PDA

View Full Version : The 'How to make DX3 successful' guide.



B0b_P@ge
11th Jan 2008, 03:14
(1)
In DX1 & DX:IW the development budget had different priorities, thus with resources allocated differently, different results where accomplished, here are the priorities that I interpreted from reading various stuff from across the internet:

Dx1:
Graphics: Lowest
Gameplay: Highest
Story: Highest
Music: Low
Voice Acting: Medium
Platform: PC
Result: Greatest game.

Dx2:
Graphics: Highest
Gameplay: Medium
Story: Low
Music: None
Voice Acting: Medium
Platform: Designed for Console, but ported for PC as well
Result: Average game if you don't compare it to Dx1; otherwise with the comparison, it's a horrible game.
______________________________________________________
Conclusion: The team that developed & created Dx1 gave much of their personal touches to it, you know, personally involved in the development, I mean you could sense that the developers where nerds themselves that probably got together on weekends and played D&D, Warhammer or something ; moreover, they where fresh done from MIT so they had a lot to prove and their hard work was felt. Dx:IW's team was a negative contrast to the first, because they didn't put any personal touches to it, the developers where basically normal guys & gals with families to feed so making the game was just a 9-5 job they just had to do to bring in the money, doing it completely detached from adding any personal touches (-you know- that extra special touch that makes the game magic). It's no wonder DX:IW felt so extremely hallow.

Recommendation: Focus on storyline & gameplay and you'll be fine. Dx1 was renowned for its below average graphics, yet that didn't stop it from being crowned 'one of the greatest games'. Don't waste your resources on a 'live orchestra' or 'Hollywood voice actors', etc, just focus on storyline/story development/ gameplay,etc.


Note: I am not comparing an arbitrary quantity (like was it good/low) but development budget. I'll put it in simpler terms.... the money that's spent on that aspect of the game. So if I say 'Music: Low' that means that not much money was put into music development during the creation on the game; so let me repeat, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE GAME HAD LOW QUALITY MUSIC



(2)
In all honesty, take everything that was great about DX1 & some interesting improvements from DX:IW.

"Dx3 will have a deeper STORYLINE then Dx1"
"Dx3's fps/rpg gameplay will be similar with GREATER ADDITIONS then Dx1 had"
"Dx3 will actually have music unlike Dx:IW and it will be similar sounding to DX1 "
"Dx3 will be an intelligent game that rivals Dx1".


(3)
Don't lie or hype up your game about X/Y/Z features. A lot of us fans feel ripped off from what the previous company said Dx:Iw will be and what it was.



(4)
Do NOT dumb down the game! What made DX1 so unique was that it was targeted for a 'above average' audience so when I was young, the game inspired me to learn what I didn't understand/know; moreover, it made me look further into certain topics.

Unstoppable
11th Jan 2008, 04:27
I like this post, well done.

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 08:41
It's so nice to see how every trick on the internet knows exactly what it takes to make a great game, no wonder they're all comfortably employed and well paid in the video game industry ;) .

That being said...something so many people on this and other forums fail to realize is that they are basing assumptions on what has been said about these games and not fact.

Case in point: Deus Ex 1 was built with "above average graphics" in mind, the developers even went so far as to note how the characters in the game would be able to perfectly lip sync their voice overs...an abysmal failure but whatever (and to the comment that it was noted for below average graphics? "overall Deus Ex certainly looks better than your average game." - IGN,the game haters.)

BOTH Deus Ex games had a pretty good story in mind...just one of them didn't quite pull it off .

The music in the games are boring and repetitive...and with computers the way they are now it would be quite easy for someone to just listen to their own music while playing the game so the music isn't even that big of a deal.

Voice acting...don't even start,the voice acting in deus ex was good for like three characters, the rest just sucks; you want good voice acting? two words MASS EFFECT (save for a certain Commander Shepard.)

Now we have the final piece:console development. Everyone is crying and whining about how developing for a console is just ensuring the game is going to fail...well consoles have come quite a long way since then and the PS3 and Xbox 360 rival if not beat out most computers in the graphics and processing departments. The main issue with IW and console development was the smaller levels and cut down graphics. This has become a non-issue as consoles are capable of so much more now, Elder Scrolls:Oblivion, Mass Effect, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, etc. Bioshock has AMAZING environments, Assassin's Creed is by far one of the most gorgeous games with some of the largest levels I have ever seen. Mass Effect was not only huge (both in size but also in scope) but on top of that had a great story line with one of the best dialog systems ever conceived.

