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stevaroony
24th Jun 2007, 17:57
dunno who's idea it was to make the camera angles the way they are,but i recon he needs a swift kick up the scrotum,how naff are they,it wasnt by any chance the same guy who did the camera angles in prince of persia was it,either way i think he has ruined the game in that respect,what a KNOB

Atheist
24th Jun 2007, 18:01
Err...welcome to forums - but you really shoul'nt have bypassed the filter like that! :o

2 words you should edit out if you don't wanna be in trouble... :o

But anyway, WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! :D

I don't agree on the camra. I think it's good ****

Werner Von Croy
24th Jun 2007, 18:03
Err...welcome to forums - but you really shoul'nt have bypassed the filter like that! :o

2 words you should edit out if you don't wanna be in trouble... :o

But anyway, WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! :D

I don't agree on the camra. I think it's good ****

There is some dodgy camea work you got to admit, especially in the Lost Island Level

NaughtyGirl
24th Jun 2007, 18:45
I concur.

Tomb Radar
24th Jun 2007, 19:57
Just like learning to perform moves, we also need to learn how to control the camera. Its part of the game, and to me, part of the fun. :)

Demarest
24th Jun 2007, 20:56
I don't agree on the camra. I think it's good ****

Same here. If people don't like how the camera works, get it on PC where just moving your mouse does the work like most any other game ;)

Mertz523
24th Jun 2007, 22:18
Even when moving the camera for yourself on the PS2 (which ALWAYS works well with Legend and any other game I own) it was still a bit bothersome when hanging on a ledge and trying to see when and where to jump. My most difficult areas were Egypt and the Lost Island.

Werner Von Croy
24th Jun 2007, 22:19
Even when moving the camera for yourself on the PS2 (which ALWAYS works well with Legend and any other game I own) it was still a bit bothersome when hanging on a ledge and trying to see when and where to jump. My most difficult areas were Egypt and the Lost Island.

Yeah mate i know what you mean i never play PC version but PS2 version

Demarest
24th Jun 2007, 22:32
To this day, I'm confused as to why people play games on consoles at all. PC's have better video and audio, often the ability to mod, the ability to transmit save games, and better *ahem* controls ;)

Werner Von Croy
24th Jun 2007, 22:36
To this day, I'm confused as to why people play games on consoles at all. PC's have better video and audio, often the ability to mod, the ability to transmit save games, and better *ahem* controls ;)

And ahem full of bugs

NaughtyGirl
24th Jun 2007, 23:17
ps2...$200
good PC....$800+

some people can barely afford the games, why do you think they choose the console?

TheRidster
24th Jun 2007, 23:22
I prefer consoles. You can play on a bigger screen in more confort on your arm chair or bed etc. I know you can do this with a Pc but its too awkward and too expensive.

Mertz523
25th Jun 2007, 00:02
I paid $100 for my PS2.

Plus I prefer a hand-held controller to a keyboard. I know you can install a gamepad on a PC, but my graphics card won't support anything from 2003 and up, and that's the year I got my PC. I'm not about to go and get a new graphics card just to play 3 games that I already own for PS2. That's just ridiculous in my eyes.

And I also prefer the PS2 over anything because the games I play are exclusive to that system, and I can still play my PS1 library of games.

When you transmit save games, what does that mean? I'm no PC gamer, so please someone explain. And I would actually care about modding if I had the time to do it, but, alas, I don't.

boots
25th Jun 2007, 01:09
Plus I prefer a hand-held controller to a keyboard. I know you can install a gamepad on a PC, but my graphics card won't support anything from 2003 and up, and that's the year I got my PC. I'm not about to go and get a new graphics card just to play 3 games that I already own for PS2. That's just ridiculous in my eyes.

Same here. I work almost exclusively on a piddly little laptop, no way this thing is going to be able to handle a game like TRA. In fact the only computer we have that could is my brother's, but, well, he's on it all the time. :D He played Legend on it, though! Looked very nice.

