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View Full Version : Guards limping. Damage questions/discussion.



Panopticon
8th Jan 2008, 15:04
I think it's about time that games implement more guards that limp when they are shot in the leg -- just like the days of Perfect Dark, that had one of the greatest guard animations/interactions I've ever seen and the game was released in the year 2000 for the Nintendo 64 (!) shesh.

It's so... Depressing to see guards shouting perfectly, and running around, rolling ,dodging etc. after you've shot them two times in the leg.

Also do you think there's going to be an improved and similar damage system to your character that was in DX1? It was a bit silly at times perhaps but with some improvements and fiddling around I think something semi-similar could be implemented.

Anyway feel free to post any thoughts/opinions/facts on this.

I just had to make a quick post to get this off my chest, it's something that constantly bothers me in games today... Limping should be in all games today. Not even something as over hyped as Crysis had something like it.

jordan_a
8th Jan 2008, 19:49
Good idea, I'll add it to the brainstorming list (Thread Cahiers de Doléances).

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jan 2008, 23:16
Yeah, this should be implemented.
The more realistic, the better. :cool:

ThatDeadDude
16th Jan 2008, 20:28
Hmm... yeah... seeing some pain on enemies really adds to the realism. Like in STALKER, when you badly injured some guys and they would curl up on the ground moaning in Russian (or Ukrainian? I don't know). That actually sort of freaked me out sometimes.

The only thing is that it would have to be done well. Otherwise you could just spray and pray in the direction of every enemy and they would become impotent.

G.A.Pster
28th Jan 2008, 00:43
Yeah, that’d be great.:thumbsup:

I’m all for it, it sucks when you shoot someone in the knees and they keep running they should go down.:rolleyes:
..................
And irt ThatDeadDude it’s Ukrainian.

jd10013
28th Jan 2008, 03:04
I like the way they did it in dx. Both the player, and NPC's took specific damage. Do enough damage to a guard, and he'd run away. shoot him in the arm (with high enough riffle skill) and he'd drop his gun. shoot him in the head, and he'd die instantly. sneak up behind him and whack him in the arse (never understood why it was there) with the baton or prod, and he'd go down instantly and quietly. and it also applied to the player. jump from too high up and you might live, but with two broken legs you couldn't walk. get shot in the arm(s) and you could hold your gun, but not aim as well. and get shot in the head, you instantly die also.

I also liked how they could run out of ammo. and they'd chase you around with their baton or knife. :rasp:

G.A.Pster
28th Jan 2008, 03:13
-I also liked how they could run out of ammo. and they'd chase you around with their baton or knife. :rasp:-

Yeah that was cool, it’s annoying in all other games that they can shoot at you all day and never run out of ammo.

RedFeather1975
28th Jan 2008, 04:04
Realistic reactions from NPCs is just as important as realistic environmental effects.
It would be cool if the NPCs had movement and behaviour modifiers that allowed them to react to events in realisitic ways. Not only limping when hurt, but whether they limp towards the player in desperation or limp away to escape.

Draco1979
5th Feb 2008, 19:56
Head shots rule!!!!!!!! I think if you are a supper agent like JC Denton was I think one of your skills should be maxed out so you can do that early on. On that note I think there should be a reward for head shots sneaking up and wacking some one. Maybe when you need to talk to a suspect that wont talk take out a knight and cut off some fingers or give him/her a jab in the leg or just break his leg.

Angel/0A
6th Feb 2008, 03:28
I remember being a little disappointed I couldn't "shoot the legs out from under" guards at first, because I remember blowing off my own legs plenty of times when I first had the demo of the game. I'm guessing it might've been difficult to code or something with the engine, but it would be awesome if they included it now. Maiming someone to the point they ran but not fully killing them was also fun. You could leave them alone and come back only for them to spot you and run again. :P Just imagine that if their legs were crippled. :D

pauldenton
9th Feb 2008, 04:50
limping etc would be great. i allway hated how after the guard had decided to runaway, you would catch up with him and he would do nothing!

if i were cornered like that id put out a masive malee attack - what have you to lose, but no they just acted dumb.

Lucifer
9th Feb 2008, 12:25
I am patient man

B0b_P@ge
9th Feb 2008, 23:03
limping etc would be great. i allway hated how after the guard had decided to runaway, you would catch up with him


I am patient man

Reading that comment just made my day. :lol:

Lo Bruto
10th Feb 2008, 01:15
I would like to see the Damage per body region again and it's consquences, like bad aiming for arm damage...

The limping Idea is great, it would add a great realism and immersion feeling in the game, though i guess they will not put this single feature into the game if it's not in the engine (it is?)

minus0ne
10th Feb 2008, 18:10
Head shots rule!!!!!!!! I think if you are a supper agent like JC Denton was I think one of your skills should be maxed out so you can do that early on. On that note I think there should be a reward for head shots sneaking up and wacking some one. Maybe when you need to talk to a suspect that wont talk take out a knight and cut off some fingers or give him/her a jab in the leg or just break his leg.
Rewards for headshots? There shouldn't be a reward for killing enemies, period. Luckily some of the Splinter Cell people are working on DX3, so here's hoping they'll adopt this.

It'd be great if hiding (unconscious) bodies actually had an effect this time around though. In DX guards only reacted to finding bodies in certain situations (ie when the enemy AI was 'artificially' heightened like when you have to speak with Dowd in Hell's Kitchen). Other than that, guards didn't react to finding bodies at all.

Lo Bruto
10th Feb 2008, 18:22
Rewards for headshots? There shouldn't be a reward for killing enemies, period. Luckily some of the Splinter Cell people are working on DX3, so here's hoping they'll adopt this.

This is your way of playing, no kills. But DX offers you the possibility of being a Rambo-like agent, so why reward only stealth players?

gamer0004
10th Feb 2008, 18:43
This is your way of playing, no kills. But DX offers you the possibility of being a Rambo-like agent, so why reward only stealth players?

Stealth players aren't rewarded either... And like I said before, DX isn't some crappy arcade game. You can't get it more unrealistic than "3 headshots and my aiming advances to 15".

Lo Bruto
10th Feb 2008, 18:56
I got your point now.

B0b_P@ge
11th Feb 2008, 03:45
The tear gas canisters where insanely critical for a 'melee-player' especially in areas crowed with guards or those crazy MJ12 raids, jeeeez, it would of been impossible beating Dx1 on realistic setting (playing as only melee) with 'em! I remember when I returned to NYC and I went to visit smuggler. When I left they sent 20 MJ12 soldiers after me, so I put a tear gas canister in the narrow wooden fence (remember the basketball court with that bum) and when they arrived, they all where coughing, etc, and I ran up to them fully power with melee nano-augmentations loaded and my dragons tooth sword and killed all 20 in under 1 minute...

Angel/0A
11th Feb 2008, 04:02
It'd be great if hiding (unconscious) bodies actually had an effect this time around though. In DX guards only reacted to finding bodies in certain situations (ie when the enemy AI was 'artificially' heightened like when you have to speak with Dowd in Hell's Kitchen). Other than that, guards didn't react to finding bodies at all.

That's a good point, the AI never really seemed to notice bodies, and when it did there was really no consequence. It'd also be nice if guards became "more aware" if an alarm was triggered. The one time I can remember a guard actually doing something different was on Liberty Island, the last two NSF guys before Leo had a different conversation if you happened to set off the alarm I believe.

SageSavage
11th Feb 2008, 06:29
Yeah, hiding bodies should be necessary!

gamer0004
11th Feb 2008, 14:56
The DX:IW alarm system shouldn't be used either because then the guards will know excactely where you are once the alarm is sound, which is a bit strange and very annoying.

pauldenton
12th Feb 2008, 08:36
not too keen on the hiding of bodies,

i played splinter cell in this way and that aspect bored me silly. though each to their own.

i will say however that splinter cell in general was solid with some great animation, graphics, voice acting and stealth tools. So i am very pleased some of the DX3 team have a splinter cell background.

they should have plenty to bring to the DX table.

SageSavage
12th Feb 2008, 15:11
But you have to agree that it's very strange when the remaining guards don't react at all to seeing the dead body of one of their colleagues. In reality they would be highly alarmed and the only way to prevent from that would be to hide the bodies from them. Maybe it's not always fun but it really adds to the overall perception as credible game world and also adds some extra-difficutly to consider before you attack someone.

pauldenton
12th Feb 2008, 15:44
fox, i do agree, but as said i found it boring and repetetive.
it felt like i was being made to constantly take the garbage out rather than playing a fun game. but then splinter cell did make it an awefully slow process.

