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View Full Version : Original Deus Ex was the Best PC Game Ever Made



ricwhite
10th Dec 2007, 04:37
It takes a lot of guts to make a sequel to the greatest PC game in history. Expectations will be too high and the end result will be a disappointment. There is no way to duplicate the "magic" of the original for several reasons.

1) Original Deus Ex wove many layers of characterization and story. From what I can tell from playing hundreds of PC games over the last 10 years, the talent to do that now is almost non-existent. Most of the recent games focus on visuals, sound and gameplay and not on characterization and story. In other words, the artistic nature of the story and characters of the original are a lost art.

2) The amount of detail, information, layered-story, and open-endedness exhibited in the original is totally cost prohibitive. There is no way that will ever be seen again. In the original, there was so much written material that the player could spend hours on end just reading newspaper clippings, book entries, notes and computer terminals. And the astonishing thing was that the content was very applicable and informative to the many themes of the game. It was not superficial. To inter-weave this same level of information in a new game is not possible today.

3) The conspiratorial themes in the original offered real world connections which made the happenings very applicable, relevant and meaningful. There have been other games with conspiracies, but not in the way Deus Ex succeeded. This is also a lost art.

4) The artistic nature of the original in terms of visuals and music made each level of the game memorable and meaningful. This "atmosphere" that Deus Ex was able to achieve was never again attained in any other PC game since. I think this goes back to the level of talent involved with the original development. There is a lot of talent in video game design today, but it is a different kind -- focusing on graphics, sound and gameplay -- not story, plot, atmosphere and characterization.

5) There are open-ended games developed today (Crysis to some degree, for example). However, the level of customization and open-endedness of Deus Ex is totally cost prohibitive today. Most "open-ended" games today must be rather short in duration. (Usually under 12 hours of gameplay). Gone are the days and lengthy involved, open-ended games.

My fear is that DX3 will take the path that most PC games have taken recently.

First the good:

The graphics, no doubt, will be good. The sound will be great.

The bad:

The game will be butchered into small chunks and the open-endedness will be severely limited.

The game will be around 10-12 hours in length.

Because of the short duration of the game, there will be no time for in-depth story development, plotting, atmosphere development, or characterization.

The conspiratorial themes will be meaningless and forced. Players will not care about the characters.

Because of costs, there will be little or no supplemental materials in terms of clippings, notes, book entries, terminals. Those that are included will appear disjointed and meaningless to the themes which will appear silly and under-developed.

--------

I'm really somewhat surprised the Eidos is taking on this project knowing there is no way it could do the original game any justice.

Hoping I'm wrong . . .

StormFront
10th Dec 2007, 06:06
Sorry to reduce a perfectly good post to just this, but this notion that Deus Ex was unreachable of zenith of gaming that can never be touched again is starting to wick me off.

I like Deus Ex a hell of a lot: it is easily in my top 3 games of all time. However, it is FAR from without flaws. Most of what DX tried to do is simply a case of merging some of the more common RPG elements (character development(ish), very limited freedom of choice, non-linear (within a given level) gameplay) with an FPS viewpoint. Games such as Thief, the Elder Scrolls series and System Shock have also achieved this: it is not not some insurmountable task.

On top of that DW already has a sequal which, as I've discussed elsewhere, if it had not been built in the worlds worst engine, would have ben a perfectly good game.

As far as I can see there are only 3 things needed to make DX3 work and only 2 of them are within the control of the dev team:
1 - The engine used must be capable of conveying the grandeur and scale of the DX universe in order for us to feel immersed (and we are off to a WAY better start here already)
2 -The plot, characterisation and exposition of both must be well exectuted (far from difficult and for Eidos Montreal this is a game they cannot afford to screw up, fan opinion aside)
3 - DX fans need to get their heads out of their arses and actually be prepared for the fact that DX3 will, in most ways, be nothing like DX1. 9 years will have passed and the game will have moved on: the "fans" (read: narrow mind zealots) need to deal.


Unfortunately there is no way number 3 wil happen. Even if Montreal produce the greatest game ever made, the whinning litle girls will still pour here in droves crying their hearts out that DX3 is not "DX1 in a posh frock, WAH!"

gamer0004
10th Dec 2007, 16:22
I don't want another DX1 either. DX3 must be more advanced, with better graphics and AI. Aiming with right-mouse button to bring the gun to your face is a really good idea and it would be great if it would be implemented in the game. right-moue button aiming should be way more accurate, as that is more realistic. Shooting without bringing the gun up to your face is like shooting from the hip, great if you have to react really fast with an enemy a few feet away, but otherwise useless. While aiming you should walk slower but be more accurate.

However, I do not agree with your statement that "if DX:IW had not been built in the worlds worst engine, would have ben a perfectly good game.".
If the levels wouldn't have been resized to XBOX bite-size chunks it would've been a good game.
I saw some screens a few days ago, before the game was resized (which happend later on in the process). It looked great. Open, realistic maps.
Don't know where I saw them unfortunately.
And it was stupid that you couldn't put your gun away with a press on a button.

StormFront
10th Dec 2007, 16:45
<snip>
However, I do not agree with your statement that "if DX:IW had not been built in the worlds worst engine, would have ben a perfectly good game.".
If the levels wouldn't have been resized to XBOX bite-size chunks it would've been a good game.<snip>

What? You don't agree but you do agree? The reason the levels were resized is becasue a) the xbox sucks and b) the engine simply wasn't capable. The performance was terrible in that game on launch and that was AFTER the asset shrink. Imagine how bad it would have been before.

And yes the early shots looked so much better. I open them up occaisionally just to remind myself of how retarded their engine programmer was....

gamer0004
10th Dec 2007, 17:03
They didn't resize it because of performance problems.

StormFront
10th Dec 2007, 17:05
They didn't resize it because of performance problems.

Well, that's not what I've heard <shrug> No one can say for definite now bar the programmers and hopefully they are... well.. dead...:D

ricwhite
11th Dec 2007, 02:12
this notion that Deus Ex was unreachable of zenith of gaming that can never be touched again is starting to wick me off.

But it's true. I have never played a game that has reached the level that Deus Ex achieved. In fact, I would say that Deus Ex ruined all other PC games for me. I played game after game trying to find one that would give me the same "rush" as Deus Ex, but I'm still searching. I had high hopes for Bioshock, but that fell short.

To me Deus Ex is "unreachable" because I have yet to find a game that reaches to that level.

pKp
11th Dec 2007, 23:02
This is not a very sane attitude. I mean, there's no such thing as a perfect game. DX was great, but not perfect.

I must confess, however, that I have yet to encounter a game wich has at the same time :

1)A great story, deep, and not too black-or-white (This was achieved in Fahrenheit - would be The Indigo Prophecy for you Yankees - or in Max Payne, for instance)
2)Efficient, intuitive, innovative game mechanisms (Halo had the two first in large quantities, but the story was non-existent, and it wasn't really innovative. Still one of my favourite FPS's, though)
3)Gorgeous graphics (this can be found in a lot of games lately, but I'm thinking Crysis. When I think that in about five years, every game will have this kind of looks...:eek: )

If you know one, please let me know. DX isn't the perfect game, but it sure is one of a kind.

CarloGervasi
11th Dec 2007, 23:16
I loved Deus Ex to death, but there are actually a few things I hope they take from Invisible War's book instead, primarily the inventory system. I haven't met too many people that would rather play Tetris with their plasma cannon and dragon tooth sword, trying to make everything fit, instead of just having a set number of slots and getting back to the fun stuff. A lot of people aren't going to be happy unless this is just a high def remake of Deus Ex, but for me, I'll be pretty happy if they just keep the stuff that made Deus Ex really awesome, and cut out some of the stuff that didn't work too well. I'll be happy to see a few changes here and there.

pKp
11th Dec 2007, 23:22
Of course ! I mean, a HD remake of DX...well, I would actually buy it. But there is the potential to do so much better ! :D

Also, I kinda liked this "tetris-like" inventary system, even if it wasn't realistic at all (Heya, I can walk around with a FLAME THROWER AND AN ASSAULT RIFLE AND A AUTOMATIC SHOTGUN inside my coat, and I'm not even clicking when I walk !). But a Fear-like system (you're limited to three weapons) would be fun as well.

