View Full Version : Do Eidos read and consider this forum?

17th Jan 2008, 12:12
Do Eidos read and consider this forum? Eidos should read it because here we make/made precious crtics.So please moderator say to me: Eidos put this opinions and critics on the desk and try to annalyse them and apply what is possible? In other words... are we beeing listened?

17th Jan 2008, 12:51
I'm also starting to wonder if we really are heard.

For example, I contacted two admins about that topic:


And those who are supposed to convey our suggestions to the studio don't show any support, whether through PMessage or thread.

If admins are not here or useless or don't want to shape things up, let's have them changed.

17th Jan 2008, 19:54
Imagine yourself walking into a soundproof room set up at the Audi factory and screaming your lungs out about the changes you think should be made in the design and production of a new upcoming model. And when you walk out you wonder if Audi execs happened to notice your mere existence. Do you get the drift? It doesn't matter what we think, it doesn't matter what we like or dislike or what we want to bring back or abandon. Game designers will do as they are told and accidentally would match some forum members recommendations prompting ecstatic response of the latter 'You see?!! They listened to us!!!!' Yea, right. The bottom line is: this is all of us: :mad2: and this is Eidos: :whistle:

17th Jan 2008, 20:32
I've seen them occasionally pop up in a thread when I was a guest unable to join. But if they've actually listened to what we have to say, including what we say elsewhere, why the engine decision?

17th Jan 2008, 20:56
I've read interviews where the boss at Eidos Montreal claims that he read allot of ideas and suggestions on the forums but that was probably awhile ago when they were in the pre-production stage... At this point they should already have a good idea of what they're going to put in this game in regard to the story and gameplay.

17th Jan 2008, 21:56
At this point they should already have a good idea of what they're going to put in this game in regard to the story and gameplay.

I think that's true. I'm pretty sure they read the forums, but it doesn't mean everything that is said or suggested automatically gets into the game. The devs aren't mindless drones who lack creativity and imagination to produce their own ideas, so people shouldn't expect them to "assimilate and analyze" data from every thread out here. The forum is primarily for us (fans) to discuss ideas and have fun while waiting for the game.

And those who are supposed to convey our suggestions to the studio don't show any support, whether through PMessage or thread.

Huh? You have the support, but what's up with "conveying suggestions"? The only things I can convey are the threads in the forum, but since the studio isn't on a different planet and has access to the forum, why would that be necessary? Secondly, the community doesn't speak with one voice. Suggestions are good, but not everybody agrees with everybody else (if you know what I mean). As far as certain popular subjects (eg: universal ammo being bad thing), something tells me that devs already know that. It's been discussed since IW, and they did their homework.

17th Jan 2008, 22:35
, why the engine decision?

Have you seen the new Tomb Raider screens? I must say the grapics look good. They are really bigging up this engine and have spoken about a new lighting system that makes the grapics seem more real. From what I've seen and heard about this new engine I don't think its the end of the world that Eidos has chosen the Crystal engine for Deus Ex 3.

Also Eidos will save money on using an inhouse engine, which means they have more money to spend on other areas.

17th Jan 2008, 22:37
All of you who think the devs don't read the forums are wrong. It has been said in various interviews that they do read the forums. I don't know where you get the idea that they do not. Just because they don't post does not mean they don't read.

If you want indeniable proof just read the article for yourself.

Quotes from article

"The whole team worked very hard. We're taking the franchise very seriously. We know how important it is for the fans. And everyone has an opinion, everyone will want to make it heard, we're going to be criticized just for making it, but one thing we want people to know is we did our homework. We went through everything, and we planted it as a seed, and it's beginning to grow into a tree. And we want the tree to grow straight. The proof of concept broke the ground, and we're continuing to grow that."

"With such an important franchise in the hands of a new studio, the staff at Eidos Montreal is keenly aware of the fan base. "On our website we already have a forum, and we want feedback from the fans. We want to give them the ability to participate and communicate to us what they want, and do not want, as early as possible in the development. And that's a valuable tool for our development -- not just our PR," said D'Astous.

"Every single comment" was being read by Anfossi while he still had the time to read them. "I've been very interested to see their comments so far on what they want and don't want," he noted. "

Stop speculating and read the facts so you don't need to post more speculation.

17th Jan 2008, 22:40
That still doesn't answer other issues.

18th Jan 2008, 09:10
If THEY reply in this thread that means they do visit the forum. Sometime such forum are part of a marketing strategy so to make the gamers(like us) busy and enthusiastic since different ppl have different story to tell and this keeps such forum alive therefore companies like EIDOS spend less on pre-advertisment.

