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View Full Version : A theory, a plot and the pudding.



Inane Mythos
10th Jan 2008, 12:58
Right guys. I've written out what I personally would like to see DX 3 come out as (For the most part). I've seen the threads flying about but here I've put all my thoughts on most things to be considered (Still will be expaning them over time) right in this thread.

Feel free to criticise, object and add in your own ideas. But don't confuse this with the other threads, this will mainly focus on gameplay mechanics and what not.

:: Breaker ::

Pre Deus Ex 1:

Augmentations have just been introduced to the world. Society is split into Mechs and non-Mechs, and thus splitting the line between the poor and the rich further.
Many see it as an impure technology (Not to say they are Templars) and others think of it as the way of the future.
Politicians are fighting for the tech, others are rooting against it.
Psycological and physical differences become an issue and so segragation happens, and soon society tears itself apart. Doctors, Mechanics, Armies etc. get affected and the split widens.

The super powers get involved more in the background and affect everyday life, taking the worlds problems as an advantage for themselves. World governments have disagreements and so true allies are non-existant.

Everyone is fighting for survival as the difference between "Right and Wrong" are no longer black and white.

A war over humanity has started.

--------------------------------------------------------

You play as an everyday citizen, and the choice of mechanical upgrades is open to you. But not without consequences. How you decide to upgrade yourself affects how world characters percieve you.

Upgrade your vision, nobody will notice.
Upgrade your arms, and the tech shows through, maybe restricting your access to a street or bar.
Body upgrades? Outright discrimination. You can't get into buildings or hotels in the slums, as people walk past you they might shout at you or attack you.

Each choice of action has two sides though. Mechs will help you if you are augmented and vice versa. There's more than two ways to go about something.

You may ask "but what if I want to do mission X, but because I'm so augmented, I can't?".
Well that's part of the consequence. There will always be a certain amount of missions on each side, but you will have to make that distinct choice. (Major Replay Value)

--------------------------------------------------------

Now concerning the actual augmentations (and weapons)

I like the idea of "Black market and legal Augmentations" from DX:IW, but let's expand on the idea.
Legal augs and BM Augs will be EXACTLY THE SAME. That is to say, you can buy a strength aug from both a BM retailer and legal retailer, but the difference will be in price/reliability. Legal augs will cost alot (Let's say 5000 credits each) and have a very long guarentee, whereas BM Augs will cost less (Say 2000 credits) but you have to maintain them. Everynow and then you may need to get repaired.

Now, I agree with some people that Augs should be useful and needed in some scenarios one way or the other, but there should be a limit. Balacnce is the key.

Weapon wise now, they should be split into two different categories. Rich and poor.
The Rich will have access to top-tech weaponry such as stun prods (Just an example) and the poor restricted to Pipes.
Each side will have vastly different guns like Snipers, Machine Guns and pistols (Like comparing todays AK-47 to the M40 and such), each with their pro's and cons. But that isnt to say you wont have access to another sides armoury of sorts.


:: Will expand more with time ::

gamer0004
10th Jan 2008, 14:06
Why a war of the rich against the poor? Not all rich people would want augs...

Inane Mythos
10th Jan 2008, 19:19
No, but only the richest would be able to afford it, therefore making the split of wealthy and not, widen. Instead of the government bluring the line, they are in fact doing the opposite by providing the rich with something others cannot simply afford.

Also, the rich would be discriminating againsrt each other, leading to one side (Either augs or non augs, but most likely the latter) being condemned and maybe landing in the slums.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Jan 2008, 22:19
I understand the rich and poor thing, it happens... :mad: so a realistic synopsis imo.

I really like your ideas, particularly the part where (depending upon your choice) you can only enter certain areas to achieve particular missions and how the rest of society treats you etc.
It means that you can play the game several times and experience new territory. :cool:

Good stuff, thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:

gamer0004
11th Jan 2008, 07:03
Well, you should be able to go to all the area's, but you'd not be allowed to go in certain buildings or so, but the guards wouldn't let you in so you'd have to fight them, the police would try to arrest you and the people living there wouldn't want to have anything to do with you, except a few who can use a guy like you for their dirty jobs.
It would be cool to be able to break in their homes and steal their money xD

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 08:53
Yeah...that was a great story! But appearently you never checked out that deus ex continuity bible since,well...about 90% of that post deus ex 1 crap you listed did in fact happen in the deus ex universe...and BEFORE Deus Ex 1 no less!

