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View Full Version : Interface, hud, icons, ergonomics



jordan_a
3rd Jan 2008, 12:22
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE EIDOS !

We do not want this on our computers anymore

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9964/sanstitrelt1.jpg

Make sure the hud on PC is not gigantic, keep it discreetplease, please, please.
Or if you want it to be quite large, at least allow the user to change its size, it's not complicated! ;)

Red
3rd Jan 2008, 12:56
The main problem of IW HUD was that it worked crappy with mouse and you had to do most things wuth keyboard - a complete opposite of DX1. Well, sure, you had F1-F4 keys to invoke first four tabs of the "management console", but that's it. Everithing else was controlled by mouse and it was damn good and quick (intuitive) interface.

imported_van_HellSing
3rd Jan 2008, 18:20
Consoles have little to do with the overgrown hud in IW. It's perfectly fine for a console game to have a minimal hud - an example are the Silent Hill games, where there's virtually no hud at all, save for icons when you pick something up or when your health is low.

Yes, parallell development for PC and consoles usually hurts the PC versions, but not all can be blamed on consoles. I'm not a console player, but it irks me to no end when people say stuff like IW's universal ammo was because of the Xbox version, when it was solely a design decision: other console games manage just fine with different types of ammo.

It's not that games need to be dumbed down for consoles. It's that developers these days tend to treat gamers as idiots.

Well, that was a bit harsh, but the actual reason is very close to that statement, and in no way less disturbing: casual gaming. These days, hardcore gamers are niche customers. The focus now is on casual gamers with short attention spans, who make up most of todays customers. So in turn, companies focus on what sells best: short, simple games. Games you can start up the game quickly, play for some 15 minutes, then turn off and forget about them.

SageSavage
3rd Jan 2008, 18:40
It's not that games need to be dumbed down for consoles. It's that developers these days tend to treat gamers as idiots.

Well, that was a bit harsh, but the actual reason is very close to that statement, and in no way less disturbing: casual gaming. These days, hardcore gamers are niche customers. The focus now is on casual gamers with short attention spans, who make up most of todays customers. So in turn, companies focus on what sells best: short, simple games. Games you can start up the game quickly, play for some 15 minutes, then turn off and forget about them.Exactly. And traditionally you can find way more casual gamers within the audience of consoles. Consoles have always been designed to appeal to this breed of gamers, too. It's home entertainment (aka family-friendly) and the broader the range of potential customers the better. The whole point of a console is to make gaming easier and more convenient, isn't it? (Yeah, I know there are complex titles, too... it's just a tendency)

Slack
16th Jan 2008, 23:02
Yeah, but I believe that the gamers that like to get involved in the history, and comprehend the complexity of the game are more loyal than casual gammers,for an example: most of the gammers here in forum have the Deus Ex 1 and 2 versions and will buy the third, casual gammers rarely have the complete collection of the games... I know that companies also need loyal players as a warranted profit. Deus Ex is a game that have many loyal fans.

G.A.Pster
28th Jan 2008, 00:51
I say keep the HUD to a minimum.

Restrict it to health & nano power.
I’d rather it didn’t even have crosshairs and an ammo counter.
Integrate the ammo counter into some of the guns (like in Riddik), and make it so you can aim down the sights our use a laser sight.

I really enjoyed the minimal HUD in Riddik escape from butcher bay, and the complete lack of a HUD in King Kong.

jd10013
28th Jan 2008, 02:56
It's not that games need to be dumbed down for consoles. It's that developers these days tend to treat gamers as idiots.
.

The sad truth is, in a lot of ways they're right. hopefully, they'll assign a couple people to optimizing it for the pc. Instead of just doing the pc version as an afterthough.

G.A.Pster
28th Jan 2008, 03:02
The sad truth is, in a lot of ways they're right. hopefully, they'll assign a couple people to optimizing it for the pc. Instead of just doing the pc version as an afterthough.

When I see people buying Madden and all the other EA-vil cr@p and quality games getting over looked.
It makes me think that at least 60% of the gamers are like an ignorant heard of sheep that buy whatever gets advertised the most.

jordan_a
28th Jan 2008, 10:36
Only 60?:D

Red
28th Jan 2008, 10:42
I suppose that percentage might be somewhat lower in the Europe...

gamer0004
28th Jan 2008, 12:22
I say keep the HUD to a minimum.

Restrict it to health & nano power.
I’d rather it didn’t even have crosshairs and an ammo counter.
Integrate the ammo counter into some of the guns (like in Riddik), and make it so you can aim down the sights our use a laser sight.

I really enjoyed the minimal HUD in Riddik escape from butcher bay, and the complete lack of a HUD in King Kong.

No minimal HUD please. I don't want a Hud that's really big (as in DX:IW), but I do want to know how many bullets there are left in my gun and how many clips I have in my pockets at one sight.
DX was almost perfect in that way.

ThatDeadDude
28th Jan 2008, 13:05
Yeah, I'd be perfectly happy with a HUD identical to the DX one. The only differences that I'd be really happy to see are the obligatory ones that come with the improvements in graphics. Yes, I know there's very little difference between the 2D FX of 2000 and those of now, but the one in DX is a little rough looking by today's standards even if its functionality is perfect.

Tracer Tong
28th Jan 2008, 13:18
No minimal HUD. DX1 HUD. No elliptic HUD. Window/UNIX-like HUD.

jd10013
28th Jan 2008, 13:46
I'd like to see:
a small targeting reticle in the center. don't care if its an ellipse, x, or whatever. just so long as its discrete.
a small transparent display of you augmentations. either docked to the bottom or side of the screen, but always visible.
something showing what kind, and how much ammo are in your current weapon, since hopefully there will be different ammo types
and something to show how much damage you've taken. doesn't have to be exactly like the original was, but I'd like to see something similar.

AaronJ
31st Jan 2008, 18:35
Look at the early Invisible War HUD that was in the video posted here earlier. That should be the DX3 HUD, with the exception of more item slots. Exactly like it.

O.m.a.r
31st Jan 2008, 20:49
I believe DX3 HUD could be set up like this.

-As Always place the health, energy, and compass on the top middle of the screen.

-No crosshairs instead an OPTIONAL Laser sight or scope that can be placed on any gun you chose
(Laser sight for items like Shotgun, and a scope for Sniper Rifle; And Maybe Weapons that could use both such as Pistol or SMG).

-An ammo count on left or right corners of the screen.

-Augs on the right side of the screen like in Deus Ex 1 (ps2 version)

-And a great view of the surrounding area, unblocked by pointless lines like in IW.

(Btw I’ve only played the DX games on consoles, so this may not be the best set up for a pc. But I believe it would be a good set up for console versions.)

P.s. I’ve noticed that there are very few U.S gamers who’ve played Deus Ex. Just Wondering how it became popular in Europe. Just a speculation :)

Angel/0A
31st Jan 2008, 22:15
-No crosshairs instead an OPTIONAL Laser sight or scope that can be placed on any gun you chose
(Laser sight for items like Shotgun, and a scope for Sniper Rifle; And Maybe Weapons that could use both such as Pistol or SMG)

The only issue I see with that is in DX you use the crosshairs not only to aim but to distinguish friend from foe (the built-in IFF aug). Though perhaps you could incorporate crosshairs into a targeting-like aug.

AaronJ
4th Feb 2008, 02:20
I know exactly how it will look. And it's BAAAAAAD.

Look at Tomb Raider: Legend AND Project: Snowblind. God damn, that's awful. And will they really go with the health bar again?

Draco1979
4th Feb 2008, 04:20
I really hope the people making this gets the point that we dont want the game to be made for the console but maybe as an after thought.

jjoensuu
25th Feb 2008, 23:00
This is not really about the game interface (displayed on the screen) but a piece of hardware that allows the player to control the game using his mind.

Two companies are coming out with these types of interfaces during this year:
--Emotive (www.emotiv.com)
--NeuroSky (www.neurosky.biz)

How about including compatibility with one of these into this cyberpunk saga?

IceBallz
24th Mar 2008, 15:25
I think many of us wants that augs and weapons should only be viewed in inventory and not in the HUD. Only maybe that you can see in your HUD how much ammo the enemy could have left, before he have to reload. Then maybe set in the drone view in your HUD, conbined with your view. Explored map could even be in HUD as automarking up all security cams in this hudded map view. But have inventory and all your weapons layed out in the HUD, seems not nice at all. Just keep the HUD clean from all of kind of inventory and weapon choosements. You have just to remember your chooses to your weaponbelt. Just maybe set two clean slots in your inventrory. That have space for 1 and 2 key press and this will be setup in your inventory for primary and secondary weapon choise to your weaponbelt. I hated the view of weapons and augs in the HUD in DX:IW. That should be clean of every aspect of your inventory and be set up clean from that stuff.

