pros and cons of each weapon, but it doesn't significantly affect inventory management. Do you see where I'm coming from?

right, i see your point... yopu just pick up all ammo and that's pretty much it... eventually you can equip any weapon as long as you find the weapon.. whereas, say, in SS2, it didn't do you any good to have a weapon for which you had no ammo, so then you had to find the ammo or just not pick up that weapon. for a game like DX, i see your point with that, but ammo would have to be alot more plentiful than in SS2... in this example at least.

the assault rifle being two diff weapons, i get that, but that it was physically the same weapoin is important, in that you didn't have to equip 2 weapons... i mean that with regards to your comments about inventory management. i see it as one of those things spector talked about being in moderation. it was one of the few things where it's a more bang for your buck situation, since there weren't alot of instances where you had that kind of firepower to easily available with little inventory cost.... which is what keeps the game so balanced.

K^2
15th Apr 2009, 17:26
The duality of Assault Rifle has great impact on the way you manage your inventory, though. I can carry with me a proper rocket launcher and something like a plasma rifle and have little inventory room left for anything else. Or I can carry an assault rifle that can perform as either, though, in a far more limited way, but taking up only 4 squares in my inventory. Even if it was the only weapon with dual ammo types, it would already make a sufficient impact on gameplay.

GmanPro
15th Apr 2009, 18:02
I just wish that it didn't take 30 shots to the head to kill someone with the assault rifle in DX. That just felt horribly broken to me

Mindmute
15th Apr 2009, 18:08
I just wish that it didn't take 30 shots to the head to kill someone with the assault rifle in DX. That just felt horribly broken to me

Aye, but it worked at all ranges with decent effectiveness. I guess it was the way the found to make it so it wouldn't become *the* weapon.

GmanPro
15th Apr 2009, 18:11
Instead, the pistol ended up being the best weapon lol. I just wish I could have put a silencer on that thing. Pistol + Gep gun = only two weapons you need :cool:

Sometimes I'll carry the Dragon's Tooth sword too because it can be used to bash open the weaker locks. There was so much ammo for the Gep Gun that I just used the rockets to blast open locks :D

Spyhopping
15th Apr 2009, 18:12
It was daft, but the main thing that gets to me in DX is my utter inability to climb ladders or open doors. You're this badass cyborg who constantly flops pathetically off the top of ladders and gets stuck INSIDE doors.

Anyway, weapons.

Jerion
15th Apr 2009, 18:17
Instead, the pistol ended up being the best weapon lol. I just wish I could have put a silencer on that thing. Pistol + Gep gun = only two weapons you need :cool:

Sometimes I'll carry the Dragon's Tooth sword too because it can be used to bash open the weaker locks. There was so much ammo for the Gep Gun that I just used the rockets to blast open locks :D

You know, I have to disagree. You can get away with not using the GEP Gun, though it does help. But the AS works wonders against commandos and troopers.

Pistol + Assault Shotty = the only two weapons you ever need.

GmanPro
15th Apr 2009, 18:29
I always thought the assault shotgun didn't do enough damage. Sometimes I'll take the sniper rifle because I can silence it and make those headshots on MJ12 commandos from a distance. But usually, the stun prod is all I need in that game. I'll bring along some other guns if I have room, but usually I don't. I've never used the plasma rifle...

Hopefully guns will do more realistic amounts of damage in DX3 :D I kinda like the Counter Strike system, were one or two shots is going to kill you. Not only is it realistic, but it makes combat much more intense, and stresses an importance on avoiding open fights.

K^2
15th Apr 2009, 18:38
Instead, the pistol ended up being the best weapon lol. I just wish I could have put a silencer on that thing. Pistol + Gep gun = only two weapons you need :cool:

Sometimes I'll carry the Dragon's Tooth sword too because it can be used to bash open the weaker locks. There was so much ammo for the Gep Gun that I just used the rockets to blast open locks :D
Handgun does indeed become primary weapon. Though, my full arsenal was quite a bit more diverse. I usually carried Dragon's Tooth, hand gun, sniper rifle (for silenced shots), plasma rifle, and GEP gun. Spy Drone took place of an EMP weapon. That arsenal limited my inventory space drastically, leaving space only for a few important stackable items. But since my approach was always to strategically clear each area, I rarely had need for anything other than weapons.

Maybe I should try playing with purely stealth approach some time, but I'm not sure if my twitchy trigger finger will let me.

Blade_hunter
15th Apr 2009, 18:41
Yes Mr K would count only the weapons that uses the same cannon to fire the same projectile, in SS2 most "Standard weapons had 2 - 3 up to 5 kind of ammo.

For me I wanted to see more
In STALKER for example a lot of guns have 2 - 3 kind of ammo for the main cannon, and 1 - 2 for the secondary cannon
some have 1 kind of ammo but they are rare
but in deus ex I wanted to see ammo real and fictional

In deus ex most weapons were designed when they uses more than one kind of ammo for anti organic / anti armor purposes, the exception is the crossbow.

I want to propose some grenades real and fictional

Frag grenades
HE grenades
HEDP (anti armor grenade)
Smoke grenades
CS grenades
Airburst
Sponge grenade (a non lethal crowd control grenade)
Buck shot (Eh yes grenade launchers can act like a shotgun)


Flash grenades
Tranquilizer gas grenades
EMP grenades
White phosphorous grenades
Napalm grenades
Multi cluster grenades
Proximity grenades (grenades could have this function with a fire mode)
Parachute Spy cam
Net ammo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_mm_grenade
this is where I take some info

I wanted to see some revolvers and a .45 Colt revolver that can shoot shotshells :D or derringers, yeah those weapons are pretty rare

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Judge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derringer

But they exist :)

Ammo for Shotguns

Birdshot
Buckshot
Flechette
Slugs
Sabots
Grenade
Fragmentary
Gas
Rubber
Tazer
Breaching rounds (good for opening locks)
Flare


Poison flechette
EMP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun

I got less inspiration for those

About the AR I often said in DX it was a crap and didn't work in a logical manner
It fires 5 rounds when you pull the trigger, it does 3 damage, the grenade launcher is too fast firing and didn't reload after each shot second how the gun is designed.

