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Atheist
6th Jan 2008, 22:11
NOTE: I'm not saying Zombies are going to be the next game. I'm saying I don't want them to be.

NOTE: By ZOMBIES what I don't mean is all undead things. Specifically, I mean exactly this:
http://residentevil.planets.gamespy.com/images/pages/sketchbooks/re2/beta/zombie3.jpg




I remember saying before that I didn’t want any zombies. I can feel it coming... :(


We've had undead creatures in TR like mummies and skeletons. Mummies are perfectly fine. They have histories, stories and myths surrounding them - which make them perfect for Tomb Raider! They are normally corpses of old Kings and Queens or someone of importance and lie in tombs of riches and relics. Not only are they scary enemies, but they tie in perfectly with the game and whatever adventure/quest that Lara is pursuing. Skeletons are ferocious, war hungry guardians, being undead and almost invincible on the account that there’s nothing really to kill! Unlike zombies, they are portrayed in TR4 as agile and clever.


But zombies…? Mindless, rotting, horrific animated corpses that just wander around clawing at things and trying to kill people. They have no real use. They’re just there to add horror, something to shoot at in a FPS. There’s nothing historical about them like mummies, or devious about them like skeletons. They're just…dead…things. :(

I think it’s stupid to add zombies in on a Tomb Raider game. By that I mean like what I just described; mindless, flesh eating, unattractive dead bodies. And I think Lara is higher than that, she’s not a muscleman with a big gun running through dreary streets in the rain blasting off groaning corpses. There's enough of those types of games. She tackles the ferocious maneuvers of wild animals, the deadly swipes of ancient mummies and huge blows of magnificent beasts like the T-Rex, massive Indian god statues, Atlantean queens and whatnot. :p

However…

Ghosts or specters…even undead creatures that can be classed as ‘zombies’ like tribal zombies…they’re okay. Just give her enemies a bit of class, history, meaning - something worth fighting with and even dying by.


If nothing I've said makes sense, basically what I'm saying is just this:

please, please, pleeeeeeeeeeease! Don’t lower Lara into a zombie hunter. :p

Jezyk
6th Jan 2008, 22:13
Totally agree! :thumbsup:

Atheist
6th Jan 2008, 22:16
I'm glad! :D

LegendLost
6th Jan 2008, 22:32
I'm really into zombies and what not, but I agree, keep it separate from Tomb Raider, I mean, we practically had them in AOD Sanitarium Levels (I know, they were just crazy people) But it had the same feel, and well, although fun, IT DIDN'T FEEL LIKE TOMB RAIDER, So, at least it wasn't Lara playing those Levels!

So yeah, NO ZOMBIES. & Actually, I don't want vampires or Werewolves either! Although cool, they just too, Cliche and overdone!

Stick to less heard of things, or even created for the game creatures!

Atheist
6th Jan 2008, 22:39
I'm really into zombies and what not, but I agree, keep it separate from Tomb Raider, I mean, we practically had them in AOD Sanitarium Levels (I know, they were just crazy people) But it had the same feel, and well, although fun, IT DIDN'T FEEL LIKE TOMB RAIDER, So, at least it wasn't Lara playing those Levels!

Yes, I was going to mention that. They were terrible, and no, it didn’t feel like Tomb Raider at all. It felt like Half Life.



So yeah, NO ZOMBIES. & Actually, I don't want vampires or Werewolves either! Although cool, they just too, Cliche and overdone!

Yeah, they are a bit! :p I wouldn’t like them to either, but at least they have a little more style than zombies.
I think its best just to keep all horror-movie undead creatures OUT of Tomb Raider. Mummies are perfectly fine, and the skeletons played a good part in LR...but anything else I don't think is going to work.

And surely using a bit of imagination and creating something new and original is better? :confused:



Stick to less heard of things, or even created for the game creatures!

Yes! :p Creatures created just for the game are best, or go for things heard of in Greek Mythology; harpies, giants, nymphs - that sort of thing.

I really want beautiful creatures. Like massive jeweled birds and such. :thumbsup:

RaiderGirl#1
6th Jan 2008, 23:36
I find it kind of funny, because the way you wrote it almost makes it seem like they've said that they would put mummies in. I agree, that it would be a little strange to have mummies in a tomb raider game. The best would be for the creatures to have to do with the setting/time/plot. The massive jeweled birds sound cool!

