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WhatsHisFace
11th Dec 2007, 22:52
I will leave all non-visual factors regarding the protagonist to the developers, as they're the ones who know the game's story, how the game will play and the needs our character will have to meet. But the visual side of our character is just as important.

I don't know what's been approved in terms of art yet, but if you're still developing the protagonist's look, (or designs will be revisited over development) please, we have to play as a near carbon copy of J.C. Denton in Deus Ex 1.

Sunglasses.
Bullet-proof vest under a trenchcoat.
Visible augmentations.
No anime-hair please.

It was made clear that Alex Denton wore a purple ranger outfit because The Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions were fresh on everyone's mind and Ion (or Eidos) didn't want the people thinking Deus Ex was a ripoff.

That's no longer an issue. Give us our cool looking character back.

CarloGervasi
11th Dec 2007, 23:14
I agree. The male Alex D looked like he had downs, and the female model didn't look much better until that John P texture pack. Remember the importance of getting a good voice actor for the main character too. We're going to be hearing this guy/girl the entire game. Again, going back to male Alex D, the guy sounded like he lactated off screen. It really detracted from the game. Get a guy that doesn't sound like a card board cut out, that actually sounds like this augmented badass that we're supposed to be.

pKp
11th Dec 2007, 23:26
Well, it must be a badass, that's for sure. But it doesn't need to be a JC Denton/Neo ripoff. Also, it would be kinda neat to have a choice of clothes available (affecting the game mechanisms, of course).

WhatsHisFace
12th Dec 2007, 01:19
Well, it must be a badass, that's for sure. But it doesn't need to be a JC Denton/Neo ripoff. Also, it would be kinda neat to have a choice of clothes available (affecting the game mechanisms, of course).
I can agree with variants. Like a "Tank" style character looking more armored and a "Thief" style character looking more sleek, but that would have to be dynamic or chosen at the beginning of the game, and may not be worth the developer's time.

In the end it's important that he looks like he belongs in the Deus Ex universe. Alex D dressed like an NSF pawn without the headgear. Not terribly interesting.

StormFront
12th Dec 2007, 10:33
I will leave all non-visual factors regarding the protagonist to the developers, as they're the ones who know the game's story, how the game will play and the needs our character will have to meet. But the visual side of our character is just as important.

I don't know what's been approved in terms of art yet, but if you're still developing the protagonist's look, (or designs will be revisited over development) please, we have to play as a near carbon copy of J.C. Denton in Deus Ex 1.

Sunglasses.
Bullet-proof vest under a trenchcoat.
Visible augmentations.
No anime-hair please.

It was made clear that Alex Denton wore a purple ranger outfit because The Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions were fresh on everyone's mind and Ion (or Eidos) didn't want the people thinking Deus Ex was a ripoff.

That's no longer an issue. Give us our cool looking character back.


You think JC looks cool? Are you nuts? Do you think Action Man looks swish too? A BPV in a world that high tech? What would it do exactly?

Montreal would have to be suffering an aneurism to design another character like JC. The outfit will be dtermined by who the character actually is, not by some werid fetish about JC bloody Denton.... (And there should be no visible augs either as they are not mechanical in any way i.e. no wiring - just nanotech...)

Oh and all this bunk about Alex D not being "butch" enough is just laughable. He was a kid FFS, that was the point. The character needs to be what the character needs to be...

WhatsHisFace
12th Dec 2007, 16:56
You think JC looks cool? Are you nuts? Do you think Action Man looks swish too? A BPV in a world that high tech? What would it do exactly?

Montreal would have to be suffering an aneurism to design another character like JC. The outfit will be dtermined by who the character actually is, not by some werid fetish about JC bloody Denton.... (And there should be no visible augs either as they are not mechanical in any way i.e. no wiring - just nanotech...)

Oh and all this bunk about Alex D not being "butch" enough is just laughable. He was a kid FFS, that was the point. The character needs to be what the character needs to be...
And his style doesn't need to be forfeit to "lame" right off the bat. If you think Alex D's design is the best possibility within the parameters of the character you're giving too much credit to a bland design. He looked like a StarTrek ripoff.

Edit: I can't believe you don't like JC's design. Shame on you.

Loneranger
12th Dec 2007, 22:44
You think JC looks cool? Are you nuts? Do you think Action Man looks swish too? A BPV in a world that high tech? What would it do exactly?

Montreal would have to be suffering an aneurism to design another character like JC. The outfit will be dtermined by who the character actually is, not by some werid fetish about JC bloody Denton.... (And there should be no visible augs either as they are not mechanical in any way i.e. no wiring - just nanotech...)

Oh and all this bunk about Alex D not being "butch" enough is just laughable. He was a kid FFS, that was the point. The character needs to be what the character needs to be...

In my opinion, I completely agree with StromFront here. So yeah, at the time, we all thought JC looked the business, but now? No way. It'd be more dated than 19th century photography (Lol, I say this, but DX1 is in the future, so technically it hasn't happened yet but still).

I think that contrary to what is apparently popular belief, Alex D looked a lot better and was a large improvement. Also, instead of saying "JC this" and Alex D" that, A completely new model may be in order. I do think that you should be able to choose things like physique when creating your character. I feel that there was not enough choice in I.W. when it came down to character design.

--Loneranger

StormFront
12th Dec 2007, 22:46
In my opinion, I completely agree with StromFront here. So yeah, at the time, we all thought JC looked the business, but now? No way. It'd be more dated than 19th century photography (Lol, I say this, but DX1 is in the future, so technically it hasn't happened yet but still).

I think that contrary to what is apparently popular belief, Alex D looked a lot better and was a large improvement. Also, instead of saying "JC this" and Alex D" that, A completely new model may be in order. I do think that you should be able to choose things like physique when creating your character. I feel that there was not enough choice in I.W. when it came down to character design.

--Loneranger

<adjusts tie>
Thank you gentlemen, my work here is done!

Next!...










<j/k>:D

WhatsHisFace
13th Dec 2007, 01:13
In my opinion, I completely agree with StromFront here. So yeah, at the time, we all thought JC looked the business, but now? No way. It'd be more dated than 19th century photography (Lol, I say this, but DX1 is in the future, so technically it hasn't happened yet but still).

I think that contrary to what is apparently popular belief, Alex D looked a lot better and was a large improvement. Also, instead of saying "JC this" and Alex D" that, A completely new model may be in order. I do think that you should be able to choose things like physique when creating your character. I feel that there was not enough choice in I.W. when it came down to character design.

--Loneranger
A guy in a purple leotard is hardly an improvement over a tough-guy in body-armor and a trench-coat. I suggest you take a look at how little clothing has changed over the past 100 years. It's not likely to differ greatly in the next 100 either.

Laputin Man
13th Dec 2007, 03:21
A guy in a purple leotard is hardly an improvement over a tough-guy in body-armor and a trench-coat. I suggest you take a look at how little clothing has changed over the past 100 years. It's not likely to differ greatly in the next 100 either.

I agree with WhatsHisFace, JC looked much better than Alex. Alex looked very plain and bland in my opinion. They should have at least kept the body armor look or went in some sort of different direction.

Fuzzman
13th Dec 2007, 04:40
I found the appearances of JC and Alex to be perfectly fine. The important thing is not whether the protagonist's appearance is "butch" or "tough" or whatnot, but whether it is unique to the protagonist and plays well off of his/her personality, physical build, facial appearance, etc. Unless the protagonist is JC or Alex, I would expect his/her appearance to be completely different. There are countless possibilities at hand.

AgnosticJive
13th Dec 2007, 07:44
I'm going to have to agree with the other half on this one...I really don't like how JC looked at all. (I won't even discuss alex,he's the bastard denton clone...even though technically they're all bastards.) I really think that the team will put some serious thought into the character design however,I'm just hoping they make it look like real clothes (or a real uniform...whatever setting the character is coming from) because everyone in deus ex either looks like a hobo or like they're going into an unending battle with the undead goth forces. Actually, come to think of it character design and style seems to be a bit of a hard thing to nail down in video games...they are a LOT of weird looking characters out there.

(if all else fails...you can just make customizable character looks...that way you can appease the neo/JC goth people and all the other people that aren't.)

StormFront
13th Dec 2007, 10:56
A guy in a purple leotard is hardly an improvement over a tough-guy in body-armor and a trench-coat. I suggest you take a look at how little clothing has changed over the past 100 years. It's not likely to differ greatly in the next 100 either.

What the heck are you smoking? Alex wore what was essentially a leather bikers outfit. It was fractionally coloured in a purple hue but so what? Does an outfit have to black before you'll accept it? That's just silly.

You are just being daft now...

/me disregards the rest of this nonsense....

WhatsHisFace
13th Dec 2007, 17:49
What the heck are you smoking? Alex wore what was essentially a leather bikers outfit. It was fractionally coloured in a purple hue but so what? Does an outfit have to black before you'll accept it? That's just silly.

You are just being daft now...

/me disregards the rest of this nonsense....
You are aware that Deus Ex is a cyber-punk themed game right? Cyberpunk (which has been described as "high tech and low life") has a more gritty look to it than StarTrek. The whole look of Deus Ex: Invisible War was an affront to the art style of the first Deus Ex, which worked so well with the themes of the game. Especially in terms of character design. Alex D. just looks too squeaky-clean and unprepared for an apocalyptic future. It also clashes on the level considering he's a guy who's supposed to be facing danger often.

SageSavage
13th Dec 2007, 18:02
Alex looks streamlined which perfectly fits the game. I don't like it, no matter how hard I try. JC looked a little bit too babyfaced, could have been more like Humphrey Bogart for me.

Laputin Man
13th Dec 2007, 18:06
Alex looks streamlined which perfectly fits the game. I don't like it, no matter how hard I try. JC looked a little bit too babyfaced, could have been more like Humphrey Bogart for me.

I can maybe agree with you there I suppose and I like the fact that you chose Humphrey Bogart because to me the voice acting for JC reminded me of a character from out of some old black and white noir film. But I really can't think of anything that they could have done to push that image much more than giving him a 5 O'clock shadow really. Do you have any ideas?

SageSavage
13th Dec 2007, 18:27
No, I don't. I think it could be the low res-textures lacking some details (eg pores and wrinkles). A problem of the past. Maybe a little scar could have helped.

And yes, I definitely see similarities between noir and cyberpunk.

Loneranger
13th Dec 2007, 18:46
Well, there's no need to start a war about this guys. It all depends when and where this game will be set. If it is set after DX IW then presumably the player character will be:
A) A denton of some sort.
B) In a utopian society (Due to the outcome. Depends which ending Eidos will go with. Probably ambiguous).

If it follows B) then obviously you won't need to be dressed for combat, or at least yet anyways, I mean utopian suggests no war.

Laputin Man
13th Dec 2007, 19:00
Well, there's no need to start a war about this guys. It all depends when and where this game will be set. If it is set after DX IW then presumably the player character will be:
A) A denton of some sort.
B) In a utopian society (Due to the outcome. Depends which ending Eidos will go with. Probably ambiguous).

If it follows B) then obviously you won't need to be dressed for combat, or at least yet anyways, I mean utopian suggests no war.

Wait, I thought I was quoting some one who suggested choosing different outfits from the start. That may be a good idea. I would like to see the same darker look everything had from the first game because like WhatsHisFace said, the cyber punk genre is usually associated with dark and gritty settings and I would even say clothing. But also, I don't remember everyone in Blade Runner wearing dark trench coats and what not.

WhatsHisFace
13th Dec 2007, 22:43
Well, there's no need to start a war about this guys. It all depends when and where this game will be set. If it is set after DX IW then presumably the player character will be:
A) A denton of some sort.
B) In a utopian society (Due to the outcome. Depends which ending Eidos will go with. Probably ambiguous).

If it follows B) then obviously you won't need to be dressed for combat, or at least yet anyways, I mean utopian suggests no war.

I hope nobody's getting me wrong here. This isn't a pogrom to annihilate people who liked the appearance of Alex D. I'm fully aware that in the end this is all in the Art Department's hands, or the Focus Testings depending on how you look at things... but I just wanted this thread to reinforce to the Montreal team that it's okay for the main character to be one of the toughest guys in the game, with looks to match.

Not enough game main-characters have sunglasses these days. :(

I really liked the look of Deus Ex and I was disappointed that Deus Ex: Invisible War didn't follow through with the look. No other game followed the look.

Jimmy184
15th Dec 2007, 15:53
For me Alex D was a bit softcore. A lot of NPC's in IW would say 'you look modified' but Alex just looks like a normal person. Alex D didn't look at all bad in the renders you see on the box and wallpapers, but in-game it wasn't too impressive. I must say that I prefer JC's style.

What would be cool is if the augs that you use to some extent effect how to protagonist actually looks. For example, different eye effects/colours/glow for visual mods, strengh augs bulking up the arms visually and speed augs giving the player a more athletic looking body.

pigfreezer
16th Dec 2007, 18:42
It probably isn't the reason why I disliked DeusEx:InvisibleWar, but Alex D.'s looks left a lot to be desired : in 2001, you played a game which put you in the skin of an nano-augmented agent who really seemed to fit with the environment. The guy was cold, distant, lacked emotions but remained constantly ultra rational and clever. Then, we were offered a sequel to this game, in which we played a young fellow called Alex, with spiky hair and the voice of an adolescent.
And some people were perfectly content with this.

Well, I know a sequel isn't supposed to be a direct continuation of the events from the previous iteration but this change of character was a big disappointment to me.

I want a tough character as the hero. And JC Denton was spot-on.

Dave W
16th Dec 2007, 20:16
I don't know what's been approved in terms of art yet, but if you're still developing the protagonist's look, (or designs will be revisited over development) please, we have to play as a near carbon copy of J.C. Denton in Deus Ex 1.

Yes Eidos, you MUST DO THIS.

Because this guy says so.

AgnosticJive
16th Dec 2007, 21:57
I really don't understand why everyone thinks JC looks cool. He makes me think of those little goth kids that end up shooting up a school because they think nobody understands what they're going through despite the fact that everyone else in their school is pretty much going through the same crap. That being said, I'm not a fan of the whole sunglasses at night and trench coat look which for some reason everyone seems to think makes the character look "tough" yet I fail to see,hell I felt that the MJ12 commandos and the hard-aug agents looked years tougher than JC ever could,you want tough look at Wesker and Krauser from Resident Evil,those are two tough badasses. And yes,alex didn't look any better, but I think it would be pretty easy to make a better looking character then either one.

and why is everyone so set on the dentons? if they decide to make another character...you know,one BEFORE THE DENTONS WERE EVEN AROUND,it wouldn't be a bad move,you people would just have to learn to live with the fact that not every game needs the exact same character as the one you have wet dreams about.

SageSavage
16th Dec 2007, 22:11
I really don't understand why everyone thinks JC looks cool. (...) and why is everyone so set on the dentons? (...) you people would just have to learn to live with the fact that not every game needs the exact same character as the one you have wet dreams about.
So you dislike what everybody else likes. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask yourself why you don't instead of mildly offending the others for their taste?:rolleyes:

AgnosticJive
16th Dec 2007, 22:54
So you dislike what everybody else likes. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask yourself why you don't instead of mildly offending the others for their taste?:rolleyes:

normally,yes...but so far nobody has really brought up a valid reason as to why they think he looks cool,now if they were to tell me they shop at hot topic and wear all leather themselves...I would understand fully. But how does a trench coat and sunglasses at night make you a badass?

StormFront
16th Dec 2007, 23:41
normally,yes...but so far nobody has really brought up a valid reason as to why they think he looks cool,now if they were to tell me they shop at hot topic and wear all leather themselves...I would understand fully. But how does a trench coat and sunglasses at night make you a badass?

Because most other gamers are 13 years old...

Sad but true.

The sunglasses/trenchcoat look is still cool to that part of the population, thus the ridicule of Alex D.

So sad...

AgnosticJive
17th Dec 2007, 00:48
Yeah, I suppose. My whole issue with this is that people just seem to find JC as some unstoppable badass (which is what every main character basically is in every game ever made...master chief? dante? marcus fenix?) now that's fine and dandy but I really don't want some guy wearing a trenchcoat and sunglasses...the only people I've ever met that wear sunglasses at night only do so because they're so coked up. Now personally I've never met anyone who wears a trenchcoat,but the people I have seen wear trenchcoats either A. Paint their fingernails black,wear eyeliner,and talk about how depressing life is. or B. wear a trenchcoat so they can run around opening it up and exposing themselves to old ugly women.

But hey,I guess those of us who have grown up seem to be in the minority.

RÆPËR
17th Dec 2007, 02:25
Just get a conny do to the main character voice. Preferably one that chain smokes and has a real raspy voice :)

WhatsHisFace
17th Dec 2007, 03:06
normally,yes...but so far nobody has really brought up a valid reason as to why they think he looks cool,now if they were to tell me they shop at hot topic and wear all leather themselves...I would understand fully. But how does a trench coat and sunglasses at night make you a badass?
Really it's just more an "iconic" look. JC Denton really had his aesthetics separate from other game characters because he had a great cyberpunk look to him. Alex D. was dressed more like Mr. Spock.

SageSavage
17th Dec 2007, 04:26
Trenchcoat = private investigator / detective = anti-hero = Cyberpunk / noir

sunglasses = A tool to hide his augmented eyes, bit like in Terminator and also sunglasses are commonly percieved as cool, as seen in Matrix and tons of other stories.

@StormFront: I am not 13. Not sad but true.

AgnosticJive
17th Dec 2007, 04:33
Really it's just more an "iconic" look. JC Denton really had his aesthetics separate from other game characters because he had a great cyberpunk look to him. Alex D. was dressed more like Mr. Spock.

Yeah well look at Keanu Reeves who has become the live-action cyberpunk poster boy...you have neo and then the butchered and not quite true to the original,but classic Johnny Mnemonic. Both are kind of cyberpunk icons now, but I find Johnny Mnemonic to be a more realistic and classic example of what cyberpunk is,despite the fact that he isn't dressed like a gothic warrior ready to go on a shooting spree only to become omnipotent and all but unstoppable.

Now as far as cyberpunk aesthetics go, most stories are written stories with very little for cisuals, animes, mangas, films, and even the occasional show give a more visual look towards the whole cyberpunk setting yet everyone on here seems to dislike the anime visuals and in most shows and movies that draw upon cyberpunk elements very very few of them if not close to none have people running around in baggy clothing wearing sunglasses.

But whatever,I've given more than enough reasons why I believe JC looks ridiculous and nobody has really said anything other than he looks "tough" or some silly crap like that. I give up.

(by the way,paul and walton simons both had augmented vision and niether one of them wore sunglasses. and trench coated detectives may be noir...noir doesn't equal cyberpunk.)

SageSavage
17th Dec 2007, 04:53
Now as far as cyberpunk aesthetics go, most stories are written stories with very little for cisuals, animes, mangas, films, and even the occasional show give a more visual look towards the whole cyberpunk setting yet everyone on here seems to dislike the anime visuals and in most shows and movies that draw upon cyberpunk elements very very few of them if not close to none have people running around in baggy clothing wearing sunglasses.
Ever seen Ghost in the Shell?

AgnosticJive
17th Dec 2007, 08:54
Ever seen Ghost in the Shell?

Seen both seasons,own both of the movies,and have read the manga. I don't recall Aramaki, Batou, Gouda, Ishikawa,Major Kusanagi, Kuze, Saito, Togusa, or really any other character with anything close to a reoccurring appearence wearing trenchcoats. Now nudity, suits, body armor, and what I'm pretty sure is a members only jacket (thank you batou) I do remember seeing. Don't recall ever seeing sunglasses either...I do recall seeing plenty of artificial eyes though.

Dave W
17th Dec 2007, 16:26
What does it matter what the cyberpunk aesthetic is? Deus Ex's aesthetic isn't Cyberpunk at all.

SageSavage
17th Dec 2007, 16:55
Oh no...not again... :whistle:

@AgnosticJive:
Well, watch it again or do a quick picture search with Google. Even on the posters for the first movie were big fat sunglasses.

- http://laserdisc.holin.de/ghostintheshell_german.jpg
- http://www.ghostintheshell.com.au/2ndgig/subs/extras/wallpapers/1024_01.jpg

So you'd say it's a good idea to run trough run down streets with plenty of gangs, starving kids and shady characters... in a business suite like Johnny Mnemonic?!

AgnosticJive
17th Dec 2007, 17:39
Oh no...not again... :whistle:

@AgnosticJive:
Well, watch it again or do a quick picture search with Google. Even on the posters for the first movie were big fat sunglasses.

- http://laserdisc.holin.de/ghostintheshell_german.jpg
- http://www.ghostintheshell.com.au/2ndgig/subs/extras/wallpapers/1024_01.jpg

So you'd say it's a good idea to run trough run down streets with plenty of gangs, starving kids and shady characters... in a business suite like Johnny Mnemonic?!

Yeah...that was all promotional artwork, she wore glasses and/or a trench coat for maybe a total of five minutes in the entirety of the animated works.

AND HELL YEAH,everyone looks badass in a suit (well,almost everyone.) The mafia does it on a daily basis, are you saying that you're better than la coka nostra?

and to Dave...yeah,deus ex is basically cyberpunk. I guess I'm kinda just foolish in thinking that with all these advances in technology people collectively decide to wear leather like a worldwide S&M club. Looks like those megacorporations started out as hot topics.

ThatDeadDude
17th Dec 2007, 18:55
I think I'm breaking the rhythm of this argument, but maybe it's for the best ;). I think I preferred the way JC looked. Not necessarily because he wore sunglasses and a trenchcoat, but more just because he, I dunno, had a better "feel" to me. In general the less washed out look of IW just didn't do it for me.

If they return as many RPG elements as I'd like them to, I kinda hope they put in some system of customisation. Not so insane as Oblivion (or more so, Morrowind when it comes to clothing) but I think it's cool to get your character looking how you want. Obviously, being able to do such a thing would also depend a lot on the environment available to you, but if it were possible for it to make sense, I'd like to see it. When I was messing around modding DX, I got it going. Admittedly it was a mess, but still fun.

Dave W
17th Dec 2007, 19:41
Oh no...not again... :whistle:

As much as people want to say the rest of the game is Cyberpunk, the aesthetic undeniably isn't.

Laputin Man
18th Dec 2007, 05:16
Because most other gamers are 13 years old...

Sad but true.

The sunglasses/trenchcoat look is still cool to that part of the population, thus the ridicule of Alex D.

So sad...



http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9342


Please read that article, I know it is over a year old but should still hold some truth. Why do you insist on jumping to insulting conclusions?


Also Agnostic, watch a cyberpunk classic you may of heard of called Blade Runner. In the movie which takes place in the future, the main character wears a trench coat. Maybe... just maybe they took inspiration from that and put it in the game. I don't really think when making the game they decided to make JC look like that to target the trench coat wearing goth demographic, because god knows there are sooo many of those out there:rolleyes:


Also, what is wrong in wanting to play as a character that looks "tough"? Would you rather play as some guy who is really in touch with his sensitive side while blowing up things and saving the world? Maybe he could quietly sob and mutter to himself as he does? In gaming main characters in games have been the spitting image of tough. From Duke Nukem to Dante, it is what we have all been raised with as gamers growing up and is in some way what we have come to expect.

Laputin Man
18th Dec 2007, 05:28
Also, how was Deus Ex not Cyberpunk?

"Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body."[2]


That relates to the story and the main character of JC a lot in Deus Ex. Here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk. If you read on it goes in depth about the cyber punk genre and what that all entails. Deus Ex was a cyber punk themed game. It meets all the requirements.


I should also add for Agnostic's sake that the Cyberpunk genre drew inspiration from noir. If you watch or have seen Blade Runner, you can see it clearly in that film.

StormFront
18th Dec 2007, 07:02
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9342


Please read that article, I know it is over a year old but should still hold some truth. Why do you insist on jumping to insulting conclusions?

Ah yes, but ther is a part of that articles title missing. It should read:

ESA Stats: Average U.S. Gamer 33 Years Old and still lives in his moms basement, has yet to learn what girls are for and is around 300lbs overweight...



Also Agnostic, watch a cyberpunk classic you may of heard of called Blade Runner. In the movie which takes place in the future, the main character wears a trench coat. Maybe... just maybe they took inspiration from that and put it in the game. I don't really think when making the game they decided to make JC look like that to target the trench coat wearing goth demographic, because god knows there are sooo many of those out there:rolleyes:


Also, what is wrong in wanting to play as a character that looks "tough"? Would you rather play as some guy who is really in touch with his sensitive side while blowing up things and saving the world? Maybe he could quietly sob and mutter to himself as he does? In gaming main characters in games have been the spitting image of tough. From Duke Nukem to Dante, it is what we have all been raised with as gamers growing up and is in some way what we have come to expect.

Look, the main problem with the look of JC is that it is a dull-as-hell stereotype. He did not look hard. He looked like a skinny little white boy with no dress sense who was desperately struggling with his sexuallity (I mean come on - he is SO gay! (and that in the words of my best mate who is a bigger queen than anyone here!))

I want my protagonist to be someone who is believeable and the simple fact is that I woul point and laugh at some over-compensating, macho burk who dressd like JC. It's just too much.

Sure Alex's hair ws a bit much and the terrible charcter animation of the IW engine made him look a bit muppet like, but JC just looked like any of the pre-pubescent EMO heads I can see hanging around my local rock club.

As to this cyber-punk gubbins - Cyber-punk only offers a wink and a nudge to Noir due to a few films. Neuromancer is certainly not very Noir, and it is absolutely nothing like DX. The DX universe never really felt very cyber-punkish to me, mostly becasue of the music and the pace of the action. A cyber-punk game would need to be slower and more sinister IMHO

AgnosticJive
18th Dec 2007, 07:34
Thank you storm front.

Yes,I've seen blade runner,and I've also seen harrison ford run around with a whip and a fedora. I've also seen enough noir films to know that the cigarette smoking/OVERCOAT (note:NOT LEATHER) wearing detectives were a noir staple, but there's a difference between drawing inspiration from and completely copying. The main noir influence in cyberpunk is the dialog, not the clothing. Also, as I've been trying to say but nobody can just seem to grasp, running around in sunglasses and a trenchcoat doesn't look tough, it makes you look like you're either about to shoot up a school or you're about to flash your genitals in front of whomever you cross. Hell,pretty boy leon looked tougher in a bomber jacket in RE:4.

(by the way,don't know who is into RE,but if you are,and you read this,have you seen the degeneration trailer? thoughts?)

Laputin Man
18th Dec 2007, 07:44
Ah yes, but ther is a part of that articles title missing. It should read:

ESA Stats: Average U.S. Gamer 33 Years Old and still lives in his moms basement, has yet to learn what girls are for and is around 300lbs overweight...



And being some one who has allegedly played more games than anyone else here, according to another one of your posts... would this make you an expert on the subject? Insults and stereotypes aside, those are still the facts. And I don't see why you feel the need to jump to insulting conclusions just because people don't share your point of view.



Look, the main problem with the look of JC is that it is a dull-as-hell stereotype. He did not look hard. He looked like a skinny little white boy with no dress sense who was desperately struggling with his sexuallity (I mean come on - he is SO gay! (and that in the words of my best mate who is a bigger queen than anyone here!))

I want my protagonist to be someone who is believeable and the simple fact is that I woul point and laugh at some over-compensating, macho burk who dressd like JC. It's just too much.

Sure Alex's hair ws a bit much and the terrible charcter animation of the IW engine made him look a bit muppet like, but JC just looked like any of the pre-pubescent EMO heads I can see hanging around my local rock club.

Wearing loose fitting clothing is perceived as gay as opposed to skin tight clothing? And the fact that he wears sunglasses makes him EMO? And you honestly think that Alex Denton... who looked like a mix between Carson Daily and Ryan Seacrest looked more intimidating? Alex looked boring, he looked like the boring people of this time... but with a skin tight suit of the future. He looked like an extra in a star trek movie.




As to this cyber-punk gubbins - Cyber-punk only offers a wink and a nudge to Noir due to a few films. Neuromancer is certainly not very Noir, and it is absolutely nothing like DX. The DX universe never really felt very cyber-punkish to me, mostly becasue of the music and the pace of the action. A cyber-punk game would need to be slower and more sinister IMHO

Never said that Cyberpunk drew heavily from noir, but it does draw some inspiration from it. And how did it not feel cyberpunk? What does pacing really have to do with it, or how sinister the story may have been? Those are just kind of two vague terms. I could say that DX wasn't cyberpunk because it was runny and needs more black pepper. It meets every requirement in the storyline and setting to be cyberpunk. Many many reviews of the game mentioned how levels like the Hong Kong level resembled scenes out of Bladerunner and they also mention that it has a cyberpunk theme.
It could feel like a romantic comedy to you but that doesn't change the fact that it was cyberpunk.

Laputin Man
18th Dec 2007, 08:38
Thank you storm front.

Yes,I've seen blade runner,and I've also seen harrison ford run around with a whip and a fedora. I've also seen enough noir films to know that the cigarette smoking/OVERCOAT (note:NOT LEATHER) wearing detectives were a noir staple, but there's a difference between drawing inspiration from and completely copying. The main noir influence in cyberpunk is the dialog, not the clothing. Also, as I've been trying to say but nobody can just seem to grasp, running around in sunglasses and a trenchcoat doesn't look tough, it makes you look like you're either about to shoot up a school or you're about to flash your genitals in front of whomever you cross. Hell,pretty boy leon looked tougher in a bomber jacket in RE:4.

(by the way,don't know who is into RE,but if you are,and you read this,have you seen the degeneration trailer? thoughts?)


First off, what does it matter what material the coat is made out of really? And who completely copied what? And the main influence cyberpunk draws from noir may be dialogue but it can also encompass other things like fashion. Again, Blade Runner did this and I am sure they aren't the only one to do so.

And what is up with your obsessive distaste for sunglasses and trenchcoats? Columbine happened many years ago, its odd to take it out on an article of clothing when many people shoot and kill each other wearing all sorts of different things every day. They are just less televised. There must be countless times where some guy shot another for wearing the wrong colors in his "hood"... a guy that probably holds his gun all sideways like thishttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/Dxinvwar.jpg.


Besides, do you also share the same distaste for turbans and people who wear them because of the events of 911? Would you then say that you hate or dislike Muslims? I doubt the answer is yes, but it is just as absurd as what you keep bringing up.



And no, haven't seen the RE trailer you mentioned, guess I'll check it out.

MaxxQ1
18th Dec 2007, 09:58
Ah yes, but ther is a part of that articles title missing. It should read:

ESA Stats: Average U.S. Gamer 33 Years Old and still lives in his moms basement, has yet to learn what girls are for and is around 300lbs overweight...


I'm 43, live on my own, my computer room and bedroom are on the second floor, I have five kids (2 girls - 20 and 16 - and 3 boys - 10, 9, and 7), and I'm only 50 lbs overweight:rasp:

Frankly, I couldn't care less how JC (or whoever) looks, as long as the game is fun to play.

StormFront
18th Dec 2007, 10:00
I'm 43, live on my own, my computer room and bedroom are on the second floor, I have five kids (2 girls - 20 and 16 - and 3 boys - 10, 9, and 7), and I'm only 50 lbs overweight:rasp:

Frankly, I couldn't care less how JC (or whoever) looks, as long as the game is fun to play.



LOL!

At least someone can spot sarcasm when they see it.

I agree about the avatar too. TBH though I think we will likely get quite a customerisable avatar this time around.

MaxxQ1
18th Dec 2007, 16:44
LOL!

At least someone can spot sarcasm when they see it.

I agree about the avatar too. TBH though I think we will likely get quite a customerisable avatar this time around.

My thinking as well. It's almost de facto nowadays.

Loneranger
18th Dec 2007, 16:49
I'm not a fan of the whole sunglasses at night and trench coat look which for some reason everyone seems to think makes the character look "tough"


you want tough look at Wesker and Krauser from Resident Evil,those are two tough badasses.

Contradiction alert.

JC Denton:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20001206/spector_02.gif

Albert Wesker
http://www.geocities.com/eelbrecht/images/bio0_wesker.jpg

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but pretty much all Resident Evil games, or at least 0-3 are set at night. Albert Wesker doesn't appear in every one, but 1 is definitely set at night.

pKp
18th Dec 2007, 17:06
Now personally I've never met anyone who wears a trenchcoat,but the people I have seen wear trenchcoats either A. Paint their fingernails black,wear eyeliner,and talk about how depressing life is. or B. wear a trenchcoat so they can run around opening it up and exposing themselves to old ugly women.
Hey, I wear a trench, and I'm no goth :rasp:
Cyberpunk makes me think of the illustrations of the first eponymous RPG...that is, skin-tight leather clothes and mech-mods.
I second whoever said that there should be customizable clothing and appearence in DX3.

AgnosticJive
18th Dec 2007, 20:17
Contradiction alert.

JC Denton:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20001206/spector_02.gif

Albert Wesker
http://www.geocities.com/eelbrecht/images/bio0_wesker.jpg

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but pretty much all Resident Evil games, or at least 0-3 are set at night. Albert Wesker doesn't appear in every one, but 1 is definitely set at night.

It's not a contradiction at all,play code veronica and watch what happens when his glasses come off. B A D A S S. Plus wesker isn't a little errand boy running around in leather, He's the one calling the shots...only his errand boy is a chick who isn't above infiltrating places in a red dress. (I guess he mixes business with pleasure.)

and laputin man...have you read or seen any cyberpunk work other than blade runner? because that seems to be your go-to. So what if he wore a trenchcoat, even in the movie he was one of the few (if only,I can't remember everyones dress too well,it's been a few years since I've seen it) that was. Personally I find trenchcoats pointless,tacky,and ugly and sunglasses at night competely pointless. Now as far as the muslims comment, that's just ignorant since most people that wear "turbans" in the west are in fact sikhs, but hey, you wanna be a bigot, you go right ahead.
Stop trying to defend your leather clad fantasy boy, laputin.

and pKp I'm kind of afraid to ask this but...WHY do you wear a trenchcoat?
(and p.s. I believe I was the first person in this post to say customizable appearance.)

SageSavage
18th Dec 2007, 21:16
It's not a contradiction at all,play code veronica and watch what happens when his glasses come off. B A D A S S. Plus wesker isn't a little errand boy running around in leather, He's the one calling the shots...only his errand boy is a chick who isn't above infiltrating places in a red dress. (I guess he mixes business with pleasure.)

and laputin man...have you read or seen any cyberpunk work other than blade runner? because that seems to be your go-to. So what if he wore a trenchcoat, even in the movie he was one of the few (if only,I can't remember everyones dress too well,it's been a few years since I've seen it) that was. Personally I find trenchcoats pointless,tacky,and ugly and sunglasses at night competely pointless. Now as far as the muslims comment, that's just ignorant since most people that wear "turbans" in the west are in fact sikhs, but hey, you wanna be a bigot, you go right ahead.
Stop trying to defend your leather clad fantasy boy, laputin.

and pKp I'm kind of afraid to ask this but...WHY do you wear a trenchcoat?
(and p.s. I believe I was the first person in this post to say customizable appearance.)Give up already, pKp and Loneranger! It's ******* obvious that you are stupid - because you like JC?! And if that wasn't enough, you think sunglasses and trenchcoats are associated with some sort of cool... All those rockers and motorcycle-gangs like the Hells Angels are just emo-boys with leather fantasies, just like all those Trenchcoat-wearing (neo)noir detectives and private eyes, revenge seeking lone rangers in the westerns, Triad-bosses, Yakuza-killers or Cyberpunk-protagonists are. Not to mention all those fools wearing sunglasses like flying aces, drill seargeants, rockstars, Cyberpunk-protagonists or Hitmen... How stupid is that? :cool: <- note that this is the emoticon for the BBCode
:cool: LOL

"Hiding one's eyes has implications in face-to-face communication: It can hide weeping, being one of the signs of mourning, makes eye contact impossible which can be intimidating, like in the stereotype of the guardian of a chain gang as depicted in Cool Hand Luke, or can show detachment, which is considered cool in some circles."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunglasses#Uses


and p.s. I believe I was the first person in this post to say customizable appearance.Whoa...that's impressive!:cool: Could you also be the first to say "I quit working up people for not sharing my strange perception of what is cool and what is not." That would be awesome!

Fuzzman
18th Dec 2007, 21:20
I have a more logical explanation for the trenchcoat! JC wears it to conceal all of that stuff he's lugging around, like four assault weapons, a couple of pistols, a knife and crowbar, some gadgets, some food items, tons of ammo, that nifty nano-key ring, and the fire extinguisher (as unrealistic as it is to be packing all of that). The sunglasses are probably just a fashion statement; he was only 23 at the time, so it's not over the top to assume he is still influenced by the stereotypical "cool" images. And maybe Alex was influenced by the spiky hair image?:)

SageSavage
18th Dec 2007, 21:36
Yeah, of course they serve a purpose, too. All those anti-hero characters that have already been mentioned are rarely the kind of people who dress up for the sake of the look. The stereotype is a result of those guys being badass/cool. I've already said, that I believe that JC wears sunglasses to hide his augmented eyes.

AgnosticJive
19th Dec 2007, 02:08
to fox:
I never said I dislike JC,I dislike his style (or more precisely the style that was given to him.) As far as all of the things you listed in an attempt to try to make it seem like it makes sense...well rockers in leather jackets look like pansies. Now people that ride motorcycles actually have a use for leather! imagine that! and glorifying motorcycle gangs is just sad because they are the type of people that would kick your ass just for looking at them for no other reason then you're not one of them. Now aside from decker and CLASSIC noir references, I've seen no substantial proof of trenchcoats as the norm (and just for reference, JC wasn't a detective, he was a solider in an anti-terrorist terrorist organization.) Westerns...the man with no name? the definitive anti-hero lone ranger...let's see,lambskin vest check,cowboy hat check,serape poncho check,trenchcoat...must have missed it. Triad bosses,hell neither gordon nor max wore trenchcoats,yakuza is more renowned for their tattoos and variety of dress,not all running around in coats. Now for the sunglasses...flying aces wearing aviators during the day! WHAT A NOVEL CONCEPT! drill sargents wearing sunglasses during the day,sun blazing,troops in tow! I can't think of a single reason for that one! :scratch: rockstars...well,see unlike running around with blue eyes,running around with dilated eyes is a dead giveaway you're way too blasted (illegally most likely) and eye dilation has that nasty side effect of making lights unnaturally bright. Now as for the hitmen one...well,I've never really seen any hitmen,they're usually either unseen or blend in,wearing sunglasses in a setting where nobody else is,well,that's just a dead giveaway so they can't be too good at their jobs. Also? there's no need to hide your eyes when you've been created as a cold blooded killer. Looking someone in the eyes without a sign of pity or remorse as you're about to kill them is a tad more intimidating then someone hiding behind a shield...at least in some circles.
You seem to think pretty highly of gangs which is a bit disturbing considering the total lack of decency and morality they possess. Also no need to be antagonistic for me stating that the person arguing with me also agreed with what I think was the first thing I said.


How stupid is that?
Pretty stupid.

AgnosticJive
19th Dec 2007, 02:10
I have a more logical explanation for the trenchcoat! JC wears it to conceal all of that stuff he's lugging around, like four assault weapons, a couple of pistols, a knife and crowbar, some gadgets, some food items, tons of ammo, that nifty nano-key ring, and the fire extinguisher (as unrealistic as it is to be packing all of that). The sunglasses are probably just a fashion statement; he was only 23 at the time, so it's not over the top to assume he is still influenced by the stereotypical "cool" images. And maybe Alex was influenced by the spiky hair image?:)

He can fit a rocket launcher three quarters his size...AND a plasma rifle which is also three quarters his size in the inventory with room to spare. Something tells me walking around with two items equal to more than your entire mass won't exactly fit under a coat. or on you. I don't think it's to make it look realistic...

ricwhite
19th Dec 2007, 03:14
He can fit a rocket launcher three quarters his size...AND a plasma rifle which is also three quarters his size in the inventory with room to spare. Something tells me walking around with two items equal to more than your entire mass won't exactly fit under a coat. or on you. I don't think it's to make it look realistic...

It is common knowledge that most of the larger weapons in Deus Ex were developed using MRT (Mass Reduction Technology) which was developed almost at the exact same time as the augmentation technology in Deus Ex. In fact there are many other games I've played that also used MRT in one form or another. This technology allows rather large weapons to take up considerably less space when not in use. Most MR technology reduces mass by at least 70% -- some even up to 90% depending on the device. It would be easy to fit many of the larger weapons mentioned in this thread under JC's trench coat without any problem whatsoever.

Laputin Man
19th Dec 2007, 07:00
and laputin man...have you read or seen any cyberpunk work other than blade runner? because that seems to be your go-to. So what if he wore a trenchcoat, even in the movie he was one of the few (if only,I can't remember everyones dress too well,it's been a few years since I've seen it) that was. Personally I find trenchcoats pointless,tacky,and ugly and sunglasses at night competely pointless. Now as far as the muslims comment, that's just ignorant since most people that wear "turbans" in the west are in fact sikhs, but hey, you wanna be a bigot, you go right ahead.
Stop trying to defend your leather clad fantasy boy, laputin.





Blade Runner is my "go-to" because it is popular and has a main character that wears a trenchcoat. Not only that but there are things in the game that were inspired by that film. Or at least that is what mentioned in some reviews.

Oh, pardon me for not brushing up on my eastern religions and thier fashions. But getting that mixed up must obviously make me a biggot, and you irrationally thinking that some one walking down the street in a trench coat is about to "shoot up a school" is what? And speaking of fantasies... wasn't it you that brought up flashing and genitals?

And no you obviously don't just dislike these articles of clothing, you have some sort of deep seeded hatred towards them. Some one must have done something to you while wearing a trench coat at a very young age. Do you think if I handed you a dolly that you could point out where the bad man touched you?

AgnosticJive
19th Dec 2007, 07:28
And no you obviously don't just dislike these articles of clothing, you have some sort of deep seeded hatred towards them. Some one must have done something to you while wearing a trench coat at a very young age. Do you think if I handed you a dolly that you could point out where the bad man touched you?
lol,I hate you...I was thinking about making a comment like that earlier but I decided against it since it's just too gay.
But seriously, leather and big clothing isn't "tough" (getting back to the original point.) and just because some other works may or may not have used certain styles of clothing the point is there is no definitive cyberpunk style of dress. to sum it up best, cyberpunk is basically known for it's technology and settings (i.e. "city lights at night") The main issue is,I don't really see how they can work out customizable clothing in a game like this. I mean,think about it:
"Good work on your last mission JC, here's 1000 plus a 250 op bonus...why don't you go to the unatco clothing store and pick up some new clothes before you report to Agent Navarre?"

...doesn't seem like it would work. Also assuming this is a true dystopian future something tells me the only place you would be able to buy clothes would be the megacorporation McWalSoftMart (a subsidiary of News Corp.)...and I'd rather run around naked then wear any crap from anything that was even remotely a walmart.

Laputin Man
19th Dec 2007, 07:39
lol,I hate you...I was thinking about making a comment like that earlier but I decided against it since it's just too gay.
But seriously, leather and big clothing isn't "tough" (getting back to the original point.) and just because some other works may or may not have used certain styles of clothing the point is there is no definitive cyberpunk style of dress. to sum it up best, cyberpunk is basically known for it's technology and settings (i.e. "city lights at night") The main issue is,I don't really see how they can work out customizable clothing in a game like this. I mean,think about it:
"Good work on your last mission JC, here's 1000 plus a 250 op bonus...why don't you go to the unatco clothing store and pick up some new clothes before you report to Agent Navarre?"

...doesn't seem like it would work. Also assuming this is a true dystopian future something tells me the only place you would be able to buy clothes would be the megacorporation McWalSoftMart (a subsidiary of News Corp.)...and I'd rather run around naked then wear any crap from anything that was even remotely a walmart.

Ha, back at ya :) And no, instead you went with the leather clad fantasy boy comment... much less gay ;)

Ahhh, we can finally get back to talking like civilized people again? Great, and as for the different outfit idea that YOU had. I think that it is a great idea and it could work easily if you are just given the option of choosing different outfits from the very beggining of the game when you make the character. Being able to buy clothes through out the game ala GTA would be pretty lame, I agree.

And yes cyberpunk doesn't really have a "look" or at least not a definitive one. As long as they make different outfits some what dark... or at least some of them. They could have things like just body armor, trench coat, a suit and tie, etc. As long as it fits in with the game world.

SageSavage
19th Dec 2007, 12:35
Ahhh, we can finally get back to talking like civilized people again?Hopefully.

Dave W
19th Dec 2007, 14:23
That relates to the story and the main character of JC a lot in Deus Ex. Here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk. If you read on it goes in depth about the cyber punk genre and what that all entails. Deus Ex was a cyber punk themed game. It meets all the requirements.

Perhaps, although it's a stupid term, but it does not meet the visual requirements. Point to one level in Deus Ex that can be said to take inspiration from the Cyberpunk genre.

I assume you'll point to Hong Kong, in which case - no, because it's based on the real life location. Just like practically every other location in the game - with a few exceptions which are far more accurately described as Sci-Fi than Cyberpunk. Having a guy in a trenchcoat doesn't make up for the fact that entire chapters of the game show no similarity to Cyberpunk - for example New York and Paris.

SageSavage
19th Dec 2007, 14:32
*ignores Dave W's comment* :mad:

WhatsHisFace
19th Dec 2007, 19:03
Cyberpunk or not, JC Denton/Paul Denton/Walton Simons all had an iconic look for the series and that shouldn't be abandoned. The last thing we need is more generic, mix-in-with-the-crowd Military suits or Sci-Fi mumbo jumbo a'la Invisible War.

Visible Augs should return as well. There's nothing quite like seeing the circuit-boardish glow of blue on the surface of someone's skin.

Laputin Man
19th Dec 2007, 20:49
Perhaps, although it's a stupid term, but it does not meet the visual requirements. Point to one level in Deus Ex that can be said to take inspiration from the Cyberpunk genre.

I assume you'll point to Hong Kong, in which case - no, because it's based on the real life location. Just like practically every other location in the game - with a few exceptions which are far more accurately described as Sci-Fi than Cyberpunk. Having a guy in a trenchcoat doesn't make up for the fact that entire chapters of the game show no similarity to Cyberpunk - for example New York and Paris.


Taken from the link I gave, in cyberpunk stories:

"The settings are usually post-industrial dystopias"

and "They tend to be set in a near-future Earth, rather than the far future settings or galactic vistas found in novels like Isaac Asimov's Foundation or Frank Herbert's Dune."

It is set in a near future earth, therefore the locations don't look all that different from locations today.




Point to one level in Deus Ex that can be said to take inspiration from the Cyberpunk genre.

I assume you'll point to Hong Kong


..... Hong Kong. Really, it is what most reviewers refered to when they made comparisons to Blade Runner. But even if that isn't the case a cyberpunk setting is set in near future earth, usually in some sort of dystopian society. So according to that, it is in a cyberpunk setting.

Loneranger
19th Dec 2007, 20:59
Seriously guys, I know a great man once said "Man can argue for centuries and still not come to a conclusion" but it doesn't mean we have to do it lol. Everything here appears to be a matter of opinion, and if one person doesn't happen to agree with you then tough cookie no need to argue or "Debate" or whatever about it. Well apparently there is.
Anyways, it doesn't matter what we say in these forums, it's hardly like the devs. will listen. Why you ask? Because they'd be making the same mistake as they did with IW. They tried so hard to appeal to the tastes of the fans and make it simpler that everyone just ended up hating it (Well I don't, and obviously not everyone hated it, but it is, again, a matter of opinion).

Harakiribert
19th Dec 2007, 22:42
What should the character be like? Imo he should be older than JC and Alex, more like mid-30ish to have some life experience. And I don't want him to look like a random sunnyboy like Alex either. Yet I have no idea what his clothing style should be like.

StormFront
20th Dec 2007, 02:09
*ignores Dave W's comment* :mad:

Real mature. Fella you are either going to have to accept that people disagree with you (raises hand) or go find something else to do. Nothing good will comeof this kind of post...


Cyberpunk or not, JC Denton/Paul Denton/Walton Simons all had an iconic look for the series and that shouldn't be abandoned. The last thing we need is more generic, mix-in-with-the-crowd Military suits or Sci-Fi mumbo jumbo a'la Invisible War.

Visible Augs should return as well. There's nothing quite like seeing the circuit-boardish glow of blue on the surface of someone's skin.

Again, if this is set after IW (most likely IMHO) then augs will nto be visible. NTech augs would be completely non-visible on the skin. Also labelling something as mumbo-jumbo just makes me think you failed to understand it. IW presented a much more believable avatar than DX as far as I am concerned...

Stapledon
20th Dec 2007, 04:09
The only information we have about a time period for the game points to 2072, and it would make sense for this game to be a prequel because DX2's ending(s) were very much mutually exclusive, unlike DX, and writing a sequel to DX2 would be probably be very difficult to pull off without completely losing the cyberpunk atmosphere. Making a prequel would be a nice way around that, and the player could still have some form of augs because although JC was one of the first nano-augmented agents in 2052, other information from the developers (http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/april02/dxbible/dx2/) suggests that mechanical/cybernetic augmentations were relatively commonplace, and that people with Mechanical Augmentations were 'second class citizens'.

So.. there's that (sorry to go off topic).
Being able to choose your physique and appearance (and hell, why not gender) at the start would be awesome. Also having the ability to alter your appearance would be cool, but it should be done with augmentations and body armor, not trips to Bananna Republic. Your playing style should reflect your characters appearance (Anna Navarre v. Gunther Hermann).

In my opinion Alex D was too streamlined for a cyberpunk game. I think JC was definitely badass, but also a little on the bulky side. A look somewhere in between would be cool. Personally I think a more militarized version of the Max-Payne kind of look would be cool ("commando casual" if you will).


On the topic of trenchcoats, some kind of coat would be practical both for weapons concealment purposes and to protect against unpredictable weather patterns due to extreme climate change. Having the hero run around in another jumpsuit or a t-shirt would be fairly genre/mood breaking. Still, I agree that a massive black trenchcoat (different from the sleeker and smaller Rick Deckard/Sam Spade type) is also pretty out there in the Hot Topic/Matrix-extra-wannabe zone. Although JC was fairly baddass, I think we should let the trenchcoat stay as JC's thing and have a new original looking protagonist.

StormFront
20th Dec 2007, 04:23
This is gettign tedious and I am withdrawing from future nonesense discussions about this after this post.

Get over yourselves people. Seriously. You are all building youselves up to hate this game already. You are getting all wrapped up in what YOU think HAS to be there and I will guarantee you all that you are wrong (hold onto this post for when the anouncements are made).

This is NOT a remake of DX. You will not see people who look like JC, Gunther or Anna. You simply wont.

There is FAR more evidence in the trailer for this being a sequal than a prequal and beyond that there is more logic to it too. How many games are actually prequals? It's a desperately rare thing, especially on the PC platform. I cannot see anything besides what is obviously a FLASHBACK that would indicate anything of the events BEFORE DX 1/2. Nothing. Not a thing. The references to Emile also point to something beyond what we have seen in DX 1/2. All those flashbacks are simply trying to show you what led up to teh point of that fetus being created - that is just blatantly obvious from the way the video is shot.

All this talk of Noir and Cyberpunk and dress sense is bloody pointless too. For starters there is so little else to compare it to. Cyberpunk is mostly a written word genre. Most of the other stuff quoted such as Ghost in the Shell is simply too high tech for Cyberpunk (taking, as you should, Neuromancer as your basis). You are therefore comparing a game with its own style to your own imagings of how Cyberpunk should look: you will argue round and round for ever, guys...

Rgiht. Done.

/me washes hands of pointless arguing...

SageSavage
20th Dec 2007, 04:49
Real mature. Fella you are either going to have to accept that people disagree with you (raises hand) or go find something else to do. Nothing good will comeof this kind of post...
Dude, I already had this discussion with DaveW ( http://offtopicproductions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1190 ). I was about to argue with him and AgnosticJive again but this leads to nowhere other than getting me pissed off again - so I leave it to that. You should really take a look at your own posts before telling others how to behave...

Stapledon
20th Dec 2007, 05:04
Well that is certainly one way to interpret that trailer. I don't envy the writer that would have to integrate those three endings into one beginning though. Still, I guess it could be done.

Not to be too totally off-topic, but has anyone else noticed that people only wash their hands on a forum when they're angry? I do it because it's just good hygiene.

Does anyone else have any radically different ideas about what the protagonist should look like in the sequel? I find it hard to believe the whole discussion comes down to whether or not trenchcoats are 'gay'.

Loneranger
20th Dec 2007, 09:34
Well that is certainly one way to interpret that trailer. I don't envy the writer that would have to integrate those three endings into one beginning though. Still, I guess it could be done.

Not to be too totally off-topic, but has anyone else noticed that people only wash their hands on a forum when they're angry? I do it because it's just good hygiene.

Does anyone else have any radically different ideas about what the protagonist should look like in the sequel? I find it hard to believe the whole discussion comes down to whether or not trenchcoats are 'gay'.

I hate to say it, but posting something like this is just baiting for people to repeat the last few pages. I mean that's what the topic was meant to be about in the first place, not like you say, about weather trench coats are gay or not or what exactly cyber punk is. I am really sick of having to listen to that crap.

And by washing his hands I hope you realize he is trying to say that this argument is so full of crap that after having his hands inside it's ass for this long he is going to wash his hands and go home :P

gamer0004
20th Dec 2007, 11:55
I hope it is a prequel, but a sequel would be good too as long as they work everything out very well.
And (if it is a sequel), why integrate all of the four endings? DX:IW integrated all the endings of part I and that was really stupid. When I first played IW I was thinking "Which ending did the devs choose for this game" and I found out they used all THREE the endings I couldn't even believe it. In DX it is clear that when you blow A-51 up you can't integrate with Helios. But according to Iw you could... Yeah right.

Stapledon
20th Dec 2007, 19:08
Yeah, I guess you're right. Still it did give a nice 'neutral' beginning to the game.

and... yeah, you're right. Sorry. I'll reign in the snarkiness a bit.

Laputin Man
20th Dec 2007, 22:39
I thought that for the most part that the argument was done, I don't know what the rest of you are going on about? Agnostic and I basically agreed to disagree and then started to talk about choosing different styles of clothing or changing clothes for your avatar through out the game.

After that Dave stepped in and said he still didn't think that the setting was cyberpunk and I just told him why I thought that it could be considered as such.

Now, to get back on topic... a link that Agnostic and the rest of you may find interesting, if you haven't seen it already. It is to an interview with Warren Spector and has footage of the first game but it is early footage of the game before it was released and there are some things that are different in it. But one of the things in the video that was pointed out on the Eidos Montreal boards was that in this Alpha build the player was able to choose between different outfits. Not sure if it was something you could do at any point in the game or only at the beginning. But it is interesting all the same. Here is the link: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/121837.html

Also, does anyone here know where I could get ahold of some documents of any kind for the first game and what the dev team originally intended to put in it? I've heard many things such as... well this clothes changing thing shown in the alpha and also I heard one of the mods here mention a POW camp that was meant to be in the first game. If anyone could give me a link that would be awesome, thanks.

SageSavage
20th Dec 2007, 23:16
Not what you are looking for but maybe of use:
http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/april02/dxbible/dx1/

Laputin Man
20th Dec 2007, 23:27
Not what you are looking for but maybe of use:
http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/april02/dxbible/dx1/

Thanks Fox, I am going over it right now and it is a pretty good read. The original concept art for some of the levels and characters are pretty interesting as well.

Xcom
21st Dec 2007, 00:36
Spector's DX postmortem is also interesting:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20001206/spector_01.htm

CarloGervasi
20th Jul 2008, 16:26
Wow. If anyone has ever wondered why Ion Storm felt like they needed to dumb things down in Invisible War...well, this thread is your answer. This "StormFront" guy is just...I don't think I have the words for it. At least not the sugary nice ones that most forums require.


As for the main topic, I don't really care if he or she looks like JC Denton...all I care about is that they don't look like Alex D. Purple ranger outfit, mouth hanging open to compliment his dull, soulless expression and give the impression that perhaps his "biomods" have given him Down's syndrome, a hair-style you'd expect from a 13 year old kid who's in his "omg mega-XTREME!" phase, etc. The male Alex's design from Invisible War was one of the many, many areas where the developers dropped the ball. I can't imagine anyone being able to dispute that with any shred of credibility.

urban_queen41
21st Jul 2008, 04:36
I do not want another Denton clone, please. We know what they did with the last one. If it's not JC or Paul I don't want a Denton to be the protagonist- I'd much rather go for a completely new character.

Romeo
21st Jul 2008, 05:53
Denton's father's sister's aunt's nephew's uncle's brother's cousin's mother's roommate's friend's clone?

Oym
21st Jul 2008, 08:21
I already miss JC Denton and his brother :(

Ritter
23rd Jul 2008, 14:15
There're two other clones in Area 51 besides Alex Denton,one of Walton Simon and one of Bob Page.Don't you guys think it'd be cool to play as a Walton Simon clone?

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 14:23
Don't you guys think it'd be cool to play as a Walton Simon clone?

No.

JC or nothing.

Playing DX without JC is like playing Tomb Raider without Laura.

Ritter
23rd Jul 2008, 17:25
No.

JC or nothing.

Playing DX without JC is like playing Tomb Raider without Laura.

As much as I love JC,I can't see JC would fit anywhere in Deus ex 3,if it's a prequel,JC hasn't grown up yet,if it's a sequel,JC'd has been either killed or become a God-like entity.But I do hope to see JC in a flashback sequel though

Kevyne-Shandris
23rd Jul 2008, 17:56
As much as I love JC,I can't see JC would fit anywhere in Deus ex 3,if it's a prequel,JC hasn't grown up yet,if it's a sequel,JC'd has been either killed or become a God-like entity.But I do hope to see JC in a flashback sequel though

It couldn't be a prequel. Did you see that fetus? That was something that was biomechanical, a technology that wasn't even developed with Paul or JC (they were cloned, then biomodded). That fetus would be the next generation, making it a sequel.

And remember the teaser's byline...

"Soon one answer will override all others"

There's no "one" answer in a prequel -- as there were even a Paul and JC.

JC is the glue to the old, to hold together the new. DX isn't DX without him.

Ritter
24th Jul 2008, 01:26
It couldn't be a prequel. Did you see that fetus? That was something that was biomechanical, a technology that wasn't even developed with Paul or JC (they were cloned, then biomodded). That fetus would be the next generation, making it a sequel.

And remember the teaser's byline...

"Soon one answer will override all others"

There's no "one" answer in a prequel -- as there were even a Paul and JC.

JC is the glue to the old, to hold together the new. DX isn't DX without him.

You didn't finish reading my comment,did you?I said if Deus ex 3 is a sequel,if we take DX IW into canon,JC would have either been killed by Alex D or become a God-like entity

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 04:07
You didn't finish reading my comment,did you?I said if Deus ex 3 is a sequel,if we take DX IW into canon,JC would have either been killed by Alex D or become a God-like entity

I did, but put the brakes in the prequel idea, as the fetus is biomechanical at the start (not a clone that is fitted with nano whatever after their born). That's not possible in a 2025 timeline (that would just be the start of cloning).

CarloGervasi
24th Jul 2008, 04:58
I'm glad people are still irrationally ignoring the one hundred and one signs dropped in the trailer in favor of a "it's not a prequel!11!" delusion. Who says TV killed imagination.

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 05:23
I'm glad people are still irrationally ignoring the one hundred and one signs dropped in the trailer in favor of a "it's not a prequel!11!" delusion. Who says TV killed imagination.

Your biggest clue is the first narrative...

"Soon one answer will override all others"

There was no "one answer" even during the times of Paul and JC (if it was only that easy), and it couldn't have come before them as cloning was just starting, and Paul was the first nano biomachine AFTER he was born (he chose to be biomodded).

That fetus is BORN a hybrid.

Ritter
24th Jul 2008, 07:07
I've never said Deus ex 3 is going to be a prequel and never wished it'll be.I was just telling you that the possibility of having JC Denton as the protagonist again is next to impossible unless they consider DX IW was not canon

Red
24th Jul 2008, 10:57
Well... There's still an option of terrorists managing to destroy the global network and severing JCs link with it so he becomes ordinary augmented human again and starts his quest of discovering who was responsible for the attack.

A good excuse for JC not having any starting augmentations and skills to begin with, so we'd have to build him up again plus it'd be a sequel with JC as protagonist. 7th heaven for the fans :)

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 11:55
Well... There's still an option of terrorists managing to destroy the global network and severing JCs link with it so he becomes ordinary augmented human again and starts his quest of discovering who was responsible for the attack.

A good excuse for JC not having any starting augmentations and skills to begin with, so we'd have to build him up again plus it'd be a sequel with JC as protagonist. 7th heaven for the fans :)

What I'm curious about is how any real life stuff will be weaved into the story, more so than a "Omar". What terrorists? Who will they be based upon (as the devs have to work with some model to make them more believable -- Russian mafia; Islamic fundies; Zionists; South American rebels)?

The good needs to confront the evil, so what is considered "good" in such a dark conspiracy laden world?

JC has many demons of his own. Would be interesting how they flesh out, and how he handles them, along with his objectives. Along with Paul (his alter ego), would make interesting character development. Will the brothers eventually be at war with themselves, or either will help heal the other?

Just can't write JC and Paul off, they're too much DX.

Red
24th Jul 2008, 12:37
Well, it's up to PR team to manage the delivery of news about the game. So far they've come up with nothing but a teaser and the fact that the game is under 24-month development cycle. I don't like that either but we also have to consider the fact that the game is nowhere near completion/release so...

I believe that for starters it would be enough for us to know whether this game will be a prequel, sequel or something in the middle. Although it would be nice to know who the protagonist will be, I think that that information is a bit too spoilerish for now :)

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 13:15
I believe that for starters it would be enough for us to know whether this game will be a prequel, sequel or something in the middle. Although it would be nice to know who the protagonist will be, I think that that information is a bit too spoilerish for now :)

At this rate we won't even know where in the timeline DX3 will start until the last week. :cough: :cough:

Whenever it starts, a hybrid human isn't in the prequel era (technologically not feasible, or Paul and JC would've been the first prototypes, as that technology comes after optional body augmentation).

Starts with adding mechanical prosthetics > Biomods > Hybrid humans. Technology can't go from hybrid humans to Biomods to mechanical prosthetics, as that's de-evolution. Even Tong's Dark Age couldn't undo what knowledge that is known. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it's out for good.

CarloGervasi
24th Jul 2008, 16:06
Your biggest clue is the first narrative...

"Soon one answer will override all others"

There was no "one answer" even during the times of Paul and JC (if it was only that easy), and it couldn't have come before them as cloning was just starting, and Paul was the first nano biomachine AFTER he was born (he chose to be biomodded).

That fetus is BORN a hybrid.

Wow :rolleyes:

It's hard to respond to posts that are as nonsensical as this one. "The first narrative"? That doesn't make any sense. The "first narrative" in the context of a Deus Ex game was the sum total of the storyline in the first game. Your out-of-context quote isn't a "narrative".

Second, your nonsense about there not being any "one answer" during the times of Paul and JC is just mind boggling. Do you even know what the question was? The teaser was asking a philosophical question about what makes a human a human, what makes "us" "us", it has nothing to do with technology levels, what kind of augmentation everyone is using, whatever. Trying to take something like that and just totally out of left field twisting it into some kind of flimsy proof that it's not a prequel/concurrent to the first game is just not going to work.

Basically, your entire theory rests on a flimsy misinterpretation of a single line in a teaser, and on the idea that devoting 99% of the teaser's flashing images to mechanical augmentation and the discrimination that comes with it was just a whimsical decision that has absolutely no reflection on the time period of the game whatsoever. It's ridiculous.

As for the fetus argument, frankly, you have no idea what the fetus was, what was attached to it, if it was human, if it was just a random graphic made for the teaser never to be seen again, or what. Trying to tell everyone what the fetus can and can not be when you seem to know demonstrably less about it than others is ridiculous.

The fetus was born a "hybrid" huh? Hybrid between what? Do you even know? Was it a hybrid between nano and mechanical augmentation, something that is canonically pointless, and which would also point towards a time frame not more than a few days after the end of the first game? A hybrid between the irrational wishful thinking that it's not a prequel and the amazing ability to ignore the perfectly obvious starring you in the face in favor of self deception? Yeah.

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 16:25
The "first narrative" in the context of a Deus Ex game was the sum total of the storyline in the first game. Your out-of-context quote isn't a "narrative".

Are they graduating idiots out of schools these days?

That quote doesn't come from DX, but the DX3 teaser.

It's there for a purpose, to define the meaning of what the teaser is about. Otherwise it's nothing but a video.

You can't devolve technology, no matter how you want to pull a Deus ex machina out of it. The genie is out of the bottle, and it can never go back in. It can be stalled, but never destroyed.

That means IF the technology of hybrids was in practiced in 2025, the whole basis for DX itself would've been worthless, as having biomods with that technology would've been a waste of time and energy to exist (and listen, energy will define us much more in 50+ years, as we need to get to the next technological age -- and that's not happening unless we produce ***8x*** more energy than we can get out of ALL fuel resources now).

The DX world operates not in the next technological age, either. It has no benefits that would bring. It lives within the constructs of the near-future, that future is the world we live in.

What you're smoking is a Sci-Fi whatever type game, which isn't the DX world. It's cyberpunk, and that's not Star Trek. Get it through your head cyberpunk isn't Star Trek.

And it's a hybrid. Basic human anatomy would tell you it from day one. Go grab an anatomy book for a clue. :rolleyes:

CarloGervasi
24th Jul 2008, 16:53
Are they graduating idiots out of schools these days?

That quote doesn't come from DX, but the DX3 teaser.

It's there for a purpose, to define the meaning of what the teaser is about. Otherwise it's nothing but a video.

You can't devolve technology, no matter how you want to pull a Deus ex machina out of it. The genie is out of the bottle, and it can never go back in. It can be stalled, but never destroyed.

That means IF the technology of hybrids was in practiced in 2025, the whole basis for DX itself would've been worthless, as having biomods with that technology would've been a waste of time and energy to exist (and listen, energy will define us much more in 50+ years, as we need to get to the next technological age -- and that's not happening unless we produce ***8x*** more energy than we can get out of ALL fuel resources now).

The DX world operates not in the next technological age, either. It has no benefits that would bring. It lives within the constructs of the near-future, that future is the world we live in.

What you're smoking is a Sci-Fi whatever type game, which isn't the DX world. It's cyberpunk, and that's not Star Trek. Get it through your head cyberpunk isn't Star Trek.

And it's a hybrid. Basic human anatomy would tell you it from day one. Go grab an anatomy book for a clue. :rolleyes:
:lol:

Apparently your reading comprehension needs a little work. Is English not your first language?

I know the quote isn't from the game, I know it's from the teaser. I even referenced the fact that it was a quote from the teaser (hence the line "flimsy misinterpretation of a single line in a teaser", in reference to your flimsy misinterpretation of a single line in a teaser). Don't worry, it's ok. Plenty of people have trouble reading and understanding things on their first try. You needing me to explain these things to you is nothing to be ashamed of. Really.



No one is suggesting that we "de-volve" technology. That's just a straw man argument that you've pulled out of your ass, the same place you seem to have gotten a lot of things in your post. Your entire hypothesis that this game features "hybrids" (you still haven't clued anyone into what they're hybrids of, by the way. They can't be hybrids of mechanical and nano-augmentation, because that doesn't work, and they can't be human-machine hybrids, because that's what everyone in both games have been anyways) has come out of thin air, a product of your overactive imagination, and you're now defending this imagined idea as though it had some sort of factual basis. Here, let me help you out a bit with a little tip: it doesn't have any factual basis. None at all. It's no more factual or canonical than a piece of fan fiction. Your incessant ranting about how the game "cle3rly fe3tures hybr1ds man, really, look at it, that has to be a sequel!1!" is, like so many other things in your post, nonsense.


Also, I have to admit, I needed to do a quadruple-take on your post when you started talking about how Deus Ex isn't Star Trek, but rather cyber punk. Here I am, advocating a less Star Trek-ish experience, an experience more grounded in reality, and you are telling me about how the game shouldn't be or otherwise is not futuristic? I'm explaining to you why the game is not set even further into the future, while you present your delusions and imaginings in support of a sequel, a game that goes even further in the future, and you're telling me THAT? Seriously? Really? I don't even know what to say to someone who's that detached from reality. :confused:


So, basically, you get an A for effort I guess, good show and all, but you're a tad bit out of your league here. You have no idea what you're talking about (and believe me, it shows as soon as anyone questions your ideas), you apparently don't even know what I'm talking about (yet still you argue :confused: ), and you insist on introducing all of these weird, left-field, out of nowhere fanfiction-esque ideas as though they should be accepted fact. "ra ra ra HYBRID!...ra ra ra I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THAT FETUS IS, I UNDERSTAND FICTIONAL FUTURE TECHNOLOGY COMPLETELY!...ra ra ra", while entertaining to read, doesn't really have any basis in reality, and kind of makes you look a little...well, "troubled upstairs" lets say. I think that sounds polite. A little troubled upstairs.


Also, please, if you intend to respond again, please do a better job of reading and comprehending my post before your fingers touch the keyboard. That would be really cool of you. Would save me time and all that.

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 17:17
Apparently your reading comprehension needs a little work. Is English not your first language?

Apparently isn't your's.

Psst...to not waste time playing "ring around the rosie"...the de-evolution statement was an inference. This is how I know you can't follow the English language too well, as it flies right over your head.

Don't even try to insult what you don't or unwilling wanting to understand, then try to sound smart by violating rules of debate anyway, okay? It looks extremely stupid.

Take that projective identification and stuff it.

CarloGervasi
24th Jul 2008, 17:29
Apparently isn't your's.
I'll take this grammatical abortion to be a "no, english is not my first language, please excuse me because of this". Which is of benefit to you I guess, it provides an explanation for some otherwise unexplainable shortcomings on your part.


Psst...to not waste time playing "ring around the rosie"...the de-evolution statement was an inference. This is how I know you can't follow the English language too well, as it flies right over your head.

Don't even try to insult what you don't or unwilling wanting to understand, then try to sound smart by violating rules of debate anyway, okay? It looks extremely stupid.

Take that projective identification and stuff it.

Haha, an inference from what? See, I really don't think you've read any of my posts. I think something I said has set you off, made you angry, and now you're frothing at the mouth for a chance to argue back, and you're so quick to reply and "get me" that you aren't bothering to actually read what I've said. Because no, saying that I wish to devolve the technology in Deus Ex could not possibly be an inference, at least not if we are using the real definition of the word and not one that you've created for yourself and just started applying randomly in everyday conversation. The only way you could possibly think that I wish to devolve the technology would be if you thought that I think DE3 is a sequel but will still feature mech augs, which of course isn't my position and is something that you could only believe if you hadn't read a single thing that I've been saying. So you either don't know what an "inference" is, or you haven't even been reading what you've been arguing against, instead opting to take a blind stab in the dark and hope you get it right (you didn't :( ).

Here, let me clear some things up for you, maybe that'll help you comprehend everything a little better.

1) I believe that Deus Ex 3 is a prequel, or a game that runs concurrent to the timeline of the first game. It is not a sequel, for a multitude of reasons that have already been covered.

2) A devolution of technology indicates that we started at point A, got all the way up to point B, but then went back to point A for indeterminate reasons.

3) Here's the part where you slap your forehead, yell "d'oh!", and wonder why someone needed to explain this to you. Are you ready? In my scenario, we never reached "point B" in the first place. We never reached Invisible War's level of technology, where nanotech augmentation (or "biomods" as they called it) is the norm. We haven't gotten there yet. It's some indeterminate time from 2020-2053, not the mid 2070s. Ergo, the high presence of mechanical augmentation is in fact not a devolution or technological backslide, because it's the highest point that has yet been achieved. In your way of thinking, me driving my car to work would be a technological devolution because I didn't take the matter teleporter...even though it doesn't yet it exist. Do you see what I'm saying? Because it's ok if you don't, I have MS Paint, I can probably whip up a diagram or something for you if you think that'll help.


And that is why you always read before you reply kids. This whole thing could have been avoided if you had just read and comprehended what I was saying to you before you replied, instead of flying off the handle and devoting an entire post to some bizzare rant about who knows what.

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 17:42
Haha, an inference from what? See, I really don't think you've read any of my posts.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

From Merriam-Webster (you do know that's a dictionary, right?)...


Main Entry: in·fer·ence
Pronunciation: \ˈin-f(ə-)rən(t)s, -fərn(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 1594
1: the act or process of inferring: as a: the act of passing from one proposition, statement, or judgment considered as true to another whose truth is believed to follow from that of the former b: the act of passing from statistical sample data to generalizations (as of the value of population parameters) usually with calculated degrees of certainty
2: something that is inferred; especially : a proposition arrived at by inference
3: the premises and conclusion of a process of inferring

Put a fork in it, Carlos, truly. It's over.

CarloGervasi
24th Jul 2008, 17:45
...Ok, so you're still not reading my posts I guess? Alright, maybe they're too long to hold your attention. Lets try to cut this down to a few sentences, maybe that'll help you out.

The only way you can "infer" something is if you have an amount of evidence for it in the first place. You did not. I gave no indication, at any point, that I wished to see a technological backslide in Deus Ex. You simply invented that as a straw man argument, and are clinging to it still, the reasons for it being a terrible debate tactic evading your grasp like a fine mist.

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 17:57
...Ok, so you're still not reading my posts I guess? Alright, maybe they're too long to hold your attention. Lets try to cut this down to a few sentences, maybe that'll help you out.

Content holds my attention, Carlos. I tire of alt.flame wannabes quick (boring as hell [BTW, takes but a skim to get to A to Z and deduce the claptrap to a few words]). Anyone who spends more time to insult, has little time for content anyway, as they're too bothered to waste brain cells on ad hominens for points for the peanut gallery, instead.

Want to debate the points? Debate them. If you want a fight with multiple personalities, get a shrink. :lol:

CarloGervasi
24th Jul 2008, 18:04
Maybe we're looking at two entirely different threads, with entirely different sets of posts? That's the only explanation I can think of for all these non sequiturs you insist on using.

For one, I'm not flaming you, I'm really just trying to help you out and get you to understand something that you should have understood on your own. Really, the only time I even approached "flaming" was when you insisted on inserting your fan fiction ideas into the discussion as though they were observable fact, and even then I think I was pretty restrained, all things considered.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "sebate" my points. According to this (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Sebate), I can only assume that you want me to...salt them? :confused:

I guess you meant debate (which I would have known from the start were I not talking to a guy that probably still thinks I advocate a Star Trek Deus Ex), in which case, I'd be happy to do that with you, provided you're capable of reading my posts this time instead of making me waste time trying to correct you over and over until you eventually try to save face and quietly exit the argument. Sound like a deal?

EDIT: Ah, you edited your post, rendering my awesome line about salt totally obsolete :(

René
24th Jul 2008, 18:31
Can we get back on topic please? This thread should be about the main protagonist's look.

Kevyne-Shandris
24th Jul 2008, 19:02
Back on topic...phew!


Because most other gamers are 13 years old...

Sad but true.

The sunglasses/trenchcoat look is still cool to that part of the population, thus the ridicule of Alex D.

So sad...

Never thought DX would be a hit for 13 year-olds per se. It's too "deep" of a game.

The shades and trenchcoat can be looked at not only as a knockoff from the Matrix, but of that cowboy in his duster. That movie of late (can't for the life of me remember the name, with Will Smith) of the cyberpunk genre showed it just like that. Never watched the Matrix, so never equated JC with whatever kid fantasy. I saw his costume as what was needed in that environment (his augmented eyes needing to be hidden from non-augmented people); to his coat was his backpack (how else would he packed a GEP gun as he wasn't carrying anything but his armor, boots, armor and shades??!!). Besides, such a bleak environment gives me the chills.

JC just looks kewl as a whole package, even how dated DX is today (and it's one of the few games I don't play a dark haired protagonist -- as he looks so much like Count Dracula -- worst in DX:IW). He looked like "business" (a professional killer even), and his costume was his brand -- and must've been the uniform, as Paul wore the same.

If the look is changed in DX3, I'll just have to find a way to return JC to his old uniform (and if he's not in the game FORCE the protagonist to be JC). That's how strongly I identify JC with the DX universe and his appearance.