Inventory and HUD = seperated from others

You can't even see your choises of weapons to your weaponbelt in your HUD. If you want to know what weapons you have been choosen you have to press 1 or 2 key to see your other weapon come up. Or just press I for inventory and look up your weapon choises in the inventory, to weaponbelt. Like as augs should be in inventory and not in HUD. But biomods could be in your HUD only if you have them already, becurse those are transplanted in biological ways and attached to your brains.

dimaf1985
24th Mar 2008, 21:41
I think many of us wants that augs and weapons should only be viewed in inventory and not in the HUD. Only maybe that you can see in your HUD how much ammo the enemy could have left, before he have to reload. Then maybe set in the drone view in your HUD, conbined with your view. Explored map could even be in HUD as automarking up all security cams in this hudded map view. But have inventory and all your weapons layed out in the HUD, seems not nice at all. Just keep the HUD clean from all of kind of inventory and weapon choosements. You have just to remember your chooses to your weaponbelt. Just maybe set two clean slots in your inventrory. That have space for 1 and 2 key press and this will be setup in your inventory for primary and secondary weapon choise to your weaponbelt. I hated the view of weapons and augs in the HUD in DX:IW. That should be clean of every aspect of your inventory and be set up clean from that stuff.

Inventory and HUD = seperated from others

You can't even see your choises of weapons to your weaponbelt in your HUD. If you want to know what weapons you have been choosen you have to press 1 or 2 key to see your other weapon come up. Or just press I for inventory and look up your weapon choises in the inventory, to weaponbelt. Like as augs should be in inventory and not in HUD. But biomods could be in your HUD only if you have them already, becurse those are transplanted in biological ways and attached to your brains.

Ya this definitely key. There aren't a lot of games these days that use the inventory screen system * la DX1, STALKER, SS2, etc. But it is absolutely critical that it's part of DX3. It needs to be as comprehensive as possible, like in DX1 and have functions that are exclusive from the HUD overlay. That consoly DX2 overlay made me sick to my stomach.

GruntOwner
25th Mar 2008, 09:02
Personally, I feel the crosshair from DX1 should stay simply because it was one of the most useful crosshairs ever. It wouldn't be too hard to justify, with augmented vision in a time period where weapons are probably dessigned to project a retecule on someone's visor. The main reason it was useful was because it closed in on the target so you actually had an excuse to miss them or hit them at certain rnages, where most games would just say the bullet hits where you aim or say it's out of range. Anyone here played mass effect? If they could make a non consoley version of that that allowed an ammo meter, localised health and biomods without the game pausing menu, that could work pretty well. Emphesis on the could.

m72
25th Mar 2008, 12:47
I absolutely hate the IW HUD, i suggest to get back to the original DX HUD

gamer0004
27th Mar 2008, 09:45
I think many of us wants that augs and weapons should only be viewed in inventory and not in the HUD. Only maybe that you can see in your HUD how much ammo the enemy could have left, before he have to reload. Then maybe set in the drone view in your HUD, conbined with your view. Explored map could even be in HUD as automarking up all security cams in this hudded map view. But have inventory and all your weapons layed out in the HUD, seems not nice at all. Just keep the HUD clean from all of kind of inventory and weapon choosements. You have just to remember your chooses to your weaponbelt. Just maybe set two clean slots in your inventrory. That have space for 1 and 2 key press and this will be setup in your inventory for primary and secondary weapon choise to your weaponbelt. I hated the view of weapons and augs in the HUD in DX:IW. That should be clean of every aspect of your inventory and be set up clean from that stuff.

Inventory and HUD = seperated from others

You can't even see your choises of weapons to your weaponbelt in your HUD. If you want to know what weapons you have been choosen you have to press 1 or 2 key to see your other weapon come up. Or just press I for inventory and look up your weapon choises in the inventory, to weaponbelt. Like as augs should be in inventory and not in HUD. But biomods could be in your HUD only if you have them already, becurse those are transplanted in biological ways and attached to your brains.

The DX inventory screen was integrated in the HUD ('cause everything was a screen projected on your eye)...
It was fine that way. Makes sense.

IceBallz
27th Mar 2008, 09:53
The DX inventory screen was integrated in the HUD ('cause everything was a screen projected on your eye)...
It was fine that way. Makes sense.

It was not whole inventory in DX. It was only macros. Inventory was "I" key. But like in DX2 you had no inventory = "I" key, it all was in the HUD.

gamer0004
27th Mar 2008, 10:21
It was not whole inventory in DX. It was only macros. Inventory was "I" key. But like in DX2 you had no inventory = "I" key, it all was in the HUD.

That's not what I meant.
You press the F1 key (or "I", didn't know "I"worked too :P) and that's your inventory. But that inventory screen is projected on your eye. The idea behind the HUD is that it's basically some screens projected on your eyes, and the inventory screen was one of them. It depends on what you call the HUD ;)

IceBallz
27th Mar 2008, 12:05
That's not what I meant.
You press the F1 key (or "I", didn't know "I"worked too :P) and that's your inventory. But that inventory screen is projected on your eye. The idea behind the HUD is that it's basically some screens projected on your eyes, and the inventory screen was one of them. It depends on what you call the HUD ;)

LMAO !!! CONFUSING !!! HAHAHAHAHA !!!

Well i say the same thing, i think. But in some different way. Well, it was better like in DX. When i speak about HUD, its the player screen (the screen that is shown while you are playing in action)... Inventory is the same like a interface and not a part of HUD for me... From inventory [interface] you could make macros to stuff in your inventory that came up to your HUD [play screen]... Told the same thing with you from beginning, i think.... LMAO !!!

Vasarto
8th Apr 2008, 02:25
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE EIDOS !

We do not want this on our computers anymore

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9964/sanstitrelt1.jpg

Make sure the hud on PC is not gigantic, keep it discreetplease, please, please.
Or if you want it to be quite large, at least allow the user to change its size, it's not complicated! ;)

Yes. Let us change its color and have it be transperent. Would be really awsome if it was the exact same HUD as in DX1..Just better looking. So same size and keep everything where it is ect. Just make it more shinny!

SomaMech
12th Apr 2008, 16:42
If they don't optimise the game for mouse and keyboard, I will not be purchasing the game. I'm sick of console games on my PC! I havn't bought a console port since IW as I can't stand everything being so simplified.

Blade_hunter
12th Apr 2008, 16:58
On the new huds like that the only good thing was the colors, the rest are bad, I don't like the DX IW hud because it's huge a HUD is better when it's more tiny
And this circle form is hugly It makes the rest of the screen .....
Argh I can't define the huglyness of this HUD, but i can say it's awfull

In DX 1 we have a good HUD, the base gray colors aren't beautyfull, but the customization of this hud makes it better
and it's form is well integrated :)
if I can I try to draw something an other thing as I showed before (A modified screen of DX 1)

Larington
12th Apr 2008, 17:29
I wish more games allowed customizing the size/shape of the user interface beyond just transparency or colour. That DX2 hud sure feels intrusive even though technically it doesn't take up that much space on screen.

Ghostdog
13th Apr 2008, 19:40
Look at the early Invisible War HUD that was in the video posted here earlier Thanks, you got me to watch the old 'trailer' from E3 2002. That HUD is actually pretty nice. The game looked so promising back then. I know I´ve seen a newer version of the game after E3'02, with the retinal HUD, but I can´t find the video on my PC.

I do have to say, though, that I liked the idea of the Invisible War-HUD - having it augmented in to your retina. To me, that was one of the few things that made me go "Oh really? That´s a cool idea". The actual final implementation didn´t of course work very well - but I always liked the idea. If they could make something similar but less intrusive (spelling?) and annoying - that could work. In IW it just looked very poor, while it looked a lot better in an earlier version. I wonder what ever happened to that one?

Voltaire
13th Apr 2008, 21:21
I wish more games allowed customizing the size/shape of the user interface beyond just transparency or colour. That DX2 hud sure feels intrusive even though technically it doesn't take up that much space on screen.

I agree totally. It just seems so claustrophobic on screen, despite not taking much screen space up. I think it's the fact that it kind of assaults the screen space from all angles...

SemiAnonymous
14th Apr 2008, 01:53
I just want the DX HUD, with a few minor aesthetic changes, I don't want that IW crap, or something new and possibly worse.

Apollonius
14th May 2008, 06:43
DX was fine to start with but the developers still had the ingenuity to enable the user to choose not to display it if they didn't want to anyway. DX:IW was a nightmare and I still scratch my head in disbelief at some of the backwards steps that were made in it.

Keep it simple.
Less is more.
That it that.

SomaMech
14th May 2008, 09:56
Keep it simple.
Less is more.
That it that.

Noooooo! That's what they were attempting to do in Invisible War. They simplified everything for the console controllers and look how that turned out! We ended up with a UI that was easier to use with our arrow keys than the mouse. PC USERS HAVE A KEYBOARD AND MOUSE! We can drag and drop inventory items, scroll through text, click the menu buttons of our choice instantly without having to cycle through buttons with our arrow keys etc.

I say keep it simple LOOKING, but with a hidden complexity that allows non-console users (Or anyone that has no interest in a game that's simplified in an attempt to reach a wider audience...) to spend alot of time customising their character, weapons, inventory or reading through convo logs, datacube logs etc.

I don't know about anyone else... but I actually used the note-writing feature in Deus Ex 1. Whoever decided to take this out in IW, and replace it with a system that instantly opens any door/chest/security terminal providing the user has come in contact with the code, was clearly getting mixed up with Doom. They may as well have scattered different coloured key-cards around the world.

