PDA

View Full Version : Do you want a skill system in Dx3?



Bluey71
13th Dec 2007, 20:23
Personally I think it does. For me the skill system made up a lot of the decision making in the first game, carefully planning your abilities for the future and hoping you made the right choices.

humbug
13th Dec 2007, 21:04
Yes, I love the skill system in DX as you can improve the skills you want to use to progress through the game. Another good thing about the skill system in DX is that it isn't overly complicated like in other RPG.

SageSavage
13th Dec 2007, 21:14
Of course I want a skill system!

JSDonald
14th Dec 2007, 13:01
A resounding 'YES!' from me.

Tyrant Worm
14th Dec 2007, 16:00
I usually stick to the adage that there is no dumb question, but in this case I'll make an exception. OF COURSE I want a skill system! It's one of my main complaints about Insivisble War.

CarloGervasi
14th Dec 2007, 23:45
Yeah, but they should make sure that every skill counts, no filler. Crap like environmental training or swimming really shouldn't be sitting next to weapons or hacking.

Woggy
15th Dec 2007, 03:27
Yeah, but it doesn't have to be in its skill point form. As long as you can develop your character in some meaningful way.

If its a prequel for example and you play a mechanically augmented agent, perhaps you can upgrade yourself with mechanical parts? That would actually MAKE some sense instead of abstract skill points. They'd be different than augmentations in that they'll be passive instead of active, and would provide smaller, incremental improvements to your subsystems. You could say, upgrade your leg actuators for better swimming, or install an oxygen filter to swim for longer, or maybe install some sort of arm control system to stabilize your aim? :D
They don't have to be specific parts - the packages could be generic mechanical/electronic upgrade containers that come in various sizes. You could collect these parts, and then at a medbot use them on whatever skill upgrade you want. You can still reward the player for exploration this way and doing certain tasks.

Heavy - Shoulder/Chest reinforcement upgrade for sturdier carrying and better aiming of heavy weapons

Pistol/Rifles - Arm stabilizers to lessen recoil and improve aim. Optional breathing stabilization for sniping :D

Ocular implants can provide general aim improvement for all ranged weapons.

Low-Tech - Arms/shoulder/chest mechanical muscle upgrades

Environmental/Swimming - Various filters and extractors that can be combined. Should be fairly cheap in terms of cost in parts.

Lock picking - Fine-motor control upgrades in wrist/hand/forearm (finger muscles and tendons)

Electronics - EM resonance detection head implant. Remember how the Deus Ex multi-tools worked? Electromagnetic resonance detection + frequency modulation of current? If you could detect the electromagnetic waves in the circuitry yourself, you'd hack through electronic systems better with the aid of a multitool ;) Obviously this shouldn't really matter to the player, but rationalizing it in the context of the world makes the game more immersive. Remember one of the things that made Deus Ex so great was that you could read more into things if you chose to do so. I bet most players didn't even read that little book on multitools during training.

Medicine - Hardware expert systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system) chips ... you already have access to a medical database :)
Oh and to make this more useful, at an advanced level it allows you to install augmentations and parts yourself without the aid of a medbot.

Computer - Like above, expect for computing. Basically, just chips you can add that aid in quicker and better decision making. Kinda doesn't make sense since these systems are software based, but perhaps the software is highly parallel and works better with multiple processors? Once again, just trying to rationalize it!

Each upgrade can be improved upon with more parts! Since you're mechanically augmented, you'd have a base version of most of the skills above, and you simply improve them into a basic, intermediate and advanced level by spending more parts to upgrade them.

To summarize, it's basically the same thing as skill points expect instead of points appearing from nowhere, you find part packages. Some skills have been removed (Demolitions) and others have been combined (Environmental/Swimming, Pistol/Rifle). Its an attempt to rationalize part of the process of character/skills development and better integrate it into the game world.

AgnosticJive
15th Dec 2007, 05:29
Yeah, but it doesn't have to be in its skill point form. As long as you can develop your character in some meaningful way.