Hell, IW even had a pretty above average score (PC:80% Xbox:84% on metacritic.)

If people can't afford an HDTV and a next-generation game console in addition to a DX10 capable computer then perhaps they shouldn't be complaining about console development or not needing graphics or this or that and just wanting what is basically an updated version of deus ex 1...if that's the issue, perhaps you should just keep playing Deus Ex 1 over and over again. I'm sure the current developers have learned from IW's shortcomings so the last thing they really need is someone who has no idea how the system works telling them how to do their jobs. If they mess the game up then screw it,don't buy it. No sales=No money,they'll get canned and boom...no more people that are bad at their jobs since they would be unemployed.

Leave the decisions to the ones who actually have to work on it and not just sit around making wish lists about what they want to see, if they want people to buy their game they'll make it good, if not then...well,sucks for you.

AgentSmithereens
11th Jan 2008, 10:12
How can you say the music in DX was low? In my opinion it was one of the greatest aspects about the game.

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 10:38
I believe he was stating that from what he can gather from random articles that he may or may not have actually read, the music was not high on the list of importance in their development cycle. In regards to your thinking that it was one of the greatest aspects about the game...well that's just nice for you now isn't, I guess not all of us can listen to the same instrumental track played again and again every forty-five seconds without wanting to bore a hole in our skull.

jordan_a
11th Jan 2008, 10:57
Dx1:Graphics: Lowest
Music: Low
Voice Acting: Medium
Dx2:
Story: Low
Music: None

Wrong.

Kill Switch
11th Jan 2008, 13:13
In my opinion the music in Deus Ex was superb and fit the settings well. Even the repetitive Hong Kong music, which I did not dislike, set the mood. And if you play Deus Ex 2, attempting to ignore all its fault, it has a descent story line.
And I can never get enough of the Deus Ex 1 intro music.

Red
11th Jan 2008, 13:52
And I can never get enough of the Deus Ex 1 intro music.

Oh yeah. I have it as a ringtone on my cellphone. And it kicks ass. When someone is calling me, I just leave it playing for some time before answering just so that I can rest and feed my soul :D

B0b_P@ge
11th Jan 2008, 14:23
Some of you need to learn to read, I am not comparing an arbitrary quantity (like was it good/low) but development budget. I'll put it in simpler terms.... the money that's spent on that aspect of the game. So if I say 'Music: Low' that means that not much money was put into music development during the creation on the game; so let me repeat, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE GAME HAD LOW QUALITY MUSIC. :mad2: I for one STILL LISTEN to the Dx1:goty music, my fav song is the Wan Chai Market. I absolutely loved the music from Dx & ut99.

In hindsight, I should of put, "Music: medium" because they had 2 musical artists and 3 song from one contracted artists (HK nightclub, Paris nightclub, NY Bar music).

jordan_a
11th Jan 2008, 14:33
I am not comparing an arbitrary quantity (like was it good/low) but development budget.My bad then. But how would you know about that? :)

Red
11th Jan 2008, 18:39
He was the accountant, didn't you know?

Tyrant Worm
11th Jan 2008, 18:47
Now we have the final piece:console development. Everyone is crying and whining about how developing for a console is just ensuring the game is going to fail...well consoles have come quite a long way since then and the PS3 and Xbox 360 rival if not beat out most computers in the graphics and processing departments. The main issue with IW and console development was the smaller levels and cut down graphics. This has become a non-issue as consoles are capable of so much more now, Elder Scrolls:Oblivion, Mass Effect, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, etc. Bioshock has AMAZING environments, Assassin's Creed is by far one of the most gorgeous games with some of the largest levels I have ever seen. Mass Effect was not only huge (both in size but also in scope) but on top of that had a great story line with one of the best dialog systems ever conceived.

