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Badmojoman
8th Dec 2013, 05:38
As they were in Soul Raver 1 - Undead, rotting almost zombie like, burrowed under ground to lie in wait. Had to eat corpses to keep them selves sustained. Slow and supposedly the weakest.

What they could be like right now?

Visual Themes: They worship death, cultist like. Use weapons like curved blades because they are not physically more advanced.

Skull face paint, dark robes and leather outfits, human-like, but already balding, pale green skin color, skinny form.

Gameplay: Jump underground and appear behind enemies. Regain health by eating corpses. Slow movement, fast melee. Can phase out to spectral realm for a second to dodge arrows and melee attacks.

Pretty sure you guys have some cool ideas too. Lets hear yours!

Btw this is what Melchiah looked like in SR1 http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111203223045/legacyofkain/images/8/89/SR1-Character-Melchiah-Lake-Full.jpg

Tube_Reaver
8th Dec 2013, 09:05
Hello,

I do like the idea of the cultist aesthetics, but I also think we should start seeing some of their flesh missing, not too much, but something significant, like maybe around their eyes or such.

As for the abilities I can get behind the burrowing underground, and even eating corpses to heal but it would be a slow processes.

However I am personally against giving them phase shift. I know Melchiah could do it, but you never see his clan do it, so I doubt the so far non-(de)evolved fledglings can pull it off.

Also I would much prefer we give one of the other unreleased clans Mist Form like in BO2 and Defiance, I know only Kain ever used it, and not sure if any of the clans were able to pull it off but a guy can dream.

My suggestion would be that there should be a game mode, where four hunters are against swarms of Melchiah's brood, and the four hunters have to reach the end of a map to get away as they are far too outnumbered. Ocassionally a Tyrant will spawn to teach the puny humans a lesson...
Wait a minute that sounds familiar :scratch:

Sluagh
8th Dec 2013, 15:34
I have an idea that includes the phase and the burrowing. Perhaps the SR Melchiahim were not burrowing but employing some kind of primitive phase into pockets/tunnels under the ground. Maybe it's a less advanced form of phase than the spectral/material one employed by their patriarch, evolved as a compensating escape mechanism to avoid detection. Because it's less evolved, it involves some manner of physical disturbance that upsets the soil around.

In terms of gameplay, perhaps the vampires use it to hide temporarily and launch ambushes. However they can only hide for a short period only as hiding involves resisting the physical weight upon them and in a sense phasing into it. After launching themselves upwards to attack a human foe they cause increased damage but also take more damage, as they've expended a lot of energy perorming the phase.

TheIrtar
8th Dec 2013, 17:41
The Melchiahim I see as lurkers, and ambushers. Very feeble, but very keen to skullduggery. I can very easily see a return of the burrow mechanic from SR1. Restrict the use to soft soily sections of the map. Problem is then you'd have to design every map with a scattering of soily bits which wouldn't make sense in some scenarios. I don't think they'd want to add an environmental mechanic like that since it would restrict either the Melchiahim's play, or put a new level design constraint. Could be wrong, could be something they already have planned so they wouldn't have to redesign anything.

I like the idea of a corpse eating mechanic, the problem is I don't know how they would implement it into the game. If they left the corpses of the slain human players, it would quickly become a hog of resources (on top of that one feeder and his fifty identical corpses on the ground). It would be something that would set them apart from the other vampires, and could support a far squishier character type. After all, with the corpses you could munch on later, so you could address damage at nearly any time as opposed to the other clans.

Badmojoman
8th Dec 2013, 18:50
The burrow mechanic wouldn't require them to stand on soil. Keep in mind the Melchiahim would become weaker by SR1. So at this stage they could burrow into any ground and would not be significantly inferior to other clans.

A drawback could be that they will start to lose health when they are underground. So they wont be able to camp forever and also would make sense as they start to deteriorate.

The life cost to all their abilities could be one of their core mechanics? It would be fitting as they need to ghoul around to stay alive. Giving them a unique play style fitting to their lore.

Monkeythumbz
9th Dec 2013, 00:30
This is shaping up to be a good thread!

Vampmaster
9th Dec 2013, 01:32
There are a lot of ideas for the Melchiahim class in the meat shield thread as well. Would it be helpful to repost those here?

Reidbynature
9th Dec 2013, 03:26
I think I've put these ideas out elsewhere, but I'll post them again here just for the sake of it.

I think the burrow ability could be used as though it's a short range teleport ability. It could be used to close short gaps between themselves and human enemies or even appear behind someone to catch them off guard. I'm also a fan of using their burrow ability as a trap where they hide in the ground waiting for human prey. Though to balance this I would suggest visible disturbed soil where they are hiding and perhaps leaving them vulnerable to some attacks if spotted hiding underground.

As far as their phase ability I think it could be used to phase through only the thinner walls. They could use this ability for both ambush and a quick retreat.

Tube_Reaver
9th Dec 2013, 14:13
I think I've put these ideas out elsewhere, but I'll post them again here just for the sake of it.

I think the burrow ability could be used as though it's a short range teleport ability. It could be used to close short gaps between themselves and human enemies or even appear behind someone to catch them off guard. I'm also a fan of using their burrow ability as a trap where they hide in the ground waiting for human prey. Though to balance this I would suggest visible disturbed soil where they are hiding and perhaps leaving them vulnerable to some attacks if spotted hiding underground.

As far as their phase ability I think it could be used to phase through only the thinner walls. They could use this ability for both ambush and a quick retreat.

Burrow as a "gap closer" is definitely a great idea, as well as being able to burrow underground stay there, while your team mates lure humans around a corner and you pop up behind them and take them down from both sides. I think that would be a lot of fun.

As for giving them phase shift, with the above 2 versions of burrow, I really think giving them phase shift as well would be too much.

As I said in my above post, I think we should just leave phase shift out of it (I mean you never see Melchiah's brood use it anyway), and give your idea of "phase shift" to another clan as "mist form", again I know only Kain ever used it, but that doesn't necessarily mean no one else (of the clans) could also use it.

Vampmaster
9th Dec 2013, 15:01
Here's a way of using the phasing that I think could work (originally posted in the meat shield thread):


What if the Melchiahim had a partial phasing ability. Like allowing human weapons to pass through them or solidifying their hand inside of a humans chest? It wouldn't require a redesign of a level like phasing through parts of the environment would, but it could still allow for other interesting mechanics.

What about leaving arrows sticking out of their bodies that would damage the attacker or maybe bones like the ones sticking out of Melchiah's back. (That last one might just have been concept art, but could still work.) Maybe they could be expelled at a crucial moment for radial damage.

And here's a link to the thread, since it had a lot of other ideas for the Melchiahim as well:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7698

lucinvampire
9th Dec 2013, 15:02
Mist form would be awesome and you could use it as an escape as well - turn to mist and things can't hit you :D Phasing through things would be good but only if it works in the environment – if there are barriers etc.

The only downside with the burrowing would be if people didn't come that way – it’d be like bored now – but if you could use it as an attack move and then appear under/near an enemy if they were within a certain radius – and either drag them down or attack unexpectedly – that would be cool :D

EDIT: Sorry just saw your post Vampmaster – the phasing arrows etc through you would be pretty cool :D – or I know how about a “play dead” ability lol.

Squarezilla
9th Dec 2013, 16:05
Now this i like the whole play dead ability is perfect the humans have to be on edge then suddenly that Melchiah corpse you thought was dead behind you just snatching you from the group .... with that said i wonder if they can implement a grab ability like the reavers pounce the melchiah can grab the human and start draining the life force or just straight up strangling him this thread i really like keep the ideas coming guys!

Vampmaster
9th Dec 2013, 16:22
How about this:

One of the recent blogs made use of Daniel Cabuco's description of the Razielim's role withing Kain's empire. If the same is done for the Melchiahim, that would put them as Scientists, Necromancers and Blood manipulators, right? So maybe something could be done using their blood or the way they absorb it from their enemies.

