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Oroibahazopi
6th Dec 2013, 20:41
This could be heavily exploitable if done improperly but at the moment you have to die if you want to use a different loadout that is better suited for a given situation.

I would suggest that Humans need to use heal stations and Vampires need to enter a 10 second torpor to change abilities.

I don't think that it would be too imbalanced since vampires have most of the map control in the current meta anyway.

Maybe fix perks if that is an issue.

Shadyhaxx
6th Dec 2013, 22:36
Where are the heal stations? I've only found weapon reload stations.

Also, having to die to flip to a different toon has to remain he same. Or even take it away and make it so you cannot change at all. Either is fine for me. Don't let someone change mid life that is silly :)

Oroibahazopi
6th Dec 2013, 22:40
The heal stations are the reload places.

I wasn't really thinking of changing classes, just the gear on one specific class. It opens up a lot more strategy imo, being able to change up loadouts to suit the human setup and vice vera.

It may be imba in favour of vamps though, unless you could reduce the time it takes for humans to change loadouts at healing stations from the normal heal time. Although on the other hand humans benefit less from changing gear than vamps imo.

Psyonix_Corey
7th Dec 2013, 00:50
There's lots of exploits with it we're trying to avoid. It's possible giving it a lengthy "activation" time would solve most cases but we haven't seen a need to risk it yet.

Main problems:
- Swapping to healing abilities to heal up in a camp spot, then swapping back to "DPS" before the vampires show up
- Teammates being disabled swapping loadouts in a corner when you really need them to help kill the Reaver trying to maul you (or the Scout sniping you)
- Weird strategies developing like everyone going Sentinel, throwing long range bombs (coming soon to a Beta near you) then hiding, swapping to Brutes, etc.

Oroibahazopi
7th Dec 2013, 01:10
There's lots of exploits with it we're trying to avoid. It's possible giving it a lengthy "activation" time would solve most cases but we haven't seen a need to risk it yet.

Main problems:
- Swapping to healing abilities to heal up in a camp spot, then swapping back to "DPS" before the vampires show up
That's no worse than the current heal station cycling we have now. And that only really applies to alcs, if there were a cooldown on it then I don't see an issue. It's not as if lives are long lasting in this game anyway, it's that sometimes I'm in a situation where I'm thinking I should just suicide myself because I need another skill. Perks should probably be locked since that'll be where the exploitation would be.

- Teammates being disabled swapping loadouts in a corner when you really need them to help kill the Reaver trying to maul you (or the Scout sniping you)
That's part of the risk you have to take if you want to change gear, it should be risky. Wouldn't be any riskier than feeding or healing at a station.


- Weird strategies developing like everyone going Sentinel, throwing long range bombs (coming soon to a Beta near you) then hiding, swapping to Brutes, etc.
That's no worse that x4 sent bomb, then x4 sent bomb after cd. Or x4 poison gas or x4 savage pounce. I wasn't really meaning for total class changes though. And again you can totally change between lives anyway.

I guess it doesn't need to be there now, it's hard to get high skill level games going atm to even see if it would be worth it.

RainaAudron
7th Dec 2013, 01:24
Yeah, I agree with Corey here, it´s good as it is now I think.

Psyonix_Corey
7th Dec 2013, 02:58
Heal station cycling is intentional. It drives the combat around the map instead of allowing humans to camp in a single corner indefinitely.

Oroibahazopi
7th Dec 2013, 16:23
Yep. If you can only change loadout once per healing station like a heal then we have no changes. Say when you use the heal to change loadout you only get the benefit from the perk you had equipped previously.

I just feel as though if a very competitive level surfaces in this game, every kill will count and will be important. As will having the most optimal loadout for the current situation.

cmstache
7th Dec 2013, 16:44
That's why you need to pay attention to how you die and adjust accordingly. Also, sometimes you have to play your abilities different than how you want. For example, I was playing a match as a sentinel (as usual) on freeport, but they camped in the house on the sea by the giant crane and I couldn't get at them. So I walked in the hole on the roof and immediately hit take-off. They took some damage, and I flew off. Me, being the player I am, know there is no heal in that building for the humans, so I just had the reaver spam smoke while I jumped in and rinse and repeat. Is it how the ability supposed to be used? No. Did it work? I got kills and they came out eventually, so yes. Being able to change abilities negates the skill of a player having to adapt, which is important.