This is exactly the point I've been trying to get across!!!;)

Unstoppable
11th Jan 2008, 19:00
Deus Ex: Invisible War had good music so not sure why the original poster put music:none. ??

jordan_a
12th Jan 2008, 12:35
That's why:

Some of you need to learn to read, I am not comparing an arbitrary quantity (like was it good/low) but development budget
But I can't figure out how any of us would know about that? :confused:

Concerning consoles porting I hope AgnosticJive is right. The 360 and PS3 both look powerful (I expect the latter to be even more) but I don't think they can compete with computers. That is to say there's no way Oblivion 360 or PS3 could support several mods like PC does.

Thus to my mind the gap, even if narrowing, is still existing and should, once again, harm the PC version.

B0b_P@ge
12th Jan 2008, 17:10
My bad then. But how would you know about that? :)

Algorithm for Jordon_a
Click Deus Ex.exe
Click Credits
*READ!!*

Click Deus Ex: Invisible War.exe
Click Credits
*READ!!*

*Then compare*

As a side note, some of you will notice that the team for dx:Iw was a lot smaller too :mad:

jordan_a
12th Jan 2008, 17:51
He was the accountant, didn't you know?
:) .Credits are a good idea but budget-wise it's difficult to know about the precise investments in specific areas.

B0b_P@ge
12th Jan 2008, 18:10
:) .Credits are a good idea but budget-wise it's difficult to know about the precise investments in specific areas.

Actually thats fair enough and I agree, there's no 'real' way we could get a sense of the budget, but if we make a few assumptions we can get a general feel for what they prioritized so hopefully this can be replicated.

If you want to achieve a certain success, you must do the things that'll bring about that particular success.

Kneo24
13th Jan 2008, 17:50
This should really go without saying, but I think it needs to be pointed out because of the trend happening these days; do not release a buggy game. Granted you can patch it later on, but if the initial taste from a lot of people is sour, word of mouth gets around and less people will buy the game.

Testing is absolutely important. I unnderstand that you may want to test certain things on the same machines, but that really should only be in the alpha development phase. Once it goes to beta, you need to throw everything you have at it to ensure compatibility.

Tracer Tong
13th Jan 2008, 17:55
Don't forget the physics engine (Havok?) that must've cost loads of money.

mr_cyberpunk
14th Jan 2008, 01:24
It's so nice to see how every trick on the internet knows exactly what it takes to make a great game, no wonder they're all comfortably employed and well paid in the video game industry

:whistle: .. lol yeah it is so interesting ain't it.. and yet your sarcasm is actually true for me :D

Also the OP neglected that the DX1 was also on PS2 :P (which the PS2 is actually quite good considering)

Sean D
1st Oct 2009, 21:21
How about a bump?

Spyhopping
1st Oct 2009, 21:52
A not so golden oldie... Ah, I remember that guy and his tiny writing. I can't remember why, but he used to get on my nerves.

Blade_hunter
1st Oct 2009, 22:08
There is somethings wrong about the definitions about the different games

Dx1:
Graphics: Average (for the time ...)
Gameplay: Highest
Story: Highest
Music: High (the fact the themes are discrete doesn't even mean the musics aren't good, they are great and accentuate the immersion in the game)
Voice Acting: Good
Platform: PC
Result: One of the greatest games ever made.

Dx2:
Graphics: High (they were pretty standard but the colors and the grey color made the graphics very dull)
Gameplay: Below medium (A lot of the greatest aspects were gone; the level design doesn't helped the game on that side, the weapons were underpowered, the AI not made for that kind of confined spaces and more other that people known and could mention here anyway...)
Story: Above medium (Above many standards at least, this is a thing were DX 2 is superior to many FPS, even if it's not the case of the RPGs)
Music: Low
Voice Acting: Medium
Platform: Designed for Console, but ported for PC as well
Result: Average game if you don't compare it to Dx1; otherwise with the comparison, it's an horrible sequel and a forgettable game, not horrible, but just medium and not enough to be memorable as a good game bu memorable for being one of the major disappointment for me and many fans

Perhaps I'm wrong and my opinion is totally subjective, even if I try to be the most objective as possible ...

Dead-Eye
1st Oct 2009, 22:53
The main issue with IW and console development was the smaller levels and cut down graphics.

