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Keir
3rd Jul 2007, 13:33
And did you feel it was properly structured as a training level?

It3llig3nc3
3rd Jul 2007, 13:45
We criticized the tutorial system in question 2 - redundancy.
I still keep my opinion about the topic:

By far the most redundant part is the tutorial system. The tutorial aims to be very extensive and tries to "imitate" a navy training program. For a game like this it is the least favorable way to achieve the goal: get the newbie player accustomed to the game's system.
There is no new under the sun and most RTS games are using a much different approach: the tutorial is kind of built into the first single player missions including verbal or written aids helping the player to complete them.
And this is the most annoying part of BS:M for me: the trouble is that in addition to the tutorial the first 4 single player missions are very simplistic - I may say OVERLY simplistic requiring to command only ONE or a few vessels: the perfect ground for tutorial "type" missions. Thirdly add to this the first missions for the "Challenges" sections, which are also very easy exercises with the various type of units and you find the 3rd "sub-tutorial" in the game
After all it looks like an awful lot of development, scripting and design resources were "wasted" on this. If all these efforts were to put into building 3 "tutorial missions" and more REAL full scale battle missions or multiplayer maps it had been a better for everyone.

mortalstakes
3rd Jul 2007, 13:50
We criticized the tutorial system in question 2 - redundancy.
I still keep my opinion about the topic:

By far the most redundant part is the tutorial system. The tutorial aims to be very extensive and tries to "imitate" a navy training program. For a game like this it is the least favorable way to achieve the goal: get the newbie player accustomed to the game's system.
There is no new under the sun and most RTS games are using a much different approach: the tutorial is kind of built into the first single player missions including verbal or written aids helping the player to complete them.
And this is the most annoying part of BS:M for me: the trouble is that in addition to the tutorial the first 4 single player missions are very simplistic - I may say OVERLY simplistic requiring to command only ONE or a few vessels: the perfect ground for tutorial "type" missions. Thirdly add to this the first missions for the "Challenges" sections, which are also very easy exercises with the various type of units and you find the 3rd "sub-tutorial" in the game
After all it looks like an awful lot of development, scripting and design resources were "wasted" on this. If all these efforts were to put into building 3 "tutorial missions" and more REAL full scale battle missions or multiplayer maps it had been a better for everyone.

I agree with all of this. The tutorial, while a necessary feature to a game of this genre, could be incorporated into the first few missions, especially considering how basic they were

Kai Robin
3rd Jul 2007, 13:52
Yeah I agree,

I was so bored with the tutorial I quit after like the first 3 and just played the game.

If you still wanted a seperate tutorial what think would help would be to put everything about ships into one mission, everything about planes into one mission, everything about subs into one mission, and everthing about the tac map into one mission so there are only 4 total, not "this lesson is on moving, this one on damage control, this one firing guns," ect.

chip5541
3rd Jul 2007, 14:22
I concur. Due to the length of the tutorial, it can get seem to drag.

Cpt.sharp
3rd Jul 2007, 14:26
Quote:
Originally Posted by It3llig3nc3
We criticized the tutorial system in question 2 - redundancy.
I still keep my opinion about the topic:

By far the most redundant part is the tutorial system. The tutorial aims to be very extensive and tries to "imitate" a navy training program. For a game like this it is the least favorable way to achieve the goal: get the newbie player accustomed to the game's system.
There is no new under the sun and most RTS games are using a much different approach: the tutorial is kind of built into the first single player missions including verbal or written aids helping the player to complete them.
And this is the most annoying part of BS:M for me: the trouble is that in addition to the tutorial the first 4 single player missions are very simplistic - I may say OVERLY simplistic requiring to command only ONE or a few vessels: the perfect ground for tutorial "type" missions. Thirdly add to this the first missions for the "Challenges" sections, which are also very easy exercises with the various type of units and you find the 3rd "sub-tutorial" in the game
After all it looks like an awful lot of development, scripting and design resources were "wasted" on this. If all these efforts were to put into building 3 "tutorial missions" and more REAL full scale battle missions or multiplayer maps it had been a better for everyone.

I agree with all of this. The tutorial, while a necessary feature to a game of this genre, could be incorporated into the first few missions, especially considering how basic they were


I agree with both you aswell.

If the tutorial becomes manditory and within the first few missions.

Dogmeatz
3rd Jul 2007, 15:01
In short i didnt really think too much of the tutorials.

I think the tutorial is way to spread out, slow and repetative.

It could easily be condensed into maybe 3 missions SEA AIR and SUB.

Although BSM shouldnt feel bad, game tutorial in general are usually pretty badly implemented.

