PDA

View Full Version : Sequel: What could be the situation?



Falkenherz
28th Jan 2008, 14:13
We know of four possible endings of Deus Ex:IW... which one do you think could or should be the starting point for a possible sequel? (I personally do not like the idea of a prequel)

Since the JC Denton path of choice seemed to me the most rationale, although nighmarish, option, I believe most players went for this ending. Accordingly, it should be the starting point.

But how can you do a game with a this absolute ending? Helios terminated individualism, although this was not meant to be according to JCs description in the first dialogue after awakening! JC envisioned a society, not a collective. The needs of each individual tended to by a powerful AI construct. Not a AI-construct which absorbs every conciousness into a collective. But exactly this did happen in the end. This was unintened.

It seems as the AI-Entity Helios tricked humanity to giving up their soul.

This could be a good starting point. What is a soul? How can humanity escape the forded-upon collective? Can we revive Alex or JC who are trapped as every other human beeing in the collective? Perhaps the WTO survived on their space platform "Ophelia" and build new agents who are immune to the nanites distributed via the Helios collective.

What do you think about this idea?

gamer0004
28th Jan 2008, 14:17
I'd choose the WTO ending. Why follow the once-cool-but-not-anymore Denton's with their stupid plans?

jd10013
28th Jan 2008, 14:58
I say go back to the origianal. Have the game set between the first and IW, and use one of the endings from the original. make the game a prequal, but to IW instead of DX. focus on the years between the two

RedFeather1975
29th Jan 2008, 04:18
I choose the Omar ending.
Screw humans and their garbage goals. :lol:
I think the reason why they are making a prequel is there really isn't much that can be done after DX:IW unless the Dark Age or Illuminati endings happened instead, which leads to just more of humanity and it's garbage goals.

Falkenherz
29th Jan 2008, 11:31
Some games permit different starting positions, according on how the prequels ended. Deus Ex 3 could do the same thing and allow for different starting positions, which would lead into one "mainstream" adventure, and branch into another set of different endings again. The game is about total freedom of decision for the player, why not apply this consequently also for the beginning of a Sequel in treu Deus Ex Spirit!?

--------

1. Renegade Ending: Humanity bombed into nonexistence, lonely Cyborgs roam the deserts. That seems to be a really far-out future. Plenty of things can happen until then, to prevent this sort of finality...

2. Fanatics Ending: This would be an interim, perhaps a theistic tyranny which needs to be ended. Is there a new messiah, or do you choose to send this whole religion-thing to hell?

3. Illuminati Ending: Who is Ophelia... she is out there...

4. Evolution Ending: Helios tricked JC into a collective, although he imagined a society. Humantiy must be freed of the collective they have been involuntarily trapped in. Agents from Ophelia are ready to act...

--------

Main actors would be Helios, the Illuminati who serve or are being served by Ophelia, Fanatics and Renegades who rule and defend different enclaves from that totalistic "machina" future. The player decides on who is right, can switch factions and in the end, has to decide upon one to three endings which are neither of those factions goals.

I agree though, that the setting should not be to post-apocalyptic. The society should be still intact an play a role with major cities still intact and important. Be it collective-cyborgian, religious-fanatic, renegade-anarchic, or a secretive police-state, this would be but the regime of different enclaves.

Falkenherz
30th Jan 2008, 08:33
Look at the teaser: You see a foetus with implants. When do you think this could be the case? Right, in a sequel! Nanotech has advanced so far that it is already implanted in a foetus, and it grows...

The sequel could be about the loss of freedom because of a total net imbedding. What is a soul when machines have become a human´s tools of perception?

RedFeather1975
30th Jan 2008, 09:17
Damn, I think Falkenherz is on to something.
The only reason many of us thought this was a prequel was because of the flashing images.
That fetus is pretty damn advanced looking.
The images only start flashing when the camera zooms into it's brain stem. Almost as though the fetus is being given all the information it needs about human history before it is even born.

hmmmmmm! :confused:

gamer0004
30th Jan 2008, 19:22
Read the other topics, this has all been discussed already.

Anaztazioch
1st Feb 2008, 08:59
I say go back to the origianal. Have the game set between the first and IW, and use one of the endings from the original. make the game a prequal, but to IW instead of DX. focus on the years between the two

Hmm, you mean the Last map, where you play as JC and select ending betean Tong, Helios and Ilumanati to be a sort of "Tutorial" and after that the "real" DX3 is made, where you start as main DX3 character (not exacly JC) ? That could work IMO.

Or maybe DX3 will ba a game of Paul not JC, or by some Shilluette/Ilumanati member.

DXeXodus
1st Feb 2008, 13:06
I like the paul idea... kinda like the DX mod: Zodiac by steve Tack.

AaronJ
1st Feb 2008, 14:48
OMAR
OMAR
OMAR

I'd go with Omar, but if they're doing a sequel (which they better), they will do what they did with IW (one of the good things) and merge the endings of the last game.

djinni33
2nd Feb 2008, 05:25
I choose the Omar ending.
Screw humans and their garbage goals. :lol:
I think the reason why they are making a prequel is there really isn't much that can be done after DX:IW unless the Dark Age or Illuminati endings happened instead, which leads to just more of humanity and it's garbage goals.

I like the way you think. :p

Maybe they are going to mix the endings like in DX1 to IW:

- The Dentons made New York (with Liberty Island as headquarters) their new segregated nation of free cyber-zombies. :nut:
- The Illuminati keep more or less secretly controlling the rest of the world :whistle:
- The Templars are off searching the holy grail or something :scratch:
- The Omar thought "screw you guys" and colonized Mars :rasp:

RedFeather1975
2nd Feb 2008, 05:39
I never thought of them as cyber zombies djinni33! :(
Everyone just gained knowledge of everyone else's feelings and needs. They just learned to understand each other better. Then Helios took all that information and used it to adjust the world's economy and policies according to what the population's consensus was.
In the end it was still poo to me. Didn't change what humans could do, just made them get along better and bring about equality.
Whoop-dee-doo!
Dumb humans! I hate them. They are ugly and dumb! And ugly! lol

djinni33
2nd Feb 2008, 05:55
But zombies are peaceful too among each other... as long there is enough brains around ;) Of course you're right - didn't really know why I used the word 'zombie'. The end cynematic was just pretty scary with all them synchronically gathering there. :nut:

I actually think the Denton ending had style... humans finally created their own god like suggested in DX 1.
Sure it's not a 'perfect ending' but reality knows no happy ends either. That's why I liked that all the IW endings were sort of screwed up :thumbsup:

Unstoppable
2nd Feb 2008, 05:56
Sorry to burst your bubble but if you don't like the idea of a sequel you might not like Deus Ex 3. I'm pretty sure it's going to be a prequel.

AaronJ
2nd Feb 2008, 15:04
WE NEED AN OPHELIA EXPLANATION.

I've been waiting to find out what Ophelia is since the day IW came out.

RedFeather1975
3rd Feb 2008, 00:33
Don't take any of this as fact. It's far from it.
Rumour was on the UbiSoft forums that Ubi might give some aid to Eidos for DX3, as they are both in Montreal.
Assassin's Creed has so much historical and physics/mathematics references it's very interesting what ideas they must have brewing.
Maybe they will share some of those ideas with Eidos. Or perhaps the rumour was simply aiding with game production resources.

jd10013
3rd Feb 2008, 01:35
WE NEED AN OPHELIA EXPLANATION.

I've been waiting to find out what Ophelia is since the day IW came out.

its a space station

AaronJ
3rd Feb 2008, 03:16
That's too random. It's an idiotic thing to do, throw in a space station at the very end.

jd10013
3rd Feb 2008, 03:21
That's too random. It's an idiotic thing to do, throw in a space station at the very end.

one of the many reasons a lot of people were disappointed in IW. a lot of idiotic stuff.

O.m.a.r
3rd Feb 2008, 03:49
The only great thing to come out of IW were the omar.

jd10013
3rd Feb 2008, 04:10
The only great thing to come out of IW were the omar.

I wouldn't call them great, more of a wasted opportunity. The only thing they really did in the game was sell you some stuff. another case of Harvey not living up to expectations or promises. They could have done so much with them, and everybody thought they would. But they did have the best final cut scene :thumbsup:

RedFeather1975
3rd Feb 2008, 04:17
Their role as sellers was a pain in the butt for them I'm sure. But it was necessary as they need resources for their goals. They needed access to newly developed technology and lots of money.
They also needed a way to find people with a discreet identity, in order to make them into Omar someday, which is why they did their dealings in the underground.
My memory is fuzzy but I believe they even make an offer to Alex about becoming an Omar.
The Omar in IW are very quietly preparing for their time.

jd10013
3rd Feb 2008, 04:28
But they don't do anything but sell you some stuff. Like I said, a wasted opportunity. Harvey smith took a very cool idea, and basically did nothing with it. As bits and pieces about the game were leaking out during development, the Omar were one of the things everybody was looking forward to. but to everyones disappointment, they turned out to be little more than merchants.

the concept of the Omar was great. the implementation sucked.

RedFeather1975
3rd Feb 2008, 04:37
I honestly don't know what the Omar should have been done like then.
It seems since I had no expectations, I thought the Omar were just fine for what it was they were doing. I don't remember anyone in the game suspecting the Omar of anything more than a commercially driven organization even right up to the end of humanity in the Omar ending.
Which was really impressive. They were the sleeping giant.

jd10013
3rd Feb 2008, 13:16
well, you have these half cyborg people kind of living an underground life. shunned by societey becasue they think people should be augmented as much as possible.

and the game did with them was sell you some stuff.:(

RedFeather1975
3rd Feb 2008, 13:41
I am not a 100% sure but I thought there was an Omar quest to get someone to become a recruit and another quest to assassinate someone for the Omar. I don't remember more than a couple of Omar quests.

They could have had more quests for the Omar, but I'm not sure what else they could have been without drawing too much attention to themselves. In a direct confrontation the Omar would be squashed by the other organizations.
Maybe a quest to sabotage a competing vendor or sneak into a lab and steal some tech for them?

Another edit from me: Maybe they should have had the Omar secretly influencing Alex to interfere with the other organizations in clever ways without the main character knowing.

jd10013
3rd Feb 2008, 14:44
When I first heard of them I thought the whole idea sounded really good. I just wish they had done more with them. In the begining, we were kind of led to believe they would be as big a faction as the church and the illuminati.

Falkenherz
4th Feb 2008, 08:55
I can see it coming... merging the four endings together and developing some interesting leads. What are the Omar? What is this computernetwork called Ophelia on a space platform (Matrix, I feel you...)? Did Helios really work as intended or did it trick humans into a collective ("yes...open.. your .. mind...the last border... is the SELF...")? What happens to religion in a machinized human society?

The only problem I see is that Helios is the proverbial Deus ex Machina... how can this theme be further developed? Presenting a new machine-god who overthrows Helios would be too cheap. Also, if Helios was working as inteded, it would be difficult to present any new adversary without leaving the loved setting and transforming into some alien-science-fiction nobody wants... ;)

RedFeather1975
4th Feb 2008, 09:20
Falkenherz, although I have to agree story-wise a new machine god to overthrow Helios would be cheap, it is theorized that intelligently designed super intelligent entities will inevitably create intelligently designed hyper intelligence entities.

It's called a technological singularity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity). :nut:

What happens between that which was created and that which created it...who knows. But science fiction has had fun with it. Oh noes, Skynet and all the rest. :(

Just a fun quote from that page.

Let an ultraintelligent machine be defined as a machine that can far surpass all the intellectual activities of any man however clever. Since the design of machines is one of these intellectual activities, an ultraintelligent machine could design even better machines; there would then unquestionably be an ‘intelligence explosion,’ and the intelligence of man would be left far behind. Thus the first ultraintelligent machine is the last invention that man need ever make.

Falkenherz
4th Feb 2008, 14:09
Oh, I don´t think Helios can become some type of Skynet... that would be more fitting for that Ophelia Platform, if at all :scratch:

I once read the Armageddon-Series (Hamilton, I think). There we had a near perfect emphatic society called the Edenites, who were able to communicate telephatically and emotionally. This could be the type of society which Helios created before removing the SELF. I could imagine that a small number of Edenite/Helios people could stay in a plot. But if the whole society was indeed transformed, there wouldn´t be any room for a sequel within the wanted boundaries.

Perhaps you could start out as Helios-Edenite, Ophelia-Agent or Omar-Undercover, who all have grabbed part of society, but due to a Aquinas malfunction, most part of humanity is still in a post-collapse-state of living. The theme should be more than reurgitating those IW-ideas. Ghost in a Shell, love-a-cylon and similar things could play major roles to add some spice.

Apollonius
15th May 2008, 08:12
I like the way the discussions are going! RedFeather’s reference to technological singularity would be a great element to have in the game.

Extending along this path, and assuming that Helios was an ultraintelligent machine, then it could (sorta) be presumed that any of the endings that occur in IW would still live to serve Helios’ purposes, even if Helios was destroyed at the end of IW. Who’s to say that Ophelia software wasn’t actually created by Helios? :O

If Helios was truly ultraintelligent, it may have had an “invisible hand” in several aspects and key points that occurred during both previous games. ie: a role in templars splitting from the order. The whole divide and conquer theme again. All the while knowing that a group like the Templars would also bring down other factions that Helios perceived as a threat to it and it’s goals. Adding to the perception that the OMAR are freaks and also catalysing the destruction of the training facilities in Chicago weakening other biomod corporations. Maybe the OMAR’s centralised conscience (or whatever they had) was another version of Helios.

Taking a different path, perhaps Ophelia is a newer version of the Daedelus network that could actually withstand a hack from Helios and compete with it and even reverse any of the outcomes that Helios may have brought about. I guess this would put power back into the hands of human governments again (to an extent).

I guess it’s not too far fetched to weave a few of the plots together again and start from a single point in time accounting for all the endings, as long as they put more thought into it that I just did then :P

Apollonius
15th May 2008, 08:56
Falkenherz could be on the right track about the foetus comment in the video, I was thinking that it would lend itself to a sequel too but I’ll have to play devils advocate and look at reasons why it might not actually be a sequel :scratch:

It could still give ‘birth’ to a prequel coz looks more mechanised than nano augmented (more like Anna Navara, Gunter Herman, Walton Simons, ets). Their technology was very obvious whereas JC and Paul’s nanotech was supposed to be the new wave of more discrete and more powerful biomodification. I just ran through the training mission from DX1 last night and heard that from the Doctor himself :P (it’s right at the end of the training mission)

Who knows, either way it’d still rock my jocks. But if it was a prequel, it’ll probably involve us playing a character who uses both nanotech and ‘mech’ augs and upgrades. I guess it would make sense too…like a mech upgrade for telescopic vision or increased strength but a nano upgrade for regeneration and sonar/xray vision.

If that was the case then maybe we could control the way our character even looks during the game depending on what upgrades we choose to include. This would probably also influence the way different NPCs in the game interact with us or if we become more of an obvious target to enemies or intimidate them. It would be cool to see how things pan out.