Smaller levels yes, however it has a lot more to do with keyboard vs. Xbox controller. Did you know you can jump in the PC version of Bioshock but not in the Xbox 360 version? This meant the entire game was developed without jumping based action included anywhere in the game play. System Shock 2 had jumping based actions in it but not Bioshock, because it had to be made with the console in mind.

Ashpolt
2nd Oct 2009, 00:21
Smaller levels yes, however it has a lot more to do with keyboard vs. Xbox controller. Did you know you can jump in the PC version of Bioshock but not in the Xbox 360 version? This meant the entire game was developed without jumping based action included anywhere in the game play. System Shock 2 had jumping based actions in it but not Bioshock, because it had to be made with the console in mind.

This is the point I was just about to make, though I didn't know that about Bioshock, despite having completed it twice on PC and played the demo a fair few times on 360. Interesting!

I would actually argue it's not the keyboard that's the main advantage for PC gaming though, but the mouse. Analogue controllers are great for some stuff, but for first person controls and - crucially for Deus Ex - menus and inventory management, they're still miles behind the good ol' mouse. Either way though, the issue is one of control, not power.

It's also an issue of mindset though. People moan about console ports dumbing down games not because they think console gamers are stupid, but because the developers do. You may moan about people who equate console ports with dumbing down, but it's only because we've seen it before so many times, because the developers see console players as needing these dumb features - only they dress it up with pretty terms like "accessibility" or "lesser granularity."

So think before you go on a rant about how console games shouldn't necessarily lead to dumbing down - you're preaching to the converted.

Laokin
2nd Oct 2009, 01:56
This is the point I was just about to make, though I didn't know that about Bioshock, despite having completed it twice on PC and played the demo a fair few times on 360. Interesting!

I would actually argue it's not the keyboard that's the main advantage for PC gaming though, but the mouse. Analogue controllers are great for some stuff, but for first person controls and - crucially for Deus Ex - menus and inventory management, they're still miles behind the good ol' mouse. Either way though, the issue is one of control, not power.

It's also an issue of mindset though. People moan about console ports dumbing down games not because they think console gamers are stupid, but because the developers do. You may moan about people who equate console ports with dumbing down, but it's only because we've seen it before so many times, because the developers see console players as needing these dumb features - only they dress it up with pretty terms like "accessibility" or "lesser granularity."

So think before you go on a rant about how console games shouldn't necessarily lead to dumbing down - you're preaching to the converted.

Well said.

Co-Sign.

JCpies
3rd Oct 2009, 18:53
I hope someday i'm a games developer or concept artist... i'd love to make some totally random events in a game, i'd like to see a mix between Deus Ex and portal =D

lumpi
3rd Oct 2009, 21:38
Now we have the final piece:console development. Everyone is crying and whining about how developing for a console is just ensuring the game is going to fail...well consoles have come quite a long way since then and the PS3 and Xbox 360 rival if not beat out most computers in the graphics and processing departments. The main issue with IW and console development was the smaller levels and cut down graphics. This has become a non-issue as consoles are capable of so much more now, Elder Scrolls:Oblivion, Mass Effect, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, etc. Bioshock has AMAZING environments, Assassin's Creed is by far one of the most gorgeous games with some of the largest levels I have ever seen. Mass Effect was not only huge (both in size but also in scope) but on top of that had a great story line with one of the best dialog systems ever conceived.


*squeezes eyes to read the 4pt font*...

If you fall for the argument that console games design is solely a graphics issue, I think you are missing an important point: The gameplay.

Interface, controls, playing environments (distance from the screen, etc), driver/hardware issues and a history and taste dominated by Mario, Lara and Solid Snake (and a distinct lack of in-game saving options) all add to a very different environment to that of the PC. Console games play differently. I know it, because there are console games I adore for this specific gameplay style, games I would never want to see ported to the PC (because the outcome would turn out to be horrible).

Reducing the console issue to graphics technology and level-sizes alone belittles the issues that come with gaming ports across different systems. The "cross-platform" developed game does not exist, IMO. Even if the developers make themselves believe they are impartial, in the end, they have to start somewhere.