Voltaire
14th May 2008, 15:47
My bet is that they make the DX3 HUD customisable i.e. players can choose a HUD from either DX1 style boxed macros, IW iris-monitor shenanigans or whatever they dream up in terms of an original layout.

Remember that DX is entirely set towards adaption etc. Trust me it makes sense that they do this.

Blade_hunter
14th May 2008, 18:23
A good HUD must display the maximum amount of informations, and keep the vision clear, and the informations easy to find and to read

The DX 1 Hud has some good things, but the ammo / clip display must be close to the weapon hand, we can see by icons the disposable ammo types and by a color they're approximate quantity if we have a good quantity or not we can se the fire mode of the weapon too; the ammo loaded the number of shots in the clip in a big number and in a little numbers we can see the clips and the number of cartridges if the gun uses two ammo at the same time we can see the two ammo types .
The inventory is on the right location but I think it's better to put it on the bottom center of the screen. on this inventory we can see the ammunitions loaded and a color thats display if we have a good number of shots or not for each ammo loaded. if the weapon is an assault rifle with an under barrel grenade launcher we can see the two ammo types; because the twice ammo are loaded; if we have a shotgun with a buckshot ammo and a slug ammo we can see only the ammo loaded, because this gun can use only one ammo at a time.
The heath, bio enregy, armor, body distplay must be on the right top of the screen, we can see each body parts like DX 1 and the health of head and torso; the other parts are only coloured, we have an overall heath bar and under the heath bar we can see the bio energy bar on the left of the body we can see a poison bar and the oxygen bar.
The biomods must be display on the left top of the screen, we can see two column of biomods; the passive biomods have 3 state the auto state and the state when they are active or not if the auto state is inactive you can't use your spacial ability without engage the auto mode, the active biomods have only two states like the previous games.
The top center of the screen we can see the compass (like DX IW but much tiny) under the compass we have the dialog box like DX 1

We can use all of these in a compact screen like the first game

For the menus we can use a system that uses Hud parts to select what we want to see the inventory tool bar for the inventory, the health tool bar for the heath screen, the biomods tool bar for the biomods screen, the top center display to show the logs, missions objectives, the pictures, the vids and the notes.

For the pickup we can une a close system as SS2 but when we can see a weapon or an item we can choose to pick it up or unload the item of its ammo or charger for example
a flachlight you want only the cells with this system you can chose to pick it up or pick up only the cells

I think that's is close to the original game but we have some changes, the idea of customisable interface can be the best but we must have some base elements like 3 - 4 huds base models and each part are customizable to make a custom HUD for example

jordan_a
14th May 2008, 18:40
What about the availability to play with no HUD for experienced players?

I mean if the game is very similar to the first DX, many players won't need any HUD once they've played the game! They might want to replay with a bare screen.

Voltaire
14th May 2008, 18:54
What about the availability to play with no HUD for experienced players?

I mean if the game is very similar to the first DX, many players won't need any HUD once they've played the game! They might want to replay with a bare screen.

I'm tentative about this one. I'd hate to run out of BE just 'cuz I left an aug on by mistake.

SomaMech
14th May 2008, 22:09
What about the availability to play with no HUD for experienced players?

I mean if the game is very similar to the first DX, many players won't need any HUD once they've played the game! They might want to replay with a bare screen.

I'm sure if anybody wants to play without a HUD, they could simply modify a config file. Nothing involving too much effort.
The HUD should be as minimalist as possible and I truelly hope the actual UI system will contain lots of options and be as customisable as possible. (Hopefully a bit like Neocron's UI system!)

The key thing for me is that the UI system is highly responsive and optimised for the use of a mouse. PC users got royally stitched up with the Invisible War UI. It was an absolute joke and quite upsetting that we paid money to play a console game simply thrown onto PC. There was even a vibration setting greyed out in the controller settings! Not only that, but if you open the system config file, you can actually see areas of code contain the word 'Xbox'. :(

Blade_hunter
15th May 2008, 13:32
It's for that reason the custom hud can be the greatest solution a game with some customizable parts can be better than a game with non custom parts Unreal was the first game with a true customizable HUD, the firsts games that allows this possibility is duke nukem and others games with the build engine.
DX 1 has somewhat the same features because it uses an Unreal engine most of Hud parts looks like UT HUD ....
The DX 2 HUD looks like the TRON 2.0 mods interface, and the universal ammo was inspired by this game I think. (Even if TRON may uses a litetech engine I don't remember exactly).
I think the dev's wants to put the informations more accessible to the player and more easy to read, with this kind of HUD we have the informations because it's in the screen center, but be main problem is to see the environment with a HUD like this we have a sort of obstacle between our vision and the borders of the screen.
A "light" HUD can be a solution in the firsts DX 2 screens the HUD is less intrusive than the actual DX HUD, even if I don't like the fact the first DX 2 HUS allows you only 5 weapon quick slots.
Bioshock even if it looks like a "console" game the HUD is Lighter than some console games
The TRON 2.0 HUD is Light too
The Unreal 1 & 2 are light
The Crysis HUD is light and looks like the Farcry HUD
The Doom 3 and Quake games have a light HUD
The Red Faction HUD is light.

In My opinion a light HUD isn't a good solution, I prefer a Hud like DX 1/UT even if SS2 have good HUD and SIN (sin and wages of sin).
See the maximum amount of informations in small screen elements in borders.
I think small Icons allows a good amount of informations and keeps a large screen vision

rhalibus
20th May 2008, 06:14
The DX1 HUD was almost perfect, especially at a high res (1152x864) which made the icons small and unobtrusive. Color coded damage, bio-energy and compass in a small graphic on the upper left, augs on the upper right, hot keys on the lower right, and current weapon info on the lower left. No more, no less. I've also been playing it recently with the cross hairs off--they only show up now when I'm aiming or close to something I can affect.

An important thing to keep is the clear mid-left and mid-right views--you really need your peripheral vision to play immersively.

Another is the color coded damage graphic. After playing DX1 again, I'm even more convinced now that this design choice really gives a feel of how your body is truly damaged--much more than a simple unrealistic "health" bar. When your torso and left arm are both in the red, you feel a lot more in jeopardy then if your "health" bar is almost at zero.

Please Eidos Montreal, keep the complex damage graphic!

Blade_hunter
27th Jul 2008, 22:24
Since some posts like hud, and some last ones, I want to talk about the ergonomics of the game, because:
In DX 1 that wasn't it's strong point even if we have well think menus and a well made HUD
In DX 2 that wasn't a problem because the game is too simplified when we compare it with the previous title.

I want to talk about menus, some action state like the fact we read datacubes, make a conversation, use terminals, the biomods activation, weapon selection, etc ...
I've proposed a system that can could work in with consoles and PC, I don't think my proposed system is the best because Only one or two persons give an opinion about it.

I want to see if someone have ideas about a system or elements, for an ergonomic system.

And see if someone have suggestions about the fact when we do an action what it happen ?
For example what happened when we use a computer or a terminal ....

jordan_a
27th Jul 2008, 22:35
I like it when you're interacting with computers or terminal the game doesn't stop, pause.

HouseOfPain
27th Jul 2008, 22:42
I like it when you're interacting with computers or terminal the game doesn't stop, pause.

Did you happen to see any HUD on your trip to Montreal?

eh?

Come on, spill the beans, at least console us to the fact thats its better/worse T__T

jordan_a
27th Jul 2008, 22:44
I did, it sounds good. You shouldn't worry about that I think they understood us.

HouseOfPain
27th Jul 2008, 22:46
I did, it sounds good. You shouldn't worry about that I think they understood us.

=)

That makes me feel so good Jordan, you dont understand how good that makes me feel >_<.

This is the one game im hoping will be amazing, since Deus Ex pretty much shaped me for what I am as a person (that and Battle.Net)

Im glad you went, if anybody, in the community. Eidos can trust you with your damn tight lips but you at least know the pain us die-hard fans share.

thank you =)

Kevyne-Shandris
27th Jul 2008, 22:51
=)

That makes me feel so good Jordan, you dont understand how good that makes me feel >_<.

Especially if he's happy, and if it's because he got his wish from post one. A wish thousands of DX players want as reality!

:thumbsup:

Blade_hunter
27th Jul 2008, 23:32
I have a suggestion to made about the computers / terminal interaction
It can looks stupid but I propose the idea as well

Interact with terminals / computers never stop the game
But the idea is more about visuals and the use of the visuals

I just want to see the screen content when I use and when I don't use the terminal / computer ...

Absentia
27th Jul 2008, 23:43
I dunno if anyone's ever played the game Neocron, but i quite liked the way the HUD worked in that game. mostly similar to System Shock 2 I think, although I didn't play much of SS2. Neocron is a post-nuclear, cyberpunk-themed FPS MMORPG, which has a great concept and great visuals but sadly is rather boring, has a very steep difficulty curve, and has very little players or generally people who can actually help you.

But anyhow, the way the HUD was is that once you press the button to go into the hud, you then have different windows that you can drag around freely, resizing or closing them as you will. Things like inventory, missions, skills etc. It was useful in that you can view several things at the same time.

