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View Full Version : Alarming Issue in the Deus Ex Universe.



AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 10:45
I've noticed that unlike the many dystopian futuristic settings that are shown in various other games, movies, novels, comics, shows, etc. that there's no superultramega corporations setting up shop here and there (besides versalife and page industries that is.) You would think there would be taco bells and walmarts all over the place. No wonder everyone in the future looks like a sickly growth on the sole of society wrapped in tattered clothing.

That's what would really make Deus Ex 3 great...one. stop. shopping.

jordan_a
11th Jan 2008, 11:02
There's no superultramega corporationsSimple because it's highly unlikely to happen in the near futur, there are thousands of huge companies, not a couple: (and I don't think there will ever be a "supermega" one) american, japanese, german, british, french, japanese, chinese, indian, corean, saudi....

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 11:30
Simple because it's highly unlikely to happen in the near futur, there are thousands of huge companies, not a couple: (and I don't think there will ever be a "supermega" one) american, japanese, german, british, french, japanese, chinese, indian, corean, saudi....

Okay Mr.MENSA, you obviously don't know much about the whole dystopian future setting portrayed in anything that even closely resembles cyberpunk so I'll ignore the fact that you're taking this as an actual portrayal of society and just focus on the basics. In many of these settings the globalization and consolidation of corporate power and reach extends to the point where the majority of consumer (and quite possibly military and industrial) products are manufactured,produced,and sold by a single company. Now this is based on business tactics that can be seen today, you would be hard pressed to find a single American city in which there wasn't a Walmart or a Home Depot or a Blockbuster or a McDonalds, on top of that these same corporations are quickly expanding their consumer base outside of the country with McDonalds having stores in just about every industrialized country and Walmart quickly expanding to China and India. These will result in all smaller local brands and stores being quickly wiped out and replaced with even more of these massive American companies. Even in the automobile industry most major car brands are in actuality owned by a single larger company and are slowly being consolidated to the point where within a matter of twenty or thirty years it wouldn't be surprising to see all car brands being owned by as few as three or four larger companies. Korea's only major brands are LG and Samsung which provide more than half of the worlds supply of LCDs, Flash Memory, and other various electronic components used by a majority of other brands. In a near future setting it wouldn't be unthinkable to have these companies take over those who use their products in an effort to increase productivity and revenue. Besides all this, most countries or regions are specialized in the sense that they each have their own respective monopolies in different sectors however at the rate that these companies are expanding they are quickly dominating contemporary industry, and in a dystopian setting in which anti-trust laws and trade is less restricted it would only make it easier for these companies to consolidate to the point where all of the worlds products are manufactured, produced, and sold under a handful of brands. This is why all of these fictional futures have nothing but a few if not a single company making and selling every product you (or anyone else in the same respective fictional universe) uses.

All of that being said, you should probably do a little research on what you have just said because in every single country that you mentioned (and in a few cases misspelled) there are major companies and brands that own a majority of the smaller companies, regardless of what brand they are under, this is the case even in the United States whether or not you are aware of it, much like Yum! Brands (whose net income alone is close to one billion dollars a year) owns a good amount of fast food restaurants across the globe or how McDonalds owns majority shares (as in within 5% of holding the controlling share) in smaller food places such as Chipotles that are becoming more popular since they throw off the stigma of unhealthy fast food in favor of fresher ingredients outside of the world of burgers and buns. Your ignorance towards corporate consolidation and globalization is kind of scary...you should try reading some books or something.

jordan_a
11th Jan 2008, 11:42
Your ignorance towards corporate consolidation and globalization is kind of scary...you should try reading some books or something.WTF? Who the hell do you think you are to lecture me? I didn't pay attention to the dystopian futuristic settings, I thought you were talking about our current world. In which there are no so such things as supermega companies. Nearly each country has its champion(s) and like I said, I don't think there will be on our earth one company owning an entire sector (Wallmart yes... but Carrefour also for example). By the way I forgot Russia earlier.