This whole scenario, in itself alone, brings a new question up: If the humans are stuck hiding where there is no heal and can hold of the vamps they should be applauded. How then, is it fair and balanced in ANY way that the vamps can just change abilities at the drop of a hat when it's impossible to do for the human team? If the vampire dies, and doesn't change the strategy that doesn't work, then he deserves to lose.

ZangarftheWrassler
7th Dec 2013, 22:03
I don't see the purpose or major need for loadout switching. Think about how many times you do it normally (I don't do it at all) and how it'll change the intended playstyle of the game. If you are that good that you never die, I guess it can be an inconvenience but of all the things to suggest, I think this would be a very low priority for everything else they can be working on in the game.

Oroibahazopi
7th Dec 2013, 22:12
If you had to die to switch weapons in q3 would you be happy?

As you unlock more gear you'll experience the desire to switch quite often. Prime example for me is switching between Tyrant's Jump and Charge abilities, if I choose jump because the humans are outside but then they turtle inside a building I have basically an unusable ability. Certainly not the most optimal ability for the situation.

ZangarftheWrassler
7th Dec 2013, 22:30
That's encouraging player strategy (they turtle because you are using an ability that can only be defended against by turtling.) Are you wanting every ability to be able to counter any strategy?

Comparing Quake 3 to Nosgoth doesn't feel adequate. Quake 3 doesn't use abilities, classes, or melee vs ranged and relies solely on weapons and brief powerups alone. They have different structures.

I am not trying to sound arrogant here but I honestly never felt the need to change my loadout. I could compensate for whatever my opponents chose to do as both a vampire and human with the loadout I chose before I even started the round. I didn't really play as the Tyrant though so that could be part of my lack of sympathizing. I don't think it's a bad idea, but I do agree with Corey that I would get pretty pissed if my teammate kept switching his loadouts during the round while the rest of us could use the support of an enemy push. It would just slow down gameplay which is not what Nosgoth was designed to be from what I can tell.

Actually all this typing, I am now reflecting on games with loadouts. You couldn't really change loadouts in CoD or Battlefield unless you died (from what I remember which could be completely wrong since I don't care to change my loadouts in most games often anyways...) Even LoL doesn't let you readily swap abilities mid-round either.

So I don't know. It probably isn't too difficult to implement and maybe they will give it a try, but if Corey is a good voice for the dev team, they seem to anticipate and may have even experience through player testing that it would have negative effects on the game experience.

Oroibahazopi
7th Dec 2013, 22:49
Well exactly, you can change loadouts in quake, rather simply acquiring more weapons, just by walking over to the spawn point. Don't play those kinds of games like CoD or BF, though when I have you usually can loot guns off of the floor. I played Tribes a lot where the ability to switch gear is characteristic of the game and definitely enriches the strategy.

I could easily argue that humans being able to totally nullify one of the tyrant's abilities just by walking inside isn't conducive to strategy also. And no I don't want every ability to counter everything, I want to be able to choose the right ability for the right occasion.

Right now you can suicide and then have a completely different class/loadout being able to change without dying doesn't change anything, other than you can stop an enemy team getting easy kills because you aren't properly equipped.

If your team mate lets you die because he's loadout switching (or healing like now), they're bad.

Honestly I don't think the game is being played at a level where this matters at the moment so w/e, I'm sure that this will come back during open beta or perhaps later though.

Oroibahazopi
9th Dec 2013, 21:15
After playing some relatively good matches today it really highlighted in my mind how important this is, it's so lame having to feed the other team because you don't have the right attack.

Case in point, 4 decent players camp in a small house, vampires basically have to suicide to get poison nade giving humans a few kills in an already tight match.

Oroibahazopi
13th Dec 2013, 00:30
It's so much fun spawning as a tyrant with jump to find the humans camped in a tiny house where you cannot affect them.

Oroibahazopi
19th Dec 2013, 00:45
QUADRA-POST

I really am getting sick of not being able to change between Jump and Charge when I play Tyrant, make it happen!

cmstache
19th Dec 2013, 02:06
Or you could use abilities other than how they are intended.