Lets apply to DX: You open your inventory and your damage/health window at the same time. You assess whether it's a good idea to use the medkit or not, because perhaps you've only been shot in your left arm and therefore it's not such a problem to you, or maybe you've been shot in the chest pretty badly and it'd be dangerous not to heal yourself and risk being shot one more time in the chest and dying. Yet another thing I loved on DX - you can be shot in multiple places, and each of them has different effects. Your arm could be totally obliterated, but that wouldn't stop you walking.

Back to Neocron. You access this HUD by pressing a button which then freezes your movement (you can still see whats happenning in-game only you cant move and obviously your screen is covered in windows). Also like in DX there is a quick-access bar that you can drag and drop items into and use your number keys or mousewheel.

Also, and this is VERY important imo:
When the main HUD is opened, PAUSE THE GAME!. I can't stress how important that is to me. I hated that on STALKER I wanted to heal myself in the middle of a gunfight, and while i dug around for a medkit i was getting my ass kicked. So far, opening the HUD has paused the game on both DXs, so it's probably not a problem.

Blade_hunter
28th Jul 2008, 01:01
I talk in a thread to a concept not a true hud concept but how we can use it.

When we are on the menus
We have the access to
Inventory - Augs - Health - Skills - Goals / notes - Conversations - Images - Logs

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/4774/dxinventoryxa7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/6804/deusex2008012504291374oe7.png (http://imageshack.us)

About your proposal It can be practiceful but we loose the description / Keys / Ammo bar on the right side....
But it depends if you talk about to apply this idea with exactly the same design or not
But your idea is and stay interesting but i think some modifications is needed to put the health and the inventory to the same screen ...

Fen
28th Jul 2008, 09:09
Also, and this is VERY important imo:
When the main HUD is opened, PAUSE THE GAME!. I can't stress how important that is to me. I hated that on STALKER I wanted to heal myself in the middle of a gunfight, and while i dug around for a medkit i was getting my ass kicked. So far, opening the HUD has paused the game on both DXs, so it's probably not a problem.

I think it promotes preparation before a fight. Just chuck the medkit on your hotbar if you want to select it fast. I see the menu/inventory system as like opening up a PDA or your bag. Why would anyone stop shooting at you when you suddenly opened up your bag?

If theres a possibility of getting into a gunfight, you should be prepared for it. Guns that are low or out of ammo should be reloaded, bioelectics should be charged and items that will play a role in the battle should be at the ready.

Absentia
28th Jul 2008, 10:30
I think it promotes preparation before a fight. Just chuck the medkit on your hotbar if you want to select it fast. I see the menu/inventory system as like opening up a PDA or your bag. Why would anyone stop shooting at you when you suddenly opened up your bag?

If theres a possibility of getting into a gunfight, you should be prepared for it. Guns that are low or out of ammo should be reloaded, bioelectics should be charged and items that will play a role in the battle should be at the ready.

I get that it forces you to be prepared, however:
You can't really apply realism to looking through your inventory like that. If this truly was real, and I opened my bag during a gunfight, I might use one hand to hold a gun and the other to blindly feel around inside my bag, constantly switching between looking at the battle and looking at the contents of my bag. This kind of multitasking is possible in real life, but as this would be frustrating or impossible to do in a video game environment, I generally think it works better if the inventory pauses the game. If the way STALKER's inventory works is more realistic, then applied to real life - that means when getting out an item, you would stop still in your tracks, get out your bag, and have your eyes totally transfixed on the bag until you get out what you wanted, ignoring everything else that is happening around you.

Blade_hunter
28th Jul 2008, 15:31
I think about a mean to use different items biomods and some things but in a low amount of time.
Like many games we need to be prepared but some tactic switching in a low amount of time

In SS2 I loved the fact our inventory was around our vision and keep the center of the screen more clear than many games
In DX we pause the game ok but it pause the environment is a bit unrealistic no ?
I think we must keep it but I want to use with the normal system a real time system

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/8557/sshock21pu0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3786/00107337ph0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

In SS2 the game isn't paused we must find a secure location to manage our inventory, etc

In DX we have the weapon bar and the biomods bar, that things aren't used in SS2, those things allow us to see more informations without opening the inventory screen and have a quick access to it we know what are our weapons and with what ammo the weapon is loaded

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4686/deusex20031226171856qf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

In SS2 we have a semi complete HUD it was well though but DX give more informations than SS2.
DX hud is more complete than SS2
SS2 have the advantage to get a "more integrated" menus with the rest of the HUD

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/503/deusexiw6mi2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

In the DX 2 HUD we keep the fact we got an easy access to the informations, but it's too intrusive if this HUD was more on the screen borders with smaller icons I think it will be better

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2797/abcmodhud4sy0xu9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Stalker HUD, it's closer to the SS2 HUD, but the inventory screen is more like DX 1 or Chrome

The best menus and a hud close to DX was the UT 1 HUD and menus

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/5228/modsutilissmapchoisiehc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1746/pistonaaircomprimsaufqumg5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Like DX we have the weapon bar, like DX we have the heath scheme and the ammo bar is with the weapon bar (the game UT 3 is a bit similar)

I display those HUDs for some reasons, I proposed my system in the consoles thread, but I want to talk about the HUD, menus and the system that can be fitted to DX 3

About the system Is anyone have an idea to use all DX 1 stuff quickly with a low amount of controls ?

Kevyne-Shandris
28th Jul 2008, 20:08
I display those HUDs for some reasons, I proposed my system in the consoles thread, but I want to talk about the HUD, menus and the system that can be fitted to DX 3

Well, one thing to that is so good about DX HUD and GUI was the theme. It wasn't just a dull box. Even it was a work of Art. That little "extra" that isn't seen in the interfaces of level bars and just text wrapped around a border.

It also didn't completely cover the screen (anyone playing EQII? Almost the entire real estate is covered). Less is more for immersion, as you're not sidetracked with every other icon known to man. One inventory bar; mod strip; health graphic (which was needed to know when your legs were almost gone!); and compass. Simple and elegant.

It's those small things, like the graphics for the HUD/GUI, that is often overlooked but adds to the overall theme.

Blade_hunter
28th Jul 2008, 21:18
What is EQII ? can you put a link or expand the acronym, please ?

For the HUD, and UI I want to talk about more about the ergonomics, not really about the colors or the graphics, it's more about the use that can we do with the hud icons

And I want to talk about the ingame menus, yes In DX the were great but I think we can add something closer to the operating systems, like the old unreal tournament

The menus in this game are the best of the best, because it was the only menu that allow us to keep the screen clear

Kevyne-Shandris
28th Jul 2008, 23:08
What is EQII ? can you put a link or expand the acronym, please ?

Everquest 2.

This is a HUD/GUI you can get as a mod to revamp the default (as you'll need it!)...

http://www.eq2interface.com/downloads/full4710.jpg

Notice what a mess that is (and that's suppose to be the improvement)?

DX HUD/GUI is elegant. It's simple, it's Art, and it doesn't ruin the view!


For the HUD, and UI I want to talk about more about the ergonomics, not really about the colors or the graphics, it's more about the use that can we do with the hud icons

You failed to get the meaning? It's not just the "colors and graphics" it's functionality and how it looks to the user. If the HUD/GUI blocks your view -- no matter how ergonomic it is -- do you think gamers will be peachy about it? If it look like crap, do you think folks will enjoy looking at it for hours?

No. No. No.

And when you speak of ergonomics for this part of game design, the best is just using the keyboard, as it's faster and doesn't require too much mouse clicking and moving (which is horrid to the hand and wrist).

Ever do any 3D modelling? Ever heard of Wings3D? Do you know why folks love that program (and despite having 3DMax or Maya will still us it)? It's because over 90% of the screen is nothing but the viewer, and every function (short of options for obvious reasons) can be keyboarded. I can't use other 3D software now because everything else is clunky, ugly, non intuitive and yes, not ergonomically friendly. They got it right, as they concentrate on ergonomics and function.

So from what I reading from you is ergonomics isn't what you're really interested in, you're more interested in placement itself. That's a different topic. If the trend of MMOs show, everything can be moved and placed as you want it -- it's not locked down. Personally, I prefer that as I can move the icons around to what I use the most, or even want to see, and even hide the ones that is used only sparingly.

Blade_hunter
29th Jul 2008, 00:29
In your screen we have too much icons, as you say it's not good and I don't want too much icons.


Off topic :About the 3D modeling software I use blender :D

The ideas is a bit about this, yes, the fact we can hide show every informations we want but in the original DX we can do some of this things.

And won't talk only about placement

My suggestion in the console thread, was the fact we can use only the mouse and one touch to change weapons and use the biomods
The button disable the aim during the selection, the mouse become a mouse cursor and we can select with this cursor, the items in the quick bar and activate / deactivate the biomods like by clicking on a icon

The moving buttons can be always used, but i think the main improvement of it is the fact we can add more functions to the DX hud and we never lose the main controls (moving buttons and the mouse)


I want some comments about this system and a proposal for an other system

I have only one player that gives an answer about it....

