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Aliera42
20th Jan 2008, 12:07
Split off from the other thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=74931)

I know it's just a teaser trailer and we shouldn't go crazy-wild with unfounded speculation, but the whole "Augmented people enter from the back"/"We do not welcome augmented here" has really been bugging me.

It's a really obvious reference to the blatant "No Coloreds allowed here"-type discrimination in the post-civil war era against the newly freed slaves. But I've always thought that DX world was, well... more subtle than that.

In today's modern era, when the general public is all too aware of discrimination of all kinds, of race, religion, gender, handicapped and etc, it seems like the future would only be more so. In our politically-correct world, we would never allow such blatant and obvious bias. Even though DX3 will most certainly take place in the future, it almost instead seems like a step backwards.

Personally, I would much rather have say, people treating mechs differently than they would normals (in a subtle way) than having it as the main theme of the game. While there was discrimination against mech-augmented in DX1, it was fairly low-key and more hinted at than anything, just a couple of emails and some things Anna+Gunther say (who are gone by the second half of the game, anyway.)

Lastly, even if there was discrimination against augmented persons, it seems like that would imply the wrong type of it. I can easily imagine people being scared of them, the government quietly keeping tabs on them, but "Augmented enter from the back" implies more of a second class citizen type discrimination than fear or control. What's to stop a disgruntled augmented from beating up the owners of the establishment of that sign? In the DX world where augmented persons have extraordinary abilities, it seems odd anyone would want to risk their wrath.

Finally, i think the owner of the other post had a point: in a world where augmentation technology is a new cutting-edge development, you would expect that becoming augmented would be insanely expensive. Only government-sponsored soldiers and rich body-modders/athletes/whatever would be able to afford them in the first place. They wouldn't exactly be enough of them to swarm the streets and have "Augmented Awareness" parades. :p

All and all, I hope that the finished game's themes will be more complex and plausible than what we've seen so far. But I believe in you guys! :cool:

gamer0004
20th Jan 2008, 15:45
I do not agree.
I don't think you can compare today's discrimination to possible discrimination in the future because of augs. Whatever you think of coloured people, they're not scary (not more scary than other people anyway). Mechanically augmentated people, on the other hand, are. So the normal customers wouldn't want to be confronted with augmented people.
Besides that, it is only a sign in the teaser, probably it isn't going to be in the game.

And oh, maybe augmented people wouldn't like to be discriminated. But what could they do about it? Beat up everyone they see? That's not going to happen.
And, if you read the DX bible, than you'll know that mechanically augmented people were very common in 2052.

import_Delos
26th Jan 2008, 04:22
I really hope they don't add a discrimination element, I think it would kill the game. The last thing I want is to feel like I'm being judged or I have to judge someone just to play a computer game.

For me computer games are about relaxation, a chance to get away from the real world after a long day at work.

jd10013
26th Jan 2008, 04:24
there was some of that in the first two games. as long as its done right, it shouldn't be problem.

the resolute girl
26th Jan 2008, 08:22
For me computer games are about relaxation, a chance to get away from the real world after a long day at work.

well, that's nice, legit and good but there are games for that kind of entertainment. deus ex always struck me as being a little more than that in all departements and did NOT strive to make it easy for the player, on the contrary.

if I want relaxation I play Portal or TF2 or any other dumb shooter. If I want more of my gaming experience I pack out the e.g. Thieves and DeusEx, SystemShocks, STALKER (not for the story)

I think you talk about the Wii

gamer0004
26th Jan 2008, 09:35
Wii lol

Yeah if say you game just to relax so you don't like discrimination, why are you playing DX?
DX is very entertaining, because it's not so easy and you really have to keep up with the story in order to make the right decisions.
For instance, black market biomods in DX:IW were boring. I didn't notice a difference in how they worked. It would've been so cool if black market biomods would influence your appearence so people would be scared off, but were more powerful than the normal biomods you can't see.