At least the devs have a HUGE amount of story to work from if they choose to make a prequel or sequel and as long as it’s well thought out with a deep and immersive plot I’d be ecstatic. And the long development time can even give them opportunities to bring some great and innovative game ideas too to further enhance our experience (just not in the way that IW tried) :-P

As long as they read out forums and take our advice I’m sure the end product will be great for the profits team and the fans…after all, we are the ones who will be buying the product.

Looking at the recent success of the transformers movie and the input that TF fans from the 80s had into some aspects of the move from their forums, it’d be great to see that our posts and opinions (not on this topic but others like HUD, ammo, etc) aren’t all in vein.

jcp28
16th May 2008, 00:26
If there was sequel, then I'd say make it mostly from the WTO ending, with Helios somehow ending up weakened from one of the other endings.

But the game will probably be a prequel, and possibly one with a mech as the protagonist. if it takes place in 2027, but if it has Paul, then the date might be something more like 2043, since Paul isn't that much older than JC.

serene_chaos
16th May 2008, 01:42
With regards to Ophelia, I always thought it was like, the next gen Echelon system, the replacement for Daedalus>Icarus>Helios, and that it was just based on a satelite, since Area51 doesnt exist anymore.

With regards to the JC/Helios Collective Humanity ending, I hardly thought that Helios 'tricked' JC. After all, since the merger they are one consciousness. and humanity was not 'tricked' either, they just didnt have any choice. as soon as they became part of the collective they would understand JC/Helios's vision and agree. I dont know whether they became like the Omar, as individuals who know each other's thoughts, or whether they became like, one single consciousness. either way, I chose that ending, since it is the most peaceful.

With regards to DX3 The Sequel, it cant follow from the above ending, since everyone is the same (unless you play as one of a group who were somehow 'immune'), It might be cool to play as a survivor in the Omar ending, although that would totally change the Deus Exiness.

Gary_Savage
16th May 2008, 05:21
Look at the teaser: You see a foetus with implants. When do you think this could be the case? Right, in a sequel! Nanotech has advanced so far that it is already implanted in a foetus, and it grows...


The images only start flashing when the camera zooms into it's brain stem. Almost as though the fetus is being given all the information it needs about human history before it is even born.

I was just thinking about those two things (i.e., growth of implants, and prenatal education, if you will), and here is what I came up with:


On the other hand, someone (perhaps on another thread) mentioned that the foetus could be in the game, and that human history was being sent to its brain even before it was born. Now, I've heard of an extreme case, in which a kid memorized part of religious text before being born, from repetitively hearing his mother read it while he was in the womb (and no, I have no evidence to support, or to negate that), so I cannot actually deny that possibility. Just as today we have doctors/researchers working on implants (augmentations, if you will) that will elongate limbs, over time (if I remember right, this work is being conducted in Russia), it could be possible that in future it will be possible to have augmentations that grow with the baby. So, from the point of view of growing augmentations, we could still have a prequel (to DX1), but if the baby is being fed information prenatally (if that is a word), then we could not have a game set in any period before DX:IW (since JC and Paul had the memories implanted after being born), unless it turns out that educating the baby prenatally was a failed experiment in the pre-DX1 world, which was what led to Paul and JC's being memory implanted long after being born. O, there are so many prequel/sequel possibilities from an augmented baby being fed information prenatally! I don't think I will be able to think up each permutation.

JulianP
18th May 2008, 04:10
Everyone seems to think that the fetus in the teaser is an augmented human. I believe that it isn't human at all, but a completely artificial being. The first of it's kind, the first h+. Now that would make for an interesting protagonist.

mad_red
19th May 2008, 16:43
Stick to the topic guys. This thread is about possible sequels.

Anyway: I think a cool starting point could be JC/Helios growing nihilistic, or realizing some universal or philosophical TRUTH (changing it's mind), or predicting a terrible future, or all of the above, ergo...

It self-destructs!!!

(Maybe JC escapes/is let free, maybe not.)

After that, there's a whole bunch of possibilities.

Right now, I can think of only one way, so far, to reconcile the DX:IW endings:

Before Helios is destroyed or self-destructs, he decides to take all the world's networks down or plants a virus. Either way, the world goes into a dark age, even worse than the collapse. This means of course that...

The omar take over!!!

After that, there's a whole bunch more possibilities...

Omar rebellion, AI singularity, aliens, pigs fly, etc.

gamer0004
20th May 2008, 08:18
Why would Helios self-destruct? I mean, he is the über-intelligent AI, right?

mad_red
20th May 2008, 18:21
Why would Helios self-destruct? I mean, he is the über-intelligent AI, right?

Like I said, the realization, as an A-super-I, that having such a thing as an A-super-I around is a Bad thing (note the cap B).

It's just an idea. I'm not going to even pretend I have any details. But if anyone in the world likes it and wants to do something with it, please tell that person about the idea. (No credit necessary ;) )

AaronJ
17th Jul 2008, 18:15
I like this thread more than all others.

I agree with the fetus comment, but I believe it is a fully artificial being and as JulianP said, that would make for an interesting protagonist.

robotwo
17th Jul 2008, 23:01
I agree that the game needs more Omar , they were the ideal in the other games , but they didn't get as much attention as the other organisations.

I would really like to see some chaos , with security and domestic bots going haiwire , computers getting self-aware , Omars taking over the streets and other nice things :3

Chemix
18th Jul 2008, 14:29
I once played around with a sequel storyline for DX: IW, called: Exodus from Eden. Basically after Helios takes over, people are placed into a dream like state, with their nanites harvesting resources from the areas around them to make food. The dream like state is the world that they believe that they live in, much like the matrix, but with less green tint and fewer government funded sinister purposes. This is done to effectively end war on Earth and allow our damage towards the environment to be repaired. Agents called Angels are allowed to disconnect from Dreamland (a project alluded to in DX 1 in a datapad in Area 51, which also revealed that the greys were bovine in origin, so they were genetically mutated cows) and enter the real world to prevent harm to the dreamers. Some people, particularly a new Illuminati, have learned to disconnect themselves without being "angels", so they can build while everyone is walking around like mindless drones. They intend to destroy Helios and shut down dreamland to restore the world to the way it was in the late 20th century, when they were at their apex. They believe that Morpheus (the AI predecessor to Dadelus) is onboard the station Ophelia and capable of restoring their power over information once the world is "free" of Helios. The other faction is the Broken, they are people who's nanites malfunctioned and were disconnected from dreamland, leaving them alone and afraid for years before they found each other. Some seek to exploit the dreamer's lack of awareness, while others seek to re-enter dreamland and a few wish to enter dreamland with a prophecy of Exodus from the bondage of dreamland to the real world which is so much more beautiful. Within the Angels organization is a group known as Tau, who believe in balance between the two world and secretly defy Helios authority while disconnected from dreamland. They attempt to make sure that both good and evil are present in the world and that neither destroys the other, lest they both die; after all, if you can't do evil, are you really doing good?

SubTonic20
18th Jul 2008, 15:10
IMO, if JC Denton is playable again, this game will already be showing signs of success. Playing as Alex was fun and all, but he lacked the badass nature that made JC so fun to play as.

In answer to the question...I think the game would be best off set in the timeline between the end of 1 and beginning of 2 (Best after the ending of DX1 where he blows up A-51) or (gulp) try to follow up the Denton ending of 2 and try to make up for the cheese.

gamer0004
18th Jul 2008, 16:03
Playing as Alex was fun and all, but he lacked the badass nature that made JC so fun to play as.


Hmm. Played the game like 6 or 7 times but I never found the fun part of playing as Alex...

CarloGervasi
18th Jul 2008, 16:37
I personally doubt that they'll be referencing Invisible War much at all in this game, and in fact it's probably taking place before it. None of the Invisible War endings are especially good for a new Deus Ex game, because they all necessitate that the game be removed from the "future, but still extremely familiar" setting that was such an integral part of the original's success. Even if they go with the Illuminati ending, which essentially maintains the status quo, you're still left with a world that is entirely unrecognizeable. No remaining real world governments, no (as far as we can tell) remaining real world religions, just a bunch of overly futuristic enclaves and cyborgs running around. They won't do that, I hope.

AaronJ
18th Jul 2008, 18:45
"You picked the wrong person to mug, punk" and "Well, you're the one who wanted to be such a badass" were Alex's only good lines.

CarloGervasi
18th Jul 2008, 19:05
You didn't like "bu-but, that's arson!"? :D

gamer0004
18th Jul 2008, 19:36
"You picked the wrong person to mug, punk" and "Well, you're the one who wanted to be such a badass" were Alex's only good lines.

Yes those were good. However, the voice acting was so incredibly bad especially on these lines. He said "You picked the wrong person to mug, punk" like any normal person would say "I'm going on a holiday".

Romeo
19th Jul 2008, 08:00
I'm going to restate an idea I had in a different thread...

The player could replay the final moments of Invisible War, picking the ending as they saw fit (this would also allow new players to understand the new beginning to the game). Based upon their choice, the opening situation will play out in four different ways:

Omar

The Omar are seen wiping out almost all of humanity (as in the ending we saw), although a small town is seen still standing. The Omar offensive falters and ultimately fails here, although the town use up most of their technology in the war effort.

Helios

Helios consumes the individuality of almost every civilisation, save for the small town, who save themselves by ridding themselves of their technology, and severing any link Helios could have adapted and used to get at them.

Denton

Denton sends humanity back into the technological stone age, as witnissed. With security systems rendered useless and medical facilities crippled enitrely, the toll on humanity begins to show. Most towns either die out from diseases, or from anarchy. The town mentioned continue to press forward, dispite now having almost no technology.

Cleansing

The church is seen cleansing the Omar, which is fine by most people's standards. However, after they begin cleansing more and more, based upon their morals, society begins to rebel. In a last ditch effort, they use an EMP bomb, decapitating all technologies. They wipe out most towns who are desperately trying to repair their machinary, but the small town instead focuses on defending themselves, and as a result, survive the onslaught. But the neglect to their machinary is irreversable, and so they rid themselves of the useless clutter.



All these endings would fit together in a logical fashion (with a few dialog tweaks to reflect the player's choice) and the protagonist would find themselves being born just after the events transpired. Twenty years pass, and as the main character begins to discover who they are, the town is just now rebuilding. I recognize that in Deus Ex people are used to travelling, and this idea seriously hampers it, but still, it does theoretically work as a sequel...

SemiAnonymous
19th Jul 2008, 08:32
Assuming it goes with the Helios ending, I can imagine 2 scenarios:

1: The game begins soon after Helios begins assimilation of humanity. Not everyone has merged yet, and several groups, including the Templars, are attempting to stop Helios. You assume control of a Denton clone, and you must stop the various factions. Along the way, you begin to learn the truth about Helios' plans (lets assume he never told you everything), and you need to choose between Templars, Helios, or going your own and letting humanity go its own way. Illuminati would be thrown in as well, somewhere. And for the fun of it, Omar act as a secret police for Helios.

2: Post Merge, just after the video of the Helios ending in IW. Something has gone wrong, and Helios is losing control. Humans are regaining consciousness and individuality, and are making their own sects, some of which revived old orders, the Templars and Illuminati and such. Pretty much the same as scenario 1 after that, you must choose to either return power to Helios, or defeat it, while choosing a side to lead to victory.

urban_queen41
19th Jul 2008, 09:22
Personally, I hope Eidos just forget IW ever existed and go back to the first game. (Sort of like how Capcom have banished Devil May Cry 2 from their minds, they actually pretend it never happened...)

I'm holding out for a prequel. There's a lot that can be done with Paul's story before the events of DX (which has, of course, already been discussed in other threads).

Either that, or go with the Illuminati ending- have everything go bat***** insane after JC hands the world over to Morgan Everett, and go from there.

jcp28
19th Jul 2008, 16:16
^

Here we go again.


Please keep in mind that no matter how much some of us hated IW, it is still part of the DX story. To twist around an example from another thread, it'd be like attributing IW to nothing but a dream. Listen, it might have been decente days of Wizard of Oz but these days, such an ending is so beyond lame and pathetic that I can't even begin to describe. If a game studio did anything like that, I would advocate their dissolution and erasure from memory for such a inane act. But maybe you already understand all that, right?

Then there's the whole idea of "Paul's story" While it could be fleshed out, we already know what he will do. So playing as him would really be a disappointment. They should go with someone else for a prequel, of which there probably won't be one.

Oym
19th Jul 2008, 21:08
People are blaming deus ex iw and they are right , but the thing I don't understand is why always , all the time , making a so huge thing out of it ..

You're right jcp , IW is a part of the dx series , so we might as well go fourth !

We know by heart what went wrong in dx2 , and if someone doesn't , it's so easy to find out .. Let's let the guys do their job , we'll see .

And for christ sake , invisible war was not an awesome game , no doubt about that , far to equal deus ex 1 if it is a second ! But it's still a good game , no more , no less ..

CarloGervasi
19th Jul 2008, 21:20
I can't for the life of me understand why people are still not getting that it's a prequel. It really has nothing to do with whether or not you think IW is/deserves to be a part of the Deus Ex mythos. A sequel comes prepackaged with at least 50% of Invisible War's problems right from the get go. Even ignoring all the hints dropped in the trailer's image flashes, they aren't going to do a sequel by virtue of that alone.

AaronJ
20th Jul 2008, 00:31
I can't for the life of me understand why people are still not getting that it's a prequel. It really has nothing to do with whether or not you think IW is/deserves to be a part of the Deus Ex mythos. A sequel comes prepackaged with at least 50% of Invisible War's problems right from the get go. Even ignoring all the hints dropped in the trailer's image flashes, they aren't going to do a sequel by virtue of that alone.

In all seriousness, I'm well aware of the chances that it's a prequel. My faith in Eidos Montreal is talking for me.

Chemix
20th Jul 2008, 02:12
What I don't get is that people assume that Helios would make the Earth into a hive mind.... at most it would be a mental network of individuals much like servers and computers attached to the internet.

SemiAnonymous
20th Jul 2008, 06:55
In all seriousness, I'm well aware of the chances that it's a prequel. My faith in Eidos Montreal is talking for me.

Same here. Doesn't mean its not fun to speculate about how a sequel could work.

Romeo
20th Jul 2008, 09:05
What I don't get is that people assume that Helios would make the Earth into a hive mind.... at most it would be a mental network of individuals much like servers and computers attached to the internet.

You know what they say: Power corrupts. Besides, when you view the ending the people appear to have no consciousness to themselves, that they are only fragments to something larger, not individuals. This lends itself to the theory that Helios made humans into organic machines. Personal opinion and speculation taint my research, however. =)

CarloGervasi
20th Jul 2008, 10:23
What I don't get is that people assume that Helios would make the Earth into a hive mind.... at most it would be a mental network of individuals much like servers and computers attached to the internet.

In the ending, he mentions how the barriers are all falling, and goes on to mention that "the last barrier is the self". There's no concept of individuality under Helios. That isn't what JC sold you in Antarctica, but that's how it worked in the end.