But more than that, I've played every TR game we've owned on the PS or PS2, so it's a bit of a tradition for me. I'm utter crap at 3d games on the keyboard, not very coordinated, so I might be a little biased in that area (I know not everyone is, of course. But for me the gamepad is so much easier, so I think it's worth the sacrifice in graphics for the overall experience. I was never much of a stickler for those anyway; I figure if I can get through TR1 I can get through anything :lol: ) I'm not saying it's better than the PC, it just depends on your priorities.

Er, to get back on topic, I pretty much hated the camera when I first started playing, but now adjusting it has become second nature. I still prefer the old camera most of the time, though. It just takes a lot of practice, like everything else. Totally worth the effort in the end though! :thumbsup:

NizCroft
25th Jun 2007, 01:47
(Back on topic) I think the Legend/Anniversary camera is a huge improvement. In the old games Lara steers like a vehicle - you have to turn her and then move forward/backwards. In the new system, changing to and moving in any direction is swift and smooth, and turning the camera to look in other directions meanwhile is very fluent. You just have to get used to the system if you're new to the game. Give it a while, run around Lara's manor and make silly moves, and it should begin to feel as second nature. She moves alot more like a person and less like a vehicle, I think.

Mertz523
25th Jun 2007, 01:56
(Back on topic) I think the Legend/Anniversary camera is a huge improvement. In the old games Lara steers like a vehicle - you have to turn her and then move forward/backwards. In the new system, changing to and moving in any direction is swift and smooth, and turning the camera to look in other directions meanwhile is very fluent. You just have to get used to the system if you're new to the game. Give it a while, run around Lara's manor and make silly moves, and it should begin to feel as second nature. She moves alot more like a person and less like a vehicle, I think.

Well said. I totally agree. :thumbsup:

Oh, now I understand the transfering of savegames now. Where's the fun/frustration in that? If we get stuck on a console, we tough it out 'til we conquer it, not download a file to bypass it.

HOO AH!

NaughtyGirl
25th Jun 2007, 02:40
(Back on topic) She moves alot more like a person and less like a vehicle, I think.

I don't concur. Once you intuitively understood her movements old Lara wasn't much less fluid than new Lara...in fact since the camera is 2 steps slower than new Lara the same amount of time is wasted moving her into position to see where you need to go. I can't say how many times she jumped over a pole or missed a ledge because the camera was not cooperating.

shremedy
25th Jun 2007, 02:41
What annoys me are the "dramatic" camera angle changes when you are twirling around a moving hanging pole -- like in the giant clockwork outside the waterfall -- preparing to jump, and suddenly the camera angle changes! Which changes the direction you have to hold the thumbstick to jump in the correct direction...which could be *really* annoying in time trial mode, wasting time to re-orient...

NaughtyGirl
25th Jun 2007, 02:47
...even better was when you had a timed event, in an already frustrating level, jumps from multiple hanging poles....and the camera decides it's time for a oblique long angle side view. WTF was that about???

not that it made me upset or anything :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: ....just thank goodness for the alternate method :whistle:

Demarest
25th Jun 2007, 03:26
And ahem full of bugs

Speak for yourself. I used to be a PC technician and if there's one thing I learned, if your PC is buggy, chances are you're responsible. Either by picking some lame hardware or opening every "check this out" email that heads your way, and other unsafe internet practices.


ps2...$200
good PC....$800+

some people can barely afford the games, why do you think they choose the console?

You're posting on the internet, so you have a PC. That would mean at best, you're a $100 video card away from playing the game. AND you neglected to factor in the cost of getting a new console every couple years. I've spent less on this PC than I have on all consoles I've owned in my life combined and I do NOT have a PS3, XBox, or even a GameCube. Instead of buying a new console every couple years (and there are many people that have more than one) you could put that same money to minor PC upgrades. $100 this year for a top of the line hard drive, $100 to RAM next year, $100 to vidcard the year after that.