Deus Ex Continuity Bible Page Two:Defining Humanity (http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/april02/dxbible/dx2/index2.shtm)
(go ahead...take a gander.)

As far as implementing social division in gameplay...nice idea, but it'd quickly become too much of a pain to actually accomplish since it would be close to impossible just to figure out where to even begin. (that and the fact that there would be close to no reason to NOT choose augmentation or choose NOT to be rich or whatever given the choice.)

It's amazing what you can learn by looking into something even just a little bit before spurting stuff out,ain't life grand?

v.dog
11th Jan 2008, 10:17
AJ, why do you drop the font size of your posts? Not all of us have 20/20 vision (my augmentations are out of date, and I can't afford the upgrades yet).

gamer0004
11th Jan 2008, 10:27
I hope the devs don't listen to us fans anymore :P I think they can pull this off very well, but I'm afraid they'll try to implement all of the idea's posted on this forums, because they want to keep the fans happy xD

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 10:34
AJ, why do you drop the font size of your posts? Not all of us have 20/20 vision (my augmentations are out of date, and I can't afford the upgrades yet).

Because I like smaller fonts and vbulletin forums let me do it...so that's pretty much why. As far as your augmentations being out of date,I hear lenscrafters is pretty good, you should check it out.

Gamer...Do you honestly think the devs,with a set time frame for development are going to waste time reading bulletins when a company the size of eidos has people hired specifically for that kind of task? (PR people, Focus specialist, IT Community managers,etc.) I really don't think so, and if they are? then maybe they deserve to fail for wasting time.

Inane Mythos
11th Jan 2008, 12:12
Yeah...that was a great story! But appearently you never checked out that deus ex continuity bible since,well...about 90% of that post deus ex 1 crap you listed did in fact happen in the deus ex universe...and BEFORE Deus Ex 1 no less!

Deus Ex Continuity Bible Page Two:Defining Humanity (http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/april02/dxbible/dx2/index2.shtm)
(go ahead...take a gander.)

As far as implementing social division in gameplay...nice idea, but it'd quickly become too much of a pain to actually accomplish since it would be close to impossible just to figure out where to even begin. (that and the fact that there would be close to no reason to NOT choose augmentation or choose NOT to be rich or whatever given the choice.)

It's amazing what you can learn by looking into something even just a little bit before spurting stuff out,ain't life grand?

The ideas were meant to be based before Deus Ex, so sorry if you misunderstood.

But that aside, no need to be so cynical, they're just my personal ideas.
The choice to become rich or not may be bleak at the moment, but ideas are always getting made and I am a very busy man so I'm happy with people putting ideas forward, it makes for a better community. Maybe you should give it a go?

My whole point of putting Rich/Poor into the game would be for Psychological reasons, and the story would be the back bone of it all.

Carry on.

gamer0004
11th Jan 2008, 14:23
Because I like smaller fonts and vbulletin forums let me do it...so that's pretty much why. As far as your augmentations being out of date,I hear lenscrafters is pretty good, you should check it out.

Gamer...Do you honestly think the devs,with a set time frame for development are going to waste time reading bulletins when a company the size of eidos has people hired specifically for that kind of task? (PR people, Focus specialist, IT Community managers,etc.) I really don't think so, and if they are? then maybe they deserve to fail for wasting time.

Well, they do (they say so anyway). Read the interviews.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Jan 2008, 16:16
Well, you should be able to go to all the area's, but you'd not be allowed to go in certain buildings or so, but the guards wouldn't let you in so you'd have to fight them, the police would try to arrest you and the people living there wouldn't want to have anything to do with you, except a few who can use a guy like you for their dirty jobs.
It would be cool to be able to break in their homes and steal their money xD

I see, yeah. Sounds good, certain areas will be much more difficult to get to depending upon your position in society. Like it. :cool:


Oooh, the comment about breaking into peoples homes. I'm a huge Thief fan, so that part sounds very appealing, hehe! :D

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Jan 2008, 16:20
AJ, why do you drop the font size of your posts? Not all of us have 20/20 vision (my augmentations are out of date, and I can't afford the upgrades yet).

