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View Full Version : MISC. Spawning and the impact I think it has on the game.



Strike5150
26th Nov 2013, 09:58
I was able to play again yesterday and I started to notice something that wasn't so clear to me before.

Spawning has a huge impact on the game and I believe it heavily favours the vampires. The issue is that for vampires where they spawn is working perfectly. They can't spawn into combat and unbalance a teamfight, and when they spawn far away they are not in danger of getting ganked because they have mobility and generally speaking the upper hand 1v1.

Humans on the other hand need to protect each other because most vampires have stuns that require teamwork to cancel/minimize the effect. This is a big part of their gameplay and is also very fun :). The downside is that humans also spawn away from combat, again I assume so as not to unbalance team fights. However spawning far away from your teammates depending on if your team gets wipes or not may automatically score the vampires a free kill. Maybe even more. A lone human running for his teammates is easy pickings.

What happens a lot is that humans will lose one or two in a teamfight, at this stage the vampires have a strong advantage. High mobility allows them to engage the two humans before their teammates can join up with them, or they are disorganized when the attack comes because they just found each other again.

A few discussion points for spawning.
1. Allow the humans to pick whether they spawn in 9 seconds, or together with other players.
2. We could have spawn points mapped out on the map and a deadzone around conflict so that you can't spawn too close.
3. Humans always spawn as 4.
4. Longer cooldown but humans always spawn together no matter if in combat or not.

lucinvampire
26th Nov 2013, 10:21
I know what you mean  when you are human you have to run like hell to get back to your team to continue to the fight - it is pretty hard going!
A lot of the time I find if one or two of your team go down the rest are sure to follow shortly – the vamps can just gang up if there aren’t enough humans.
I understand the logic of spawning both parties away from the game-play (to make it even) but it is definitely as you say a disadvantage to the human side!

Varulven
26th Nov 2013, 11:52
I think the humans are slightly OP when they stick together so the vamps have difficulties to reach a claw on them.
You ought to consider that the humans have their scouts and hunters. They can strike an apple from a grat distance.

Xaragoth
26th Nov 2013, 13:15
I think the humans are slightly OP when they stick together so the vamps have difficulties to reach a claw on them.
You ought to consider that the humans have their scouts and hunters. They can strike an apple from a grat distance.

Scout hits the Apple.
Hunter just shoots enough bolts to turn the apple and the person that lend it's head to mush :P

Varulven
26th Nov 2013, 13:22
Ya know what I wanted to say xD

Strike5150
26th Nov 2013, 13:53
I think most people will agree that vampires are stronger, even when the humans are clumped up. When the humans group up the trades are generally even. Assuming skill is even :P.

What really un-balances a game strongly is when the vampires break the base so to speak and then farm stragglers for 2-3 minutes while the humans try group up again.

Amorbis
27th Nov 2013, 19:17
I find that in games with a less co-ordinated human team spawning far away means that the team never really groups up properly, making the team's situation worse. It would help having everyone spawn at the same time, however it would also mean that the vampires essentially have to pick each player off, leaving one target less each time they do a group attack.

A system similar to Battlefield 3 might work, where you can spawn onto a team mate, leaving it up to player to decide if it's safe enough to spawn. Or something as simple as spawn protection, where you are invulnerable for a few seconds or can run faster for a few seconds upon spawning.

Psyonix_Corey
27th Nov 2013, 22:55
The main thing we're trying to avoid with squad spawning humans is being mid-fight as a vampire and having three humans magically appear out of thin air next to your prey. It also leads to stagnant matches because the battle doesn't rotate - people just keep spawning on top of the existing teammates and it's a neverending war of attrition over the same patch of ground.

We definitely want humans to be able to regroup and stick together, but we feel that solution (just spawning you on your teammates with or without spawn protection) is worse than the current issue.

We find that experienced groups of humans tend to stay put on respawn and wait for the rest of their crew to follow suit, but the new player experience definitely leads to frustration (as the default behavior is to sprint towards your wounded teammates who are still alive) so it's something we're evaluating.

Hugbringer
29th Nov 2013, 15:50
In my opinion so far I like the way that it spawns. So far, after playing a few dozen matches, I'd say it forces the team-based activity that might be intuitively lost with inexperienced players.

Like Corey Said, I find myself waiting for the rest of the humans to spawn around me when there is only one or two left and appear to be dying shortly afterwards. Once we're together, we flank the other Human that is still alive and catch the vamps on the side or from the rear, like we were real reinforcements. Mop up...than take shelter in what is nearby. I like to force the vamps to chase us a bit too if I can, instead of just circling and watching for stragglers. Fade-away tactics

Vamps, it does the opposite. Once you suffer losses, the survivors can assess and wait for the others to re spawn on top of Life regen, regroup and attack again from hopefully what appears to a better angle for attack. Makes you avoid being the 'Lone Vampire Bad-Ass' that you want to try and be. Divide and conquer tactics

I like the spawn tactics so far and leave a lot of room for Verbal communication to really cause some damage as a coordinated team.

Strike5150
29th Nov 2013, 16:47
Its not the spawning tactics that is a problem, but that its an advantage for vampires. I like them too, but I think we need to tweak them a little to take away the advantage its giving vampires. When you start to play games against all the best we've got in the alpha right now things start to take a different look altogether.

It hasn't happened that often but we have had one or two nights now where we managed to get the best players against each other in 4v4 matchups. The one thing that was really obvious was that vampires always did better than humans, and it was also obvious that spawning was a huge component to that loss.

Oroibahazopi
29th Nov 2013, 16:53
How does the sprint speed perk change the dynamic? Can you outrun vamps with it? I was sure that tenacity would be the go to perk but if the sprint perk allows for easier regroups then maybe that would be better.

I.e. if you lose a team mate or two the humans near the vamps sprint to the freshly spawned guys to deny kills.

LOFO1993
29th Nov 2013, 17:03
I don't personally see issues with the actual re-spawning system. It advantages the vampires, that's true, but it's just as true that as long as humans stay together it's really, really hard to kill any of them. I find there is some sort of balance, that divides the game in two phases: first the humans are in an advantage position, and they will likely kill more vampires than they lose comrades. Then, when vampires finally manage to split them up somehow, "the hunt begins", and vampires have some sort of easy-killing time to set the score.


I've been playing quite enough by now and I've also read some discussions around here, and the impression I have overall of this game is that it is very well balanced, but it "unbalances" very, very easily if one team has a couple or even just one very weak player: in that case, all the "issues" surface, but that's just because not working properly as a team against other players that instead manage to do it properly highlights the disadvantages of every faction without having a chance to benefit from the advantages (i.e. humans don't stick together properly and they feel like they are easily killed over and over, or vampires can't manage to break the human group so they say human camping is too OP).

hirukaru
29th Nov 2013, 17:07
I agree with Corey on this.

If you are slaughtered wait for your team to spawn or rush to them. Use buildings as cover.
(If you later use IG talk system, use that to say they have to come to you and you go to them. Meet half way).

Next I hear alot of people complain about the fact that vampires are OP and that humans are OP.
So in fact if both are OP it means there is some balance.
:)

Oroibahazopi
29th Nov 2013, 17:08
Just because it's balanced doesn't mean it's good design. Both teams could have an "I win" button and the fastest to press it wins the match, balanced but bad.

hirukaru
29th Nov 2013, 17:30
Dear Oroibahazopi,

Vampires will never spawn close to humans.
Humans will spawn on certain area's, when played correctly you can mostly get to your friends unharmed.
If you see a second one of your teammates died, wait untill he is spawned also and go together.

I think the "bad" part you are refering to is as Corey says that lots of players are not yet used to it.

The I win button comment I do not get?
If you play well together the chance to win is increased.
If the enemy is working well together the chance is also increased for them.
(still equal)
Vampires have less armour
Humans deal less close ranged damage
(Equal)
Humans can deal damage over longer range
Vampires needs to get close to do damage
(Favor Humans)

Vampires can climb buildings
Humans cant
(Favor Vampires)

In the end its balanced.
Ofcourse certain skills and class stacking can create a disbalance.

I like the spawning design, cause I dislike the I want to spawn here design on such little maps.
(When maps reach 16 vs 16 or 20 vs 20 it is needed)

But that is my opinion and I accept yours.

Oroibahazopi
29th Nov 2013, 17:48
I never said the spawning was bad. The comment was in reference to your two OPs cancel each other out comment which is bad design.

hirukaru
29th Nov 2013, 22:09
Oké Oroi that makes things clear.

Ofcourse ths is a personal opinion and it is good for you to have it.
I think more people probably agree with you.

But I played to much these couple of weeks I cannot see the the part where the bad design is.
Cause I can kill vampires with humans and humans with vampires.

Amorbis
30th Nov 2013, 02:35
Maybe the current spawning system simply needs to be tweaked a little bit. Something along the lines of changing how long humans take to spawn depending on how many humans are currently alive, for example if you're the only dead human you will respawn in 10 seconds, the next human to die will spawn in 7 seconds and so on. This way humans would spawn at roughly the same time.

The problems with spawning alleviate themselves a bit as players get more experienced, but to help newer players it could do with something to help people stick together.