I was talking about a flesh armor type ability some time ago, so how about if they could absorb their enemies blood through all the cuts and scars in their flesh. Allies running off with your dead victims was always a problem, but if the Melchiahim could absorb a small amount of blood from this other method, they'd have a unique advantage that the other classes don't.

Tube_Reaver
9th Dec 2013, 17:16
Mist form would be awesome and you could use it as an escape as well - turn to mist and things can't hit you :D Phasing through things would be good but only if it works in the environment – if there are barriers etc.

The only downside with the burrowing would be if people didn't come that way – it’d be like bored now – but if you could use it as an attack move and then appear under/near an enemy if they were within a certain radius – and either drag them down or attack unexpectedly – that would be cool :D

EDIT: Sorry just saw your post Vampmaster – the phasing arrows etc through you would be pretty cool :D – or I know how about a “play dead” ability lol.

Mist form dashing would be cool, sort of like kain does during certain combos in Defiance.

As for burrowing and waiting, well yeah if humans don't come to the area where you have burrowed then you simply get out. It's kind of like Metal Gear Online, where you could hide in a box, and some areas of the map were barren, so there's no point camping there.

The point of burrowing is to ambush, so say you know a certain path is constantly used, once its all clear you burrow there and wait, or perhaps have a team mate lure humans to you. Like "oh no... these humans are gnna kill me... I best run away..." they give chase and boom ambush! Sort of like guerilla warfare :D

lucinvampire
9th Dec 2013, 20:41
That type of mist would be sweet :D

Yeah lol I get what you mean with the burrowing - it could be an epic ability if done right and utilised well... If you can live that long in the game I'd give you cookies... Would a Mel eat cookies :scratch:

Tube_Reaver
9th Dec 2013, 20:59
That type of mist would be sweet :D

Yeah lol I get what you mean with the burrowing - it could be an epic ability if done right and utilised well... If you can live that long in the game I'd give you cookies... Would a Mel eat cookies :scratch:

I personally think that kind of ability gives them a very distinct playstyle, and gives variety to the gameplay, making things more diverse.
Think of it like certain predators in the wild, they dig holes and wait for their prey to approach, so the Melchiah brood would have a very different playstyle compared to the other clans, but it would still supplement the other clans, rather than be another rush in and flail wildly.

As for living that long... Can I have stormtroopers from episode 4 be the human team? (so they miss every shot :lol: )
The cookies must be bloodbaked chocolate chip cookies, but then Raziel would burst in "My blood cookie-thirst has been superceded by an even darker hunger." and just ruin the moment.

Badmojoman
9th Dec 2013, 21:52
http://i.imgur.com/iKqURIh.jpg

I threw together a quick sketch of a Melchiah's Clan Vamps. It doesn't hold up to much critique as its a 20 min sloppy pen job, but should give a general idea.

I can throw together another one as well if you are bothered to describe what you want it to look like.

Sluagh
9th Dec 2013, 23:02
http://i.imgur.com/iKqURIh.jpg

I threw together a quick sketch of a Melchiah's Clan Vamps. It doesn't hold up to much critique as its a 20 min sloppy pen job, but should give a general idea.

I can throw together another one as well if you are bothered to describe what you want it to look like.

Awesome sketch! The wound blood absorption thing sounds like an interesting idea. Perhaps they don't have well developed predatorial fangs like the other clans. They thus are faced with the choice of munching through bodies for blood like ghouls, or using subtler methods like the absorption one. Obviously by SR 1 this gift/technique is lost.

I still think there's no need to separate burrowing/phasing - they could be part of the same ability. I mean, one doesn't have to take the moves that npcs had in previous Legacy of Kain games too literally after all. Indeed, if Raziel had the option to phase through partial barriers up/down/forward or back in a game, then there's nothing other than imagination stopping him doing it. If an iron gate could have been phased through, then a loose floor panel covered with dirt concealing a space beneath makes approximately the same sense. I am not sure anyone should get a pure mist form though, it seems quite a 'Kain' specific gift but this is just my own gut feeling and not based on anything more.

I was thinking recently, on a slight tangent from the Melchiahim and their scientist role, that perhaps despite their obvious cruelty the Melchiahim are curious creaturs, amd notice some disadvantages to the vampire form, where humans have an advantage. Firstly, the humans desire to live, only being mortal, gives them a keener grasp of arts such as science and magic, a skill that the vampires lack by having no fear of threat or conflict (this is an idea I pinched from Warhammer fantasy. In some of the supporting fiction that was written for Vampire Counts a few years ago, the said vampires employed human necromancers because of their improved mastery of necromancy, built on a determination to stay alive that they lacked. The second thing that the Melchiahim notice is how useful the humans are as slaves, as well as cattle. Because they have quick dexterous hands, not claws (three claws or five) they make faster manual workers them vampires ever would, despite a lack of strength or quick reflexes. This comes with the danger of the humans making weapons to destroy the vampires. I think both of these ideas sprang from the notion that it is obvious that the vampires are becoming more bestial, or decrepid in the Melchiahim's case, which is some ways contributes to their downfall, intertwined with the land's damnation. The humans, despite living on a dying world, are not turned into beasts (see SR), though obviously are reduced to a pathetic prey species.

Vampmaster
10th Dec 2013, 18:18
In fact they might as well have the blood shower ability itself. It would be the same range as the humans rain-of-arrows ability, do half the amount damage it does to enemies and refill about 30-50% of your health. Or maybe it would depend on what health the enemies had, a bit like the demi spell from Final Fantasy.

That way it's not OP like Kain's lethal version from BO1 would be.

Badmojoman
11th Dec 2013, 02:04
So have the Melchiahim, be this Necromancer/ShadowWarlock caster archetype with AoE abilities and such? Blood Shower seems a bit colorful, but maybe have it rain ash/dark-mist/ink or something of that nature to keep dark visual aesthetic?

Another idea is to have him be disease themed. Jumps out of the ground and waves of locust spin around him tearing the flesh from his enemies and returning it to him.

Vampmaster
11th Dec 2013, 08:44
So have the Melchiahim, be this Necromancer/ShadowWarlock caster archetype with AoE abilities and such? Blood Shower seems a bit colorful, but maybe have it rain ash/dark-mist/ink or something of that nature to keep dark visual aesthetic?

Another idea is to have him be disease themed. Jumps out of the ground and waves of locust spin around him tearing the flesh from his enemies and returning it to him.

Blood Shower was an ability Kain had in the very first game in this series, so there's no way it would out of place aesthetically.

I definitely wasn't suggesting that any of the classes should be made to fit an archetype. Just because one ability reminds you of another franchise doesn't mean need to open a flood gate to make the character a clone of whatever that happened to be.

All the characters in Nosgoth have two special abilities each and on top of their standard light and heavy attack. That's not really enough to consider any class as a caster archetype anyway.

Also, there's no concept of mana in this game, which I presume that kind of setup would need.

The_Hylden
11th Dec 2013, 09:22
Also, Badmojoman, Blood Shower wasn't an actual shower of blood falling from the sky like rain, but Kain willing blood from all enemies within a certain radius (or something like four to six enemies) at once to himself. Basically, enhanced TK feeding, which also he used in Defiance (it just wasn't called Blood Shower, but he was able to do the same in feeding from three to four enemies at once -- they just had to be beaten senseless first).

He also used a spell called Blood Gout, which I think might be more appropriate for the Melchiahim, if we're going that route. Blood Gout allowed Kain to use his own blood as a projectile weapon, and then when struck, an enemy would be in the prime wavering state they go into when about to die and ready to feed from. As Kain said, it was a risk, but the reward was basically worth it.

Being already falling apart as they were, the Melchiahim using their own blood, or even flesh, as weapons certainly would be in-keeping.

Khalith
11th Dec 2013, 09:35
I've mentioned the Melchiam with my own ideas in another thread, don't feel like digging it up now so I figured I'd just give the brief rundown here.