I prefer consoles. You can play on a bigger screen in more confort on your arm chair or bed etc. I know you can do this with a Pc but its too awkward and too expensive.

It's been over four years since any reputable vidcard didn't have TV out. And as I type this, I'm sitting on my couch, keyboard in lap, mouse on my side as always. You can't get more comfy than this.


my graphics card won't support anything from 2003 and up, and that's the year I got my PC.

The only money I've spent on my PC since 2003 was for RAM. I had a pair of 256 sticks and one ate it. I play TRA on 1280x1024 without issue.


I don't concur. Once you intuitively understood her movements old Lara wasn't much less fluid than new Lara...

I strongly disagree. I installed TR4 again today and I had to work twice as hard to do the same things. If only because you can move relative to the camera.

On the PC vs console, I have the minority opinion of those being vocal, so I'll bow out now. It just seems that in a thread where people who have to take their thumb away from four buttons just to move the camera are complaining about it, pointing out that you can play it on a superior machine that uses a mouse that allows you to move it without sacrificing any other controlability seemed relevant. Perhaps complaining is just more fun :p

NaughtyGirl
25th Jun 2007, 03:55
Perhaps complaining is just more fun

...probably so!:rasp:

hon...10 years ago....PC vs console, PC graphics were not as advanced, cheap computers did not have enough space and power, and most people did not have a PC. Obviously I bought a console before a PC. I've had my console longer than my PC.....both of them (PS1 before my first laptop and PS2 before my second laptop) I tried playing TR on my 1st laptop once...it sucked and I didn't like it:(



And as I type this, I'm sitting on my couch, keyboard in lap, mouse on my side as always. You can't get more comfy than this.
...as I play my game lying in my bed wrapped in my comforter with my wireless controller on a 26 in TV...it gets NO more comfy than that...actually typing on my laptop from bed is not nearly as comfy, gives me neck cramps....:(


You're posting on the internet, so you have a PCI am a lucky bastard to have been able to afford my very own laptop and to be a grown up....because I could be typing...hmmm, from work? from my mommy/daddy computer with a curfew and parental controls? from a friends house? from the library? really....some people have internet access and do not have a PC??:eek:

also I am posting on the internet using my computer for computerly uses....I did not buy it to play games**** except some FreeCell now and again.:D

on PS you can move Lara just as fluid as you do with Legend, even better because she could back and side flip and you knew with precision how she would move....because it's basically the same buttons. Why do you think people freaked out with AOD, she was clunky yes but it was also the lack of precision that made it so durn evil!

...oh well....opinions are like **** everybody has one. Some stink...

Demarest
25th Jun 2007, 04:14
You'd never guess by my words, but you're actually preaching to the choir. I had a NES and a SMS back in 1985. The former, I actually had to do yardwork all summer long just to be able to afford for myself! Oh, and I first had internet access through WebTV. So yeah, preaching to the choir ;)

But the time of PC's being inferior is a good six or so years in the past now. Consoles in the meantime are becoming more and more like PC's. There's a reason for this and it's not because Microsoft entered the fray. :p The ONLY advantage of consoles is that from the moment you unwrap your game, you know you can just stick it in and it will play. The lack of ability to transmit saves alone doesn't make this worth it in my book. Besides that, the longest it EVER took me to troubleshoot a game was FFVII for PC. It took not quite a full day's time. Since then, I've played through twice with graphics four times the quality of the original game. Due in part to fan based mods and such. Something you can't get on consoles.

As for people with internet access but no PC, you know that's the exception to the rule. I admit I was generalizing when I made that point, but the point still stands for the most part.

I originally bought my first PC class computer for the sake of video editing, not video games. Back then, I had TR, TR2 and TR3 for PSX, so I know how inferior it was both to PC and the Legend engine. Still, this machine does my video games and my video editing and allows me to communicate with everybody I know and many that I don't and pursue my programming and graphics work and and and... So much so that I'm actually considering getting rid of my home theater.