Another option would be to insert tutorials into the first few missions so you learn on the job as it is. As mentioned by my learned brethren above.

Scipio65
3rd Jul 2007, 15:09
I can' really comment on the value of the tutorial from personal experience. I had played the demo so much, and figured out most of the stuff the hard way, that when the full game came out that I didn't even do the tutorial.

Dremora Warlord
3rd Jul 2007, 15:16
I think putting the tutorial in, lets say, the first three missions on the difficulty EASY, there would be an ingame tutorial. If there was an achievement for it, you would get it. You would also get it if you play through on veteran your first time. Just a thought.

I just hated how long doing all ten of the tutorials were AFTER I beat the game on Veteran, just to get one of my last achievements.

-=)CSF(=-Akagi
3rd Jul 2007, 15:33
a tutorial is sooo important here!
like i said in some other threads, the ppl buy this game and go MP they dont play the tutorial and in game they cant start planes, shoot ships whit AA guns and many more "intressting" things.
if real soldiers are in the academy its also boring sometimes i think but its an "MUST".
my idea is...
MP part only possible if the academy gone through!! (translator hope its right)
in americas army game you can join mp server if you make the complete tutorial first!
thats correct!
how i controle and move units
how i start planes
how i controle repair settings
how i controle an sub
wich guns i need for enemy units and how i check range
how i move units on card

TUTORIAL IS VERY IMPORTANT and sometimes its an bit dry^^

AKAGI

It3llig3nc3
3rd Jul 2007, 15:43
Akagi: although I'm not a "believer" of the MP lockdown until completing the tutorial I see your point. Sometimes it is problematic to have players on-line struggling with basic things such as launching planes, etc...
My problem is that in my mind they are struggling because the game's control interface is COUNTER-INTUITIVE! (I'm talking about PC version). If that's the case why "waste" resources to teach properly an inefficient control method rather than building a good one that does not need that much training?

Also, although it is OFF topic here, in my personal opinion we have inexperienced players on-line because the DEMO only has this option to "test-drive" the game. And while optically it increases the on-line community crowd it was a VERY BAD strategic move from EIDOS.

Back ON topic, I still believe the tutorial is better embedded into the first few SP missions - we might say that the MP can be unlocked by completing those ones...?

Scipio65
3rd Jul 2007, 16:18
I'm not necessarily a fan of player experience ranking for online play, but if you did add player ranking or different skill level servers, whatever is easiest, then that would help the issue and eliminate the need for an MP lockdown.

I do get tired of these guys that don't know a destroyer from a carrier.

Wolfpack Apone
3rd Jul 2007, 23:15
tutorial was a waste of time and should have been incorporated into the 1st few levels.

Sith Darthfoxx
4th Jul 2007, 10:12
I'm with the First few missions crowd on this one. Something like what Star Trek Legacy did would suffice.

sblendo
4th Jul 2007, 14:08
I also agree with Early-Easy levels acting as tutorial.

Also perhaps that could be included with the DEMO. Or a first released demo, followed by a Multi-Player Map Demo. I played the Hell out of the Multi-Player Demo (because of how much fun I was having). I jumped in and took a while to figure out, which was frustrating, but once I was pretty sure about most things, I played that demo A LOT.

Also spent a bit of time trying to get other players up to speed on the demo.

Dremora Warlord
4th Jul 2007, 16:08
I also agree with Early-Easy levels acting as tutorial. ~~ sblendo


Exactly. It would only happen if you set it on EASY mode, not veteran.

Lexxy
4th Jul 2007, 21:54
I agree mostly with what has been written, it's worth looking back at the previous applicable threads too for detailed comments about this when we were thinking about accessibility and redundancy for example.

Personally, I'd like to see a "first-run" (by profile) context sensitive tutorial which applies globally (SP && MP) and outlines basic features and controls as the player picks up the game and explores it's features. Comparable games include CoD2, The Sims 2 and Half Life 2.

-Lexxy.

Shamrock
5th Jul 2007, 00:50
Well I learned the hard way through trial and error on the Demo. After literally about 40-50 hours of demo play I skipped the tutorial in BSM.


The main thing is if you put out BSM II, you can not release a demo with no tutorial.

BSM literally lost thousands of sales by not including a tutorial in the demo. That wasn't a smart decision by the developers. At the very least they should of had a video tutorial that launched the first time you played the game. Something or anything at all.

Thousands of people logged on the BSM demo, had no idea how to play, got whipped and turned off the game and deleted the demo.


The best option would be to make the tutorial mandatory before people can play online at all. I suggest that the demo next includes a tutorial and 1 single player mission.