1. The ability to quickly burrow through the ground could be interesting, but I don't like the idea of them using it to cover large distances. I would say it would function better as a more of a mobile trap, the Melchiam can slowly burrow through the ground and either leap out to pounce or for something really epic (in my opinion) have them pull the human in to the ground and devour them.

2. Going with the idea above if they do pull the human down, I'm reminded of another ability Raziel mentioned, Melchiah's brood taking the flesh from their victims for themselves. So immediately after a kill, Melchiam should have the ability to channel for a few seconds to don a human disguise for a brief time. I.E. kill a Sentinel and give the Melchiam the ability to become that sentinel that just died. Creates an extra layer of drama if the humans don't know who might be a Melchiam in disguise, also that disguise should have an instant kill move, something like "hidden ambush: the melchiam leaps on a target, inflicting massive damage over X seconds. Can only be used from behind a target while in disguise, immediately drops disguise."

3. The phasing ability should come in to play at least partially, I get that, my thought is the ability to pass through certain walls or the ability to shift in to the spectral realm and have it act like a stealth mechanic. Something like "Fade: Shift in to the spectral realm for 2-3 seconds, becoming invisible and immune to damage. Cannot attack while phasing."

Combine that with the burrow trap idea and you have a ghostly assassin that can lurk underground and take the guise of it's victims and can shift to close the distance or get away.

Now for weaknesses, one, definitely should be a visual clue on the ground that somewhat gives their position away, not too obvious but enough to catch someone not paying attention. Also, since they are the physically weakest the Melchiam should be able to take the fewest hits and their basic attacks should also be weak, their damage coming from their ambush and burst along with their tricks,

Vampmaster
11th Dec 2013, 10:57
Phasing through objects or environment would mean the levels need redesigning to contain objects and environment that can be phased through. That would take a lot of time and the spectral realm would be even more difficult, since the game would need to support environment morphing. I suppose a custom shader might give you the blurry blue-green effect, but it wouldn't look as good.

@The_Hylden, the reason I suggested a powered down blood shower rather than blood gout is just because blood gout was a long attack which would go against the idea of asymmetrical gameplay, whereas the blood shower can just have a radius of a few metres. I suppose, since the abilities are customisable, you could always choose between a lethal single kill that could miss and non-lethal radial damage. I think that's a fair tradeoff.

Umbralim
11th Dec 2013, 15:43
According to the lore post, as well as a few other bits of data the Melchiahim appear to need more blood to survive than the other vampire clans maybe some abilities playing off that. The Melchiahim could be a good support class, that can store extra blood by gorging on corpses, in there bodies and then regurgitate it for other vampires to feed on.

I also like the idea of them skinning there opponents. I remember in defiance raziel could alter the flesh of corpses he possessed to look like his own so maybe after peeling off the skin of a corpse they could partiially phase into the skin and it would contort and wrap around them to look like the character. it would be grizzly looking animation but it would be so cool.

Sluagh
11th Dec 2013, 17:47
According to the lore post, as well as a few other bits of data the Melchiahim appear to need more blood to survive than the other vampire clans maybe some abilities playing off that. The Melchiahim could be a good support class, that can store extra blood by gorging on corpses, in there bodies and then regurgitate it for other vampires to feed on.

I also like the idea of them skinning there opponents. I remember in defiance raziel could alter the flesh of corpses he possessed to look like his own so maybe after peeling off the skin of a corpse they could partiially phase into the skin and it would contort and wrap around them to look like the character. it would be grizzly looking animation but it would be so cool.

Yes maybe they have some extra blood needs. Although, I thought the need to take flesh from their enemies was more vital. They appear to be more ghoul, than true vampire. Melchiah himself obviously by the period of SR is knitted together from slain enemies, his codename for the game was something like "Skinner" boss or something wasn't it?

Vampmaster
11th Dec 2013, 18:25
Well, the flesh is their weakness and the blood based abilities would be one way of compensating for that. Either way, there's plenty room for customization, so you could easily pick from any of the suggestions.

Badmojoman
12th Dec 2013, 02:23
Also, Badmojoman, Blood Shower wasn't an actual shower of blood falling from the sky like rain, but Kain willing blood from all enemies within a certain radius (or something like four to six enemies) at once to himself. Basically, enhanced TK feeding, which also he used in Defiance (it just wasn't called Blood Shower, but he was able to do the same in feeding from three to four enemies at once -- they just had to be beaten senseless first).

He also used a spell called Blood Gout, which I think might be more appropriate for the Melchiahim, if we're going that route. Blood Gout allowed Kain to use his own blood as a projectile weapon, and then when struck, an enemy would be in the prime wavering state they go into when about to die and ready to feed from. As Kain said, it was a risk, but the reward was basically worth it.

Being already falling apart as they were, the Melchiahim using their own blood, or even flesh, as weapons certainly would be in-keeping.

Thanks for clearing that up, BO1 is the only one I don't own and have so far been unsuccessful at torrenting + emulating. So I've had to resort to watching playthroughs on youtube.

However I believe it is important for a class to have an aesthetic or a theme. This does not imply that it has to be stolen from another game as Vampmaster may have understood from my post.

I was trying to imply that consistency is rather important for a class, for example if you have one character shoot blood, burrow underground, spark lightning from its rear end and turn into green fire. Then you may just as well have a dude who shoots rainbows everywhere.

Keep in mind that having a unique silhouette is important for gameplay in this sort of a game. As it allows for players to identify each other, avoids saturation and homogenisation. We already have the rogueish hunched over stalker/assassin archetype as the Dumahim. Adding one more would diminish the uniqueness of both.

Same danger would be for Zephons Clan, they climbed on walls, but right now so do the Reavers. Allowing both to scale walls would make the ability less unique. So I see it as a bit of a dilemma.

blincoln
12th Dec 2013, 04:53
I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, or if it's too contrarian to work in at this point, but what if at this point in history, the Melchiahim weren't heavily decaying yet, but were just really fast and lightweight? They kind of shamble around on foot in Soul Reaver, but they burrow really quickly, and Melchiah does have the phasing power, so they could be an effective quick-strike class, similar to the Sentinel but without being able to be picked off from the other side of the map by Scouts :). I am picturing them using the phase ability sort of like the Gloom in Nightwatch - dashing out from nowhere, attacking, and then disappearing again to escape. The combination of that and the burrowing would mean they'd need to be pretty quick to die to avoid making them overpowered, like maybe they have 700 hit points instead of 1050 like the Reaver.

We know that Raziel and his clan started out looking beautiful, but his clan devolved quickly without Raziel there. What if the Melchiahim did that even with Melchiah there (because he had the least of Kain's soul), but it hadn't actually happened in the era that Nosgoth was set in? It would make their appearance in the Soul Reaver era even more tragic. Maybe give them noble faces, but with the beginnings of problems setting in. Something like the obsolete androids in AI - you see a beautiful face, then they turn their head and it's just bare machinery on the side.

I guess another comparison to what I'm thinking of would be the replicants in Blade Runner - incredibly good at what they do, but doomed.

Umbralim
12th Dec 2013, 06:01
I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, or if it's too contrarian to work in at this point, but what if at this point in history, the Melchiahim weren't heavily decaying yet, but were just really fast and lightweight? They kind of shamble around on foot in Soul Reaver, but they burrow really quickly, and Melchiah does have the phasing power, so they could be an effective quick-strike class, similar to the Sentinel but without being able to be picked off from the other side of the map by Scouts :). I am picturing them using the phase ability sort of like the Gloom in Nightwatch - dashing out from nowhere, attacking, and then disappearing again to escape. The combination of that and the burrowing would mean they'd need to be pretty quick to die to avoid making them overpowered, like maybe they have 700 hit points instead of 1050 like the Reaver.