Rai
7th Jan 2008, 02:04
I agree with RaiderGirl, you make it sound like Zombies are definitely going to be an enemy for Lara to beat in Underworld. I think you're being a tad presumptuous there. I can see why it might seem that zombies are an obvious choice with the whole title suggesting that Lara may very well come across the undead of some description being as the underworld is a feature, but we don't know yet which ones.

I agree though. I wouldn't want zombies in a Tomb Raider game either. It just wouldn't be right. I'm not even sure I want to see vampires in it; this is Lara not Buffy! :p

If zombies are in it, I'll still play but I just won't like the level/s with them in. Just like I didn't like the Great Pyramid from TR1/TRA with all those mutants. :(

As much as I hope they aren't in the game, isn't it too soon to assume they will be?

EDIT: Just had a thought: How do you feel about demons of some description?

Mangar The Dark
7th Jan 2008, 14:26
I find it kind of funny, because the way you wrote it almost makes it seem like they've said that they would put mummies in. I agree, that it would be a little strange to have mummies in a tomb raider game.

But there WERE mummies in TR4.:confused:

Phlip
7th Jan 2008, 17:12
I wouldn't mind if they introduce Zombies. (Although not overly many zombies. ;))

we practically had them in AOD Sanitarium Levels (I know, they were just crazy people) But it had the same feel, and well, although fun, IT DIDN'T FEEL LIKE TOMB RAIDER, So, at least it wasn't Lara playing those Levels!
That was just very depressing. :(

Tomb-Dude
7th Jan 2008, 17:22
To be honest i dont think they will... It might be the underworld but that doesnt mean zombies... Creature which u wont see in a zoo is what i have read a few times.
From what i can gather there are humans (dont really mind) and panthers.
These two i think are the most confirmed (just posted up a new artical on "New news")

But i don't i would be pleased if they did introdruce zombies, but i dont think they are....

Atheist
7th Jan 2008, 17:46
I find it kind of funny, because the way you wrote it almost makes it seem like they've said that they would put mummies in. I agree, that it would be a little strange to have mummies in a tomb raider game. The best would be for the creatures to have to do with the setting/time/plot. The massive jeweled birds sound cool!

Umm…what? I’m not talking about mummies, I’m talking about Zombies.

But yeah, massive jeweled birds ftw! :D



I agree with RaiderGirl, you make it sound like Zombies are definitely going to be an enemy for Lara to beat in Underworld. I think you're being a tad presumptuous there. I can see why it might seem that zombies are an obvious choice with the whole title suggesting that Lara may very well come across the undead of some description being as the underworld is a feature, but we don't know yet which ones.

I’m just saying if they ARE. If they’re not, then awesome.
I just thought I mention it before CD actually thinks about it.



EDIT: Just had a thought: How do you feel about demons of some description?

That’s fine. Amanda’s creature in Legend was a kind of demon if you think about it. I just don’t want Tomb Raider to turn into a zombie thriller game, you know? :(
I would say ghosts, spirits, elementals and demons are all okay.



But i don't i would be pleased if they did introdruce zombies, but i dont think they are....

That’s good. It’s just in case they are thinking of it, I want to get a word in beforehand ;)

ditom
8th Jan 2008, 21:24
Zombies shouldn't be in TR they should be kept in SH or something like that.I can't imagine Lara fighting with dead body.I think that next TR games are going to be like killing everything around you without any puzzles.

Rai
8th Jan 2008, 22:06
No! there are going to be puzzles, possibly even level sized ones! :D

The environment is going to be harder to get past as well, apparently. There are going to be humans but not as many as Legend! Woot!

ditom
9th Jan 2008, 14:16
Anyway I still think that zombies isn't good idea.

Atheist
10th Jan 2008, 16:25
Nope, neither do I.

Tomb-Dude
10th Jan 2008, 16:28
BUt lets not say anything until the enermy's have been confirmed ;)
Then we can have a moan about what there is and isn't :p

Xcom
10th Jan 2008, 16:42
I don't see anything particularly wrong with zombies. Zombies are easy. Lara can equip a bottle of holy H20 (like Garrett the Thief). Nothing to worry about. :p

Giant spiders, on the other hand, .... :eek:

This reminds me of your very first thread, Atheist. lol

Atheist
10th Jan 2008, 16:46
BUt lets not say anything until the enermy's have been confirmed ;)
Then we can have a moan about what there is and isn't :p

Better to have a moan before. If they confirm it first and then we moan about it, they'll just go, "Oh well. We've done it now."