LOL, true, I got my first pair of reading glasses not so long ago.
I just went for a random eye test and had no idea how bad my eyes had become until I had the opportunity to view images with and without the lenses, lol! :eek:

When I put my glasses on, I feel like I've just had a new eye upgrade. Everything is so crystal clear and the colours more dynamic, hehe.
Makes you feel like a robot... :D

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 19:49
Well, they do (they say so anyway). Read the interviews.

Where pray tell are these "interviews"...I've seen maybe one interview on Deus Ex 3 and to the best of my recollection, there was no mention of developers reading any forums. Perhaps a link is in order?

gamer0004
11th Jan 2008, 20:22
Where pray tell are these "interviews"...I've seen maybe one interview on Deus Ex 3 and to the best of my recollection, there was no mention of developers reading any forums. Perhaps a link is in order?

I don't have all the links anymore, but google helps :P

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3164708
"I invite all the fans that are interested to participate on our forums. My producer and I wanted to get the forum activated at the start of pre-production, right now, not at the end of the game. We don't just want to see the reaction once the game's released. We have the forum up for pre-production so that the people that want to have accessibility to the developers have a chance to speak, to exchange with us directly. This forum is read by the whole team. It's not something that's not used. Every day I take at least 15 minutes to go through the discussions to see what's on the minds of the people we're making the game for."

AgnosticJive
11th Jan 2008, 21:40
Eidos Montreal general manager Stephane D'Astous and his Producer...yup, they just have development written all over them, they're not PR or HR people or Managers at all! Thank you for proving me wrong :D...oh wait...producers and managers just oversee the development process...not do any actual designing or coding or engineering...so I guess they can take the time to oh,I don't know...do their jobs? like I said? :scratch:

This interview also just proves another point I have previously made, they see why people liked Deus Ex 1 and why THE FANS (which doesn't include everyone amazingly enough!) saw Deus Ex:IW as an abysmal failure...so will everyone stop whining about the damn games and just let them do their jobs? Use your time for more productive and intelligent discussion, or joke around and have fun! (but warning: this will result in your threads being locked and the possibility of your account being banned by some nazi moderators!) The point being:stop telling people how to do their jobs since they obviously know how to do it alot better than you or I.

SageSavage
12th Jan 2008, 13:19
The point being:stop telling people how to do their jobs since they obviously know how to do it alot better than you or I.
So who's first? You?

AgnosticJive
12th Jan 2008, 20:18
So who's first? You?

I haven't and will not at any point openly call out eidos or the devs to implement ideas that I personally would like to see despite obvious objections from a various and differentiated fan base, in the hopes that for some reason they're going to stop doing their jobs working on the game so they can come read a bunch of immature wish-lists. Even if they did find a good idea, they would have to change it or modify it for legal reasons.

The issue is I've tried to open up various threads in both a joke fashion as well as an intelligently based discussion that resulted in open flame warfare because of differences in ideology (largely due to an abundant lack of information and knowledge on the subject.)

SageSavage
12th Jan 2008, 20:49
Even if they did find a good idea, they would have to change it or modify it for legal reasons.Wrong, I think. I am no expert but I am pretty sure it's no problem to implement anybodies suggestions unless someone puts a patent or a copyright on it.

The issue is I've tried to open up various threads in both a joke fashion as well as an intelligently based discussion that resulted in open flame warfare because of differences in ideology (largely due to an abundant lack of information and knowledge on the subject.) No, the issue is the hostile attitude of your posts, imo. I am not surprised when people get upset about them but it's indeed not very mature to continue such flame wars.

AgnosticJive
12th Jan 2008, 21:11
Wrong, I think. I am no expert but I am pretty sure it's no problem to implement anybodies suggestions unless someone puts a patent or a copyright on it.
No, the issue is the hostile attitude of your posts, imo. I am not surprised when people get upset about them but it's indeed not very mature to continue such flame wars.

Actually it is a common problem, even if a game decides to use mechanics they've found in other places they have to avoid talking about it or lie and say they came up with ideas on their own because it would be possible for someone to sue or at the very least get some kind of cease and desist claiming (with verified dating and IP logs) they were the original creators of the idea and even with a mediocre lawyer could cause trouble by proxy of delaying the release of the game. Therefore it's simpler for developers to simply just say "yeah,we have a lot of fans...but here's what we came up with..."

