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gamer0004
3rd Dec 2007, 14:41
At first I didn't really like the trailer, but after a while I found out that there was quite a lot of things in there (augmented people enter from the back).
Anyway, I really hope this one is going to be as good as part I or at least better than DX:IW. I posted this on another forum, but I don't think anyone will notice it between all the gayporn...

My thoughts:

The music was very important. I listen to it even when I’m not playing the game (I've downloaded it somewhere). Deus Ex proved that music/sound is at least as important as the graphics. There is one part of DX:IW (deus ex: invisible war, part II) I liked: Heron's loft. That was as good as some of the parts in DX. The music’s right and it's a fun level to play.
(There should be a "please" for every sentence :P)

-Come up with a very good storyline, and refer to lots of things through e-mails and newspapers and such that don't directly have something to do with the main story. In real life the newspapers aren't just full of, eh, something like global warming. People talk about many things, and a lot of it is irrelevant.

-Make sure the music and sound are very good and not in the background like in IW.

-Let every NPC talk to each other, about relevant things and irrelevant things, as they did in DX

-Make sure the levels are big, like in DX. That’s way more important than good textures.

-Do NOT (or maybe for XBOX 360 and PS3, I’m counting on it that it will come to PC too) simplify the game. In DX:IW you only had to pick up the key for a door and you could open it. In DX you had to equip the key ring and then you could open the door.
You might think it doesn’t make a difference, but it does! This way you’re way more drawn into the game. Same thing for keypads. In DX:IW I just clicked the right-mouse button at every keypad I saw. Sometimes it opened, sometimes it didn’t. It was like opening a door or something. In DX you had looked for data cubes and then typed in some codes, because you didn’t always knew which one was right. When the coded worked you felt quite satisfied.

-If you make it a prequel (and it looks like it as in the trailer the year 2027 occurs), make it a bit convincing. The world in Deus Ex looked quite a lot like our world like it is today. Augmented people in 2027? And so common that they actually have signs for them (enter from the back, not welcome)? I’d say you could better choose 2035 or 2040.
Also, on planetdeusex (http://forumplanet.gamespy.com/planetdeusex/) you can find LOTS of information and idea’s. The whole game has been examined, I don’t think you can find more info about it somewhere else.

-Make sure the game is quite bug free (do not make it a second Gothic 3 or something). Deus ex was quite good.

-Make sure there are multiple ways to reach the goal. And not just by choosing a general path, but that you’ll have to choose how you handle a situation every time, like in DX.
Am I going to take out the guard? And if I do, am I going to kill him or knock him out?
Or am I going to evade him?
Am I going to look for a alternative path? And when I do, am I going to swim (and have to invest some skill points in swimming, or lose some health), or am I going to hack a computer so the turret doesn’t shoot me? Or am I going to destroy the turret?
This kind of options. In DX:IW there were SOME options, but not many. And often it was most handy to shoot every guard in sight (and it wasn’t in DX). The bribing was cool though.
Make sure every option is equally attractive. Make sure the weapons are balanced too. The rocket launcher in DX:IW didn’t even kill (some) enemies in one shot!

-Make sure the main character and all other characters are interesting. I didn’t care for Alex Denton, he was unbelievably lame. Tong was stupid in DX:IW too. JCDenton was great in DX, and so were Gunther Hermann, Anna Navarre, Bob Page, Walton Simons and so on, even when they were your opponents.

-Make sure the dialogs are good. In DX they were great, in DX:IW they were not.

-Make sue the story line is good! In Deus Ex it was really good. Why? I think because the all the conspiracies. All the talk about conspiracies which you don’t believe at first (as in the real world), but after a while they turn out to be true. In DX:IW there was this story of the Order and WTO working together, but I didn’t really care. And when pequods and queequeggs (I don’t know how it’s spelled) turned out to be of the same company, that sucked.
I mean, the Order and the WTO, opponents of each other, turn out to be the same organization, and pequods and queequeggs, opponents of each other, turn out to be the same organization too? Hmm…
In DX you couldn’t pick the side you wanted to be. You wasn’t able to stay with UNATCO, but the levels and the story line were better because of that. In DX:IW you could choose your organizations, but every level had to be able to be played with all the organizations, which wasn’t good for the realism of the game.