Lo Bruto
12th Feb 2008, 16:09
Kill the guard, but don't hide it. Just hit the body with the crowbar so many times that it'll explode, leaving a mess of human meat pieces.

Then the another guard come and see this thing... and he'll be scared as hell. :lol:

RiscOS
12th Feb 2008, 16:56
Would it be possible to have the injured person defend themself as best they could, like lay on the floor and fire back a few shots while being dragged to cover by the other members of his section?
It would be nice to see close to human behaviour in AI subjects rather than than a bunch of single entities. As I have said before FEAR produced the best squad based tactics i have seen so far.

IcarusIsLookingForYou
3rd Mar 2008, 06:31
As long as there are NO HEALTH BARS for the enemies I'll be satisfied. I can still remember playing IW for the first time, creeping up behind an enemy with my baton, thinking I'm all slick, expecting a silent takedown, then whacking him in the back of the head only to see a portion of his health bar get drained. I nearly turned off the game. Stealth gameplay was one of DX's greatest strengths. Anything the devs can do with the enemy AI to emphasize this would be beneficial.

Azrepheal
3rd Mar 2008, 16:26
I am for hiding bodies. Just for the realism - if you were a guard in a secret base, and on a random patrol came across another guard with a tonne of bullet holes in his back, youd hit the alarms, not carry on your way. Its not like it took much effort to pick up a guard and drag him into a grate.

Also - blood trails. Replaying DX, I shot a guard in the statue of liberty, and only knew which stairway he'd gone up because there was blood leading up it (albeit only a small amount) This would be a nice effect in DX3 - shoot a guard enough and he'll leave a trail of blood, and same for your character (Guard: I think he went this way!) - more realistic than them just knowing where you are, after all.

SageSavage
3rd Mar 2008, 16:41
Also - blood trails. Replaying DX, I shot a guard in the statue of liberty, and only knew which stairway he'd gone up because there was blood leading up it (albeit only a small amount) This would be a nice effect in DX3 - shoot a guard enough and he'll leave a trail of blood, and same for your character (Guard: I think he went this way!) - more realistic than them just knowing where you are, after all.
So you're going to have this inflatable dishmop for secret agents with you all the time? I mean wouldn't it be a little bit pointless to hide the bodies when the bloodtrails lead the guards directly to where you've left them? Why would all that blood be less supicious to the guards in any way?

Now this is exactly what I mean... I think it's a good idea that you have to hide the bodies and that you have to search them for items they may have brought with them. I think it would ruin the the flow if you'd have to search the ground for items they may have dropped, hide their bodies, quickly clean up the blood trails and then finally search the body again for items they may have carried with them. In this case I'd clearly prefer the more userfriendly way. A hybrid game like DX is all about trade offs, right?

Azrepheal
3rd Mar 2008, 16:50
Why would all that blood be less supicious to the guards in any way?

Hey, I never said the quards should be geniuses :rasp: But, touche. I was more talking about if you stun / baton a guard, and then move them. The blood trail technically works in DX1 anyway (I followed the guard who bled on the floor), implimenting it for the players character, I thought, would be a nice touch. (Hide quickly, use a medkit to stop the bleeding and then move before they follow the trail)

newhenpal
4th Mar 2008, 02:25
Glad to know I'm not the only one who has thought of this, I played Deus Ex and Perfect Dark when they both came out and seeing as how they were both set around the same dystopian time, I saw alot of similarites. However, after thinking about it for a while, limping/'hurt' animations wouldn't really work in Deus Ex, the way Perfect Dark was designed, it allowed for the guards to flinch and still have a challenge.

But yes, the guard AI in PD is very advanced, even to this day. It's the only game I can think of where you can disarm a guard and have his arms go up telling you that 'I was only doing my job' and turning around only to have him take out a pistol and start firing.

IcarusIsLookingForYou
4th Mar 2008, 02:40
But yes, the guard AI in PD is very advanced, even to this day. It's the only game I can think of where you can disarm a guard and have his arms go up telling you that 'I was only doing my job' and turning around only to have him take out a pistol and start firing.

Agreed. Too bad the second one was utter chud. I unloaded that turd a week after I bought it. What the hell is up with sequels these days?

RepulsiveRan
16th Apr 2008, 04:43
I've seen a lot of posts about the enemys not limping or have the simple 20 second time out alert status in the ai code however an element of dx1 that I enjoyed was the location damage on the player, loosing a leg or more realisticly having one shot to hell limited mobility and jumping ability. I would like to see this return however perhaps with a more intense effect and traq darts after lets say the 3rd injection actually subdued you to almost passing out (darkness unable to fire accurately,example in CoD4 flashbang effect). Also lets say 10-1 hp value for a certain body part= bleeding to 1 hp and disabled use of that limb or to a great degree becuz complete uselessness would result in unable to fire a weapon..or have the player switch hands with a -25% accuracy no Rocket Launcher or Heavy MGs until medical attention is acquired. Also keep the Cone of Fire system because without it's just like having perfect accuracy which just isn't enjoyable imo unless I'm sighting a collapseable bi-pod sniper rifle. Oh one more thing for those whiners of Assault rilfe is weak.....LEARN TO USE A WEAPON AND QUIT PUSHING DAISIES YOU NOOBS..A GOOD BURST HEADSHOT IS DEATH FROM ALMOST ANY ANGLE ON NYC MAPS AND CATACOMBS, 6 guards with one clip of ammo on realistic mode. Commandos and MIB/MJ-12 have power heavy armor and cybernetics. Keep blood trails..evenf rom the player but only if seriously wounded..guards can see this and track you down, use night vision to see easier, flashlights etc. etc. I love Tom Clancy's Raindow and Splinter Cell series. woot 10/10, btw for those who didnt know Ion Storm developed Deus Ex. Eidos only published it. Just some thoughts. :cool: Peace.

Voltaire
16th Apr 2008, 15:20
Limping: I'm all for it. It wouldn't be hard at all, it was done pretty simply in Soldier of Fortune II. In SoFII in fact, you could disarm guards by shooting specific target zones on arms/hands. This was implemented slightly in DX1 (though not frequently at all).

Blood trails: YES! In terms of hiding bodies, lack of blood trails would be a real incentive to play non-lethal (if unconcious corpses don't leave trails), but casual killers would still gain some of the benefit (blood trails are harder to spot in seemingly dimly lit compounds and corridors than a dead body is).

The "rewards" for stealthy non-lethal approaches should be higher than just plain stealthy but lethal gameplay (not numerically. Just in terms of chance of detection)...

Fen
16th Apr 2008, 15:23
Limping: I'm all for it. It wouldn't be hard at all, it was done pretty simply in Soldier of Fortune II. In SoFII in fact, you could disarm guards by shooting specific target zones on arms/hands. This was implemented slightly in DX1 (though not frequently at all).

Blood trails: YES! In terms of hiding bodies, lack of blood trails would be a real incentive to play non-lethal (if unconcious corpses don't leave trails), but casual killers would still gain some of the benefit (blood trails are harder to spot in seemingly dimly lit compounds and corridors than a dead body is).

The "rewards" for stealthy non-lethal approaches should be higher than just plain stealthy but lethal gameplay (not numerically. Just in terms of chance of detection)...

I like that idea. Knocking someone out unconcious wouldnt leave any blood, while blowing their head off their torso would. For someone who is trying a stealthy infiltration, this is something they would be forced to consider. Obviously, non-leathal takedowns would be tougher to pull off than lethal ones.

Gary_Savage
16th Apr 2008, 19:09
Well, what about using bottles of water (we could carry bottle of alcohol in DX1) to wash away blood trails, the way we could have used water arrows, in Thief1? That is, if (at the VERY end) resources allow.

Voltaire
16th Apr 2008, 19:33
Well, what about using bottles of water (we could carry bottle of alcohol in DX1) to wash away blood trails, the way we could have used water arrows, in Thief1? That is, if (at the VERY end) resources allow.

Why not go one further? If you've seen the recent tech demos for the new "Alone In The Dark" game (an awesome series, pretty old skool), you'll have seen the idea of blood bags, and leaving trails/pools of blood to attract certain enemies. If a guard were to follow trails of the red stuff, he could be led into traps...

gamer0004
17th Apr 2008, 15:48
Well, what about using bottles of water (we could carry bottle of alcohol in DX1) to wash away blood trails, the way we could have used water arrows, in Thief1? That is, if (at the VERY end) resources allow.