Also I have to say I think deus ex is designed to allow players to shoose their loadouts, but I think
I always used the sniper, the pistol, the crossbow, and the GEP gun
The assault shotgun is a great assault weapon but sometimes I preferred the sawed off, it wasn't the best but it was good against a low enemy quantity
The sniper is a must have rifle instakill with a HS against all organic, semi human foes.
for the rest I often switched weapons
Also the DT is the best melee weapon I always switched to it when I found it

the grenades or the other weapons were the ones I changed often

Igoe
15th Apr 2009, 19:51
Remember they're aiming for a mesh of the two groups (hardcore DX fans and the 56 million other gamers who were born after 1988) so you can't throw a lot of ammo choices at them at once.

Two, MAYBE 3 ammo types for 2-3 weapons sounds about right, on par with deus ex.

I do not think we'll see something as robust and versatile as the GEPGun in DX3 (though I'd love to see a prototype GEP in the later stages) SO GEP is out, that leaves pistols, shotguns, sniper and the crossbow.

Pistol is out for multiple ammo because it wouldnt add anything gamewise.

They all ready said you can convert your sniper rifle into a rail gun of sorts, I'd imagine that will use a different type, but if you're converting it the switch in ammo is probably permanent, so non-switchable.

That leaves the shotgun and Crossbow variant. They key mantra in DX is "choice" so there must be AT LEAST ONE OTHER WAY to accomplish something.

Look at DX1: The tech goggles did what the vision aug did, flares did what the flashlight did, LAMS did what the GEPGun or LAW did, the rebreather, hazmat suits, and armor did what the auqualung, EVR, and bullet shield augs did, thermoptic camo did what the cloaking aug did, and so on. We EXPECT there to be multiple ways of accomplishing an effect.

That being said, look at all the grenade types shown for DX3. If the spirit of DX rings true, we should expect to be able to duplicate those effects by other means. Most likely through the crossbow and shotgun.

ADDITIONALLY: I would be absolutely floored if they would include Breech rounds for the shotgun and a Breech aug for the arm to bust open door locks.

How cool would it be to fire a shotgun round into a lock and blow the door open, or to attach a mechanism on your hand to breech open a door? That'd be awesome AND provide alternatives for those who don't want to carry around 40 lockpicks because we chose not to upgrade that skill.

Blade_hunter
15th Apr 2009, 21:13
Eh I think every weapon have some purposes and uses, the LAMs were made for short range and traps, The LAW for medium up to long range but for mass destruction and it needs to be accurate and the GEP gun is the all around explosive thrower designed to kill robots
Some biomods did what some accessories did but they provide biocells preservation and sometimes it could be used instead of getting installed the biomod of the same purpose.

The great thing of DX was the flexibility in some domains I have to agree with the fact they did some items with a close effect as the biomod provides
Hopefully shifter corrected some flaws about how wearables work.

I think suits and biomods should work more differently I think everyone could choose what the like most after all

About the GEP gun I think we could have an unguided version that could be upgraded to get guidance systems or weaker versions or get a dedicated grenade launcher.
there is a lot of models
with loaders of a great / medium / low capacity or single shot
25 mm and 40 mm (some of them have different length and pressures, also that would mean a grenade launcher can use some cartridges, but not all for example)
Also I found an Anti materiel rifle who uses a 25mm grenade
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1225111/posts
The Barrett XM 109

If players wouldn't like explosives there is always anti materiel rifles with slugs
Or machineguns, or shotties with sabot ammo

Or for the guys who like a silenced weapon perhaps a compound bow with explosive arrows :D silent shot and explosive impact ^^ or a crossbow or a spear gun.

I've seen a prototype of a grenade who is adapted on rifle muzzles called "Simon"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIMON_breach_grenade
But I don't know if it's possible to do that with a silenced rifle
Even if it's not possible I think DX 3 should have a weapon like that for opening doors or even for killing robots with a good grenade, but we need a specific AR model
also that thing is made by old technologies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_grenade

One of my dreams in rocket launcher therms is a clip fed / multi tube or something or something like the M202a1 ^^

Ok that kind of launcher seems to be brutal but some other weapons are more brutal than that and they are smaller ...

K^2
15th Apr 2009, 21:21
40mm automatic grenade launchers are awesome. There are some that can fire over 100 rounds per minute. Can you imagine being shelled by two high explosive 'nades every second? I've seen what these things do to walls and light armor vehicles. Incredible sight.

Deus Ex 3 should have something like that as a replacement for plasma rifle.

Edit: In case anyone is thinking it, yes, I know they have nothing on Avenger with party mix.

Blade_hunter
15th Apr 2009, 21:31
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl21-e.htm :D

K^2
15th Apr 2009, 21:52
I do not want to be on the wrong end of that one. 350 rounds / second minute. Holly cow.

Blade_hunter
15th Apr 2009, 22:04
Per second ? wow firing a gun that throw things a 350 / sec you will fly :lol:

K^2
15th Apr 2009, 22:15
I meant per minute, of course. Still, like 6 rounds per second. Avenger cannon can give you 3900 rounds / minute, which is 65/second. But that thing does, indeed, produce enough kickback to fly.

Blade_hunter
15th Apr 2009, 22:28
Yeah that minigun has a great kick back
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger

K^2
16th Apr 2009, 01:21
I would not classify GAU-8 as a "minigun". Miniguns are designed to be hand-carried. GAU-8 had to have a plane attached to it to move it about.

GmanPro
16th Apr 2009, 01:25
Yeah, I think I'd take an AC-130. For all my gun needs :D

http://www.air-attack.com/MIL/ac130/ac130_header.jpghttp://newcentrist.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/ac130-gunship2.jpg
http://www.airforceworld.com/attacker/gfx/ac130/ac130_3.jpg

Blade_hunter
16th Apr 2009, 01:33
Ah, for me miniguns are just chainguns with rotary cannons
But If I say Minicannon or Rotary autocannon, does it right ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sALiuWg_I1k&feature=related

WhatsHisFace
16th Apr 2009, 02:17
All I need is a crossbow and an electric prod.

JCD
16th Apr 2009, 02:22
All I need is a crossbow and an electric prod.
My kind of player :cool: (+ a baton)

K^2
16th Apr 2009, 02:52
Yeah, I think I'd take an AC-130. For all my gun needs :D
Putting a few guns on an cargo plane does not qualify it as a good weapons platform. Besides, it's shooting flares on all these pictures.