-The AI must be improved (I heard FEAR AI somewhere, and indeed it was very good for combat, but you need some more). Although the bad AI in DX makes it possible to finish the game without inventory items, it is quite lame. You can throw a crate on the head of an enemy and then run away, past a corner, and he won’t follow you (because you’re out of sight). You can repeat it like 8 times (after that he’s dead), he gets back to his patrol route every time.
The enemy should arrange things like “You wait here, I follow him”, they should react to different circumstances, and there should be officers who have the command. They patrol the whole area so they’ll notice any dead bodies. When the officer doesn’t come past patrolling soldiers that’s suspicious so they’ll sound an alarm or something like that.

-Make sure the construction of the levels is realistic. In DX it was, in DX:IW it wasn’t. I mean, a greenhouse protected by security bots, tripwires and turrets (Nassif greenhouse, DX:IW)? You could use Google Earth for a realistic city plan.

-UNATCO HQ in New York didn’t exist in 2027-2045 (or something like that), so don’t use it in the game… You should play Deus Ex a few times (if you haven’t done it yet). I finished the game at least 5 times and I still discover new things.

-The last thing I want to say is that the DX-inventory must come back.

By the way, what's about all the Da Vinci stuff? You can refer to him in the game, but not too much. Deus Ex was a game of modern science.

Please make this one worthy of Deus Ex!

Sorry for my bad English, I'm Dutch.

EDIT: I'd like to add this:
-Please don't make the game 'clean' as DX:IW. Sometimes (especially in Caïro), it looked moe like a fairytale than a sci-fi game. In DX people walked around in ragged, dirty clothes. In DX:IW even the people in the slums walked in perfectly clean brand new clothes. Same for the environment.
EDIT #2: -Lockpicks AND multitools were a very nice combination. Multitools to open doors (with mechanical locks) was a bit... weird.
-Health system (localized damage) was great.

ThatDeadDude
3rd Dec 2007, 16:44
Augmented people in 2027?

Under my understanding of the technology, it's actually fairly likely. Pretty much all of the mechanical stuff already exists (obviously I'm ignoring cloaking and energy shields and all that); the main focus of study now is the human-machine interface. There've been some promising results in animal trials there, the main issue is that it takes extensive training, and I have no idea what sort of control "resolution," for lack of a better word, is possible.

gamer0004
3rd Dec 2007, 17:38
Under my understanding of the technology, it's actually fairly likely. Pretty much all of the mechanical stuff already exists (obviously I'm ignoring cloaking and energy shields and all that); the main focus of study now is the human-machine interface. There've been some promising results in animal trials there, the main issue is that it takes extensive training, and I have no idea what sort of control "resolution," for lack of a better word, is possible.

Of course there's a lot surgeons can do nowadays. Fake legs and arms and such. The point is that I dont't think they'll use augmentations to make humans better. So they're better at Football or something. It definately won't be so wide-spread that there will be special notes for augmented people.
There are only two types of men to whom augmenations are usefull: disabled people and agents like J.C. Denton. There won't many of them (especially the last), and there's nobody who hangs up signs for disabled so they'll enter form the back, because there's strife between them and the non-augmented people...

However, the idea is cool. But after 2052. In DX augmented people were rare, so it would take another 20 years or so before it got quite common.

ThatDeadDude
3rd Dec 2007, 20:05
I dunno, I reckon it'd be cool if they made self improvement-type augmentations available for general use in the future. I'd pay for it :cool:.

But you do have a good point. I didn't think about the fact of how rare they still were in DX1. The continuity would be a bit messed up if there were now lots before then...

gamer0004
3rd Dec 2007, 20:44
I'd like to have some augs too! (especially the cloak would be usefull :P)

JSDonald
4th Dec 2007, 05:32
Excellent poitns gamer #4 :) As far the story, how much of the story do you think has already been written?

gamer0004
4th Dec 2007, 13:59
A lot I guess... I think developers will write the story before they do something else (otherwise you'd build maps which don't make sense), but of course they can still add stuff and improve it afterwards.

SOCAR
5th Dec 2007, 00:54
Well ... no offence but points are written as for morons, not for corporate programmers, designers and developers. You really think such thing would be usefull in any way to EIDOS DT?



In DX augmented people were rare

No to so rare. For ex. you think that chick at Bar in HK:NY was some UNATCO operative before she get behind bar, polishing glass? I got vague recall on Jaime Reies saying on the early beging something about that nowadays he don't have much job to do (smth like: "If they would pay me penny for every actuator Ive fixed...". Sugests that he did that alot in his days)


The continuity would be a bit messed up if there were now lots before then...

Unless its prequel. Imagine situation (in prequel) in which augmented people are born in labs and treaten as slaves. As long as some uprising/smth stops such procedures and heavy-augs are limited for civilian usage. Also the augmented-humans (not born as augmented) could have some serious problems adapting the heavy-augs so after massive augmenting it would be rejected by society, and only few survived the augmenting procedure (to 2057).

gamer0004
5th Dec 2007, 16:41
Well ... no offence but points are written as for morons, not for corporate programmers, designers and developers. You really think such thing would be usefull in any way to EIDOS DT?


No to so rare. For ex. you think that chick at Bar in HK:NY was some UNATCO operative before she get behind bar, polishing glass? I got vague recall on Jaime Reies saying on the early beging something about that nowadays he don't have much job to do (smth like: "If they would pay me penny for every actuator Ive fixed...". Sugests that he did that alot in his days)


I know it's a bit like"written for morons", but I'm Dutch so there aren't many ways I can write things in English. And I'm really afraid they're going to mess up the game. Yes, I think the "feedback" on DX and DX:IW is useful. I have no idea what they've done so far, but all the post on what they should do and shouldn't do may be useful, if they haven't thought about it.
The devs of DX:IW wouldn't have made their mistakes if they thought about all these things ;).

About Jaime Reyes: he said:
"I just fixed Gunther's knee in fact. I feel more like a mechanic than a docter sometimes" or something like that. He was talking about Gunther (and maybe Anna Navarre).
Besides that, I think I read somewhere that Jaime had only been with UNATCO for a short time before J.C. Denton joined.

SOCAR
5th Dec 2007, 19:46
but all the post on what they should do and shouldn't do may be useful

True, but in my opinion as long as they contain concrete suggestions.
When you write


-Make sure the game is quite bug free

You probably got no idea how the development process and testing phase looks like. It's not only "playing" game with difrent test scenarios, but deep and time-consuming process. Everyone want that their product would be bug free.



-Make sure there are multiple ways to reach the goal

Well, kind a obvious thing there.



-Make sure the main character and all other characters are interesting. I didn’t care for Alex Denton, he was unbelievably lame. Tong was stupid in DX:IW too. JCDenton was great in DX, and so were Gunther Hermann, Anna Navarre, Bob Page, Walton Simons and so on, even when they were your opponents.

This is one of best example of what I have on mind before. you wrote "interesting". It would be more usefull if you would wrote what you think about "interesting character". How it could look, behave, act. Or What you mean under "interesting" term. Also the "lame Tong" or "Great Gunther" does't bring any help to developers. Because the "lame/great" is own opinion of every player. You should define what you found great or lame in those characters etc etc.

Hope you get my point. Rewriting your suggestions with really specific details, which I suggested you above meaby would be considered by DX DT.



"I just fixed Gunther's knee in fact. I feel more like a mechanic than a docter sometimes" or something like that. He was talking about Gunther (and maybe Anna Navarre).

Iam pretty sure about Jaime saing the "If I get a dime for repairing every actuator" etc etc in game. When I got some free time ([next?] xmas) and install DX1 Ill try to provide snapshot of it.

gamer0004
6th Dec 2007, 18:58
True, but in my opinion as long as they contain concrete suggestions.
When you write

You probably got no idea how the development process and testing phase looks like. It's not only "playing" game with difrent test scenarios, but deep and time-consuming process. Everyone want that their product would be bug free.


Well, kind a obvious thing there.


This is one of best example of what I have on mind before. you wrote "interesting". It would be more usefull if you would wrote what you think about "interesting character". How it could look, behave, act. Or What you mean under "interesting" term. Also the "lame Tong" or "Great Gunther" does't bring any help to developers. Because the "lame/great" is own opinion of every player. You should define what you found great or lame in those characters etc etc.

Hope you get my point. Rewriting your suggestions with really specific details, which I suggested you above meaby would be considered by DX DT.


Iam pretty sure about Jaime saing the "If I get a dime for repairing every actuator" etc etc in game. When I got some free time ([next?] xmas) and install DX1 Ill try to provide snapshot of it.

I get it.
I'm gonna give it a try.
Alex Denton wasn't cool because he was really... standard. He had nothing special, he was a bit boring. J.C. Denton was cool, because he was a bit of an bad-ass, but he was smart too, although he "wasn't big into books" (NYC, don't know exactually what mission). He wasn't a nerd. Alex Denton... Because he had to be able to both a boy AND a girl, he wasn't really a boy nor a girl in the way he acted and talked.
I liked the other graduates, though. Leo Jankowski for instance. Big ego, and he becoming an Omar was really like him. Klara Sparks was nice too. But you didn't get to know her very well.
Billy Adams could've been better. Or -to be more accurate- the relationship between her and Alex Denton. They're best friends and she calls upon Alex to help her. The first time I talked to Paul Denton I had no affection to him at all. But after a while (when you started to know him better) he actually felt like your (JC's) brother. In DX:IW there was just too little time to feel any affection to other characters.
Gunther was cool because he was rather excentric. Yes, he had a ridiulous German accent, but he was a real killer. Way different than for example Paul Denton. And he was a mech, and mechs were more bloodthirsty than nanao-augmentated agents (I think you can read somewhere on Planet deus ex forum why), and they worked that out very good. In DX:IW the characters were less different.
And why Tong was lame was because of what he said. I liked him in DX, but I thought that his ideas were so unreasonable... Same goes for J.C. Denton.
The first time I finished DX I merged with Helios. I thought that would make sure the world would be ruled by an unprejudiced leader. But in DX:IW they wanted to let everyone think the same way (well, it does come down to that). What the hell? I didn't want that the first time I finished the game :P
And ehm, the "obvious" thing (multiple ways...) wasn't so obvious in DX:IW...


I know the bug process is a pain in the ass. But it is really important. It doesn't have to be bugfree (that's impossible anyway), but it should be at least playable. They shouldn't rush the game too much. That's what I meant.

About the Jaime Reyes conversation, he said: "Just fixed Gunther's knee, in fact. A sticky actuator. So far I feel moe like a mechanic than a docter." I'm still playing the game so I didn't have to install it ;)
Go and check it out for yourself if you don't believe me.