We know that Raziel and his clan started out looking beautiful, but his clan devolved quickly without Raziel there. What if the Melchiahim did that even with Melchiah there (because he had the least of Kain's soul), but it hadn't actually happened in the era that Nosgoth was set in? It would make their appearance in the Soul Reaver era even more tragic. Maybe give them noble faces, but with the beginnings of problems setting in. Something like the obsolete androids in AI - you see a beautiful face, then they turn their head and it's just bare machinery on the side.

I guess another comparison to what I'm thinking of would be the replicants in Blade Runner - incredibly good at what they do, but doomed.

well its possible but, from what we know it would suggest the melchahim would start Rotting first behind the Razielim due to them being a special case.

Plus frankly, the rotting is really there thing, they wouldn't feel like melchahim without it in my opinion.

lordbane2110
12th Dec 2013, 09:58
Yeah Melchahim were definately the zombie vampires of the game, maybe they should also have some form of gangreen like the rotting is there but is festering under the surface.

Sluagh
12th Dec 2013, 10:16
I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, or if it's too contrarian to work in at this point, but what if at this point in history, the Melchiahim weren't heavily decaying yet, but were just really fast and lightweight? They kind of shamble around on foot in Soul Reaver, but they burrow really quickly, and Melchiah does have the phasing power, so they could be an effective quick-strike class, similar to the Sentinel but without being able to be picked off from the other side of the map by Scouts :). I am picturing them using the phase ability sort of like the Gloom in Nightwatch - dashing out from nowhere, attacking, and then disappearing again to escape. The combination of that and the burrowing would mean they'd need to be pretty quick to die to avoid making them overpowered, like maybe they have 700 hit points instead of 1050 like the Reaver.

We know that Raziel and his clan started out looking beautiful, but his clan devolved quickly without Raziel there. What if the Melchiahim did that even with Melchiah there (because he had the least of Kain's soul), but it hadn't actually happened in the era that Nosgoth was set in? It would make their appearance in the Soul Reaver era even more tragic. Maybe give them noble faces, but with the beginnings of problems setting in. Something like the obsolete androids in AI - you see a beautiful face, then they turn their head and it's just bare machinery on the side.

I guess another comparison to what I'm thinking of would be the replicants in Blade Runner - incredibly good at what they do, but doomed.

I think that's an important aesthetic to get across - them having a certain nobility that was starting to decay. The post abyss Raziel era obviously has quite well developed images of each Lieutenant and his clan. However the pictures of the Lieutenants pre-abyss are one of the weaker points of the game, but admittedly not quite that important: the important bit was what a freakshow they had become in Raziel's absence. However looking at Melchiah's image, he gives the impression even then of " their fragile skins barely contained the underlying decay" (in fact I'm working on a fan story at the moment that springs from this point). Reflecting on what Raziel meant by Melchiah having "human fraility," perhaps they're slightly affected by human weaknesses too, linking back to their former lives? Things like: images from their former lives, insanity, relationships with possessive objects. It would make them slightly more narratively interesting.

Anyway, the main point is yes, you don't really want the Melchiahim to be too obviously zombie. You also need to find a role for them that isn't too "rogue" like the Dumahim too. The most fitting thing then, I suppose would be some kind of "slippery caster," as malformed and limited as that description is.

Vampmaster
12th Dec 2013, 10:29
Same danger would be for Zephons Clan, they climbed on walls, but right now so do the Reavers. Allowing both to scale walls would make the ability less unique. So I see it as a bit of a dilemma.

The Tyrants can climb walls in order to do that jump-down earthquake move, and the Sentinels can climb walls to jump off when gliding. These are walls with things to grip with a regular hand/claw rather than smooth/weak walls that would need the Zephonim's ability. A certain amount of speed and strength is involved, so the humans probably can't do it without exposing themselves to attack.

EDIT: SE plan on making their money from customizations, so it would only make sense to provide lots to choose from. As long as they're balanced, so you're trading off one advantage for another and it's not play to win, as they've said.

lordbane2110
12th Dec 2013, 10:38
technically all the vampire classes can climb walls to a certain degree, it depends then on the class itself what they do once there on one

Maybe having Zephonim be able to transfer to ceilings like the Alien class in Aliens vs Predator, after all the spiders were easily the most mobile of all of vampires

Badmojoman
13th Dec 2013, 16:10
The idea of having Melchiahim be "at their finest" right now would be pretty cool. They would be these aristocratic noble psychopaths. Straight backs, noses up, but still a little rotting while trying to badly hide it.

Dressed in tunics, but carrying knives. They would go "hunchback predator" when they run, but when standing still they would scoff and smirk with the best of them.

Having this strange duality would add flavor to them, imagine a pretty girl with horrid green teeth. They would pretend to be these intelligent sophisticated royalty, but really they are murderous self-loathing psychopaths.

Vampmaster
13th Dec 2013, 18:29
I actually think the older, stronger Melchiahim might save the highest quality human skin for themselves while leaving the fledglings with the leftovers. Maybe they would look human at full health (except with a few scars) and when you damage them, the decay becomes apparent.

Perhaps also, the more health they lose, the stronger they get as their decaying flesh and their bones become like weapons.

Sluagh
13th Dec 2013, 19:05
Neat ideas from both Vampmaster and Badmojoman. Maybe walking/running is difficult for them, as they are pained by their stiffened, decaying bodies.

predatorkid1
14th Dec 2013, 21:05
Visually i would depict a melchahim as mostly human,skinny a palish white with a weak greenish layer on top(tribute to SR1) normal hands and feet or SR style,but make them have their stiches and wounds,theyre iconic,perhaps one side is fine while the other is all with scars and underlaying decomposition.Their armor should look ancient egyptian themed like melchiahs lair and the staff of necropolis.It should be a mix of scaly armor pieces put together,armor that is imitating bone structure like a ribcabe on their chest for protection and some bones here and there as trophies from their kills.Now gameplay wise

1-They are weak so their health should be the lowest of the vampires,but their speed the fastest,they arent an assault class but rather an support one,in SR1 they used human flesh for defense,the same here,once they get on a corpse they feed/steal meat to increase their health BUT allies can drain blood from the meat they stole lowering their extra defense until it returns to normal simply put-They can go in and surpass the normal health bar limits and increase their health but if an ally needs to feed they can do so from a fellow melchahim
2-Ambush-a melchahim 2nd and most effective should be a burrowing attack,they burrow themselves until a human enemy approaches and they strike out and blow a very damaging attack/lethal depending on enemy.
3-They must be faster than the dumahim and scale around just like they do but 2x their speed.A dumahim health is 1050 a melchahims should be around 650-700 as a way to balance their speed.
This is my take on this class hopefully we will see more of them soon :DD

GenFeelGood
17th Dec 2013, 00:16
The Melchiahim should resemble Melchiah, skin that has a yellow tone (showing initial stages of rot) covered in stitches where they mended themselves (perhaps various skin tones derived from their victim that could create interesting color patterns). Their finger covered with a patchwork of skin going around them except for the tips which have been sharpened into full on talons. As for powers, burrowing was their trump card so I like the idea of burrowing up to the enemy catapulting upward with enough force to knock those around it flat on their ass. I would also like them to have toxic breath derived from the rot occurring in their bodies.

diuqSehT
17th Dec 2013, 00:58
There'd be even more you could do with the burrowing ability in a game with actual exploration and stealth tactics. You could charm a Melchiah burrower and use him to reach inaccessible areas. Like what if a pyramid had no front door and only a burrower could reach the underground access tunnels to the crypt inside with its priceless relics? Or what if you needed to sneak into the crystal metropolis of those bizarre crystalline shade creatures under the pillars? If you had a Melchiahim as one of your shapechange forms, that could get you in there. Or rescue missions where brute force won't do because it'd get the prisoners killed before you could reach them. Or sabotage missions, or underground cave system battles where the enemy is using cave-ins against you and burrowing becomes essential as the only way to transit between tunnels that have been cut off from each other, or it's a way to take a short cut to get out in front of a retreating enemy. Before we totally get rid of these necro-broods, Kain or some other major vampire character (perhaps a newly introduced one!) should totally absorb these core abilities like burrowing, swimming, and diving into spectral for future use in puzzle and combat situations!