RedFeather1975
26th Jan 2008, 09:40
I think what Delos meant was he wanted to see a story that didn't regurgitate the same crap we see on the news everyday. I play games to relax as well. To escape the real world briefly.
If I start up a game and see right wing conservative type characters, going by some other name, ranting about augmentations and limiting their rights, blah, blah, blah, I'll shut it off.
I'm trying to take a break from all that.

And to be totally honest.
Racial discrimination parallels drawn in sci-fi.
DONE TO DEATH AND BEYOND.

SageSavage
26th Jan 2008, 10:16
I'm trying to take a break from all that.Yeah, me too. Even the most gripping games mean a welcome and thus relaxing break so incidents like the infamous "FNC vs Mass Effect" thing really bring me up in arms because they attack one of my most effective ways to relax. Sometimes it's simply impossible to close my eyes in front of something that already happens.

Xcom
26th Jan 2008, 10:23
Well, Deus Ex is a game which is set in a fairly believable, dystopian future. Many unpleasant issues that take place in the world today are supposedly even worse in the world of DX. IMHO, that's just a part of what makes Deus Ex Deus Ex.

Sometimes, I also want to "escape reality" as it were, but personally, I will not choose DX for that purpose.

SageSavage
26th Jan 2008, 10:37
Well, I also enjoy the parts of the game that makes me think about real world problems but this is the consequence of looking at it from distance created by the immersion. This is way more relaxing than facing the related but less intense problems in real life, imo. I'd agree though, that there are many games that are more relaxing than DX because they make one think of more positive things or don't even require any deeper thoughts. That's like the difference between having a great, intense discussion and going to the fair.

Papy
26th Jan 2008, 11:00
In today's modern era, when the general public is all too aware of discrimination of all kinds, of race, religion, gender, handicapped and etc, it seems like the future would only be more so. In our politically-correct world, we would never allow such blatant and obvious bias.
Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Darfur... Do you want me to go on? Do you want some freedom fries will looking at how ugly the world really is?

I'm not sure where you live, but racism and discrimination are everywhere. When there will be peace in the Middle-East, maybe you'll have a point, but honestly I think the situation is now a lot worse than what it was 40 years ago. I live in Montréal, and we just had a commission mandated by the government to know how we should treat immigrants. Yes, we now live surrounded by politically correct media, but people didn't change. The natural need for racism and discrimination is now somewhat hidden, but it is still there. It is only waiting for an excuse to burst.



For me computer games are about relaxation, a chance to get away from the real world after a long day at work.
Not for me. I want games to play with, not to relax with.

Tracer Tong
26th Jan 2008, 13:26
Firstly, I'm proud to have a split-off of my thread.

Secondly, I agree with what's written on the first post. I mean, why shouldn't the rich, which, in our capitalist world, have a lot of influence, beat the carp out of the people who don't let them in? As I previously said, the state should be the exact opposite. For the sake of the economy.

Thirdly, this thread is getting a little bit off-topic with the "escape reality" idea. My opinion about it is that games should sometimes reflect what we have in the outside world. It gives you the option of viewing popularly debated subjects from another point of view.

SageSavage
26th Jan 2008, 13:36
I apologize for hijacking the thread, it wasn't my intention.

maddermadcat
26th Jan 2008, 17:02
There's a difference between racial discrimination and discrimination against the augmented. While races are different only slightly due to the environments in which they settled, augmented humans are truly superior to non-augmented ones, so naturally people will hate them, most likely out of jealousy and fear of the technology.

So yeah, discrimination makes a lot of sense. In DX1, we saw the mechanically augmented disliking the nano-augmented, because they knew that they were becoming obsolete and were inferior to the nano-augmented. As augmentations become more and more common, instead of the mech-augmented hating the nano-augmented, you'll get ordinary people hating the augmented, because they too feel like they are becoming obsolete.