Oh, and about fear...Don't. Use. Bullet-time. This has been done to death since Max Payne, and it's just NOT FUNNY anymore.

JoeGreensKiller
11th Dec 2007, 23:33
I bought a PS2 because my comp at the time crapped out, and guess what game, and only game I bought with the PS2??? lol, and I still play it, BUT id like to see something different in 3. I dont want another DX1 cause iv already played it more times then any sane man should. Im sure the EIDOS team know what made I.W a bad game, and of course they know what made DX a great game. In a nut shell, and comeing from one of the biggest DX fans out there, id like to see something different. Who knows, it may very well kick the ass off of DX 1.

WhatsHisFace
12th Dec 2007, 01:41
I think the biggest problem with Deus Ex 1 is that if you were playing as a guy who sneaks around a whole lot and doesn't have much skills in heavy weaponry, you're pretty screwed when you're forced into fighting Gunther Herman, Anna Navarre and Walton Simons.

Sure, there's the "kill phrase" methods for the two UNATCO agents, and you can just run from Walton Simons, but there was so much running away/reloading involved if you didn't have the easy way out. No way of evading the situation altogether.

Example: The only way to get Gunther's killphrase is if you tell Jamie to stay in UNATCO as a spy. However, my stealth character had to trap Gunther in a room with a ladder in order to make it out of the church alive. I didn't have a rocket launcher handy. Before I took advantage of simple AI, I thought I'd have to start over.

Even so, it's only a small complaint. I wouldn't mind if they forced you into confrontation in Deus Ex 3 if it's for the sake of story.

Laputin Man
12th Dec 2007, 01:53
"However, I do not agree with your statement that "if DX:IW had not been built in the worlds worst engine, would have ben a perfectly good game.".
"


There was a lot more than level size wrong with that game. A lot of the gameplay decisions made, in my opinion detracted from the game. Things like universal ammo, the cutting of all RPG elements, poor character development, and even the changing of some items.


What I would mostly like to see is that they take DX 1 as a base to build upon. Take the RPG elements and build and improve on them, don't cut them. Improve the AI alot. Take how the first game had several ways of gaining entrance into a place with different styles of play and improve upon that. Improve the stealth system used in the game. Improve the hacking system maybe. But whatever you do please try and keep that Deus Ex feel from the first game.

I don't expect a story like the one form the first game, I do hope for one that has many twists and turns in its plot and that will surprise the player. They tried that in IW but nothing in that games story caught me off gaurd, they dropped too many hints at what was coming to surprise me at all.

I think what was done before was they took a great FPS/RPG hybrid and nearly turned it into a plain old FPS in IW. Please take this franchise back to it's hybrid roots.

StormFront
13th Dec 2007, 12:07
"However, I do not agree with your statement that "if DX:IW had not been built in the worlds worst engine, would have ben a perfectly good game.".
"


There was a lot more than level size wrong with that game. A lot of the gameplay decisions made, in my opinion detracted from the game. Things like universal ammo, the cutting of all RPG elements, poor character development, and even the changing of some items.

Universal ammo was obvioulsy ridiculous but "cutting RPG elements? What? I assume you mean that they dropped the skill system?
Let's be clear here. DX is not an RPG in anyway. It really isn't. An RPG (in the way we all mean it, not what it actually means) is a game were you are allowed to create a unique character that fits your whims and fancies and then take it out into a world.
In DX you play JC. PERIOD. There is no RPG. RPG is NOT being allowed to moralise or make decisions. Big difference.

As for poor character development, that is just tosh. JC does not develop. At all. Ever. He is the husky voiced hard man, start to end. He never changes, never emotes, never does anything to intimate that he is being swayed by the events around him.
Alex D on the other hand does. The decisions you make, who you talk to, who you work for, all alter the way Alex looks at the world and how he reacts. Point is, IW has character development, DX does not


What I would mostly like to see is that they take DX 1 as a base to build upon. Take the RPG elements and build and improve on them, don't cut them. Improve the AI alot. Take how the first game had several ways of gaining entrance into a place with different styles of play and improve upon that. Improve the stealth system used in the game. Improve the hacking system maybe. But whatever you do please try and keep that Deus Ex feel from the first game.

Level size issues aside I am now more and more convinced that IW has in fact got MORE options on how you tackle a given situation. DX was in most cases very limited as you spent 90% of your time in hostile environments where your options tended to come down to have a fight or sneak about. Because IW keeps you in more civil settings you are free to go about your business as you see fit, not just deciding when to draw your gun.


I don't expect a story like the one form the first game, I do hope for one that has many twists and turns in its plot and that will surprise the player. They tried that in IW but nothing in that games story caught me off gaurd, they dropped too many hints at what was coming to surprise me at all.

Why not? Again the IW story is actually more in depth than DX's. While DX goes all around the houses showing you the sights essentially all that happens is you follow a string of clues to Bob Page. The plot is really just: Bob Page wants to be god... How is that amazing and in depth?

IW on the other hand has a far more open structure. Something has happened (JC has returned) and everyone is locked in a secretive power race to claim the prize. Each faction has its own reasons and needs for enlisting your help and each faction has its own secrets and skeletons. What you find out is far more useful and is unearthed in a far less "led by the nose" way.


I think what was done before was they took a great FPS/RPG hybrid and nearly turned it into a plain old FPS in IW. Please take this franchise back to it's hybrid roots.

There is no backing for that statement at all. Of all the things IW is or can be accused of being, a vanilla FPS is most certainly notone of them

gamer0004
13th Dec 2007, 12:54
DX IS an RPG. It's got skills, you can choose how you look (not many options though), you can decide what kind of person you are (inhuman or friendly) etc.
Not, there are no stats saying:
Class: Thief/Soldier etc.
Famy: 20
Infamy: 2
But that doesn't mean it's not an RPG. ROLEPLAYING game. And you roleplay in DX.

StormFront
13th Dec 2007, 12:59
DX IS an RPG. It's got skills, you can choose how you look (not many options though), you can decide what kind of person you are (inhuman or friendly) etc.
Not, there are no stats saying:
Class: Thief/Soldier etc.
Famy: 20
Infamy: 2
But that doesn't mean it's not an RPG. ROLEPLAYING game. And you roleplay in DX.

Yes but you play a predefined role. You may as well call Far Cry a roleplay on that measure as you playthe role of Jack Carver.

A roleplay is something like KOTOR or Morrowind not DX

Laputin Man
13th Dec 2007, 15:05
Yes but you play a predefined role. You may as well call Far Cry a roleplay on that measure as you playthe role of Jack Carver.

A roleplay is something like KOTOR or Morrowind not DX

But in both games, you start out with a character you name but they are later forced into predifined roles... in KOTOR you turn out to be Revan and in Morrowind you turn out to be the Nerevarine(sp?) or deity. In Deus Ex you got to give JC a name at the beginning and I believe they would use it in emails that he received. He was continuously called JC in all of the cut scenes for practical reasons... because you can't have a voice actor recite every possible name that the player may come up with, it just isn't feasible.


And yes, the character JC did evolve and change through out the game simply for the fact that he got better at certain tasks... just like the characters that you mentioned in both RPG's KOTOR and Morrowind. Having a skill and stat system is used to simulate a characters growth in experience and knowledge in the game world and to seperate the character from the player in the way that the actual character has gotten better at a task and is not controlled by the players twitch skill or gaming prowess. Deus Ex combined the twitch gaming of an FPS by making combat real time and also by making things easier by the character gaining experience in certain tasks.