Oroibahazopi
19th Dec 2013, 02:09
You cannot use jump at all inside, you hit your head land and do no damage. By having jump in that scenario you lose 1/3 of your combat potential.

cmstache
19th Dec 2013, 02:18
So, you're telling me that:
1. You aren't getting your teammates to move them out for you.
2. Not using damage reduction abilities to draw fire for your team to move in and clear it for you.
3. Giving away your abilities. (If you wasted it and come out on the bottom, grats to the other team. If you come out on top, let them camp. You'll win.)
4. Not rewarding good set-ups, play styles, and choices from the other team.

Oroibahazopi
1st Feb 2014, 18:26
1. You're assuming that they all have abilities to force players outside. Some areas you're able to stay totally inside even if there's reaver choking haze used.
2. If you just run in with ignore pain on no one will even bother to shoot at you, so you just force your team to go 3v4 until ignore pain runs out.
3. I don't even understand what this means. I cannot see what the other team takes as abilities at the start. It's just rolling the dice at the start of the game which is bad for a supposedly competitive game.
4. If it takes time to switch abilities then yes it does reward countering specific setups.

Syst3mzero
1st Feb 2014, 20:38
humans.... scout to alch.... sex change? how long would you need to be operated on to accomplish gender reassignment?

Oroibahazopi
1st Feb 2014, 20:40
Just a stop at an ammo/life store should do it.

RiversOblivion
1st Feb 2014, 21:04
I don't like the idea of being able to switch mid-life.
Make your loadout work for you.
Deal.

Oroibahazopi
1st Feb 2014, 21:13
Oh mayn having to suicide in order to set up a counter to an enemy strat. Such esport.

Best counter = feed enemy team.

It may not seem bad now, unless you play tyrant, but many more gears and abilities are on the way.

RiversOblivion
1st Feb 2014, 21:24
I don't support suiciding or feeding either.
You make what you have work.

And I -do- play Tyrant.

Oroibahazopi
1st Feb 2014, 21:25
By not using the right skill in the right situation you are feeding. If you take Jump into an enclosed space you lose 1/3 of your combat potential.

RiversOblivion
1st Feb 2014, 21:30
You may lose -potential- but you don't lose all ability to fight and kill.

You're only feeding if you are running into a battle, knowing you're going to lose, and not trying to do something about it.

Oroibahazopi
1st Feb 2014, 21:33
You aren't optimal so you are going to feed. It's pretty simple.

If in DotA, q3, starcraft you lost 1/3 of your dps compared to your opponent you will lose unless your opponent is horrible.

And you can't rely on people being horrible to balance a game.

RiversOblivion
1st Feb 2014, 21:36
Not being optimal doesn't mean you're going to feed. It just means you have to work harder in order to NOT feed.

Oroibahazopi
1st Feb 2014, 21:39
Against 2 equally skilled players it's a guaranteed death sentence to not play optimally.

Why bother playing if you're not playing your hardest in the first place anyway?

RiversOblivion
1st Feb 2014, 21:40
Why bother playing?
I dunno, because games are -fun-, and maybe you're trying out something new?
Y'know, just an idea.

Oroibahazopi
1st Feb 2014, 21:42
I don't find feeding and being bad fun.

Korevas
2nd Feb 2014, 13:47
By not using the right skill in the right situation you are feeding. If you take Jump into an enclosed space you lose 1/3 of your combat potential.

I like it how it is. If the human team correctly responds to 4 jumping tyrants by taking the fight indoors, they shouldn't get punished by the vamps switching to poison gas reavers.

Oroibahazopi
2nd Feb 2014, 13:54
How is that getting punished? The humans can just walk outside lol, and if they went all alc for indoor spam they can also change.

It would help stop the mono-class "problem" that people seem to be talking about.

LOFO1993
2nd Feb 2014, 16:32
This is VERY open to exploits, and is completely unnecessary.


Oroi, I perfectly understand what you mean, but you should understand that part of the "balance" is preventing some things from being possible. A match is currently won after 30 kills, I don't really see how being able to change the loadout "only" when you die is such a restriction.

Part of the team-work is forcing everyone to choose its class also accordingly to what the others have. If everyone could have whatever he wants whenever he wants the game would change completely, with the risk of making it less team-based, which to me would be a very stupid move, and also opening it to a huge amount of new possible reasons of unbalances, to be re-ironed all over again and so on.

I think your problem here is giving for granted that you alone are meant to be able to face always and whatever happens what the whole other team does, and that's exactly the opposite of how the game works at the moment.


For a PvP and asymmetrical only game every change should be thought deeply, and can have huge consequences. The point of the game is that if the other team plays better than yours, you lose. Therefore balances meant to allow the single team members to counter whole enemy team's tactics are game-breaking on their own, let alone if they open to a new whole of new possible and unforeseeable exploits.

Oroibahazopi
2nd Feb 2014, 16:34
What exploits?

And as you say, the round ends after 30 kills so feeding the enemy team is bad.

LOFO1993
2nd Feb 2014, 16:47
The point is this is a team-based game, not just in the sense you play with other human players, but that you really need them to accomplish something all together.

Your suggestion would seriously weaken this aspect, both changing the game in its core and needing a re-thinking of many classes, abilities, values and so on, because it wouldn't be just ONE player changing its class at times, it would end with whole teams class-whoring, helped by the opportunity to mass-change their classes all together according to the situation and the tactics. Things would still more or less work for low-rank games, but high-rank matches would be completely changed, and thus would need to be re-balanced completely.

I mean that for how the game is made IT DOESN'T REQUIRE EVERY SINGLE PLAYER TO BE ABLE TO DO EVERYTHING.


If you choose the Tyrant at the start of the game you accept its limitations along with its advantages. If humans camp in a closed environment and you can't manege to take them out it means your team is not playing as good as the other, because one Reaver with Choking Haze and a Sentinel along with you would probably be enough to solve the things, without you need to concern for class-swapping.

Don't ask for radical game-changes only because sometimes you end up in bad teams and you would like to be able to do everything on your own. It's a big deal, and it would mean changing the game completely at its roots because you don't like how it's built now. Hope you realize that.

Oroibahazopi
2nd Feb 2014, 16:54
Making sure you have the right team comp for a given situation is a team thing. Even if you could change mid life you'd still not be able to solo an entire human team.

If anything being locked into a class and not being able to change, essentially turning the fight from a 4v4 into a 3.5v4, is anti team play.

It's nothing to do with who I play with, and again changing between tyrant and reaver wont let me solo 4 humans? I don't really get that argument.

It hardly changes the games roots as well, it just means you don't have to feed to change class. You know you can change your class after you die right?

LOFO1993
2nd Feb 2014, 17:04
You know you can change your class after you die right?

Yeah, and you have to give the other team one kill to be able to. That's why it would change things completely.

As I just wrote, but you didn't read or notice, the issue would not be because one player could have the chance to change its class once in a while, but because organized teams would start abusing it, making massive and tactical class-changes that would make the game very different from now.

You say "but they already can, they just have to die". Maybe you miss the point that changing classes AFTER you die makes it useless if your purpose is to exploit class-changing for winning in a high-level match. So, yes, being able to change class even without dying WOULD change the game, especially for well-prepared teams.


I'm not saying that changing it in this direction would be just "wrong", but it's definitively a big deal and it shouldn't be done just to solve a very petty annoying combination of events that happens when you don't coordinate well enough with your team.

As they say, the game isn't worth the candle.

Oroibahazopi
3rd Feb 2014, 17:17
You think it's good that you can be forced to feed or leave your team to 3v4 by the roll of a dice at the start of a match or after a wipe? I don't, it's anti competitive.

How would it be an exploit if it's available to everyone? I cannot see any way it could be exploited if there were sensible limits on it. For example it takes, what, 5 seconds to respawn after dying? So it takes 5 seconds of being totally stationary, all the while you can be shot at and killed, and afterwards you're your new class.

Actually I wasn't even pushing for a class change as I said earlier, I just wanted ability change.

cmstache
3rd Feb 2014, 17:30
Set-up in itself is a team skill. Not to mention that it's insanely easy to stand in a corner building and let the timer roll for a few seconds. Then you don't take into account that some abilities actually last longer than 5 seconds.

Oroibahazopi
3rd Feb 2014, 17:35
There is not set up if you cannot see, other than what class, what your opponent is using. And even then they could just wait for the timer to choose right at the last second.

So what if it's easy to stand in a corner, it means you are out of the fight for at least 5 seconds. And some abilities last 7 or even more, you wont be able to use the ability and then immediately change class without getting shot at or eaten. Have persistent things despawn, like trap, as when you die.

CoOkiedude
3rd Feb 2014, 23:15
I can see changing 1-2 skill perhaps. Like , before the match , much like you prepare your class loadouts in the armory, you can set a specific skill - or two depending on the limit- that you are allowed to swap to , during a "life". For example with a Tyrant , you start with Marathon Charge , but you have Jump prepared aswell, in the "extra" slot so that in case the humans are camping in an open area, you dont get completely slaughtered , engaging. But complete class swaps? I don't like it.

Oroibahazopi
3rd Feb 2014, 23:37
Right now I don't see the need for swapping a complete class if your team spawn with a decent comp, abilities should suffice. However things may change with the introduction of new abilities and classes.

SkippyMcDoogle
17th Feb 2014, 17:24
Say a tyrant uses jump and the humans turtle. If I were a human and I ran indoors to escape a jumping tyrant, I would switch to an ability to help me survive/defend inside. The tyrant switches to charge; have fun charging into a turret, or trap, or flame wall, or a bunch of alchs that can heal.

Allowing swaps mid-life will slow the game down and change to focus from strategy with what you have, to a rock, paper, scissors match.

Saecred-XIV
17th Feb 2014, 20:02
During early QA, having access to loadouts during life was being heavily exploited as a way to prevent giving kills to the other team by quickly changing loadouts.

Switching loadout (killing yourself upon loading the new) was removed to avoid exploits and we strongly feel that should it stay as is.

Also please keep in mind that the options available will only grow as more weapons/abilities/classes are introduced. Psyonix has been doing a very good job along with your feedback, and ours, to keep everything as balanced as we could with what is currently available in-game.

If you feel that you can't handle the current situation with your set loadout. Upon your death you're more than free to change it to another set or even switch classes to what you feel would fit best for the current situation.

Just imagine if you're in a match with two pre-made teams that could "LOADOUT switch" at any point they saw the other team setup a strategy and then attempt to counter it with their own "switch".. This would result in nothing but respawn wars until the game timed out and could kill any of the chaos of the current game's status.

I hope this helps out, even a bit!
-SXIV

Oroibahazopi
17th Feb 2014, 22:35
During early QA, having access to loadouts during life was being heavily exploited as a way to prevent giving kills to the other team by quickly changing loadouts.
How does changing class prevent kills? Unless you refill health and ammo on the switch which is stupid. It should require a visit to the ammo/health station or a cooldown and even then it should only give a normal health and ammo amount.


Also please keep in mind that the options available will only grow as more weapons/abilities/classes are introduced. Psyonix has been doing a very good job along with your feedback, and ours, to keep everything as balanced as we could with what is currently available in-game.
There will be more team comps which will only exasperate the situation. Meaning more rolling the dice at every spawn.


If you feel that you can't handle the current situation with your set loadout. Upon your death you're more than free to change it to another set or even switch classes to what you feel would fit best for the current situation.
Did you even read the posts? Feeding to get a loadout change is dumb and anti-competitive.


Just imagine if you're in a match with two pre-made teams that could "LOADOUT switch" at any point they saw the other team setup a strategy and then attempt to counter it with their own "switch".. This would result in nothing but respawn wars until the game timed out and could kill any of the chaos of the current game's status.
There's a spectrum of possibilities between no loadout switching and full health and ammo refill whenever you want. Former being anti-competitive and the latter being so retarded I cannot possibly see how it made it to QA.

Take Tribes:Ascend as an example, you can switch class and loadout whenever you want as long as you go to an inventory station. And guess what people don't just move in and out of inventories all match trying to counter the other teams setup.

Let me put this another way, take an ability like Jump. It can be hard countered by walking inside. Therefore Tyrants will probably never take Jump in high skill matches because they are likely to feed with it.

Zaenos
18th Feb 2014, 05:20
Being forced to compensate for your weaknesses is a massive element of gameplay, one that I feel makes the game much richer than constant 'counter-building' would.

You're talking as if having an ability in a non-optimal circumstance guarantees your death as long as your opponents are as good as you. This is kind of like a 'frictionless vacuum' sort of argument. In practice, as long as even one member of your team can disrupt the opponent's setup, you can create openings for others on the team. 'But that's still non-optimal', yes it is. And that's a good thing for the game as a whole. Image what it would be like if every house camp in the game was met with four Choking Hazes? (as if that doesn't happen enough already.)