A-10 does what it is meant to do, and it shreds through armor far better than AC-130 ever could.

Ah, for me miniguns are just chainguns with rotary cannons
But If I say Minicannon or Rotary autocannon, does it right ?
Proper name is Gatling Gun.

Edit: Anybody else is noticing a trend of various topics starting to get flooded with pictures of planes sooner or later?

nsf001
16th Apr 2009, 12:49
All I need is an Candybar..

WhatsHisFace
16th Apr 2009, 13:03
All I need is an Candybar..

JC Ten-ton?

Blade_hunter
16th Apr 2009, 13:31
I think this is our fault by talking about autocannons.

About grenade launchers
In some vids about real grenade launchers it seems they doesn't make too much noise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlFwNU-qUKo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpS3WuNcgs4

Also the M32, but this one is really stealth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX-99a1JCc4

Suppressed machinegun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QavKtVIgFg

It's noisy but less than with nothing

I tried to find suppressed shotguns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j5P0LXemAA
I found that but the shotgun stay noisy

I think a spear gun is a good weapon, or a dart gun for non killers
I think a pepper gun should be a good weapon but the DX version isn't good because the tear gas it too volatile, also a fire extinguisher should be fun, but with two uses Melee weapon and short range :D

I think the unarmed combat should be a good option for any player.
But I think Deus Ex 3 should introduce improvised combat, I mean the use of any item in the game world for some purposes

For me ALL players could choose their accessories that fit on their own tastes
It's for that reason a good variety and bunch of weapons / accessories would satisfy anybody

InGroove2
16th Apr 2009, 14:01
Question:

how do you guys feel about weapons with regard to the story, the cannon? I mean... i just read a post above where it's mentioned that they should have a GEP guidance system upgrade, which is something that DX did not have. Do you think it's important for weapons to follow the cannon... i just imagining some of the hardcore types getting bent out of shape about weapons being more advanced in DX3 than in DX. which i don't personally agree with.

Blade_hunter
16th Apr 2009, 14:32
more advanced it depends in regards of what, because some weapons didn't act in a logical manner
-> assault rifle
I just like the design and its versatility, but it wasn't well made in function therms and the damage dealt with bullets are really crapped

You say in DX we didn't have a guidance upgrade in the GEP gun, but it was incorporated in the weapon, my proposal make it not incorporated and you can put it later, where is the better technology on that ?
An unguided weapon that become guided after and a weapon with the system already incorporated.

Oh yeah DX 3 will be more advanced than DX just because I can have an unguided launcher with the ability to become guided after, and my 30 cartridges / clip 20 mm grenade launcher is a prehistoric gun :rasp:

InGroove2
16th Apr 2009, 14:43
more advanced it depends in regards of what, because some weapons didn't act in a logical manner
-> assault rifle
I just like the design and its versatility, but it wasn't well made in function therms and the damage dealt with bullets are really crapped

You say in DX we didn't have a guidance upgrade in the GEP gun, but it was incorporated in the weapon, my proposal make it not incorporated and you can put it later, where is the better technology on that ?
An unguided weapon that become guided after and a weapon with the system already incorporated.

Oh yeah DX 3 will be more advanced than DX just because I can have an unguided launcher with the ability to become guided after, and my 30 cartridges / clip 20 mm grenade launcher is a prehistoric gun :rasp:

wow. way to miss the point.

WhatsHisFace
16th Apr 2009, 14:45
Question:

how do you guys feel about weapons with regard to the story, the cannon? I mean... i just read a post above where it's mentioned that they should have a GEP guidance system upgrade, which is something that DX did not have. Do you think it's important for weapons to follow the cannon... i just imagining some of the hardcore types getting bent out of shape about weapons being more advanced in DX3 than in DX. which i don't personally agree with.
Cannon is everything, in my opinion. If it doesn't feel like it's belonging in the Deus Ex universe (even in terms of timing) it's going to make the game overall feel cheaper, and less thought-out.

I think in real life Blade_Hunter is one of those insane people with a walk-in gun safe and every weekend he goes shooting at live prey. Every time we talk about this he starts bringing up guns that would make John Carmack freak.

Blade_hunter
16th Apr 2009, 15:03
Haha you are amazing WHF, you pretend things you even don't know, but the guns ingame doesn't even follow their technology description for some of them
I propose guns of every kind not only devastating guns, sorry I'm the only one who proposed guns made specifically for crowd control.

Also you are the kind of people who said "How fun it was burning kids in the game", and you think I'm insane, haha, perhaps I propose strange things sometimes but you don't seem to have a pure mind, next time avoid personal attacks or keep them for you, because I'm not on a forum for that.

InGroove2
16th Apr 2009, 15:13
Cannon is everything, in my opinion. If it doesn't feel like it's belonging in the Deus Ex universe (even in terms of timing) it's going to make the game overall feel cheaper, and less thought-out.

I think in real life Blade_Hunter is one of those insane people with a walk-in gun safe and every weekend he goes shooting at live prey. Every time we talk about this he starts bringing up guns that would make John Carmack freak.

do you, then, think it's realistic (that is, in our world) to think a game of this public prominence can feasibly, within the burden of making money, make a game with weapons and technology that isn't even as "hollywood" as DX1?

i mean, do you think game with that kind of intellect would make money? and furthermore do you think any company of that size would be allowed to have the balls to create a game with thatkind of intellect.

i said i didn't necessarily agree with the strict cannon idea, but only in the sense that i just don't see it as being possible so i don't tend to knock points off for having some guns that, technologically, aren't in cannon. in a perfect world, i'd want strict cannon too.

WhatsHisFace
16th Apr 2009, 15:31
do you, then, think it's realistic (that is, in our world) to think a game of this public prominence can feasibly, within the burden of making money, make a game with weapons and technology that isn't even as "hollywood" as DX1?

i mean, do you think game with that kind of intellect would make money? and furthermore do you think any company of that size would be allowed to have the balls to create a game with thatkind of intellect.

i said i didn't necessarily agree with the strict cannon idea, but only in the sense that i just don't see it as being possible so i don't tend to knock points off for having some guns that, technologically, aren't in cannon. in a perfect world, i'd want strict cannon too.