Kevyne-Shandris
29th Jul 2008, 02:07
Putting up fingers as a cross at the sight of Blender3D...."Back, back, back!!" :D

Point in ergonomics is to reduce repetitive movements to reduce strain (and in this case eyes/fingers/hands/wrists). Right clicking isn't very ergonomical, let alone clicking anything over and over and over. In web design to make accessible sites, things like navigation bars/panels are moved to the right of the screen to reduce the cross screen movement of the mouse (and with widescreen becoming more popular, it's getting to be a l-o-n-g transverse). Since knowing this, I now make all webpages this way, and it really does help, especially on sites with a lot of links and archives. If auto linking didn't have it's pitfalls, even clicking links wouldn't be necessary.

But with the game, it's best that every menu and menu bar can be moved and hidden if need be. That way gamers could put the menus on the right side of the screen (notice DX has it that way?).

Blade_hunter
29th Jul 2008, 10:19
Yes the menus can be hidden like the bars to lighten the HUD like DX 1

It's difficult to make some explanations but I will take the example with a DX screen

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4858/nailedpt0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

With this HUD I just want to be able to click on the biomods icons or weapons, another thing we can do is use the health icon to cure ourself by clicking on the body parts or refill the our BE by clicking on it (this will automatically use medkits for the health or biocells for the bioenergy bar if we have a sufficient supply of them.

For example you want to use the light
instead of using the F12 button we can use a button to switch the mouse (like in menus), and click to the light biomod in the HUD to put on the light and click again to put off the light
When the task is done we release the button

For the modularity of the menus I think we want something like the DX 1 menus or even maybe better, but my suggestion about the ergonomics, was more to use main controls like biomods and select weapons without pause the game and without going to inventory or biomod screen, just by using the HUD elements.

Kevyne-Shandris
29th Jul 2008, 11:27
For example you want to use the light
instead of using the F12 button we can use a button to switch the mouse (like in menus), and click to the light biomod in the HUD to put on the light and click again to put off the light
When the task is done we release the button

Then the game will become like that icon mess in EQII, where everything has an icon or fillbar. Should have the ability to keyboard everything and do away with the HUD/GUI all together -- why spoil the view and be reminded it is a game?

What I liked about BF2142, was the ability for every mode to change the key bindings. So in infantry mode you have your favorite keys binded on the mouse+keyboard+game controller; then in flight mode, different keys binded for a joystick; and in vehicle mode you can bind keys for a wheel device.

Games are offering a lot more ingame options these days, and just keyboard+mouse bindings aren't going to be enough (as illustrated with the use of the CTL+ and ALT+ keys). I could fill almost 3/4 of 128 keys on my game controller on some games, as it is.

Icons look pretty, but because there's going to be more options than in 2000 available, need alternative means to do your stuff -- and not block the view of the screen (not everyone is going to have widescreen monitors, that's still a niche market). If not, it's going to be that EQII mess.

René
29th Jul 2008, 12:05
Everquest 2.

This is a HUD/GUI you can get as a mod to revamp the default (as you'll need it!)...

http://www.eq2interface.com/downloads/full4710.jpg

Notice what a mess that is (and that's suppose to be the improvement)?

Wow. Is he trying to make his interface look like crap? Simplicity rocks. Look at the iPod.

Kevyne-Shandris
29th Jul 2008, 12:21
Wow. Is he trying to make his interface look like crap? Simplicity rocks. Look at the iPod.

That's the improvement, and believe me, it is. At least I wouldn't be playing that game through a peep hole, like with the default HUD/GUI...

http://home.comcast.net/~deus_ex_machina/img/EQ2_000012.jpg

Please, please, PLEASE none of that!!

Blade_hunter
29th Jul 2008, 12:54
Stop talking about EQII, i never wanted to use so much icons. we can use a lower number of them and keep the game clear ...

If we use the DX HUD with the same icons We can use them to make a good use, if we combine it with some automatisms, thats not a problem.
we have a weapon bar and a biomod bar theres 20 icons with a pretty good size
And if you want to use key controllers my system never will replace completely the keyboard
Do you play freelancer, the icons on the hud can be clicked, no ? and for me it was the first space shooter that can be maneuverable with the keyboard and the mouse
you got a system close to my description and the ability to use the keyboard like your description alt + key or ctl + key
but you have always choices, i never wanted to submit a system that will replace all.
to select a weapon in some games we have the wheel, the key numbers or keys for weapon cycle

I never wanted to use a HUD with ton of icons just the essentials and they can be hidden or appear only when you want you are on the select mode

Kevyne-Shandris
29th Jul 2008, 13:22
Stop talking about EQII, i never wanted to use so much icons. we can use a lower number of them and keep the game clear ...

Blade, it's one thing to seed a forum, but demanding folks to "see" what you "see" isn't easy, as even I can't understand what you're posting about.

The EQII issue is an example of how far HUD/GUIs can get carried away with placement of 1001 icons, and an example to avoid. We can only go by examples to describe it, and hopefully those pics does what words can't!

Rene picked up on it -- less is more. And yes, that's v-e-r-y true!!

Augmented Cactuar
29th Jul 2008, 13:34
Just have it so you can hold a modifier key to regain control of the mouse in "cursor" mode, ie: your character won't look around if you move about but you'll see an arrow on-screen. Then you can click the aug you need, let go of the modifier key and keep playing. That would keep MMO fans/clickers happy but still keep the shortcuts (fully customizable too) for everyone else, just like in the original Deus Ex.

Kevyne-Shandris
29th Jul 2008, 14:48
Just have it so you can hold a modifier key to regain control of the mouse in "cursor" mode, ie: your character won't look around if you move about but you'll see an arrow on-screen. Then you can click the aug you need, let go of the modifier key and keep playing. That would keep MMO fans/clickers happy but still keep the shortcuts (fully customizable too) for everyone else, just like in the original Deus Ex.

Good compromise.

In Silent Hunter 4, they have the click the screen itself (anywhere but the buttons) to go from action to HUD mode, and due to the lag that game has, it may even take a couple of clicks to get out of action mode. That would hamper more than help in a FPS/RPG game, as you can DIE if you can't change modes quickly!

Blade_hunter
29th Jul 2008, 17:13
Just have it so you can hold a modifier key to regain control of the mouse in "cursor" mode, ie: your character won't look around if you move about but you'll see an arrow on-screen. Then you can click the aug you need, let go of the modifier key and keep playing. That would keep MMO fans/clickers happy but still keep the shortcuts (fully customizable too) for everyone else, just like in the original Deus Ex.

This is what i proposed

a switch mode to use the biomods icons by clicking on them even if I'm not a fan of mmo's ,because i don't play to them ...

About what I said I'm sorry ....

iWait
29th Jul 2008, 18:32
Meh, almost all MMOs are like that. One of the reasons I decided to stop playing WoW and sell my accounts for RL Monies (With a net gain of 70$).

Kevyne-Shandris
29th Jul 2008, 19:00
Meh, almost all MMOs are like that. One of the reasons I decided to stop playing WoW and sell my accounts for RL Monies (With a net gain of 70$).

Can sell legit plat for more. How kids are paying their subscriptions. If the market is stable, $3+ a coin. Was high as $7 at one time.

MrPibbs
5th Nov 2008, 04:45
Please, Please, Pleeeease hear me out.

Don't use the terrible circular menu from DX2 or any other weird menu system. The one in DX2 gave me terrible migraines. A drop down menu system would work fine. Keep it simple and above all: FUNCTIONAL. Don't try to pimp it out with a million crazy effects. You want people to focus on what's going on in the game rather than a fancy menu system.

GmanPro
5th Nov 2008, 04:53
Fallout 3's Hud is really simple. It's got your health on one side with a compass, and your action points on the other side with the condition of your weapon, with a small cross hair. There's plenty of good ways to do the Hud, and only really a few wrong ways to do it. So hopefully EM doesn't try anything stupid here...

And I like how the inventory management is handled through your characters Pip Boy in Fallout 3, which is cool cause its actually an item on your person. Maybe AJ can have an aug that works kinda like a Pip Boy.

serene_chaos
5th Nov 2008, 04:56
what, an augmentation for sorting items? that's unnecessary. he'll just shove everything in his backpack.

GmanPro
5th Nov 2008, 04:58
Nah dude, your character doesn't shove everything into his Pip Boy now does he? It's just a neat way of presenting the inventory/ character page is all...

K^2
5th Nov 2008, 05:12
I'm not sure I like Pip Boy. Using PDAs for menus has gotten WAY to popular lately. I blame Doom III. I think that's where the trend started.

Having it as an aug hard-wired into the brain would work much better. I think this is what DX HUD was hinting at, with info link, targeting system, and everything.

GmanPro
5th Nov 2008, 05:15
Yeah that would work too. I just liked how the Pip Boy felt like it was real and part of your character and not just some random generic menu.

spm1138
5th Nov 2008, 05:52
I agree the menu's were fiddly but what was wrong with DX2's HUD exactly?

It's slightly awkwardly arranged in a circle (monitors aren't round. I know, it was meant to be retinal) but the basic arrangement and functionality was OK I thought.