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 11:57
Look,don't kid yourself...There's alot multinational companies (alot of them with headquarters in the United States and mailboxes in the caymans too) that make more in a year then a good amount of countries do. Russian companies are jokes, they lost everything when they decided to go all soviet. But yes, even in the world of video games you should be able to see the consolidation, Vivendi buying blizzard? Eidos buying ion storm,etc.? EA buying anyone they can? There's no denying this, it's only a matter of time before the number ones buy the number twos and they own everything...even if there are smaller brands around,they won't be enough to stand up to these major megacorporations.

jordan_a
11th Jan 2008, 12:08
Russian companies are jokes.Tell that to Ukraine and all the european countries depending on russian gas.


they lost everything when they decided to go all soviet.
land mass, oil, gas, water, timber, coal, iron-ore, diamonds, potassium, fish, gold... I'd like to be that lost!

Frankly you really should subscribe to the economist or anything or read less novels because this vision is absolutely false.

Yes there are huge companies which worth more than some countries (african mostly) and are consolidating their position on several markets but not to the point where a single one owns an entire sector. It's called protectionism, every country protects its champion first. There are limits to expansion.

Inane Mythos
11th Jan 2008, 12:21
Frankly you really should subscribe to the economist or anything or read less novels because this vision is absolutely false.

Yes there are huge companies which worth more than some countries (african mostly) and are consolidating their position on several markets but not to the point where a single one owns an entire sector. It's called protectionism, every country protects its champion first. There are limits to expansion.
Exactly. Each country has a limit on how many small companies major companies can buy. This is not only to protect the consumer, but the overall economy aswell.

Each time a company buys another, jobs have to be cut. This is a fact. And if a single company kept on buying and buying every single company, thousands if not tens of thousands will be unemployed and this will distrupt the economy.

Maybe you should read less.

In terms of Deus Ex, this would work. Real life it's a no-no.

Tyrant Worm
11th Jan 2008, 19:08
Exactly. Each country has a limit on how many small companies major companies can buy. This is not only to protect the consumer, but the overall economy aswell.

Each time a company buys another, jobs have to be cut. This is a fact. And if a single company kept on buying and buying every single company, thousands if not tens of thousands will be unemployed and this will distrupt the economy.

Maybe you should read less.

In terms of Deus Ex, this would work. Real life it's a no-no.

Yes, each country has a limit, but how old are those laws that set the limits on these corporations? I believe the last time I heard of a company violating an anti-trust agreement was AT&T in the 80's - and they're still a major corporation. All fiction contains some gem of truth, or else it wouldn't exist.

By the way, Capitalism CAN NOT work without an unemployed class.

Everyone should read more!

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 19:43
You people must live a pretty sheltered life if you think these companies play by the rules, Tyrant Worm is right, look at Microsoft, found guilty of numerous anti-trust violations...but oh nooooo we just can't live without the crap that is windows, so they just have to pay an inconsequential amount of money, a drop in a bucket in their massive income. The larger these companies get the more power they hold over whatever country they are located in. The idea that companies will enjoy supranational power and freedom is an idea that already exists, which is pretty surprising for someone who lives in a member country of the European Union since they are the ones that make the decisions on things such as market laws, trade laws, infrastructure, power, enviromental laws, etc.

This is not a matter of if, but when.

jordan_a
11th Jan 2008, 19:48
You people must live a pretty sheltered Thank you for your concern. In passing, what happened to your russian theory?

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 20:12
Thank you for your concern. In passing, what happened to your russian theory?