Low-tech, "non-Hollywood" guns sell games just fine.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/6/914586_front.jpg

InGroove2
16th Apr 2009, 15:41
Low-tech, "non-Hollywood" guns sell games just fine.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/6/914586_front.jpg

hahaha, good call! though the gimmick of the game is kinda standard warefare... where as DX is cyber punk. but i digress.

gamer0004
16th Apr 2009, 17:38
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h73/gamer4/914586_front.jpg

Just to make sure...

Spyhopping
16th Apr 2009, 18:04
Now we've even got recruitment posters for the anti health regen movement. Almost makes me want to join. :D

LatwPIAT
16th Apr 2009, 18:18
Now we've even got recruitment posters for the anti health regen movement. Almost makes me want to join. :D

Of course, the first Call of Duty didn't have automatic health regeneration...

Blade_hunter
16th Apr 2009, 18:20
Eh Can I say we can have something like Flashpoint or Red orchestra ?
I don't say DX should be like those games but I mean about the simulation aspect of those games, we can have machine guns or other heavy weaponry and doesn't have an hollywood action game at all.
Deus ex have some effective weaponry and it's not a brutal game or a movie action game.

The game speed, the movements allowed and style, the manner how work the weapons (brutal or not), the item supply, the damage system or how much you are vulnerable are things who determinate what kind of game it is.

Deus ex is a game with a simulation aspect, but not fully we can make combat also the weaponry is on the mid range...

K^2
16th Apr 2009, 20:19
For general reference.

cannon (http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=cannon&search=search)
canon (http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=canon&search=search)

Blade_hunter
16th Apr 2009, 20:32
Thanks K^2 I've got some misunderstanding about that :confused:

InGroove2
16th Apr 2009, 21:31
For general reference.

cannon (http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=cannon&search=search)
canon (http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=canon&search=search)

guilty. sars.

Ninjerk
17th Apr 2009, 14:42
I thought I was the only one that noticed.

SwDx3
19th Apr 2009, 14:24
However the weapons will function,
each weapon should have its own feel,
meaning unique reload, cocking, idle animation, recoil, handling.
And upgrades (or skill traits)
should change the way the weapon looks on-screen
[A laser sight will be attached to the barrel or handguard(rifle)
a trained PC will hold the weapon in a different angle(reducing recoil etc)
a magazine mod will change the weapon's look and reload anmation]
surely, this is all very tricky create and balance in reality,
but a simple stat change doesn't sound very interesting nor compelling
to go an entire mission to acquire, or to implement, does it?

This is my opinion, in the best interests of the game.

Snake04
19th Apr 2009, 15:00
Hey guys and girls i am back.Ok back on the topic i want each gun to have its own ammo and 2 or more types like 35.Cal which has 10 rounds or 45.Cal which has 7 rounds.

Blade_hunter
19th Apr 2009, 18:12
For me if they use a low amount of weapons that use ammo it could be good if the gun is clip fed or something like that, also the gun could be changed for a drum in the case of an assault rifle or a clip fed shotgun...

I talk about grenade launchers and shotguns, but a crossbow / dart gun / compound bow could have a good variety too

We got for a mini crossbow

Tranquilizer darts
Normal darts
Flare darts
thoose are from the game

Whistling dart (it does less damage than most darts but that's not the use ;) )
Fire dart
Electric (useless against robots it's more against enemies who are invulnerable to tranquilizers)

The electric dart couldn't knock all enemies with one shot (too easy)

I won't propose much because if the weapon is too versatile despite the size it could be not good, a shotgun and a grenade launcher, that's normal because they are versatile IRL, also they are bigger and noisy
but if we got bigger bows perhaps it could be good.

I found something about crossbows
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow
and in the bottom we can find something about the modern use and the military use.

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/rept_xbow.htm
an interesting article about a repeating crossbow (don't be afraid it's not a chaingun with arrows ^^ it's only the chu ko nu)
Even the DX crossbow should work second that principle except it has a better fire control

Spyhopping
19th Apr 2009, 18:30
I loved playing non-lethal with the mini crossbow. We have a full sized version making an appearance in DX3 don't we?

Non lethal weapons were always great in splinter cell; even better that they were a very limited resource. Firing the sticky electric thingy into water, plus the sticky cameras and gas canister distractor wotsits... In case you didn't notice, I can't quite remember the terminology for them.

Blade_hunter
19th Apr 2009, 20:17
You did well to talk about splinter cell because they use a grenade launcher for non lethal purposes, that's what I'm about by the grenade launcher proposal

We got big weapons in DX and a dedicated grenade launcher should come into our arsenal also non killers should use that weapon or use an assault rifle with an underbarrel grenade launcher, instead of a rocket launcher

Also I think the Ring Airfoil grenade should be a good addition, as some more original ammo, the electric shocker should be in a DX game
(The ring airfoil grenade is a non lethal ammo for the ones who have some doubts)

Some other players could keep their rocket launcher also the RL is for better ranges, but a grenade launcher with a ton of ammo variety should come into the game
http://www.big-ordnance.com/grenades/grenades4.htm

I found a site with grenades I hope this could help :)
Second what I know about grenade launchers some couldn't use every grenade, that could be a good if we use different models some players should choose the weapon that fit with their own preferences

for the rest there is an interesting article on the wikipedia about less lethal weapons and we can see grenade launchers and shotguns in them since it's special ammo for those weapons, also we got dart guns :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less-lethal_weapon

I think rifle grenades should come but not all rifles could use those devices and also a rifle grenade is less accurate than a dedicated launcher or an underbarrel one

Blade_hunter
20th Apr 2009, 23:26
I want to put an up to this thread, just because there is a cool video about a TASER shell called XREP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtHi_0Qc3Ts

A non lethal shotgun that delivers the same kinetic energy whatever the range !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsLqmiF7Fp0
the same with some other less lethal weapons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP65MLiGhgU

Our personal anti rocket in a previous technology
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUTMkUP17jc

Some other cool vids ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFrPwryuxOk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFr-i3SLRVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST4-i-z0rWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQwO7-JMvE