Tomb-Dude
10th Jan 2008, 16:48
Better to have a moan before. If they confirm it first and then we moan about it, they'll just go, "Oh well. We've done it now."

Yer i supose but some how i doubt they would put zombies in a tomb raider game. That more silent hill, resident evil sort of stuff.
Tomb Raider is more about animals and now the occasional merc, and if in egypt mummys :D but not zombies.

But if they do put them in i would play it still and love it but it would probally remind me of resident evil?

Atheist
10th Jan 2008, 16:51
I don't see anything particularly wrong with zombies. Zombies are easy. Lara can equip a bottle of holy H20 (like Garrett the Thief). Nothing to worry about. :p

Giant spiders, on the other hand, .... :eek:

It's not that. It's the fact that she goes from tackling wild beats, fighting off ancient queens or Egyptian gods or gunning down waves of mercs...to blasting away rotting, animated corpses - like some cheap arcade game?

I don't want that to happen.



This reminds me of your very first thread, Atheist. lol

Haha, yeah! :D I remember that! :p

Atheist
10th Jan 2008, 16:53
Yer i supose but some how i doubt they would put zombies in a tomb raider game. That more silent hill, resident evil sort of stuff.
Tomb Raider is more about animals and now the occasional merc, and if in egypt mummys :D but not zombies.

But if they do put them in i would play it still and love it but it would probally remind me of resident evil?

That is exactly my point, Tomb Raider IS about animals, mummies, the occasional human enemy...not zombies.

It IS more Silent Hill/Resident Evil, and it would remind me of them as well.

That's why I'm making this thread now, just in case they are considering it.

Xcom
10th Jan 2008, 17:07
It's strange you find mummies okay, but not zombies. IMHO, mummies not that different from zombies, only they're wrapped in first aid bandages. :p

Tomb-Dude
10th Jan 2008, 17:09
That is exactly my point, Tomb Raider IS about animals, mummies, the occasional human enemy...not zombies.

It IS more Silent Hill/Resident Evil, and it would remind me of them as well.

That's why I'm making this thread now, just in case they are considering it.


I understand where you coming from but that person (can't remember who said it) but its something about the storyline of underworld, who mentioned zombies. I think got it all wrong. UNderworld doesn't mean zombies its different creatures most perhaps. Zombies are the living dead, or as in resident evil they all got infected by a virus? Stupid people really?

But lets just hope they arn't any zombies, but i have seen anything on zombies. Just animals and the occasional human?

Tomb-Dude
10th Jan 2008, 17:10
It's strange you find mummies okay, but not zombies. IMHO, mummies not that different from zombies, only they're wrapped in first aid bandages. :p

lol mummy's have more of a hystory to them, where as zombies are jsut dead people walking the streets. Fun in certain games but not really in Tomb Raider. Mummy's have a lot of hystory about them and are more interesting!!!!!

Atheist
10th Jan 2008, 17:10
It's strange you find mummies okay, but not zombies. IMHO, mummies not that different from zombies, only they're wrapped in first aid bandages. :p


They have histories, stories and myths surrounding them - which make them perfect for Tomb Raider! :p

Zombies are simply things made up to add horror to a movie and gore or something to shoot at in a FPS.

Mummies are real things, shrouded in mystery and stories of ancient times.

Atheist
10th Jan 2008, 17:11
lol mummy's have more of a hystory to them, where as zombies are jsut dead people walking the streets. Fun in certain games but not really in Tomb Raider. Mummy's have a lot of hystory about them and are more interesting!!!!!

Ya, my point exactly, Xcom.

Tomb-Dude
10th Jan 2008, 17:15
But then again you cant really be in like a jungle with mummy's, you have to go to egypt. And well i think i saw enough sand in TR:LR
Never completed it becuase i got really bored of it, nothnig really changed for me.

But yer Zombies no mummy's yes if used correctly.

Xcom
10th Jan 2008, 17:25
Zombies are simply things made up to add horror to a movie and gore or something to shoot at in a FPS.

Resurrected corpses (aka zombies) have also plenty of mystery and history surrounding them in Caribbean/Haitian voodoo cultures.