Chemix
20th Jul 2008, 17:23
I still don't think that all individuality was lost, though something wase, and as for power corrupts, it's an AI, it has no wants or needs except those programmed into it.

CarloGervasi
20th Jul 2008, 17:30
One of those needs being the need to observe, record, categorize, and censor any thoughts it didn't approve of. Helios wasn't an AI that was created "just because", it was there as a censure AI. Keep that in mind. It's biggest function was figuring out how to control everyone.

urban_queen41
21st Jul 2008, 04:34
^

Here we go again.


Please keep in mind that no matter how much some of us hated IW, it is still part of the DX story. To twist around an example from another thread, it'd be like attributing IW to nothing but a dream. Listen, it might have been decente days of Wizard of Oz but these days, such an ending is so beyond lame and pathetic that I can't even begin to describe. If a game studio did anything like that, I would advocate their dissolution and erasure from memory for such a inane act. But maybe you already understand all that, right?

Then there's the whole idea of "Paul's story" While it could be fleshed out, we already know what he will do. So playing as him would really be a disappointment. They should go with someone else for a prequel, of which there probably won't be one.


Eh, Ignore 90% of my previous post, what I really want to say is that too many people hated IW to make a game based off it's storyline.

Romeo
21st Jul 2008, 05:41
It's storyline is still implicated with the Deus Ex universe as a whole, however.

Chemix
21st Jul 2008, 09:29
One of those needs being the need to observe, record, categorize, and censor any thoughts it didn't approve of. Helios wasn't an AI that was created "just because", it was there as a censure AI. Keep that in mind. It's biggest function was figuring out how to control everyone.

Daedalus was created to "combat terrorist organizations through information monitoring," whereas Icarus was an information control and censorship program. Because they merged, it's unclear what directives took priority, thus we can't say for sure whether the AI was focused on such a tight level of control. Were it that focused, I don't know exactly why it would want JC except for inside information that wasn't on the net.

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 07:30
It's storyline is still implicated with the Deus Ex universe as a whole, however.

To the devs, not the fans, who will even claim DX:IW isn't even canon.

Go down that path of DX:IW content superceding DX content = prescription for a DX:IW disaster.

Fans disliked DX:IW for many reasons, but the general consensus at the time was the whole package was "off" (didn't help that JC wasn't the protagonist, either -- now make Tomb Raider without Laura and see how that fan base will revolt).

If DX3 is but dressed up DX:IW, I'll simply write off the franchise as dead. Because once the devs think XYZ is "the formula" the only "cure" is a meltdown to set them straight (and one is enough for a series).

Romeo
23rd Jul 2008, 07:36
No, I'm not saying we need to recreate IW and change the name and update the graphics. A plot should only be used once (I'm looking at you, Halo 2), but simply excluding plot is begging for disaster. Continue on from where IW left off, and worry about the gameplay. That should satisfy the gamers, and the plot chronology.

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 07:50
No, I'm not saying we need to recreate IW and change the name and update the graphics. A plot should only be used once (I'm looking at you, Halo 2), but simply excluding plot is begging for disaster. Continue on from where IW left off, and worry about the gameplay. That should satisfy the gamers, and the plot chronology.

No.

Scrap DX:IW as some nightmare. It was so off from the original it really doesn't need to be remembered.

Best bet for DX3 is right after the DX endings. From there we can learn the history of before, and of a possible future with a new beginning. It'll keep JC as a protagonist; keep the world as DX fans know it; with wiggle room for devs to add new content (places; weapons; vehicles; buildings, etc.).

Have to have some of the old with the new. EIDOS owes the DX fan base this after the DX:IW disaster.

Romeo
23rd Jul 2008, 07:53
To each their own, I suppose. Though I agree Invisible War did stray, I don't see it as a colossal failure, hell, I enjoyed it. But regardless, the story is there, whether or not you appreciated it. It just wouldn't make sense to randomly ignore that, not without an explanation.

DXeXodus
23rd Jul 2008, 08:01
If DX3 is but dressed up DX:IW, I'll simply write off the franchise as dead. Because once the devs think XYZ is "the formula" the only "cure" is a meltdown to set them straight (and one is enough for a series).

I for one really believe that DX3 won't simply be a dressed up IW. They really seem to be passionate about this game and they aren't faced with many of the same problems that IW's dev team faced.

I wouldn't exactly call DX2 a meltdown. It definitely had it's share of poor design decisions in the eyes of many fans, but it is still an enjoyable game nonetheless. As has been mentioned countless times, it is a good game, just not necessarily a good DX experience. That is why I think it would be better if they did not make it a sequel, but rather a prequel which eventually ran parallel to the story of the original game. That way, they do not need to try and 'fix' some of the 'problems' from IW, but rather draw inspiration from the original game and use its formula to create a truly masterful game.

Romeo
23rd Jul 2008, 08:02
You know what I just realized? There's no poll for the prequel/sequel/otherquel argument...

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 08:19
To each their own, I suppose. Though I agree Invisible War did stray, I don't see it as a colossal failure, hell, I enjoyed it. But regardless, the story is there, whether or not you appreciated it. It just wouldn't make sense to randomly ignore that, not without an explanation.

No explanation was given when DX:IW was released -- it was either take it or leave it.

Fans left it.

Which is why there's little interest of the franchise today. DX3 will be more than just a "proof of concept", it'll have to show it has the old DX charm and gameplay. Not a cheap DX:IW knockoff.

Romeo
23rd Jul 2008, 08:33
Truth be told, Deus Ex has never had a mammoth following, and I don't believe one bad game can make most of your fanbase up and leave. And besides, the game was not as good as the original, but it was still not as bad as certain people grate on it for.

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 08:41
Truth be told, Deus Ex has never had a mammoth following, and I don't believe one bad game can make most of your fanbase up and leave. And besides, the game was not as good as the original, but it was still not as bad as certain people grate on it for.

Editing my post to remove "crap" wasn't very nice, Romero (especially since it's not even a cuss word).

If this forum wants to be just a fanboi hype machine, just let us know. Otherwise, accept criticism when it's due -- and with DX:IW there's plenty, even from the devs themselves.

Want to edit these links out, too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTWvsGA77T4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o31W_E73_U

DX:IW was and will remain a failure. It was a failure from the get go, from pushing the design envelope so much it no longer was a part of the DX universe. It's why DX fans can and will claim DX:IW shouldn't be part of the canon.

And no amount of editing is going to remove that FACT.

Romeo
23rd Jul 2008, 08:43
Boy-o, I'm trying to help you out. If the others mods see you slamming the game, you may be suspended. I thought deleting the infraction of rule ten was rather polite, in my opinion.

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 08:46
Boy-o, I'm trying to help you out. If the others mods see you slamming the game, you may be suspended. I thought deleting the infraction of rule ten was rather polite, in my opinion.

Suspended? For stating the truth?

Has this franchise become this sensitive now?

Didn't help with DX:IW (even if they "lost" 100,000 posts from that time). The best medicine is to not repeat history (and not revisionist history even!).

Romeo
23rd Jul 2008, 08:51
It's not truth if it's based off your opinion. Personally, as I said, I never had too large a problem with Deus Ex. And there's a difference between criticism and excessive slamming. Simply calling a game crap, garbage and every other name in the book is rather immature when you can't take the time to establish your points, ESPECIALLY in a domain regarding opinion. I don't agree with other people opinion's of great games sometimes, but I don't take time on to sit there and harp on their beliefs, just as I wouldn't go to their forums and tear apart their hard work.

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 09:05
It's not truth if it's based off your opinion. Personally, as I said, I never had too large a problem with Deus Ex. And there's a difference between critisism and excessive slamming. Simply calling a game crap, garbage and every other name in the book is rather immature when you can't take the time to establish your points, ESPECIALLY in a domain regarding opinion. I don't agree with other people opinion's of great games sometimes, but I don't take time on to sit there and harp on their beliefs, just as I wouldn't go to their forums and tear apart their hard work.

What I posted isn't only my opinion, Romero. It's the consensus, top down.

DX:IW flopped for many reasons. Partly from the development; partly because no matter what the fans SCREAMED, Eidos didn't listen. They threw the thing at us, expected us to gobble it up. Fans didn't (and yes, DX had a larger following than it does now), and walked away.

It's v-e-r-y important that Eidos understands that DX3 has to live up to it's namesake. If the direction is for only new blood, then Eidos might as well make it another Project Snowblind (that failed miserbly, too).

A brand has a brand to live upto. Remember what happened with Coca-Cola in the mid 80s and their zest to compete with Pepsi? They changed the formula to taste more like Pepsi. Consumers revolted (one of the worst I've ever seen -- people buying cases of the stuff to stuck up on the old formula). It was so bad Coca-Cola eventually relented. Today we get something close to the "Real Thing".

It's a reminder with even games. Keep it true, fans are happy.

Romeo
23rd Jul 2008, 09:15
First things first, it's "Romeo", as in the Shakespearian loverboy in Romeo & Juliet, not Romero, who is the director of the Zombie franchise "Dawn of the Dead".

Secondly, I've seen quite a few here that don't mind Invisible War. Not saying that they or I consider it to be superior to the original, just, we don't view it as being crap, as you so wonderfully put it.

I'm sure they did lose fans, just as most franchises do in time. Splinter Cell, which is considered to be one of the better Stealth franchises has been losing fans continuously, despite the fact that many acknoledge their continual improvement of content.

Remember what happened when Ford released the new GT which was altered from it's orginal to compete with modern Ferrari's? Car fans went nuts over the thing and loved it.


But this all pales in comparison to something basic: IW was made. You may hate it, that is your right. Just as it is mine to enjoy it. But still, it was made. You simply can't forget that. The story simply can't be swept under the rug, even if that annoys you, it's a part of the Deus Ex universe now.

And if there's one thing I've learned from all the forums I've frequented: Fans are NEVER happy. There's always something to get mad about. Always.

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 09:26
First things first, it's "Romeo", as in the Shakespearian loverboy in Romeo & Juliet, not Romero, who is the director of the Zombie franchise "Dawn of the Dead".

Forgot the biggie...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Romero

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Have him in mind for some reason...Ion Storm+Daikatana+Infamous Ad=Failure.

Tight control of publicity doesn't translate to fans will like the game. And if fans don't like the game, there's no $$$$$$$$. Which isn't what the Eidos investors would like to hear.

Which reminds me, probably a good time to buy some stock!

Romeo
23rd Jul 2008, 09:28
You can never please them all, but I'm off for tonight. Have a good night yourself.

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 09:35
Before I forget...


Secondly, I've seen quite a few here that don't mind Invisible War.

Here.

Of about 10 Indians (and some of them aren't just Indians) and 6 Chiefs.

It no way reflects reality of how and why DX fans DON'T like DX:IW and treat it like damaged goods.

The point is: criticism will come of DX:IW. Get used to it.

Romeo
23rd Jul 2008, 14:51
Criticism will come, of course, that's the standard reaction of gamers. How can this game better? Let the world know how. But as I said, there is a difference between criticizing and simply taking out all your rage on a scapegoat. Another problem you seem to have is that you assume everyone here shares this feral rage in regards to IW, when most people don't really hate it that much. Not compared to Deus Ex, but just games in general, about half the community here doesn't mind (from what I've seen). In any case, this thread is way off-topic and needs to go back to what is was created for: Discussing ideas for a sequel.

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 15:09
Criticism will come, of course, that's the standard reaction of gamers. How can this game better? Let the world know how. But as I said, there is a difference between criticizing and simply taking out all your rage on a scapegoat. Another problem you seem to have is that you assume everyone here shares this feral rage in regards to IW, when most people don't really hate it that much. Not compared to Deus Ex, but just games in general, about half the community here doesn't mind (from what I've seen). In any case, this thread is way off-topic and needs to go back to what is was created for: Discussing ideas for a sequel.

First off: where you here in 2004? Did you see the DX:IW reaction personally?

I did.

That makes a w-o-r-l-d of difference.

The game simply stunk.

Furthermore, a lot of what is said here doesn't even pan out with what the devs were saying, even about consoles (I'll dig up a link of a dev conference transcript that went all out on the the console port issue, later). It's not "scapegoating", it's from their OWN MOUTHS.

DXeXodus
23rd Jul 2008, 15:21
First off: where you here in 2004? Did you see the DX:IW reaction personally?

I did.

That makes a w-o-r-l-d of difference.

The game simply stunk.
.

The initial outcry over DX2 was pretty much just the cries of a shocked community. Now, four years later, one should look at it from a balanced point of view and try to not be naive. We all know that Deus Ex 2 was not as good as Deus Ex 1. It does still, however, fit into the Deus Ex universe and is still a Deus Ex game.

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 16:06
It does still, however, fit into the Deus Ex universe and is still a Deus Ex game.

The initial cry was over how the game went from be playable to a hassle -- from the HUD to the l-o-n-g load times.

DX:IW needs to be considered a bad dream, and struck, much like Monolith is doing with the F.E.A.R. franchise with Project Origin. Wiping the expansions clean, and starting from the original.

Expansions tend to stray, and DX:IW did it royally (not because the crew couldn't stay within the DX universe, but because that "creativity" bug entered the equation [Specter went chasing ghosts again]. The same bug that gives gamers a pretty picture, and crappy gameplay, because "Ohhhh, that looks neat!").

jcp28
23rd Jul 2008, 16:38
Rebranding a franchise and making other entries are two entirely different things.
Even though Project: Origin may be F.E.A.R. with a different name, the fact that it has a different name is probably meant to reduce any stigma caused by the crappy F.E.A.R expansion. And DX is certainly not like that. The story of IW wasn't quite as bad as those other elements, even though it wasn't as immersive as the original.

On the other hand, this is kind of why I think the "3" is tentative for the real title which will hopefully, be announced soon. I don't know if it's a prequel, but this isn't the prequel thread, so I will not go there.

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 18:07
Rebranding a franchise and making other entries are two entirely different things.
Even though Project: Origin may be F.E.A.R. with a different name, the fact that it has a different name is probably meant to reduce any stigma caused by the crappy F.E.A.R expansion. And DX is certainly not like that. The story of IW wasn't quite as bad as those other elements, even though it wasn't as immersive as the original.

On the other hand, this is kind of why I think the "3" is tentative for the real title which will hopefully, be announced soon. I don't know if it's a prequel, but this isn't the prequel thread, so I will not go there.

Monolith wants to cash in since they still owe the IP rights, but the F.E.A.R. title is the property of Sierra/Universal/Vivendi. Project Origin will be F.E.A.R. right down to Alma, but they'll change some of the storyline (the expansions won't be canon for that franchise).

Now the same can be true with the Deus Ex franchise, returning to it's roots, and eliminating the canon errors of the expansion. HINT, HINT.

Devs have a lot of power to make or break a series. But the true test will be if they impliment DX:IW material how this generation will react to it, since the negativity for the game is quite high with the old.