I want to ask something about the canon because I want something clear about the canon of Deus Ex.
Deus Ex was a game with lethal and non lethal weapons it comes also with brutal, tactical and subtle weapons

I want to see weapons with targeting assistance systems, some remote controlled weapons, items, and even biomods (we got the cool spydrone :) )
A complete arsenal of weapons objects and even biomods, that could fit with everybody tastes, tactics and manner to play.
It's a bit hard on todays to invent something in therms of weapons, since most of them were invented before in games/movies or exists in reality, but they never be used in game.
I think and perhaps Deus Ex isn't the game that should create the most innovative weapon, but I think it could be unique to Deus Ex 3 even if it's basically a classic weapon

Deus Ex for example got an original Plasma rifle, but many games got that before, but none of them got one that works like the Deus Ex version and even got the same functions like the scope

EDIT:

A cool tool asset for breaching doors silently
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF91f0CIY80

Every body have seen the metal storm with their gun that fire 1 000 000 rounds / min
but this is an explanation about the technology
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgfrY4nKUh8

splyez
5th May 2009, 07:28
ok, not to sound like a whiner BUT, universal ammo was/is probably the most idiotic idea in the history of video games...

would be nice to get a weapon modification system similiar to that of crysis. ( or better ofc :D)

ZippyDSMlee
7th May 2009, 04:37
After being annoyed with Bioshock's mod system I would kill for a proper stackable mod system.

Mods would stack based on rarity of the weapon or something like it, a normal range pistol gets 2X2(2 mods at 2 levels each) mods, a high range pistol 2X3-3X23X3 and a super rare pistol gets 4X3.

So basically with 10 or so mods you can stack and make a very customized weapon, one could use nanos and a work bench to dissasemble the nannos either you get the mods back or the weapon but not both.
Most mods would be random drops or bought from vendors like the odds and sods in BS. This adds life to the game and a reason to reply it a few time choosing 1 or 2 weapons to fully rig out.

U-Ammo was not that bad not when you can pull nanos out of the air and make sht up. People forget nanos were everywhere why carry ammos with you when the clip can literally manufacture them from a supply of boxed nanos....

The trouble with U ammo is they didn't think about it to much, if you have a deep modding system then add on how much ammo is taken for the weapon then calculate in any reductions with ammo saver mods, also you need to buy upgrades to ammo storage so you can carry more ammo so you can use your weapons the way you want. alternative ammo can easily be done with a mod leave the remaining upgrade slots in that row as a 1X1 or 1X2 slot.

The main complaints about U ammo I have heard are you can't use the sniper or rocket launcher much without killing off your ammo supply that brings to mind individual storage for each weapon class (rocket,shotgun shell,pistol bullet,machine gun bullet,ect) bring up a mini menu to go through with the analog stick moving ammo to the appropriate ammo class, if you use a weapon its automatically filled to half on its pool so you don't have to nit pick it but if you are low on ammo you can dump the ammo for another weapon back into the main ammo pool and convert it to whatever ammo you need. For a world like DX2 its easy to get nanos so converting them and cross converting them should be relatively easy.

Basically like if you had a fully stocked shop on you all the time that was cheap to use, but DX3 is a preqaule so super fancy nano tech should be a rarity so as long as there are shops or a way to convert/trade ammo for another then the game wont be deficient in that department.

It would be neat if you had a ammo conversion box to play with though
pistol bullet: 1=1
rocket:1=100 pistol bullet's
shotgun:1=10 pistol bullets
machine gun bullet:1=5 pistol bullets
Dart=1=5
Bolt=1=20

I use whatever weapon I like in the order of the ammo I can get for it mini crossbow/bolt launcher/pistol/shotgun,ect so U ammo is not that annoying to me.


I been out of the loop on DX3 stuff for a year had to go rage over how simple BS was, now I am back, what I miss? :flowers:

Jerion
7th May 2009, 12:28
After being annoyed with Bioshock's mod system I would kill for a proper stackable mod system.

Mods would stack based on rarity of the weapon or something like it, a normal range pistol gets 2X2(2 mods at 2 levels each) mods, a high range pistol 2X3-3X23X3 and a super rare pistol gets 4X3.

So basically with 10 or so mods you can stack and make a very customized weapon, one could use nanos and a work bench to dissasemble the nannos either you get the mods back or the weapon but not both.
Most mods would be random drops or bought from vendors like the odds and sods in BS. This adds life to the game and a reason to reply it a few time choosing 1 or 2 weapons to fully rig out.

U-Ammo was not that bad not when you can pull nanos out of the air and make sht up. People forget nanos were everywhere why carry ammos with you when the clip can literally manufacture them from a supply of boxed nanos....

The trouble with U ammo is they didn't think about it to much, if you have a deep modding system then add on how much ammo is taken for the weapon then calculate in any reductions with ammo saver mods, also you need to buy upgrades to ammo storage so you can carry more ammo so you can use your weapons the way you want. alternative ammo can easily be done with a mod leave the remaining upgrade slots in that row as a 1X1 or 1X2 slot.

The main complaints about U ammo I have heard are you can't use the sniper or rocket launcher much without killing off your ammo supply that brings to mind individual storage for each weapon class (rocket,shotgun shell,pistol bullet,machine gun bullet,ect) bring up a mini menu to go through with the analog stick moving ammo to the appropriate ammo class, if you use a weapon its automatically filled to half on its pool so you don't have to nit pick it but if you are low on ammo you can dump the ammo for another weapon back into the main ammo pool and convert it to whatever ammo you need. For a world like DX2 its easy to get nanos so converting them and cross converting them should be relatively easy.

Basically like if you had a fully stocked shop on you all the time that was cheap to use, but DX3 is a preqaule so super fancy nano tech should be a rarity so as long as there are shops or a way to convert/trade ammo for another then the game wont be deficient in that department.

It would be neat if you had a ammo conversion box to play with though
pistol bullet: 1=1
rocket:1=100 pistol bullet's
shotgun:1=10 pistol bullets
machine gun bullet:1=5 pistol bullets
Dart=1=5
Bolt=1=20

I use whatever weapon I like in the order of the ammo I can get for it mini crossbow/bolt launcher/pistol/shotgun,ect so U ammo is not that annoying to me.