I preferred the fullsize compass. The tiny corner one is u/s. Waypoints would have been nice. The inventory icons at the edges and set to fade out I liked. Having a big block of stuff at the top or bottom is kind of obstructing.

I'd probably copy HL2's simple ammo indicator on or near the crosshair.

The health and energy bars are kind of way in the corners but I'm not sure where else you put them unless you have them just inside the inventory and implant icons.

Everything should fade out or minimise if it has no information to display.

The colour scheme options are nice.

Letting the player drag stuff around and select options would be really cool although also really non-essential.

System Shock had a pretty good HUD if I recall.

ZylonBane
5th Nov 2008, 06:45
It's slightly awkwardly arranged in a circle (monitors aren't round. I know, it was meant to be retinal) but the basic arrangement and functionality was OK I thought.
That round shape is precisely why the basic arrangement was NOT okay. It forced a huge amount of the UI into the players' direct field of vision, as opposed to being tucked away in the corners like most games have the common sense to do. Even with the auto-hide option enabled, it made the game feel like you were playing it looking through a tube.

The cherry on top of IW's stupidity is that an actual in-your-head HUD would *not* be eyeball-shaped, since the only way for something like that to work would be to tap directly into your optic nerve. IW's interface designer seemed to think that Alex had a tiny little projector embedded in the back of his eyeball.

Lazarus Ledd
5th Nov 2008, 07:05
I'm not all for it but i'd be cool if they added a flavour of minimalistic approach.

Since the game is trying to corect what DX2 did and doing it so in DX spiritual way, some improvments of DX systems should be done, say... 2D animated menus, like in the movie Minority Report with Tom Cruise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-CFJyEQZ-c&feature=related

And there was a movie with Michael Douglas..i think it's "Disclosure", in a similar way, but he was wearing a 3D helmet and a handglove, the moment i refer to is when he's putting on all that gear and entering a digital virtual reality world merely to get to a filing cabinet to open drawers to read documents -- a filing cabinet that computer technology was supposed to replace :lol:

So I like a menu in that spirit, more in like Minority Report way, but to be more uniterruptive for outsides. AJ should see animated menus in his eyes/head, and not from some hidden projection that open from inside his head.

Heck, If at year 2027 we don't need the reptile part of the brain, they can freely install the projector there and with series of mirrors sticking from charactes side like Inspector Gadget, lead the projection to our front.

Inspector Gadget????? I wish only for the 3d version of AJ, to look cooler that that IG guy, pfff:D

spm1138
5th Nov 2008, 14:14
That round shape is precisely why the basic arrangement was NOT okay. It forced a huge amount of the UI into the players' direct field of vision, as opposed to being tucked away in the corners like most games have the common sense to do. Even with the auto-hide option enabled, it made the game feel like you were playing it looking through a tube.

The cherry on top of IW's stupidity is that an actual in-your-head HUD would *not* be eyeball-shaped, since the only way for something like that to work would be to tap directly into your optic nerve. IW's interface designer seemed to think that Alex had a tiny little projector embedded in the back of his eyeball.

The same arrangement square works much better.

I never really felt like I was playing through a tube on PC but I agree inventory, inactive augs, phone etc. should be at the edges of the screen. I like the thin side placement better than the chunk at the top bottom.

You actually want some vital information right where you can see it:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/f-16_hud_020410_09.jpg

Particularly combat relevant stuff.

I agree IW's had too much extra stuff visible all the time.

GmanPro
5th Nov 2008, 17:35
Just keep it simple and functional please.

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo255/GmanPro/EpicPowerArmor.jpg?t=1225909905

System Shock 2 was even simpler...

http://www.uwsp.edu/Education/kbuchana/gaming/analysis_system_shock/ss2_screenshot2.jpg

murphy7801
6th Nov 2008, 04:06
well
1. i like the dx1 health body metre i hate regeno health its lame because rewards standing in a corner merely draws out game play where as metre increase risk reward aspects of game play.
2.the ridik games lack of hud was cool
3. don't if many people have played it but there's game series on ps2 called armoured core which had a very cool customizable HUD (sadly this feature less prevalent in the 360/ps3 versions)
4. there's whole enhanced reality scientific / technology theory bouncing around for few years now some integration of this idea would be nice

Igoe
6th Nov 2008, 05:07
Well if we assume a regenerative health model, then theres no need for a health bar on the HUD, so that eliminates that. We're left with the basics of augs and ammo. I'd imagine since they said each weapon has its OWN TYPE of ammo specifically, that no image or indicator is needed for the gun, simple numbers. IE clip occupancy, and reserve. Relatively easy, bottom left corner, pretty standard. Two numbers that light up in an LED fashion.

Next you have the augs which MIGHT NOT BE AS SIMPLE as the augs in DX1 and 2, with a simple symbol indicating the aug. I hope this is the case, because its a much more elegant solution, displaying the augs in a bar down the top right side. If not, EM might have its own HUD for augs.

The only thing left is the compass and bioelectric energy. BE is probably most easily represented as a bar below the ammo count in the bottom left, and the compass could PROBABLY be in the top center (DX:IW) or bottom center (Oblivion) Would be nice for an option of selection on that? HINT HINT????


Over all could be a VERY minimal HUD, which is a good thing. The key here is customization. Since its mostly numerical, EM could EASILY provide a slider for choosing hue and opacity and I hope this is the case. I for one would probably choose orange (:P)

GmanPro
6th Nov 2008, 05:21
Just because they are going through with auto heal, doesn't mean that there wont be a health bar.

Although, with auto heal, there really isn't any point to having localized damage, because it's just going to heal back after the fight it over.

This decision by EM is looking worse every day... They need to look at Fallout 3 if they are such big fans of Bethesda, and KEEP the health the way it was. I personally had loads of fun searching around the place for stimpacks and food in Fallout 3.

Jerion
6th Nov 2008, 05:30
You people seem dead-set on this idea that auto-heal can only be done one way, and that it can only be done in the worst way possible. Way to be creative! :p

Has anybody considered how health regen could be localized, or how it could only heal a certain amount?

GmanPro
6th Nov 2008, 05:34
Well, every time I've suggested that it might only heal you a little bit, everyone gets all angry. And when they said that they don't want the players to search for medkits, I thought they made it pretty clear that the auto heal would take you back to full.

Jerion
6th Nov 2008, 05:36
Well, every time I've suggested that it might only heal you a little bit, everyone gets all angry. And when they said that they don't want the players to search for medkits, I thought they made it pretty clear that the auto heal would take you back to full.

They only get angry because they refuse to consider that their notions might not be right. ;)

I never read that it would take you back to full. Where did you see that?

GmanPro
6th Nov 2008, 05:42
I never read that either, but if there aren't going to be any medkits, then how are you the player supposed to get back to full health? And if there ARE medkits, then why would they say that they don't want the players to spend time running around the map looking for them?

Jerion
6th Nov 2008, 05:44
I never read that either, but if there aren't going to be any medkits, then how are you the player supposed to get back to full health? And if there ARE medkits, then why would they say that they don't want the players to spend time running around the map looking for them?

Maybe the idea was to make it so that a bit less time was wasted searching the maps for every last little bit of health the player could find. I remember that in DX some sections got unbearably slow because I had to scrounge up every last soda can and soy packet after a big firefight.

GmanPro
6th Nov 2008, 05:52
That's awesome though!!!

It's completely optional to do that because you could just go to a medbot to get back to full health. Or flip on the regeneration aug.

Fallout 3 has stimpacks and all sorts of food everywhere. It's readily available though, you can usually find some on pretty much every enemy you kill, and its all over the place in fridges and places like that.

Also, Fallout 3 has water you can drink (although most of it is irradiated, and so is the food), and places where you can sleep to get back to full health.

Bottom line is that Fallout 3 approached the situation the RIGHT way by simply providing the player with an abundance of options to get yourself healed, and EM is going about it the WRONG way, the quick fix way of auto heal. Pheh!!!

Jerion
6th Nov 2008, 05:57
Maybe.

Maybe I can put the fear of poorly done auto-heal to rest in March. ;)

GmanPro
6th Nov 2008, 06:38
It will be fun to see how creative EM can get about keeping the HUD as small as possible.

I personally like the idea of having the guns display how much ammo they have, although this idea really only works in a futuristic sci-fi type setting. Perfect for a Deus Ex game but not so much for a Fallout type.

Fable 2 doesn't have any HUD. But I think that DX3 needs some sort of HUD, at least due to retinal augs.

Basically EM, if you think that the guys on the forum probably aren't going to like it, then chances are that we won't...

Classic Half Life hud is one of my favorites

http://www.forest.impress.co.jp/article/1999/03/03/game25_half-life1.jpg

murphy7801
6th Nov 2008, 13:30
thing is with regen health doesnt make sense to me makes more sense in dx1/2 with nanite tech i find strange lumps damage metal attached to your body suddenly get better im mean uh like idea that limbs get the f*** battered out of them.

