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View Full Version : One highly skeptical fan with a small spark of hope (long read pos. series spoilers)



Nerdralus
5th Dec 2013, 06:30
I'm new here, hello everyone.

I've been a huge Legacy of Kain fan, despite all my worries about this game even existing, just the pure fact that it's another game in that universe still stirs that long gone giddy LoK fan in me, the Nostalgia experiencing the grand storyline. Now let me get this clear I'm actually pretty forgiving. I love all the series. I even love Blood Omen 2 I think it's quite fun, possibly even more fun than other entries when it comes to gameplay, BO2 dropped the ball on storyline and art style.

Let me lay my negative thoughts on the table first. This applies to a sequel of any kind not just Nosgoth so bare with me. Since Amy Henning left the series, since Tony Jay died (and someone else as well name escapes me at the moment from the dev team) I have long since closed the door on the series and HOPED Eidos never resurrected it. Because without Dyack (Blood Omen/Silicon Knights RIP) or Henning (Soul Reaver Arc) masterful story telling. I feel and still feel no one else is going to be able to truly capture this series spark that made it my favorite series. While I greatly wanted to see Kains quest tied up and Vorador plot hole explained, I felt it best left alone. When Square Enix got the rights to it by acquiring Eidos and thus CD this even furthered my resolve. Not that SE I think is bad, but their typical game style is completely opposite from what I expect from a LoK game. I even had other fears.. it's been so long how can we be sure if another game that continued the storyline emerged that you could even get Simon Templeman back to voice Kain? Lets be clear here. HE IS KAIN and anyone else in his place would ruin the series period. There is NO debate there. He isn't getting any younger himself. Any LoK game that ever involves Kain if you can't get Simon.. then you might as well throw the idea in the trash. Period. I also feared for a cash in of trying to bring Raziel back into the series and tarnish the tear jerking end that Amy gave his storyline arc. I hope for anyone that would pick up this series ever would leave him out of it for good. His tale is OVER.

Then I see this Nosgoth game appear.. Multiplayer game? Not even made by Crystal Dynamics at all WTF?! I see the art style.. the vampire models completely don't look like the style set forth by original BO and SR Series. That right there raises some very big red flags. I have reports from other fans on other forums that devs have already had to be corrected on old lore/history.. more red flags. I'm sorry but I just can't help but have serious doubts for this game being true in some form to the rest of the series and not just being slapped with the series namesake to get some extra hype for it.

Now I did say I had a small spark of hope right. Well having it take place in the timeline of Soul Reaver 1's future does put it safely beyond many key plot holes.. (though you still have to be careful and true to lore that is there still there is a very intricate history tied up there even with Soul Reaver 1) which allows it to do its own thing without screwing things up and if it doesn't involve any of the key players of past LoK games, just a new collection of Humans and Fledgling Vampires that too will help it stand on its own.

Also being a pure multiplayer game probably means it's not really storyline heavy and thus give it less room to contradict previous entries. I do love playing some multiplayer games. I play TF2 and Hearthstone, WoW..etc. and I enjoy them a lot. It would be nice to get a touch of nostalgia being back in the world of Nosgoth. (As long as the game feels like Nosgoth, the music, the ART STYLE, the mood) As long as it isn't pay to win and is fun like say TF2 is then I'm all for it.

I'm willing to give this game a good honest chance to prove itself. Be nice if I get into a beta at some point for it. Though even if this game does pass the test I still have no desire to see another dev team do a single player story entry to the series. NO ONE can do series justice as Amy Henning did... :scratch:

JanusDominus
5th Dec 2013, 06:43
I see the art style.. the vampire models completely don't look like the style set forth by original BO and SR SeriesBO1 and SR series had completely different art styles. Yes, SR2 tried to incorporate as much stuff from BO1 as possible, it was still its own thing. And I strongly disagree with BO2 dropping the ball on the art style - it was different, yeah, but it was awesome. Besides, this game takes place in previously unseen era of Nosgoth's history.
I'm sorry but I just can't help but have serious doubts for this game being true in some form to the rest of the series and not just being slapped with the series namesake to get some extra hype for it.Read the blog, it has backstory for the game posted now and then. They do try their best to tie it in.
Well having it take place in the timeline of Soul Reaver 1's future does put it safely beyond many key plot holesIt's not SR1 future, it's after SR1's intro - IE Raziel's execution - but before SR1 itself.
if it doesn't involve any of the key players of past LoK games, just a new collection of Humans and Fledgling Vampires that too will help it stand on its own.Again, read the blog. It doesn't involve Kain, Raziel or any of the Guardians.
I'm willing to give this game a good honest chance to prove itself. Be nice if I get into a beta at some point for it. Though even if this game does pass the test I still have no desire to see another dev team do a single player story entry to the series. NO ONE can do series justice as Amy Henning did... Do approach it with open mind. I was a big skeptic myself.
As for doing the series justice, I wouldn't have been so quick to dismiss another dev.