If its a prequel for example and you play a mechanically augmented agent, perhaps you can upgrade yourself with mechanical parts? That would actually MAKE some sense instead of abstract skill points. They'd be different than augmentations in that they'll be passive instead of active, and would provide smaller, incremental improvements to your subsystems. You could say, upgrade your leg actuators for better swimming, or install an oxygen filter to swim for longer, or maybe install some sort of arm control system to stabilize your aim? :D
They don't have to be specific parts - the packages could be generic mechanical/electronic upgrade containers that come in various sizes. You could collect these parts, and then at a medbot use them on whatever skill upgrade you want. You can still reward the player for exploration this way and doing certain tasks.

Heavy - Shoulder/Chest reinforcement upgrade for sturdier carrying and better aiming of heavy weapons

Pistol/Rifles - Arm stabilizers to lessen recoil and improve aim. Optional breathing stabilization for sniping :D

Ocular implants can provide general aim improvement for all ranged weapons.

Low-Tech - Arms/shoulder/chest mechanical muscle upgrades

Environmental/Swimming - Various filters and extractors that can be combined. Should be fairly cheap in terms of cost in parts.

Lock picking - Fine-motor control upgrades in wrist/hand/forearm (finger muscles and tendons)

Electronics - EM resonance detection head implant. Remember how the Deus Ex multi-tools worked? Electromagnetic resonance detection + frequency modulation of current? If you could detect the electromagnetic waves in the circuitry yourself, you'd hack through electronic systems better with the aid of a multitool ;) Obviously this shouldn't really matter to the player, but rationalizing it in the context of the world makes the game more immersive. Remember one of the things that made Deus Ex so great was that you could read more into things if you chose to do so. I bet most players didn't even read that little book on multitools during training.

Medicine - Hardware expert systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system) chips ... you already have access to a medical database :)
Oh and to make this more useful, at an advanced level it allows you to install augmentations and parts yourself without the aid of a medbot.

Computer - Like above, expect for computing. Basically, just chips you can add that aid in quicker and better decision making. Kinda doesn't make sense since these systems are software based, but perhaps the software is highly parallel and works better with multiple processors? Once again, just trying to rationalize it!

Each upgrade can be improved upon with more parts! Since you're mechanically augmented, you'd have a base version of most of the skills above, and you simply improve them into a basic, intermediate and advanced level by spending more parts to upgrade them.

To summarize, it's basically the same thing as skill points expect instead of points appearing from nowhere, you find part packages. Some skills have been removed (Demolitions) and others have been combined (Environmental/Swimming, Pistol/Rifle). Its an attempt to rationalize part of the process of character/skills development and better integrate it into the game world.


I'm gonna say the same thing here as I said on the other forum,lol. That idea isn't half bad however the idea of the skill system is that it's the characters skills,their abilities that they work on improving. I wouldn't mind seeing a skill system kinda like that in some of the mmorpgs where you level up based on your actions (i.e. you use a sword in battle...you level up your sword skill,you use a gun,you level up your gun skills,etc.) it kinda makes more sense that way.

Woggy
15th Dec 2007, 05:37
Like in MMORPGs you mean, right? Yeah, I thought about that too but it doesnt quiet work. Do you really want to sit there griding away trying to improve your skill level? Also, another problem with that is there is not cost to improving apart from wasting your time. You can theoretically have a character that rocks at everything if you spend enough time just griding away 'leveling up'. Sure maybe thats more realistic, expect in the game you won't be training for hours on how to lockpick. There is no real choice in the training based system, well, apart from 'Should I waste my time or not?" ;)

AgnosticJive
15th Dec 2007, 06:04
Not really, I mean it all comes down to fine tuning. In mmo's you level everything, in deus ex you only really leveling your helping attributes. I mean, in deus ex I rarely used the multitools, I used hacking and lockpicking and once I got the synthetic heart I just stopped using medkits and as far as weapons went I never had to level up my low-tech or demolitions since they did the same crap whether they were untrained or master level,so I just put it into pistols and rifles since that's where I needed the accuracy. If you start using a gun, and you use it regularly your AIM should improve, so it's easy to see how leveling up based on usage could work out. Plus in deus ex you can't really just go out to the meadows and shoot MJ12 troops to your hearts content, so you can't really "grind" per se.

