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eddiegorey
3rd Jan 2008, 01:33
I was just thinking about plot holes in the 1st and 2nd deus ex games. One big one that was bothering me dealt with the 3 endings, and how both the collapse and the helios ending were used in Deus Ex 2.

Why would JC choose to merge with Helios while at the same time cause a collapse? Wouldn't the collapse result in a loss of all of Helios' power? The Helios ending led to complete centralization whereas the collapse ending led to complete decentralization. To me, it made no sense for JC to cause both of these. Am I missing something?

There's a few other plot holes that I was thinking about too, but I thought I'd start with this big one.

SageSavage
3rd Jan 2008, 01:47
I am with you there and I don't think you're missing something.

Dave W
3rd Jan 2008, 10:26
IW assumes all endings occured. JC merged, which caused the destruction of Area51 - obviously killing Bob Page in the process. The collapse happened some time after the merge, and it's not a plot hole in the slightest. I haven't played the game in a while, so I can't remember if they do give a reason for it happeneing, but something caused an economic decline, and JC could not stop it. So he was forced to go into hiding.

CJ Denton
3rd Jan 2008, 10:39
The collapse occured partially or wholly because the merging by JC with Helios was imperfect. As explained in DX2 (a game I am not fond of due to its shortness and style compromises, but which nevertheless had a fairly robust story) since the merging was an attempt to control all the worlds communication, when it failed the communication networks were as destroyed as it Tongs ending had been followed, leading to both the partially merged JC and the collapse.

gamer0004
3rd Jan 2008, 10:40
IW assumes all endings occured. JC merged, which caused the destruction of Area51 - obviously killing Bob Page in the process. The collapse happened some time after the merge, and it's not a plot hole in the slightest. I haven't played the game in a while, so I can't remember if they do give a reason for it happeneing, but something caused an economic decline, and JC could not stop it. So he was forced to go into hiding.

Actually, JC agreed to kill Bob Page before he merged. Which is strange, to say the least. And I believe the Collapse occured because of the merging, which is really strange too. I have played the game too ;)

Dave W
3rd Jan 2008, 10:58
When did he agree to kill Page? Are you talking about something said in Deus Ex, or the loading screen messages in IW?

And as CJ Denton said, the merger was imperfect. JC was not made with the sole intention of being merged with Helios, so he could not stop the collapse from happening because of the issues with global communications.

gamer0004
3rd Jan 2008, 11:04
When did he agree to kill Page? Are you talking about something said in Deus Ex, or the loading screen messages in IW?

And as CJ Denton said, the merger was imperfect. JC was not made with the sole intention of being merged with Helios, so he could not stop the collapse from happening because of the issues with global communications.

Loading creen messages. How could've area 51 been blown up? It was a bomb-proof bunker! Only if those reactors exploded it could be destroyed, and those things are really well secured...

CJ Denton
3rd Jan 2008, 11:12
Did they actually specify that the area 51 bunker was destroyed? Beyond the surface area?

If they didnt the collapse doesnt require that the reactor had been blown up. Tong wanted to blow the reactor to destroy the communications hub, but the imperfect helios merge would also destroy the hub (or at least render it inoperable) which would also cause the collapse.

gamer0004
3rd Jan 2008, 11:55
Well, it states that Area 51 was blown up...

CJ Denton
3rd Jan 2008, 12:12
It is ambiguous, because of course Area 51 was hit with that missile prior to the dentons infiltration.

If the reactor was destroyed, then you could come up with an explanation, like the systems in Area 51 regulating it and when disrupted by helios this caused the meltdown, but the effort required to come up with that would qualify as a plot hole IMO :)

Dave W
3rd Jan 2008, 12:34
Loading creen messages. How could've area 51 been blown up? It was a bomb-proof bunker! Only if those reactors exploded it could be destroyed, and those things are really well secured...

Bomb proof from the outside, yes. But as the Tong ending shows, it can be destroyed. And it's science fiction, the developers can say whatever they want - you can't really argue against it because none of it's based on reality.

SageSavage
3rd Jan 2008, 13:04
:mad2:

IOOI
8th Nov 2009, 17:36
I don't regard the endings as plot holes. For me this is the best thing in the series.
C'mon, how many Deus Ex can you make out of one Deus Ex? :D

K^2
8th Nov 2009, 19:26
but is it too much to expect things to be coherent and meaningful in their own context?
Just looking at most movies/series/games lately, apparently so. Shouldn't be that way, though.