Nerdralus
5th Dec 2013, 06:55
Don't get me wrong I don't think the graphics of BO2 were bad I just don't think they were LoK. In fact they were recycled and tweaked graphics from another game. So they may have been "cool" but they certainly weren't LOK. CD Soul Reaver team tried hard to make the characters greatly resemble their Blood Omen selves in higher quality. They did a very good job recreating Moebius, Vorador, Malek but Blood Omen 2 character models were vastly different.

Blood Omen http://v023o.popscreen.com/eGk5bGpiMTI=_o_legacy-of-kain-blood-omen-walkthrough-10---le-manoir-de-.jpg
Soul Reaver 2http://lparchive.org/Legacy-of-Kain-Blood-Omen/Update%2017/vorador-1.jpg

Soul Reaver dev team did an outstanding job. But WTF is that BO2 Vorador....

Blood Omen 2 http://www.nosgoth.net/BO2/dialogue/BO0004000.jpg

The BO2 team was too lazy to bother to match things up. Don't get me started on Kain.... It's the little things that can please or alienate the fans.

Nerdralus
5th Dec 2013, 07:06
But this right here.... Raziel's clan in this Nosgoth are heavily evolved and have wings. This would suggest that the evolution of his fledglings has progressed quite a bit, Turel was right behind Raziel as far as Kain's Gift distribution the Turelim should be long into evolution as well but look

Real Turelim
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120826114613/legacyofkain/images/4/4c/SR1-Enemies-Turelim-Fledgling.jpg

Nosgoth Turelim
http://i.imgur.com/r6RbB57.jpg


They could have at least did something with the ears. Even if they weren't as evolved as we see when Raziel encounters that Turelim, they should obviously be heading that way. This guy above looks more like a spawn of Dumah or something lol. Its the Turelim trademark those damn ears.

Vampmaster
5th Dec 2013, 10:38
You should take a look at the vampire redesign thread:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7298

Most of us agree about the Turelim's ears, but there are no places in the previous games where a Dumahim was bigger than a Turelim. I mean Dumah was bigger than the Turelim, but so were all the other clan leaders.

The current explanation is that the vampires we've seen so far are fledglings and the adults aren't implemented yet. However IMO, even though they aren't devolved yet they should at least have a few vampire traits like in BO2.

BzDemon
5th Dec 2013, 16:26
Hey guys and gals. :wave:

Lok Is a series I will never forget. Which introduced me into a world of gaming that was much more than FPS,RPG,and MMo's. That being said, I love it. Not just the vast story between all the characters, and the complex thought that went into the paradox element of the whole series. When My Ps2 finally broke down I was..upset. But on to why I'm posting...

In Soul Reaver...during the first 15 -30 min into the game you find out that centuries or so have past. Now the further I read into Nosgoth...I'm trying to figure out where exactly during the time line this is...to have a better feel for what the characters of Dumas, Turel and Raziel's clan should look like. In the announcement trailer Bill Becham, Design Director states that it takes place after the event's that kick off in Soul Reaver. We need to keep in mind...that after Raziel was 'ended' by kain. His clan was wiped off the face of the planet. But here it says 'some of the few surviving members. Which through out the entire SR game you never meet another of your clan...Ever. And you go through out the 'entirety' of Nosgoth.

Granted this could just be another Paradoxical element, to be explained later. Or you some how missed all of this as Raziel. Again After his death centuries or so have passed before he resurfaces. So it's very possible, in that sense. For some of his clan members to be left. Now this is the Alpha/beta we may see the ability to have the players evolve who they use through out the game. Have the characters go through evolution states, like the 'gifts" or changes the vampires would go through. I think that would be a great element to put in there...this way they can add more gadgets for humans...and possibly some harder hitting elements like Fire mages (or were they shooting cannons?) and such that you see when you travel back in time in SR2.