Really, what made those 2 games an RPG and Deus Ex not?

Laputin Man
13th Dec 2007, 17:43
Also...


Universal ammo was obvioulsy ridiculous but "cutting RPG elements? What? I assume you mean that they dropped the skill system?
Let's be clear here. DX is not an RPG in anyway. It really isn't. An RPG (in the way we all mean it, not what it actually means) is a game were you are allowed to create a unique character that fits your whims and fancies and then take it out into a world.
In DX you play JC. PERIOD. There is no RPG. RPG is NOT being allowed to moralise or make decisions. Big difference.



Please explain to me how in Deus Ex you do not make a character that fits your whims and fancies? You can at the beginning determine JC's appearance some what and even give him a name. Also, you can give him some points in certain skills making him better at certain tasks and also fitting your "whims and fancies"



As for poor character development, that is just tosh. JC does not develop. At all. Ever. He is the husky voiced hard man, start to end. He never changes, never emotes, never does anything to intimate that he is being swayed by the events around him.
Alex D on the other hand does. The decisions you make, who you talk to, who you work for, all alter the way Alex looks at the world and how he reacts. Point is, IW has character development, DX does not


Well pish posh. So to get this straight, JC would have had to lose weight and speak softly in order for you to consider him developing through out the game in some way? How was he not swayed by events around him? He was constantly swayed by events around him, that is how he kept leaping from one faction to the next. The first example would be his brother Paul's influence on him leaving Unatco. All Alex had was several people to kind of choose to work for, no one really swaying him and every one welcoming him back in with open arms whether or not he had just screwed them over in the previous mission. Also, I never grew attached to any of the characters in IW. In DX I grew attached to the people at Unatco like Gunther, Anna, Paul, and Manderly. I felt uneasy around Simmons. In IW I felt no such attachment to any of the characters at all. I never felt like I really had any allies through out the game.

A breakdown of Gunther... at first he resented you and showed signs of jealousy because you were the new guy and he was getting brushed aside. He reluctantly accepted you and depending on how you played might have even respected you. He aslo had a thing for Anna.

Now as for characters from IW... I can't even really remember their names let alone any kind of personality or characteristics that made them stand out in any way.



Level size issues aside I am now more and more convinced that IW has in fact got MORE options on how you tackle a given situation. DX was in most cases very limited as you spent 90% of your time in hostile environments where your options tended to come down to have a fight or sneak about. Because IW keeps you in more civil settings you are free to go about your business as you see fit, not just deciding when to draw your gun.


So IW gave you more options because you could walk around a central neutral HUB and accept missions. :rolleyes: In what way did that really change things? Oh I know, you then had less consequnces for your actions because you could just walk up to any body all willy nilly after you just did a mission for the other guy and chat them up.



Why not? Again the IW story is actually more in depth than DX's. While DX goes all around the houses showing you the sights essentially all that happens is you follow a string of clues to Bob Page. The plot is really just: Bob Page wants to be god... How is that amazing and in depth?

IW on the other hand has a far more open structure. Something has happened (JC has returned) and everyone is locked in a secretive power race to claim the prize. Each faction has its own reasons and needs for enlisting your help and each faction has its own secrets and skeletons. What you find out is far more useful and is unearthed in a far less "led by the nose" way.


Look what I can do...

"Why not? Again the DX story is actually more in depth than IW's. While IW goes all around the houses showing you the sights essentially all that happens is you follow a string of clues to Antartica. The plot is really just: JC wants to be god... How is that amazing and in depth?"

I just summed up the plot of IW just as you did the plot to DX.

How did IW have a more open structure by just JC returning? In DX there was a plague affecting all the poor across the world. Nano augmented agents were new and later went rogue because as it turns out Unatco was really a front for the MJ-12... that is a hell of a skeleton in the closet. What skeletons were there in IW? That the Church was really the Illuminatti? Your class mates from the beginning never took any surprising turns by siding with other factions because they constanly gave huge hints about these things happening through out the entire game. I never cared about any of the supporting cast except for maybe Paul and JC and that was only because they were from the first game. I never really felt like I had any allies in the entire game because the factions were so wish washy. At the very end even if you were constantly screwing over a faction the entire time... they will tell you... hey go here and kill this guy and were cool. Not only that but in the few show downs that there were in the game I never had any feeling of dread or sadness when facing an opponent except for JC or Paul. When I faced that gril who sided with the Church... I just walked over her. She is augmented like I was and wasn't even a challenge. Not only that but there was nothing in her personality to lead me to even believe that she would be any sort of threat. I remember that in DX Simmons kind of talked down to you... like he knew he could destroy you easily, and when the time came he was a challenging opponent.



There is no backing for that statement at all. Of all the things IW is or can be accused of being, a vanilla FPS is most certainly not one of them


I didn't say it was nearly a vanilla FPS, but I did say that they stripped it nearly of all RPG elements barring conversation trees and you could maybe also say the aug system. With a story more compelling that that of most FPS games.

Also, I swear you just like to disagree just for the sake of arguing. In other posts you proclaim your distaste for IW and how you dreaded a third installment because of the way IW turned out and now you defend it at every possible turn? Are there 2 people using your account or what?

Smoke Screen
15th Dec 2007, 21:20
...but this notion that Deus Ex was unreachable of zenith of gaming that can never be touched again is starting to wick me off.

I like Deus Ex a hell of a lot: it is easily in my top 3 games of all time. However, it is FAR from without flaws. Most of what DX tried to do is simply a case of merging some of the more common RPG elements (character development(ish), very limited freedom of choice, non-linear (within a given level) gameplay) with an FPS viewpoint. Games such as Thief, the Elder Scrolls series and System Shock have also achieved this: it is not not some insurmountable task.


Exactly my opinion. For DX3 i dont wish a perfect DX copy in a State-of-the-Art clothing. I want a game that goes beyond the level that
was achieved with DX.
Its now late 2007 and i guess modern technology and a highly talented and
skilled team can achieve that im sure. However,in the back of my mind there
are doubts,cause ive experienced a couple very disappointing sequels of
"classics" in the last years. But time will tell,and hope dies last.

DOitlikeDEUSEX1
15th Dec 2007, 23:47
But it's true. I have never played a game that has reached the level that Deus Ex achieved. In fact, I would say that Deus Ex ruined all other PC games for me. I played game after game trying to find one that would give me the same "rush" as Deus Ex, but I'm still searching. I had high hopes for Bioshock, but that fell short.

To me Deus Ex is "unreachable" because I have yet to find a game that reaches to that level.


Same here...all other games I have played pale in comparison to Deus Ex for the escape it gave me from daily life. It was the first pc game I ever played and that was good and bad at the same time. :mad2:

StormFront
16th Dec 2007, 09:28
Also, I swear you just like to disagree just for the sake of arguing. In other posts you proclaim your distaste for IW and how you dreaded a third installment because of the way IW turned out and now you defend it at every possible turn? Are there 2 people using your account or what?

Sometimes this is true. Stimulating people to actually get them to express themselves is a valid tactic in debate. You however, need to pay closer attention to the order of my posts. I made it very clear when this project was anounced that I dreaded the idea, however in THIS (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=73831) post I tried to explain my new found level of reasoning toward games, particularly IW. Sorry of that confused you but I thought it was pretty clear.


But it's true. I have never played a game that has reached the level that Deus Ex achieved. In fact, I would say that Deus Ex ruined all other PC games for me. I played game after game trying to find one that would give me the same "rush" as Deus Ex, but I'm still searching. I had high hopes for Bioshock, but that fell short.

To me Deus Ex is "unreachable" because I have yet to find a game that reaches to that level.


Same here...all other games I have played pale in comparison to Deus Ex for the escape it gave me from daily life. It was the first pc game I ever played and that was good and bad at the same time. :mad2:

@DOitlikeDEUSEX1 & ricwhite - You need to play more games. That's your answer. I play more than anyone I know (hell I own more games than most people have ever played) and I can tell you without hesitation that Deus Ex is a good game, but it is far from being the best.