Mummies are real things, shrouded in mystery and stories of ancient times.

Mummified bodies - yes. But mummies as walking dead, attacking, evil creatures with magical powers -- those things that Lara usually shoots -- are as "real" as zombies.

Atheist
10th Jan 2008, 17:26
I think we've all had our fair share of mummies in TR1, Anniversary, and who could forget TR4.

It's time to move on to more, better enemies.

Preferably one's invented with a bit of creativity; not stolen from, say, 24 Days Later.

Atheist
10th Jan 2008, 17:30
Resurrected corpses (aka zombies) have also plenty of mystery and history surrounding them in Caribbean/Haitian voodoo cultures.


…even sensible undead creatures that can be classed as ‘zombies’ but aren’t just walking piles of rotting flesh…

What you described (Resurrected corpses that have plenty of mystery and history surrounding them in Caribbean/Haitian voodoo cultures) are FINE for a Tomb Raider game. No complaints at all.

If you were to read (and stop trying to be deliberately picky) you would realize I’m protesting against meaningless and cliché walking rotting corpses.

Like THIS:

http://residentevil.planets.gamespy.com/images/pages/sketchbooks/re2/beta/zombie3.jpg





Mummified bodies - yes. But mummies as walking dead, attacking, evil creatures with magical powers -- those things that Lara usually shoots -- are as "real" as zombies.

Yes......you are right. They are as 'real' as zombies. That's not my point.

Are those mummies (evil and attacking with magical powers an' all) as worthy a foe to Lara or as exciting to fight then a mangled, rotting, corspe with no purpose or no history behind it at all?

Atheist
11th Jan 2008, 17:10
bump

Tomb-Dude
11th Jan 2008, 17:14
zombies pointless, mindless, brain eating creatures?? Resident evil, love the game, the zombies fit in with it.
But Tomb Raider no not really?

Love the pic Atheist

Falcon
12th Jan 2008, 20:18
Zombies are so old school. Lara need foe who are intelegent, competitive an ugly. What's she gonna do with a bunch of zombies? Give them all a one shot to the head then play with her hair to pass time. :nut: TR is fun because u don't know what u'r next opponent is. Like in tomb raider 2 u walk around a corner and suddenly there's a dude with a bat about to squash u. U freak out press all the wrong buttons. The unknown it's exiting.

I hope they don't tell us about the enmies. What's the point if u know what's comin

Zombies are not worthy enemies.

William Croft
12th Jan 2008, 20:28
Totally agree. You put up a good argument and Your so true hopefully CD and Eidos take this up and think about it

Atheist
12th Jan 2008, 21:24
Thank you! :D

aussie500
13th Jan 2008, 03:18
l see nothing wrong with zombies if we end up getting any, they are pretty similar to the Tomb Raider 4 mummies, bandaged or not they seem interesting enough to be in the game. We have had cat mummies, skeletons, human mummies and other assorted dead things guarding some of the ancient places Lara has raided, zombies are just better preserved.

NightRain'06
13th Jan 2008, 05:23
Honestly, when I initially read the title TR: Underworld, I was immediately reminded of werewolves and vampires appearing possibly. Yes, just because of that one word which reminded me of Underworld films. But I doubt there will be those or zombies.

So I don't think they'll make TRU into a RE/SH (Silent Hill) or Buffy the Vampire Slayer cloned or crossover type game. They will not color outside the lines. Or they should not....


ETA: As I mentioned in another thread a while back, as much as I loved both Legend and Anniversary, with Lara's sudden ability to manipulate time and space from adrenaline dodge (simply bullet time), I didn't like the idea about playing Lara Payne and not TR !

Atheist
13th Jan 2008, 13:40
l see nothing wrong with zombies if we end up getting any, they are pretty similar to the Tomb Raider 4 mummies, bandaged or not they seem interesting enough to be in the game. We have had cat mummies, skeletons, human mummies and other assorted dead things guarding some of the ancient places Lara has raided, zombies are just better preserved.

I've already explained all that.

Just because mummies are as undead or as real as zombies, does not mean that zombies are as suited to Tomb Raider as mummies.
Mummies have much more meaning and history. They are from an ancient time, old corpses of kings and queens and gods, surrounded in riches and relics. They're not out of place if you find one while exploring deep in an Egyptian tomb.
Zombies (how many times have I said this now? :scratch: ) are just walking piles of flesh to be shot at.