Now as far as the hostile attitude, if you'll notice it doesn't start off hostile and even then it's really not that hostile or aggressive (although I admit I am a bit demeaning and belittling towards people who just can't grasp the points I am making or the concepts being discussed.)

However this is getting way off topic, so let's end this here. If you would like to discuss this further feel free to PM me.

Back to the original topic, all that stuff (the social strife) as I have linked, is already part of Deus Ex history and even if this game were to be a prequel, I don't think they would have you choose to be normal or to be augmented since that would cause too much of a conflicting style of gameplay for both sides. The rich would have no need to buy weapons or mods since they can easily just hire private military security and pay them obscene amounts of money to do very little (kind of like modern day PMC's like blackwater, less red tape, more than triple the pay in a smaller amount of time.) As I've said before, it would be interesting to see the social divison, but letting the player choose just don't make much sense from any standpoint.

Also, as far as breaking into people's homes and such...they kinda did put that in Deus Ex already, the Paris level comes to mind...you can break into the bakery to steal Zyme for the dealer, break into the Weapons Dealers' Apartment, or his neighbors who are considering fleeing the country.

SageSavage
12th Jan 2008, 21:41
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines showed us that it is actually possible to implement social division (Nosferatu can't disguise as humans) and I am all for many explorable areas that aren't relevant for the storyline.

AgnosticJive
12th Jan 2008, 22:40
I wasn't saying that it would be difficult or hard to impliment social division, it's more in the fact that Inane is kinda pointing towards choosing to be rich or poor, or to be augmented or not...which would be difficult to implement since were a game to do that, they would have to figure out a way to balance gameplay but being a poor, un-augmented citizen would limit you to poorer social districts in addition to being severely outclassed against augmented people, rich people, or rich augmented people. The end result would be something akin to a completely unbalanced class system, which if you've ever played an mmorpg, you know results in a great deal of frustration in addition to constant patches in an effort to find the balanace.

Social division and strife would be good, and I think it'd be fun to have to figure out ways around cities (blending in a la Assassin's Creed, Sneaking around a la Thief, buying/faking papers or licenses a la various RPGs [such as KOTOR], running in guns blazing a la...well,every FPS game ever,etc.) but this would require that the cities be of a decent or grand scale much like the massive cities in Assassin's Creed, sure you couldn't go into just about any building but there was also no reasons for you to go inside...I also wouldn't mind being able to sell some of the crap that gets picked up along the lines of the game...it's kind of silly to have money and stuff to buy...but no way to sell items or increase your funds beyond hacking ATMs or stealing credits from careless people who for some reason leave their money lying around in public.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jan 2008, 23:08
AgnosticJive, you're seriously quite funny! :lol:

Like you, no hostile attitude intended in that statement. ;) :p

AgnosticJive
13th Jan 2008, 05:18
Well,if this is the case,I don't really qualify sarcasm as hostile, so...whatever.

Now so far as my comment on the hostility is concerned, apparently people have different ideas of what constitutes open hostility since I honestly don't consider anything I've said or done to be hostile...sarcastic? yes. Belittling? a wee bit. I just don't have much patience for those who don't do their homework or worse...do it incorrectly. It just gets me when people think that a poorly conceived idea with little forethought about the possible implications on what it would take and how long it would take to implement is a good idea, especially when faced against a more logical and realistic choice.

That paired with the fact that Eidos has never made a game (to my knowledge anyways) that involves a main character creation system that lets you choose those kinds of aspects...it just seems like a poorly thought out wish and nothing more.

But hey...apparently that's what flies on these forums, wish lists that never make it anywhere.

SageSavage
13th Jan 2008, 10:03
I don't see much hostility in AgnosticJive's last posts.


It just gets me when people think that a poorly conceived idea with little forethought about the possible implications on what it would take and how long it would take to implement is a good idea, especially when faced against a more logical and realistic choice.Well, I think that's because there's all kind of ideas flying around at the moment - some have been well thought out and some were just quickshots. That's because there are all kinds of people posting here. Some have the proper knowledge, some don't. Some focus on the details, some look at the big picture. Some like things you don't and some don't believe in things you do. I know that the DX community consists of many people who actually do a lot of forethought but don't expect that from everybody here.