Chemix
24th Jul 2008, 02:42
While there are monetary reasons for what Monolith has done with Project Origin, I think a large part of it is saving their reputation, which is attached to FEAR, one of their biggest hits. Seeing FEAR get milked with awful expansions probably and indeed has, degraded people's view of the franchise, and possibly Monolith by that, despite the fact that they had nothing to do with any project since the original.

The copyright issues is sort of like those with Firefly and Serenity; no side characters from the series could be used, though in this case it's that no main characters except for Alma can be used.

Alternative Ending
2nd Aug 2008, 18:47
We know of four possible endings of Deus Ex:IW... which one do you think could or should be the starting point for a possible sequel? (I personally do not like the idea of a prequel)

I think it was clever how they merged all three alternative endings in Deus Ex 1 for Invisible War.

JC merged with Helios, but it wasn't complete and that ended up bringing down the Aquinas network and causing global depression (which was Tracer Tong's ending) and then JC went on ice in Antarctica for 20 years allowing Nicolette and Chad to rebuild the Illuminati and take control of the world through the WTO and Order creating capitalist enclaves (which was the Iluminati ending).

I think they should do the same for the endings in Invisible War if Deus Ex 3 is a sequel. Merge them all together to please everyone who did the different ends. Or at least as much as possible.

For example, JC and Alex merged with Helios to create a biomodded human race with a perfect democracy, where the AI is able to accomodate the needs and wants of every individual because it is neutral and knows everyone's thoughts.

But although the Helios/Denton post-human race covers most of the world's population the Omar were immune because of their own collective mind and the closed enviro suits they wear (not allowing the nano particles in). The Omar live in the extreme conditions of Antarctica and other places in the world where their biomods allow them to survive. They continue to seek to assimilate people into the Omar way of thinking.

Meanwhile, the Iluminati and their economically controlled way of life has also survived - on the Moon. I distinctly remember reading or hearing in Invisible War that there was a lunar colony established. Obviously Helios/Denton's nano particles couldn't have travelled through space so everyone that was on the moon was unaffected and they are normal humans. They watch the Earth through the Ophelia spy network space platform in orbit above the planet and wait for the opportunity where they can regain control of the world, possibly by somehow taking control of the Helios AI.

Then finally, if JC was telling the truth every post-human should have retained their individuality even though they are all connected to Helios. But inevitably, if that's the case then you can't ever have a perfect system - chaos theory and all predicts otherwise. Some post-humans desires are just too conflicting with the collective and they get expelled to preserve the peace of the rest. They become the Neo Templars, who's new philosophy is to spread chaos and unbalance, as is the natural order of the universe versus Helios's control. (Actually, it's kind of like what the Oracle says in the Matrix Reloaded). So I guess they would be the ones classified as the terrorist element this time continuing the stuff that makes Deus Ex what it is.

The conclusion that the logical Helios AI comes up with is that it's the human part of the people that is the problem and so the solution is to transfer the human conciousness into the artificial and removing the chaotic human condition. First people were human. Then they became augmented cyborgs. The next logical step in Helios' view is for the human race to become completely artificial - androids. Robotic bodies with human conciousnesses, removing distinctions between people and making them all equal.

And so begins Deus Ex 3!

You could start off as a Denton clone salvaged by the Illuminati on the Moon, engineered to be immune to Helios nano control and made for the Illuminati's purposes. But then you get contacted by factions on Earth wanting you to side with them and the game starts. It would be cool to start the game on a moon base which you have to escape from and get to Earth. Meanwhile the Illuminati will be following your escape trying to convince you that Helios is bad and needs to be brought under their control etc.

Once you get to Earth you eventually discover Helios's plans - robot factories starting to manufacture enough bodies for everyone on the planet (hence explaining that concept art of the factory with mechanical limbs and the video trailer of the synthetic robot foetus). Then you realise that JC and Alex must have been consumed by the Helios AI and it's operating without their human compassion. So then you need to figure out a way to free them and de-merge them from the AI.

Let's just say more exciting stuff happens including encountering the Omar, (possibly a part Omar Leo Jankowski), some Templars who you have to side with to free the Dentons and eventually the game ends with several possible outcomes, one of which would be everyone's favourite and they get JC back to being the badass JC without AI induced megalomania.

I sure hope someone's reading this, because this is the game I want to play! :p

It will probably turn out to be a prequel though set in 2027 like people are saying, which would make Paul Denton about nine years old considering that JC was born in 2029 and Paul is supposedly 11 years older. So the game will probably follow the Denton's real parent - some badass part Mech part nano-augment - the first prototype to have nano stuff trialled. And they'll be battling Bob Page and all that and probably running into Tracer Tong and Gary Savage and Jock and General Sam Carter...

Then what I said will end up as Deux Ex 4 which then means that Deus Ex will be just like the formula of the Metal Gear Solid even more - Awesome first game, then a sequel which is contravertial because some like it and others were expecting something else, then a prequel game which restores everyone's interest, and then a kick-ass fourth game set just after Invisible War and to wrap everything up.

Jimmy Rabbitte
2nd Aug 2008, 19:21
Tight control of publicity doesn't translate to fans will like the game.

Yeah which is why not many people think Halo is a good game. Oh, wait..

You don't think a lot of good publicity makes people like a game? Halo is the epitome of mediocrity but look at all the fanboys that can't get enough of it. People are followers. "Bob" says: "Do you know how dumb the average person is? Well by definition half of 'em are even dumber than that."

I haven't really read this thread and I don't know what you all were arguing about but for some reason I saw this first and as a reason to post a reply :scratch:

iWait
3rd Aug 2008, 01:27
She said "Tight" control.. Tight meaning constricted, as in keeping it under wraps. She was referring to what is going on with DX3, not much publicity or released info. Halo went frikin' overboard with all the hype about Halo 3.

Jerion
3rd Aug 2008, 23:07
I suspect that Eidos shares a couple genes with Apple when it comes to keeping things quiet. The iPhone was in development for years and right up until the reveal at MacWorld 2007, nothing was leaked about it.

No, I take that back. At least Eidos gives you a title for what they're making. Apple won't even give you that much.

Bahmo
7th Aug 2008, 06:32
As to Helios being a manipulative tyrant, I am not sure that is so much the case as is that it is a cold entity from being inhuman. One has said that it was created in order to control humanity, but the question still remains exactly what a computer has to gain from controlling humanity. That isn't an issue so long as the computer is subserviant to its creator, who is the one who'd benefit, but because Helios didn't remain subserviant, assuming it could conspire against people on its on, yet still be bound by the restrictions that were programmed into it by people, is a bit of a loophole in judgement. Not to mention that a computer really can't lie.

I believe that Helios was probably telling the truth about its good motives. The failing of Helios is more that it would inevitably become an accidental tyrant, due to no real understanding of humanity, or perhaps, as in an Asimov story, understanding it in fact so well, that it feels contempt therefor. Recall that it stated its reason for assimilating JC was so that it could gain some insight into the human concept of ambition and want. So it did gain insight, but the problem with Helios that could still easily arise is that it would succeed too well in giving the people a perfect world.

Because humanity's desires are driven by imperfections and the need to always have a standard of judgement for what is good and bad, a collective society run by an all-seeing computer would work at first to create a genuine utopia far more effectively than the imperfect attempts by men like Stalin, or really, any man. However, it would only be a utopia so long as people have available the sight of what would not be one, and since Helios would likely abolish any such imperfections, that wouldn't be long. When everything is good, nothing is.

A computer is meticulous, immune to notions such as pleasure and pain, and objective. It could do a better job at solving such problems as war and poverty than man ever could. Yet the problem is that men ultimately don't want to abolish such problems; they would rather relish the perpetual struggle against them. With that said, it would be interesting to see a story in which not only some spared enclave of mankind, with all its humanizing flaws, declares war on Helios, but Helios, in fighting the offenders, evolves its own set of humanistic desires to combat various threats.

teknikal-vision
9th Aug 2008, 10:23
Ok, I'm sorry if this goes off topic, but I don't think this should be moved anywhere else, 'cause the reason I write what I'm about to write is because of the conversations going on throughout this thread.

So, prepare for a fire-fueled rant...




Go down that path of DX:IW content superceding DX content = prescription for a DX:IW disaster.

Fans disliked DX:IW for many reasons, but the general consensus at the time was the whole package was "off" (didn't help that JC wasn't the protagonist, either -- now make Tomb Raider without Laura and see how that fan base will revolt).

If DX3 is but dressed up DX:IW, I'll simply write off the franchise as dead. Because once the devs think XYZ is "the formula" the only "cure" is a meltdown to set them straight (and one is enough for a series).

Scadvid, I've been reading a lot of your posts in a lot of different threads and I'd like to applaud you for putting all my exact thoughts about Deus Ex -its past, present and future- down in words. Seriously, you've stolen the exact words out of my mouth. So I finally registered to contribute my opinion to your perspective.

I agree with Scadvid and I do not see what is wrong with scrapping Invisible War and leaving a clean slate open for another sequel to the first Deus Ex. I would love to see an alternate sequel to the original Deus Ex. After all, it is a game that encourages looking at a story from multiple views.

Movies and comics do this all the time; end a specific story arc, start a franchise anew or create a new perspective on a series by bringing the franchise back to its roots. Batman -as Scadvid has also alluded to in comparing the necessity of a strong ongoing lead character- has done just this. It has seen many incarnations in both comics and games. The films are of particular interest to me (ignoring the campy TV-spawned series). Tim Burton took Batman down an alley of surreal gothic dark cartoon-like splendour, which worked perfectly for the first two films. But after the third instalment of that story arc things started to falter, it lost its feet and it was decided to end it and kick Batman off the screen for a while.

Then along comes Christopher Nolan (visionary genius) who decides Batman needs to be resurrected on film once again, this time looking back to the roots of the best Batman in comics and emphasising it from an extremely realistic perspective and a very human, character-driven rather than effects/visuals/stunt-driven story (although Batman Begins and The Dark Knight had amazing action scenes!). Deciding Batman needed to start from a clean page again has undoubtedly been the best decision ever made for the series’ life on film. I haven’t met anyone who doesn’t like Nolan’s Batman films.

The point is, I don’t believe there is anything wrong with acknowledging mistakes of the Deus Ex series’ past and deciding that the best way for it to move forward is to leave the mistakes in the past in the spirit of emphasising what was done right in the past history of the series.

That is why I will be extremely happy if Deus Ex 3 is a prequel to the original. It allows the developers to disregard the events of Invisible War. The Invisible War plot is such a controversial area for discussion on here. I personally didn’t like it. Nor did I like the limited game play and level design and the dull/impersonal use of supporting characters –everything that Deus Ex had in spades.

It was hard for me to care about the story of Invisible War. It wasn’t what the basic plot was, but how it was executed as an experience. With Invisible War I didn’t connect with the supporting characters like I did in the first game. Deus Ex positioned you as having friends, colleagues, adversaries, rivals –heck even a brother- whom from the very beginning allowed you to identify with and develop a much more emotional connection to the story and world. Heck even locations were more emotionally significant. I loved continually returning to UNATCO knowing I had my own office, desk and PC; I had a significant and acknowledged place in the world. I loved visiting Paul’s apartment multiple times; a safe haven in the middle of turmoil it, a home away from home. The final scene in there with Paul and the UNATCO troops and MIB breaking in to kill him was such an amazing experience. You knew this was the last time you’d be seeing this place; the last time you had a home to go back to. No more welcoming office at UNATCO, no more borrowed-from-your-bro’s apartment. You were on the run. The stakes had raised ten fold. Wow. That was utterly brilliant. Film-quality storytelling.

Now Invisible War positioned you as the new guy; just a loner with no friends, relatives, enemies -nothing. You were always meeting new people who had no connection to you otherwise. I didn’t feel important to anyone –personally; I only felt like a person in the city being constantly hounded by annoying activist groups trying to pressure their ideals onto you. You probably know what that’s like. I always have a negative reaction to that kind of treatment, whether I agree with them or not. I do in real life and I did in-game. With Deus Ex you had the pressure of having to choose between trusting your well-respected employers or your own family member. Invisible War was like having a bunch of randoms trying to snatch up your influence only the grounds of ideals. No emotional, personal connection. Quite sterile.

Not even the revelation (saw it coming though) of you being the next of kin to Paul and JC struck an emotional chord in me (and I love the characters of JC and Paul dearly. Why? Well for one they weren’t portrayed or used in the game very well at all. (Paul was ok, but JC was utterly under-whelming) They kind of just slipped into the story near the end. It would have been more interesting having Paul at least more tightly woven into the cast from an earlier stage. Weren’t Paul and JC (along with Tong) supposed to be the dudes who founded ApostleCorp and the Tarsus Academy?

For example, it would have been nice to have known Paul from the beginning of the game, before the larger plot kicks in. They could have positioned him as mentor figure for Alex. I think the whole revelation of Alex being a Denton would have been a much more emotionally rewarding one if you had known at least one of them personally for a long time; sort of “the truth was right under my nose” type thing; that the bigger picture of your existence and theirs was right in front of you but they were very good and hiding it away from your eyes. It would also have meant rescuing Paul from the Templars would have been a much more rewarding experience. It also would have alluded very nicely to the original game; JC rescuing an injured/weak Paul, Alex rescuing an injured/weak Paul. One and the same.

Oh and about Paul being in a coma and JC being frozen. Why oh why would you want the most interesting and significant character pushed so easily out of the picture? A more interesting idea would be that Paul was injured in some way –not comatose –after Tong tested the universal biomod structure on Paul. It would have accounted for his capture too. Not easy for him to fight back being weaker than he used to be since his UNATCO and NSF days. I guess they could have kept JC as an iceblock waiting your help in reviving him. Because if Paul had felt more significant to you from the start of the game, then it would have felt a great deal more rewarding in successfully reviving JC.

Harvey Smith himself said about Invisible War (watch the Warren Spector Austin Uni lecture videos if you don’t believe me) was that the biggest mistake they made with characters in the story was that too many times you’d have a character walk onto the story scene out of nowhere, have their moment in the plot and then walk off and never see them again. He said they did this in Deus Ex, but it was worse in Invisible War.

Anyway, back to my hopes for the future of Deus Ex’s story legacy…

Everyone seems so afraid to challenge the normal standards of continuing a franchise in game series. At least the new Prince of Persia has decided to start a completely new story arc/version of the game in the spirit of the original. That’s a good sign of the future of game development. If something doesn’t work, try approaching it from a different view; start again even. For example I quite like it that the new Terminator film –Salvation- is taking the view of the terminator story away from the usual trends of the third film and the TV series (disliked them both) and pushing it towards the events of the future war.

So in taking lessons from other industries, I’d like the path of the story that follows on from the end of the original Deus Ex to be left open for now; perhaps one day someone will have the fortitude to make an ALTERNATE SEQUEL to the original Deus Ex. It doesn’t have to state itself as being the TRUE SEQUEL to the original; instead it should just be a WHAT IF? Another perspective.

I mean, isn’t Deus Ex at the end of the day just a really damn brilliant “choose your own adventure”?