I'm hoping to see the ability of vampire evolution added into the game, not just based on Exp(should they have it), Or Level(if it's in there) But on time as well. The vampires gained their evolution through time....So with the adding of evolution abilities in the game we can very much start to see what we've been givin, and already shown through out the LOk series as a whole.

Now I have yet to access the beta, and I would love to. So till I can get into the game I can only go off of what is being said in forum and in new announcements..but I can only guess that currently there is no evolution ability for the vampires...(yet).

soulrelic616
5th Dec 2013, 16:48
In Soul Reaver...during the first 15 -30 min into the game you find out that 500 centuries or so have past.


Not quite, the time passed since Raziel's execution is closer to a thousand years rather than only 500.

From the LoK Wiki: "The Nosgoth developers have followed deleted dialogue from Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver and used the “millennium or a moment” line as a guideline to time Raziel spent in the Abyss – so it's now confirmed as closer to 1000 years then 500."



We need to keep in mind...that after Raziel was 'ended' by kain. His clan was wiped off the face of the planet. But here it says 'some of the few surviving members. Which through out the entire SR game you never meet another of your clan...Ever. And you go through out the 'entirety' of Nosgoth.


The Razielim Clan was not wiped off the face of the world seconds after Raziel was cast in the Abyss... it was a long process and took certainly more than decades to clean the Razielim off the surface. Now, knowing that the time passed since Raziel was vanished is a 100 years, that gives us plenty of time to wonder what happened to the Raizelim, their struggles to survive and their eventual extinction. Obviously when Raziel returns as a wraith there are no Clan members around anymore.

Also, as a side note, Raziel did not go through the "entirety" of Nosgoth in SR... or do you remember him going through Meridian or Freeport? ;)




Granted this could just be another Paradoxical element, to be explained later.


It is confirmed that the event's from Nosgoth have always happened as they take place in the second timeline of the LoK series.




I think that would be a great element to put in there...this way they can add more gadgets for humans...and possibly some harder hitting elements like Fire mages (or were they shooting cannons?) and such that you see when you travel back in time in SR2.


The human Alchemists in Nosgoth do have hand cannons already, yep - inspired by the ones in SR2.



I'm hoping to see the ability of vampire evolution added into the game, not just based on Exp(should they have it), Or Level(if it's in there) But on time as well. The vampires gained their evolution through time....So with the adding of evolution abilities in the game we can very much start to see what we've been givin, and already shown through out the LOk series as a whole.


Yep! there is talk already of a leveling up system and (D)evolving as a vampire... really looking forward to it! :)

Vampmaster
5th Dec 2013, 16:50
It's closer to 500 years (or 5 centuries), but that still leaves plenty of time for the Razielim to be wiped out. Genocide takes quite a bit of time, you know.

EDIT: Sorry, soulrelic616. Didn't see your post with typing slowly.

Tube_Reaver
5th Dec 2013, 17:00
Hey guys and gals. :wave:

Lok Is a series I will never forget. Which introduced me into a world of gaming that was much more than FPS,RPG,and MMo's. That being said, I love it. Not just the vast story between all the characters, and the complex thought that went into the paradox element of the whole series. When My Ps2 finally broke down I was..upset. But on to why I'm posting...

In Soul Reaver...during the first 15 -30 min into the game you find out that 500 centuries or so have past. Now the further I read into Nosgoth...I'm trying to figure out where exactly during the time line this is...to have a better feel for what the characters of Dumas, Turel and Raziel's clan should look like. In the announcement trailer Bill Becham, Design Director states that it takes place after the event's that kick off in Soul Reaver. We need to keep in mind...that after Raziel was 'ended' by kain. His clan was wiped off the face of the planet. But here it says 'some of the few surviving members. Which through out the entire SR game you never meet another of your clan...Ever. And you go through out the 'entirety' of Nosgoth.

Granted this could just be another Paradoxical element, to be explained later. Or you some how missed all of this as Raziel. Again After his death 500 centuries or so have passed before he resurfaces. So it's very possible, in that sense. For some of his clan members to be left. Now this is the Alpha/beta we may see the ability to have the players evolve who they use through out the game. Have the characters go through evolution states, like the 'gifts" or changes the vampires would go through. I think that would be a great element to put in there...this way they can add more gadgets for humans...and possibly some harder hitting elements like Fire mages (or were they shooting cannons?) and such that you see when you travel back in time in SR2.