I been out of the loop on DX3 stuff for a year had to go rage over how simple BS was, now I am back, what I miss? :flowers:

Quite a lot mate, Quite a lot. You should check out the FAQ thread to get up to speed on what we know about DX3.

ZippyDSMlee
8th May 2009, 01:18
Quite a lot mate, Quite a lot. You should check out the FAQ thread to get up to speed on what we know about DX3.

Will do, and then I will whine and complain to no end about it :P

-metalhead-
16th May 2009, 23:31
I would love to actually be able to see a scope mod mounted to the top of a gun or a laser at the bottom of a barrel, etc. Think of all the possibilities. Extended clip, accuracy (increased barrel length or something), stuff like that would be tight! :thumb:

ZippyDSMlee
16th May 2009, 23:42
I would love to actually be able to see a scope mod mounted to the top of a gun or a laser at the bottom of a barrel, etc. Think of all the possibilities. Extended clip, accuracy (increased barrel length or something), stuff like that would be tight! :thumb:

It would be neat if you could have a 3X3 or 4X4 LCD screen on a gun not only for zoom but alternative views night vision/IR,ect but I guess it would be redundant with all the stuff going on.

Blade_hunter
18th May 2009, 22:42
OC 14 Groza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKWJ0p9O6wE
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as09-e.htm

FN 2000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeYKe_RyeUs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd-dFpgxE4M
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as41-e.htm

K-11 assault rifle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_MdhG6bxao
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as98-e.htm

HK G11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-XtJ016rFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JWCEmCgD8
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as42-e.htm

Steyr ACR
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as56-e.htm

ASM-DT "Morskoj Lev"
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as95-e.htm

HK XM8 (oicw Increment 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63cxeEq5gUk
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm
XM25 (oicw Increment 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHf_vMd5MOQ (video about the XM 307 auto grenade launcher, but the ammo is the same 25mm airbust grenade)
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl13-e.htm
OICW (The prototype)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNdLFRhDhtk (this is the only video I found)
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm

Some vids and links were provided before and the models were known for most of them, bu I think there is some prototypes of ACR or OICW, and I want to talk about their particularities like aiming systems, ammo particularities and their use in the game

I think for example an assault rifle could fire underwater ammo, got an ACR with a multishot grenade launcher that use laser targeting systems to help us to chose the right angle to throw the grenade at the right place, or make it that detonate in the air or even after bouncing.
special ammo like better anti armor rounds or anti organic that could deliver enought stopping power even if the enemy have a ballistic armor.

Abram730
19th May 2009, 05:54
The K-11 looks nice thanks Blade_hunter.

The the fully automated Samsung SGR-A1 sentry gun($200k)
5.56mm and can track targets from 2.5miles away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5YftEAbmMQ

Blade_hunter
19th May 2009, 14:08
Cool vid sometimes we can see Deus Ex stuff in a certain manner :D

Abram730
20th May 2009, 00:25
One of the comments is "Don't worry, I'm sure it can be bypassed with 4 multitools or less."

Blade_hunter
20th May 2009, 15:32
LOL ^^ I didn't noticed that comment :D

Blade_hunter
22nd May 2009, 12:43
Advanced combat rifles
http://www.orbitalvector.com/Firearms/Advanced%20Combat%20Rifles/ADVANCED%20COMBAT%20RIFLES.htm
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/blyle/ACR.htm
We ca see the AAI and
I post a link about flechette ammo
http://www.thegunzone.com/spiw.html
HK G11 data
http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm

Some REMTEK pages
http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/acr/acr.htm
http://www.remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g11/g11.htm

5.56 mm ammo
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/ammunition-types-and-char.shtml
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

7.62 mm ammo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x51mm_NATO
the Saboted light armor penetrator (7.62x51 NATO and .50 BMG)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saboted_Light_Armor_Penetrator_(SLAP)

Bloodwolf806
22nd May 2009, 22:01
I thought it was cool that JC was using a Glock almost 100 years after it was invented. Much like how the 1911 is still in use today. Great designs never age. I'm gonna miss this bad boy in DX3:
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/129757000/129757886/pix324148437.jpg

KSingh77
5th Jun 2009, 21:39
Nice gun

Archy
7th Jun 2009, 03:15
My thoughts on this.

Uni Ammo

In my eyes, uni-ammo is a very easy solution to one problem faced by the developers: how do we appeal to casual gamers? And while it does work, it has massive collateral damage, especially to loyal fans. (e.g. 99% of the forum members) It lowers complexity, and removes a very interesting element from the original games.

Really, universal ammo is really unnecessary. I mean, look at Half-Life 2. It sold millions of copies and made Valve rich. Did you see any uni-ammo bumping around there? No! You'd think Eidos would learn from that. (No offense to you Rene, I know you guys up in Montréal are working your butts off for us) Along with being unnecessary, though, universal-ammo can be very negative towards encouraging play styles.

For an example, say someone at Eidos Montréal was making a level where they are encouraging stealth tactics. With individual types of ammo, that'd be easy. Just have an intense firefight at the start to exhaust the player's ammo. After that, spawn around some clips for a stealth pistol in reasonable areas, and you have a tense level where getting caught is gonna spell doom for ya.

However, throw universal ammunition into the equation, and that tense level suddenly goes to crap. Rather than being forced to fish around for that stealth pistol in order to complete the level, that player being forced to do stealth suddenly is gonna go blasting around his shotgun, and mowing down everyone in 5 minutes. Imagine that for your game. Not too good.

So basically, I'm saying NO to uni-ammo.

Weapons

This is just basically a list of weapons I'd like to see in the game with a crapload of details you probably won't read.

Pistol

This one's a no-brainer. A pistol is essential for a game like Deus Ex. However, I'd like to see Eidos Montréal do something different. Personally, I think the pistol should be how it was in the original Deus Ex: a weapon that's actually useful. I don't want to see a direct port of the Invisible War pistol. (I'm serious, it takes 5 shots to the head to take an SSC Guard down with that thing- on REALISTIC)

I think the pistol should be a weapon which you can easily become clingy to. It should probably be the most moddable weapon in the entire game. That would definitely increase its lifetime in the players' tool belts. Speaking of lifetime, I think it should start out as the player's main, love-it-and-mod-it weapon, then towards the end, have it as the player's back up weapon in case his or her main one runs out of ammo.