Badmojoman
17th Dec 2013, 02:56
Visually i would depict a melchahim as mostly human,skinny a palish white with a weak greenish layer on top(tribute to SR1) normal hands and feet or SR style,but make them have their stiches and wounds,theyre iconic,perhaps one side is fine while the other is all with scars and underlaying decomposition.Their armor should look ancient egyptian themed like melchiahs lair and the staff of necropolis.It should be a mix of scaly armor pieces put together,armor that is imitating bone structure like a ribcabe on their chest for protection and some bones here and there as trophies from their kills.Now gameplay wise

1-They are weak so their health should be the lowest of the vampires,but their speed the fastest,they arent an assault class but rather an support one,in SR1 they used human flesh for defense,the same here,once they get on a corpse they feed/steal meat to increase their health BUT allies can drain blood from the meat they stole lowering their extra defense until it returns to normal simply put-They can go in and surpass the normal health bar limits and increase their health but if an ally needs to feed they can do so from a fellow melchahim
2-Ambush-a melchahim 2nd and most effective should be a burrowing attack,they burrow themselves until a human enemy approaches and they strike out and blow a very damaging attack/lethal depending on enemy.
3-They must be faster than the dumahim and scale around just like they do but 2x their speed.A dumahim health is 1050 a melchahims should be around 650-700 as a way to balance their speed.
This is my take on this class hopefully we will see more of them soon :DD

I tried to sketch something according to your description. Its a rough one obviously, but should get the point across. I drew it without armor to show more of the anatomy. I almost finished an armored one, but my freaking pen run out.

Anyways here is the link:
http://i.imgur.com/0ahM5Za.jpg

If anyone has any suggestions, then I'm all ears.

Vampmaster
17th Dec 2013, 10:58
I tried to sketch something according to your description. Its a rough one obviously, but should get the point across. I drew it without armor to show more of the anatomy. I almost finished an armored one, but my freaking pen run out.

Anyways here is the link:
http://i.imgur.com/0ahM5Za.jpg

If anyone has any suggestions, then I'm all ears.

I really like the egyptian theme for the Melchiahim. If fits in with the both look of their territory from SR1 and the idea that they had presence in the desert as described in the blog. I imagine Laderic's would not be the the only colony (my own wording, but I like the implication that Kain's empire is huge) there, as their weak flesh would be much less susceptible to damage in a dry environment and also desert is less valuable land which the weakest clan would most likely end up with. I also like the egyptian idea because it's very decorative and I imagine that would fit nicely with the fact that they were the vainest of clans and would want to use that to distract from their decaying bodies.

Badmojoman
17th Dec 2013, 14:17
I really like the egyptian theme for the Melchiahim. If fits in with the both look of their territory from SR1 and the idea that they had presence in the desert as described in the blog. I imagine Laderic's would not be the the only colony (my own wording, but I like the implication that Kain's empire is huge) there, as their weak flesh would be much less susceptible to damage in a dry environment and also desert is less valuable land which the weakest clan would most likely end up with. I also like the egyptian idea because it's very decorative and I imagine that would fit nicely with the fact that they were the vainest of clans and would want to use that to distract from their decaying bodies.

That makes a whole lot sense and fits their theme totally. They could also add bandages on their bodies, to keep themselves intact and thus mummify themselves while still "alive" for preserving their flesh.

predatorkid1
19th Dec 2013, 17:56
yup it looks just like what i thought i hope they go this way with the melchahim nice scetches btw :D hope we see new clans as soon as possible ive been exited for nosgoth day 1

Vallass
19th Dec 2013, 18:24
The burrow mechanic wouldn't require them to stand on soil. Keep in mind the Melchiahim would become weaker by SR1. So at this stage they could burrow into any ground and would not be significantly inferior to other clans.

A drawback could be that they will start to lose health when they are underground. So they wont be able to camp forever and also would make sense as they start to deteriorate.

The life cost to all their abilities could be one of their core mechanics? It would be fitting as they need to ghoul around to stay alive. Giving them a unique play style fitting to their lore.

My problem with them losing health is that they can't move while burrowed. If they just burrow underground and begin losing health while they wait for someone to move overhead, you could be there all game and never have someone walk over, especially if the level has buildings. Why would ANY human get on the ground when they know there are Melchiahim burrowed down there?

I suppose you could allow them to move slowly, and lose health only while moving. At least it would be balanced then. And as for the corpses all around the ground where he's buried, I don't see that as being helpful even if they do heal from corpses. It seems more a giant signal flare to every human, "Hey guys, I wonder what could be with ALL those corpses in a circle? Couldn't be a burrowed enemy!"

Badmojoman
20th Dec 2013, 02:30
My problem with them losing health is that they can't move while burrowed. If they just burrow underground and begin losing health while they wait for someone to move overhead, you could be there all game and never have someone walk over, especially if the level has buildings. Why would ANY human get on the ground when they know there are Melchiahim burrowed down there?

I suppose you could allow them to move slowly, and lose health only while moving. At least it would be balanced then. And as for the corpses all around the ground where he's buried, I don't see that as being helpful even if they do heal from corpses. It seems more a giant signal flare to every human, "Hey guys, I wonder what could be with ALL those corpses in a circle? Couldn't be a burrowed enemy!"

Well you should definitely be able to move while underground, but you should not be able do stay there indefinitely. That would be terrible gameplay design. It would have zero counterplay.

Also if you are going to kill yourself by staying underground for too long, then you are probably not doing it right. The point of loosing health while burrowed is to force you to keep moving and not camping indefinitely. It would give you this sense of danger and need to actually kill people.

Vampmaster
20th Dec 2013, 10:00
Well you should definitely be able to move while underground, but you should not be able do stay there indefinitely. That would be terrible gameplay design. It would have zero counterplay.

Also if you are going to kill yourself by staying underground for too long, then you are probably not doing it right. The point of loosing health while burrowed is to force you to keep moving and not camping indefinitely. It would give you this sense of danger and need to actually kill people.

There should be a PFX or mound of dirt on the ground that humans can shoot to force them to pop out if they can spot it.

Badmojoman
20th Dec 2013, 13:13
There should be a PFX or mound of dirt on the ground that humans can shoot to force them to pop out if they can spot it.

Yeah, definitely that. They should not be untouchable during this time, but it should be relatively low key. SO that you actually have to pay attention to your surroundings to notice them.

Alternatively they would work similar to the Gears of War 3 Digger ... except you are the one that goes underground and obviously you don't explode at the end.... but similar.

diuqSehT
20th Dec 2013, 23:48
You could say the SR1 earthdiver vamps behaved as if they had to hold their breath while underground and could only tunnel for so long before surfacing, so they made it quick. You'd see telltale signs of disturbed earth at the place where the melchiah clan began tunneling, but not necessarily any sign of where they were currently located as they passed beneath you. Maybe an instant of earthquake warning before they pounced, with some added moments of warning for humans who'd developed that as a skill, perhaps this skill allows you to detect tunnelers in a wider circumference around where you're standing. There might be equipment or weaponry to use against tunnelers, like how planes use counter-measures against heat seeking missiles. Like, maybe a strong-man could swing a magicked hammer as a ground-pounding depth charge that'd create a safe zone by knocking tunnelers for a loop and forcing them out of the earth onto the surface (or it'd make them turn around in pain or actually stun them senseless for long enough that humans could retreat to where they had more solid rock beneath their feet and were no longer in jeopardy from the Melchaihim).