The solution? Acknowledging the strengths and weaknesses of each platform by adjusting both gameplay and interface design drastically. An interface for the PC with perfect mouse support and smaller, more readable font. Better formatted text and more aiming-help to aid the console crowd and their clumsy controller inputs. And more, more, more... the result of extensive playtests, feedback and studying of the strengths and styles of each platform.

As long as the PC and console version are the same with a quick keyboard-support slapped on the PC version, this won't work out. It just seems as if the PC audience, which worships the genre Deus Ex pioneered, seems to have been declared the scapegoats of the industry (probably because we only make up half the sales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioshock#Sales)). And I didn't even go into DRM, the horrible "Games for Windows Live" crap and SecuROM (and the fact that The Sims 3 had the most successful PC launch of any EA title in history (http://kotaku.com/5284965/the-sims-3-sells-14-million-during-week-one) despite dropping the ridiculous DRM from Maxis' previous title, Spore...).

I guess the biggest problems developers seem to have with the PC community is that we do not swallow everything they feed us. Especially not lies about how the "experience is consistent across every platform", when the PC version is treated like an unworthy, annoying after-though.

JCDentonMale
6th Oct 2009, 19:52
Interface, controls, playing environments (distance from the screen, etc), driver/hardware issues and a history and taste dominated by Mario, Lara and Solid Snake (and a distinct lack of in-game saving options) all add to a very different environment to that of the PC. Console games play differently. I know it, because there are console games I adore for this specific gameplay style, games I would never want to see ported to the PC (because the outcome would turn out to be horrible).

Reducing the console issue to graphics technology and level-sizes alone belittles the issues that come with gaming ports across different systems. The "cross-platform" developed game does not exist, IMO. Even if the developers make themselves believe they are impartial, in the end, they have to start somewhere.

The solution? Acknowledging the strengths and weaknesses of each platform by adjusting both gameplay and interface design drastically. An interface for the PC with perfect mouse support and smaller, more readable font. Better formatted text and more aiming-help to aid the console crowd and their clumsy controller inputs. And more, more, more... the result of extensive playtests, feedback and studying of the strengths and styles of each platform.

As long as the PC and console version are the same with a quick keyboard-support slapped on the PC version, this won't work out. It just seems as if the PC audience, which worships the genre Deus Ex pioneered, seems to have been declared the scapegoats of the industry (probably because we only make up half the sales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioshock#Sales)). And I didn't even go into DRM, the horrible "Games for Windows Live" crap and SecuROM (and the fact that The Sims 3 had the most successful PC launch of any EA title in history (http://kotaku.com/5284965/the-sims-3-sells-14-million-during-week-one) despite dropping the ridiculous DRM from Maxis' previous title, Spore...).

I guess the biggest problems developers seem to have with the PC community is that we do not swallow everything they feed us. Especially not lies about how the "experience is consistent across every platform", when the PC version is treated like an unworthy, annoying after-though.

Well said. And getting tired of this situation.

A game created only with money in mind will not be remembered as Deus Ex 1 is, simply because the developers will have $$$ in their head instead of original ideas. And the fact that Deux Ex 3 is developed for console is a very bad sign of what we will get. Seriously, can you imagine what kind of game Deux Ex 3 can be if it can be played on console ? An easy shooter for casual gamers ?

As said before, console and PC games don't play the same and public is different. As most game studios today, Eidos Montreal choose money over quality by developing console games ported to PC. Not mentioning all those dumb things such as "autoregen" which doesn't show that the industry has grown up as they tried to tell us, but that we will actually get an average dumbed down game using the name of "Deus Ex" , which is an insult to the first opus. Honestly I'm already disappointed when I think of that.

As a result of all this, I will certainly not buy the game when it will be released, if it is one day. I will first read some reviews carefully, then I will buy the game only if it doesn't betray its promises...

Galaxus
13th Oct 2009, 12:48
To reiterate what others may have said: Eidos should make a true successor to Deus Ex 1 which stays true to the original source material.

Detailed environments, high amount of interactivity, many open areas (open world if possible). Multiple ways to accomplish goals. Intriguing and deep storyline with plot twists, side-missions, high customization, don't dumb down the game play (make it easy to play, yet hard(er) to master). similar art direction to Deus Ex 1.