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View Full Version : VAMPIRES Few things about Vampires



RevanKaiju
21st Nov 2013, 00:22
So far I've played about 6 or so hours and I've noticed a few things that irritate me. 1) Vampires who are charging should not be able to turn or move to the side. No matter how many times I roll out the way, Sentinel and Tyrants can easily turn to grab/tackle me. 2) Vampires who leap out or charge at humans down/getting up should not be taking damage. That's completely unfair to the guy who is trying to escape. I literally prop myself up and get leaped on then just die. 3) Now this one can be hit or miss depending on your experience but I believe that their AOE's should not so much damage especially to a single target. I would get hit by Sentinel and Tyrant AOE's and lose half my health from that one move.
EDIT: Strikethrough #2

Psyonix_Corey
21st Nov 2013, 00:29
What do you think should happen if a Reaver pounces you and you've just gotten up?

hirukaru
21st Nov 2013, 01:27
If a human gets up, its a easy pray like it should.
Its balanced because you have to work as a team.

Just my 2 pence. (And I pay with euro's)

RevanKaiju
21st Nov 2013, 02:20
Fine then scratch number two out. I still stand with my other two and any others till I'm corrected in a way.

Magicaltophat
21st Nov 2013, 02:53
It's a tough call to make. I know I've seen humans essentially get chain pounced while their team mates aren't paying attention. I do think that an individual human's dodge should be buffed in some fashion. It's nigh on impossible to escape a vampire if you're caught in a bad place. I do think the idea of diminishing returns should be explored though. Say... The tyrant stomp does 300 damage or so, and stuns for about two seconds (Just an example, don't have the right numbers on me right now.) Maybe if you've been immediately hit by an ability, you won't be as affected for a few seconds. That might somewhat mitigate the problem in Sentinels or Tyrants chaining their stuns together.

I'm not sure the idea is entirely coherent, but I do hope I'm getting across what I mean.

Psyonix_Corey
21st Nov 2013, 03:29
Diminishing returns are a reasonable idea that's come up in other games.

Our challenge is communicating it to users and making it readable to vampire players. It sounds odd to be thinking of them when talking about humans getting chain pounced, but consider being the second vampire on the scene. What if I happen to Pounce a human who's gotten up recently and magically bounce off of him because he's protected... that wouldn't be a good experience.

Neither would landing a perfectly aimed Brute jump a few milliseconds after a teammate uses a weaker AOE ability and having it be neutered in damage / stun.

The_Hylden
21st Nov 2013, 03:51
I'm just glad you seemed to have fixed the spawn problem, where you'd spawn again and immediately be trounced by a vampire.

I have to say, from watching it happen to someone else in the game, the "chain pounce" actually looks intense and makes me want to fight harder to save the crew.

Xaragoth
21st Nov 2013, 04:17
The spawn sometimes is a bit weird though. Humans can spawn literally in sight of the place they died and pick all the vampires off before they can feed - Valeholm is a good example of that.

I think most of the balance problems we have right come from the auto-aim being overtuned - making it very hard to escape a vampire, that the Reaver has just a flat out absurd escape ability right now and the level design on some maps being just very favorable for humans. Actually when Mark joined our game, we all made a point of moving his AFKing lazyness personified into a spot we felt needs balance changes :P

Some combos of abilities are also just absurdly good (read: the rest aren't nearly as good as these are from what we experienced). Haste + Leap Attack + Choking Haze for Reaver, Jump Attack + Enrage + Shockwave for Tyrants, Grenade + Siege Bow + Poison Bola for Hunter, Light Bomb + Flamethrower + Multicannon for Alchemist and Swiftbow + Trap + Knives for Scout. Funny enough Sentinels are now the most balanced class after the nerfs to them - where before they had the lowest skill ceiling and the highest payoff.

There is however a bit of a tiny problems with humans sometimes being 'staggered' when there shouldn't be anything happening at all according to tooltips. This might be due to the tooltips being from the stone age in some cases or just due to animation lockdowns.

Vampires overall are actually pretty okay - aside from Reaver - right now. They are actually in some cases a bit on the weak side (Default Tyrant with Charge being skewered during Charge due to Endure Pain not being useable and Sentinel nerf being a tiny weeky bit too much on the Dive Bomb angle).


Both sides have a lot of very strong AoE skills right now that in a lot of cases should probably tuned a bit. Being hit by a double Tyrant Combo is about as fun as being at the other end of two Grenades and a Trap.

RevanKaiju
21st Nov 2013, 04:18
Hopefully those who play the game will learn to use your teammates more. Although I do hate the fact that at times when re-spawning I'm across the map away from my team then when I get to them, most of them have died. Guess it's better than getting attacked right out of spawn.

Xaragoth
21st Nov 2013, 04:27
It's a common problem that a lot of new players don't know the approaches and such. I'd actually kinda like to produce some kind of tutorial video with the other 'veterans' (read those who nerded away at it from the start and got like 40+ hours), but we aren't allowed right now - partially cause NDA, partially due to the watermark ruining it.

It's hard to make effective guides this way right now, which would help. I guess we could compile a buyers guide and some general rules of thumb.

21st Nov 2013, 08:44
You'd probably want to hold off on it the tutorial anyways, what with all the balancing of abilities and damage, the coming addition of new classes and game-modes, and all the other goodies coming our way.