Woggy
15th Dec 2007, 06:11
Perhaps. I still can't really see it working out too well, theres alot of possibility for problems to arise. It's also less rewarding to the player and generally just doesn't sound like any fun, or as fun as a more direct system. It also doesn't let you plan out things. Perhaps you want to switch to rifles mid game, for example, but since you haven't been using them in the first half you'll face a lot of difficulty. Or heavy weapons, cause they're so cumbersome to use at the start that you'll never really be bothered to train them properly. Though I can see your point, tweaked properly it could very well work out.

IceBallz
20th Dec 2007, 07:58
Hell, yes to skill system... A must to have in DX3...

Harakiribert
20th Dec 2007, 11:12
I agree, a skill system is definitely a must! But the balancing of the skills must be right. I mean the computer skill from DX was imo too strong with just a single point given to it.

ThatDeadDude
20th Dec 2007, 20:26
I mean the computer skill from DX was imo too strong with just a single point given to it.

Lol, I don't recall thinking that. But yes, skills are important. And IMHO, I think the way it worked in the original appeals most to me. Assuming similar game structure, the fact that there are a finite number of things to kill puts limits on the possibility of leveling by using. The idea of just upgrading by augmentations is the same thing as IW, and removes the level of complexity I'd like to see added back.

Also, I know some people have complained about the fact that JC was like a 3 year old with a gun at the start of the game. It may not be hugely realistic, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. I mean, where's the sense of character progression if you can shoot like a demon from the start?

Newbie2356
23rd Dec 2007, 02:08
Yes i want a skill system and i think it should work in two ways and two ways only (keep things simple... but not to simple like DXIW).

1: keep the skill system nearly identicle to how it worked in dx1

2: Have skill variables like they did in dx1 (lose an arm lose accuracy) but have things such as drugs to improve your aim or painkillers for when you get shot (to restore some kills like shooting and jumping and also lower others like vision)

So thats:
1:dx1 skill system
2:variables on skills

cudlla
23rd Dec 2007, 09:02
OFCURSE!!!! I can't imagine another Deus Ex without skills. Without skills it will be as same as without sounds.

Harakiribert
23rd Dec 2007, 19:19
OFCURSE!!!! I can't imagine another Deus Ex without skills. Without skills it will be as same as without sounds.

Yeah! To Everyone: Don't play IW! Just replay DX without sound! http://www.gamestar.de/community/gspinboard/images/smilies/huebscher.gif



j/k ;)

Kneo24
23rd Dec 2007, 19:24
Some sort of "skill" system isn't bad as long as the game doesn't become unplayable up to a certain point because you didn't bother to build up some other skill. That is really the only concern with any skill system idea.

pKp
23rd Dec 2007, 20:43
It's only a concern if there is only one way to accomplish an important action ;)

JulianP
25th Dec 2007, 19:19
YES. And for god's sake keep the skill system and augmentations completely separate.

DOitlikeDEUSEX1
27th Dec 2007, 05:02
Hell yes to skill points system. Extra work should be justly rewarded with better whatever.

mr_cyberpunk
27th Dec 2007, 07:36
I think DX1's skill system is flawed actually. Why can't it be a progressive system like Neocron or Morrowind? where you level up SKILLS based on actually performing those SKILLS. Because the DX1 system allows the player to use a pistol all day long but can master rifle combat or medicine without ever having to use it in game.

If it was progressive it'd mean the characters ability to say fire a pistol more accurately would come from having experience with that weapon.. put a rifle in their hands and they wouldn't be so accurate.