ZylonBane
6th Nov 2008, 14:46
thing is with regen health doesnt make sense to me makes more sense in dx1/2 with nanite tech i find strange lumps damage metal attached to your body suddenly get better im mean uh like idea that limbs get the f*** battered out of them.
And this is exactly why this forum needs a breathalyzer. :scratch:

Yargo
6th Nov 2008, 16:37
And this is exactly why this forum needs a breathalyzer. :scratch:

I think what he/she means is that it does not make sense for metal mechanical Augs to automatically heal.

Blade_hunter
7th Nov 2008, 01:19
The HL hud is the simpliest HUD for FPS games, but we know only the minimal stuff, the SS2 HUD is much better and fitted to DX but I think for a game like DX Adventure,FPS/RPG, we need informations, for a game of this kind.

A Hud like Quake 2 / HL is often unapropriate, simple but unapropriate for DX the first DX Hud displays many informations like the weapons in the belt, their ammo loaded or the number of the items in the case of consumables / throwing and other disposable items that can be carried in the same space, their quick key in the belt
when an item is selected we know what is the current ammo or the weapon we have the weapon picture the ammo loaded and the clips if the weapon have clips.
We have the biomod bar that indicates what is the active or not and what are the installed biomods
For the health we have the oxygen level the Bio energy and the colored body parts, we have the compass in the lower part and the damage indicator in the lawer part of the compass indicates the damage type if it's electric, radioactive and poison and the filtering level if we use a suit or a mod

the problem with some Huds like DX 2 / snowblind is more the icon size and placement than the amount of informations displayed on the screen, to create a hud some questions must be asked.

How much informations we need to see ? (only essentials health / ammo or more)
Where is the best place to put it (top, bottom, in a corner , close the te crosshir if we have one, etc ...)
What is their size and form
What we use to prompt them (icons / numbers letters, picture, etc)

for me the HUD must be interactive for example by clicking on the Hud icons,
Int the DX HUD
On the health zone we can use medkits or the biocells to heal a body part or rechage the Bioenergy
click on the tool belt to select a weapon,
click on the biomod bar to activate a mod, click on the weapon icon to change ammo
something like this

But I think a too light HUD in therms of information isn't very good but if we have a lot of them don't make it intrusive or too big icons, many console games have a bad quality HUDs because their icons are too big :/

VodunLoas
7th Nov 2008, 02:16
I like the neocron hud.
http://cyberic.nl/users/vodunloas/images/games/aal.jpg

ZylonBane
7th Nov 2008, 03:20
It would be a good HUD, if the art style wasn't so eye-clawingly busy.

spm1138
7th Nov 2008, 03:32
It's kinda distracting and not actually that great at conveying information in a straight forward and easy to read manner.

GmanPro
7th Nov 2008, 03:44
Its a nice hud imo, although a little too big. Like I said before, it's going to be interesting to see how much of that EM can keep off of the hud while still maintaining its functionality.

Personally though, I recommend that they just take the original DX hud and pretty it up a bit.

Same here. The DX1 hud worked very well- it conveyed a lot of information and stayed out of the way. I hope they take a similar approach.

Blade_hunter
7th Nov 2008, 13:14
Yes similar approach the neocron HUD sounds to be good, and it looks deus ex ish the toolbelt is just on the right side :)

Lazarus Ledd
7th Nov 2008, 13:18
why can anyone accept DX3 as it will be.
I don't see no one minded about it in DX which nobody expected to make a blast.
And now Dx is The Bible.
You carry your DX memory as it and as everything should be done by the Deus Ex. You have the right to be suspicious as this is the way your belief is maturing, but be liberal and open-minded, cause your not getting anywhere with it.

GmanPro
7th Nov 2008, 14:08
Deus Ex is the only game that I treat with such nostalgia and I have good reason to do so. The game was near-perfect in every way.

So don't you think I have to right to criticize EM every time they try to differentiate from the original? There was nothing wrong with DX. If there was, then there wouldn't be this many people on the forum praising it.

spm1138
7th Nov 2008, 16:07
Deus Ex is the only game that I treat with such nostalgia and I have good reason to do so. The game was near-perfect in every way.

So don't you think I have to right to criticize EM every time they try to differentiate from the original? There was nothing wrong with DX. If there was, then there wouldn't be this many people on the forum praising it.

No.

It was very good with a genius design idea and several very good design ideas but it was not "near-perfect in every way."

I <3 Deus Ex but honestly it is not the zenith of game design which can never be bettered.

It was fairly clunky in several areas. A lot of those were implementation things.

The solutions they arrived at even if they were optimal back then were solutions for back then, for that engine and for the time and money they had available at that time.

Any finished game is going to be a compromise between what is desirable and what is achievable.

GmanPro
7th Nov 2008, 19:29
The solutions they arrived at even if they were optimal back then were solutions for back then, for that engine and for the time and money they had available at that time.


Optimal back then? I don't know about you, but auto-heal is never acceptable to me. All of these changes that they are proposing will serve to only bring down the quality of the game.

The ONLY thing about Deus Ex that needs improving is the graphics and AI. The core-gameplay of it was, just like I said before, near-perfect.

So I stand by my previous post that Deus Ex was the best game ever made not so much in terms of graphics and AI, but in terms of gameplay.

I don't WANT EM to "re-imagine" the game AT ALL! Just look at the classic Star Wars vs the new Star Wars, and you'll see where my concerns originate from...

spm1138
8th Nov 2008, 00:05
To be honest I don't have particularly strong feelings about it either way.

Both approaches (regen, pick-ups) achieve similar thing.

Defending magic health pick-ups but breaking out in hives as soon as anyone mentions regen seems pretty silly to me.

Both can be as gamey and easy-mode as each other depending on how they're implemented.

The only real difference is tying the player to pick-ups which DX didn't really do anyway since they were all over, you could carry them with you and you had a pretty efficient regen implant and lots of ways of mitigating incoming damage AND a the ability to save/load anywhere (lest we forget that's a factor - instant 100% health regen).

It wasn't exactly VBS1 or Infiltration mod.

You don't even have the faintest clue how they'll be implementing regen or what other mechanisms there'll be ingame so the outrage at this point in time seems pretty pointless.

It could take minutes to recover. You could only recover a certain amount. The repair system might become damaged or use up some other resource. etc. etc.

This "RARGH I'M NERDRAGIN TILL THEY SAY IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS DX1 :mad2: " is pretty much just a guarantee you'll be a disappointed with the finished product. You'll be like those guys unable to enjoy FO3 because it's not identical to FO2.

The phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face" springs to mind.

GmanPro
8th Nov 2008, 00:40
^^
But I love Fallout 3!!!:D

Granted, I think classic Fallout is better, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.

Still though, if they say that they are still early in development and suggest that we communicate with them now about what we like/don't like so that they can make the necessary changes... Then I'm going to tell them exactly what I want/don't want.

And what I don't want is auto-heal, so there...

Pete278
8th Nov 2008, 01:26
To be honest I don't have particularly strong feelings about it either way.

Both approaches (regen, pick-ups) achieve similar thing.

Defending magic health pick-ups but breaking out in hives as soon as anyone mentions regen seems pretty silly to me.

Both can be as gamey and easy-mode as each other depending on how they're implemented.

The only real difference is tying the player to pick-ups which DX didn't really do anyway since they were all over, you could carry them with you and you had a pretty efficient regen implant and lots of ways of mitigating incoming damage AND a the ability to save/load anywhere (lest we forget that's a factor - instant 100% health regen).

It wasn't exactly VBS1 or Infiltration mod.

You don't even have the faintest clue how they'll be implementing regen or what other mechanisms there'll be ingame so the outrage at this point in time seems pretty pointless.

It could take minutes to recover. You could only recover a certain amount. The repair system might become damaged or use up some other resource. etc. etc.

This "RARGH I'M NERDRAGIN TILL THEY SAY IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS DX1 :mad2: " is pretty much just a guarantee you'll be a disappointed with the finished product. You'll be like those guys unable to enjoy FO3 because it's not identical to FO2.

The phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face" springs to mind.
The FO3 comparison is, quite frankly, wrong, since DX3 will still be an FPSRPG, while FO3 went from birds-eye RPG to FPSRPG, which is a rediculous change. Its a completely different game that happens to be in the same universe as FO2.

ZylonBane
8th Nov 2008, 02:25
The FO3 comparison is, quite frankly, wrong, since DX3 will still be an FPSRPG, while FO3 went from birds-eye RPG to FPSRPG, which is a rediculous change.
Don't make me come over there and redicule your spelling.

Igoe
8th Nov 2008, 05:43
If there's a health bar on the screen that works well with the regen health model, and it has a snazzy, sciency feel to it i.e. you get hit and your suit displays a tiny message in the corner "Tibialis Anterior Puncture Detected. Endogenous Analgesic Administered" then heck yea, I'd be happy.

If its just a splatter on the HUD with a grunt and a beeping noise like Halo, I might have some problems there...

GmanPro
8th Nov 2008, 06:09
Sounds exactly like Half life.

"Minor Fracture detected."

"Minor Lacerations detected."

"Morphine administered."

"Warning! User death imminent! Seek medical attention."

I always thought that was cool... :thumbsup:

LatwPIAT
8th Nov 2008, 13:11
Don't make me come over there and redicule your spelling.