I'd only want bloodtrails to make a difference if you can wash them away or something like that. I can't stand it when things like blood trails can be very dangerous for you but you can't even wash it away, while IRL that'd be no problem.

Ghostdog
17th Apr 2008, 16:44
I just hope Eidos Montreal get enough time to implement some of the cool ideas mentioned here. At the very least the system for body area damage should be brought back - that was one of my favourite features.

Larington
17th Apr 2008, 19:56
The No One Lives Forever games (Or was it just the sequel?) had bottles of evidence remover that could 'remove' evidence in the form of a dead body. Then again, having heard the reaction of one lady to an on screen use of a chemical that did exactly that in the most recent AvP film that might not be so great an idea on whole bodies... But evidence like blood trails, sure.

Blade_hunter
17th Apr 2008, 21:00
This idea of localized damages is present in soldier of fortune series
In DX 1 there are in the game, but SOF have a better system when you shoot at the guard leg he's scream and stop fire on you during a time, sometimes they continue to shot you. In this game the gore and locational damage is a great system
(Ok SOF 3 sounds to be a piece of crap as I read in the critics ..... but the previous games are good; I preferred the first, the sequel is not so fun as the first game).
When the NPC's are hit in DX they throw some blood trails.
And if we are in snow locations you and your enemies make some paces trails and if you walk in a blood or water pool the NPC's have the same thing.
the difficuly is more to make it realistic or not because some older games used this and I don't know if the players like the idea of when you are wlaking in a water pool you make some trails ....

Voltaire
23rd Apr 2008, 14:30
I'm really keen on the whole limping/blood trail idea, but how about even more stuff...

In the last 2 Jedi Knight games, protagonists have been able disarm an enemy, at which point they would either run away or, if they were backed into a corner, surrender. What do people think of that? Maybe even go one more, and be able to collect information from "defeated" enemy guards e.g. the code for x is 4321. It would mean even more ways to play the game, and less reliance on datacubes.

[On the issue of data-cubes... what? When have you ever left around information that is worth more than your life on a scrap of paper. "By the way Dave, the code to the doomsday machine is 'turkeyleg'. Don't forget to buy eggs. Love mum" It just got kinda old after a while in DX1, I didn't thnk it was at all realistic to bring down Area51 by reading post-its...]

serene_chaos
23rd Apr 2008, 15:31
it felt like i was being made to constantly take the garbage out rather than playing a fun game.

if you wanna make it fun, leave the bodies where they are, back yourself into a corner, and let the guards come!:nut:

[Edit: sorry to quote an old post. didn't see the 2nd page]

eviljedi
11th May 2008, 11:26
I'm going to voice a contrary opinion here and say that I'm not much interested in location specific damage. I liked that melee attacks did more damage when attacking from behind, and yes head shots ruled, but I'd rather the developers didn't waste time on other stuff like limping enemies. I just replayed DX1 and honestly I'd say 90% of my kills were one-shots. If I hit someone in the legs its because I was waiting for recoil to point the gun up to their head, not because I wanted the guy to hobble around or whatever.

Gary_Savage
12th May 2008, 01:14
While most of my kills are one shot kills, too, and while I also like it that a melee attack from behind does more damage, I would still like to see a lot of area specific damage. This would be good when enemies run, after being injured by nearby explosions (like the NSF generator level, in DX1). Also, if I see a large number of enemies clustered in one location, and I don't have an explosive powerful enough to take them all out in one go (or I am too close for such a weapon), then I would like to injure them with a less powerful weapon, and then take out the less capable enemies; that would add more variety to my playstyle. Yeah, despite being a stealth player, I sometimes do like to hit with a vengeance, like at Area 51 (of DX1), where I used a LAW in the hanger.

DXeXodus
12th May 2008, 05:44
Locational damage is very important. It allows for a much more interesting and realistic play dynamic. If DX1 could do it then DX3 should be able to do it... and do it better.

Therefore, with locational damage things such as limping can be incorporated nicely. This will be a great feature to actually see the effect of your attack on the enemy.

So I say yes to locational damage and limping, crawling enemies. And yes, if you injure them heavily they should lie on the floor and take a few pot shots at you before they die... Just like last stand in COD4 :) ahh.... thats fun

Chemix
12th May 2008, 08:50
I like to see some enemies surrender, if for example you have a GEP gun (or equivalent) on them. Nobody is going to try and take down someone in body armor with a rocket launcher if all they have is a pistol or shotgun (short of the rocketeer being unaware of their presence).

serene_chaos
12th May 2008, 14:28
yes, surrendering is a good idea. it would also add to the point that Mad Red mentioned in the immersion thread, about sympathising with different factions. if your enemies surrender occasionally, and plead for their life, and tell you they have a daughter in kindergarten, you might come to think of the nameless NPCs more as real people and less as... nameless NPCs.

I was also thinking about how friendlies react when you shoot them. the animations for this were done awesomely in halo 1 (not so much 2, and i havnt played 3), when you shoot your Marines they stagger backwards, trying to stand, holding an arm out towards you, partly to keep their balance and partly as a plea to stop. good times.

Also, how do AIs interact say, if youre spraying automatic fire into a dense crowd of NPCs?

Voltaire
12th May 2008, 16:59
I disagree about immediate surrender. After a bit of a beating maybe, or being disarmed, fine, but as a guard, what situation would you not fancy your chances against a GEP gun for example? Long distance there's always the chance to dodge, short distance and that's suicide for thge rocketeer.

It would ruin the game dynamic to have instant surrenders.

Vodka0850
12th May 2008, 17:46
It would be cool if the guards helped each other out more, like dragging away wounded comrades (good idea to the person who I forgot who said that). The guards being able to run out of ammo would be pretty cool too, and even cooler if his buddy could toss him and extra clip if asked. One thing that I would personally liked removed though is the whole conversation a guard will have with himself if he hears a noise like in IW. Maybe it's just me, but I felt they talked too much, overstepping the whole idea which is to warn the player that they are in trouble.

Something else I think would be cool would be instead of just giving harder enemies more health, or just giving all the enemies more health on a higher difficulty, you instead make the AI fight better. Low-level street thugs would fight rather stupidly, more along the lines of just running and gunning, not utilizing any cover effectively, not really reacting too well with any of their teammates, and perhaps making them more prone to run away. Trained soldiers on the other hand would actually fight like soldiers, by helping each other and coordinating attacks (as best can be done of course, nothing is going to be perfect). And as for harder enemies, you could probably make them a bit smarter, as well as give them giant gobs of health, being that most of the later enemies in both games are either modified or walking in giant hulks of battle armor. These enemies tend to be a little surreal anyways (not that there is anything wrong with that, it adds something to the games).

Chemix
12th May 2008, 19:58
After a bit of a beating? when someone has a gun on you, furthermore possibly a gep gun, and you're not prepared, not surrendering is suicide unless you're directly next to them and have matrix like dodge abilities.

Voltaire
12th May 2008, 20:37
All I'm saying is that the game would lose charm if when you turned up, enemies laid down their weapons and complained: "I didn't think he'd have a gun".

jcp28
12th May 2008, 21:18
It One thing that I would personally liked removed though is the whole conversation a guard will have with himself if he hears a noise like in IW. Maybe it's just me, but I felt they talked too much, overstepping the whole idea which is to warn the player that they are in trouble.



That's just a way to alert you to the fact that there is a hgiher alert level for the enemies possibly seeing or hearing you(sorry, I 'm hurried right now). But what would they replace it with? Some high-tech device that can detect alertness from living creatures in the area? That might work, but it would have to be turned off when you're in a friendly area.

Chemix
12th May 2008, 21:58
All I'm saying is that the game would lose charm if when you turned up, enemies laid down their weapons and complained: "I didn't think he'd have a gun".

Well when you put a gun to a character's back, they should react differently than when you walk up infront of them ofcourse.

Vodka0850
13th May 2008, 01:37
I don't mind the guards saying something like "what was that" or anything, just as long as they don't go too far. But that's just my thoughts, and I do have weird tastes, lol.

And the guards shouldn't surrender just like that, but maybe a few do because they are just dumb (like just a few early bad guys or just a random guy on the street), or b/c your gun is just bigger then theirs, and of course the sneaking up on them thing. But having most of the guards surrender would just kill the game, you wouldn't even need to have ammo really in order to take them out, and that's not what I would want.