Do you really want to be fighting things like that? *points up to picture a few posts up*. If you do, go play Resident Evil.

aussie500
13th Jan 2008, 15:23
Who is to say who made the zombie and what for, that it is there guarding something Lara wants is reason enough to shoot it, l do not care what it looks like, it moves, l shoot. We have been fighting walking dead things in nearly every Tomb Raider game, the state of decomposition is not really that important. The picture above is just one artists idea of a zombie, obviously the ancient powers had ways of raising the dead, if they raised some recently deceased they would look like zombies, and moan and groan the same as a mummy no doubt.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j215/aussie500/Tomb%204/Mummy2.jpg

Rai
13th Jan 2008, 16:05
As much as I agree with you, is it really necessary for you to argue your point with every new poster who disagrees/has a varied opinion to you?

You've had your say, they've had theirs. Everyone has their own views on this, and everyone has a right to express them.

To say things such as 'How many times do I have to say it' won't necessarily change their minds either ;) . Can't you have your say and be done?

Your opinion does count - but so does everyone eles's . We all have very valid points for and against the gruesome zombies.

Atheist
13th Jan 2008, 16:28
As much as I agree with you, is it really necessary for you to argue your point with every new poster who disagrees/has a varied opinion to you?

You've had your say, they've had theirs. Everyone has their own views on this, and everyone has a right to express them.

To say things such as 'How many times do I have to say it' won't necessarily change their minds either ;) . Can't you have your say and be done?

Your opinion does count - but so does everyone eles's . We all have very valid points for and against the gruesome zombies.


No it's not that, it's just people keep asking me the same questions or giving me the same points that I've already addressed.

I never said people's opinions don't count, or they don't have a right to express their own views and I'm not trying to change anyone's minds. I'd love people's opinions and views (so I can TEAR THEM APART :mad: RAWR! lol jk :p ).

Atheist
13th Jan 2008, 16:35
Who is to say who made the zombie and what for, that it is there guarding something Lara wants is reason enough to shoot it, l do not care what it looks like, it moves, l shoot. We have been fighting walking dead things in nearly every Tomb Raider game, the state of decomposition is not really that important. The picture above is just one artists idea of a zombie, obviously the ancient powers had ways of raising the dead, if they raised some recently deceased they would look like zombies, and moan and groan the same as a mummy no doubt.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j215/aussie500/Tomb%204/Mummy2.jpg

State of decomposition? I never said anything about the state of decomposition, the state of decomposition doesn’t matter at all...:confused:

And (I have said this before, forgive me if this isn’t what you're saying) I have nothing against ancient tribal zombies with as much history as mummies. What I don't want, and what this whole thread is about is that particular "artists idea of a zombie". That's what I don't want. Everything else is fine, like I've said.

aussie500
14th Jan 2008, 04:38
A zombie is just a reanimated corpse, there were even plans at one point to have Takamoto raise a few of his dead employees to fight Lara again, perhaps they dropped that idea because they realised today's casual gamer might get a bit to frightened if they had to fight zombies. If the state of decomposition makes no difference there is no difference between a zombie, skeleton or mummy since they are all walking dead people, they all are a bit slow, mindless and a bit hard to kill since they are already dead. Although the skeletons have nothing much to say the mummies groaned and moaned, so what would be so bad about a few zombies (not that l think there will be any in Underworld) Perhaps whatever it is that animated these mummies and skeletons might still be around and animates the recently deceased mercs to stop Lara progressing any further, maybe everything dead in the underworld can be used against Lara, whether it died a couple of thousand years ago, or a few minutes ago.

Zombies would fit in fine with Tomb Raider and the Underworld, although some might not like them, that is not necessarily a reason for Crystal Dynamics not to include them. Many people are frightened of spiders but make they make a great enemy, especially now they will have more freedom of movement. Obviously Crystal Dynamics is not going to remove every enemy someone might not like, since we would be left with nothing to fight. Personally l think Crystal dynamics will go with more mythical inhabitants and guardians of the underworld, depending on which region Lara is exploring, but zombies are mentioned in many ancient cultures, so if one turns up l will not be particularly worried about it. And l have never seen Lara choose her enemies by how attractive they were, there is nothing attractive about a mummy or skeleton either, or in fact most of the more mythic/fantasy based creatures Lara has faced.