LegacyOfKayn
26th Dec 2013, 15:22
So in my opinion the M-vamps abilities should be:

1.Burrow and ambush an enemy,kill him and take his aparence,while in the transformed state u should be able to kill another enemy if u catch him from behind,but after the kill the transformation dissaperes and while burrowed u should be able to move but slowly loose healt.
2.The play dead ideea is interesting.
3.Corpse eat abiliti (aside from the blood sucking witch i guess all the clans have it).

The corpse eat abiliti i think is quite important sience they loose health while burrowed...if not corpse eat at least an enchanced blood sucking abiliti to compensate the health loss while burrowed...

Vallass
26th Dec 2013, 16:39
"1.Burrow and ambush an enemy,kill him and take his aparence,while in the transformed state u should be able to kill another enemy if u catch him from behind,but after the kill the transformation dissaperes and while burrowed u should be able to move but slowly loose health."


So I'm cool with the Melchiah only being allowed to burrow for so long, but why should they lose health? Game wise, it doesn't really make sense. Especially if this is early de-evolution, there's no reason for them to decay THAT quickly, even while burrowed. I can't even find anything in the lore where they're hurt while burrowed late in de-evolution times.
If it's a balance issue, well then why don't the Razielim lose health while flying? Why doesn't every vamp class lose health while using their main gimmicks. It's their MAIN ability, it just doesn't make sense. They're already the weakest in terms of health and probably defense, so why hurt them more?

LegacyOfKayn
26th Dec 2013, 16:46
Well sience they'r skin is decaying already it makes sence that beeing burrowed too mutch to affect them after a while...besides if they don't loose health every1 will just remain burrowed till the end of the round so that's kinda op...

Badmojoman
26th Dec 2013, 17:48
So in my opinion the M-vamps abilities should be:

1.Burrow and ambush an enemy,kill him and take his aparence,while in the transformed state u should be able to kill another enemy if u catch him from behind,but after the kill the transformation dissaperes and while burrowed u should be able to move but slowly loose healt.
2.The play dead ideea is interesting.
3.Corpse eat abiliti (aside from the blood sucking witch i guess all the clans have it).

The corpse eat abiliti i think is quite important sience they loose health while burrowed...if not corpse eat at least an enchanced blood sucking abiliti to compensate the health loss while burrowed...

Play dead or feign death is an interesting idea, but so far it has not been working in games very well. Unreal Tournament 3 had it and nobody really used it because it was useless. This may have been because all the weapons did splash damage and you would be dead anyways.

But Hunters in World of Warcraft had it too and it was never used for its intended purpose, it was just used to clear target. Nobody ever fell for it tho.

The burrow ability should be a high risk - high reward ability. You are frail, but you are placing yourself in melee range and on the spot.

It would also be good if it wasn't targeted and you could use it freely to move around, escape or close distances. This would inspire creative play and would make the game more dynamic while adding depth to the class.

I imagine the Melciahim a more twitchy class, where you have to take risks and think about how to approach the situation. A bit of a hit-and-run kind of character.

Playing against them would be also interesting as it creates tension. You have a window of opportunity to kill him from afar or you go for the risky version of letting him get close and hoping to place a land mine where he will pop up or capitalizing on that small window of opportunity when he is up close, but hasn't killed you yet.

Its interesting for both sides, this would make good tension for both players yet allowing both sides to prepare and counterplay.

LegacyOfKayn
26th Dec 2013, 18:03
well,u are right about the feingh death never fooled any1 in world of warcraft but that's because in an arena are 2,3 or 5 enemyes and there is really no point cuz it's a very small arena and every1 can see if ur dead or not simply by attacking u...and on battlegrounds the same thing they click u and attack if the attack hits ur not dead,if it doesn't hit ur dead.

In Nosgoth battlegrounds they can put some random corpses on the streets of the city or in the forests (to give u the impresion that the battle is going on for quite a whille) and in that case no1 will stay and click every melchia corpse in the bg...but still that requires quite some work just for 1 abiliti so yeah...prbabbly there won't be any fake death for melchia

Sluagh
9th Jan 2014, 12:54
Ok, after posting some ideas before I've been having a rethink about Melchiahim:

- Some kind of hit-and-run class might be good, although you don't want them to take too much of the sneakiness allocated to the Zephonim.

- Burrow (or some kind of phase) would be a really cool ability, but maybe shouldn't be allowed for long periods, as it could get pretty tedious.

- Skin salvaging/blood absorption (all of the ideas around here) could be quite good, as it fits in with the more "ghoulish" needs of the Melchiahim. It could be implemented as a really useful way to get health, but perhaps introduces a vulnerability to the player doing it?

- I think the play dead skill sounds awesome, but sounds like it wouldn't really be highly useful. It might be better to take the Melchiahim out of line sight, as with the "burrow."

- The idea of the Melchiahim as necromancers I quite like. Maybe they have those pipes that the human necromancers had in BO1? If they had an ability to raise a load of shuffling corpses every so often that would make them pretty cool, but you don't want it to be OP, or look naff.

It's rather hard coming up with ideas, but the main ideas that come into head when I think of how they should operate, both in lore, as well as game mechanics:

- Reliance on magic/tricks rather than brawn
- Flesh weaknesses - needing to compensate by re-using bodies, difficulties overcoming their fragility
- Twisted vanity - a revelling in the more revolting aspects of life, or tainting things that are already beautiful (a bit like Slaneesh in Warhammer lore)
- Pestilence - possibly carrying diseases but not suffering from them
- Alchemy - an interest in the effects of potions/substances on the body, the effects of pain etc.

Badmojoman
10th Jan 2014, 02:23
The vanity flavor definitely hits a high note. It is so deliciously ironical to see them be super arrogant and think themselves better then everyone else. Only to know they are getting the short stick later on.

Everybody likes to see a person who is being an *anal cavity* get kicked off their high horse into the dirt.

ParadoxicalOmen
10th Jan 2014, 19:21
You guys have to remember that the Melchaim didn't have a salvage skin "ability".
I say this because it was NOT an "ability"...it became a necessity due to their devolution and their skin couldn't hold their bodies together!! So they HAD to resort to 'flesh grafting'...it was in no way an ability.

It was never hinted that the Melchaim had magical abilities...so I'm strongly against giving them necromancer powers or anything of the like.

The only plausible ability in this thread is the 'Burrow' (seen in SR1).

I liked the 'Pestilence' idea suggested by Slaugh, but i think it would be something more suited for the devolved Melchaim.
Theorizing a little, we could say they always had opened wounds on their body, and thus their flesh was exposed and would become putrid and full of infections. So one could say their attacks could infect humans (but would not do harm to vampires, as they're undead).
I am uncertain about this ability, because I'm almost sure that their decadent state was only in SR1 (when they were fully devolved).
Raziel was shocked to see his brother's kin in such a gross state...so one could assume they were fairly normal, most likely only full of scars and 'sutures'.

Azazel_reborn
10th Jan 2014, 21:13
I think Melchahim and Zephonim play styles would be similar since they both seem like they would most likely revolve around trapping. Different strategies would be required but I would say a group should have 1 of the 2 in it if all clans are present. For Melchahim though this bit of info should be the complete basis for their class.

The Melchahim were the weakest vampires in the desolate Nosgoth, but were threatening enough the way they were. Their master, Melchiah received the weakest portion of Kain’s gift, therefore, his offspring inherited an unusual physical frailty, and decaying of their flesh, barely holding their undead bodies together. “Their fragile skins barely contained the underlying decay.” They wear loincloths and rags showing their clan sign. They all displayed a peculiar limping due to their bodily frailty. A few times, the player can witness members of the clan drinking the blood and chewing off flesh and skin of their victims. (As scripted cinematic events.) They show an eager tactic to approach distant prey while burrowed and digging underground towards them in the hopes of ambushing them preferably with an attack of their claws. The precise method of this is still unclear, though it might have something to do with the fact that the clan has a natural affinity towards death, and being in touch with the spectral realm – all in mind, their burrowing might be aided by a primitive version of the phasing through ability, though this is just a theory.
Their fighting style made them appear clumsy and choppy, but were effective enough in every way. Over time though, they were predictable.

Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.

Sluagh
10th Jan 2014, 21:36
You guys have to remember that the Melchaim didn't have a salvage skin "ability".
I say this because it was NOT an "ability"...it became a necessity due to their devolution and their skin couldn't hold their bodies together!! So they HAD to resort to 'flesh grafting'...it was in no way an ability.

It was never hinted that the Melchaim had magical abilities...so I'm strongly against giving them necromancer powers or anything of the like.

The only plausible ability in this thread is the 'Burrow' (seen in SR1).

I liked the 'Pestilence' idea suggested by Slaugh, but i think it would be something more suited for the devolved Melchaim.
Theorizing a little, we could say they always had opened wounds on their body, and thus their flesh was exposed and would become putrid and full of infections. So one could say their attacks could infect humans (but would not do harm to vampires, as they're undead).
I am uncertain about this ability, because I'm almost sure that their decadent state was only in SR1 (when they were fully devolved).
Raziel was shocked to see his brother's kin in such a gross state...so one could assume they were fairly normal, most likely only full of scars and 'sutures'.

I never thought too much into the pestilence. But I suppose ths no reason why not. If they had something like septic bite or something. However it sounds a bit visually dull and also I don't think an infectious bit sounds like a realistic option when the games are so fast paced. However, who needs realism?

Lord_Aevum
10th Jan 2014, 21:37
It was never hinted that the Melchaim had magical abilities...so I'm strongly against giving them necromancer powers or anything of the like.

Perhaps the hint comes from the staves (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Necropolis_staffs) Raziel can pick up throughout the Necropolis. They look more like ritualistic/priestly/wizardly staffs to me than most of the other spears and railings in the game.

Badmojoman
11th Jan 2014, 02:16
So I was bored and I whipped up some simple sketches of what a Tier 1 Melchiahim would look like:
http://i.imgur.com/VXN7i0O.jpg

Here is how I imagine the Burrow ability could function like. The intent is to have sink into the ground magically, they could make an evil grin as they do it and take up a stiff pose. Once underground, they would crack and scatter surface as they torbedo towards you. After traveling 50% of the way they would resurface violently, carried by the momentum they would catapult towards their pray.
http://i.imgur.com/9boHu3o.jpg

They could use it to escape sticky situations or to avoid damage while charging. Since they will be airborne the other 50% of the way, they wont be able to stop from there on. They could use it to catapult themselves across small chasms or leap to higher ledges.

http://i.imgur.com/wDKNowc.jpg

Azazel_reborn
11th Jan 2014, 23:05
Wow great sketches! I think your concept would work perfect. I really like the element of surprise they would add to the game.

ParadoxicalOmen
13th Jan 2014, 18:28
Perhaps the hint comes from the staves (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Necropolis_staffs) Raziel can pick up throughout the Necropolis. They look more like ritualistic/priestly/wizardly staffs to me than most of the other spears and railings in the game.

It's just a staff. All it had that was special was a skull, but that is because it is in the necropolis area.

Just as the Rahabim staffs gave that Atlantis feeling ( http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Drowned_Abbey_staffs );

And the zephonim staffs looked like spiders ( http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Bone_staffs );

etc etc

lakdav
14th Jan 2014, 10:55
I could picture melchiahim as mostly scavanger support troops. The weakest of vampires, not the best at hunting and certainly not brute force, they would have trouble taking down an enemy on their own. However, debuffs, curses and diseases might work wonders. Harassing human forces with debilitating abilities mostly centered around rot, decay, disease and alchemical poisons, then borrowing away either to get away, or hopefully luring the victim to the stronger vampires that can finish the job. Then, after all is done, they gain more from out of the corpse than just the blood (there is a big possibility anyway that the actual predator/killer vampires would take the blood for themselves). They are to devolve into ghouls, and i assume the lowest of vampires are easily put on to scrap duty. Clean up the mess.

PhilFourFingers
24th Apr 2014, 00:35
Seeing as only 2 vampire races are left to release and that the rahabim are probably the most complicated to flesh out, here are some thoughts I had about melchahim.

We know that they had trouble staying together, their clan being the weakest and all. they sometimes add to steal flesh from the living to keep their bodies from falling appart.

But wouldn't having the most frail body in all the clans also make for the most malleable body.

I think that maybe at that point (the nosgoth game) the melchahim could have very well be shapeshifters, using their own frailty to change the shape of their bodies to anything they like. Or maybe its reverse, maybe they gained the weakness of the flesh from abusing their natural form, rendering it useless.

So yeah, they could be the one using the mist/bat/wolf/playtpus forms of kain. having gained to gift of shapshifting from him, and having abused it. spending to much time out of their own flesh.

Ygdrasel
24th Apr 2014, 02:54
...Platypus?

Heh.

I always figured if they appeared in the game, they'd be a debilitator class with abilities geared toward DoT, blinding effects, things like that.

Persiphas
24th Apr 2014, 21:40
I like the idea of a shapeshifter class and the background story you created is well done, but I personally think that there are other possible abilities which fit the Melchiahim better, since they are the offsprings of the youngest and weakest vampire lieutenant (changing physical appearance might require a certain amount of power). Considering their zombie-like appearance in SR1 I would imagine something like this: A close-range life-leeching ability (bite?), the ability to bury themselves in the ground (for example digging through the earth for a medium distance or a skill which completely hides them in one place without the ability to move so they can set up an ambush) or a play-dead-move (since their bodies might already have started to decay it would be easy to mimic a corpse). Another idea is that they compensate for their lack of physical strength by abusing some kind of necromantic magic, which could be based on life-leech and sacrificing their own health...

The Rahabim could use abilities like spitting a sticky slime in mid-range to slow down escaping humans or vomiting acid on close-range targets. Since they are supposed to be somewhat like a shark (if I remember correctly) there could also be an ability which lets them smell blood (for example an ability that marks enemies for the Rahabim if they are below 50% life and if the Rahabim is close to a low-life enemy his movement speed is slightly improved...)

Now there is the problem that every clan would be implemented at this point and, at least in my opinion, they wouldn't be shapeshifters :( After thinking about it I came up with the idea of some exiled/outlaw vampires which have lived in banishment somewhere in a remote wilderness and thus grew more and more feral over the centuries = shapeshifters. Since the vampires need every warrior they can get (they even accept the Razielim for now!) they include these outlaws (maybe only for the moment, might as well get rid of them afterwards...) in their forces. I am not sure if this would go well with the lore but I think we should at least give it a thought (just because it' s not mentioned in the LoK series doesn't mean it is impossible, we didn't explore the whole world)

Please excuse possible mistakes, English is not my mother tongue :)

-Moltenmarble

Hashakgik888
25th Apr 2014, 10:09
I like the idea of giving them abilities centering on death and corpses, such as being able to scavenge body parts from dead humans to gain an HP buff. That would be a really cool callback to the SR1 lore. I also think it might be cool to have them be able to essentially "revive" a dead vampire whose body is still intact by pulling out the arrows so its soul can return to its body, having it instantly and automatically flee the map and costing the human side a point, but that would probably be much harder to implement.

Calverp
25th Apr 2014, 11:40
It'd serve absolutely no purpose, but it would be awesome if after executing someone they wore part of them for awhile.

LegacyOfKayn
25th Apr 2014, 12:30
I'm realy curious about how are they gonna make a necromancer a mele class...corpse reanimation or shapeshifting into plagued wolves,bats etc sounds interesting...anyway we need more magic in this game.