18th Jan 2008, 20:05
Please read this editorial by Marek Bronstring (of idlethumbs) before expecting the devs to absord our every suggestion;

"It's a phrase that is almost instinctive to say: "They should listen to the fans!". But should developers really do that? Or more accurately, should they listen to those few fans who spend far too much time discussing games on internet forums? At a certain point during the life of a game or franchise, some vocal devotees will inevitably begin to feel ownership of their subject of fandom. But when game developers appear to ignore their wishes, this should not be seen as a bad sign. It probably means they know what they're doing. - An Editorial by Marek Bronstring


Don't listen to the fans

During my gaming life I'm sure I've complained angrily at least once about a company not listening to my demands, but as I matured and learned more about game development, I began avoiding this attitude. It seemed silly to believe that game developers still owe you when they were actually nice enough to create a piece of entertainment that you loved. Now that I've jumped the fence and become a developer on a small MMO, I've been on the receiving end of fan complaints, and it hasn't been much fun. At one point I was convinced that the overwhelming majority of fans are completely full of crap, and that they should be blissfully ignored at all costs. I loathed fan attitudes, the kind I probably once held myself, with furious passion.

The MMO I work on is a Mafia-themed online game that you can play in your browser, and it already had about 40,000 active players before I got on board. The game had been developed by various amateurs in their spare time, and it was the task of my team to redesign and professionalise it. Immediately it became clear to me that many changes would have to be made. Great, wonderful changes.

One of the first things we did was give the game a new interface and visual design. The original design looked much like a Geocities site circa 1997, and its menu system was essentially a list of 40+ unordered options. So we created a new skin and a categorized menu system with icons. I was very pleased with the results, but the fans hated it. They hated it so much that some of them formed coalitions in which to express their anger, toting banners stating "100% anti redesign" or "game admins = n00bs" in big red letters. With every little change that followed came a big community backlash. Even when small translation errors were corrected, the forums would be flooded with players demanding an explanation. Tough crowd...

Of course, MMO games consist largely of repeated patterns. Fight, loot, sell, level up. When those comfortable patterns are changed ever so slightly, you can be sure that the players will notice, and they will complain. No one really saw an improved interface when we updated it; they only saw that the interface they'd been using for two years was suddenly gone, disrupting their usual navigation routine.

As we added great new features in the following weeks, I became increasingly cynical. The changes were met with an ultra-conservative stance, even though they were blatant improvements in gameplay. It seemed the fans didn't want anything to change ever (or thought they didn't), yet they would still complain when there weren't regular updates. Whatever we did, it was always wrong.

I soon stopped soliciting for ideas, stopped answering the fans' questions, and felt increasingly superior. I almost got a perverse pleasure out of implementing changes that fans would hate, but which I knew would benefit the game in the long run. I felt the people at the bottom didn't understand what I was trying to make, despite constant efforts to explain it to them. The player community soon became the subject of many sardonic jokes made by our team over lunch.

But then an interesting pattern emerged: as it started to dawn on the players where the game was heading, attitudes began to change somewhat. The general outcries of "change it back!" and "what was wrong with it?" evolved into "I liked all the previous changes you made, but the last one is horrible". Of course the next week, the thing they hated before was amongst the things they loved, and they found a new thing to complain about. At least we knew it wasn't the new features they disliked, but de facto change.

The way the players switched opinions so easily meant it was very hard for us to figure out what they really wanted. A problem with most feedback, especially in a persistent game that is constantly evolving, is that most players are really just trying to protect their immediate personal interests. The guy who has slavishly hoarded a billion credits will be crying favouritism when a new feature gives newbies an advantage, and the guy who just got a guild after a month of levelling clearly isn't going to like it when you make it easier to start a guild.

In the end, it's obviously the game's overall balance and the lead designer's vision that should be listened to, not all the different player lobbies. On the other hand, it feels like the players should always be heard, as they're ultimately the customers who pay our bills. What kept me from turning bitter towards my audience was the realisation that content players normally won't post about them being pleased. Through getting to know some of the community members and being forwarded conversations from private guild forums, the fans actually seemed wonderfully supportive. It turned out the real fans were too busy playing the game to go into a forum and debate some minor change. A few players even secretly liked changes when talking in private, but went out on the public forums to complain anyway. (In which case I was strongly reminded of Penny Arcade's classic equation of "Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total wad".)

I discovered that the players I had been listening to most of the time were mostly, well, whiners. As long as there's the perception that there's something in it for them (i.e. the possibility of something getting changed in their benefit), they'll continue whining forever. It's easy to forget that they only represent a small minority of players. So instead of milling on the forums and addressing individual complaints, I took some steps back. I sent mostly standardised confirmations through private messaging to those who contacted me with ideas or concerns, and only appeared publicly once in a while to explain the reasoning behind a certain change. And it mostly worked. As the whiners realised they had less to gain, the atmosphere improved noticeably.

What I have experienced with this project for the past three months is probably a pretty extreme version of what developers generally have to cope with. Extreme because this was an MMO with an already established fanbase who were facing a new development team that they didn't yet trust. But I get the feeling that every game developer goes through this eventually even though, when working on a boxed product, this kind of feedback won't appear until after the game has shipped.