Jesus...do you spend every waking moment on these forums?
Anyways, I completely stand by my Russian theory, while you are right about the fact that they possess a wealth of natural resources (mainly due to it's inordinate size) when the soviet union was formed the oligopic nature of it's new economy resulted in some of their largest and richest companies consolidating power and then dropping in overall quality since they had few to no small competetiors, this was one of it's major stalling points since as it stands currently, Russia only has the eighth largest GDP (which considering the amount of attention it's gotten for it's exemplary tax system, the amount of money invested in science and infrastructure, the fact that it has the largest amount of higher education graduates in all of Europe, it's position as one of the global leaders in space and aeronautics, it's relative military superiority compared to a good amount of other industrialized countries, etc.) the mere fact that Russia is not the number one or two or even three superpower (overall as a country) can be attributed to the mistakes and scars left from when the Soviet Union was formed and then dissolved. The World Bank has stated that despite the country's current growth, it faces a number of challenges that put a risk of stagnation on the countries economy, these include diversifying the economy, improving competitiveness, encouraging the growth of small and medium enterprises, building human capital and improving governance...not a small task especially in an economy already established by leading countries with nothing more than a local superiority preventing any outward expansion of Russian companies and in the future could easily allow larger outside companies entrance into the economy resulting in outside dominance of the Russia market.

Reiteration: They've already lost everything.
Accession: They're never going to be an economic superpower.

ThatDeadDude
11th Jan 2008, 21:00
Accession: They're never going to be an economic superpower.

lol, I think you underestimate Putin et al. Sure, the resources won't last forever, but in the meantime they're raking it in. Gazprom's already the world's third largest corporation by market cap and there are a good few countries they can single-handedly bring to their knees by cutting off gas.

For your interest's sake, research has shown that perpetual merging and acquisition is inefficient. The majority of such moves leave both companies worse off than they were at the start.

Fuzzman
11th Jan 2008, 21:15
I'm sensing some tension here. I have no knowledge of the topic at hand, but as I read this thread in passing, you guys can get a more productive discussion going if you lay off the aggressiveness. This is a forum, don't take things personally, but don't deal it out either. You may continue your debate.

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 21:26
lol, I think you underestimate Putin et al. Sure, the resources won't last forever, but in the meantime they're raking it in. Gazprom's already the world's third largest corporation by market cap and there are a good few countries they can single-handedly bring to their knees by cutting off gas.

For your interest's sake, research has shown that perpetual merging and acquisition is inefficient. The majority of such moves leave both companies worse off than they were at the start.

While I understand where you are coming from on the gas (and oil) fronts...they don't supply or majorly supply to the "top tier" countries if you will which (which still rely on the Saudis for their gas and oil needs). But case in point: you use Gazprom as an example of a major russian company that is a world leader in market share however the only reason they are so closely behind the Saudis and the Iranians is because of the company's history of consolidation and privatization of assets, paired with it's controlling interests in other assets such as banking, insurance, media, construction and agriculture only goes further to strengthen my stand (on the whole, globalization, one do-it-all company stance anyways.) Although I admit, until this point I had only read about Gazprom in passing and never really looked into the company, but it was interesting reading about the company's history and such.

Also,could you do me a favor and give me a link to a website showing Gazprom's updated market capitalization as the numbers I have found for 2007's second fiscal quarter show Gazprom ranking number seven and even in more updated articles only showing their capitalization slightly above three hundred billion (without any credible source or actual figures at that) which still puts it behind Exxon Mobil, General Electric, and China Mobile at number four...plus this quarter isn't quite done yet so there could still be a few surprises.

AgnosticJive
12th Jan 2008, 02:28
AT&T was broken up not that long ago, which is where Verizon came from (and another company whose name escapes my memory at the moment).

And AgnosticJive, you're idea for a gameplay mechanic is just crap. People like to explore cities and having different shops around different parts of cities definitely help with this. Having one ******* place where you get your supplies from is convenient, but it doesn't add atmosphere to the game in the same way that exploration does. And before you jump any further, exploring an entire ******* store is not nearly as fun as exploring a city.

Also, you're whole "look at me, I'm a ***tard who refuses to normal sized text" bull**** is well, bull****. **** you.