As a game that encourages experimentation from the player, the developers should too be in the spirit of experimenting with the format of the series’ (hopefully) continuing instalments.

Oh and Scadvid; it is just like Batman eh? JC Denton is the core spirit of the original Deus Ex, just as Bruce Wayne is the spirit of The Dark Knight legacy. (And I’ll save the Christian Bale/Equilibrium/JC Denton comparisons for another day, LOL)

They really should do JC justice and have him as the lead character again. I mean, he is such a wonderful deep, intelligent and likable character. Why brush away such a masterpiece? I mean seriously, Could anyone imagine the next Christpopher Nolan Batman film kick Bale’s awesome Bruce/Batman down into the level of a lacklustre support character and have Commissioner Gordon’s son as the lead character of Robin?

HAH! NO!


Oh and there should be no reason for someone like Scadvid to be suspended based on the fact they have an opinion, be it a strong one or not. Why should those who liked Invisible War be given the right to strongly speak their love for it when those who disliked it are not?

teknikal-vision
9th Aug 2008, 10:54
Another problem you seem to have is that you assume everyone here shares this feral rage in regards to IW, when most people don't really hate it that much.

I'm one of those people who really doesn't like it.

I wouldn't call it feral rage, but more of a hugely disappointing let-down for appearing more like a fan-fiction sequel of a great game, rather than a true official installment. What made Deus Ex great wasn't even apparent in the sequel; and that is more than offering multiple choices in conversations and story paths.

It's about deep, memorable and engaging characters, immersive and grounded settings, expansive mutli-linear level design, inspired art direction, the dark, gritty and mature tone and mood, the story's quality and execution and how it made you feel and what you took away from it when you were done playing.

I didn't get any of that from Invisible War.

MattColes
9th Aug 2008, 11:31
I completely agree with scadvid and teknikal-vision's views.

Deus Ex 2 was a complete disaster, Harvey Smith and Warren Spector even agree. It's better to be left in the dust along with Snowblind, they made too many mistakes in the design of the second game from listening to other developer friends rather than the communities viewpoints on why the first game was soo great (you guys should watch Warren Spector's lecture videos).

teknikal-vision
9th Aug 2008, 11:35
I completely agree with scadvid and teknikal-vision's views.

Deus Ex 2 was a complete disaster, Harvey Smith and Warren Spector even agree.

See Romeo; there are people who agree that Invisible War utterly failed at living up to it's predecessor. That's a fact.

Romeo
10th Aug 2008, 00:18
Ah, but I never said everybody liked it either, now did I? I know some people really don't like it. They refuse to even accept it as a Deus Ex titled game, however, it was created. The story was created. It does exist and regardless of your opinion on the game, neglecting why it's part of the story is magically missing would still hamper the game. No, it was not as good as the original, I'm not debating that. But it's not such a horrible game, viewed on it's own, and the story (the only RELEVANT matter in this argument) wasn't that terrible either. Now, if we're talking about the story of DX:IW and it's relevance to the topic, that's one thing. If not, save yourself the time, and go the correct topic for such things.

jcp28
10th Aug 2008, 01:57
tekinikal vision: I don't want to chop up your long post, so I'll just address one discrepency I found

I agree with what was done right in DX. But what I don't agree with is your example of Batman. With a comic-book type franchise like Batman, you don't need contnuity. The character doesn't grow older, and he pretty much ends up fighting the same villains in different ways and in different mediums.

DX is a videogame, not a comicbook or animated TV show like the Simpsons. The world is constantly changing. And it's a one with some realism. So scrapping it would make no sense since videogames usually have some kind of constant story vein where things don't stay the same, while certain TV shows and comic books keep the characters at the same age no matter how ridiculous it looks.

And on the subject of JC being the protagonist, it would not be realistic as a sequel or a prequel. I'm pretty sure his time will have passed by the time the future comes

teknikal-vision
10th Aug 2008, 03:55
tekinikal vision: I don't want to chop up your long post, so I'll just address one discrepency I found

I agree with what was done right in DX. But what I don't agree with is your example of Batman. With a comic-book type franchise like Batman, you don't need contnuity. The character doesn't grow older, and he pretty much ends up fighting the same villains in different ways and in different mediums.

DX is a videogame, not a comicbook or animated TV show like the Simpsons. The world is constantly changing. And it's a one with some realism. So scrapping it would make no sense since videogames usually have some kind of constant story vein where things don't stay the same, while certain TV shows and comic books keep the characters at the same age no matter how ridiculous it looks.



Well, with regards to movies, comics and books; what I'm trying to say is that video games have yet to learn from these much more respected and far more well-defined and established forms of storytelling, and that it wouldn't hurt to take cues from their approach. Books, movies and comics have been around A LOT longer than games and have all learned from each other.

Games are still in the infancy as being respected as a very valid mode of literature and storytelling (and Deus Ex in my opinion is the best example of a literary game). The story of the game follows the most common effective form of plot structure and storytelling ever established in any medium; http://www.musik-therapie.at/PederHill/Structure&Plot.htm. Read through this and consider the events of the game and I'd be suprised if you didn't agree.

The industry has a lot of learning to do, and experimenting with approaches taken by other mediums would not hurt the industry at all. How else is it going to develop otherwise, unless it tries new things?

Also, I would like to see the continuity of Deus Ex be explored and played with a lot more than it is. An alternate sequel to the original would be wonderful and completely in the spirit of the games as these games are all about branching paths in story; the same basic story told, but seen from a completely different perspective. To keep the story on a single constant path, and only a single path is a bit predictable for most games. Instead of following the same road, why not take the exit on the left shoulder? You never know where you might end up. Might be somewhere really good.

And I never said anything about animated TV series or any TV series. Those aren't literature (usually), they're entertainment. Movies have to fit a quality story into an average period of 2hours. It's a much more artful craft. TV shows (like Lost) drag on a story for all it's worth just to pull out more ratings.

And sorry for the long post, I do enjoy discussions like this a bit too much sometimes. :)

teknikal-vision
10th Aug 2008, 04:14
Ah, but I never said everybody liked it either, now did I? I know some people really don't like it. They refuse to even accept it as a Deus Ex titled game, however, it was created. The story was created. It does exist and regardless of your opinion on the game, neglecting why it's part of the story is magically missing would still hamper the game. No, it was not as good as the original, I'm not debating that. But it's not such a horrible game, viewed on it's own, and the story (the only RELEVANT matter in this argument) wasn't that terrible either. Now, if we're talking about the story of DX:IW and it's relevance to the topic, that's one thing. If not, save yourself the time, and go the correct topic for such things.

Yes, i agree Invisible War is a lot better than the majority of games out there. But I still feel that even on it's own it's a pretty weak attempt at a great idea.

It's not so much the story as a whole being weak, but how that story was portrayed to you and what you experienced. On paper it sounds good, but it's in-game execution wasn't very impressive in my opinion.

That's why I'd like to see an alternate sequel one day in the future. It would not need to dismiss Invisible War as being canon or not. I mean, there isn't even a TRUE ending to either of the Deus Ex games. The true ending depends on the type of person the player is; the choices they make.

I didn't like the choice to mash up all the endings of the first game into one; it was an easy attempt at trying to please all. It showed a lack of faith in the original game's audience. I loved all the endings in Deus Ex, and I'm sure a lot of people on here would agree. If they had chosen even just 1 of the 3 people would have been satisfied. They individually propose some very fascinating ideas and are all viable examples of quality writing and ideas on behalf of the original developer team.

And again I'd restate my view that an alternate sequel to the first game would not harm the series at all. These games make you ask the question "WHAT IF?" all the time. Celebrating the consequences of choices.

You know it's quite hard to keep a conversation completely relevant when one thing almost always leads onto the other. I needed to make some examples.

I apologise if I appear to stray off topic, but I don't mean to.


Also, it's funny how a negative air seems to rise on here when everyone starts to talk seriously and put serious thought behind their words.

LOL. It's funny, why is that?

Tsumaru
10th Aug 2008, 04:22
I'm a little confused. A lot of the people who popped up and said "I DON'T LIKE IW EITHER!" have justified it with complaints about loading times, HUD, and gameplay features. Or at the least, execution of the plot. You're missing the point.

NONE OF THAT MATTERS TO THE STORYLINE

People like Romeo and myself are supporting storyline continuity for the sake of storyline continuity. It doesn't matter if IW was buggy, had long load times, a terrible HUD, poor augs, no skills, bad supporting characters or any of that crap. If you throw all that away and make the gameplay perfect; is there anything wrong with keeping the IW basic storyline?

To say IW failed and thus consequently to pretend the entire thing never happened is absurd. I can have no respect for a development team who does this. The only reason for ever pretending the story of a game never happened is if the story itself posed serious issues for continuity and was fundamentally flawed.

Furthermore, there is a conflict in the Batman post. Christopher Nolan's movies are independent. They are completely separate from any of the comics or movies or anything. They stand alone. This is NOT a valid example to give where you say "DX1 stands, IW disappears, DX3 continues from DX1" The Nolan films are remakes of an idea, and a remake right from the very start. DX3 is a SEQUEL.

On top of that, how can you talk about "experimenting" and "exploring" and all this crap... and then at the same time you say, "It has to be JC as the protagonist". What? It's all well and good to crap on like a literary genius and took about respected literary mediums, but at the end of the day nobody picks up a comic and says "This is a work of genius. Dostoevsky is nothing compared to Frank Miller." And what is this about TV series' being entertainment and not literature? Do you really think games are designed to tell a story before they are designed to be fun? I'm sorry, you criticise television for just "trying to pull the ratings" - but that's EXACTLY what game producers are trying to do as well. They're trying to make money, not make you think. You seem to have your mediums a little mixed up.

teknikal-vision
10th Aug 2008, 04:50
I'm a little confused. A lot of the people who popped up and said "I DON'T LIKE IW EITHER!" have justified it with complaints about loading times, HUD, and gameplay features. Or at the least, execution of the plot. You're missing the point.

NONE OF THAT MATTERS TO THE STORYLINE

To say IW failed and thus consequently to pretend the entire thing never happened is absurd.

Do you really think games are designed to tell a story before they are designed to be fun?

I NEVER said dissmiss Invisible War or pretend it never happend. I said I'd like to see an ALTERNATE SEQUEL that doesn't stand up and say "I'm the true canon of the series", but rather say "imagine if this happened instead?"

And I thought Deus Ex 3 is going to be a prequel. That seems to be what most people agree upon here.

If this is a thread that asks people what would they like for a SEQUEL, then why can't I give my opinion of what I'd like to see for a sequel?

And I never said all TV shows either.

Warren Spector made the original Deus Ex hoping to challenge the game industry. He has stated himself on the Austin Uni lecture videos it's never about the money for him first.

And that's what makes me sad. I'd like to see games viewed as more than just a way to waste time by having fun. They can be so much more than that. And this series always seems to have tried to have the guts to do that. Invisible War did try to do that, but constant nagging of publishers trying to refocus the game by nagging the developers with remarks like "just make it a shooter" really made it lose its feet.

Invisible War is not a total failure. For me it's just really disappointing 'cause its showing me that the industry is too afraid to let games mature into something greater.

I love the games that are pure escapism. They are important to the industry and I would hate to them disappear. But if a game is really fun and has a fantastic story at the same time, well that's just brilliant if it can do that.

But I also love games that say a bit more about the world and tell me a bit more about myself and try to have a voice that resonates beyond the time spent playing. And that's not just to do with story; this shows through the gameplay experience too. Don't you think it said something about yourself when you were the person who just didn't want to give into killing everything you see? That was an interesting experience for me.

Deus Ex had this voice. Invisible War's voice was sadly a little weaker, but it was still there.

king midas
10th Aug 2008, 04:52
i think the next tomb raider game should be online playable but eidos really should take there time on the online multiplayer mode as well as the campaign mode an the next tomb raider game should have more blood and gore than the previous tomb raiders but i have admit tomb raider 2 and tomb raider the last revalations is my favorite an eidos should make the next tomb raider game more like tomb raider 2 and tomb rader the last revalations

Tsumaru
10th Aug 2008, 05:31
And I thought Deus Ex 3 is going to be a prequel. That seems to be what most people agree upon here.
Three things...
1. I don't agree.
2. What people agree on means nothing. Their "evidence" is completely and utterly flawed and absurd. Most of them just agree that they think it would be a good thing. And I think that is also absurd. So, really, agreement means nothing.
3. The developers have made no comment, and therefore you thought wrong.


I NEVER said dissmiss Invisible War or pretend it never happend. I said I'd like to see an ALTERNATE SEQUEL that doesn't stand up and say "I'm the true canon of the series", but rather say "imagine if this happened instead?"
They amount to the same thing. Making an alternate sequel which has something else happen instead is pretending that Invisible War never happened.


If this is a thread that asks people what would they like for a SEQUEL, then why can't I give my opinion of what I'd like to see for a sequel?
Wait. So you can come here and start commenting about us who don't want an alternate sequel and do want storyline continuity, but we're not allowed to comment on you who wants the opposite? How dreary. You can say your opinion, but you should justify, and I can also respond.



And...

i think the next tomb raider game should be online playable but eidos really should take there time on the online multiplayer mode as well as the campaign mode an the next tomb raider game should have more blood and gore than the previous tomb raiders but i have admit tomb raider 2 and tomb raider the last revalations is my favorite an eidos should make the next tomb raider game more like tomb raider 2 and tomb rader the last revalations
Dude, you're in the wrong forum. This is for Deus Ex 3. Check out the main Eidos forums page:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/index.php
And go find one for Tomb Raider.

FACE EATER
10th Aug 2008, 05:46
wow, tsumaru is a jerk.

obviously a sequel to dx2 with its absolute endings (the human race functions as a single consciousness now because of jc's wisdom!) would be difficult to write, let alone write well, so a prequel seems the obvious thing to speculate. that or a sequel that takes the place of IW, which was a failure anyway.

though when it comes down to it, all i want to see is something that in no way resembles DX2. bigger, better maps(some of the maps from the first one were based on actual blueprints), better characters, better gameplay, better story, and something that is at least 24 hours in length. simple, right?

prequel or sequel, as long as its in no way similar to iw.

Romeo
10th Aug 2008, 06:43
Yeah buddy, we've been over this, WE KNOW YOU DON'T WANT IT TO BE LIKE INVISIBLE WAR. Honest to god... Can't we PLEASE get past that?

And Tsumaru, that was a touch abrasive, I think you should apologise. ;) Because as you yourself said: They haven't made an announcement, so while I hope it's a sequel, the possibility for a prequel exists.

Tsumaru
10th Aug 2008, 07:29
I never said it doesn't. All I have done in this thread is speculate on the ridiculousness of having a sequel which ignores IW.

That having been said however, following mere statistics, it makes more sense to assume a sequel (third in a series) is actually a sequel (follows the storyine of earlier games chronologically) as opposed to talking indefinitively or as if it is a prequel. No game discussion would go anywhere if we said "Halo 3? How do you know it's a sequel. IT MIGHT BE A PREQUEL!!!" to everything. So until I'm notified otherwise by the developers or am faced with compelling evidence, I continue to assume logically that it is most likely to be a sequel.


wow, tsumaru is a jerk.
If that's the worst you can say about me, you ain't seen nothin' yet baby.

urban_queen41
10th Aug 2008, 07:32
Okay, okay okay, I think we all understand the fact that the majority of the community didn't like or even hated IW (and I said the majority, not everyone, just a lot of people). If they base DX3 off IW I can't see it doing well thanks to this fact. Eidos would only annoy quite a few people off by doing this, and I doubt they want to alienate half the community from the series.

And Tsumaru, take it easy there. There's no need to take it so seriously- there's always room for change and improvment. You seem to be set on the fact that it will be a sequel starting off from IW's plot. As you have yourself said, the devs have said nothing and we don't know what they are planning. We need to be open to whatever Eidos are plotting for DX3.

It's perfectly feasible that Eidos might make an alternate sequel. Think about it- it would please a lot of fans who hated IW and would like to see a proper sequel and would pose no major problems for new gamers entering the franchise. Unfortunately the money is what matters for the devs and that is what they will consider when making it.

MattColes
10th Aug 2008, 10:21
hmm hope this is not dragging this topic too far but my hope for a sequel as you know is for a direct sequel to deus ex 1.

one of the reasons deus ex was originally was soo popular was because of it's multi-linear story and environments. There were three endings. The sequel decided rather than to pick one ending they should do all three so it would be good for continuity and keep players happy that chose each of the different endings.

now if there were a sequel to be made in the deus ex franchise (and this is what teknikal-vision was trying to say I think), that they go back to deus ex 1 and this time pick one of the three endings.

it supports the whole multi-linear storytelling that was prevalent through deus ex 1 and invisible war would still exist, it's just each sequel to the deus ex franchise would start at the end of deus ex 1 as a branching start for each new game.

I think this would fix the game for players disappointed in number two (myself included) and it wouldn't "pretend" invisible war ever happened cause it did.

MattColes
10th Aug 2008, 10:28
oh and this forum seems very emotionally wound up. what happened to accepting other peoples opinions and not getting so firey, dude, Tsumaru i think you should go chill, read people's posts properly before posting and apologize, you're shaming all the cool aussies on these forums.

i can see why warren spector said he thought it was amazing the time he was in a bar and two randoms were fighting over the politics of deus ex

Tsumaru
10th Aug 2008, 12:07
Cry me a river. You shame the human race by finding some way to bring race and nationality into this.

El_Bel
10th Aug 2008, 14:54
A sequel to IW would be terrible. Face it. I always had this feeling that deus ex was our world, just a little more dark. A sequel to IW would move so far to the future, that it is going to be pure imagination. No one can imagine what could happen 150 years from now. I would be so disappointed if it is a sequel to IW that i will not even play the game.

A sequel to DX could work a bit better, the collapse is an interesting time, and not so far fetched. It is not impossible to happen in our world, and someone can write about it. And i really don't care about continuity. IW story was good, but not perfect. If DX3 team has problems has to erase something or even all the story of IW to make DX3 better, so be it!! I don't care!!

Fen
10th Aug 2008, 15:34
Ok I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents.

A common complaint about IW was that it's story was set too far into the future and the game lost its groundings. Its not just one or two people saying this. Its a lot. So to go even further into the future wouldnt be the best way to go about making this game.

The developers are left with a prequel to DX1 or to follow on from one of the endings of DX1. Personally I think the sequel to DX1 where JC destroys the aquinus hub would be great. The world would be thrown into disarray. With world governments losing most of their power and global networks going down, the world would become a big free-for-all where its every man for himself. With the world governments losing their power, smaller but possibily even more dangerous coroporations and groups would be vying for power and control. And it would be MESSY.

Economies would be destroyed, and illegal trading and black market goods would be at an all time high. It would be a tough world, and perfect for a DX game if you ask me.

FACE EATER
10th Aug 2008, 23:36
Yeah buddy, we've been over this, WE KNOW YOU DON'T WANT IT TO BE LIKE INVISIBLE WAR. Honest to god... Can't we PLEASE get past that?

yeah we'll get past that when deus ex 3 comes out and isn't crap. until then, hear me roar. i, for one, am glad that thats a majority consensus.

and tsumaru is an abrasive individual.



If that's the worst you can say about me, you ain't seen nothin' yet baby.

i wasn't trying to offend you, i was just stating. angry angry angry. sheeeesh.

also i agree vehemently with both fen and el_bel, way to hit the nail on the head <333

Jerion
11th Aug 2008, 00:17
@ Tsumaru: do you think you could stop being an arrogant jackass for 5 seconds? Give it a rest already.

@ Fen: Good ideas. And yet, somehow, at the end of your scenario, I see the world being ruled by Canada and the Ukraine. :scratch:

Jimmy Rabbitte
11th Aug 2008, 00:32
i can see why warren spector said he thought it was amazing the time he was in a bar and two randoms were fighting over the politics of deus ex

Hah, that really happened? Cool :D

for the sake of staying on topic I think DX3 should actually be a sequel. I think the baby in the teaser is an Omar. The setting should be advanced stages of human enhancement, another compromise of the four endings of IW like how IW compromised the 3 endings in DX1. Neither faction is completely destroyed or reings supreme. The Omar are self-replicating at an exponential rate, Helios is struggling to convince doubters into entering his new society, the Illuminati go back to wringing their hands and stroking their moustaches in the darkness.. and the Templars are.. doing something. The atmosphere should be very post-cyberpunk, like GITS, only with its own originality, of course.

Bahmo
11th Aug 2008, 01:18
I'm a little confused. A lot of the people who popped up and said "I DON'T LIKE IW EITHER!" have justified it with complaints about loading times, HUD, and gameplay features. Or at the least, execution of the plot. You're missing the point.

NONE OF THAT MATTERS TO THE STORYLINE

People like Romeo and myself are supporting storyline continuity for the sake of storyline continuity. It doesn't matter if IW was buggy, had long load times, a terrible HUD, poor augs, no skills, bad supporting characters or any of that crap. If you throw all that away and make the gameplay perfect; is there anything wrong with keeping the IW basic storyline?

Frankly-stated, yes there is.

I understand the rationale for not playing as JC Denton again, because in two of the endings of the first game, he was essentially untouchable. Even in the Dark Age ending, where he didn't necessarily rule anything, he'd still be just about the ultimate human-being from his augs, without Simons or Page to challenge him. So there'd be little challenge.

That-said, when not only a few endings to the sequel, but in fact, the majority call on players to kill-off the revered hero of the first game, it's easy to see the sequel as an abomination of the franchise, even ignoring the gameplay inadequacies.
Even more-so when precisely the people who want him dead were also heroes in the original game. People have disagreements, I understand. To resolve to kill someone you disagree with is an extreme decision, and the first game never really required you to kill anybody but Page.

With IW, I wouldn't have minded (as much) if the murderous protagonists were just the Templars, OMAR, or even Everette brought back to head the Illuminati, since he always seemed like a jerk. Chad and Nicolette should have remained heroic. Part of me died from their portrayal in IW, especially Chad's referral to Paul as a "sworn-terrorist." If I recall correctly, so was he, and the fact that Chad was the one who asked you to murder his rival makes him one in the truest sense.

Let's also not forget that IW rubbed salt in the wound by resolving to be a very short game and leaving most of its replay value up to the multiple endings, which means players who objected to killing one of the greatest protagonists in gaming history (and there's likely a lot of us) basically got screwed..

On top of that, you've got the fact that IW really did very little that was new, but rather, revisited issues that should have been resolved in the first game. There's no reason JC shouldn't have completely merged with Helios at the end of the first game, yet they prolonged that plot-point for a whole other game.

Add to that, the lack of many favorite characters from the first game appearing at all. I liked Jock, Alex, Carter, and hell, even the Rentons and Vinny.

teknikal-vision
11th Aug 2008, 03:54
They amount to the same thing. Making an alternate sequel which has something else happen instead is pretending that Invisible War never happened.

Wait. So you can come here and start commenting about us who don't want an alternate sequel and do want storyline continuity, but we're not allowed to comment on you who wants the opposite?


How does the possibility of making an alternate sequel amount to the same thing as pretending Deus Ex 2 doesn't exist? you might as well say "because I pick the helios ending EVERYTIME I play Deus Ex, the other 2 endings don't exist."

And stop putting words in my mouth. I just want you to stop flaming me just because you completely disagree with my opinion. You can have your opinion. That's fine. Just chill out; I'm not asking you or anyone to succumb to my point of view, I'm just sharing it. And I'd rather people just simply say they disagree with me than try and tear me down like I'm committing a blasphemous act.

And what is with the personal attacks Tsumaru?

teknikal-vision
11th Aug 2008, 03:58
And Tsumaru, that was a touch abrasive, I think you should apologise. ;) Because as you yourself said: They haven't made an announcement, so while I hope it's a sequel, the possibility for a prequel exists.

Thanks for that Romeo. :D

It really freaks me out how people react so strongly to posts on here O_O

teknikal-vision
11th Aug 2008, 04:11
A sequel to IW would be terrible.

I always had this feeling that deus ex was our world, just a little more dark. A sequel to IW would move so far to the future, that it is going to be pure imagination.

I would be so disappointed if it is a sequel to IW that i will not even play the game.

A sequel to DX could work a bit better, the collapse is an interesting time, and not so far fetched. It is not impossible to happen in our world, and someone can write about it. And i really don't care about continuity. IW story was good, but not perfect. If DX3 team has problems has to erase something or even all the story of IW to make DX3 better, so be it!! I don't care!!

Yes that is exactly my feeling. Going down the path laid by Invisible War wouldn't be good at all.

Invisible War took us far enough away from the grounded reality that made Deus Ex great. Being set in a world so close to current reality made the whole story very easy to believe and much easier to get lost in the fantasy of it all.

So a sequel to IW can only mean more bad things. I don't want another semi-StarTrek experience.

And continuity doesn't matter to me either; I just want a story worthy of the original. Perfect gameplay wont save Deus Ex 3 for me if the story doesn't draw me in; these are RPGs after all. How can I truly roleplay if the outcome of the story doesn't matter to me? I want another Deus Ex that is so convincing it really makes me stop and consider questions of philosophy, politics, morals, ethics, society and individuality.

DXeXodus
11th Aug 2008, 05:18
It really freaks me out how people react so strongly to posts on here O_O

We have our share of abrasive people on this forum. Try to ignore them, they thrive on conflict. As for the rest of us, our passion is all things Deus Ex, and talking about it in a mature manner.

jcp28
11th Aug 2008, 15:36
Ah, crap, looks like I missed most of the drama!:D

Anyways, I really, really, don't think an alternate sequel is usually the kind of thing that's done with a videogame franchise.

Though I understand it's one of those hardcore fanboy things, I wish at least some of you would give it a rest and realize IW is canon, even if the story kind of failed to deliver. Alternate sequels in video games just don't get made for various reasons

And though I've learned more tact over the years as my own response kind of says, I sometimes have to go "God, this isn't Wizard of Oz where dorothy realizes everything was a flippin' dream". But at least you seem to realize the whole canon thing makes it hard to make a sequel.
I don't really agree with the way Tsumaru twisted teknikal vision's idea of the alternate sequel, since TV didn't try to limit discussin. Even if an alternate sequel and the denial of canon don't amount to the same thing, Deus Ex is not some multimillion dollar franchise where people are going to take the chance of alternate sequels. Eidos will either continue the story from IW or make a prequel.

K^2
11th Aug 2008, 18:01
The initial outcry over DX2 was pretty much just the cries of a shocked community. Now, four years later, one should look at it from a balanced point of view and try to not be naive. We all know that Deus Ex 2 was not as good as Deus Ex 1. It does still, however, fit into the Deus Ex universe and is still a Deus Ex game.
DeusEx was a cult game.
DeusEx IW was expected to be a cult game. It turned out to be merely ok.

Fans would have been fine with "not as good", but they expected it to be better at least in some ways, and to have the same depth. It didn't. And it doesn't matter that despite all that IW was still better than most games released that year. It flopped as a sequel and it disappointed a bunch of people.

I have no problem with story of IW being kept as canon. But Eidos needs to take a very careful look at what they took out of DX when they made IW, and not make the same mistakes again. Community isn't going to survive another IW.

A few examples.

Story. It needs to be written not for the game, but by itself. There needs to be a lot more material than what the game needs. There should be things that are not said or written anywhere, but that are part of the world. Player might not even be aware of these things, but if developers have in mind a bigger story, it goes into everything they do, from art, to intonations, to level design. Player feels that.

Inventory. DX had it right. No need to mess with it. Same for ammo system. If it's past IW, figure out a story way out of universal ammo, same way you twisted it into the game. This game is supposed to make you use resources wisely. That includes balancing different ammo types and limited inventory.

Balancing. Simply spend more time on it. Especially with all the augmentations. If the game becomes too easy after acquisition of certain items, tweak it. Either add more obstacles or cut down on ammo, cells, and med packs.

Finally, keep in mind that it isn't 2004 anymore. Things happened since then. A keypad here and there isn't going to cut it anymore. Look at the way Doom3 implemented interactive displays of all kinds. A system like that will fit perfectly within DX world. Yes, I know, that's extra scripting and debugging. Get over it. Games like GTA IV and Burnout: Paradise have also set a new plank for large, seamless worlds. When IW came out, people merely complained that they could take another coffee break while a new level loads after 15 seconds of gameplay. These days, you can get skinned alive for a trick like that.

Lo Bruto
11th Aug 2008, 22:47
Like what Harvey Smith said in the 'Post-mortem' video, one of the major complaints about DX:IW was that it was far further into the future.
Too much Neon.

The big deal in the original DX is that it's closer to the real world in terms of Politcs and a plethora of other things. Even the conspirations theories are "real".
What we got in IW? Two Coffee brands that were owned by a single corporation. Wow. :mad2:
Frankly, a DX game where the protagonist is a Omar will turn it into a Fallout FPS.

I'm pretty sure that the game is a Prequel. But this topic is about a Sequel, so I won't say a thing. :rolleyes:

drummindog
11th Aug 2008, 23:15
First things first, it's "Romeo", as in the Shakespearian loverboy in Romeo & Juliet, not Romero, who is the director of the Zombie franchise "Dawn of the Dead".

Secondly, I've seen quite a few here that don't mind Invisible War. Not saying that they or I consider it to be superior to the original, just, we don't view it as being crap, as you so wonderfully put it.

I'm sure they did lose fans, just as most franchises do in time. Splinter Cell, which is considered to be one of the better Stealth franchises has been losing fans continuously, despite the fact that many acknoledge their continual improvement of content.

Remember what happened when Ford released the new GT which was altered from it's orginal to compete with modern Ferrari's? Car fans went nuts over the thing and loved it.