Realistically, you can't listen (let alone reply) to everything fans are saying. Not if you still want to spend any time actually working on the game. There is far too much noise amongst the feedback that players post online, and it usually comes from a loud minority that just complains because they have too much time on their hands. I learned to never get too emotionally involved, and to only occasionally post diplomatically phrased messages to deal with widespread concerns. When user feedback is actually needed, using private beta groups gets you a lot more bang for your buck. In a small group, it's a lot less rewarding for players to be loud and obnoxious, especially when they are posting in a private forum where all the developers are watching. They feel privileged to be on the beta group, and will try a lot harder to give you reasonable criticism.

The best thing to do as a designer is to let your instincts tell you if you're doing right, and to keep a good professional distance from your audience. After all, most fans couldn't design a game even if the world depended on it. Listening to the fans...? It's a good idea in principle, but rather pointless (and potentially destructive) in practice. "

Seriously, take a step back and see what you're expecting of them. THEY are making the game, not you or any of us. It's good if they read some of the forums, but we don't make the decisions. We can make suggestions and hope they read them but beyond that, we shouldn't think we know better than them just because we played Deus Ex a dozen times. We're still just gamers, not developers.

18th Jan 2008, 20:33
Yep they're making the game and not just for you. I'm confident they know what they're doing.

19th Jan 2008, 02:08
Have you seen the new Tomb Raider screens? I must say the grapics look good. They are really bigging up this engine and have spoken about a new lighting system that makes the grapics seem more real. From what I've seen and heard about this new engine I don't think its the end of the world that Eidos has chosen the Crystal engine for Deus Ex 3.

You don't pay attention at all. I'm not usually aggressive on this forum, but that was the most idiotic comment I've seen on here yet.

I'm with Unstoppable, I have confidence.

19th Jan 2008, 02:52
You don't pay attention at all. I'm not usually aggressive on this forum, but that was the most idiotic comment I've seen on here yet.

I'm with Unstoppable, I have confidence.

Eidos has made very high quality games in the past.

I have confidence.

22nd Jan 2008, 12:13
That still doesn't answer other issues.
Still accurate 5 days later.

Tracer Tong
22nd Jan 2008, 13:44
After reading that article, I have changed my opinion. I won't be creating threads about features any longer.

I remember the same thing from Oblivion forums, where most features that were suggested (even applicable and popular ones) didn't make it into the game, and the constant whining about the 'spear/levitation issue' (spears and the levitation spell didn't make it into oblivion, nor throwable weapons...Sounds stupid, doesn't it? Fans almost committed suicide from anger :eek: ) I think DX's players are much more mature than that type of fans . After the game came out, people started to cool off.
I completely trust EIDOS Montreal and its developers to do this one right.

Anyway, great find minus0ne.

22nd Jan 2008, 17:55
You don't pay attention at all. I'm not usually aggressive on this forum, but that was the most idiotic comment I've seen on here yet.

I'm with Unstoppable, I have confidence.

I was simply noting that the engine decision may not be a bad one, I don't see how that was an idiotic comment to be honest. Unless I miss understood what you meant when you said 'why the engine decision?'

I have confidence in the devs ability to make this game a great game, where in my post did I say I didn't have confidence?

22nd Jan 2008, 19:33
I really hope they do not read these forums. For the sake of Deus Ex 3, I hope they never come here.

22nd Jan 2008, 20:29
I hope they do, but have the wisdom to separate the wheat from the chaff.

22nd Jan 2008, 20:57
It works on both ways you know.

Nobody wanted universal ammo, but IW-devs thought it was the greatest thing on earth. 90% of dx players I know missed the skills, yet they removed them, for what reason? I still can't figure out the logic behind that decision. Many press comments stated that inventory was quite akward, but Spector and Smith contined praising it to high heavens. Level design was supposed to be revolutionary, but that story had a sad end. Sure they must have realized at some point what was about to happen, but it was too late to change anything. That kind of stuff happens when devs become blind on their own design. kinda like not seeing the wood for the trees. Smith and spector are both great guys and really talented, but sometimes the **** just hits the fan. Not even the best are immune for it. But life is a great lesson, and they will come up with great games in the future.

And regarding dx3, well devs have probably analyzed a lot what went wrong, so lets have some faith.

28th Jan 2008, 03:22
I don’t know they must drop by every once in a while to see what the die hard fan demographic wants.

28th Jan 2008, 03:53
It's hard to say whether any of the dev staff come to the forums.
I play Guild Wars and I've noticed that even though dev staff do not show themselves in the forums, several topics focusing on reasonable requests have lead to gradual changes in the game play.
Anet even have an official wiki with suggestion pages for Guild Wars 2, which I often visit and contribute too, mostly for fun. :)
Talking to the devs on the wiki, usually silly conversations about common interests, is at least a fun pastime.