Keitaro767
27th Apr 2014, 04:08
I like the idea of a shapeshifter class and the background story you created is well done, but I personally think that there are other possible abilities which fit the Melchiahim better, since they are the offsprings of the youngest and weakest vampire lieutenant (changing physical appearance might require a certain amount of power). Considering their zombie-like appearance in SR1 I would imagine something like this: A close-range life-leeching ability (bite?), the ability to bury themselves in the ground (for example digging through the earth for a medium distance or a skill which completely hides them in one place without the ability to move so they can set up an ambush) or a play-dead-move (since their bodies might already have started to decay it would be easy to mimic a corpse). Another idea is that they compensate for their lack of physical strength by abusing some kind of necromantic magic, which could be based on life-leech and sacrificing their own health...

The Rahabim could use abilities like spitting a sticky slime in mid-range to slow down escaping humans or vomiting acid on close-range targets. Since they are supposed to be somewhat like a shark (if I remember correctly) there could also be an ability which lets them smell blood (for example an ability that marks enemies for the Rahabim if they are below 50% life and if the Rahabim is close to a low-life enemy his movement speed is slightly improved...)

Now there is the problem that every clan would be implemented at this point and, at least in my opinion, they wouldn't be shapeshifters :( After thinking about it I came up with the idea of some exiled/outlaw vampires which have lived in banishment somewhere in a remote wilderness and thus grew more and more feral over the centuries = shapeshifters. Since the vampires need every warrior they can get (they even accept the Razielim for now!) they include these outlaws (maybe only for the moment, might as well get rid of them afterwards...) in their forces. I am not sure if this would go well with the lore but I think we should at least give it a thought (just because it' s not mentioned in the LoK series doesn't mean it is impossible, we didn't explore the whole world)

Please excuse possible mistakes, English is not my mother tongue :)

-Moltenmarble

I totally agree with this about the Melchahim. But I think the ones you've suggested in the Rahabim are a bit ... OP, especially with the blood sense. No offense, mate :D

If you would permit me, I would like to elaborate on the Melchahim because I also agree with the Rahabim being difficult to flesh out.

First, the Life Leech skill. The skill must be a channeling skill, at the same time, a snare skill. The opponent cannot move while the son of Melchiah constantly drains his victim's blood (similar to Kain's way of draining blood in BO1). As a trade-off, the other enemies can retaliate by attacking the vampire, thereby canceling both the channeling and snaring. Think of it as like being lifted and choked at the neck. This would be, at best, the RMB ability ;)

Second, the Burrowing. IMO, it would be best if it's replaced by the PHASING ability, since the patriarch utilizes this ability. This will allow his sons to move through obstacles, and dodge projectiles for a short duration (let's say five seconds). If you think this is OP, then we'll go back to the original: Burrowing underground. I totally agree that the Melchahim will be stationary while underground, like a mine (sorry, that's how I see it).

For the Play dead, not a nice one. Although they indeed look dead, it would look as though they are treated as zombies. A Diablo-inspired skill of Corpse Explosion, though, would be a nice addition. He can sacrifice his dead allies, or his potential meal, to deal a massive AoE attack. The Tyrant, though also owns a large array of AoE, they would be focused more being a tank. Or the third skill can be Poisoned Nails, wherein each auto-attack deals a DoT debuff.

How about it? :)

>> PS. : I still don't have something to flesh out the Rahabim. :(

Hashakgik888
27th Apr 2014, 09:12
It'd serve absolutely no purpose, but it would be awesome if after executing someone they wore part of them for awhile.

See above where I suggested that as a non-stackable HP buff.



PS. : I still don't have something to flesh out the Rahabim.

I think we can all agree that the clan most in need of "fleshing out" is the Melchahim... y'know, because they're always running out of flesh... :D

ParadoxicalOmen
27th Apr 2014, 15:32
I don't agree very much with the shape-shifting idea, since it's more of a magical ability...it doesn't have much to do with the fact that the Melchahim bodies are in decay. (Decaying bodies = shape-shift...i just don't see the conection)
I would suggest something more "Frankenstein-ish", towards this:


I like the idea of giving them abilities centering on death and corpses, such as being able to scavenge body parts from dead humans to gain an HP buff.
I'd also like that this would be useable on both human and vampire corpses.

Calverp
27th Apr 2014, 18:39
See above where I suggested that as a non-stackable HP buff.



Aye, that's what I was continuing from, meaning that instead of just a buff, it would be cosmetic too.

Keitaro767
28th Apr 2014, 15:56
IMO, we must try to relate their abilities to the clan's lore. Makes it easier for us to suggest new ones. Then, let's just brainstorm for new ideas. :)

Hashakgik888
29th Apr 2014, 08:24
I'd also like that this would be useable on both human and vampire corpses.

I don't think there's anything to suggest that they ever scavenged from vampire corpses. That would have created hostility and outrage from other clans.

Vampmaster
29th Apr 2014, 08:38
I think the leech ability would be more appropriate for the Rahabim, since their development codename was originally "Aluka" which means leech. Daniel said the Melchiahim were blood manipilators, so they could have something along the lines of blood gout from Blood Omen 1 (converted to a stab rather than a projectile) or a slightly nerfed Blood Shower ability.

Ruevergne
29th Apr 2014, 22:28
Second, the Burrowing. IMO, it would be best if it's replaced by the PHASING ability, since the patriarch utilizes this ability. This will allow his sons to move through obstacles, and dodge projectiles for a short duration (let's say five seconds). If you think this is OP, then we'll go back to the original: Burrowing underground. I totally agree that the Melchahim will be stationary while underground, like a mine (sorry, that's how I see it).

I always saw their burrowing ability as being related to Melchiah’s phase ability – a combined of digging and unrefined phasing. I could be wrong. I quite like the idea of having this ability, but limited by time. This would prevent them from moving excessive distances.


>> PS. : I still don't have something to flesh out the Rahabim. :(

There’s a new thread for the Rahabim if you’re interested.


I also think it might be cool to have them be able to essentially "revive" a dead vampire whose body is still intact by pulling out the arrows so its soul can return to its body, having it instantly and automatically flee the map and costing the human side a point, but that would probably be much harder to implement.

What about inverting this? They are necromancers, so perhaps they could be able to ‘revive’ a human they’ve defeated temporarily and have them turn on their own.

Reidbynature
30th Apr 2014, 07:21
Much of these threads already have previous versions which many others have suggested ideas also. It's worth a look over to see what others have said at least. http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8399&p=75711#post75711

Ruevergne
30th Apr 2014, 12:08
Much of these threads already have previous versions which many others have suggested ideas also. It's worth a look over to see what others have said at least. http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8399&p=75711#post75711

Thanks for the link.

Merging threads must be a pain. Praise be to the moderators.

SkippyMcDoogle
30th Apr 2014, 19:36
After reading through the thread, here are my thoughts on some Melchahim abilities.

1) Rend Soul: Melee attack that pulls part of the victims soul to the spectral realm; damaging them and blurring vision for a time. Maybe make it a channeled ability that stuns?
-I think I remember reading that the weaker bodies of the Melchahim gave them a closer relationship to the spectral realm. Maybe they're not strong enough to fully phase shift themselves, but can still interact with it.

2) HP or Defense buff through dead players. Mentioned several times throughout the thread, good idea!

3) Burrow: A fast, short range ability to close distance or escape. Damage/stun if player is close enough to entrance/exit.
- Similar to ability seen in SR1.

4) Feeding Attack: Percentage of damage dealt is gained as health.
- I'm thinking describe it as a gouging attack and health is gained through blood going everywhere.

5) Ambush: Wait in the ground and pop up for attack. Instead of being damaged while waiting, put a time limit; After 4 sec. you have to pop back up. Also, make the trigger area larger than where you're buried to increase usefulness.
- Similar to SR1 again :)

Ruevergne
1st May 2014, 15:19
Just a quick aesthetic note on the burrow ability - if this ability is chosen to be included then it would be cool to have it look more like a normal water dive. The Melchahim would not have reached SR1 like devolution by this point and their movements could a little more graceful accordingly. Think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7bj_LUIY7Y#t=3m21s
Or a similar, but slower burrow to show that they have not yet refined the ability.