Chemix
13th May 2008, 01:59
I always like a non lethal melee option, like a choke hold or some such

serene_chaos
13th May 2008, 09:21
by surrendering im thinking of, if you murder all of the guards in an area (i'm thinking of the NSF Airbase, for some reason) except one, the last one will get scared, and run around frantically seeing all his dead comrades with bullet holes in the back of their heads. THAT guy should surrender (occasionally), but maybe not the rest.

gamer0004
13th May 2008, 13:54
When you suddenly step in front of a guard with your pistol to his chest while his weapon is still holstered, then yes, he should surrender. So it would become a fifth (?) tactic (killing everyone, taking everyone out non-leathally, sneaking, hacking + lockpicking and multitools, and then trying to get people to surrender). I think that especially security people will soon surrender, as there is no moral cause for them to die for.
On the other hand, it shouldn't be easy. If you'd be 2 feet away and the guard could jump behind cover and fight back, he should try that of course.

Voltaire
13th May 2008, 15:17
OK, a forced surrender sounds feasible. Especially for lower order troops, terrorist goons etc. In fact, in terms of the idea of "better AI" being bandied about, this could differentiate between a guard and a sergeant.

BRAINWAVE:
Lots more emphasis on military roles for enemies. Teams of 6 or seven have a sergeant/senior officer/squad leader, who has something of a rallying effect when it comes to the troops morale. If he dies, increased chance of team running off/giving up. Thoughts?

Chemix
13th May 2008, 19:46
I like it, military units are indeed deployed in teams or squads.

Helios_Denton66
14th May 2008, 00:40
I think that patrols should have scouts which run back to the main group to tell them about you. Also, on higher difficulty levels, I think the ai should use stealth. Imagine if you dont see anybody, then you get hit by a baton on the back.:lol:

LUCID-X
14th May 2008, 00:48
Should have it so that if you back a guy into a corner and he realises there is nothing he can do, he can like, start crying and show pictures of his family. I you have two guys backed into a corner they can say stuff to his mate like "well..I guess this is it...nice knowing you buddy, here's a paper bag to put over your head...its the least I can do".

Honestly, some of these ideas, though they would be cool, wouldn't create enough immersion for the amount of work that would go into them. The more time you have to spent on specific little, almost one off events, that after seeing them once or twice lose there novelty, the less time can be spent on other things. They may decide to add small details that really draw you into the game, but I would rather them be unexpected and almost shock me, rather than, be something that happened every so often. Maybe not even come across them till I have already played through the game a few times.

I reckon the developers should take notes, but use their own imagination when it comes to things like that. Maybe have stuff that if you rush through the game you never notice, but if you take the time, these small events make you begin to question what you are doing. Even though its just a game, make you feel like you have just done something terrible, or on the other side of the coin, really made a difference.

You just taken out a couple guys guarding some inner city underground facility, you run passed them "nothing left to do here". Next time you go passed there, you hang back for a second and hear a groan. You look back and see one of the guards look over at his mate. "I'm so sorry buddy...I'm so sorry...". Even if you didn't see him look over, and just heard his voice. Sometimes even people as guilty as sin regret when things they have done when they are facing death. Next time you go past you still shoot them, waiting to hear if he says it again, but this time there is only silence. You actually feel bad because of it. You linger a second hoping to hear him, but there is still no sound. Next time you decide to use a non-lethal approach.

This may not be a good example, but I think you get the idea. Though games are getting to the point where they can simulate almost anything, often less is more. If done intelligently, even simple things could have a bigger effect than some complicated behavioral system. Much like the original game, if you get the player far enough into the game, you can just suggest something with minimal, and the player will fill in all the blanks. You wouldn't care if it wasn't noticed straight away, but it would reward people who get into the game. Based on the trailer and even the concept picture they have revealed so far, they are using this kind of technique to great effect.

I really think Eidos should make a deal with Natural Motion and get hold of Morpheme to plug into their game engine, as part of their work to upgrade the Crystal Dynamics Engine. They could use it to help make characters interactions and reactions more realistic and believable without having to animate countless canned animations. You cause a guy to fall off an edge, and he grips on, hanging there with one arm. You have the chance to help him up, or leave him to fall. NPCs would react more realistic to being shot, or having things fall on them. They could be made to hold their chest if they get hit there, or limp if they have been hit in the leg. It would help them achieve many of the things being mentioned here.

In real life, a soldier is taught never to follow blood trails. If you want realism, soldiers in the game shouldn't also. If they are not very well trained, or inexperienced it may be more possible, but hey.

jcp28
14th May 2008, 01:35
Great ideas, though there would be some difficulty in implementing them correctly.

And if military units are deployed in teams or squads, then it's an example of something that should be dictated by area. For example, if we visit the NSF rising in the Northwest, then we might end up seeing large groups of soldiers in the mountains and stuff. But I think that the game will be from the viewpoint of a government agent of some sort anyway, so we'll just see how that works. The NSF here COULD be more organized than the guys you come across in New York, but that might depend on what it says in DX about the NSF's history(I remember they formed because of some bill banning firearms, but I'm unsure how successful they were) They still wouldn't be as tough as regular soldiers, though.

DXeXodus
14th May 2008, 04:33
I really think Eidos should make a deal with Natural Motion and get hold of Morpheme to plug into their game engine, as part of their work to upgrade the Crystal Dynamics Engine. They could use it to help make characters interactions and reactions more realistic and believable without having to animate countless canned animations.

I believe that is what alot of developers are doing with the Euphoria tools. Just look at Star Wars - Force unleashed. Would be a really nice touch and would save alot of time whilst adding to the realism. Win Win situation IMO

serene_chaos
14th May 2008, 05:48
another brainwave: i want to be able to use my gun to intimidate people in conversation. i want it to become an interrogation tool, so i want people to get frightened and talk faster and tell me more if i hold a gun to their head, or thier loved one's head.
this would also open the door to taking enemies hostage.

gamer0004
14th May 2008, 14:22
I want enemies to notice it when suddenly a door has been opened while they didn't hear anybody. And I want them to notice that I'm opening a door anyway. And I don't want to hear ME whe I'm walking around (without them seeing me, of course), where seconds ago had walked an enemy. How would they know it's me all of a sudden?
And I want people walking around. Like a commander who checks how's everything going. And he should notice it if people are missing. And the rest should notice if he was missing.

Ghostdog
15th May 2008, 09:48
That does sound pretty cool, but I think the problem in making the game that advanced would be in balancing it - it could take forever!

Blade_hunter
5th Jul 2008, 00:03
The surrendering idea sounds good but it depends how this thing is applied in the game.


An enemy attitude will change in function to events but what things can forces this enemy to surrender ?
- We disarm the enemy and he prefers to stay alive, he surrenders instead of run away because we can kill him
- We defeat his boss, and the troops becomes demoralized by this event and surrender.
- We defeat too much allies on their side and if we look to be stronger than a group they will surrender.

But we can threaten them or maybe want to negotiate with them
For the threat we can use allies, or say we have a big army and they have no escape, or use a laser painter, to demonstrate they can be killed with ease

For the negotiation we can use phones, speak at a distance with some registered sentences, this kind of sentences can be used to call anyone from a distance If the NPC respond to the call we can pursue the conversation with the NPC's and know what they want, and choose the right sentence

For the fact we can call a guy at a distance we can introduce the fact when he see us, the NPC will run away and go to an inaccessible location or run too fast or if we want to catch him he prefers to make a suicide than be catch by us.

When in the surrendering options we accomplish the required things to have a surrender the surrendering isn't automatic and the enemies can continue to fight or they can sound the alarm or want to prevent his allies of our presence.


If we won't surrendering we can use the fact we can capture an NPC !
How ?
By knocking them or use special device like a web thrower or something like this, and tie them with handcuffs or a cord
If we disarm them they can run or stay.
When they stay we can tie them
If they run away we must knock them before tie them (thats logic after all)

If we knock them and don't tie them they will wake up and they can be a threat again

When the NPC is tied we can move them and hide them because if we won't do that and an ally of the tied NPC can detach them and the NPC can become again a threat against us and more if it finds a weapon ...
When an NPC is captured we can withdraw its equipment, and maybe its suit to appears like it if we add the disguise.

For the capture we can find this in commandos series, for the surrender I found it in the FPS called Judge dread vs Judge death, It's not a very good FPS but the fact we can force the enemy to surrender and put them the handcuffs was amazing in the first time, but after in the game we enemies never surrender, and this rare feature were useless near the end of the game.
I preferred the commandos capture system
Knock and tie
I loved to use my enemy against an other enemy to focus their view in the wanted location, throw the cigs to disturb my enemy and reduce its field of view, throw gravels to attract an enemy into a trap hidden from other soldiers.