Whoa there kid...who said a single word about gameplay? You are taking things severely out of context...and you obviously don't know much about the entire setting that these types of stories take place in since it's not only common, but a staple of the genre. Oh,and I'm sorry...I must have missed the shopping mall level of Deus Ex where could bargain hunt for a bunch of nameless military hardware that finds it's way into civilian hands, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about since you buy items like coca cola from countless stores not from coca cola itself (guess that never quite occured to you.) As far as AT&T is concerned,AT&T was over split over twenty years ago, in the time since then the company has regained more than one third of it's previous assets (not to mention various outside assets) and continues to rebuild horizontally in order to avoid the same mishap as what happened in 1984. That coupled with the fact that both Verizion and Qwest (the other two thirds of the original AT&T Corporation) have since expanded also by buying out smaller companies has just made even more large corporations which will at some point most likely come full circle and be unified under one brand again.

Now as for your little rant about my font size...you are inordinately angry for absolutely no reason. grow up kid.

jordan_a
12th Jan 2008, 03:14
I'm sensing some tension here. I have no knowledge of the topic at hand, but as I read this thread in passing, you guys can get a more productive discussion going if you lay off the aggressiveness. This is a forum, don't take things personally, but don't deal it out either. You may continue your debate.Well since you mentionned that...

-you obviously don't know much (twice)
-Your ignorance towards corporate consolidation and globalization is kind of scary...you should try reading some books or something
-You people must live a pretty sheltered life
-you obviously have no idea
-grow up kid
Is that what you would call deliberately setting up a tense ambience?

AgnosticJive
12th Jan 2008, 06:10
It's not deliberate at all however if it happens,it happens.

Aside from that you took things out of completely out of context which makes me look more aggressive then I am actually being. "...you obviously don't know much..." and "...you obviously don't know much about the dystopian future settings these [games,comics,movies,etc.] take place in..." have two completely different meanings.

Ignorance is ignorance...trying to argue about a subject you know little to nothing about and using faulty evidence is ignorance, plain and simple...if you don't like it oh well, don't enter the discussion then.

I used "you have obviously have no idea what you're talking about..." to point out the fact that he was misunderstanding the entire meaning of this thread and the topics contained within...if what a person says and what they do on a daily basis conflict yet they remain steadfast about their position...they are quite confused and need to rethink their argument before continuing.

"grow up kid" easy...it means grow up, it's inane and petty to attack someone because of their font size, if he can't read it then he should either A. Increase his brower's text size or B.Go to an optometrist and set up an appointment to have his eyes examined since he obviously is having trouble seeing things.

Don't take things out of context to attack someone, it shows a lack of ability to come up with substantial proof to validate your points...and While obviously fuzzman just wants to keep the peace (an admirable quality) it doesn't quite work out so well in practice, if you don't want to be part of an intelligent argument or debate, then do what he did, admit you don't know what's being discussed, and don't post pointless words meant to agitate others.

jordan_a
12th Jan 2008, 12:26
if you don't want to be part of an intelligent argument or debateAn intelligent debate... Is that what you call talking with someone arrogant and disdainful? If you think you'll be respected by using that superior tone of yours you're mistaking. Once you've learnt how to confront opinions respectfully (We can do it over here in Europe why couldn't you?) by avoiding sentences like: "Go to an optometrist and set up an appointment to have his eyes examined since he obviously is having trouble seeing things." we might be able to enjoy this conversation.

But if the only thing we read from you is:
argumentation no matter how relevant it is - scorn to A
argumentation - scorn to B
and so on then no thanks. On the contrary, you don't need to look down on people when they're wrong. For all that so far that's what you have done mostly and it's both bothering and puerile.

Kneo24
12th Jan 2008, 13:13
Whoa there kid...who said a single word about gameplay? You are taking things severely out of context...and you obviously don't know much about the entire setting that these types of stories take place in since it's not only common, but a staple of the genre. Oh,and I'm sorry...I must have missed the shopping mall level of Deus Ex where could bargain hunt for a bunch of nameless military hardware that finds it's way into civilian hands, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about since you buy items like coca cola from countless stores not from coca cola itself (guess that never quite occured to you.)

Now as for your little rant about my font size...you are inordinately angry for absolutely no reason. grow up kid.