SageSavage
16th Dec 2007, 09:49
I can tell you without hesitation that Deus Ex is a good game, but it is far from being the best.
That's a matter of opinion. I've played loads of games and close to every game that falls in the milestone category. For me DX1 is (together with some other games) one the best games of all times and probably the latest one that gave me perfect satisfaction (for longer than just the moment). There are newer games that came close but no other game kept me hooked like DX ever since. It's also the only community (around a game) I have ever participated in.

ricwhite
16th Dec 2007, 17:44
@DOitlikeDEUSEX1 & ricwhite - You need to play more games. That's your answer. I play more than anyone I know (hell I own more games than most people have ever played) and I can tell you without hesitation that Deus Ex is a good game, but it is far from being the best.

I play a LOT of PC games even though I work full time and have other responsibilities. In fact, I'm looking at my bookcase right now and count 82 boxes of PC games purchased over the last seven or eight years -- everything from Turok to Crysis. I probably average 10 PC game per year. Deus Ex is number 1. None of the others come close.

Obviously how meaningful a game is is quite subjective. You might find games you liked better than Deus Ex, but if you were to list those, I would probably rate them lower. To each his own.

What makes Deus Ex unique is the number of people who rate it as the best game of all time. For reasons explained already, Deus Ex hit a very meaningful cord with many people. Maybe it was a fluke. Certainly unexpected. What is nearly impossible, however, is trying to replicate the "magic" and success of the original -- thus the purpose of this thread. Even if the developers come close, I would be very impressed.

Smoke Screen
16th Dec 2007, 18:29
Well,as i experienced that the mid to late nineties was a big time for
progressive thinking gamedevelopers,just before big buiz really kicked in
and restructured the whole industry. Probably a similar time like the late
sixties/early seventies for the music buisness.
Deus Ex and Systems Shock 2 and Thief 2 was devoleped in this time and some
ppl criss-crossed the devteams,helping each other out. I can imagine that all
three games had a benefit from beeing developed by ppl who know
each other well,probably beeing friends and long time colleagues and share
similar ideas. And btw. not to mention Mr. Romeros role in backing up the
financial things for Deus Ex which left the DX-Devteam with much less
pressure than common.
I guess that we could play such well done games was not only thanks to a
couple clever ppl,but also to the right chemistry between them and lucky
circumstances.
Ricwhite made some valid points in his entryposting but i dont share his
pessimistic view,despite the fact that in the past years a bunch of sequels
are done very badly and had the potential to kill the franchise for a long
time.
Me thinks actually gamedevs and publishers are reflecting on what happend
in the last years and notice that the old ways cant last much longer.
A new approach is needed,cause the age of a common gamer is not a teeny
anymore. I guess we will see more games heading for the mature gamer in the
near future and DX3 will be one of it.

DOitlikeDEUSEX1
16th Dec 2007, 19:30
I have played tons of others...Half Life 1 and 2, all Splintercells, Max Payne, Far Cry, Doom (booooring) are the most known ones, but none had that special something like Deus Ex 1 had and still has with me. I still play Deus Ex MP for hours some nights. nMeACID is my game name.

Smoke Screen
16th Dec 2007, 22:42
For me a bunch of games have a "special something". All of them are
not like Deus Ex but unique on their own.
Most of this games are released in the second half of the nineties,but now and
then a new game shackles me.
Im not looking for a game i love in another game except its an official sequel.
I think that is wacky. However its also not clever by devs & publishers
not to learn what made a game great and build their next game in that particular
franchise on top of what they`ve learned.
Meanwhile they are enough experienced consumers out there who can easily
see what is quality and what is not even if the particular game is not their piece
of cake. For example "Crysis": State-of-the-Art technology but old styled
uninspired missiondesign and short playing time combined with extrem high
hardware needs for maximum eyecandy. I mean wtf. Do they think we are all
dumb ? They had better invested in better missiondesign and longer playtime
for a hit.

StormFront
16th Dec 2007, 23:38
I play a LOT of PC games even though I work full time and have other responsibilities. In fact, I'm looking at my bookcase right now and count 82 boxes of PC games purchased over the last seven or eight years -- everything from Turok to Crysis. I probably average 10 PC game per year. Deus Ex is number 1. None of the others come close.


And right there you prove my point. 10 games per year? Pl-e-e-ase...

I own 10 consoles (and none of them are M$ or PS3 (actually I own an XBOX but it is so pitiful I refuse to count it)).
I have clanned (clanned not played) since Quakeworld.
I am a beta tester for 3 major game producers
During this week alone I have installed 12 new games

The point is I have played a LOT more than you. Period.

I own across all platforms in excess of 500 games (but I have traded in at least twice as many).

I allow myself to experience all that gaming has to offer so that I can feel thoroughly immersed in the medium. And before you say "well why aren;t you a reviewer": The answer is becasue I Disagree with 90%+ of all reviews. I have just cancelled my 5 year subscription to Edge as they have clearly lost their minds

Point is, I ain't pi$$ing in the wind here....

SageSavage
17th Dec 2007, 04:46
Point is, I ain't pi$$ing in the wind here....
Nope, you seem to be enjoying to piss other posters off.

The point is I have played a LOT more than you. Period.
So 12 games this week? Dude, that seems like soo much fun... How many did you install in 2007? 500? Makes you a professional installer at least.

Deus Ex 3
17th Dec 2007, 06:07
You forgot the huge philosophy side of DX1, which is totally amazing for a video game.

gamer0004
17th Dec 2007, 13:58
Personally I think Stormfront is either making things up or his posts can be ignored, because when you install 12 games a weak you can't play them all for a substantial time and finish some of them.
Sure, I can install all tycoon games ever created and play them all for one hour. Does that mean I have an opinion everyone should listen to because I'm the expert at tycoon games?
No, of course not. Some games need several playing hours before you can see how great it is, some are great for the duration pf an hour but after that get very dull and some are great from the beginning. Playing a lot of games doesn't mean you are an expert in a genre or even in every (pc-)game ever made. It doesn't even mean you know a lot about a genre. The only thing you know is how great (or otherwise) the first few hours of a game are.

StormFront
17th Dec 2007, 14:27
Personally I think Stormfront is either making things up or his posts can be ignored, because when you install 12 games a weak you can't play them all for a substantial time and finish some of them.
Sure, I can install all tycoon games ever created and play them all for one hour. Does that mean I have an opinion everyone should listen to because I'm the expert at tycoon games?
No, of course not. Some games need several playing hours before you can see how great it is, some are great for the duration pf an hour but after that get very dull and some are great from the beginning. Playing a lot of games doesn't mean you are an expert in a genre or even in every (pc-)game ever made. It doesn't even mean you know a lot about a genre. The only thing you know is how great (or otherwise) the first few hours of a game are.

The amount of games I have never finished is very low and is usually only the very bad ones (recently such "gems" as Bioshock and Area 51:Blacksite have remained in the unfinished category)

I was not bragging or boasting: Fundamentally the amount of time I spend playing games is embaressing given I am not paid to do it! My point was that I do have a very wide experience of games and that is why I can confidently say that DX is not the best PC game ever. It was certainly a truly amazing title but IMHO it is merely a first try at a budding genre. Sure it did a lot more things than your basic shooter but it did a HELL of a less than your basic RPG. My point is it did some things well, others badly and some very badly indeed. I believe it was a good starting block: A measure by which future attempts can be judged. However there are other PC games out there that while somewhat less ambitious are simply more succesful at what they try and so I therefore conclude that they are better games

Why you have to be such an arse all the time is beyond me, gamer0004. We are just here to chat and share ideas: E-peens are stictly left at the door mate...

gamer0004
17th Dec 2007, 17:38
lol I'm not enjoying to piss off other users of this forum like -=fox=- said.
Anyway, to get back to the point: DX isn't perfect. When it was released the graphics weren't state of the art and now it's even worse.
Didn't like Bioshock either (another point of agreement :P), it was such a standard game, don't know why everyone thought it was such a great game.