Many games have some threaten / surrender / capture systems but I want to know if these or one of these can be interesting in DX, but I don't want to add one of theses features if they will throw the core of the original game, or if they implementation make that ....

About the damage localization we can add some things


With a lethal weapon

Head Instant kill with a big scream
Neck Instant kill but no scream (he dies and vomits some blood)
Torso must fire some shots before kill
Hands disarm, the enemy should scream
Legs the NPC can't run fast or if the two legs are seriously damaged this can interfere with the enemy movement, the enemy should scream



With a non lethal weapon

Head fast kill if it's poison / instant knock if we do it from the rear/ some shots if we do it from the front
The neck if it's a dart like weapon the NPC dies, if we shot with a baton, hands from the rear the NPC is knocked / some weapons can kill if we shot the neck
Torso we can be knocked with several shots/ or kill if we use a poison weapon
Hands we can make the arms useless if we use a non poison weapon or a tranquilizer weapon, ice, etc/with a poison weapon the arm becomes useless and after the NPC can be killed.
Legs it's the same as the hands.

I know the fact we can neutralize without killing is one of the DX spirit (I remember always when Paul say's
"JC, You killed too much people this time on liberty island"
And neutralize without kill can give a great reason to find some prisoners in our HQ

I don't remember if my sentence is correct

Some things like these features is an interactivity issue ...

Kevyne-Shandris
5th Jul 2008, 01:47
Yes, Commandos had an excellent way of solving how to get around those NASTY patrols without alarming others (a method you won't see much, when the game later put a time clock in the game to hurry you up. Which meant more running n' gunning -- and the speed game to try to finish the fastest).

But will this so-called "casual" gamer have the patience to negotiate or the want to have the enemy just surrender (imagine playing WoW and the end boss just looks at your party and says, "game over, I quit!". Could the average DX gamer tolerate it, even one playing in stealth or sneak mode?).

For me I'd love it (but I also play high patience games, where speed isn't the solution, solving the problem is how to win). The more real life ability to demoralize your opposing force with talk/propaganda would be an interesting twist -- even better if you can do it over time, to slowing bleed resistence, so it becomes easier and easier to talk the enemy out to surrender. Methods like if they're hungry, offer food; if they're tired of being under appreciated [so overheard by guards!], say there's more appreciation of their abilities on your side (all these can be done with a menu of choices, and the player has to match them for the situation. Wrong tack, and the enemy could laugh you off as a joke; become even more resistent; and/or more determined to make you their meatpuppet). It's basically a taunt system.

It's a lot more scripting to do this, but the immersion affect for those seeking more tactical ways to achieve objectives, it would be outstanding feature.

Blade_hunter
5th Jul 2008, 13:56
To make theses features fun, we must balance them, and keep the fact all things are a challenge.

A fight against a group, must be hard, but I don't think the solution is to make the difference between our HP and the NPC HP or not exacly

For example an untrained soldier will be more easy to fight than a trained soldier...
Some enemies can be suicidal and ready to do everything to kill us.

For example, the MIB or the MJ12 commandos never surrender, and some enemies can be a trap like the MIB for example, the robots never surrender too.

The only NPC's that can surrender they must be human or with an human mind if they are nano augmented, mech augmented or what ever, if a robotic AI have a sort of survival instincts they can surrender.
We can push the thing much far, the NPC can feign its surrendering and attack us at the best moment to do it, they can use their team mates to make a good counter attack.
This fact force us to be cautious and an enemy that say he's surrender stay often dangerous.

Vicious enemies adds some adrenalin in the game even if they surrender.
feign the death is a feature from Unreal games, the monster can feign their death and when we look at an other location they wake up and attack us by surprise
But I don't want the DX 2 feature and know the health of my enemies, if we add the feign death feature for our enemies and maybe ourself, this kind of informations must be displayed if we use a biomod like DX 1.

DX will mixes different gameplays not only to make a rich game, but to allow different kind of players to win at their manner on each situation.

The fact we can avoid the soldiers and stay stealth, use some alternate ways makes the infiltration possible and avoid the combat.
The combat can be deadly for us if we don't have an advantageous position and not the correct weaponry.
In DX we can avoid, knock and kill, but in DX the only differences between knock and kill, was the fact we can't se the same description, cadaver for a died NPC or unconscious but the rest is the same. for the MIB when they die they explode, but when they knocked they don't explode and we can pickup some equipment.
but thats all.

I agree the fact we can introduce the fact we can threaten / negociate with our enemies was a sort of taunt system, but at the difference the enemies can have a good panel of reactions.
They can obey
They can feign
They can disobey
theses reactions are a sort of shorten and basic list.
The taunt / orders system are often used for team mates for orders, and the taunt is for enemies.
AI tweaks are hard to do and the hardest thing is the AI must work correctly.
More the AI have things to manage more it's difficult to do a correct AI.
But I want give one of my opinion about the AI, because some things can be confuse in mind of players.
An AI that can do some tactics, like prepare traps, and use the environment to it's advantage, is a better AI than an AI that can kill us with one shot.

To make the soldiers like any enemy interesting to fight we can make the next things
All enemies have different running speeds because each persons can't run at the same speed.
We can use different heath but we can get the same heath of an NPC if the NPC is the same kind of us. the NPCs if they are human and we are human too we must have the same range between the higher and lower HP
If our lower HP is 80hp and higher is 150hp the enemies can be on this range.
The equipment and suits can add more resistance against a certain kind of weapons, or make them invulnerable against a damage type, if we see an enemy with an Hazmat electrical weapons are useless against this kind of enemies, and hazard zones are useless against them.
Their equipment aren't only one ranged weapon and one melee weapon most NPC's in DX have only this kind of equipment. the fact they can run out of ammo was a great thing and this adds some realism in the game, i agree with this.
If the NPC's have some equipment, like armors / suits if they have, useless/ useful items, ammo, 3 - 6 weapons (melee, ranged, throwing, traps) it will be interesting if we use biomods or suits an enemy change weapon because the weapon in current use isn't adapted to fight us, the weapon isn't the only thing, they can use an other fire mod, or change the current ammo.
The fact an enemy can pickup an item in the ground to fight us can make the combat more interesting.
In DX we can use the barrels and the crates against the enemies, in DX2 we can do some damages by trowing a bean, crates, barrels, if the enemies can do this it can be better.
If they shot in a barrel because this can destroy us and not by the fact they want to shot us and they hit the barrel accidently this adds some interesting things.

Many things uses AI tweaks, the rest is the fact the enemies when they are human must have an amount of HP close to our HP, if the creature is special like a karkian, a dog, a greasel, a bot or what ever thoses creatures are the only creature can get a much higher or much lower amount of HP.
When we find Walton Simons and kill Him he the difficulty is his weaponry, biomods and its agility, not the fact he have a great amount of HP....

AaronJ
5th Jul 2008, 14:00
Bad AI can kill a game. Crysis.

Blade_hunter
5th Jul 2008, 14:12
Yes and it's for that reason some choices must be made...
For me capture is more easy to apply than surrendering for example
But the AI can be good or not if the amount of things to manage is low or big...
But I don't know what are the points the devs wants to add in DX 3 and what they can do with the AI

Chemix
5th Jul 2008, 17:52
Bad AI can kill a game. Crysis.

Crysis AI wasn't bad, it simply was predictable and once you memorize their behaviors it gets very easy (cloak shoot, cloak, run, recharge cloak, shoot, cloak, etc. etc.) but what could the AI have really done better? Given you're just about the "Predator" of the entire game, what could they do? Though them taking cover would have been nice, though most of the time if they just ran up to you and kept shooting you, you were a gonner anyway.

Kevyne-Shandris
5th Jul 2008, 18:07
To make theses features fun, we must balance them, and keep the fact all things are a challenge.

Yes. And it starts with remembering there's 3 different playstyles that was offered in DX: run n' gun; diplomancy; stealth. Concentrating on combat AI isn't balancing the playstyles.

Some want better narratives between NPCs, so they can negotiate past the baddie patrols. Some want a better way to sneak past every baddie (and not even bother with killing them. Keeping a very low profile). Combat is fun, and DX will be marketed as a shooter to grab the biggest gaming market, but playing a DX game isn't just shooting.

This would mean more of a generic AI, than a more specific one (if for anything to save on headaches and budget). In the F.E.A.R. expansions they already have the limping and group save type AI (and it wasn't very impressive, as they're still AIed NPCs. Don't hit the trigger, they either don't exist [can't crash throught the ceiling on fastropes; or just patrol like any other scripted guards]).