You said that the idea of mega corporations was missing from Deus Ex, meaning that you probably wanted it to be in the next game. Your comment about "that's what would make Deus Ex 3 great" implies you want that in the game.

I'm stating that as a gameplay decision, it's a **** idea. Also, I know quite a bit about Cyberpunk (and dystopian settings in general), but that doesn't mean every element of previously mentioned things would work as a gameplay element.

You are the one who started attacking people for no other reason than just to do it after your second reply in this topic. You don't like? Don't throw bricks. So here's my advice, child, go back to doing whatever you fence sitters enjoy, and stay the **** off these forums. You are clearly not capable of a rational or thought out argument.

And about your font size, I can read it just fine. I just think it consists of douchebaggery. You're doing it because you can, and you know it will bother some people in some fashion. You are not doing it to emphasize any sort of point other than that.

ThatDeadDude
12th Jan 2008, 14:54
Also,could you do me a favor and give me a link to a website showing Gazprom's updated market capitalization as the numbers I have found for 2007's second fiscal quarter show Gazprom ranking number seven and even in more updated articles only showing their capitalization slightly above three hundred billion (without any credible source or actual figures at that) which still puts it behind Exxon Mobil, General Electric, and China Mobile at number four...plus this quarter isn't quite done yet so there could still be a few surprises.

I've left this a little late, what with most other people seeming to post out of different time zones; but my source was a quick look at Wikipedia's entry on the company. Their sources are cited, but seem a little old at a second glance.

imported_van_HellSing
12th Jan 2008, 15:00
Agnostic, would you please stop it with the small font gimmick? Not only does it make your posts hard to read, but also makes you look like an attention whοre, no better than people who write EVERYTHING IN CAPS or overuse bold and colours.

JulianP
12th Jan 2008, 15:50
Don't take things out of context to attack someone, it shows a lack of ability to come up with substantial proof to validate your points...and While obviously fuzzman just wants to keep the peace (an admirable quality) it doesn't quite work out so well in practice, if you don't want to be part of an intelligent argument or debate, then do what he did, admit you don't know what's being discussed, and don't post pointless words meant to agitate others.
Right back at you.

minus0ne
12th Jan 2008, 16:38
On the topic of Russia - don't count them out just yet. While their economy is in a slump, they still have a lot of armed forces; 1,3m soldiers, 40.000 tanks and 40.000 fighter planes (not to mention 450 ICBMs and 4300 nuclear weapons). And unlike the US, they actually have the FUEL to power their armed forces (the US will run out of domestic oil by 2013, by which time their army will become completely unaffordable).


Russian companies are jokes, they lost everything when they decided to go all soviet.
Are you kidding me? You clearly don't know your history. All major Russian corporations were created when the Soviet Union collapsed, as the United States sent their craziest neo-conservatives over there to come up with the most insane form of free market economics, and overnight all state owned companies were privatized (much the same as they tried with Iraq). These companies are now doing very well. Perhaps you missed the part where they supply almost all of Europe with gas.

Anyway, the supermegamarket idea just sucks. And I think there are examples a plenty of private consolidation in the DX universe. Though mainly in DX:IW, where it was the basis for some of the (even) weaker quests/bits.

B0b_P@ge
12th Jan 2008, 16:58
AgnosticJive, I agree with your topic and I agree whole-heartedly with your arguments as well; jordon_a doesn't bring anything new to the discussion; moreover, he's already proven himself to be in my previous topic: "The 'How to make Dx3 successful' guide" by completely misreading the topic and then hijacking it with his mistake (Unfortunately, a lot of people followed in his footsteps afterwards... are these kids or something?) *sigh*

jordan_a
12th Jan 2008, 17:29
Bob_page if you have something to say about another thread, do so on the concerned thread. Moreover, 5 guys including me didn't understand the aim of your thread so I'm not responsible for anything.

Xcom
12th Jan 2008, 17:30
I see an alarming pattern emerging here: another thread from you, Agnostic, turned into a flamefest. I can only speculate why that is. *sigh*