Jerion
8th Nov 2009, 19:35
We know it's sci-fi and of course it's all fictitious, but is it too much to expect things to be coherent and meaningful in their own context?

Of course we can, and some things still deliver. For instance, Red vs Blue. :whistle: :D

And then you have Highlander, where the continuity is changed whenever they feel like making more of it. :(

Point is, it's possible. :)

ArcR
8th Nov 2009, 20:08
That would have been a good subtitle instead of IW.

Deus Ex: Plot Holes

SageSavage
8th Nov 2009, 20:15
This thread ended one and a half years ago with me banging my head against a virtual wall, which left plenty of room for all kinds of sequels because it was nowhere near the finality of the DX-endings. Simply changing the continuity is cheating and there are many people who don't like it.

El_Bel
9th Nov 2009, 00:07
after the merge, JC realized that the world was not ready for centralized power, so he destroyed area 51 so no one could have that kind of power(and he caused the collapse). After that he and Helios have decided that they should come up with a plan, which we all know what it is(IW ending)

gamer0004
9th Nov 2009, 14:12
after the merge, JC realized that the world was not ready for centralized power, so he destroyed area 51 so no one could have that kind of power(and he caused the collapse). After that he and Helios have decided that they should come up with a plan, which we all know what it is(IW ending)

That's not how it worked. And it doesn't make sense, because Area-51 was required for JC and Helios to succeed.

InGroove2
9th Nov 2009, 16:35
That's not how it worked. And it doesn't make sense, because Area-51 was required for JC and Helios to succeed.

actually that sounded right to me... only it doesn't rectify the siutuation... i mean... the IW story merely makes it so the merge happened, a collapse happend and the illuminati are still doing their thing. it does not account for the player actions in DX... i mean if JC blows the generators, he can't merge, but page dies. if he just kills page, he could technically still merge, but he doesn't, according tot he cut scene. I don't think IW could possibly say taht JC blew the generators, killed bob page AND merged considering their cut scenes at the end.... it always seemed to me that the merge is the "right" ending. really, merging with helios is the only way to make all three instances possible, blowing the generators and killing page after merging. i think it was always clear that the creators were in favor of the merge... i think IW just wanted to be sure that if you chose to cause the collapse, that a collapse happened and tha if you chose to keep illuminati in power, that they were in fact still in power.... despite hte specifics.

SemiAnonymous
9th Nov 2009, 19:41
That's not how it worked. And it doesn't make sense, because Area-51 was required for JC and Helios to succeed.

Well, we know he ended up in Antarctica at some point (and if my memory serves, wooga booga psychic powers were involved somehow), so I guess the safest bet is that he moved first then destroyed Area 51.

gamer0004
9th Nov 2009, 20:29
The game clearly states JC merged with Helios, which made the reactors blow up. That doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

InGroove2
9th Nov 2009, 21:07
The game clearly states JC merged with Helios, which made the reactors blow up. That doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

do you know what the exact quote is? this is more a curiosity thing, all i can find is that it says JC destroyed area 51because the merge was imperfect and so he went to antarctica to figure out how to perfect the merge.

again, this isn't a combative thing, just curious... cause it's important to this particular thread.

nevertheless, there is a pretty big hole in the story when it comes to the idea that IW assumes all 3 endings happened, which can't possibly true. it assumes taht the result of all endings of DX happened, but not that, specifically, JC accomplished all 3 goals at that time.

Argent
10th Nov 2009, 03:36
This is one of the many reasons I take the easy way out and just deny the existence of DX2 IW all together. So much easier to just pretend it didn't happen...

gamer0004
10th Nov 2009, 14:57
do you know what the exact quote is? this is more a curiosity thing, all i can find is that it says JC destroyed area 51because the merge was imperfect and so he went to antarctica to figure out how to perfect the merge.

again, this isn't a combative thing, just curious... cause it's important to this particular thread.

nevertheless, there is a pretty big hole in the story when it comes to the idea that IW assumes all 3 endings happened, which can't possibly true. it assumes taht the result of all endings of DX happened, but not that, specifically, JC accomplished all 3 goals at that time.

So far I've only found this one:


No one has heard from JC Denton since he destroyed the Area 51 facility twenty years ago and brought about the Collapse.

But I am sure I read an explanation somewhere which combined all three (something along the lines of "the merge of JC with Helios destroyed Area-51, which killed Bob Page").