It's not anti-competitive. It just means that instead of the skill being in 'counter-picking', it gravitates towards 'counter-playing'. Being able to compensate for weakness and use abilities in non-optimal situations is also skill, and I would argue that it is moreso than using an optimal strategy to its fullest. Your opponents suffer the same disadvantages you do. Exploit their weaknesses through how you and your team play, not how you equip. The problems you describe should only come up if your team as a whole is countered, which shouldn't happen at higher-level play where people know the value of diversity.

Another thing to keep in mind is that being unable to Jump indoors is not analogous to losing 1/3 of your DPS in DotA (and what you're suggesting would be analogous to being able to sell items back to the store for full-refund). The reason for this is the differences in the game's 'action economy' and distribution of damage. You cannot Jump at the same time as attacking, or at the same time as Shockwaving, so you're not losing 1/3 DPS, you're losing 1/3 of your options, and in fact much less because you have far more available to you than just using your skills. This game is very well designed in the sense that there is no uncounterable strategy against a well-balanced team. You, personally, just might not be the key at breaking the opponents current tactic. That's okay. You're passively countering them by discouraging another strategy they could be using.

cmstache
18th Feb 2014, 15:10
This probably the best explanation possible. The only reason a person wouldn't understand this point is it they were a selfish player and think "if I'm not doing good my team isn't doing well."

Particularly, the "passive" part. There have been times when I wanted to play a certain way but couldn't because of the way the team was set up. I like to choose my class, if possible, after the enemy. It just so happens they picked a set-up i didn't want to play with my preferred strategy against, so I chose something else. Did they know it? No. Were they helping their team? Yes, more than they could know.

Oroibahazopi
19th Feb 2014, 18:32
There is no counter picking in this game, the balance isn't rock paper scissors. Well as long as you stick to the decent classes, Hunter, Scout, Tyrant and Reaver.

I really don't get how you can think that being forced to feed is good for gameplay, I just don't get it at all. If a human team decide to house camp because the opponent have a sentinel or jump tyrant focused team comp, they are guaranteed to get a 4 man wipe. Even if the vampires see that they cannot win in advance, they either feed or avoid combat for the rest of the match, really good spectator sport there.

However under my scheme the vampires would see the camp then could go somewhere, spend 5-20 seconds changing abilities to better suit the situation somewhere safe while the humans gain valuable time to heal or just stall the match because they're at a points advantage. (You don't camp to get kills while behind, vamps can just hide in places humans can never reach)

It'd take 5-20 seconds, you'd not heal any extra health or gain ammo other than if it was implemented that Humans needed healing stations to switch class they'd get a normal heal and an ammo refill.

cmstache
19th Feb 2014, 18:49
First off, the sentinels and alchs are fine classes. Just because you don't know how to use them effectively doesn't mean they aren't useful. Sentinels are still useful indoors, and alchs are still useful vs sentinels (just not the way most people use them). Which brings up my next point, no one FORCED you to feed any kills. Sure, you might only get 1 kill instead of 3, or maybe 2 instead of 4. But, that doesn't mean you need to feed a kill. Play it out, then change when you die. This goes back to that "If I'm not doing good my team isn't doing well." mentality I mentioned in my previous post. Believe it or not, you can still use skills in ways they weren't designed for the situation if needed.

Or here's a thought, don't run jump on the start. Wait until you know how the team is playing. Start generic then specialize later.

P.S. I use sentinels with people camping indoors almost as effectively as outdoors. If anything indoors provides them more more cover for an approach.

EDIT: In the unlikely scenario this does enter play, I'd like to see it only be used at healing stations, limited to once per player per round, and it forfeits that healing station for 2 minutes, foregoing any healing and ammo gain. (use ammo %s to transfer between classes for clip/remaining) Otherwise it, punishes people who are smart with their choices at spawn.

Oroibahazopi
19th Feb 2014, 19:07
Exactly my earlier point, Tyrants will never use Jump in competitive matches since it's too risky. And yes you aren't being forced to feed, the other option is just to wait all match.

Also all 8 players cannot wait to see how the other team is playing since the game would never start.

cmstache
19th Feb 2014, 20:04
If all 4 players wait then it defaults to the last set-up used. At that point it's guesswork for both teams. Still competitive since it applies for both teams.