Gamers would prefer AI more human, but because we can't even get robotics to be more human like from even SCIENTISTS (forget programmers), it's still a pipe dream. This is why MP exists. It's just too bad MP is 99% about killing and maybe taking some flag. Now in Co-op AI would have to be more than brain dead, but I wouldn't want creative time taken away from SP to impliment it. The beauty of DX is in the SP content, afterall.

HouseOfPain
5th Jul 2008, 20:51
Dont know how many people agree but Halo CE and Halo 3 had the BEST AI I have ever played. I would like to go into detail but I have a ride to catch, so cya! (will Edit later)

Blade_hunter
5th Jul 2008, 21:12
A great AI is an AI that can learn and react correctly with the maximum elements of the game, but it's very difficult to do this things.
An AI can react by the level design and some crossing elements.
The walls and some obstacles are combat elements.
The doors, elevators, teleport passages, triggers, movable / destroyable items, are a sort of crossing elements with a trigger or can help us to go in the wanted location.
An AI is most of times I see, I kill
The AI have pathfinding, sometimes they when they see you they can't join us, the firsts AI in games like duke nukem and quake are examples
Some way's are unfeasible by an AI because they never do some things, in DX the AI can't jump for example, and use some crates to block the way is an easy AI trick in DX 1, the explosive barrels too, because they aren't suicidal, but put a chair, a wooden crate or metal barrel they break the barrel by walking on it.
Some games like Quake 2, HL, Unreal, Red faction, Battlefield, Farcry, Fear, adds some steps in AI work.
All things added in the game can be an AI trigger

I agree with you when you talk about MP games, most of times we have simple objectives and killing is most of times the best solution.
For the MP games I preferred the game Unreal tournament because it was the only game that propose the assault mode, make different objectives in a limited amount of time.
This game was the first you can customize the AI, I tried to make stealthy AI and fighter AI by changing some AI tweaks
But most of times MP FPS are resumed by what you say.

For SP games like DX we have more interactivity, and DX has the best interactivity.
For MP games thats useless in DX MP the interactivity was reduced because some things are useless

For the soldiers if we have an identical game as DX 1 I want the guards do the next things

-Jump over a crate, a fall.
-Climb over ladders
-When we close a door they must unlock the door before open it
-They can throw the crates and other items to us
-They can move a crate if they are strong enough if the crate interfere they're way
-They can target the barrels if we are near a dangerous barrel
-They can try to fire on our hands to lose the weapon
-They can try to swim if we are on the water and have a weapon that can work underwater
-They can try to be covered by an obstacle if we fire an homing weapon
-They can try to put LAMs on walls to make a trap
-They can try to fire on LAMs in the wall if the LAM isn't hidden or cloaked
-They can use tactical assault groups.
-They can go in air vents and try to kill / knock us
-They can take cover of a wall if the location is a good position to fight against us if we are on a certain location.
-An injured enemy that will go to call their team mates because they are very low on health, can try to fight again but stay on the rear of his team mate.
-When they can't fight our turret, or like a bot they try to avoid them if their weapon are useless against it, they can try to call a team mate with the right equipment.
-When they bur they try to find water, a fire extinguisher, a shower, etc ...

We can add some things but that can be a difficult work.

What do you want to add for the guards AI if the game have the same possibilities of DX 1 ?, and after we can do the same with new possibilities

Kevyne-Shandris
5th Jul 2008, 22:07
All things added in the game can be an AI trigger

I'm referring to the actual trigger point (that must be switched on) for a scene to play.

The AI doesn't see you. It will only interact with you if you flip their switch. And that's some form of trigger you walk over or physically push/pull (opening a lock/door). Step or switch it, the AI reacts to you via script.

In F.E.A.R. it was floor trigger points (which is why if you want to look at a level before the scene plays out, you have to fly over the trigger [especially true in the Fettel/Alice hostage scene. Step about 4ft into the anteroom, and it'll play and they're gone like ghosts]. Fly over the trigger, and you can scope how the scene was setup beyond your view [important in understanding how to setup such scenes]). But in more roomier levels that doesn't direct you to the trigger, you can play out the area for some time until you walk onto a trigger or it's vicinity (which is why I'm saying you can even bypass some triggers).

Prefer door triggers with long delay times, to give the impression they don't see you, but "eventually do" for combat -- it will always play out (unless flying over it for studying the level/mapping), instead of roaming a huge room and all of a sudden stepping on a trigger and here comes the big guys. For games that allow sneaking (like DX), triggers would have to be found like that, so a clever sneak could bypass the patrols. But in situations where scenes HAVE to play so the story unfolds, the triggers have to be switched without bypasses (requiring a huge point radius; narrow hallways; linearly directing the protagonist to walk to the trigger [like what you mentioned with blocking access].

AI in games is really playing a scene. They're tightly scripted to do XYZ when ABC trigger is activated. There could be 10 AI scripts for patrols, but the "intelligence" is how they react to you via script, not actual gameplay. A true AI script would process your keystrokes and mouse movements in real time and process how to counter it. That takes more level design thinking of the WHOLE game, than devs are willing to put into it (let alone to get funding for).

Blade_hunter
5th Jul 2008, 23:07
Yeah I agree the FOV of an NPC is a script, and when we enter in the zone we can be "detected" by the NPC and he can do what its scripts will order to do with the conditions in the lowest amount of time.
But some AI's aren't in the NPC script sometimes the AI is on the map (waypoints for example)
Some door triggers should be added, but an other trigger can be implemented, it can be our supposed FOV zone, if our FOV zone interacts with the Zone where the script must be done it can be an other possibility of trigger

Kevyne-Shandris
5th Jul 2008, 23:28
It's still a script, intersecting or not. After awhile, if you watch closely enough, you can even expect their reaction -- no more "gotcha" because you now know how the animations play out, and react accordingly.

Script is one half of the equation; the animations are the next. Scripting can do a heck of a lot more, but the animations are the limiting factor. See the same animations over and over and over, you already know how to defeat the AI. Add set paths......same o' same o'.

The AI would have to react in real time to your actions to give gamers that real feeling the AI isn't just a dumb script (can't wait, would make MP not as important -- get tired of the same MP M.O., too. DM/TDM/Flag/Conquer/Control, it gets O-L-D!).

Blade_hunter
5th Jul 2008, 23:48
Yeah the AI scripts on the maps are the worst kind of AI, this can help sometimes the NPC AI script.
I wanted to mention them because some games use them too much and we feel to have a dumb AI because the NPC's react after reaching the position to continue their script and have a low amount of reactions.
For me the map scripts are better to activate a scene, than to be used in an AI

Romeo
8th Jul 2008, 07:35
With specific regards to damage to the AI, Soldiar of Fortune: Double Helix had a phenomenal number of reactions and body specific damage points (32, if memory serves). Shoot a gaurd in the hand, he dropped his gun. In the lower leg, he limped slowly. In the lower-regions, he died holding the nothingness he was once proud of.

Chemix
8th Jul 2008, 15:30
I like to try and go about a game killing no one, except Crysis as the NKA AI is never thankful for not getting slaughtered and you can't remove weapons from tranquilized troops.

There should be several levels of injury as well as just alive/dead/unconscious

If an enemy gets shot in certain areas (say the shoulder or the hand) they won't be able to fight, but they can scream for help. If their toes are shot, then they can't walk, more probable would be foot shots.

Use of pressure points would be interesting, that way shots to certain parts would cause paralysis, you could even use rubber bullets.

So we'd get
Ready: to fight
Tired: slow but still fighting
Weary: even slower and highly paranoid, but inaccurate; could occur after heavy fighting
Paralyzed: Stuck in a standing pose, can be pushed over and disarmed, the paralysis can end suddenly at random, chances of staying paralyzed increase with proximity to the center of the pressure point
Tranquilized:Sleeping, can be disarmed, will slide on slanted terrain, will not swim
Unconscious: Same as above, but induced by a concussion
Critical Upper Injury:The subject cannot fire a weapon, but can walk and call for help (duct tape very useful)
Critical Lower Injury:The subject cannot walk, but can shoot (but has a chance of not, the chance decreases as their rank increases)
Total Critical Injury: The subject cannot walk, or shoot, but can call for help unless they are unconscious
Dis-Membered: Still alive but lacking an extremity, will die of blood loss without medical aid
Dead: Dead; Dee E A Dee; Dead
Gibbed: A scattered assortment of bodyparts and internal organs, definitely dead
Mist: A spray of blood and bone fragments, like gibbed, but moreso.