LisaB1962
14th Jan 2008, 14:14
Tomb Raider has always had and should continue to have a "creep factor." Let's face it---the solitary heroine ventures into dark and dank places where dead bodies abound. It's TOMB Raider, after all.

While I too don't really want "classic zombies" a la Night of the Living Dead in TR, the idea that the ghosts and ghouls of the disturbed tombs awaken to punish the uninvited guest is very Tomb Raider.

Anything is more intriguing than fighting endless mercs. Anything. ;)

Tomb-Dude
14th Jan 2008, 16:48
If i amcorrect (atheist correct me if i am wrong) but what i think she is trying to say is that Mummy's, skeletons ect are a lot more interesting. Where as zombies (in my opinion) arn't interesting really for a Tomb Raider game, becuase i can't really picture a zombie in the middle of egypt really protecting an artifact but a skeleton or a mummy which has awakened when you take the artifact. Is more interesting.

If something happened on the streets and say like the ground split in half and zombies poped out that would be fine, but zombies are mroe street enemies in my opinion, mummies egypt dessert levels. Hidden Tomb's.
Seriously could you actually picture a zombie just randomly in a Tomb? Maybe a skeleton? But not really a zombie?

Atheist
14th Jan 2008, 19:11
If the state of decomposition makes no difference there is no difference between a zombie, skeleton or mummy since they are all walking dead people, they all are a bit slow, mindless and a bit hard to kill since they are already dead.



Read this...

...and this...

...and this...

...and this...

...and finally this.

I shouldn’t have to repeat myself more that 5 times, but here goes:

Mummies are ancient corpses of Kings, Queens or someone of that importance. They are surrounded in stories and myths and tales and are found in tombs laden with traps and riches.
Skeletons were agile, clever and bloodthirsty guardians in TR4, they were very tricky to kill and to escape from.

Zombies? (NOT ACHIENT TRIBAL ZOMBIES OR OTHER SORTS OF ZOMBIES THAT AR'NT EXCATLY THE TYPE OF ZOMBIE I AM TALKING ABOUT) They have no agility. No meaning, no purpose, no history. Those sorts of zombies were purely made up to add horror and action into horror movies and FPS games.

Atheist
14th Jan 2008, 19:15
Tomb Raider has always had and should continue to have a "creep factor." Let's face it---the solitary heroine ventures into dark and dank places where dead bodies abound. It's TOMB Raider, after all.

While I too don't really want "classic zombies" a la Night of the Living Dead in TR, the idea that the ghosts and ghouls of the disturbed tombs awaken to punish the uninvited guest is very Tomb Raider.

Anything is more intriguing than fighting endless mercs. Anything. ;)


No, I totally agree with you, and everything you said.

It's just I don't want to shooting at a slow, bumbling, moaning, bleeding zombie. I want to be dodging wild animals or avoiding huge beasts and such.

It's not because they are undead. I love mummies and skeletons, and I would love ghosts even more. It's because they would make a terrible enemy.

Undead things, even tribal zombies or zombies with agility and good maneuvers, are okay.

It's not because they are dead and scary.

Atheist
14th Jan 2008, 19:16
If i amcorrect (atheist correct me if i am wrong) but what i think she is trying to say is that Mummy's, skeletons ect are a lot more interesting. Where as zombies (in my opinion) arn't interesting really for a Tomb Raider game.

That's right. :thumbsup:

I'm glad at least one person understands me.

Tomb-Dude
14th Jan 2008, 20:38
That's right. :thumbsup:

I'm glad at least one person understands me.


:p i'm very good at doing that lol...


But i also see the otherside of the story (sort of) about zombies having "history" and they would work depending on the level she was in, and the situation. If like the world was coming to an end, sotroms, fires and the streets half blown up then i could understand zombies, but i say again on streets.
Both side of this "arguement" are explained very well and i undestand them both. But in my opinion i am in favour of Athiest more, becuase just like her zombies aint "Tomb Raider?"

hatam1
4th Jun 2009, 23:36
agree with you
I don't want them to be

Lara's Stalker
16th Jun 2009, 08:31
Yes, I agree zombie "shot 'em up" games don't require a lot of probelm solving or intelligents. Don't read me wrong I like those types of games, but TR, to me, has always meant using your mind and commonsense to figure out probelms, not mindlessly shooting things.