In DX1 you could just allocate skill points when you wanted to be good with a rifle for instance.. I think we've come a long way from those systems so progressive would work better and would ultimately not need any USER input because the more the user is kept out of menu screens the better.. menu screens ultimately clutter things up and I think games have come to the point where all input should be related to the WORLD not the INTERFACE ;)

It'd be cool also see the NPCs using the same skill and aug system as the player, DX1 only tried to mimic the users abilities (see Anna's cloaking ability) this game should try to allow things like NPCs being able to jump really high or run really fast.

Further more this could also apply to computer hacking where instead of hacking using the traditional DX1 interface the actual commands would appear on the computer screen (like Doom3). I like games that do this because it doesn't break from the world rather integrates into it.

SageSavage
27th Dec 2007, 10:40
(...) the more the user is kept out of menu screens the better.. Totally wrong in my opinion! That's what they tried with Bioshock and IW. I want to control those aspects, I want to micro-manage the healing of different body-parts, I want to memorize and type in the passes myself, I want to decide which skills to develop. It's cool to have menus that look like if they were your build in firmware-interface.
I like Oblivion's skill system but it offers teachers, bonus-points in the form of rewards etc and also you have to keep in mind that it is another franchise, following other guidelines. The system of DX1 worked great for most of us so I don't see any need to change it (like they did in IW). One issue with Oblivion's system is that it leads to grinding - which kinda ruins the pace and immersion (when you travel by jumping rather than walking, for example).

mr_cyberpunk
27th Dec 2007, 20:09
Oblivions system sucked because it required you to level up MAJOR skills only. Deus Ex 3 could do what Neocron does quite well, and yet still allows the user to ALLOCATE skills. Same with Morrowind, both games at some point require you to allocate points to a particular attribute, you never have any control over your skills rather over your physical development of your character.. the result is that you can develop your character and not cheat :D what I mean is that you can't have a Marksman suddenly be good at Healing, Oblivion did that and it sucked, Morrowind on the other hand if you allocated Healing as a minor skill it was a pain in the ass to level up.. requiring you to LEARN how to use it.

DX1's system results in the user being able to cheat in that manner.. I can Mod a pistol out to hell resulting in never having to allocate any skill points to the Pistol skill.. to compensate I'd allocate those skills to something that I just suck at and never used once in the game.. since I have so many damn skill points I'll just throw a few away, not like it makes any difference since my Pistol is already l33t. Oh looks suddenly I am a master at hacking and yet I've gotten through to this part of the game without ever having used the skill before.

The attributes would be your standard RPG stuff for this new system, STR DEX AGIL CONST INTEL ect ect. They would then govern skills. I'd compare the system to Cyberpunk 2020, Gurps Cyberpunk or even Shadowrun and I definitely think Deus Ex 3 should aim to mimic these games, since they did define Cyberpunk RPG. This would ultimately fix the flaws in the skill system and provide a much more in depth RPG experience and yet still be easy to play because the skills system is all progressive.

You could also take it further and allow Nano-Augs to have actual physical attributes too, allowing them to instead of making skills redundant like the first Deus Ex's system did actually support the skills by allowing them to be enhanced by Nano-Augs (or in the most likely case Mech-Augs too) this would ultimately mean players could rather than rely on Augs or Skills be able to rely on both. Deus Ex 1 failed to do that (Eg. Healing Aug makes Medicine Skill Redundant, Radiation Shield makes Environment Skill redundant) and further more Mods made the weapon skills in some cases redundant too.

Also Immersion is a buzz word, it has no actual game design meaning so don't use it thinking it does, so many people started using it after Oblivion, I just thinks its lame.. congrats on learning a new word!. If Todd Howard says it to try and make himself look smarter its because the man is an idiot and can't do PR without coming off as an *******.

They didn't try it in Bioshock or IWar.. I recall they had interfaces. I was refering to something like Assassin's Creed where you are never met with a skill system or inventory system.. its all action and never breaks from in-game.

SageSavage
28th Dec 2007, 00:50
Also Immersion is a buzz word, it has no actual game design meaning so don't use it thinking it does, so many people started using it after Oblivion, I just thinks its lame.. congrats on learning a new word!. If Todd Howard says it to try and make himself look smarter its because the man is an idiot and can't do PR without coming off as an ***.It may be used as a buzzword by some people but I used it to express exactly what it was meant for. It describes my experience not something in the design process but I am sure you know what it means.