Blade_hunter
8th Jul 2008, 20:05
Yeah,great think ! :thumbsup:

In DX the unconscious and the death is a bit the same and your proposal gives some possibilities.

And your proposal makes a true difference between each and it's what I want for the game, perhaps we can improve it.

I have a question are you against a capture system or not ?

El_Bel
8th Jul 2008, 22:01
I would love to see limbing (if i understood correctly what it means) like Soldier of Fortune 1. I still play it on god mode, filling the hands and legs of my enemies with knifes :p

Body hiding should play a bigger role on the (stealth part of the) game.

As for surrendering enemies.. I imagine if you can get close enough to press the USE button on them, you should be able to threaten them to surrender. This is very good for stealth game.

You walk silently, behind your opponent and you press the use button(right click by default on DX) from then on you should be able to talk to him, but without freezing the game(like the conversations on the original). You can give him orders, like drop his weapon or to tell you passwords(or go to the retinal scanner and open the door, but this is more splinter cell style). After that you could leave him unconscious with a hit from the back of your weapon(halo style melee), shoot him, or let him go.. if at any point you take your weapon off his back(to check if anyone is coming) he gets his weapon out and he shoots you.

Blade_hunter
8th Jul 2008, 22:27
Your "capture" / "threaten system" will remember me the game XIII
In this game we have something like this, and we can use the victims as human shields ...
But we can only do this to unsuspecting victims of course

Romeo
9th Jul 2008, 03:43
I don't know, do we really need different "dead"s? This aint F.E.A.R. or Gears of War, a corpse is a corpse. As for living situations, those I can agree with. Injuries are by far my favorite thing to notice in combat.

El_Bel
9th Jul 2008, 04:34
Yes we need different deads!!! Think about it!! It would change nothing for a guns blazing character, but it will make stealth gaming a bit more real and challenging. Dead hiding is a standard for stealth games (thief, splinter cell, hitman) Or a hacker player could use the corpses as baits. The guard sees a body, he walks there to check the area and boom!! He walks in front of a turret!! Oh (off topic) and the player should be able to control turrets like in IW..

Chemix
9th Jul 2008, 12:11
I don't know, do we really need different "dead"s? This aint F.E.A.R. or Gears of War, a corpse is a corpse. As for living situations, those I can agree with. Injuries are by far my favorite thing to notice in combat.

GEP gun rockets "gib" organic targets in DX, and "mist" is just "gibbed" but more so. I honestly hate it when I shoot an enemy with a rocket launcher and he just flies back a few feet dead... it's a damned ROCKET.

El_Bel
9th Jul 2008, 12:31
I don't know, do we really need different "dead"s? This aint F.E.A.R. or Gears of War, a corpse is a corpse. As for living situations, those I can agree with. Injuries are by far my favorite thing to notice in combat.

Oh now i understand what you meant. Sorry mate.

Hey, imagine a guard that sees gibs on the wall, and a mass of blood and bones on the floor!! And then we see him throw up!! :lmao: We need gibs!! And i want them to stay in the world and have some effect to the moral!!

Blade_hunter
9th Jul 2008, 21:59
I think get different NPC status, like dead, injuried, unconscious, gibbed, tired and more enrich the game, in combat therms, it adds some fun realism, because I hate to see Games like some FPS, when we shot a NPC with a RL or a cadaver they never be reduced in a piece of meat. If we use a sort of option to reduce the violence OK, but I talk about FPS with deactivated violence control...
I won't talk about quake (because we can pulverize many enemies the only problem was on cadavers), but in the game C&C renegade that will remove an imersion part.
Shoot a guard with the RL it dies bu never leave blood trails and can't be pulverized and disappear quickly

iWait
10th Jul 2008, 05:26
I personally hated how in DX you couldn't kill an enemy (save for explosives) after you knocked them unconscious, and how in IW if you dropped them in the shower and turned it on they died (seriously).

The widow's son
10th Jul 2008, 06:45
Thats what happens if you don't take ablutophobia seriously ...:lmao:

gamer0004
10th Jul 2008, 14:30
I personally hated how in DX you couldn't kill an enemy (save for explosives) after you knocked them unconscious, and how in IW if you dropped them in the shower and turned it on they died (seriously).

For real? LOL, didn't now about that one.

Blade_hunter
10th Jul 2008, 15:40
I think an other element should be introduced to add some realm, it's the endurance/stamina
When we walk the stamina bar stay in the same state (at maximum)
When we make jumps the stamina bar will be reduced at each jumps
When we are running we loose more stamina when we use weapons that requires to get more strength (An heavy weapon (carrying and firing, an automatic weapon when we use it, a melee weapon even our hands)

The stamina will be reduced at a certain point when we are tired, and disallow fast moves, high jumps, etc...

To be unconscious / knocked the stamina bar will reach a critical level, this level can be reached only with weapons like anesthetic gas, tranquilizers, be knocked by a baton, etc ...

Tranquilizers with this system attacks our stamina bar and reduce significantly our combat abilities, and we can be unconscious during a certain amount of time.

If we are unconscious we can wake up quickly, or more later depends of the tranquilizers, if we take too much tranquilizers, we die.

The stamina bar will be reduced if we are seriously injured.
When we are unconscious we, and NPC's can be killed, because the damage type isn't the same.

I think the stamina can be the best thing to manage the fact we can be ready/tired/unconscious.
The health is our overall physical state, and it have a consequences in our stamina.
the NPC's have the same.

Put players and NPC's at equal levels Is I think, more interesting it looks like DX, no ?

jcp28
10th Jul 2008, 16:03
I wouldn't mind such a system, but it sounds an awful lot like an extra gameplay device we don't need. Besides, what happens if you get tranqued? Will it become extremely difficult for you to move around anywhere?:scratch: Again, I'm not really opposed, but this coiuld easily become a very bad idea depending on how it is implemented.

gamer0004
10th Jul 2008, 16:31
I would mind such a system because it is totally unrealistic. Running and jumping don't affect how you well fire a gun or use a melee weapon.

El_Bel
10th Jul 2008, 16:42
I don't think it will work mate. Imagine if we couldn't run on liberty island..

As for the rest(not the jumping, running part) a think it would do more harm than good. Keep it simple!! Nice idea though, just not for Deus Ex.. :)

Blade_hunter
10th Jul 2008, 18:27
Yeah it depends on its implementation of course...


In DX when you run and have fire arm in hand what it append with your accuracy ?

You loose the accuracy no ?


When you get tranqued you fall and close your eyes, no ?

After a little time you wake up


I don't want a system that disallow you to run everywhere, no.

In DX when your skills with heavy weapons are low you can't run, you walk, even if you are at run state.

When you have a melee weapon in hand you don't loose stamina, you loose the stamina only when you shot with it.

In DX when you move with a firearm, your accuracy will decrease too quickly, like when you fire with an auto weapon


The stamina will regenerate automatically when you stay or walk, if you run you don't regain the stamina

With this system you can keep a not too bad accuracy and fire with a slow weapon without big worries.

With this system you can run even if you have a RL and the basic skills, but the RL makes you tired quickly if you keep it in hand when you run, the stamina will reduce quick.
we must upgrade the strength skill if we won't find theses problems

With melee weapons the big melee weapons have only advantages when we compare to smaller.
The low tech skill must be upgraded if we don't want loose too much stamina when we use heavy melee weapons.
with a knife the stamina regeneration rate is sufficient to make several shots without be tired, but if we use a two handed axe the stamina regeneration rate isn't sufficient to move the axe and run with the maximum speed, if we continue to run and move the axe we can be tired and walk, or stay

When we shot with an auto weapon with a big recoil and a big rate of fire that reduce the stamina, when you run and shot with this weapon the stamina don't have a sufficient regeneration rate to run at full speed and keep the accuracy at a good state.
If we stay the recoil effect is lower because our forces are concentrated, to keep the accuracy.
I don't think if you have a true minigun in hand you can fire tons of bullets continuously without be tired, or keep the weapon in hands.

When you get fired by tranquilizers, the first thing happen is you walk slow, you can loose your reflexes, and when the product was at maximum effect you fall dawn and sleep during a time, get unconscious.

This system is an other realistic thought (I think), not a system with more worries, it's a system with other worries.
I don't show all things about this and it's difficult for me to explain all things, but this system can be a bad or a good thing and it depends on its implementation.

Romeo
11th Jul 2008, 00:56
Yes we need different deads!!! Think about it!! It would change nothing for a guns blazing character, but it will make stealth gaming a bit more real and challenging. Dead hiding is a standard for stealth games (thief, splinter cell, hitman) Or a hacker player could use the corpses as baits. The guard sees a body, he walks there to check the area and boom!! He walks in front of a turret!! Oh (off topic) and the player should be able to control turrets like in IW..