But, please name 1, just one, game you think is better than DX. I've finished both Morrowind and Oblvion (2 very well known rpg's), both with both their expansion packs. Morrowind was really great, the atmosphere was at least as good as in DX, but otherwise it still wasn't as good as DX. There weren't as many options to solve problems and (partly because of the length of the main quest) I wouldn't want to start all over again like in Deus ex. There were lots of books, but it was a bit of an overkill so I didn't read many.
They did that better in Oblivion with the black horse courier. However, the stupid leveling system (everyone NPC levels the same as you do, when you ding they all do, so after a few days everyone walks around in expensive armor) sucked ass because what's the point in an RPG? Leveling. What's the point of leveling in Oblivion? There is none (besides getting better at certain skills). Was better in Morrowind, you had to level to defeat the Boss (have no idea what he was called :P) and after a while you were able to kill lots of guards but still the game offered a challenge because of your quest-enemies.
DX was technically not very advanced, but the gameplay was a great mix of rpg, fps and sneak. And I don't know a single game who has done that in such a great way.

Xcom
17th Dec 2007, 18:00
But, please name 1, just one, game you think is better than DX.

Tetris, man. It's pure genius. :D

LuciusDeBeers
29th Dec 2007, 16:33
Deus Ex remains to this day my favourite game of all time. However taking off my rose coloured spectacles I can see the flaws inherent within the game:

Worst offender: AI - if DX3 has to improve on any one area this is it.

Also: some augs felt fairly redundant, hacking and lockpicking involved little interaction, there were supply crates placed seemingly everywhere and anywhere, you had to manually rearrange your inventory to pick up items when it should of done this automatically, you couldn't pick up bodies with a full inventory, you sometimes had to drop items to pick up a weapon mod/aug canister etc. then pick the item up again after using the aforementioned item.

Less important: Ropey graphics if you turned up the brightness on your monitor, some really bad sound FX, very strange and unnatural animation.

DX:IW tried to correct many of these problems but it did so by severely dumbing them down or even removing them altogether- killing a lot of the feeling of immersion.

In regards to another post, I believe DX:IW was originally being designed with the same engine as DX1 (presumably improved to a degree) and then the decision was made to switch to a modified UE2. Suddenly all their level design had to be scaled down to accommodate the low memory environment of the xbox and the game we know and love today was the result. <sarcasm>Hurrah!</sarcasm>

p.s I played through DX:IW for the fourth time recently so it can't be that bad. I like the idea of black-market biomods and the objectives are actually more dynamic and less linear than in the original.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th Dec 2007, 17:26
Deus Ex (original) remains my top favourite game of all time. :cool:
Coming in fairly close behind is Chronicles of Ridd ick: Escape from Butcher's Bay.
That game deserves credit too, I really enjoyed it.

Escape from Castle Wolfenstein was fun, as was original and the remake of TR1.
Love all the Thief games too. :)

v.dog
29th Dec 2007, 22:03
Personally, I'd say SS2 just pips Dx1 at the post (dons flameproof suit), with Portal, Stalker, the HL series, and Thief2 all coming close behind.

The atmosphere- the isolation, the claustrophobia, the paranoia, all compounded by an omnipresent, malicious, and manipulative antagonist- has yet to be beaten.

Smoke Screen
30th Dec 2007, 04:57
Personally, I'd say SS2 just pips Dx1 at the post (dons
flameproof suit), with Portal, Stalker, the HL series, and Thief2 all coming close
behind.
The atmosphere- the isolation, the claustrophobia, the paranoia, all compounded
by an omnipresent, malicious, and manipulative antagonist- has yet to be
beaten.

Yeah,true words about System Shock 2. I share this view. BTW,have you played the fanmade addon "Ponterbee Station" ? It keeps the original qualities.
Thief 2 also was excellent,and Half-Life 1 too. But HL2 - well,it heads in a
different direction. More like fraggin fun in dystopia. But great with the mod SMOD-Tactical. However,for me HL2 was not that game i was waitin for so long.
Stalker was partly enjoyable,great potential,but the game as a whole was to much beta me thinks.

arajand
10th Jan 2008, 16:17
I agree with ricwhite

Deus Ex spoilt me, that no game after that can give the same feeling.

Initially, I thought that another game is bound to come along which would produce the same effect. But the reasons for that not happening , as ricwhite mentions, are so many...the odds are completely stacked against such a thing happening.

Can you believe it? It is already seven years...and still nothing!! Truly, great games happen only once in a while. In that respect, we are still in the DX era.

There were a few moments in Crysis...just a few fleeting moments...

Many people start talking about RPG elements, ammo, skill points, graphics etc, etc but how does it really matter? It is whether the whole blend works or not.

RÆPËR
16th Jan 2008, 02:48
It was mentioned earlier that someone said they liked the slot system for items better. I disagree, for me the inventory system in DX1 was superior to the one implemented in DXIW. In DXIW it would view grenades and such the same size as a a "heavy weapon." In DX, the size of the weapon mattered, like it would in real life. Also, the "tetris" movement added a strategy affect to the game.

SomaMech
16th Jan 2008, 06:20
And right there you prove my point. 10 games per year? Pl-e-e-ase...

I own 10 consoles (and none of them are M$ or PS3 (actually I own an XBOX but it is so pitiful I refuse to count it)).
I have clanned (clanned not played) since Quakeworld.
I am a beta tester for 3 major game producers
During this week alone I have installed 12 new games

The point is I have played a LOT more than you. Period.

I own across all platforms in excess of 500 games (but I have traded in at least twice as many).

I allow myself to experience all that gaming has to offer so that I can feel thoroughly immersed in the medium. And before you say "well why aren;t you a reviewer": The answer is becasue I Disagree with 90%+ of all reviews. I have just cancelled my 5 year subscription to Edge as they have clearly lost their minds

Point is, I ain't pi$$ing in the wind here....


E-peens are stictly left at the door mate...

Eh? :rolleyes:

As a long-time gamer, I'm sure my opinion is just as valid as yours. DX is simply the single best game I've ever played. It'd take an absolute gem of a game to change my mind. I've never enjoyed playing a game as much as DX, and having a few technical flaws pointed out to me doesn't change my opinion in the slightest. That is not what gaming is about.

Deus Ex has always been classed as an FPSRPG, but it's always been more of an FPS with RPG elements. As for you saying there is no character development in DX1, I have to question whether you've even played the game? If you're as much of a gamer as you seem to think you are, you shouldn't have any trouble understanding that genre classification isn't black or white and that hybrid-genre games (Like DX) don't have to be 50-50. Just because DX is an FPSRPG, it doesn't have to hold the same RPG qualities as the Elder Scroll series.

Mythrander101
16th Jan 2008, 08:29
Hello everyone, it's been a long time since I frequented these forums, and I must admit that I'm excited and hesitant about this announcement of Deus Ex 3; AKA Another attempt.

I've not played every game ever made, but I do have a bit of knowledge about many games, and know more about some than I'd care to admit. (For instance: Completely memorizing the entirety of Deus Ex, knowing all of the secret places and quite literally making a fifteen page word document listing all known available logins/passwords and codes from start to finish. Even beating the game in full Matrix Mode was fun. /blush)

For me, Deus Ex was and is the perfect game. Yes, it has flaws, but tell me a game that doesn't. It's not perfect because it's the best in every aspect, such as: best FPS, or best RPG, or what have you. It's not the best stealth game, Thief and Splinter Cell far exceed DX simply because they were designed for the sole purpose of being stealth. It's not the best RPG ever. I think that Morrowind (Another game which enslaved me for many months.) beats DX in RP even though neither game was MultiRP like World of Warcraft (Darn you Blizz for sinking your talons in). You could only RP, alone, with NPCs, which isn't horribly exciting. DX isn't the best FPS. I like Half-Life series and Return to Castle Wolfenstein because it has the mindless kill everything premise. (Both of those have fairly decent storylines too, but lets not get into that shall we?)