I prefer forums full of wishlists and people activly trying to work out how their ideal game could look like over forums full of sarcasm. The only problem I see with so many wishes is that there's a little chance to confuse or scare the devs but I hope they do have a strong vision of the game so this won't happen. They can decide to ignore us whenever they like. All this ideas floating around have the potential to excessively raise the expectations of some people but if they are not able to handle that, they should better stay away from such forums. It is pretty much the only thing we can do here until the devs release more stuff to talk about. You did participate yourself several times, didn't you? If you don't like it simply stay away from these threads and don't indirectly demand from everybody to stop it. You may demand that for threads you've created but than you'll have to hope that a mod activley supports your restrictions - something I wouldn't want to introduce on my board.


That paired with the fact that Eidos has never made a game (to my knowledge anyways) that involves a main character creation system that lets you choose those kinds of aspects...it just seems like a poorly thought out wish and nothing more.Just because they never did something similar before doesn't mean they never will try it. Wether they do try it with DX3 or not remains to be seen but unless you have some uber-insider knowledge you are not in the position to declare that they won't.

wish lists that never make it anywhere.Maybe, maybe not. At least wishlists are far more constructive than your negative way of thinking.

MaxxQ1
13th Jan 2008, 18:01
Lighten up, Francis...

Most wish list threads are created simply to fill in the time between announcement of a game and release. No one realistically expects that their idea(s) gets used...the point is to have fun with it. Whether you do any research or not, or know the subject backwards and forwards is beside the point. If we didn't have idea threads to debate and discuss, we'd pretty much be bored to tears with constant rehashes of "What's your favorite JC line?", "I can't get on the boat", and "DX:IW sucks" threads. Oh, wait...we already have that:rasp:

People want to discuss possible ideas, whether they're good or not, and expect to have somewhat intelligent debate on the merits of said ideas. But some people come across as arrogant and try to shut things down simply because they don't agree. I remember one poster from the old Ion Storm board who was like that...eventually he took his marbles and left, because it got to the point where no matter what he posted, people got ticked off at him and his attitude. No matter that what he may have been saying made a good point, he was set upon anyway, because people were fed up with his previous snobbery.

Bottom line, have fun discussing possible ideas, and who cares if they get used or not. What's the point of a board like this if you can't do that? Most people love the original, and some love the second...it's only natural to voice one's expectations regarding a new entry without expecting someone to look down on them because maybe they don't know either of the other games that well, or haven't read "The Bible".

Even bad ideas or badly researched ideas can lead to a good, healthy discussion.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jan 2008, 22:55
^
Yes, in total agreement of that. :cool:

What I found funny and quite odd was the contradiction, i.e. someone would be quite happy to wax-lyrical with their ideas but yet criticise other peoples' ideas, opinions, thoughts... and all too-seriously as well.

It's fun to discuss ideas openly and one can easily skip past comments that are not of interest to you - no need to criticise people in any kind of personal way.

So, bring the discussion on! :D

Inane Mythos
14th Jan 2008, 02:04
Well,if this is the case,I don't really qualify sarcasm as hostile, so...whatever.

Now so far as my comment on the hostility is concerned, apparently people have different ideas of what constitutes open hostility since I honestly don't consider anything I've said or done to be hostile...sarcastic? yes. Belittling? a wee bit. I just don't have much patience for those who don't do their homework or worse...do it incorrectly. It just gets me when people think that a poorly conceived idea with little forethought about the possible implications on what it would take and how long it would take to implement is a good idea, especially when faced against a more logical and realistic choice.

That paired with the fact that Eidos has never made a game (to my knowledge anyways) that involves a main character creation system that lets you choose those kinds of aspects...it just seems like a poorly thought out wish and nothing more.

But hey...apparently that's what flies on these forums, wish lists that never make it anywhere.

Hey now, I just write ideas as a hobby and as a bit of fun. Yes I have not read "The Bible" but why should I need to? Maybe if I was working for Eidos but I don't. It's called Fan-fiction and you're going to see a lot of it from numerous members of this board, so please, get used to it.

:thumbsup: