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View Full Version : SCOUT Let's talk about the Scout class



RoryParke
23rd Nov 2013, 01:18
It's come to my attention after my most recent game that the Scout class that uses a bow is EXTREMELY powerful.
I'm just going to list pros and cons about this class feel free to comment on if some should be added or if you want to contradict me.

Pros:

Great mobility; uses grappling hook to get around
Can knock down Sentinels in mid flight
Camouflage allows for easy, sneaky kills
Turret and Volley abilities are great for team fights or extra damage
Has the option to use a Stormbow if the player chooses to buy it meaning long range explosions


Cons:

If found in a 2v1 has no real abilities for escaping besides grappling hook
Throw knives causes you to turn around to hit a chasing enemy; the only slow ability on Scout
Bows take time to charge up for a harder hit
The whole process of grappling hooks takes a while


Now let's list the pros and cons for the Vampires facing a Scout.

Pros:

If caught off guard you can easily kill them
Grappling hook sometimes can separate them from others making them easy prey
If a Sentinel kidnaps/abducts them from a roof that is extra height


Cons:

The bow is able to kill a Sentinel within 2-4 shots, Reaver 3-5 shots, and Tyrant 4-6
Can knock a Sentinel out of the sky (if they have the Warbow) making flight quite hard
Being on top of buildings as a Vampire now becomes a worry if a scout might be up there


There is my list of pros and cons with the Scout class. My main point I'm trying to get across here though is that the Bow does need a nerf in someone on the Scout. As of right now in the state of the game Scout is extremely powerful to fight with.

Xaragoth
23rd Nov 2013, 09:07
Most of the trouble with the Scout originate from the fact that there is a massive amount of very open sight lines for humans. On nearly every map there's a bunch of spots you can see very far, making it hard in general for Vampires to get close. Sentinels are among the most punished by this, but Tyrants are a close second simply due to their massive size and the inability to crouch down like Reavers can. A lot of the level design has these issues on nearly every map and it becomes quite troublesome, as the Vampires need these angles to get close - but instead they have to crawl around the ground, more likely to get shot to pieces. Good teams are quite a problem to take down right now due to this.

Scouts get extremly weak at close range - unless they get a charged shot off (or got the Swiftbow) and die very quickly. The Grappling Hook is a good tool to get into a overwatch position, but in most cases you'll just get abducted or dive-bomb-wing-flapped off the roof. It's also critical because a good Reaver can pounce you over a long distance and near instantly kill you - and your team can't help you at all. It's a cool utility skill, but in most cases you're likely to pick the Turret or Trap for the short-range defense, giving you a bit of a better fighting chance. The maps give you enough spots to shoot from without it.

Cloak thus far has been among the worst abilities tested, because it's just so easy to see for everyone (and it takes the slot of the extremly potent and versatile knives - which stop Tyrant Jump Attacks from ever reaching your team). Especially since charged Bows still display their fire effect.

Overall I feel the bows are among the least nerf-necessary equipment right now - especially with the Level Design in need of some work. There is far stronger gear that needs looking at. For example Grenades. 10s cooldown, giant throwing range, 600 radius and 600 damage. You can toss them at a spot you suspect a vampire and it will nearly always hurt them.

There's a few other skills that have a bit too much burst-aoe damage in combination with certain other abilities and weapons. Overall among the higher level players, these combinations are slowly becoming very evident and are generally what you could call the "Meta" right now - then again a lot of the other skills are lacking the synergy of these combos and that makes them a lot better than the others. I'm sure they'll slowly get adjusted as more and more people catch on to them, but for now I feel Scout is the least of the problems with balance. There's an overall problem of AoE bursting and CC chaining (as well as Class Stacking) being a bit too effective in TDM. This might even out with more modes though. Gotta wait and see.

The_Hylden
23rd Nov 2013, 16:02
I experienced the human gauntlet in Freeport the other night. They stand on the peer and can shoot everything coming. From the air, crawling on the ground -- it doesn't matter.

Edit: Just realized I'm repeating myself. Been a long week...

hirukaru
23rd Nov 2013, 17:20
I experienced the human gauntlet in Freeport the other night. They stand on the peer and can shoot everything coming. From the air, crawling on the ground -- it doesn't matter.

Edit: Just realized I'm repeating myself. Been a long week...

Peer tactic can be broken. But it is indeed still a bit OP.
And yes you are repeating your self Hylden ;)

Maby some day in the future humans learn to swim.
So vampires can drop humans in water and depending on the altitude dealing less or more damage.

Xaragoth
23rd Nov 2013, 21:10
Peer tactic can be broken. But it is indeed still a bit OP.
And yes you are repeating your self Hylden ;)

Maby some day in the future humans learn to swim.
So vampires can drop humans in water and depending on the altitude dealing less or more damage.

It'd be the easiest way to balance the spot. Humans just drown, due to gear weight or something. The spot would still be quite good, but have a bigger risk due to swooping Sentinel grabs. Might just balance it out.

Alternate option is to add some fishing-net hanging walls or such and raise the rooftop levels. Add some cover for vamps.

Syst3mzero
23rd Nov 2013, 21:15
Went up against a 4 scout team the other day, normally as a vampire I own the game now, there is a few exceptions, they camped in Valeholme and on the first attack we headed at them, I threw in a smoke and leaped in as a Reaver and went from full health to dead in a split second while mid leap. 2 charged shots had killed me on the death screen it showed only damage from 2 players.
because, they had killed us 14 times and we hadn't got a hit on them, I knew having played against and with some of them before it was going to be a hard match as I knew the balance was way in their favour but they took no damage and we were 14 down. there was no fun to be had so the entire team left.

Faced a similar problem but not quite as bad when I faced a team of camping alchemists, all they did was sat in a room spamming fire which as you know you cant stand in your own fire but its fine to stand in an allies fire. the answer to this was poison grenades thown into the room but it made the match rather dull.

I think it would be much better with limitations on numbers of the same class. for instance limit each class to 2 active at any time. If 2 are already in the much don't allow that class to be selected. Variety makes games more interesting. Imagine games of DOTA where everyone played as Sniper, WOW where everyone played Rogue, or TF2 if everyone played as spy.

Each class is specifically good at something and if you have 4 of them played by 4 good players it can become overwhelming when camping an area specifically good for that class.

I know I made the point about humans but they show the biggest advantage however the same goes for the vampires, imagine a 4 Tyrant leap and ground pound combo.

Limiting the teams to 2 max players per class would mean that you always have at least 2 choices of class to play and would also push players to become more versatile.

Xaragoth
24th Nov 2013, 19:43
I think it would be much better with limitations on numbers of the same class. for instance limit each class to 2 active at any time. If 2 are already in the much don't allow that class to be selected. Variety makes games more interesting. Imagine games of DOTA where everyone played as Sniper, WOW where everyone played Rogue, or TF2 if everyone played as spy.


Usually, that leads to hillarious results. LoLs new 5v5 with the same champ is well received as a funny side mode and as for WoW ... well, there's this here: http://youtu.be/2ZkDBRm1qFQ ;)

And everyone is a Spy ... WHACK THEM.

It'd probably fix a few problems if there was a class limit - on the other hand people hate it when they can't play their specific class. I think it's the easiest, but also the most annoying fix to this. Overall I feel a slight reduction on repeated attacks of the same nature would help reign it in a bit. If you walk into a Firewall and then into the next one, you'd only take reduced damage from the wall - but full from a Flamethrower.

Ah, well. Not the best solution either. Level Design improvements fix most problems right now, I think.

Razaiim
25th Nov 2013, 13:49
Maybe a way to balance the pier is to have steam or mist rising off the water to partially block or blur vision? That way it limits how accurately the humans can shoot from the pier, with out drastically changing the level design.

Tough_Badass
25th Nov 2013, 20:28
I don't think any changes need to be done to Freeport. The pier camping seems to be easily countered if the vampires sneak around the left side (and having a Tyrant on the team of course).

Xaragoth
26th Nov 2013, 02:05
I don't think any changes need to be done to Freeport. The pier camping seems to be easily countered if the vampires sneak around the left side (and having a Tyrant on the team of course).

The problem right now is that the Pier basically requires you to have Jump Attack as a Tyrant. If you charge, you get Siege Bow'd. It's bad for public games (especially low level) and pre-mades alike right now.

Strike5150
26th Nov 2013, 10:04
A lot of people ignore the extremely powerful smoke bomb in scenarios like this. On the pier, ONE smoke bomb can completely remove vision humans have of charging/pouncing/flying vamps. A war bow won't help you in this scenario. The thing is of course, most of us can't wait to get in there and start smacking some humans around. That will usually result in death :).

I think its ok for humans to camp areas like this. Especially because now the health stations have been moved.

Xaragoth
26th Nov 2013, 13:13
A lot of people ignore the extremely powerful smoke bomb in scenarios like this. On the pier, ONE smoke bomb can completely remove vision humans have of charging/pouncing/flying vamps. A war bow won't help you in this scenario. The thing is of course, most of us can't wait to get in there and start smacking some humans around. That will usually result in death :).

I think its ok for humans to camp areas like this. Especially because now the health stations have been moved.

The area is also so big that you need 3 bombs to cover it all without a gap :P

Strike5150
26th Nov 2013, 13:51
Its a big area but only way back on the pier gives the scout enough vision of the horizon to be a major pain in the ass. If the scout is standing further up my experience has been bad so far.