Deus Ex is perfect because:

1. It has the best thought out, most detailed and interesting storyline I've seen in a game to date.

2. It does an excellent job of combining multiple game play styles to fit the multiple kinds of personalities of it's players. IE: You can play the game as Rambo, going in and blasting the living hell out of your enemies, you can be a stealth/assassin type who goes around silently taking out opponents, or you can be the pacifist by rendering your enemy unconscious (with the exception of three or four main characters).

3. It's skill based system allows you to fully customize your character to what you want him to be. These allow you to become more proficient in your style of play, whether it be moving faster with heavy weapons, or providing better aim with rifles and hand guns, or being able to perform open heart surgery using household materials.

4. It's level design is one of the most intuitive I've seen yet. They offer you multiple entrances based on your style of game play. There were always two or more entrances to a building, the layouts of buildings and cities made sense (for the most part), and you felt like you were in an actual place. Also, loading screens took maybe ten seconds; not like the three minutes that IW took where you could go get a drink and a snack and return to the loading screen, much like Dial-up.

5. The inventory system was logical and kinda fun. Here you have the aforementioned 'tetris' system of storing your equipment, forcing you to decide... "Do I want to drop the 'Street Sweeper' Shotgun and the submachine gun for the Plasma Rifle?" Different types of weapons have different numbers of slots that they take up. Then there comes the point where you say to yourself, "What the heck do I drop in order to make space for the best and most used weapon in the game?" Which is the DTS of course.

6. The open endedness of the game via conversational options. For instance: When in Hell's Kitchen before going to the Brooklyn Naval Shipyards, you can go to the Underworld Tavern and talk to Vinny. If you say you'll check things out, then he'll tell his buddies at the front gate to let you in. If you chose the different option, or didn't talk to him at all then you'll be fighting your way in from the first step off of the helicopter. Also, quite a few of the conversations were humorous. (And if you ever wondered what happened to that guy in Paris who kept trying to convince his girlfriend to move to America with him...well... they never made it. I killed them shortly after their conversation, took all their money and useful possessions, then left as if nothing had happened.)

7. The augmentation system and weapon modifications were the most interesting and, quite honestly, the whole point of the game. Many of the biomods were quite overused but then again a good number of them were useless.

8. The use of hacking and picking locks proved an interesting and most useful aspect towards game play. You didn't need some retarded biomod that allows you to hack computers and terminals. And at times it was fun deciding whether or not to use the last of your multitools to open a door, or just simply toss a LAM in it's direction and take cover.

9. The sounds of the game were priceless. I wouldn't change the music for anything and the alarms still give me the 'oh crap' feeling. (Not quite as bad as the original Half-Life klaxon though. /shiver)

10. The characters were so well developed and believable that I actually cared about most of them, from my fellow employees at UNATCO to the Rentons, to Maggie Chow herself.

11. Finally, the wondrous minutes you'd spend trying to chop down helpless pigeons with your DTS, or taking pot shots at them with your pistol.

Things I didn't like about Deus Ex are some of the things people have mentioned previously like AI issues, lack of graphical quality, the nine hundred thousand combat knives in the game and how every single living creature seemed to be carrying one:mad2: , and of course the inevitable question of "How the heck could Anna Navarre know her own killphrase and yet still be alive?" :scratch: And I didn't really like the fact that I didn't have the choice of not siding with my brother and joining UNATCO and MJ12 in world domination; because that would have been cool.


My point is it did some things well, others badly and some very badly indeed.

Really? Technically, that statement could be used against any game ever made. So, to me, using that in defense of your position is moot. Pointless.

I believe it was StormFront who also said that IW was better than DX. Where in the heck did you get that idea? The instant I heard that IW was in the works I thought... "So how are they going to combine all three endings?" So I bought it and played. And while it had it's aspects of 'fun', I never got the feeling that I was playing a Deus Ex game. I never became immersed. I never cared about the characters at all.

The maps were too small and the loading times too long. Yes, I've read all about the 'built on the worst engine' stuff, but Eidos should have released a version for the X-box and a version for the PC. That would have made sense, but I suppose that they were more focused on meeting deadlines than optimizing the efficiency of the game.

There were some aspects of IW that I did enjoy, namely:

1. Black market Biomods. Those were cool. My favorite was Bot Domination.

2. The fact that food stacked into one pile, and that you could hold like 30 of them.

3. The visual effect of turning invisible (to robots or people) was nice in that you felt like you were invisible. Also, the full screen 'see through walls' was nice instead of having a window like the original DX did.

4. Secret weapons like the Hellfire dart gun or the poison dagger were fun to play with. Also, weapon mods like the glass destabilizer and emp bullets were interesting.

When compared to DX, IW was a joke in all respects. BUT, if you treat IW as a stand alone game, and compare it to other FPS games, it was pretty good.

I've yet to see a game come close to the fun and depth of DX. Every time through the game is different. I don't classify DX as an FPS really... It's a thinking man (or woman)'s game, not some brainless shoot-em-up like Halo.

There are several hundred posts and topics on the pros and cons of DX and IW, and if Eidos has any sense they'll look at a good number of them, take what their community is saying under consideration, and apply them to DX3. And if they need help, they should contact Warren Spector as he's the mastermind that is behind, what I like to call, The Deus Ex Experience.

Thank you for your time.

Mythrander101

foxberg
17th Jan 2008, 20:01
I absolutely agree with the topic of this thread.

Tracer Tong
18th Jan 2008, 00:06
I play a lot, and I must say that DX1 was the deepest game I ever played.

Right after it comes the new and very innovative, "Portal". Similarly to DX, it has a much deeper plot, which makes you think as you play (so what if it's a damn puzzle game?)

Coming in third is Morrowind. (Wow, I guess that we DX3 forumers have the same taste in perfect games). 5 years ago I could've put it first.

Contrary to common beliefs, I liked Bioshock. The major plot twist, the immersive environment and the plasmids did the trick (mainly the plot twist).

How can you forget the clumsy Gunther? The soda-can incident?
How can you forget characters like Daedalus and Icarus (AKA Helios)? (They actually gave me the creeps while playing the game, thinking I was controlled)
And what about Paul? Tracer Tong? JOCK? The main thing that kept these characters alive for me was the infolinks.
I don't remember a single name from DX2. Except the DuClaire gal or something.

gamer0004
18th Jan 2008, 07:40
Gunther wasn't clumsy... There was only lemon-lime in the machine :rasp:
Play DX:IW dude :D

Tracer Tong
18th Jan 2008, 08:33
Gunther wasn't clumsy... There was only lemon-lime in the machine :rasp:
I remember reading all of his emails at unatco (aka Skul-Gun) just for fun (and then when he was following me around the world). He had bad English.




Play DX:IW dude :D

Seriously, all I remember is 'Taurus', mosques (with hooded people which turn out to be the DuClaire woman), NGResonance and the weird russia-based (forgot their names) too-much-modded people who sold the black market biomods.

I liked those too much modded people and the augmentation that was missing in DX1: bot domination. Not much else.


P.S. @Mythrander101: I liked the post.

Necros
19th Jan 2008, 07:54
Oh, and about fear...Don't. Use. Bullet-time. This has been done to death since Max Payne, and it's just NOT FUNNY anymore.
Oh, you're wrong about that, sir. :D I still love bullet time and want to see it in many games to come. But of course not in a DX game. :)

Abramoo
19th Jan 2008, 12:20
Deus Ex is porobably the best PC game ever, yet there is a game that impressed me almost us much as DX. I am thinking about Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines. Sure, it is troubled by bugs and not that immersive, but the plot, characters, environment and music were nothing short of revelation for me. It is stil a mystery to me why this game is so unknown and underrated.

If Deus Ex is number one, Bloodlines is undoubtedly number two.

SageSavage
19th Jan 2008, 13:12
:) Coincidentaly I am about to finish my third walkthrough of VTMB right now. I was just tabbing out of the game to look for a hint how to move that stupid bar in front of the door at Ming Xaos temple - again...

I think VTMB is indeed one hell of a great and immersive adult game. There are lots of similarities with DX. There's more RPG in VTMB which shows especially in the action parts but that's just a matter of preferences. I'd say it's also very immersive. I am just more into cyberpunk than into vampires but I still love it. The bugs were a big throwback but the games is very well playable when you use one of the two fan patches ("Unofficial" or "True"). It's very sad that Troika closed doors after this one and again there are some similarities with DX.

Tracer Tong
20th Jan 2008, 13:40
I just unknowingly talked about VTMB in a "NEW features" thread. Amazing.

The great advantage that VTMB has is it being an adult game, and no less.

Not being aimed for the usual 12-18 (Maybe 17 because of ESRB's Mature/Adults Only) removes many, MANY barriers. Too bad Warren didn't learn about that when making DX:IW. DX1 was aimed for older people intellectually, rather than content-wise, which also removes many barriers.

nkepke
27th Jan 2008, 13:53
"However, I do not agree with your statement that "if DX:IW had not been built in the worlds worst engine, would have ben a perfectly good game.".
"


There was a lot more than level size wrong with that game. A lot of the gameplay decisions made, in my opinion detracted from the game. Things like universal ammo, the cutting of all RPG elements, poor character development, and even the changing of some items.


What I would mostly like to see is that they take DX 1 as a base to build upon. Take the RPG elements and build and improve on them, don't cut them. Improve the AI alot. Take how the first game had several ways of gaining entrance into a place with different styles of play and improve upon that. Improve the stealth system used in the game. Improve the hacking system maybe. But whatever you do please try and keep that Deus Ex feel from the first game.

I don't expect a story like the one form the first game, I do hope for one that has many twists and turns in its plot and that will surprise the player. They tried that in IW but nothing in that games story caught me off gaurd, they dropped too many hints at what was coming to surprise me at all.

I think what was done before was they took a great FPS/RPG hybrid and nearly turned it into a plain old FPS in IW. Please take this franchise back to it's hybrid roots.

I just felt obliged to write and tell you how much I agree with everything you said. That's exactly how I feel about the first game and my hopes about the third one.

Deathraven
27th Jan 2008, 19:58
Anyone trying to say they DX 2 was better then the 1st (there are a few to many) just don't appreciate how deep DX1 is and only wanted more of an action shooter then what DX was which is a FPS Role Playing Game, the 1st of its kind. DX1 truly is a unique game and in my opinion the best PC game ever made for so many reasons.
Few games these days last over 8-10 hrs and all they concentrate on is making the game shallow with great graphics. I want better graphics only to further increase how real the STORY feels. Not to have things that are pretty to blow up into chunks. It was the dark and gritty feeling of a not so bright future of DX1 that pulled me in in the first place and better graphics honestly would not have made a difference imo. I was so upset with how much attention was payed to graphics in DX2 making the game so short and pretty boring since the story was so short and not thought out. DX 2 also was made idiots friendly by taking out skills all together and the fun of having to take notes of some things you read and type out into terminals manually and read stuff on computers in game. Those are some of my favourite things from the first game! I hope it all comes back with DX3.

G.A.Pster
28th Jan 2008, 00:13
I have to disagree; IMO Beyond Good & Evil is a better game.

Deus Ex is my second favorite game after BG&E though. :D
.......................
And irt to anyone who thought Invisible War was better I say did you even play the first game?!!
The core elements were ok in Invisible War what really sucked IMO were the endings the only one I wanted to do was ……….SPOILER WARNING……..release the counter nanites but I couldn’t do that because I didn’t kill Paul, it was like I was being punished for playing the game!
And the stupid universal ammo that was bloody retarded it’s like did they thing console gamers were so stupid that they couldn’t handle more than one type of ammo?

foxberg
7th May 2008, 19:17
I want better graphics only to further increase how real the STORY feels.


DX 2 also was made idiots friendly by taking out skills all together and the fun of having to take notes of some things you read and type out into terminals manually and read stuff on computers in game. Those are some of my favourite things from the first game! I hope it all comes back with DX3.

Completely agree. If you want pure action with great graphics there's always Doom and Quake. Not to diminish these games though, I love them too. But you can not sacrifice the essence of what DX1 was and try to attract gamers to this sequel by simply improving on graphics.

Absentia
8th May 2008, 00:06
This is actually my first post here, but i've been lurking around daily for the past month or so.
I have to say, I am a tad sick of so many DX1 "purists" here. I don't want to lecture and end up reiterating everything that StormFront has already said (I agree with him for the most part, except about IW), and at the same time i don't want to seem like i'm not a "true fan" of Deus Ex. It just seems that anyone who doubts the game seems to set off a million alarms somewhere - this is a forum, it is here for discussion of a future sequel, not just to completely idolize the old game.

Deus Ex is a great game. It introduces this vast, immersing environment and encourages you to think for yourself, or to try and put yourself in the shoes of the character, applying your own understanding and emotions. It's open ended TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. The genius of it is that it creates the *illusion* of free choice, when really a lot of the open-endedness concerns only minor changes and ultimately its linear (other than the end). But the story development and dialogue mean that when you have to finally make a snap decision at the end, you've been educated enough to be able to think for yourself.
This, primarily but among other things, is what I love about Deus Ex. A large part of me also just loves the Cyberpunk genre, and the game definitely introduced me properly to it.

As for DX2, yes like many others I was disappointed, but I didn't play it with huge expectations so I at least tried to find the best out of it. To be honest, it's not a bad game. The idea of the factions was interesting, and for me it really hit home with what i was familiar with when DuClare and Dumier started lecturing about the Illumaniti's idea of governing. We all know its faults, and there are definitely more faults than there are good points about it, but I don't think its so bad that its undeserving of the "Deus Ex" title. I mean come on, Warren Spector was still making it at least, and he's not doing DX3.

It doesn't look like i'm going anywhere with this actually. I got caught up, but what I mainly want to say is that most people on here are so impressed with DX1 that they want EVERYTHING it had to offer, and improvements on everything it was bad at. ie. Deus Ex v2.0

If they were making this, then how is a developers supposed to be motivated to create a sequel, an advancement on an intellectual property, when they are merely trying to match up to their older standards. If you are trying to do the same thing and improve, it becomes very hard to be genuinely original.

DX:IW was a different way of dealing with it. It was still creative in its storyline, and i found that rather interesting, it just was executed badly and they tried out a system which just didn't work so well, which is unfortunate.

Like IW was to DX, DX3 has to be something different from both of them.
it has to branch out and be its own game.
Of course this means that people will complain, you have to accept that.
OBVIOUSLY it means they can use what was good and bad about both games and expand on their experience - that only makes it easier to know how to model a great game.
As long as they stick to the basic ideas of environments, storylines, characters, and immersion, I actually don't mind what they do. I just know that I want something very different but still just as encapsulating as previous efforts - but it's not like that element of gameplay has only ever been seen in Deus Ex.
They should just go to town with it. If constantly trying to stick to constraints is going to hinder their creativity, then that's not a good thing.

mad_red
8th May 2008, 18:52
Technically, I think Deus Ex is the best game ever made.

Again, if you disagree, name a game that you think is better.



Subjectively, I like Planescape: Torment better. That's because I'm a planescape fan.

The reason I love these two games is because I regard games as art. Art is great skill producing something that other cannot easily reproduce. Who can make a better Deus Ex 1?

Ok, now who can make a better Crysis? How about a better Tetris? What about Portal?