I have nothing against moving bodies, just wondering why we'd need "Dead" "Blown Up Dead" and "Liquid Dead". Seemed a bit much.

Blade_hunter
11th Jul 2008, 18:00
DX is one of the rare FPS that allows you to kill most persons or keep them alive (enemies and friends), but when you see an unconscious body and a dead body, they are the same, and if you fire on an unconscious NPC, it never dies except when we destroy the cadaver...
When you knock an NPC it never wake up, it perhaps amplifies the similarities between unconscious and dead.
In DX when we use non lethal weapons we have the feeling that we have killed like an other weapon, even if they don't scream with a big "Arrrrgh !!" and they do a "Uuuuuhhh"
In the game SOF I targeted the neck when I want to kill silently In SOF the NPCs scream when we kill them, but when we kill them by a "neck shot" they do a "Arr....Arr....", throw some blood by their mouth and die.

jcp28
11th Jul 2008, 21:25
That never made me happy. I remember this time in Liberty Island where I took down all the enemies nonlethally, and then when I ran into Paul outside UNATCO headquarters, he would tell me to pace myself. Grrrrrr........:mad2:


Please try to distinguish better, here!

TrickyVein
24th Aug 2008, 17:05
in dx invisi war after knocking out chad and nicolette on liberty island, i uploaded the Aquinas specs in the UNATCO ruins to the illuminati...and got an infolink from chad congratulating me...

that game did make more of a distinction between knocked out and dead which I was very thankful for however.

Jerion
24th Aug 2008, 20:10
I have nothing against moving bodies, just wondering why we'd need "Dead" "Blown Up Dead" and "Liquid Dead". Seemed a bit much.

To the player it wouldn't make much difference other than the gore level. But the reactions by NPCs would be much more detailed if they react to different types of death in different ways.

TrickyVein
27th Aug 2008, 00:02
But the reactions by NPCs would be much more detailed if they react to different types of death in different ways.

Oh my GOD! What kind of sick person would push a woman out of a window?!??!?

For anyone who doesn't get it, Maggie Chow lives on the uppermost floor of queen's tower in HK. :)

DXeXodus
27th Aug 2008, 04:15
Oh my GOD! What kind of sick person would push a woman out of a window?!??!?

For anyone who doesn't get it, Maggie Chow lives on the uppermost floor of queen's tower in HK. :)


So did her housekeeper ;)
And it was awefully high from up there

Spiffmeister
27th Aug 2008, 06:21
In DX1 each body part had its own hitbox, with damage to that box affecting various things (movement, accuracy, etc). Putting in visual changes (limping) as well as the negative effects, would add a level of realism to the games experience.

Abram730
11th Oct 2008, 05:24
The DX:IW alarm system shouldn't be used either because then the guards will know excactely where you are once the alarm is sound, which is a bit strange and very annoying.

have an AI relaxed and alert state. If you run up behind a relaxed guard he will turn not expecting an attack and an alert guard will. It could also affect range they notice you from.

An alarm need not send guards running at you. It could be implemented in AI alone.


But you have to agree that it's very strange when the remaining guards don't react at all to seeing the dead body of one of their colleagues. In reality they would be highly alarmed and the only way to prevent from that would be to hide the bodies from them. Maybe it's not always fun but it really adds to the overall perception as credible game world and also adds some extra-difficutly to consider before you attack someone.

it wouldn't matter to the Rambo type, but if you were going stealth.

Abram730
11th Oct 2008, 07:16
A great AI is an AI that can learn and react correctly with the maximum elements of the game, but it's very difficult to do this things.
An AI can react by the level design and some crossing elements.
The walls and some obstacles are combat elements.
The doors, elevators, teleport passages, triggers, movable / destroyable items, are a sort of crossing elements with a trigger or can help us to go in the wanted location.
An AI is most of times I see, I kill
The AI have pathfinding, sometimes they when they see you they can't join us, the firsts AI in games like duke nukem and quake are examples
Some way's are unfeasible by an AI because they never do some things, in DX the AI can't jump for example, and use some crates to block the way is an easy AI trick in DX 1, the explosive barrels too, because they aren't suicidal, but put a chair, a wooden crate or metal barrel they break the barrel by walking on it.
Some games like Quake 2, HL, Unreal, Red faction, Battlefield, Farcry, Fear, adds some steps in AI work.
All things added in the game can be an AI trigger

I agree with you when you talk about MP games, most of times we have simple objectives and killing is most of times the best solution.
For the MP games I preferred the game Unreal tournament because it was the only game that propose the assault mode, make different objectives in a limited amount of time.
This game was the first you can customize the AI, I tried to make stealthy AI and fighter AI by changing some AI tweaks
But most of times MP FPS are resumed by what you say.

For SP games like DX we have more interactivity, and DX has the best interactivity.
For MP games thats useless in DX MP the interactivity was reduced because some things are useless

For the soldiers if we have an identical game as DX 1 I want the guards do the next things

-Jump over a crate, a fall.
-Climb over ladders
-When we close a door they must unlock the door before open it
-They can throw the crates and other items to us
-They can move a crate if they are strong enough if the crate interfere they're way
-They can target the barrels if we are near a dangerous barrel
-They can try to fire on our hands to lose the weapon
-They can try to swim if we are on the water and have a weapon that can work underwater
-They can try to be covered by an obstacle if we fire an homing weapon
-They can try to put LAMs on walls to make a trap
-They can try to fire on LAMs in the wall if the LAM isn't hidden or cloaked
-They can use tactical assault groups.
-They can go in air vents and try to kill / knock us
-They can take cover of a wall if the location is a good position to fight against us if we are on a certain location.
-An injured enemy that will go to call their team mates because they are very low on health, can try to fight again but stay on the rear of his team mate.
-When they can't fight our turret, or like a bot they try to avoid them if their weapon are useless against it, they can try to call a team mate with the right equipment.
-When they bur they try to find water, a fire extinguisher, a shower, etc ...

We can add some things but that can be a difficult work.

What do you want to add for the guards AI if the game have the same possibilities of DX 1 ?, and after we can do the same with new possibilities


One thing DX 1 had was guards that ran. Private guards and low level security get crap for pay and usually do it to bully people. I've done security in some really rough places and been in the middle of shoot outs. most security are cowards and friendly fire is a huge problem.. I was pepper sprayed more times then I care to count. When s**** hit the fan few engaged with anything pop in spray and back off tactics. Quick to run and very disorganized. Mixed in are some off duty police and ones that got fired. They handle much better but still have some issues in that chaotic environment. Dx wise, there would be some high payed highly trained people with augs.

Cops are often bad shots and shoot first aim second.. "Friendly Fire, Discharges Comprised 43 Percent of Shot L.A. Officers"
IF he moves shoot or send the dog in and then shoot.
graphic video of police shooting extreem warning http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7360588060302610252


So if your going totally realistic it would only be units of trained solders that would actually be a huge effective force AI wise.

I do think there should be levels to the AI.

I think you nailed some good points for AI abilities.
Perhaps
-shooting in air vents.
-untrained troops in the back may run when they see people getting shot or hide behind other NPC's.
-I think FF avoidance should off for some NPC's.
I'd like to see some buffoons that have no business in security and some intense shock troops that would get my heart pumping. A real challenge.
relaxed and alert states.
-some NPC's may climb to a roof and snipe in there is some alarm of body found.
-respond to local alarms like a door alarm. (could be useful to hack and cause a door alarm)
-group numbers affect tactics. In groups less chance of them running.

basicly I'd say there should be a few actions they could take given an input and NPC's should have personality variables to handle there actions like a random number and a ratio or scripted actions.

example hint entering buildingX is easy using the side door as it's guarded by a nice moron(PC enters restricted area with a gun and the guard asks what you think you are doing) but the back door may be tough(PC enters restricted area and npc opens fire before seeing a gun).

random NPC to NPC CIV harassment.

I think it could be over done but chasing down running guards would put speed Aug's to good use. A variation in AI would give a player pause and reason to scope things out. I think bad security would need to be balanced with real tactical squads and depend on level. Guards at an office building and military mercs at a secure facility are going to act different.

Anything you like or don't like or dislike in my post???

Lazarus Ledd
6th Nov 2008, 11:30
I'm for the limping.
There no exciting moment than hunting the hurted victim, in-game =D
Non need for the enemy to run off, just wanna meet him with my friend 'fear' :lol: