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CaptainJorge
9th Dec 2007, 21:31
Take a look at the original Deus Ex. The developers weren't afraid to be smarter than you are. Doctor Reyes happily talks to you about the details of augmentations in your brain: 'microreceiver exostructures on the sulci, mechano-carbon threads on the axons, for queing, you know, packet routing'. Scientists chatter on about Tokamacs and Biometrics packages. Different people talk like they should and sound like they know what they're talking about. The game is littered with books containing excerpts from The Art of War, Shakespeare's Richard III, Thomas Paine's Common Sense, The Man Who Was Thursday, and the game's own fiction. They were not crucial to the plot, but added so much to the world. Not to mention that the passages cleverly dealt with pertinent issues in the game's world. The plot was not bluntly force-fed to the player. Putting all this together gives the player the sense that there is something bigger than themselves in the game-world, instead of everything revolving around the main character. This illusion truly made Deus Ex a great game, and my all time favorite.

Keep this in mind as you design its successor.

Dave W
10th Dec 2007, 01:40
Scientists don't dryly recite these terms, you know, and more often than not it sounds like random technical terms thrown in to give the idea of intelligence. Books, fair enough, but people? It just sounds silly.

CaptainJorge
10th Dec 2007, 02:06
Well, those kinds of conversations weren't the norm, but they were appropriate where placed - such as Dr. Reyes and a few of the Versalife Researchers. The trick is - as you said, to make it so that it doesn't feel thrown in randomly. I certainly wouldn't want every scientist bombarding me with jargon, but little well placed touches here and there can do a lot.

Bluey71
10th Dec 2007, 11:02
Well, those kinds of conversations weren't the norm, but they were appropriate where placed - such as Dr. Reyes and a few of the Versalife Researchers. The trick is - as you said, to make it so that it doesn't feel thrown in randomly. I certainly wouldn't want every scientist bombarding me with jargon, but little well placed touches here and there can do a lot.

Yup have to agree with that.

SageSavage
10th Dec 2007, 20:37
I think it's a valid point that DX3 shouldn't be afraid of being smarter than some of its audience. I think this is a common problem nowadays, especially with ports. Another good point hidden in there is that DX1 paid incredibly much attention to the details, which added soo much atmosphere, playtime and impressive moments to the experience. I haven't understood all of the ingame tech-infos but at least some of it and it made sense to me, which is why they felt authentic to me. It's also a form of respect the devs are showing the audience.

ricwhite
11th Dec 2007, 02:29
The original Deus Ex was developed during the late 90’s for a rather sophisticated PC gaming community. The authors didn’t hold back.

Today, games – especially console versions – are aimed at 13-18 year-old attention deficit kids who want action and room shaking bass. Story, atmosphere, characterization, plot are all secondary.

Not only has the audience changed, but (and I don’t mean to be disrespectful here) a vast majority of developers today are the products of this ADHD generation. The art of sophisticated story-telling has largely been lost.

I can’t see DX3 appeal to an “intelligent” audience when, at the same time, they are trying to dummy it down to appease a wider console-based audience.

Of course, this is coming from someone who is 47 years old, so take it for what it’s worth.

WhatsHisFace
11th Dec 2007, 03:46
The original Deus Ex was developed during the late 90’s for a rather sophisticated PC gaming community. The authors didn’t hold back.

Today, games – especially console versions – are aimed at 13-18 year-old attention deficit kids who want action and room shaking bass. Story, atmosphere, characterization, plot are all secondary.
Deus Ex: Invisible War was developed for both platforms, and I must say the game had some very engaging and deep conversations. Don't forget about the interaction you have with JC Denton at the Shakleton Ice Shelf, or with Paul Denton in Cairo. You're making it sound like Deus Ex: Invisible War became Unreal Tournament 2004. Let's keep it realistic. It's not a game designed with 13-18 year olds in mind (though I was in my teen years playing both titles, I deeply enjoyed them).


Not only has the audience changed, but (and I don’t mean to be disrespectful here) a vast majority of developers today are the products of this ADHD generation. The art of sophisticated story-telling has largely been lost.

I can’t see DX3 appeal to an “intelligent” audience when, at the same time, they are trying to dummy it down to appease a wider console-based audience.

Of course, this is coming from someone who is 47 years old, so take it for what it’s worth.
With large studios like Warner Bros. intellectualizing it's big releases like Batman Begins and the reversal of MGM's James Bond in Casino Royale, it's clear that the mass market is receptive to sophistication.

Movies like Transformers will always go over big, but I doubt Eidos' mandate revolves around making Deus Ex 3 a Gears of War clone. ;)

CaptainJorge
11th Dec 2007, 04:04
I think it's a valid point that DX3 shouldn't be afraid of being smarter than some of its audience. I think this is a common problem nowadays, especially with ports. Another good point hidden in there is that DX1 paid incredibly much attention to the details, which added soo much atmosphere, playtime and impressive moments to the experience. I haven't understood all of the ingame tech-infos but at least some of it and it made sense to me, which is why they felt authentic to me. It's also a form of respect the devs are showing the audience.

Aye. I too understood parts, but not all of the tech-info at first. At first impression it seemed to just be good made up sci-fi stuff - what really impressed me was that they were all real tech, either existing or important parts of theoretical science and nanotechnology. I googled things from the game like 'bucky-tubes' (aka carbon nanotube, very insightful wikipedia article on it), gray-goo, and nanotechnology in general. It's the kind of stuff that can inspire one to learn more, or even pursue those sciences as a career. I'm just wrapping up my college degree in computer science but its still fascinating. The game also opened me up to some good books I hadn't been exposed to before. The Art of War is an excellent text, and The Man Who Was Thursday is a great spy novel. When was the last time a game inspired you to read books or look up scientific articles?


The original Deus Ex was developed during the late 90’s for a rather sophisticated PC gaming community. The authors didn’t hold back.

Today, games – especially console versions – are aimed at 13-18 year-old attention deficit kids who want action and room shaking bass. Story, atmosphere, characterization, plot are all secondary.

Not only has the audience changed, but (and I don’t mean to be disrespectful here) a vast majority of developers today are the products of this ADHD generation. The art of sophisticated story-telling has largely been lost.

I can’t see DX3 appeal to an “intelligent” audience when, at the same time, they are trying to dummy it down to appease a wider console-based audience.

Of course, this is coming from someone who is 47 years old, so take it for what it’s worth.

Good sir, You hit the nail on the head with a sledgehammer. I myself am 25, and I have been able to see this change, especially in the PC RPG area. You are absolutely right, and it is sad, but I still hope. As others have said, Deus Ex elevated games to an art form. It is strange and disheartening to see games reach that epoch and then fall back down the mountain. Not all games need to be a Deus Ex of course. . . same as there are comic books, paintings, sculptures and masterpieces - they all have their merits and are enjoyable - so games should span a similar variety. Things just seem to pander to the lowest common denominator - and everything is shoot shoot boom action wheres the next awesome thing to do quick! I'm a red-blooded man and I enjoy all the gunfights and explosions. . . but I welcome some brains, subtlety, cunning, creativity, imagination! It seems popular media is starved of it these days. I still hope though, I hope that more developers will be willing to take risks and break out of the rut, and that the audience welcomes it with open arms and minds.

ThatDeadDude
11th Dec 2007, 14:48
Yeah, I also find subtlety to be one of the key ideas. Firstly, it means you can have all this deep and possibly relevant stuff in these somewhat obscure books, so that those who have read or know of them get it, but the ADHD kids can just run past screaming. Second, it's the subtlety that makes a good story, especially when it comes to conspiracies and the like. What's the use of a conspiracy, if everyone on every street corner knows what's going on? Those "wait, wow, that thing back at the start of the game meant something!" moments can make a game.

WhatsHisFace
11th Dec 2007, 15:16
Yeah, I also find subtlety to be one of the key ideas. Firstly, it means you can have all this deep and possibly relevant stuff in these somewhat obscure books, so that those who have read or know of them get it, but the ADHD kids can just run past screaming. Second, it's the subtlety that makes a good story, especially when it comes to conspiracies and the like. What's the use of a conspiracy, if everyone on every street corner knows what's going on? Those "wait, wow, that thing back at the start of the game meant something!" moments can make a game.
I don't think it's the "ADHD kids" who are the problem, it's the Publishers/Producers who believe the "ADHD kids" are the only people who buy games. Bioshock, Oblivion and Mass Effect have sold really well despite having complex subject matter and/or game systems. Odds are, a few "ADHD kids" picked those games up as well, and found something to like about them. Heck, I knew a kid in Highschool, the one who recommended I played Deus Ex to begin with, loving Deus Ex for the sole reason that you can set homeless kids on fire. :confused:

AgnosticJive
11th Dec 2007, 18:08
I would just like to note that despite the dumbing down of Deus Ex 2 to appeal to a wider console base...Deus Ex 1 was not only game of the year,but one of the top selling PC games of all time. A feat that hasn't really been matched since. (i.e. a PC game being named Game of the Year...not that I can really recall anyways.)
That being said...I believe that if the devs of this game were to bring back the spirit of the original their bank accounts would be thankful. (and although making a good game is a high priority...making money is a company's highest.)

Tyrant Worm
11th Dec 2007, 19:01
The fact that Deus Ex was willing to quote Voltaire and Thomas Aquinas demonstrates the level of intelligence of the developers. This is why the first game has such a devoted, rabid following. Voltaire was one of the leading thinkers of the Enlightenment, and several of the themes from the first Deus Ex game deal directly with freedom, slavery, and self-determination. Hell, the NSF leader at the top of the Statue of Liberty quotes Thomas Jefferson in defense of his leading a terrorist group. The right to abolish an unjust government. It is the themes involved in the game that made a lasting impression on myself. Furthermore, the inclusion of the tech-jargon involved in nanotechnology throughout the game made the entire premise of having superpowers (augmetations) and the Grey Death so much more plausible.

humbug
11th Dec 2007, 20:20
Intelligence in games is great. Its cool when you know what the characters are talking about, and if you don't understand, well you might learn something new. ;)

WhatsHisFace
11th Dec 2007, 22:01
I would just like to note that despite the dumbing down of Deus Ex 2 to appeal to a wider console base...Deus Ex 1 was not only game of the year,but one of the top selling PC games of all time. A feat that hasn't really been matched since. (i.e. a PC game being named Game of the Year...not that I can really recall anyways.)
That being said...I believe that if the devs of this game were to bring back the spirit of the original their bank accounts would be thankful. (and although making a good game is a high priority...making money is a company's highest.)

Dumbing down Deus Ex: Invisible War didn't appeal to a wider fanbase as was shown by the game not selling as well as the original Deus Ex. The content of the game wasn't so much dumbed down as the gameplay experience was "streamlined". I disliked the "streamlining" of the game nonetheless, and hope Eidos Montreal can make Deus Ex 3 feel more like the FPSRPG Deus Ex was, instead of the FPS with conversation trees that Deus Ex: Invisible War was.

Laputin Man
12th Dec 2007, 03:24
The original Deus Ex was developed during the late 90’s for a rather sophisticated PC gaming community. The authors didn’t hold back.

Today, games – especially console versions – are aimed at 13-18 year-old attention deficit kids who want action and room shaking bass. Story, atmosphere, characterization, plot are all secondary.

Not only has the audience changed, but (and I don’t mean to be disrespectful here) a vast majority of developers today are the products of this ADHD generation. The art of sophisticated story-telling has largely been lost.

I can’t see DX3 appeal to an “intelligent” audience when, at the same time, they are trying to dummy it down to appease a wider console-based audience.

Of course, this is coming from someone who is 47 years old, so take it for what it’s worth.

What is all this talk about ADHD? Do you think that these people are retarded? I have ADD and I played and understood the first game quite well, it is my favorite game so far and will most likely stay in the top spot always. But yeah, they should just make this next game an action packed shoot em up, because things like story and character development are obviously lost on me... please:rolleyes: In the future, try to be less ignorant.

AgnosticJive
12th Dec 2007, 03:46
Dumbing down Deus Ex: Invisible War didn't appeal to a wider fanbase as was shown by the game not selling as well as the original Deus Ex. The content of the game wasn't so much dumbed down as the gameplay experience was "streamlined". I disliked the "streamlining" of the game nonetheless, and hope Eidos Montreal can make Deus Ex 3 feel more like the FPSRPG Deus Ex was, instead of the FPS with conversation trees that Deus Ex: Invisible War was.

Ummmmm...yeeeeah,see about the "fanbase" comment,I never said that...I said they TRIED to appeal to a wider CONSOLE base,and they failed...no fanbase whatsoever. Taking an RPGFPS and turning it into a FPS is in fact dumbing it down, especially since when the end rolled around, nothing you really did mattered all that much. It wasn't streamlined in any sense of the word, it was broken into a former shell of itself because of the console hardware limitations. Regardless, technology has progressed a long way and I have faith that the game will at the very least be ninety times better than DX:IW was...maybe even ninety-three times better.

and to the ADD guy? just about anyone living in any industrialized country fits the symptoms for ADD. you have a fake disorder. get over it.

Laputin Man
12th Dec 2007, 03:58
and to the ADD guy? just about anyone living in any industrialized country fits the symptoms for ADD. you have a fake disorder. get over it.


Oh, hey thanks a lot Doctor... since you're an MD can you help me with this chronic cough I've been having lately? I seem to be allergic to the stupidity and ignorance of others. You're an idiot, get over it.

SageSavage
12th Dec 2007, 04:14
Alright guys, let's just forget the ADHD cliche thing and let's call it fastfood-games for a worldwide fastfood society or something like that. It's true that more and more people seem to lose the ability to pay enough attention (and time) to play complex games. Look at the once popular simulation-genre today and what about epic playtimes? It's not just the industry - I really do know people who say that they prefer short games so they have a chance to play em through. It's impossible though to tell a story like in DX1 without the necessary playtime.

JoeGreensKiller
12th Dec 2007, 04:35
No post is complete without my 2 cents, lol ADD-ADDICTED TO DEUS DISORDER ;) lol cheers bud..no worries:)

Anyway what impressed me about the dialog was, it really did sound like 2 ppl haveing a real conversation, not just generic "I'll give you a clue about finding something, or someone"..You had choices, and sometimes the converstaions were pretty deep..the bar tender going on about Hong Kongs economic system, almost challenging Dentons intelect, if I recall it sounded like Denton sort of gives up...it was those moments that impressed me.

CaptainJorge
12th Dec 2007, 04:44
Anyway what impressed me about the dialog was, it really did sound like 2 ppl haveing a real conversation, not just generic "I'll give you a clue about finding something, or someone"..You had choices, and sometimes the converstaions were pretty deep..the bar tender going on about Hong Kongs economic system, almost challenging Dentons intelect, if I recall it sounded like Denton sort of gives up...it was those moments that impressed me.

Ah, one of my favorite conversations in the game. It was really served no goal-oriented purpose in the game, just a little chit chat with a bartender that turns into analysis of political theory, human nature, and the foundations of civlization, great stuff, especially towards the end :



ISAAC
Beer is 15; wine is 120.

JC DENTON
Can I ask you something?

ISAAC
What do you want to know?

JC DENTON
Despite all I've read about the Triads, I wasn't prepared to see them operating
in the open, on the streets, and wearing uniforms. Doesn't the Chinese
government care?

ISAAC
The Chinese leave Hong Kong alone. They barricade the roads to control trade to the mainland, but they know how business is done.

JC DENTON
I would think the secret smuggling operations of the Triads would disturb the
Chinese government.

ISAAC
Maybe the Luminous Path, but China knows that the Red Arrow are business owners, entrepreneurs, community leaders, and that they protect the city from outside influences.

JC DENTON
You said "outside influences." What does China fear?

ISAAC
China is the last sovereign country in the world. Authoritarian but willing --
unlike U.N.-governed countries -- to give its people the freedom to do what they want.

JC DENTON
As long as they don't break the law.

ISAAC
Listen to me. This is real freedom, freedom to own property, make a profit, make your life. The West, so afraid of strong government, now has no government. Only financial power.

JC DENTON
Our governments have limited power by design.

ISAAC
Rhetoric... And you believe it! Don't you know where these slogans come from?

JC DENTON
I give up.

ISAAC
Well-paid researchers -- how do you say it? -- "think tanks," funded by big
businesses. What is that? A "think tank"?

JC DENTON
Hardly as sinister as a dictator, like China's Premier.

ISAAC
It's privately-funded propaganda. The Trilateral Commission in the United
States, for instance.

JC DENTON
The separation of powers acknowledges the petty ambitions of individuals; that's its strength.

ISAAC
A system organized around the weakest qualities of individuals will produce
these same qualities in its leaders.

JC DENTON
Perhaps certain qualities are an inseparable part of human nature.

ISAAC
The mark of the educated man is the suppression of these qualities in favor of
better ones. The same is true of civilization.

JC DENTON
I'll get a drink later.

AgnosticJive
12th Dec 2007, 05:28
Oh, hey thanks a lot Doctor... since you're an MD can you help me with this chronic cough I've been having lately? I seem to be allergic to the stupidity and ignorance of others. You're an idiot, get over it.

Alright,to start off? I personally believe that I am far from being an idiot, and considering you know nothing about me,you can't really make that judgment. I on the other hand can call into question the validity of ADD since I was diagnosed with that in school as an excuse for poor conduct grades and inattention in school. I was prescribed ritalin...never took it,and what do you know,the next grading period I had better grades! the doctor just decided to keep me on the prescription, I told my father I had never taken a single pill,and that was the end of that.

DSM-IV criteria
* Often making careless mistakes when having to work on uninteresting or difficult projects
* Often having difficulty keeping attention during work
* Often having difficulty concentrating on conversations
* Having trouble finishing projects that have already been started
* Often having difficulty organizing for the completion of tasks
* Avoiding or delaying in starting projects that require a lot of thought
* Often misplacing or having difficulty finding things at home or at work
* Often distracted by activity or noise
* Often having problems remembering appointments or obligations

One must only meet six of these for a period of only six months.
I don't think I've ever met a person that DOESN'T meet these criteria.

You basically just pay a nice sum of money for a cure to a non-exsistant problem and call people ignorant when they don't believe you have a real disorder...that in no way keeps you from leading a normal life in any way.



now back to deus ex 3.

My one main issue with the dialog in deus ex (which didn't exist initially but thanks to mass effect has kinda made me have a new level of dialog standards) is that it's pretty closed off in the sense that there isn't alot of choice to choose, not in the sense that each will lead to a different branch of dialog anyways. I hope deus ex 3 can do something along those lines.

JoeGreensKiller
12th Dec 2007, 06:34
now back to deus ex 3.

My one main issue with the dialog in deus ex (which didn't exist initially but thanks to mass effect has kinda made me have a new level of dialog standards) is that it's pretty closed off in the sense that there isn't alot of choice to choose, not in the sense that each will lead to a different branch of dialog anyways. I hope deus ex 3 can do something along those lines.

Sure theres choice, you can choose to hear one sentance, or dig deeper. I can give many examples, but heres another good one... The Underworld Bar, Talking to Jock, you dont have to listen to his Area 51 speel, you could just find out about the Generator and move on, then theres then man, and women at the other end of the bar talking about Ambrosia..you can choose to interupt them, or not, but if you don't you may miss a clue, but mabe not...All kinds of choice, the game really kind of reminds me of the old Choose your own adventure novels from back in the day...One more example when Sandra Renton is being herassed by JO JO (I think) if you dont keep talking to her, you miss the Password for Smuggler (BloodShot) ..its all in how you define choice

Tyrant Worm
12th Dec 2007, 18:15
What is all this talk about ADHD? Do you think that these people are retarded? I have ADD and I played and understood the first game quite well, it is my favorite game so far and will most likely stay in the top spot always. But yeah, they should just make this next game an action packed shoot em up, because things like story and character development are obviously lost on me... please:rolleyes: In the future, try to be less ignorant.

I've got to second this one. I played the first game when I was 19. I was diagnosed w/ ADHD at the age of 4. Deus Ex is my favorite game of all time, and I understood it completely. Now, I teach many of those 13-18 ADHD generational products, and I think that a sophisticated, complex narrative is exactly what they need to HELP with their attention spans!

AgnosticJive
12th Dec 2007, 19:14
Sure theres choice, you can choose to hear one sentance, or dig deeper. I can give many examples, but heres another good one... The Underworld Bar, Talking to Jock, you dont have to listen to his Area 51 speel, you could just find out about the Generator and move on, then theres then man, and women at the other end of the bar talking about Ambrosia..you can choose to interupt them, or not, but if you don't you may miss a clue, but mabe not...All kinds of choice, the game really kind of reminds me of the old Choose your own adventure novels from back in the day...One more example when Sandra Renton is being herassed by JO JO (I think) if you dont keep talking to her, you miss the Password for Smuggler (BloodShot) ..its all in how you define choice

Those aren't really the choices I was talking about, it's either a do or don't situation. I'm talking about like Mass Effect,where you have anywhere from two to five (if not more) other choices that can lead down very different dialog paths. Take for instance when you talk to Isaac, there's no choice...he talks,you talk automatically,so on and so forth. It's good but I think it can be improved thanks to the newer computer hardware that can support alot more than they could seven years ago. I would just like to see something a little more immersive,something that goes the extra step that most of today's games don't (despite being technologically able to.)

and will everyone please shut up with this ADD talk? It's not real,it's an excuse for legal speed. It's an excuse for not wanting to study or do any of that crap that NOBODY wants to do. Boom,done...will everyone please stop talking about having ADD like they are overcoming some great hardship? you're not.

Laputin Man
12th Dec 2007, 22:12
Alright,to start off? I personally believe that I am far from being an idiot, and considering you know nothing about me,you can't really make that judgment. I on the other hand can call into question the validity of ADD since I was diagnosed with that in school as an excuse for poor conduct grades and inattention in school. I was prescribed ritalin...never took it,and what do you know,the next grading period I had better grades! the doctor just decided to keep me on the prescription, I told my father I had never taken a single pill,and that was the end of that.

DSM-IV criteria
* Often making careless mistakes when having to work on uninteresting or difficult projects
* Often having difficulty keeping attention during work
* Often having difficulty concentrating on conversations
* Having trouble finishing projects that have already been started
* Often having difficulty organizing for the completion of tasks
* Avoiding or delaying in starting projects that require a lot of thought
* Often misplacing or having difficulty finding things at home or at work
* Often distracted by activity or noise
* Often having problems remembering appointments or obligations

One must only meet six of these for a period of only six months.
I don't think I've ever met a person that DOESN'T meet these criteria.

You basically just pay a nice sum of money for a cure to a non-exsistant problem and call people ignorant when they don't believe you have a real disorder...that in no way keeps you from leading a normal life in any way.



Hey, here are some fun facts about ADD and ADHD.


ADHD affects an estimated 3% to 5% of children and adults in the US. I'd hardly call that something that is really over diagnosed, that isn't a very high percentage. It might have been when you were a child which was I am guessing probably over 10 years or so ago because you mentioned that you were given riddilin which isn't used much for people that have ADD anymore. And back then every one I knew at school was also on that, but they don't over diagnose it as much. And also they now mostly prescribe adderol. Here is a link to http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/default.htm you can read up on it if you'd like.


Also, I don't appreciate being told that I have some imaginary disorder when I know otherwise and have had to deal with it. And I especially don't appreciate some one calling my diagnosis into question who isn't a doctor or has any real medical knowledge on the matter. You being some guy who got pills and didn't take them doesn't cut it. I never claimed that I couldn't lead a normal life with out, but in situations at school I had a lot of trouble keeping up. It is not an excuse for not wanting to study. I don't know what makes you think you are such an expert on this subject when you don't have it and you were only misdiagnosed with it once and I am guessing that happened years and years ago. You have no medical knowledge either. I may as well say that Bi-Polar isn't real or that depression isn't real or shouldn't in some severe casses be treated medically. Those 2 are much more serious than ADD, but the point still stands.

Xcom
12th Dec 2007, 22:37
Guys, this thread is going way way off-topic, so please - no more ADHD related posts. You can debate this in private if you want. ;)

Smoke Screen
16th Dec 2007, 01:46
CaptainJorge & ricwhite@: Yes,there is much truth in your postings. I think
roughly the same and btw found myself unintentional but seriously thinking
about some dialogue in DX. Which is a unique experience to this day for me.
A game made me think. Not to solve a puzzle,but to think about the world im
living in. I guess here is the border reached between a sheerly product made
for consume and a piece of art.
I play games on the pc since the early nineties and it was not very often in
this years that i thought "wow,excellent,brilliant",but DX falls clearly in this
category.
Later i often asked myself why there are no more games of this quality. I mean
not exactly like DX but intentionaly made for mature costumers with average
intellectual capabilitys.
Its not that every game i play must have this quality. I also enjoy games like
Fear or Simpson:Hit & Run for example. But sometimes i feel my needs for a
deeper game and there is nothing.

PS: Sorry for my bad english but its not my native language. :o

CaptainJorge
17th Dec 2007, 03:09
Your English is fine!

It's good to hear others share the same thoughts about Deus Ex. Here's hoping Deus Ex 3 returns to those roots, and that others are also inspired and make more thought-provoking games.

Dave W
17th Dec 2007, 16:32
Dumbing down Deus Ex: Invisible War didn't appeal to a wider fanbase as was shown by the game not selling as well as the original Deus Ex.

I take it you have sales figures for both games to actually back up that point, rather than just saying it and hoping no one calls you on it?

StormFront
17th Dec 2007, 17:01
Dumbing down Deus Ex: Invisible War didn't appeal to a wider fanbase as was shown by the game not selling as well as the original Deus Ex.

Thanks to the XBOX, IW sold FAR better than DX did. Sorry to bust your bubble, bug IW was the more popular (if more harshly criticised) game...

WhatsHisFace
17th Dec 2007, 17:47
I take it you have sales figures for both games to actually back up that point, rather than just saying it and hoping no one calls you on it?

I recall reading that Deus Ex: Invisible War sold around 500,000 units (Click here for the North America sales numbers for Invisible War (http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=25638028&print=1)) whereas Deus Ex 1 was a million-seller (I read that on GameSpy, can't find a link sadly).

Edit: Also, the poor sales of Deus Ex: Invisible War is what caused "Deus Ex: Clan Wars" to have the Deus Ex IP ripped-out and turned into "Project Snowblind".

jordan_a
5th Jan 2008, 22:32
I would simply like the organic ennemis not to take risks. They often are less equiped and powerful than us.

-they are supposed to have emotions, it's a natural instinct to protect yourself: they have to take cover
-they have to call for backup and stay hidden until it comes
-let them use flashbangs, grenades all kind of projectiles
-they could set quick traps
-they are trained : they aim well
-let them HEAL or gather their strenghts one way or another

vecima
6th Jan 2008, 03:19
...dumbing down of Deus Ex 2 to appeal to a wider console base.....

i don't mean to single you out, but you said "dumbing down" and it kind of urks me. i really don't understand this idea that the game was dumbed down for console fans. as if console video game players somehow inately have a lower IQ than that of PC video game players.

personally, because my parents couldn't afford to buy me a PC to play games on, i played the first deus ex on my ps2 (which i bought myself). i loved the game. it instantly became my favorite, and the deus ex franchise shares it's position at 1st place only with the half-life franchise in my opinion.

at any rate, deus ex: invisible war wasn't dumbed down because of being released on the Xbox... if at all, it was dumbed down as a design decision. i would argue though that the only two things you could percieve as "dumbed down" would be the removal of skill points, which was at least somewhat explained by being a graduate of tarsus academy, and the limitation of graphics quality to run on the xbox. if you ask me, it's a good thing they limited the graphics quality, because the game runs horribly on systems that meet the recommended requirements anyway. it's also assanine to assume that the entire game was built around what the Xbox couldn't do. look at the first deus ex on ps2, aside from having smaller levels the game transitioned IN TACT. it actually looked BETTER too thanks to higher poly characters. to assume that the xbox placed some limitation on the game other than level size and texture resolution is just plain unfounded. look to other games like KOTOR (and there are others) and you'll see that complex rpg elements aren't limited on a console.

the dialogue, plot, and everything else that made the first DX great were still available. books were still around offering insights into the universe, news consoles were still there, and in terms of plot / progression the second one actually offered more replayability depending on if you choose WTO or order in the begninning... or if you choose quequegs or pequods to side with.

admittedly i like the first DX more, but blaming the "dumbing down" of the second game on "stupid console gamers" is just idiotic. think about these things a bit more people before you go on griping about everything being console gamers faults. trust me, plenty of ADHD kids and annoying spoiled borderline retards play PC games too.

why not for once hold the developers responsible for their design decisions?


A feat that hasn't really been matched since. (i.e. a PC game being named Game of the Year...not that I can really recall anyways.)

i guess you never played half-life 2? 35 game of the year awards.

SageSavage
6th Jan 2008, 11:26
admittedly i like the first DX more, but blaming the "dumbing down" of the second game on "stupid console gamers" is just idiotic.I blame the publishers/developers for targeting the casual gamers. Console developers do target the casual gamers more often than the PC developers, this has something to do with the concept of consoles (family entertainment, easy setup, etc), I think. It has nothing to do with IQ or ADHS but it feels like dumbing it down when you remove complexity of a game or story.


i guess you never played half-life 2? 35 game of the year awards.http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=162842&site=pcz

gamer0004
6th Jan 2008, 11:39
Really nice... This proves it: DX is best game ever :P Not voted for by people who have only played Gears of War and Halo but guys who play for work...

About the console-thing: I agree that not ALL console-owners have bought a console because they like 'dumber' games, but a lot do. I have 3 friends who have an X360 (and another one is going to buy one), and they all play 'dumber' games. And they're definately not stupid (in fact, all 3 are estremely smart - most of their grades are 9/10 or 10/10. One even got a 12/10 for a Maths test :P). But they simply don't like games like DX or Morrowind. And that's why they own an Xbox.
Who began? Did everyone buy consoles and did the devs think that they liked dumber games, or did they buy consoles because of the dumber games...?
I mean, let's be honest - games on consoles are generally dumber than games on the PC. Not all of them, and it is perfectly possible to have a game like DX on a console, but it just doesn't happen often.

JulianP
6th Jan 2008, 14:34
Really nice... This proves it: DX is best game ever :P Not voted for by people who have only played Gears of War and Halo but guys who play for work...

About the console-thing: I agree that not ALL console-owners have bought a console because they like 'dumber' games, but a lot do. I have 3 friends who have an X360 (and another one is going to buy one), and they all play 'dumber' games. And they're definately not stupid (in fact, all 3 are estremely smart - most of their grades are 9/10 or 10/10. One even got a 12/10 for a Maths test :P). But they simply don't like games like DX or Morrowind. And that's why they own an Xbox.
Who began? Did everyone buy consoles and did the devs think that they liked dumber games, or did they buy consoles because of the dumber games...?
I mean, let's be honest - games on consoles are generally dumber than games on the PC. Not all of them, and it is perfectly possible to have a game like DX on a console, but it just doesn't happen often.
Yeah. These days that is pretty much a fact (sadly). :( And ayone who says otherwise... well, doesn't really know what they're talking about.

SomaMech
13th Jan 2008, 22:06
100% agree with the OP. The amount of side-content within the game for the player to discover and ponder is something DX3 NEEDS to bring over from DX1 in order to be anywhere near the masterpiece the original game was.

Reading books/newspapers/datacubes in DX1 was a pleasure to do. You simply rolled the crosshair over the item, and right clicked. When you were done looking at it, you looked away. (Makes sense yeah?). DX2 seemed to have a smaller amount of books etc, but once you found one, it was a bit of a hassle to read. The text was too large and you needed to scroll down to read the entire text. Why was this changed? It was clearly change in order to favour the use of a console controller.

The accumulation of the smaller mistakes such as the needless amount of interaction required with the book/newspaper/datacube reading-system that seriouslly decreased Invisible War's worthiness of the Deus Ex name.

Innomnemon
16th Jan 2008, 00:55
DX3 would not be better if it lost the profits from the "dumbed down" demographic. Whoever is funding DX3 is relying on console versions and easy-to-understand gameplay to ensure a positive gain, and therefore can afford a stronger attempt at our high standards. It's sad, but that's how all games work. You have to flunk some of the expectations in order to make a well-rounded game. What made DX1 a bit of an exception is that there must have been an extremely dedicated producer or two, such as Warren Spector and Harvey Smith - but both, unfortunately, are no longer attached to the development.

However, if any game can go against the grain and exceed expectations to a fantastic degree, Deus Ex can. It is definitely possible to appeal to kids/adults of all intelligences/disorders: DX1 was enjoyable both as a FPS and massive puzzle. There's plenty of middle ground. Remember: the more positive support this project gets, the less Eidos will have to rely on stealing demographics from the likes of Halo, CS, and future games. There is already a huge amount of pressure for the producers, both from gamers and investors, and those are the worst two directions to receive pressure from. I can only hope there is a creative genius left, and that he or she is not silenced by it. Delicate flower and whatnot. Judging by the teaser, there is a fair chance we'll be blown away - 1.618 feet, at least.

Zegano
18th Jan 2008, 01:15
Deus Ex 3 doesn't have to be 'in your face' intelligent. The original had a lot of intelligence in it, but only if you looked for it. The skill system was easy enough for gamers to get their heads around, it was a system that rpg games had used for years, and the augmentations weren't necessary, they just helped. Deus Ex 3 can appeal to both those who like "dumb" games and those of us who enjoy a mental challenge. Just look at DX1's first level. You could either slaughter everything on the island, the only distraction being finding a key (which was a task found in the original doom), or you could stealth your way around the back and build a path up out of boxes, or hack the security and turn it against them. It is this open ended nature that made DX great (one reason, anyway).