What I enjoy the most about Deus Ex is how the take some of the most difficult subject matter and craft something familiar supremely enjoyable from it.


So, improving which of the above games (or any game you can come up with) presents the greatest challenge?

Graphics, interface, balance, etc. those are the easy parts. How about creativity, philosophy, maturity, immersion? How will you improve that?

That's why I think Deus Ex and PS: Torment are the best.

(Hope I find the time for Beyond Good and Evil, I guess. Any Nietzsche in there?)

B0b_P@ge
9th May 2008, 04:09
I would argue that, with the amount of reading, interactivity and open ended playing, Deus Ex transcended the traditional videogame title and reached a height that has never been seen in videogame history... a sort of 'enlightenment' if you will. And shouldn't even be called a video game, but something else... I don't know... maybe an interactive video book? As you play, it molds the story according to your actions. I mean, has any other game ever came close to this, where as you interact with it, the story molds intself accordingly but still presents the intended goal? A couple years ago I've read this sci-fi book called 'The Diamond Age' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Age), in it this girl got a book that tells a specific story but molds itself according to the persons interactions with it (mind you, this takes place sometime in 2100+), so for example, if the girl says she has a brother to the book, the book literally creates her brothers description in the story and continues to tell the story.... the point is, Deus Ex seems to me something very similar. The author of this post is absolutely right, Dx is just a rare gem, a sample if you will, of the type of games that will come out in 20-30 years from now..... Judging the sad state that the gaming industry is in, it might even be longer before Dx1 will get dethrowned as the best (and in my opinion greatest) game in history.

rhalibus
14th May 2008, 23:46
I've always said that Deus Ex is the closest we have ever come to the Holodeck. :)

I'm replaying Deus Ex now, and it's the details in immersion that really stand out:

Tripping the laser in Smuggler's Den that relases the guard bot, and having to wait for the elevator to come down before you can escape back to the surface of Hell's Kitchen...("come on, come ON..")

Your first fight with Gunther Hermann in the subway, seeing him fry some boxes behind you with a weapon you've never seen before ("what the hell is THAT?")

Following Walter Simmons down to the detention block of UNATCO, just to see him interrogate the NSF prisoners, and watching him gun them down and turn directly to you ("You saw nothing, Denton.")

All these different but immersive kinds of experiences together form the sum of Deus Ex's parts...many games have done one or two of these, often with better results (and usually with better graphics...:)) but no game since has put them all together the way Deus Ex did. That is why, even now, eight years later, I am still completely immersed in Deus Ex all over again.

Deus Ex is indeed the greatest game ever made.

Apollonius
15th May 2008, 06:19
I agree completely! It didn't acieve game of the year for nothing!

All the best to the dev team! Can't wait! :nut:

Unstoppable
15th May 2008, 06:23
Well why bump this thread up but so be it. It is my favorite PC game alongside Thief: The Dark Project. Deus Ex 3 will not disappoint have faith.

Marcosll
30th May 2008, 15:06
Essentials for an epic Deus Ex 3


Open World the size of GTA: San Andreas if not larger.
High level of interactivity with objects, people, terminals, weapons.
Weapon Customiztion (why just be able to upgrade your char?)
Vehicles
Superb music and environmental sounds.
Optional text. Put a ton of optional text for those who wish to delve further.
An economy. Credits buy all sorts of stuff.
Good AI.

gamer0004
30th May 2008, 16:59
Essentials for an epic Deus Ex 3


Open World the size of GTA: San Andreas if not larger.
High level of interactivity with objects, people, terminals, weapons.
Weapon Customiztion (why just be able to upgrade your char?)
Vehicles
Superb music and environmental sounds.
Optional text. Put a ton of optional text for those who wish to delve further.
An economy. Credits buy all sorts of stuff.
Good AI.

No, it doesn't have to be as big as GTA:SA. The world won't be detailed enough that way.

jordan_a
30th May 2008, 19:26
Open World the size of GTA: San Andreas if not larger..You're on the wrong forum, we're talking about clever video games here. :D

rhalibus
31st May 2008, 00:07
Warren Spector spoke of his idea of a game to take place in a single city block--with every house, business, store and street accessable, including every one of the hundreds of NPC's portrayed as an individual character. While I don't think DX3 needs a GTA style format, GTA shows the detail you can put into a game that runs on 512 MB of memory.

I would love every level in DX3 to be as detailed as a single city block. I'm re-visiting the Hong Kong levels of DX1 now; getting lost and finding submerged tunnels and dangerous alleys--and even the sparse detail of a nine year old game can still immerse you. Imagine a real district or city block of Hong Kong or Shinjuku or Paris, where you can break into any apartment or store and find new details in everything from posters, diaries and magazines to phone messages and hackable laptops--all giving life to the complexity and immersion of an actual simulated city...

This is totally possible, and after an initial engine and geometry setup would require only extensive set dressing and content creation (pictures, stories, data, emails, etc.). Eidos Montreal could out-source some of it to the fans, the way the producers of the new Watchmen movie are asking fans to make fake commercials that will be included on background TV's...

gamer0004
31st May 2008, 15:01
Warren Spector spoke of his idea of a game to take place in a single city block--with every house, business, store and street accessable, including every one of the hundreds of NPC's portrayed as an individual character. While I don't think DX3 needs a GTA style format, GTA shows the detail you can put into a game that runs on 512 MB of memory.

I would love every level in DX3 to be as detailed as a single city block. I'm re-visiting the Hong Kong levels of DX1 now; getting lost and finding submerged tunnels and dangerous alleys--and even the sparse detail of a nine year old game can still immerse you. Imagine a real district or city block of Hong Kong or Shinjuku or Paris, where you can break into any apartment or store and find new details in everything from posters, diaries and magazines to phone messages and hackable laptops--all giving life to the complexity and immersion of an actual simulated city...

This is totally possible, and after an initial engine and geometry setup would require only extensive set dressing and content creation (pictures, stories, data, emails, etc.). Eidos Montreal could out-source some of it to the fans, the way the producers of the new Watchmen movie are asking fans to make fake commercials that will be included on background TV's...

Yes. I mean, if like 5 people take one month to come up with ideas then you already have an enormous amount of ideas and texts. You just have to have people with great writing skill to get right (realistic).

dukehotty
12th Aug 2008, 01:17
Dx1 is my favorite game of all time. I didn't discover until it was already old even worse, didn't discover what DXMP was until months later. I really enjoyed the DXMP and I hope DX3 has something like that. I expected too much from DX2 but I did enjoy the soundtrack, if that helps.

El_Bel
12th Aug 2008, 12:24
This is totally possible, and after an initial engine and geometry setup would require only extensive set dressing and content creation (pictures, stories, data, emails, etc.). Eidos Montreal could out-source some of it to the fans, the way the producers of the new Watchmen movie are asking fans to make fake commercials that will be included on background TV's...

I hope they do that. I would give anything to write stories, data and mails. But i dont have high expectations.. I dont think i'll ever see any of my or any other fans art in the game :(

ikenstein
12th Aug 2008, 12:29
the first play through of deus ex was amazing. it was huge, i thought i was near the end when i was in hong kong. i thought after liberty island, hells kitchen, the airtport, the underground tunnels, the nsf base, escaping from unatco, the helecopter base, hong kong and versalife i must be near the end. but the game has just started.

and the levels were cool. like the email in versalife said they give you a chanve to do stuff you normally wouldnt

"It's an action-adventure-philosophy film," said Todd. "And hopefully you'll see
things experience things you've never had an opportunity to experience
before. With this movie I'm really hoping to build an intricate, engrossing
tapestry of story and character before everything goes horribly awry, of
course, and the real fun begins."

add to that a fantastic story, like a detective novel and a jason bourne meets robocop lead charactor, rpg elements, wepon upgrades, stealth the list goes on.

deus ex 1 was the best game of all time by far. like another dude said, it ruind pc games for me.