But this all pales in comparison to something basic: IW was made. You may hate it, that is your right. Just as it is mine to enjoy it. But still, it was made. You simply can't forget that. The story simply can't be swept under the rug, even if that annoys you, it's a part of the Deus Ex universe now.

And if there's one thing I've learned from all the forums I've frequented: Fans are NEVER happy. There's always something to get mad about. Always.

I think you are right. People are fickle, thus you will always have someone unhappy. But also know that you cannot please everyone, so trying is futile.

People, I think that the good people at Eidos deserve a certain level of respect. They are the gate keeper for this game and the franchise for that matter. If they perceive too much negativity coming from the fans, it would be so easy to put the money and the resources elsewhere. I mean, would you throw millions of dollars on something that the fans griped and complained about? The only reason you would would be if you knew you could do it better than the last in sales and earn a return on the investment and the demand was there.

They aren't doing this for our individual happiness or approval. I think it is fine to suggest and talk about ideas, but these boards like this get out of hand with people demanding this and that or demeaning others. It's a game people, not Lord of the Flies.

Romeo
12th Aug 2008, 06:52
Precisely. A few well-thought of complaints here and there are necessary, to improve the next overall experince, just as positives must be highlighted so that they may be preserved. But my time at the Forza forums educated on what it truly means to have an ungrateful community, or one that is impossible to please. For the ungrateful part: Turn 10 (the designers) answered the communities wishes and managed to bribe Peugot into allowing the option to paint over one of their Prototype racecars (normally, this can't be done, due to sponsership logos and whatnot). When they did it, the community simply questioned why there was only one car it could be done to, and then proceded to whine that car "x" didn't have that option. That must really depress the designers. Secondly, after the hardcore community whined constantly about the fact that Point to Point races existed, the devellopers eliminated them for the sequel. Following that, the community went into a frenzy as some favored P2P races over standard circuit races. This was one of the best example of whining being properly punished that I have ever seen. Coincidentally, since then, the Turn 10 community keeps it's whining minimal and applicable. =)

drummindog
12th Aug 2008, 16:02
I am sure the designers are sick of the IW complaints. How many times can one be beat over the head for something? Suggestions seem welcome, but I think ungrateful complaints always fall on deaf ears. I know they have heard the community and should be creating an awesome experience for us all, so why not give them the credit and respect they deserve and let's let them work their magic.

If you are still skeptical when it first comes out, why not educate yourself with many, many reviews and screenshots before buying??? It seems silly to outright buy something these days without doing a little research on it, doesn't it?? But please don't buy it sight unseen and pick it apart because of one or two things you don't like and make the forums here rediculous.

FACE EATER
13th Aug 2008, 05:27
ungrateful community? we're supposed to be grateful for Invisible War? jeez.


I am sure the designers are sick of the IW complaints. How many times can one be beat over the head for something? Suggestions seem welcome, but I think ungrateful complaints always fall on deaf ears. I know they have heard the community and should be creating an awesome experience for us all, so why not give them the credit and respect they deserve and let's let them work their magic.

If you are still skeptical when it first comes out, why not educate yourself with many, many reviews and screenshots before buying??? It seems silly to outright buy something these days without doing a little research on it, doesn't it?? But please don't buy it sight unseen and pick it apart because of one or two things you don't like and make the forums here rediculous.


you know, i really think there are too many people here with bad taste (not in particular you, drummindog, you've said some stuff i agreed with, but plenty of others) trying to excuse the travesty that was DX:IW. how many times can one be beat over the head for something, you ask? i say until they get it right or credits are all changed to read "alan smithee". its the kind of criticism against IW that will help it not happen again. i mean, yeah, maybe we should be more gracious about it, but this is a forum, we're allowed to vent some steam. and since theres a lot of us that loathed IW, a lot of steam can be expected. if the developers are getting bothered by that, they should have been more prepared. its quite a clean up job they have to do after IW. and at that, how do you know any of the developers will take it personally? how many of them worked on IW? we're just throwing up red flags on what to avoid.

you seem to think any part of our concern is saving money on buying a bad game, but i think the vast majority would rather be good. and more like the first. to just keep quiet regarding something we're passionate about and have the same mistakes made over again would be rediculous[sic]. every year there seem to be less and less good games coming out, and deus ex is a rare enough title that we can fervently criticize in hopes that we'll be heard. i think a lot of us would like to see it restored to its original glory rather than continue to accept the ever decreasing amounts of actual decent titles out there.

only time will tell i guess, but i say let there be IW bashing.

DXeXodus
13th Aug 2008, 05:35
Invisible has been bashed on this forum to such an extent that it is now lying in a little puddle in the corner, whimpering as scornful onlookers throw tomatoes at it. The point is that it is not as bad a game as people make it out to be. It did not live up to it's predecessor in the way which we all had hoped, but it was a solid game nonetheless. It has been about four years (please correct me on this) since it's release, so it's about time to get over it and lift your eyes to the upcoming sequel [oops, or prequel :D] with the knowledge that it is going to be great. :cool:

K^2
13th Aug 2008, 05:49
You can't call IW a solid game. Yeah, it wasn't as bad as you'd think from some comments on it, but a lot of what is said about it are fair complaints.

Invisible War was a resource hog from unoptimized engine to poor disk space usage. It had ridiculous loading times associated with the above problem. It had extremely poor physics. These are not signs of a solid game.

IW suffered mostly from not being up to standard set by original, but it has had a ton of problems of its own as well. These should not be forgotten when DX3 is made.

DXeXodus
13th Aug 2008, 05:58
You can't call IW a solid game. Yeah, it wasn't as bad as you'd think from some comments on it, but a lot of what is said about it are fair complaints.

Invisible War was a resource hog from unoptimized engine to poor disk space usage. It had ridiculous loading times associated with the above problem. It had extremely poor physics. These are not signs of a solid game.

IW suffered mostly from not being up to standard set by original, but it has had a ton of problems of its own as well. These should not be forgotten when DX3 is made.

Acknowledged. But by the standards of many other games, it was a good game. I play IW now on my mid-range PC and I have 5-10 second load times, stable performance and very few bugs. It is far from perfect, but has many elements that contribute it being worthy of being called solid. That is just my opinion of course. People feel very strongly about this subject and opinions differ vastly on it.

gamer0004
13th Aug 2008, 06:29
It had extremely poor physics.

I really liked this:
"the physics are pretty solid and can be used in some interesting ways. I once crouched behind a barrel to try to get past a turret mounted in the ceiling. Once the turret saw me, it started firing and the barrel went spin up in the air, leaving me totally exposed. Not only is that good physics, that's good gameplay"
http://pc.ign.com/articles/442/442591p2.html
First of all, there's a lot you can say about the physics in IW, but they were not "solid".
Secondly, a turret that makes a barrel spinning up in the air, a barrel so HEAVY you can't even lift it without biomods?
Not only is that poor physics, that's poor gameplay; as it is unrealistic (which breaks the immersion) and not much fun because there's often nowhere to take cover.

DXeXodus
13th Aug 2008, 06:39
I agree that the physics were terrible. DX2 was released at about the climax of peoples excitement over physics. If something moved in a game because you touched it people almost wet themselves. I think Eidos tried to capitalize on this, but in doing so went overboard.

drummindog
13th Aug 2008, 19:16
ungrateful community? we're supposed to be grateful for Invisible War? jeez.




you know, i really think there are too many people here with bad taste (not in particular you, drummindog, you've said some stuff i agreed with, but plenty of others) trying to excuse the travesty that was DX:IW. how many times can one be beat over the head for something, you ask? i say until they get it right or credits are all changed to read "alan smithee". its the kind of criticism against IW that will help it not happen again. i mean, yeah, maybe we should be more gracious about it, but this is a forum, we're allowed to vent some steam. and since theres a lot of us that loathed IW, a lot of steam can be expected. if the developers are getting bothered by that, they should have been more prepared. its quite a clean up job they have to do after IW. and at that, how do you know any of the developers will take it personally? how many of them worked on IW? we're just throwing up red flags on what to avoid.

you seem to think any part of our concern is saving money on buying a bad game, but i think the vast majority would rather be good. and more like the first. to just keep quiet regarding something we're passionate about and have the same mistakes made over again would be rediculous[sic]. every year there seem to be less and less good games coming out, and deus ex is a rare enough title that we can fervently criticize in hopes that we'll be heard. i think a lot of us would like to see it restored to its original glory rather than continue to accept the ever decreasing amounts of actual decent titles out there.

only time will tell i guess, but i say let there be IW bashing.

I acknowledge your right to express your opinion on this. I differ just a tad, but I am not criticizing you or anyone directly when I say this:

I think the thing I am concerned about most at this point is the community bashing good people who made an honest mistake or something with 1 game out of 2. I could see such harshness from people if Eidos said they would fix problems and released 4-5 really bad Deus Ex console ports for PC that were full of said problems. They really have only had two tries at this series so far. I didn't particularly care for IW, but am optimistic for the future of the game series. Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I think what people tend to forget is the huge shakeup that happened with ION Storm and I think this helped to contribute to IW's problems.

I understand the gaming community is passionate about where the next one is going. I am too. But I think there are better ways to help ensure this is the game you want, rather than ragging on the past.

I figure they have heard all the constructive feedback by now, being that it has been 4 years since IW was released or so. All the destructive criticism of the game seems to still be happening on occasion. I think those kind of destructive criticisms tend to put the gamers in a bad light. I just joined the other day and cannot believe some of the stuff that has been said to the very people who hold the future of this franchise in the palm of their hand. I really don't want them to pull the plug on it because they think that the whole gaming community is against them or whatever.

I think the long and short of it all is: Let's look to the future now that the past has adequately been discussed.

Romeo
13th Aug 2008, 19:23
Alright, it's time to get back on topic here. If we can't do that, it may be more sensible to close the thread, which would be a shame, as it's one of the better ones here. :rolleyes:

Vadim Verenich
13th Aug 2008, 19:27
I agree that the physics were terrible. DX2 was released at about the climax of peoples excitement over physics. If something moved in a game because you touched it people almost wet themselves. I think Eidos tried to capitalize on this, but in doing so went overboard.

Using Havoc engine wasn't a good option, but i am not the one to blame Eidos' managerial strategy.The management of game industry sector is eventually becoming over-complicated with its major focuses on market capitalization and profit maximization.

BACK TO TOPIC, LAST WARNING. If you wish to discuss IW's quality, go to the appropriate thread.

Bloodwolf806
15th Aug 2008, 19:18
I could see Deus Ex 3 fusing the IW endings into one like the original Deus Ex did in IW.

Romeo
15th Aug 2008, 20:17
That was an option I considered myself... I posted my idea somehwhere in here... Somewhere...

drummindog
16th Aug 2008, 02:52
I'm thinking about socio-political themes we hear about every day in the news....maybe a product of the USA becoming socialist and dependent on the government for everything. Of course, there is the current terrorism problem and etc. It, of course, would be taking place around whatever the appropriate Deus EX timeline would be along with all the factions and plot twists we have grown to love. Like I said, the news is full of things that we could really think about and plot out game type situations and plots.

Romeo
16th Aug 2008, 03:09
*Cough RUSSIA/GEORGIA CONFLICT cough cough*

Aw man, I have a serious cold.

K^2
16th Aug 2008, 06:52
I'm thinking about socio-political themes we hear about every day in the news....maybe a product of the USA becoming socialist and dependent on the government for everything. Of course, there is the current terrorism problem and etc. It, of course, would be taking place around whatever the appropriate Deus EX timeline would be along with all the factions and plot twists we have grown to love. Like I said, the news is full of things that we could really think about and plot out game type situations and plots.
I don't know, it might be a bit sensitive, still, but DX has always been centered around idea of "What if all these conspiracy nuts are actually right?" But it's not about conspiracy theories we have now, but rather somewhat of a take on them. Remember how they allude to Mars landing being faked? So would it be way too soon to do a take on 9/11 conspiracies? Have a big terrorist attack, and have the character uncover, through various sources, that the very structure maintaining the order is responsible for the attack.

Too controversial? Too soon? Or is that the kind of thing that DX3 should work with?

El_Bel
16th Aug 2008, 10:33
*Cough RUSSIA/GEORGIA CONFLICT cough cough*

Aw man, I have a serious cold.

This conflict made me realize how much the media is influenced by government. In the USA they say Russia is the devil, they started it all and they kill everyone on sight. In greece, where the current regime is kind of pro-Russia, all media says that Russia had every right to protect its citizens, they didnt invade Georgia just Osetia, and they help the situation.

gamer0004
16th Aug 2008, 10:34
I don't know, it might be a bit sensitive, still, but DX has always been centered around idea of "What if all these conspiracy nuts are actually right?" But it's not about conspiracy theories we have now, but rather somewhat of a take on them. Remember how they allude to Mars landing being faked? So would it be way too soon to do a take on 9/11 conspiracies? Have a big terrorist attack, and have the character uncover, through various sources, that the very structure maintaining the order is responsible for the attack.

Too controversial? Too soon? Or is that the kind of thing that DX3 should work with?

It's not too controversial, nor too soon, I don't want it because it's plain bull**** and doesn't make any sense.

Overtime
16th Aug 2008, 14:40
So would it be way too soon to do a take on 9/11 conspiracies? Have a big terrorist attack, and have the character uncover, through various sources, that the very structure maintaining the order is responsible for the attack.

Too controversial? Too soon? Or is that the kind of thing that DX3 should work with?

In a sense that was already done in the first Deus Ex. You could say the terrorist attack was the plague and
VersaLife/UNATCO/Government/corporations in general were the structure maintaining the status quo.

But i know what you mean. Personally, I would only like a 9/11 type plot in the most general sense as you described, but it would have to be written in such a way that the player doesn't know who's motives to trust until quite late in the game. Drawing any more comparisons to 9/11 would be an unnecessary distraction and a turn off.

jcp28
16th Aug 2008, 20:03
It's not too controversial, nor too soon, I don't want it because it's plain bull**** and doesn't make any sense.

Agree. Eidos Montreal would be giving in to the nutjobs if they allowed such a fabrication of history to be displayed in the game. It was Islamic fundies. Anybody who doesn't believe should spend more time trying to prove alienn sighting or something. But that might be a bad idea, since these tinfoil people would take away credence from their cause.



El BelThis conflict made me realize how much the media is influenced by government. In the USA they say Russia is the devil, they started it all and they kill everyone on sight. In greece, where the current regime is kind of pro-Russia, all media says that Russia had every right to protect its citizens, they didnt invade Georgia just Osetia, and they help the situation.

That sort of press coverage really annoys me. It overlooks the fact that there are 2 sides to every conflict. And that's all I'll say. The thread could be derailed too easily if we get into views on foreign policy and the like.(since I'm sure there's lots of Russia haters here.)

drummindog
17th Aug 2008, 19:01
*Cough RUSSIA/GEORGIA CONFLICT cough cough*

Aw man, I have a serious cold.