Upgraded Pistol

I'd really like to see this in the game; an Upgraded Pistol. Basically, a better version of the pistol you get at the start of the game. Make it harder to mod, but in its base form, very useful. I have a list of ways this can be pulled off, which I'm actually gonna show right here.


Machine Pistol - Rapid fire shooting, half the damage per shot compared to pistol.
Scoped Pistol - Has a scope and tripod for long ranges. Same damage but lower recoil than base pistol.
Stealth Pistol - Quieter than normal pistol with silencer upgrade, about 3/4 damage and 7/8 accuracy.


I guess you guys can take your pick on which one you'd like to see in game. :p

Sub-Machine Gun

Basically, the same concept as the machine pistol. Depends on whether it gets implemented or not. (Like Eidos would see this)

Assault-Rifle

Using the same concept as the upgraded pistol, this is just applying that concept to the SMG. In my opinion, this gun should have higher damage than an SMG, but at the same time, give it a lower fire-rate so it's at least a slightly tough choice whether you should or shouldn't keep your SMG. I guess MAYBE give it a scope.

Rocket-Launcher

For the guys who like big explosions, I guess. Maybe have it so upgrading it is practically impossible. That way people wouldn't take to using it that much. That would really balance things out.

Sniper Rifle

Again, a no-brainer. Even Mirror's Edge had this. I think that this time around in Deus Ex it should be bolt-action. Remember, this is only about 20 years into the future. They were using those things back in the 60s, and look at us now. The sniper should probably have some form of futuristic twist, though. Maybe have it so it can shoot from extremely long distances, or have it so it has near perfect reliability. (if a reliability model is put in-game)

Baton

A stick for hitting people with. Maybe give it a stun feature.

TASER

Long range baton. Woohoo.

All your melêe stuff

Crowbars, lead pipes, knives, yo mama, and any other hard object.

Mods

I'm just gonna stick to the new stuff here.

Tripod

Basically, have it so it increases weapon accuracy, effectively replacing the accuracy mod with one attachment.

Shield

Gives a small, built in shield to protect you from enemy fire. Possibly upgradeable.

Upgradable Scope

Improves the scope by adding zoom levels, or even night vision.

Um... so, yeah. If you read through that you get a cookie.

Blade_hunter
7th Jun 2009, 15:11
You know machine pistols have some inconvenients to keep 3/4 of a basic pistol damage, in full auto it's inaccurate
Also Invisible War have pretty much underpowered weapons, also this is why the pistol was a crap, it's underpowered and the headshot multiplier was too low

In Deus Ex we can upgrade the GEP gun but there is no upgrades about it's fire power because it's impossible to do that.
To have a more powerful rocket launcher you need to use a more powerful rocket, that's not the case of the guns that can be upgraded for that or downgraded with a silencer.
Also rocket launchers are somewhat outdoor weapons, In Deus Ex those weapons were pretty much used for killing robots, destroying walls (those with a breach or some wooden ones), doors, safes, cameras turrets laser beam emitters.
IRL rocket launchers are often fitted with anti armor warheads, such as HEAT rounds that focuses the explosion to the front side and propels a copper piece to pierce armor, also there is some sabotted warheads that are better for fighting amored threats than Heat rounds also the GEP gun uses HE rockets it's a bit different compared with real RLs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPgdFV19XpQ

Machine pistols can be only automatic pistols like some pistols with 3 rounds burst fire like the beretta M93 R or something fully automatic like the glock 18 with full auto capability.
It's not an upgraded pistol it's just an other model ;)
Most machine pistols are simply guns like the UZIs, TMP, Ingram
Also it's not easy to use a pistol and deploy an huge tripod for that.
http://kencooutdoors.com/products.html jut look at it

Assault rifles are most common actually it's an all around weapon, normally this weapon can pierce armor that's not the case of a SMG.
The assault rifle can fit with the sniper role, semi auto rifle role, machine gun role and some underbarrel options are grenade launcher / shotgun.
Everything depends on guns configuration and fire mode.

Also the main advantages of SMGs are the fact they are better in closed spaces because they are easier to maneuver, smaller than Assault rifles,they have often a better fire rate, and less recoil
Assault rifles can pierce armor, are more powerful than SMGs, are more accurate, have better range and fire fast bullets.

Normally I think Deus Ex should keep a dynamic aiming system, because it's realistic and this made automatic weapons at their real place.
when you fire a fast weapon, the weapon goes up and we loose the entire accuracy, we are much less accurate with a machine gun than with a semi auto gun.
That would mean an assault rifle would be more difficult to maneuver than an SMG even if some recent developments tends to made the carbine assault rifle more efficient than SMGs due to use of ballistic armors.
But some SMGs like the P90 or the MP7 are perhaps the future of the SMGs

Tripods I think they should be to made a machine gun turret or used with some other heavy weaponry
For rifles we have bipods that's just a stabilizer for using rifles in prone position, it works with assault rifles, snipers and machine guns. also bipods are small compared to tripods and often integrated ...

The sniper In Deus Ex we have a semi auto sniper rifle, and some bolt action rifles were made recently
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn93-e.htm
There is a kind of rifles that rare are the persons who talk about they are the anti material rifles
Anti armor sniper rifles
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn67-e.htm

About Taser
this is a pistol that throws two wires
http://www.aurorawdc.com/ci/taser_stinger.jpg
just like that
The stun prod
http://www.hanseung.co.kr/builder_images/electric_stun_gun_product15.jpg
is something like that it's only a melee weapon

But actually there is a shotgun shell that tends to replace it
http://dvice.com/pics/taser_putthehurt.jpg

About the shield (I mean a real shield like the ones used by police)
I think it should be an item that can complete a pistol, a riot prod or a baton
http://www.arnold-ppe.com/dynamicdata/data/AC4_prod_pg.jpg
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1245/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1245-W643.jpg

Police weapons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Police_weapons
this haven't all weapons that police actually use but there is good bunch of them

pretty good ideas in a whole

Xesum
7th Jun 2009, 17:47
The game is set before the First Deus Ex, therefore Ammo can't be Universal.

Weapon mods will actually be proper bits of equipment.