-NightKid-
21st Nov 2013, 14:40
3) Now this one can be hit or miss depending on your experience but I believe that their AOE's should not so much damage especially to a single target. I would get hit by Sentinel and Tyrant AOE's and lose half my health from that one move.

I'm not sure about the exact damage numbers but each AOE does a minimum of 250 damage and all Humans have 1050 health. Also, single target skills do an average damage of 400 and above.


Diminishing returns are a reasonable idea that's come up in other games.

Our challenge is communicating it to users and making it readable to vampire players. It sounds odd to be thinking of them when talking about humans getting chain pounced, but consider being the second vampire on the scene. What if I happen to Pounce a human who's gotten up recently and magically bounce off of him because he's protected... that wouldn't be a good experience.

Neither would landing a perfectly aimed Brute jump a few milliseconds after a teammate uses a weaker AOE ability and having it be neutered in damage / stun.

Perhaps an X amount of time stunned in Y amount of timeframe before diminishing returns sets in would do the trick?

Scion_of_Balance
22nd Nov 2013, 04:46
Why not make it possible for humans to dodge roll after getting pounced rather than slowly getting back up?

Xaragoth
22nd Nov 2013, 09:03
Why not make it possible for humans to dodge roll after getting pounced rather than slowly getting back up?

Interesting idea. Castlevania features a similar system. If you are quick enough, you can leap to your feet, instead of having to get up slowly. It'd need a cooldown though.

Then again aside from some weapons and abilities being a bit "out there" right now, the game feels pretty balanced and rounded. Problems arise from certain combinations giving just a bit too much crazy burst or escape options right now. The change of the auto-aim was actually quite good. Feels fair now for both sides when in a fight.

Strike5150
22nd Nov 2013, 09:26
Interesting idea. Castlevania features a similar system. If you are quick enough, you can leap to your feet, instead of having to get up slowly. It'd need a cooldown though.

Then again aside from some weapons and abilities being a bit "out there" right now, the game feels pretty balanced and rounded. Problems arise from certain combinations giving just a bit too much crazy burst or escape options right now. The change of the auto-aim was actually quite good. Feels fair now for both sides when in a fight.

/agree +1

The_Hylden
22nd Nov 2013, 10:46
Heh, and that similar system is present within an actual LoK game. Blood Omen 2 had it. If you tapped the jump button (or maybe attack button -- can't remember off-hand) after being knocked down, Kain would spin leap to his feet again. Otherwise, he'd get up super slow :thumb:

Strike5150
22nd Nov 2013, 12:20
I just missed the part about communicating stun diminished returns. There is a good way to do this, make em glow. I played forge for a bit and the way they communicate this is by making that character glow more and more intense. When you have been hit my so many stuns that you are stun immune you have a full on yellow skin glow, not like a light but your model is covered in a yellow transparent skin.

So as you get hit by stuns you can glow more and more, this clearly communicates who is receiving diminishing returns from stuns and who isn't. I thought it was a pretty cool way to handle it.

SirFancyPants
28th Nov 2013, 15:29
i personally think that the classes are really fair however i definitely think that the sentinel could use a boost because at the moment it is not a very good option to play as

Razaiim
28th Nov 2013, 15:45
i personally think that the classes are really fair however i definitely think that the sentinel could use a boost because at the moment it is not a very good option to play as
My only issue with the sentinel is it seems kind of lacking on the ground. I found that there are points where it is too difficult to get in the air to use the better abilities (dive-bomb or abduct) but the target is too far away for you to close in and use abilities like impale or wing flap, or even melee. I've seen this happen as the poor sentinel, the target of said sentinel, and just a guy watching the show

Out side of those, I find the it can be quite good at breaking apart a group of humans (with help from the team). Maybe A fix to the ground issue is tweaking the sentinel dodge so that rather than a roll, it flaps its wings to do more of a leap forward (not an attack though, as an evade). The rolling animation can be preserved for instances the bola, or if the ceiling is too low, since the situation I described is usually in larger areas.

Strike5150
28th Nov 2013, 21:31
You can pick an escape ability as sentinal if you want. You don't have to use divebomb.

Sentinal is one of the strongest, if not the strongest vampire. When you play with a really good sentinal he will output more damage than anyone else on the team. Sentinals skill cap though is really quite high. There are a lot of things you need to do right in order to play against good players.

Worm4real
28th Nov 2013, 22:20
Heh, and that similar system is present within an actual LoK game. Blood Omen 2 had it. If you tapped the jump button (or maybe attack button -- can't remember off-hand) after being knocked down, Kain would spin leap to his feet again. Otherwise, he'd get up super slow :thumb:
Most fighting games feature this too. However I'm not sure if you have invulnerability when you're "downed" in this game since I haven't been able to play it much I'll assume you don't for my post. I actually see a few flaws in this. While in a single player game quick rise is a pretty good reward to train the player to react quickly and let him not get totally punished for being knocked down in a multiplayer game there's a lot different choices going into it. In this game you'd probably always want to quick rise, since otherwise you'd just be stuck on the ground getting pounced on, so accidentally missing your quick rise is actually a huge punishment.

So I think it might not necessarily be something good in this game. In Street Fighter avoiding a hard down by using a quick rise is a tactical choice. However in this game you're always going to be quick rising, so either it would be easy enough that it's mindless or it would be hard enough that when you mess up you'll have basically killed yourself.