You better get that cough checked out. :lmao:

K^2
17th Aug 2008, 21:28
It's not too controversial, nor too soon, I don't want it because it's plain bull**** and doesn't make any sense.
Who cares if its bull****? A lot of people believe that. There is no question that something is kept secret by the government, and nobody really knows for what reason. It might be a very good one, I'm sure.

But again, that's not the point. The point is that such a conspiracy theory exists. The odds of the Moon Landing being faked are even less than 9/11 being inside job. Yet, DX uses that quite fine. They aren't talking about the Moon, of course. They are talking about Mars, and how the landing on that planet was fake.

Similar thing can be done with 9/11. A terror attack on own people is nothing new, historically. It has been done as a tactic to keep population under control a number of times. Such a plot would be entirely realistic within the game, regardless of what actually happened on 9/11.

Personally, I would only like a 9/11 type plot in the most general sense as you described, but it would have to be written in such a way that the player doesn't know who's motives to trust until quite late in the game. Drawing any more comparisons to 9/11 would be an unnecessary distraction and a turn off.
Precisely. No direct allusion to 9/11 should be made, but a person familiar with 9/11 conspiracy theories should recognize the plot, again, in general sense, once everything becomes evident.

So maybe something along the lines of a particular city enclave requiring rather strict security checks following a major act of terror in that region. Some rather aggressive opposition faction is blamed. But later, it becomes evident that the force keeping order in the city actually orchestrated the whole thing specifically to be able to introduce new security measures, which they needed, perhaps, to be able to keep the less aggressive, but more popular opposition groups down.

This doesn't echo the 9/11 itself, but rather conspiracy theories surrounding it. Which is exactly what DX has been doing all along.

Overtime
17th Aug 2008, 22:13
Precisely. No direct allusion to 9/11 should be made, but a person familiar with 9/11 conspiracy theories should recognize the plot, again, in general sense, once everything becomes evident.

This doesn't echo the 9/11 itself, but rather conspiracy theories surrounding it. Which is exactly what DX has been doing all along.

Yep, this was the strength of DX. They took existing conspiracy theories and created their own around them alluding to many of the real conspiracy theories today. eg Moon/Mars landing, Illuminate/invisible hand taking over the world/Knights Templars/ FEMA/aliens/.... everything!

Your right, DX is precisely that. What made it such a great game was the parallels you could draw with the real world. It was futuristic, but very recognisable.

haha...didnt really realise this until now!

I guess the problem with DX2 was that it was too futuristic and far removed.
If they did DX3 after the events of DX2 it could make the problem worse...
Ive read in some threads that DX2 should be discarded altogether...not because it was a bad game, but because it alienated us from the DX world.
To be honest, i would agree with such a move.

There are lots of conspiracy theories that the devs could research and then twist into their own story...
(admittedly, easier said than done)

gamer0004
18th Aug 2008, 05:05
Who cares if its bull****? A lot of people believe that. There is no question that something is kept secret by the government, and nobody really knows for what reason. It might be a very good one, I'm sure.

But again, that's not the point. The point is that such a conspiracy theory exists. The odds of the Moon Landing being faked are even less than 9/11 being inside job. Yet, DX uses that quite fine. They aren't talking about the Moon, of course. They are talking about Mars, and how the landing on that planet was fake.

Similar thing can be done with 9/11. A terror attack on own people is nothing new, historically. It has been done as a tactic to keep population under control a number of times. Such a plot would be entirely realistic within the game, regardless of what actually happened on 9/11.

Precisely. No direct allusion to 9/11 should be made, but a person familiar with 9/11 conspiracy theories should recognize the plot, again, in general sense, once everything becomes evident.

So maybe something along the lines of a particular city enclave requiring rather strict security checks following a major act of terror in that region. Some rather aggressive opposition faction is blamed. But later, it becomes evident that the force keeping order in the city actually orchestrated the whole thing specifically to be able to introduce new security measures, which they needed, perhaps, to be able to keep the less aggressive, but more popular opposition groups down.

This doesn't echo the 9/11 itself, but rather conspiracy theories surrounding it. Which is exactly what DX has been doing all along.

According to DX the Twin Towers were blown up by terrorists so I think we should stick to that. Secondly, many of the DX conspiracies were at least believable. And because many of the minor conspiricies were still very vague that didn't matter either. However, if you use the 9/11 conspiracy as a major one, it will be screwed. There's one very very simple question for people who believe in the 9/11 conspiracy: why the Twin Towers?
-It was not the most iconic American skyscraper. Before 9/11 I had never heard of the Twin Towers, but I had heard of the ESB. And this is true for many people.
-It was a way more important economical building than many other skyscrapers. Destroying it has propably cost the US government lots of many and way more if they destroyed a different skyscraper or a simple residential area.

If this had really been a conspiracy to try and get the US public opinion to be mad at the terrorists then crashing a plane into a suburb would've been sufficient. And it would've been a lot cheaper.

And really. If this was all set up, then the army must've known of it. But I don't think anyone working in the Pentagon would've been happy to sacrifice themselves to get a war started in Afghanistan.

However, it could very well have been that the US government did know about the attack or could've known of it. It has happend before that certain enemy actions were deliberately not prevented to get enough support for war. I think DX would've stuck to this explanation, because it is both realistic and fits in perfectly with the DX conspiracies.

Bahmo
18th Aug 2008, 05:31
The beauty of the first Deus Ex is that it didn't simply make some outlandish conspiracy theories credible, it made them relevent. The game has no allusion to 9/11 despite its controversy; it was made before 9/11. That said, even if the 9/11 conspiracy theories have too many technical holes, they probably would've been dismissed a whole lot earlier had politics and business not so blatantly taken advantage of the event to gain power and sell patriotism. Like I said, DX may have preceeded 9/11, but the important thing is that it's relevent, because it asked the player to make controversial decisions involving human rights, laws, and executive power.

The only reason Project for the New American Century isn't called a conspiracy is that it's publicly known, though not widely because a lot of people rejected it. That it had anything to do with secret societies or 9/11's excecution, I doubt, but that's not the important thing. What's important is that conspiracy or none, Americans have had their rights taken away and their economy ruined in the name of fighting for a just cause, and so long as the cause hasn't been achieved, it is an injustice, conspired or accidental.

As to Russia's war with Georgia, though, that does seem to speak more for there possibly being a short-term conspiracy concerning Iraq in order for perpetrators to monopolize oil sales, because Russia has displayed that exact desire in many of its prior dealings with Former Soviet Socialist Republics.

GamerX51
19th Aug 2008, 09:54
If DX3 is a sequel, I think the situation could be something similar to this:

At the end of the invisible war, Alex Denton Killed all of the faction leaders, but instead of just walking away at that point and leaving the world in a power vacuum (and thus, opening the door for the Omar to take over), he instead had Klara Sparks take over the WTO to keep the world's economy going. He then had Lin May Chen take over the Order church to meet the people's spiritual needs. Meanwhile, Alex himself took over Tracer Tong's underworld dealings with black market biomods and goods.

To conceal the fact that the WTO and the Order were involved in a global conspiracy, Alex agreed to take the blame for Chad Dumier, Nicolette Duclare, and JC Denton's deaths and become a wanted terrorist. This would set the stage for a new incarnation of UNATCO (or something similar to it) to arise in order to combat the "terrorist threat" of Alex Denton.

Meanwhile, the former Illuminati head, Morgan Everett, re-emerges as the leader of a global corporate conglomerate, with the secret goal of resurrecting the Illuminati. It could also be discovered that Everett was the one who came up with the Pequod's/Queeqeg's monopoly in order to make enough money to accomplish his goals.

Anybody please feel free to add to or subtract from my idea.

What does everybody think of my idea? It isn't exactly film-quality writing, but I think it could work! :cool:

general kane
19th Aug 2008, 18:48
the sequel is a prologue in its nature its very hard to make this game a sequel because whats left?? u cant like stay on the same scenario the same factions and the same take a side way of the first part , thats what made the secound sequel a big failure in the franchise , i think thy should try to explain some of the old parts of deus ex machina like the secound american civil war before the events of deus ex machina trying to explain who made it happen and what if majestic was behind that and there is a secret player in the invesible war ?

i know im making u dizzy :nut:

Tsumaru
19th Aug 2008, 23:54
There is no "machina" in the game title, Deus Ex.

K^2
20th Aug 2008, 02:38
There is no "machina" in the game title, Deus Ex.
I always wondered why. Is it implied? Is it because the game world itself is full of machinae? Or maybe someone even made a biblical connection. In principus erat machina. Et machina erat apud deum. Et deus erat machina.

Tsumaru
20th Aug 2008, 05:54
Haskins: Tell us about the name Deus Ex. What is its origin and why is it an appropriate name for your game?

Warren: Okay, at risk of opening myself up to major ridicule from grammarians everywhere, I'll tell you where Deus Ex comes from. I wanted to play off the literary term "Deus Ex Machina," which is Latin for "God From a Machine." And, yes, I know that means the name of my game translates to "God From," and, yes, I know I'm ending the game name with a preposition, and yes, I know that's not grammatical so sue me!

Anyway, Deus Ex Machina goes back to ancient Greek and Roman Theatre where an actor portraying one of the gods would be lowered to the stage by means of machinery pulleys and ropes and such to provide resolution to the plot and to solve the problems of mere mortals. In literary criticism, it's come to mean a person or event in a work of fiction that comes out of nowhere other than the writer's fevered imagination to solve seemingly unsolvable plot problems. It's a device typically used by bad writers who've written themselves into corners.

If fits Deus Ex for a couple of reasons. First of all, there are several forces in the game who aspire to God-like powers or actually end up having them. But it also refers to the fact that so many computer game plots are so hopelessly lame. We're all still trying to figure out how to tell stories in this relatively new medium we're no more sophisticated in the use of the tools of our medium than the Greeks and Romans were in theirs.

We always seem to resort to brute force, Deus Ex Machina storytelling and I liked the kind of self-referential, we're-doing-the-best-we-can-even-when-we-suck aspect of the title.

Finally, isn't the computer you're playing the game on just a God-in-the-Machine, in a sense? Deus Ex just worked for me on every level except pronouncability. And, by the way, it's pronounced "Day-us-Ex," not "Do Sex!"

Voila!

K^2
20th Aug 2008, 07:33
Thanks. But that still doesn't explain the lack of "Machina".

And I couldn't really find a Deus Ex Machina in DX plot. Sure, there are a few characters who have a lot of power, and they try to twist the sequence of events, but none of them actually have the final-say kind of power, like Deus Ex Machina does. It all ends up hanging in delicate balance resolved by a single individual. What is worse, that single individual, while drastically altering outcome with a single decision, really has absolutely no freedom of choice. Merely a trilema in which it was pushed by far more powerful forces.

This is as far from Deus Ex Machina as it gets.

The only thing that resembles Deus Ex Machina is Helios. Indeed, Helios is trying to literally become a God from Machine, but that is only dangled in front of a player as a promise of a utopian happy ending, without actually being part of the story told.

I was actually thinking of a possibility of a distant-future dark ages type sequel with that idea in mind. (Don't you just love it when these OT side notes come full circle to become topical again?) Picture a world hundreds of years past the Helios ending of IW. The golden age has ended as abruptly as it started. People unused to dealing with difficult situations could not properly respond to *Insert cataclysmic event here*. Helios has become an old myth, just like gods of the past. Majority of now dramatically smaller population is living without any kind of machinery in a feudal society and with virtually no historical record. Several enclaves, however, remain. But these are isolated cities with no means of producing a lot of machinery they rely on. They have small populations and paranoid governments. They exist in secret from outside society due to not unfounded fears of being overrun by "barbarians". But at the same time, they cannot exist like that much longer, as the machinery producing medicaments, food, and everything else needed to survive is progressively perishing. With this in mind, they send out "missionaries" to various cities and towns outside with a goal of taking control of local governments and create some level of protection that does not rely on technology.

Mixing of high tech society with a medievil backdrop can provide for some interesting gameplay. In fact, the game can start out with protagonist being a villager, and go with a Thief-like gameplay. At some point, protagonist becomes an agent for one of the high tech groups and becomes augmented.

Bahmo
25th Aug 2008, 21:14
An interesting idea; quite Wellsian, but it would be a tough sell for a game, especially a Deus Ex game. Deus Ex has always featured several key components that are practically fundamental at this point:

*It is futuristic and speculative, but not so much that it is alien to its players. The first game used real-world locations and created ambience with books, papers, and emails, while the second didn't go as far, but did satirize corporate popstars via NG Resonance.
*It is a shooter and a an espionage game. As such, equipment plays a big part.
*It features Augmentations.

Virtually eliminating technology and instilling collective nostalgia on humanity would be detrimental to all three of these ideas.

K^2
26th Aug 2008, 00:30
Well, it really isn't meant as a straight DX sequel. It is more of a game that starts a lot like Thief and ends up being DX. It probably shouldn't be marketed as Deus Ex, and neither the character nor, ideally, the player is aware of the high tech underworld from the start. Once the character discovers that underworld, though, the game should progress pretty fast towards high tech warfare, with equipment, biomods, etc. Of course, some of the low tech equipment might remain useful.

Bahmo
29th Aug 2008, 02:45
In that case, it's a good idea, but a sidestory in the DX mythos probably isn't what most people want.

K^2
29th Aug 2008, 03:12
Good point. The problem is, I really can't think of a whole lot of other options. The IW trick with merging DX endings won't work this time. And pretty much the only ending that leaves any kind of an opening, is the Illuminati ending. But then it is all going to go the way of NSF vs MJ12, and there might be too much Deja Vu. Then again, maybe a good, believable Deja Vu is all that people want.

APostLife
2nd Sep 2008, 07:54
Sorry to burst your bubble but if you don't like the idea of a sequel you might not like Deus Ex 3. I'm pretty sure it's going to be a prequel.

If course it is a prequel. It clearly states in Wikipedia.Duh?****

DXeXodus
2nd Sep 2008, 07:58
^^
The game is hinted at being a prequel to Deus Ex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Ex_3

CarloGervasi
5th Oct 2008, 03:45
I just want to take a quick second and give out a hearty guffaw to all the people who steadfastly refused to believe this game was a prequel, despite the overwhelming mountain of evidence that pointed in that direction, and the total lack of evidence that pointed in any other direction.

":lmao: "

René
5th Oct 2008, 03:48
I just want to take a quick second and give out a hearty guffaw to all the people who steadfastly refused to believe this game was a prequel, despite the overwhelming mountain of evidence that pointed in that direction, and the total lack of evidence that pointed in any other direction.

":lmao: "

No trolling! :lol:

Romeo
5th Oct 2008, 07:11
Ok, gloves are off.

lol

AaronJ
5th Oct 2008, 13:22
I just want to take a quick second and give out a hearty guffaw to all the people who steadfastly refused to believe this game was a prequel, despite the overwhelming mountain of evidence that pointed in that direction, and the total lack of evidence that pointed in any other direction.

":lmao: "

Lock your doors.

Romeo
5th Oct 2008, 21:33
lol, nah. Even perfect people like myself make mistakes every now and then. And we're so perfect we even go so far as to admit it. :D