Papy
26th Jan 2008, 22:33
augmented humans are truly superior to non-augmented ones
They probably have skills ordinary people don't, but calling them "truly superior" is really a biased and dangerous point of view. Maybe you judge the value of a man by how much weight he can lift or how fast he can run, but personally I don't care that much about that kind of things. I'd also like to remind you of the killswitch. Would you think someone with a killswitch would really be "superior"?

maddermadcat
26th Jan 2008, 23:30
They are physically superior. They are capable of much more than an ordinary human. Those who would be discriminated against would be civilians, that is, ordinary people -- so the augmentations would have been purchased. Somehow I doubt that augmentations would be sold with killswitches installed. Those would only be used for military personnel and such.

Papy
27th Jan 2008, 08:32
I agree, but you are missing the point. Mechanical modifications is about people who are willing to sacrifice their integrity and to become dependent upon a probably unreliable piece of technology in order to have superior physical abilities. Now the question is : why are they willing to do that? In the case of a soldier who gives his life for his country, I guess it can be viewed as heroic. But for your neighbor? What does he have to gain? Why does he thinks running faster or being stronger will help his life in any way?

It certainly won't help him with his social life. I don't find women who do bodybuilding beautiful, so you can guess that a girl with metal arms and legs certainly won't be attractive to me. I may feel pity for a woman with prosthetic legs, I may even fall in love with her if she has other qualities, but I'm not a freak and I don't find prosthetic legs attractive.

To me, the person who is willing to sacrifice his body is either a "loser" who has no other choice in order to have a some worth in society (so he can be a better worker and please his boss, for example), or a criminial who will gain a lot for being able to beat the crap out of other people. At best, he's like those superficial people who buy a very expensive car to impress their neighbors, but then have to eat Kraft Diner every day because they have no money left.

Do you really think those people are "superior"? Do you really like to be around them?

RedFeather1975
27th Jan 2008, 09:02
Yeah, in the context of the Deus Ex universe I don't see much point to the average person wanting augmentations during that time frame.
The Omar's goal was about surviving the harshest conditions in the universe. But in Deus Ex, earth's environmental status is not really much different than todays. UV index appears the same, global temperatures don't seem drastically different, airborne pollutants don't seem that bad either.

SageSavage
27th Jan 2008, 10:05
Well, you all seem the forget how this augmantations will be of use in the working environment. It will quickly become a requirement for many jobs and thus it will be still sad but accepted, I guess. These people will get discriminated for a while - until they are the majority and reach the critical mass.

RedFeather1975
27th Jan 2008, 10:12
I like more the idea of mental augmentations.
Psychology and superhuman consciousness conflicts are crazy cool.

Abram730
17th Oct 2008, 06:00
I really hope they don't add a discrimination element, I think it would kill the game. The last thing I want is to feel like I'm being judged or I have to judge someone just to play a computer game.

For me computer games are about relaxation, a chance to get away from the real world after a long day at work.

Some people want to play a game to get away from problems and others like to run into them putting a few well placed bullet holes in them. Something you can't do in real life.

you start off as a cog in the machine in DX and end in solving virtual problems how you see fix..

If the media pisses you off watch the 4 hour documentary "The Century of Self" and perhaps you will look at it differently.


They are physically superior. They are capable of much more than an ordinary human. Those who would be discriminated against would be civilians, that is, ordinary people -- so the augmentations would have been purchased. Somehow I doubt that augmentations would be sold with killswitches installed. Those would only be used for military personnel and such.

People don't read the fine print. Like the adjustable rate mortgages.


I like more the idea of mental augmentations.
Psychology and superhuman consciousness conflicts are crazy cool.
Me too

local vs nonlocal hive minds are interesting.

with ant's as a model a colony is genetically identical and seem to use chemical ID's for individual ant identification. It's pure democracy as no ant is in charge of another.
Nonlocaly all colonies mate at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukS4UjCauUs
Nature it's self inspires this thinking in us. I'd argue that sometimes hive minds directly affect people.

As for anti-augment movements in a DX world, it would be probable. Perhaps they try to incite violence from the augmented and scream monster to any that will listen after. Perhaps some in power see it as a way to bridge traditional racial divides. Unification threw common cause.. predecessors to a movement that was formed into the templars..
perhaps we can get a peek into religion at a elite level..
http://vodpod.com/watch/734738-jeff-sharlet-talks-about-his-new-book-the-family
they are anti-church and use a cell structure of concentric rings of power. they display a love of hitler and use him as a Jesus figure.