They didn't try it in Bioshock or IWar.. I recall they had interfaces.IW had a very simplified skill-system and inventory and Bioshock neither of them.

mr_cyberpunk
28th Dec 2007, 04:29
My suggestion wasn't to make the system more simple rather to make it more complex and automated. I was suggesting that the govening attributes represented our physical status (one idea I had was having a PRIMARY GAIN ability where you set a particular attribute at one time that will gain a majority of EXP whilst evenly distributing it between the other attributes.) I can't see this system being a problem apart from making it much less of a game and more to the point not as traditional as Deus Ex 1.. though IWar wasn't either so its safe to assume there is room to at least expand the system a bit. I'm not suggesting removing it entirely rather suggesting ways to further govern the system so that instead of incremental EXP and allocation the system could work more as to how a human learns and develops.

Or we could just make a video game system which is flat, boring and allows so many loopholes like the original Deus Ex. The skill system is flawed IMO and needs fixing because you can't have skills become redundant.. that is punnishing players that don't know any better.

LuciusDeBeers
29th Dec 2007, 16:06
Bring back the skills system but seperate the skills and skill points into groups i.e. combat, infiltration and miscellanious, so that sneaking in a base as oppossed to blasting your way in will award you infiltration skill points to spend on enhancing your infiltration skills and vice versa (combat skill points for engaging in combat).

Augmentations should have a similiar approach e.g. vision augmentation would be a choice between combat (view targeting information on opponents) or infiltration (view security cameras/bots fov, thermal imaging etc.)

A smart player would use the skills to balance out the augs or the other way round.

The miscellanious category would incorporate skills/augs such as health, swimming etc.

gazzari
3rd Jan 2008, 06:20
I think DX1's skill system is flawed actually. Why can't it be a progressive system like Neocron or Morrowind? where you level up SKILLS based on actually performing those SKILLS. Because the DX1 system allows the player to use a pistol all day long but can master rifle combat or medicine without ever having to use it in game.

If it was progressive it'd mean the characters ability to say fire a pistol more accurately would come from having experience with that weapon.. put a rifle in their hands and they wouldn't be so accurate.

In DX1 you could just allocate skill points when you wanted to be good with a rifle for instance.. I think we've come a long way from those systems so progressive would work better and would ultimately not need any USER input because the more the user is kept out of menu screens the better.. menu screens ultimately clutter things up and I think games have come to the point where all input should be related to the WORLD not the INTERFACE ;)

It'd be cool also see the NPCs using the same skill and aug system as the player, DX1 only tried to mimic the users abilities (see Anna's cloaking ability) this game should try to allow things like NPCs being able to jump really high or run really fast.

Further more this could also apply to computer hacking where instead of hacking using the traditional DX1 interface the actual commands would appear on the computer screen (like Doom3). I like games that do this because it doesn't break from the world rather integrates into it.

Actually I do agree that the point system was flawed. You could basically buy your way to skills. I have thought about this on and off, and just a week or two back discovered DX3 was being created. And the creators appear to be taking some feedback. To throw a few ideas around....

1. Points system - give points for skills performed as cyberpunk says. Maybe points system as follows, as gave progresses,
pass level 1 - 20pts,
pass level 2 - 30pts,
pass level 3 - 40pts, etc [edit - or rather just automatically adds to skills used]

For each level have a sucess bonus, ie,
maintain complete stealth through the level=bonus 20pts,
maintain complete stealth through a 2nd level=bonus 30pts,
maintain complete stealth through a 3nd level=bonus 40pts, etc
Starting a new skill starts that at the base skill points rewards. ie, at 20pts
Giving that levels can be completed using many ways, then using the same skill continuously adds skill points faster, or rather just automatically adds to skills used. So using 1 skill 5 times gives more rewards than using 5 different skills on 5 different levels.
Hope you understand what I mean.