Irony. It bites. Hard.

Yeah, I guess that hearing those sounds would justify it a little, but where does all my Endogenous Analgesic come from? Do I carry a small bottle of it around in my pockets? What about chest wounds? How would a mech-aug heal a punctured lung? Would a small surgical drone crawl onto my chest and start stiching?

ZylonBane
8th Nov 2008, 17:36
Irony. It bites. Hard.
WHOOOOSH.

Abram730
10th Nov 2008, 10:50
That's awesome though!!!

It's completely optional to do that because you could just go to a medbot to get back to full health. Or flip on the regeneration aug.

Fallout 3 has stimpacks and all sorts of food everywhere. It's readily available though, you can usually find some on pretty much every enemy you kill, and its all over the place in fridges and places like that.

Also, Fallout 3 has water you can drink (although most of it is irradiated, and so is the food), and places where you can sleep to get back to full health.

Bottom line is that Fallout 3 approached the situation the RIGHT way by simply providing the player with an abundance of options to get yourself healed, and EM is going about it the WRONG way, the quick fix way of auto heal. Pheh!!!
I agree


Hammer

nail

on the head.

SageSavage
10th Nov 2008, 11:49
Yes, now that I've played Fallout 3 for a couple of hours, I have to say that the gameplay mechanics are surprisingly close to those of DX1, although there's much more free roaming. It's pretty great and I love the fact that it actually sells like hot cake because it's first class evidence that FPS-RPGs with a fair amount of comlexity and micro management can be the blockbusters all the publishers are after. Even when they are not PC exclusive.

To get back ontopic: yes, I really want a health-system like that used in Fallout 3, which is close to the one from DX1. I wouldn't mind an additional, real slow, autoheal-effect though. Maybe one that only works while the body part in question isn't completely crippled (100% damage).

Jerion
12th Nov 2008, 04:06
AH HA!

I have proof!

DX 3 will have a HUD similar to DX 1!

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t191/Zeoman1001/HUDelements1.png

The red circles denote possible hud graphics. :D

DXeXodus
12th Nov 2008, 04:16
Interesting :D Nice find actually. I think the fact that is has been blurred is further evidence to them covering up a possible view of the game and HUD.

Also, the flyers on the bulletin board are only pinned by one drawing pin each. This must mean that Eidos is a bit cash strapped at the moment and cannot afford multiple-pinned flyers! :eek:

GmanPro
12th Nov 2008, 07:51
And the walls are white!!! :eek:
Which means that DX3 will include magical gnomes!! :D

K^2
12th Nov 2008, 09:22
AH HA!

I have proof!

DX 3 will have a HUD similar to DX 1!

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t191/Zeoman1001/HUDelements1.png

The red circles denote possible hud graphics. :D
Can you source the original? I'd like to see if I can de-blur it a little.

Edit: Any additional compression would make the operation more difficult, so as close to original source as possible, if you can.

DXeXodus
12th Nov 2008, 09:36
I absolutely LOVE the Deus Ex fanbase and this community specifically. :cool:

Jerion
12th Nov 2008, 09:38
Can you source the original? I'd like to see if I can de-blur it a little.

Edit: Any additional compression would make the operation more difficult, so as close to original source as possible, if you can.

The original posted up picture, courtesy of Rene: (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=885126&postcount=20)

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/ares7777/Eidos_Halloween_25.jpg

It would be nicer if we had a higher res version, but I'm assuming that such is for Rene to horde and for us to go without.

ZylonBane
12th Nov 2008, 14:20
It would be nicer if we had a higher res version
Why? The monitor in that pic has been intentionally blurred out. If a higher res version were distributed, they'd just apply even more blurring.

K^2
13th Nov 2008, 01:38
Why? The monitor in that pic has been intentionally blurred out. If a higher res version were distributed, they'd just apply even more blurring.
It would still be easier to remove the blur. Blur, by itself, does not reduce the amount of information stored in the picture. It just scrambles it. Unfortunately, the way it does so makes the information extremely sensitive to quantization noise, which is why it is not possible to reverse the process perfectly. However, if you can guess the kernel used for the blur and then apply an appropriate filter to deal with the noise, partial reversal is possible. That's what I want to try to do. I've had some success before, but in the end, noise makes it impossible to restore the image completely.

Reduction of resolution, on the other hand, reduces the amount of information in the picture irreversibly. There are ways to partially restore the image by minimizing entropy or using wavelets, but these are essentially just very good interpolation techniques. They do not recover lost information.

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 03:06
You don't need to restore it perfectly to be able to tell what the image is.

I'm gonna laugh when you go through the trouble of un-blurring the images only to see that they its nothing... :D

DXeXodus
13th Nov 2008, 03:28
Probably find that the guy in the picture was just playing some random game in his lunch break or something :rasp:

René
13th Nov 2008, 03:35
Where's Deckard when you need him, eh?

Jerion
13th Nov 2008, 04:02
Probably find that the guy in the picture was just playing some random game in his lunch break or something :rasp:

Yeah, and they blurred it out to keep people thinking that they actually do work up there. :whistle:

K^2
13th Nov 2008, 04:59
You don't need to restore it perfectly to be able to tell what the image is.
Nobody's trying for perfectly. So far, I managed to marginally improve it by using a box blur kernel repeatedly. That seems to be the right direction, because box blur is the default algorithm in most image editing applications. (I tried Gaussian blur first, and that produced artifacts that led me to box algorithm.) Unfortunately, this means I have two different parameters to fit, and there is no way to do it automatically. I'll keep playing with it to see what comes out of it.

GmanPro
14th Nov 2008, 03:40
Sooo......

Any luck thus far? I have to admit I'm curious.

jordan_a
17th Nov 2008, 17:23
The HUD is currently undergoing preparation and will be operational within... oops :) .

Anyway they should perfect a concept already used in the franchise.

ZylonBane
17th Nov 2008, 18:24
Nobody's trying for perfectly. So far, I managed to marginally improve it by using a box blur kernel repeatedly.
You should try using this guy's (http://www.bialith.com/Research/BARclockblur.htm) software instead.

Jerion
17th Nov 2008, 21:03
^^ Neat stuff.

It would be highly ironic if this image turned out to be completely unrelated to DX 3. That said, valiant effort K^2!

free2game
21st Nov 2008, 02:14
Something that should be remembered about the UI is that it should be really different on both platforms. Play to the strength of each, there's too huge of a difference between a SDTV + gamepad set up and a Mouse/Keyboard+PC Monitor set up. Same too with a Gamepad and HDTV, 3 seperate ones should be developed really, but the HDTV one should just be a version with smaller text/icons obviously. Too many developers too try hard to make games the same across multiple platforms and then boast about it, when it really just shows they kind of lack ambition and don't want to rock the boat with internet fanboys. I guess that's what a lot of this has to do with, playing in to fanboys, multiplat games these days seem to lead more towards the Xbox 360 because on English language forums it seems they seem to be extremely vocal and numerous. To get back to my point though, the UI should be really different for each version.

-|°
21st Nov 2008, 18:06
And let's not forget an alternative one for consoles with a keyboard/mouse set up...
I know I shouldn't set my hopes too high... but I just can't help it :o

K^2
21st Nov 2008, 19:48
You should try using this guy's (http://www.bialith.com/Research/BARclockblur.htm) software instead.
Can't. He obtains the kernel from physical measurements. If I knew the kernel, the problem would be far simpler. What I'm doing instead is making guesses on the kernel, and trying to parametrize it to produce the best de-convolution. And while my algorithm isn't quite as good as the one used on the site, if I started with the blurred image he gives and a known kernel, I'd produce a readable output image.

Unfortunately, the low resolution does seem to be causing problems. The information about the image is stored in the very small number of pixels. That makes the image especially sensitive to any form of noise. I have to deal with both quantization and the compression artifact noises. The best results I've gotten still don't make the image a whole lot easier to see. It is clearer, but still the same stuff you can make out on the original.

D. Denton
22nd Nov 2008, 14:19
Hmmm you know what would be cool if at all possible...

Different HUD's because you are half robot half human you should be able to buy different HUD's.... if not possible use the HUD from DX1 and the HUD from DX2 both and let the player choose PC player's will probs use the DX1 HUD while console player will use the DX2 HUD .... problem solved :rasp:

Also about targeting ( IFF Aug ) because u are half a robot something like in movies as Terminator and so on you're build in processor would auto scan people within you're view and filter them with allied, neutral or enemy then move a picture right top off the screen with added info like weak points or things like that :D

spm1138
22nd Nov 2008, 14:37
That'd be a neat feature.

System Shock had HUD upgrades you could get.

Blade_hunter
22nd Nov 2008, 16:15
In DX 1 the HUD is customizable even if we can't do everything , thats better than nothing ....
Unreal and the tournament had those features, it's for that reason DX 1 has that.

ZylonBane
22nd Nov 2008, 21:11
It's often necessary to consult a mod to have a non-retarded UI on my PC
Ummm... by "consult" do you mean "install"?

jordan_a
23rd Nov 2008, 16:40
In a way, DX2 was better on the first on one aspect: HUD customization, and DX3 should go that way.