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Razaiim
3rd Dec 2013, 18:47
Am I the only one picturing the lore division at Psyonix have a secret laugh over how teasing that lore article about the razielim is (I'm kind of amused by the image)? I was all like YES gonna find out how stuff went down! Gonna find out how stuff went down! Then nope, just a tease and a compilation of what's already known... AND THE MOST MASSIVE CLIFFHANGER TO RULE THEM ALL!
Don't get me wrong I love what you guys are doing, and my play experience has been wonderful, I just find the contrast between expectations vs what was delivered was hilariously massive

RainaAudron
3rd Dec 2013, 18:52
It´s actually a good re-cap for those who did not play previous games, and I think that was the intention. More interesting stuff will come soon in part 2, I can assure you of that ;)

Umbralim
3rd Dec 2013, 20:54
They did give us some information, like how the Razieliim knew something was gonna go down when Raziel grew wings, and hid some of there pupating fledglings in a vault just in case. I'm wondering something we know that vampires feed off the blood of humans and it says that After Pupating Vampires need large quantities of blood in order to break in there new forms. But I'm wondering, we know vampires have some blood in there bodies even if it isn't necessarily all their's if no human blood were present would a truly ravenous vampire resort to feeding on other vampires? if so that might explain why the razielim are so much more devolved as the ones that were pupating didn't get any new supplies of cattle since there clan was busy fighting a war and decided to chow down on their "midwives" perhaps? and drinking already corrupted vampire blood sped up the rate of corruption?

Violet-n-red
3rd Dec 2013, 21:18
feeding on other vampires?

drinking already corrupted vampire blood sped up the rate of corruption?

OK, that's the most reasonable explanation of Raselim devolution i ever heard or imagined... :hmm:

although originally i was thinking they ran and hid in the mountains, evolved there and flew even further, then became ugly because of lack of blood.

Sluagh
3rd Dec 2013, 23:17
Yeah perhaps the lack of blood is more of an issue, or its effects over time. It surely couldn't be that taboo for a vampire to consume another as Kain has done this in game on several occasions. But he is particularly ruthless. But thought the lore was generally good here. However one point - the bit about the vampires dragging bodies from the battlefields to turn them was a little curious. I thought the siring process in LofK was a little slow? Vorador makes a point of saying this, but then again he passes the curse as a blood gift as far as I know, unlike Kain whose gift is necromatic. Some more clarity here would be good.

Umbralim
4th Dec 2013, 00:02
Yeah perhaps the lack of blood is more of an issue, or its effects over time. It surely couldn't be that taboo for a vampire to consume another as Kain has done this in game on several occasions. But he is particularly ruthless. But thought the lore was generally good here. However one point - the bit about the vampires dragging bodies from the battlefields to turn them was a little curious. I thought the siring process in LofK was a little slow? Vorador makes a point of saying this, but then again he passes the curse as a blood gift as far as I know, unlike Kain whose gift is necromatic. Some more clarity here would be good.

That could also be quite true, I remember You could drink the blood of Vorador's wives in blood omen, and Umah says Kains blood could heal her wounds in BO2, which probably debunks my theory.

as for the curse though from what i understand, getting bitten by a vampire or drinking some of their blood would not turn you into a vampire in nosgoth rather it involves an existing vampires fusing a piece of his soul to the soul of an either a living or dead person. I think the difference between voradors version and Kanes was merely a matter of personal taste. Vorador preferred willing passionate individuals, while Kain seemed to be disgusted by what he saw as Groveling to others for power and probably didn't want those kinds of people in his legion, preferring to take those that fell in battle who at least tried to fight,
(not to mention forcing them to work for the very things they hated, clearly amused the hell out of him.)

as for the speed at first it probably was but, if kain made six vampires and few years later those 6 made 6 more and than those 6 made 6 more and so on and so forth eventually you'd have a bit of a legion and all the natural disasters from the pillars breaking probably helped.

Sluagh
4th Dec 2013, 19:21
That could also be quite true, I remember You could drink the blood of Vorador's wives in blood omen, and Umah says Kains blood could heal her wounds in BO2, which probably debunks my theory.

as for the curse though from what i understand, getting bitten by a vampire or drinking some of their blood would not turn you into a vampire in nosgoth rather it involves an existing vampires fusing a piece of his soul to the soul of an either a living or dead person. I think the difference between Vorador's version and Kanes was merely a matter of personal taste. Vorador preferred willing passionate individuals, while Kain seemed to be disgusted by what he saw as Groveling to others for power and probably didn't want those kinds of people in his legion, preferring to take those that fell in battle who at least tried to fight,
(not to mention forcing them to work for the very things they hated, clearly amused the hell out of him.)

as for the speed at first it probably was but, if kain made six vampires and few years later those 6 made 6 more and than those 6 made 6 more and so on and so forth eventually you'd have a bit of a legion and all the natural disasters from the pillars breaking probably helped.

Yes you may be right, although I think the whole issue could do with some clarity by developers as the preceeding games are at times a bit vague about the issue (BO2 confounds things particularly by being the least canonical). However, Umah speaks about Vorador as her "sire," whilst the clans in the SR games are presented as Kain's undead "sons." I know that obviously to sire something, essentially means to be the father of, but using this term makes it a bit confusing (particularly as it has an Anne Ricey feel about it, something more up Vorador's street than Kain's). The whole focus of BO2 was blood, rather than souls, so I've always assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that Vorador passed the curse on by some kind of blood gift, perhaps slowly, rather than merely by feeding. I found this on the wiki attributed to Amy Hennig, which still doesn't quite clarify it: (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Vorador):

Without going into too much detail, there are various ways a vampire can be born/created. The ancient/original Vampires (like Janos) had one method, by which Vorador was raised, and by which Vorador would also raise his vampire offspring. This would be a more "traditional" method, where the vampiric curse is passed from one vampire to a human.

Hmmm still a bit vague. But it suggests something to do with blood to me, especially as Kain appears to have not raised any vampires post BO (fourth timeline), having not yet discovered his method of giving part of his soul, so perhaps this is exclusive to him. I s'pose the only concrete thing we know is that vampires are sterile regardless, due to the Hylden curse.

Interesting what you said about Vorador wanting people to embrace vampirism (although I think this is only more evident in the BO2 Vorador), as opposed to Kain who thinks it should be foisted upon them, or doesn't care: if Kain and his lineage have to pass the curse onto a corpse, rather than a living being, then they are automatically going to encounter more problems than Vorador when it comes to willing converts. For if you have to be killed (and enter a state which nobody can know) to change into a vampire, how do you know you'll be receiving your unlife?

Umbralim
4th Dec 2013, 20:25
Hmmm still a bit vague. But it suggests something to do with blood to me, especially as Kain appears to have not raised any vampires post BO (fourth timeline), having not yet discovered his method of giving part of his soul, so perhaps this is exclusive to him. I s'pose the only concrete thing we know is that vampires are sterile regardless, due to the Hylden curse.

Interesting what you said about Vorador wanting people to embrace vampirism (although I think this is only more evident in the BO2 Vorador), as opposed to Kain who thinks it should be foisted upon them, or doesn't care: if Kain and his lineage have to pass the curse onto a corpse, rather than a living being, then they are automatically going to encounter more problems than Vorador when it comes to willing converts. For if you have to be killed (and enter a state which nobody can know) to change into a vampire, how do you know you'll be receiving your unlife?

true, but clearly corpse born vampire lose most memory of there previous life like Raziel had no idea he was once a Sarafan until he found the tomb. Though they probably keep some of their personality. but kain remembered who he was when mortanious turned him but, in all things Kain should be considered a special case.

Lord_Aevum
4th Dec 2013, 21:04
@Sluagh

It's accurate to say there is a distinction between Vorador/the Ancients' and Kain's methods of raising vampires. Here is the original link (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169) to that quote from Amy (second question): sorry about the temporary technical hitches at the wiki. To add to what's mentioned there, the original, "traditional" method is indeed described (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/reply/50801/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#reply-50801) as the "blood gift":

"Kain establishes his empire by recruiting six lieutenants. Kain, raised by necromancy, cannot "turn" a vampire via the traditional blood gift. By breathing a small portion of his vampire soul into a corpse, he draws the corpse's soul back into the body - the corpse is then revived as a fledgling vampire. In an act of calculated blasphemy, Kain raids the tomb of the six martyred Sarafan commanders. Their well-entombed corpses - though long dead - have been spared the corruption of the grave."

Nothing else is really known about the traditional means of siring pre-Kain, other than that it apparently involves blood and is not necromantic (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2028#p2028). It was supposed to be covered in Defiance through the character of Umah, but that obviously didn't pan out. Also note that only elders (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1957#p1957) can sire new vampires, never fledglings.

@Umbralim

Kain's vampires are not known to universally lose their memories upon being sired. This is rather a special case for the lieutenants only (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/reply/50801/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#reply-50801): "the six lieutenants have been too long dead to remember much of their human lives; they are ignorant of their Sarafan roots, or of Kain's blasphemous private joke".

Vampmaster
4th Dec 2013, 22:52
Kain's vampires are not known to universally lose their memories upon being sired. This is rather a special case for the lieutenants only (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/reply/50801/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#reply-50801): "the six lieutenants have been too long dead to remember much of their human lives; they are ignorant of their Sarafan roots, or of Kain's blasphemous private joke".

As I mentioned somewhere before, Kain's vampires have the pick of the greatest warriors throughout Nosgoth's history. Why pick a former slave who's probably in pretty poor condition and might still hold a grudge against you over how he/she was treated when you can have a champion from centuries ago who fought and won countless battles and is pretty much a blank slate to be tought anything you want?

I imagine the reason for stealing recently deceased corpses from the battlefield is because they need to restore their numbers quickly before more are killed off.

Kain did want passionate individuals, though. "Those whose passion transcends all notions of good and evil."

Sorry about this, but I've taken so long typing that I've forgotten what my point was. Hopefully it's still all relevant information.

Lord_Aevum
4th Dec 2013, 23:05
Even though they're not spelled out, I think they have their reasons to avoid raising long-dead individuals. "Were they so debased as to recruit fledglings from the desiccated corpses here interred?"

Vampmaster
4th Dec 2013, 23:38
Even though they're not spelled out, I think they have their reasons to avoid raising long-dead individuals. "Were they so debased as to recruit fledglings from the desiccated corpses here interred?"

I remembered the line, but I had look up 'dessicated'. That means dried up, so maybe they did prefer the newly dead. It didn't seem to do the lieutenants any harm, so I wonder what the reasons were.

On second thought, maybe *that* was a factor in the Razielim's accelerated devolution.

Razaiim
5th Dec 2013, 00:27
I always thought the razielim's devolution was a forced adaptation to survive. Say vampires pupated every century or so, the razielim's dire situation maybe forced them to pupate faster in order to adapt to the hostility, i.e. a carapace to protect against claws...

Vampmaster
5th Dec 2013, 00:51
It's already been stated that vampires can't just choose to evolve/devolve faster. I'm too tired to look for the quotes right now, but I'm sure it's been mentioned in many Q&As with the original developers.

Razaiim
5th Dec 2013, 01:09
I didn't say they chose, I meant like, idk how to explain, but since vampires evolve, then their being assaulted triggered the evolution faster than normal in order to survive... I know it happens in nature, where creatures develop changes to new situation

Vampmaster
5th Dec 2013, 01:29
When that happens in nature that just means that the majority of the population that hadn't already mutated in a benificial way were killed/died off, leaving the remaining members as the only ones left to procreate. It's not like any extra mutations are caused.

Razaiim
5th Dec 2013, 18:31
I think you're reading into this too literally, it is a fantasy setting, anything could happen

nehemoth
11th Dec 2013, 12:43
I loved the part 3 which unravels the cause of the devolution of the razielim. Nicely surprised to see so many differences between one razielim to another, at least each one is unique contrary to duhamim and turelim (we saw only clothes change). I can wait for a part 4. I really hope there will be an encyclopedia (same way as deckhart cain book for diablo 3 presenting all the lore) introducing the lore, some files on the vampire leaders and their progeny, the human factions and all. Expanded blog posts of sort. But I'm dreaming (or am I?)

ParadoxicalOmen
12th Dec 2013, 15:23
The way i see it, what happened with the Razielim was similar to what happened to Janos in BO2.

I'm quite sad we wont get to see the Razielim in their best state, as they are already introduced as devolved.

PS: i recomend the dark chronicle for anything to know about LoK http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/index.php

Sluagh
12th Dec 2013, 16:07
The way i see it, what happened with the Razielim was similar to what happened to Janos in BO2.

I'm quite sad we wont get to see the Razielim in their best state, as they are already introduced as devolved.

PS: i recomend the dark chronicle for anything to know about LoK http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/index.php

Yes I suppose it is kind of similar, although his condition was reversible. But I don't know if this is something to do with his Ancient status, or never something really thought about in the game. Maybe the Hylden were involved with his transmutation from the demon dimension, a bit like how the revenants were changed in Defiance, at the same time.

Vampmaster
12th Dec 2013, 16:13
I'm quite sad we wont get to see the Razielim in their best state, as they are already introduced as devolved.

Actually, George said on facebook that the devs are actually planning to include those.

ParadoxicalOmen
13th Dec 2013, 01:02
Actually, George said on facebook that the devs are actually planning to include those.

:'D



Yes I suppose it is kind of similar, although his condition was reversible. But I don't know if this is something to do with his Ancient status, or never something really thought about in the game. Maybe the Hylden were involved with his transmutation from the demon dimension, a bit like how the revenants were changed in Defiance, at the same time.

Hmm, i understood that Janos devolution was due to the draining of his blood to power the machine.
So, i thought this might have been the same thing to happen to the Razielim (the harsh conditions)...although we also have Kain's corrupted soul to consider.

The_Hylden
13th Dec 2013, 03:13
Yes, Janos states it was being starved of blood so long that forced his own body to devolve to preserve itself, basically. A similar thing happening to these band of Razielim makes sense and fits with this lore element.

Note that the corruption they gained from Kain probably would hamper their ability to reverse course as well as the instant Janos could return to his former self -- plus, he's one of the Ancients and I am sure that contributed to his ability to instantly restore himself.

I did find that to be rather convenient, his instant resurgence. But, this is BO2, after all.

ParadoxicalOmen
17th Dec 2013, 23:26
The final blog entry of the Razielim (part 4) confirmed it.
I was especially pleased to read that they were regaining their old form with the more blood they ingested (Thus confirming the theory that their devolution was due to starvation, same as Janos).
I'm very eager to see some concepts of their fully recovered, and hopefully glorious, form. And also wish that we will be able to play as these recovered Razielim :)