Xtremist022
13th Oct 2008, 02:07
I get it.
I'm gonna give it a try.
Alex Denton wasn't cool because he was really... standard. He had nothing special, he was a bit boring. J.C. Denton was cool, because he was a bit of an bad-ass, but he was smart too, although he "wasn't big into books" (NYC, don't know exactually what mission). He wasn't a nerd. Alex Denton... Because he had to be able to both a boy AND a girl, he wasn't really a boy nor a girl in the way he acted and talked.
I liked the other graduates, though. Leo Jankowski for instance. Big ego, and he becoming an Omar was really like him. Klara Sparks was nice too. But you didn't get to know her very well.
Billy Adams could've been better. Or -to be more accurate- the relationship between her and Alex Denton. They're best friends and she calls upon Alex to help her. The first time I talked to Paul Denton I had no affection to him at all. But after a while (when you started to know him better) he actually felt like your (JC's) brother. In DX:IW there was just too little time to feel any affection to other characters.
Gunther was cool because he was rather excentric. Yes, he had a ridiulous German accent, but he was a real killer. Way different than for example Paul Denton. And he was a mech, and mechs were more bloodthirsty than nanao-augmentated agents (I think you can read somewhere on Planet deus ex forum why), and they worked that out very good. In DX:IW the characters were less different.
And why Tong was lame was because of what he said. I liked him in DX, but I thought that his ideas were so unreasonable... Same goes for J.C. Denton.
The first time I finished DX I merged with Helios. I thought that would make sure the world would be ruled by an unprejudiced leader. But in DX:IW they wanted to let everyone think the same way (well, it does come down to that). What the hell? I didn't want that the first time I finished the game :P
And ehm, the "obvious" thing (multiple ways...) wasn't so obvious in DX:IW...


I know the bug process is a pain in the ass. But it is really important. It doesn't have to be bugfree (that's impossible anyway), but it should be at least playable. They shouldn't rush the game too much. That's what I meant.

About the Jaime Reyes conversation, he said: "Just fixed Gunther's knee, in fact. A sticky actuator. So far I feel moe like a mechanic than a docter." I'm still playing the game so I didn't have to install it ;)
Go and check it out for yourself if you don't believe me.

Thank you for your initial post. I'm glad i'm not the only one that feels the same way about Deus Ex and the let-down of Invisible War. I would rather think of IW as a separate game. In Deus Ex, I believe the aspect that had the greatest impact was that the world seemed alive around you. (Furthermore, I'm glad I wasn't the only one disappointed that I couldn't type the numbers in to the keypads...) Yes JC was augmented, but he seemed to really live and be part of that world. We could relate because that world was just like ours, the locations, the diversity of the people, the problems we face. I used to bring plants, flags, furniture and other little decorations into JC's office in UNATCO and arrange them, (often taking extensive amounts of time.....anyway...) unfortunately they went back to were they were before when the level changed, but still- that's how realistic the feel was.

gamer0004
16th Oct 2008, 13:57
Yes, and now - they're doing it again. As I stated before, I thought that:
"-If you make it a prequel (and it looks like it as in the trailer the year 2027 occurs), make it a bit convincing. The world in Deus Ex looked quite a lot like our world like it is today. Augmented people in 2027? And so common that they actually have signs for them (enter from the back, not welcome)? I’d say you could better choose 2035 or 2040."

I mean, right now we have clothes that are both funcional and easy to produce and, for us, normal looking. In DX they had them as well. But the "DX" 3 fasion? 2008: normal, 2027: completely weird, 2052: nothing happend people, move along; normal clothes again. Then 2072: normal. It's a very very serious error in the DX continuity.

deus ex fan
17th Oct 2008, 22:03
Yes, and now - they're doing it again. As I stated before, I thought that:
"-If you make it a prequel (and it looks like it as in the trailer the year 2027 occurs), make it a bit convincing. The world in Deus Ex looked quite a lot like our world like it is today. Augmented people in 2027? And so common that they actually have signs for them (enter from the back, not welcome)? I’d say you could better choose 2035 or 2040."

I mean, right now we have clothes that are both funcional and easy to produce and, for us, normal looking. In DX they had them as well. But the "DX" 3 fasion? 2008: normal, 2027: completely weird, 2052: nothing happend people, move along; normal clothes again. Then 2072: normal. It's a very very serious error in the DX continuity.

i agree with this opinion.Deus Ex universe must follow fashion in order

lets see fashion in every deus ex version.......

(2008:we wear normal clothes)

2027-deus ex 3:back to 16th century wearing Renaissance clothes?and why especially Renaissance?

2050-deus ex:back to normal clothes(nowadays clothes at 2050's)?

2072-dx invisible war:this fashion approach mostly(and probably very realistic)this date setting.I cant think 2070's people wearing clothes of 2008......

and finally,deus ex 3 fashion is something that fit really good with background of the game.I dont see something irregular to this choice.Cyberpunk/Renaissance is a good combination:scratch:

Abram730
18th Oct 2008, 10:27
i agree with this opinion.Deus Ex universe must follow fashion in order

lets see fashion in every deus ex version.......

(2008:we wear normal clothes)

2027-deus ex 3:back to 16th century wearing Renaissance clothes?and why especially Renaissance?

2050-deus ex:back to normal clothes(nowadays clothes at 2050's)?

2072-dx invisible war:this fashion approach mostly(and probably very realistic)this date setting.I cant think 2070's people wearing clothes of 2008......

and finally,deus ex 3 fashion is something that fit really good with background of the game.I dont see something irregular to this choice.Cyberpunk/Renaissance is a good combination:scratch:

fashion changes as in bell bottoms come back in style every now and then...

is it Renaissance clothes? or Neo-Renaissance or Neo-Victorian? Perhaps a cultural revival in the upper classes rising out of financial inequity. A we deserve to live above them because they are savages. We a cultured. a sort of Victorian revival where people act like Freud never happened.. that they no longer talk about their feelings. That they would return to logic and drop emotions. clothing manufactures then follow suit with Neo-Victorian/Neo-Renaissance clothes.

all this talk of puffy shirts reminded me of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSDAmoMBykA
:lmao:


Also on another note.
I keep reading people saying "augmentations in 2027?" That's impossible and things along that line.

How about they are being tested now and working now in 2008.
:rasp:
How this started
A monkey was about to do something that would make history and change the lives of those involved
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-cpcoIJbOU
Next experiment
Monkey's brain controls robotic arm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxIgdOlT2cY
Jesse Sullivan with the Bionic Arm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aixlFdZaOc
DARPA's Bionic Arm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJg9igTnjIo
Time for Legs
the brain activity of a monkey has been used to control the real-time walking patterns of a robot halfway around the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSaBOd4pQpM

What is missing?
better robot muscles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liicZ_pvGiQ
ALCOHOL-POWERED MUSCLES 100x the strength of human muscles now functional.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d1e_ys15UI

So imagine a man bench pressing 250 pounds. Now imagine alcohol powered muscles of that size benching 25,000 pounds or more.:eek:

You have a reason for in game drinking!!!:cool:
:rasp:

MrP
18th Oct 2008, 10:56
After firing up DX:IW again last night I have one more thing to add to this list...

Please get some decent voice actors on board.

MagnumJoe
18th Oct 2008, 14:11
To people who say:"You don't have to write:'make sure there are multiple ways to reach a goal', it's obvious."

No i believe it isn't! Because that's the problem that happened in IW: there were multiple ways, but in an unprofessional way! It seemed like they had only one way on their mind, but have put the other ways for us just to shut up :lol:

And so to all the parameters of the game! The voicing, the levels, everything: only one item in each category was made good, and the others suck. It seemed like they didn't care about the game!

So i guess, yes, we have to stress, again and again, about the points mentioned above.

Also, to make a game cool, it's not about taste, it's about how much you give into it. And i think, that the problem in IW, wasn't in opinions about how to make a game, but it was in the way opinions were considered in the game: nothing was considered: they just did it, whatever the way they did, to just get a DX2 on the market and that's it.

They only had to put a lot of work in it, because it had to be at least close to DX, so it had to carry a bit of the complexity and sophistication. But i still think, that they didn't do it passionately.

DX3
18th Oct 2008, 14:31
I was thinking seeing an alien grey in the released PC Zone issue maybe A.J will be crossed with alien and his own DNA to create the ultimate source that is J.C.
Maybe it has nothing to with the story but it crossed my mind for a while.