Blade_hunter
7th Jun 2009, 19:55
Yes the AI should react if they see something suspicious, but the default of the Deus Ex AI was perhaps the reaction time, because the AI reacts when they see beams and flashlights
As for the mini shield ok it can be used for ... sniping ?

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/170269a_sm.jpg
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/170280_tripod_sm.jpg
they're cool revolvers isn't it ?
I just have to say some sniper rifles uses sometimes revolver barrels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shield
the only article about gun shields

About the Uni ammo even in the future uni ammo wouldn't exist, and more the one seen in DX 2 where weapons aren't reloadable, where the ammo is too polyfunctional, a thing that is only possible in a virtual world
not in the future, we need to put some something to our gun and the future will be energy weapons, caseless ammo, railguns or even something like the Metal Storm system an integrated barrel system where the cartridges are inside.


Why energy weapons ? because the energy is easily transportable and can be recharged with a wall outlet !!
Actually they aren't profitable compared with actual weapons
Why caseless ammo ? because caseless ammo is lighter than cased bullets, smaller and with the same power :)
Caseless ammo isn't technologically advanced as cased ammo but they are under research because they are actually unstable
Why railguns ? because slug based weapons needs powder to propel projectiles and ejection systems, railguns are the future because we don't need anymore ejection systems the cartridge is the projectile !!
Actually railguns needs a looot of power and there isn't weapons that is powerful enough and compact to compete with conventional guns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFr-i3SLRVM just look at this
I forget to talk about our less lethal weapons but most of them cames up with Direct energy weapons like a lightening gun ;)

Archy
7th Jun 2009, 22:52
I was actually thinking in that post that gun-shields could be for those run 'n' gun players. After all, "the market has matured."

Blade_hunter
7th Jun 2009, 23:11
Shields wouldn't mean run 'n' gun, some persons suggested shields as a mechamod.
I don't think even a machinegun or other heavy weaponry will transform Deus Ex in a mindless shooter because Deus Ex itself got some piece of weapons that are much more overpowered than a machine pistol with a shield ;)

Jerion
8th Jun 2009, 04:41
Deus Ex had a kickass Rocket Launcher, an even stronger disposable rocket launcher, and a Plasma Rifle. Did that make it a run-n-gun shooter? No.:)

TALLGEESE
8th Jun 2009, 08:54
i hope the pistol turns out good, it is my favorite weapon in DX1.
also, i wonder if you will be able to look down the sights on DX3?
i think i would like that very much, it adds a more realistic feel when picking people off with a non scoped weapon.

Blade_hunter
8th Jun 2009, 10:52
Deus Ex had a kickass Rocket Launcher, an even stronger disposable rocket launcher, and a Plasma Rifle. Did that make it a run-n-gun shooter? No.:)

Exactly what I meant :)

I think the Pistol should return with its true power, the best of all it's the fact we can made head shots with a single shot.
I don't know if DX 3 have Ironsighting, but many people want that and I think it's a good feature :)

TALLGEESE
9th Jun 2009, 23:09
get pills,against my orders! get moving,against my orders! lol i want that CD.

Blade_hunter
9th Jun 2009, 23:25
lol you watched my signature ^^

Archy
10th Jun 2009, 00:46
Deus Ex had a kickass Rocket Launcher, an even stronger disposable rocket launcher, and a Plasma Rifle. Did that make it a run-n-gun shooter? No.:)

Good point.I was just thinking it'd make things a bit more hospitable to the run 'n' gun shooters so a larger audience is targeted.

DIFFERENT TOPIC

I got another idea coming from the shield idea: body armour.

Basically, it would work just the Hazmat suits, except rather than running out of steam over time, it runs out of steam once shot enough. Even better, it could use the system in System Shock's shield augmentation. Rather than absorb all damage no questions asked, it'll absorb maybe a quarter of it, or a third. That way body armour isn't a free shoot-everyone-and-live-happily-ever-after item.

Even better, it could even become worse at absorbing shots after taking enough damage.

Now THAT, would be coooool.

Blade_hunter
10th Jun 2009, 19:52
For myself I think armors should work, half RPG and half FPS

-Armor give you a permanent protection

Armors are more effective against non piercing bullets than piercing ones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_vest
That would mean we can receive damages from rifles if we got a light armor

Half RPG because we need to use the inventory sheet to wear the armor, we can see the stats and maybe repair it (NPC, tools, etc)
FPS localized damage, hit points etc ...
I suggested HP based armor that when we wear a body armor the armor "adds" its hit points to ours, but when the armor loose a certain percentage of its HP we begins to lose our HPs, some armors can't protect us against all threats, but if we use a light armor we receive damages even if the armor had full HP in the case of the enemy uses a perforating rounds from rifles ...

Full FPS, nothing forbids to an FPS to wear or unwear suits but it's completely HP based and doesn't mean we have partial protection, In SOF 2 the armor only protects our torso, but often they acts as damage filters, except the UT shield belt but when it loses its HP we are vulnerable again.
But in FPS the only mean we have to "repair" our protection it's to wear a new one.

Full RPG, most RPGs made body armors, or anythings like that damage filter only, some games like Diablo manage the item degradation and the item becomes useless until it's repaired, but some other games the armors are invulnerable and protects us against some threats in relation to the stats, like fire, lethal weapons, Ice, physical damage, energy etc ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazmat_suit
I found an article about Hazmats

I think we should have fire proof suits, maybe protections against energy weapons ... but the best of all is to have enemies wearing special protections.

Seeing enemies with shields, armors, hazmats, and some other protective suits on them, that wouldn't mean we need to play action, but if we chose the wrong weapon/ammo we can pay that by being dead.
In DX using a flamethrower, a crossbow dart, and many things like that against MJ12 commandos and Some nano/mecha augmented agents (everything except MIBs and WIBs) doesn't damage them.
That means if we shoot enemies we need to be accurate and shoot them on weak parts also humans could be more interesting to fight and even using infiltration tactics could avoid some worries, like fighting face to face an enemy with a shield, it's perhaps better to use a quiet weapon and shoot him when the enemy is unalerted ...

Archy
11th Jun 2009, 20:15
Good point, but let's get back onto the topic of Guns, Ammo and Mods, instead of items.