2. Day night system. Excellent idea, but thats not all, use this "time" system to allow practice sessions at the barracks, firing range or wherever else skills may be learned. But these fit in when a mission has to be completed at a certain time of the day. You also need to sleep/get nano repairs etc at certain times. ie you need to rest for 4 hours..... You need to make sure you have energy reserves, the right equipment etc for each mission. But due to time constraints you can only practice 1 skill.... If a mission is not accomplished in a certain time of, you fail. Have to do it a different way. (thinking out loud) Or maybe have to go back tomorrow. Obviously with less skill rewards for longer time.

3. Stealth. one thing I thought was really bad in DX1 (&DX2 for that matter) After you alerted the enemy, they would forget you was even there after about 30secs to a minute. Why? Thats garbage. If your cover has been compromised, the enemy should be on watch/actively looking for you for the WHOLE mission. So, if you are going to go the way of stealth, you need to make sure you are not seen for the whole mission, take enemies down while another can't see you, then move the body, hide it. An enemy walking over a dead body and acting as if nothing happened? Take stealth to the "real" level. AI know when one of theirs are missing, they then go looking. For a considerable time. Maybe even forcing you to abandon because first light has appeared. ie, your careless actions mean you take longer than the window of time the job required.

Thats about all for now. I loved DX1. One of my fav games of all time. And I dont play so called 1st person shooters. I am a race sim junkie. rFactor to be exact. Belonging to 2 clubs in Oz. The only other "shooter" I played was Mafia. Loved the setting, the 30's had something about it. Had an awesome story, if not too scripted for me. Totally opposite to DX's unscipted play, which is what got me in.


After reading some other posts in the forum.
Get rid of universal ammo. Get rid of picking up oppositions ammo that fits your gun. The opposition has guns that require "their" ammo. Wanna use their ammo, then pick up an enemies gun fill it with ammo found in the enemies belts or supply boxes nearby. At the start of each level, get your ammo at the armoury. You should have some idea what you are gunna need. Ask the reconaisnace guy on site (phone) what he thinks you need before you board the helicopter for the overnight flight that puts you onsite at 5:30am, just before first light.

Oh, and the options you were given in game? You were able to swap sides at will in IW (DX2) You only swapped once in DX1. In IW, if you shot a guy, then you went on a bit and shot a guy from the other side, you didn't end up with no friends? Basically in IW, you were better off to kill all the enemy and the guys you were supposed to be fighting for as well, it gave better rewards, ammo, or whatever. (can't remember exactly, only played it once)

gamer0004
3rd Jan 2008, 10:26
A succes bonus? Missions aren't training courses, you know. That kind of skill system is way too arcade-ish.
And although DX is an RPG, the RPG system in DX isn't important enough to make it that complexe. Being able to train at the shooting range would be cool, though.

Red
3rd Jan 2008, 11:41
3. Stealth. one thing I thought was really bad in DX1 (&DX2 for that matter) After you alerted the enemy, they would forget you was even there after about 30secs to a minute. Why? Thats garbage. If your cover has been compromised, the enemy should be on watch/actively looking for you for the WHOLE mission. So, if you are going to go the way of stealth, you need to make sure you are not seen for the whole mission, take enemies down while another can't see you, then move the body, hide it. An enemy walking over a dead body and acting as if nothing happened? Take stealth to the "real" level. AI know when one of theirs are missing, they then go looking. For a considerable time. Maybe even forcing you to abandon because first light has appeared. ie, your careless actions mean you take longer than the window of time the job required.

I liked the DX1 way. It'd kill the gameplay if it were the way you described it.

professen
3rd Jan 2008, 17:24
I do of course want I skill system. It was a great drawback for IW leaving this feature. I don't want to be able to shoot nonstop with fully automated weapons while jumping like a rabbit.
I also think that it is very important to have a greater viarity of weapons. And the inventory should be more like the one in DX.

Alex D
3rd Jan 2008, 18:59
Hell yeah to skill points! It's what made Dx1 kick ass!