I'd recommend reading confessions of an economic hitman... the same type of economics are described.

jc_lemon_lime
21st Oct 2008, 03:41
Split off from the other thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=74931)

I know it's just a teaser trailer and we shouldn't go crazy-wild with unfounded speculation, but the whole "Augmented people enter from the back"/"We do not welcome augmented here" has really been bugging me.

It's a really obvious reference to the blatant "No Coloreds allowed here"-type discrimination in the post-civil war era against the newly freed slaves. But I've always thought that DX world was, well... more subtle than that.

In today's modern era, when the general public is all too aware of discrimination of all kinds, of race, religion, gender, handicapped and etc, it seems like the future would only be more so. In our politically-correct world, we would never allow such blatant and obvious bias. Even though DX3 will most certainly take place in the future, it almost instead seems like a step backwards.

Personally, I would much rather have say, people treating mechs differently than they would normals (in a subtle way) than having it as the main theme of the game. While there was discrimination against mech-augmented in DX1, it was fairly low-key and more hinted at than anything, just a couple of emails and some things Anna+Gunther say (who are gone by the second half of the game, anyway.)

Lastly, even if there was discrimination against augmented persons, it seems like that would imply the wrong type of it. I can easily imagine people being scared of them, the government quietly keeping tabs on them, but "Augmented enter from the back" implies more of a second class citizen type discrimination than fear or control. What's to stop a disgruntled augmented from beating up the owners of the establishment of that sign? In the DX world where augmented persons have extraordinary abilities, it seems odd anyone would want to risk their wrath.

Finally, i think the owner of the other post had a point: in a world where augmentation technology is a new cutting-edge development, you would expect that becoming augmented would be insanely expensive. Only government-sponsored soldiers and rich body-modders/athletes/whatever would be able to afford them in the first place. They wouldn't exactly be enough of them to swarm the streets and have "Augmented Awareness" parades. :p

All and all, I hope that the finished game's themes will be more complex and plausible than what we've seen so far. But I believe in you guys! :cool:

perhaps the knights templar are organizing bigots into a grassroots anti augmentation canpagin

Deus_Ex_Machina
21st Oct 2008, 05:31
I would love to see discrimination in Deus Ex 3 because its relevant.

As much as some people would like to deny it, discrimination (especially racial) still exists in the world today.

I would REALLY like to see discrimination aimed at the main character. That would definitely give people some perspective.

imported_van_HellSing
21st Oct 2008, 07:20
This might be a good place to remind everyone of the DX Continuity Bible, and how Ion Storm originally envisioned the aug social issue (http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/april02/dxbible/dx2/index2.shtm):


Defining Humanity

There are no more significant racial divisions, a good thing, but this is far from a utopian world where all men are created equal. In addition to economic divisions, there are divisions among men based on augmentation. Specifically, the totally human of this world look down their noses at those who have been mechanically augmented.

Despite the effectiveness, and in some cases, the necessity of body modification, augmented humans are considered monsters. They look like primitive Borg and are widely feared by humans. The nano-augmented characters (like the player) are the first augmented humans who can "pass." To look at one, you might not even notice he or she is not a full human. This creates a tension among the three types of humans:

* Total humans consider themselves pure and are at the top of the heap. They need augmented humans but fear and distrust them. Most total humans don't even know nano-augmented humans exist.

* Mechanically augmented humans have their own airport security systems and have to register with government authorities. They are second-class citizens, looked down upon even by the non-augmented poor. There's no way a mechanically augmented human can pass for normal for very long. They're not allowed in certain locations and have separate facilities, ostensibly tailored to their unique needs but really as a way of controlling them.

* Nano-augmented humans are resented by their mechanically augmented brothers and sisters. They're as powerful as mechanically augmented humans but suffer none of the stigma associated with augmentation. They can pass through airport security and mingle with humans freely.