I'm hoping to see the ability of vampire evolution added into the game, not just based on Exp(should they have it), Or Level(if it's in there) But on time as well. The vampires gained their evolution through time....So with the adding of evolution abilities in the game we can very much start to see what we've been givin, and already shown through out the LOk series as a whole.

Now I have yet to access the beta, and I would love to. So till I can get into the game I can only go off of what is being said in forum and in new announcements..but I can only guess that currently there is no evolution ability for the vampires...(yet).

Hi :)

I literally just finished re-playing SR1 just yesterday, I just want to chime in and say that in SR1 you don't go through the entirety Nosgoth. Yes you go through a good portion of it, but if you think about it, you just go from Clan stronghold to clan stronghold until the end (trying to avoid spoilers). So there is a lot of Nosgoth that has yet to be explored by Raziel. If you read the Nosgoth blogs about the underground cities and such, these are areas that you don't encounter in SR1.

Also even Amy Henning herself never specifically said "the Razielim are extinct", and I for one am actually glad I get to see Raziel's brood in a game finally, as I have always been curious about them.

Finally, regarding your idea about vampire evolution using time (I assume you mean total time played overall? I could be misunderstanding your idea), but I personally think this is a bad idea.

Why? First let us assume that the evolution leads to stronger in-game vamps, well that's no good because it would give players who joined in Closed Alpha and Closed/Open Beta, a much bigger advantage over any new players who join during or after launch, and it would put off any new players who would be interested in playing the game, especially casual players. Leaving the game with a small player-base which in the end is not profitable.

Now let's go to making the vampire evolution merely cosmetic.
I still think it's not a good idea, as total time is debatable... are you saying if I play 1000 games, and lose 90% of them, I should get the nicest looking evolutions, whereas someone who has played 500 and wins 80% of his/her games doesn't deserve the same evolutions?
So in the end, imo an exp/leveling system (where you get more exp for winning, and thus an additional incentive to win) is better than simply "time".

JanusDominus
5th Dec 2013, 20:55
Don't get me wrong I don't think the graphics of BO2 were bad I just don't think they were LoK. In fact they were recycled and tweaked graphics from another game. So they may have been "cool" but they certainly weren't LOK. CD Soul Reaver team tried hard to make the characters greatly resemble their Blood Omen selves in higher quality. They did a very good job recreating Moebius, Vorador, Malek but Blood Omen 2 character models were vastly different.First - not graphics, concept art. Second, concept art wasn't recycled, it was just drawn by the same guy and he's pretty consistent in his themes.
But this right here.... Raziel's clan in this Nosgoth are heavily evolved and have wings. This would suggest that the evolution of his fledglings has progressed quite a bit, Turel was right behind Raziel as far as Kain's Gift distribution the Turelim should be long into evolution as well but lookNo it isn't, it's too early for them all to devolve, Razielim's horrible devolution is to be explained in the next lore blog post.

Sluagh
6th Dec 2013, 00:02
First - not graphics, concept art. Second, concept art wasn't recycled, it was just drawn by the same guy and he's pretty consistent in his themes.No it isn't, it's too early for them all to devolve, Razielim's horrible devolution is to be explained in the next lore blog post.
I don't know how much but elements were taken from Chakan: The Forever Man. Or at least a planneds sequel to this Megadrive/genesis game. It had some quite similiar themes to LofK.

I personally don't think they should introduce any evolution. Maybe some small changes from from fledgling to adult.

JanusDominus
6th Dec 2013, 00:27
I don't know how much but elements were taken from Chakan: The Forever Man. Or at least a planneds sequel to this Megadrive/genesis game. It had some quite similiar themes to LofK.

I personally don't think they should introduce any evolution. Maybe some small changes from from fledgling to adult.
Yeah, guess what: the same guy worked on Chakan: The Forever man, its canceled sequel AND Blood Omen 2. They weren't just "taken" from them, it's just that... Okay, here's quote from the man himself:

Yeah, some of the themes are the same simply because they came from the same artist (me). As for the symbol I had completely forgotten about it being on one of the Chakan Sketches. I did about 20-30 full color concepts in 2 weeks and it was all kind of a blur
As posted on The Lost Worlds.