To each his own. People can prefer consoles and they don't even need a reason. Just with the reasons being given, I think people haven't opened their mind to the possibilities or the age we're living in.

boots
25th Jun 2007, 05:55
Right, I've changed my mind, this camera is terrible. I put it in the same position every time and 50% of the time it sees fit to suddenly swing the wrong way and force Lara to skid to a halt in the middle of a perfectly good wall run. :mad2:

...well, I just noticed how appropriate that emoticon is. That makes me feel a little better.

gyste4
25th Jun 2007, 08:52
I dunno what you guys think, but I've wasted much time killing lara accidentaly because of the cameras. URGH they are INFURIATING! They're not always THAT bad but they are when you have to do a time trial or get accurate jumps in a limited time... I've spend too much time screaming at my lappy. It's probably because I have a mouse pad.. but I have found more problems with the camera in anniversary than in Legend.

Werner Von Croy
25th Jun 2007, 09:01
Speak for yourself. I used to be a PC technician and if there's one thing I learned, if your PC is buggy, chances are you're responsible. Either by picking some lame
You're posting on the internet, so you have a PC. That would mean at best, you're a $100 video card away from playing the game. AND you neglected to factor in the cost of getting a new console every couple years. I've spent less on this PC than I have on all consoles I've owned in my life combined and I do NOT have a PS3, XBox, or even a GameCube. Instead of buying a new console every couple years (and there are many people that have more than one) you could put that same money to minor PC upgrades. $100 this year for a top of the line hard drive, $100 to RAM next year, $100 to vidcard the year after that.


It's been over four years since any reputable vidcard didn't have TV out. And as I type this, I'm sitting on my couch, keyboard in lap, mouse on my side as always. You can't get more comfy than this.



The only money I've spent on my PC since 2003 was for RAM. I had a pair of 256 sticks and one ate it. I play TRA on 1280x1024 without issue.
The cost adds up when you have these attachments


I strongly disagree. I installed TR4 again today and I had to work twice as hard to do the same things. If only because you can move relative to the camera.

On the PC vs console, I have the minority opinion of those being vocal, so I'll bow out now. It just seems that in a thread where people who have to take their thumb away from four buttons just to move the camera are complaining about it, pointing out that you can play it on a superior machine that uses a mouse that allows you to move it without sacrificing any other controlability seemed relevant. Perhaps complaining is just more fun :p

First of all you mentioned that the gamers are at fault and it's their machine that's at fault? Well i have just purchased a brand new machine, and the bugs are still there, it's Windows that's at fault and their stupid direct x controls.

Some people just simply cannot afford to fork out hundreds of £s or $s to buy a new PC and consoles is a cheaper way to enjoy the gaming experience, we live in the real world you see, also the RAM and graphics cards also add to the hundreds of £s or $s the person already forked out for the new computer, there is also a lot of games you simply cannot buy for the PC and only avaliable on certain consoles such as Mario and resident evil remake for example.

Lastly the only way to get your point across is to make "suggestions, you as a PC tech should know this perfectly well, so that the next product can be rectifed without the same problems from it's pre-decesor

FallenxFromxLight
25th Jun 2007, 11:43
I agree! The camera didn't even face Natla in the final battle. I had to readjust it everytime she moved, and it meant that I got hit with fireballs during that vulnerable down-time.

Camera was absolutely great to me for the majority of the game, but as soon as I got to the Atlantis levels with the timed wall runs and boss battles, it was the end of the line.

I really hope that by making a totally brand new engine for TR8 they eradicate literally almost all the camera problems that plagued Legend and Anniversary. While the camera reset button was a huge help, it did absolutely nothing in Atlantis or Lost Island which was a crying shame.

GeorgeMaciver
25th Jun 2007, 12:09
Did any of you consider that perhaps the poor 'knob' is probably more pissed off than any of you because Eidos maybe forced CD to release the game before they were 100% happy with it to keep a few shareholders who care nothing about anything except their own bank balances happy? ;)

Werner Von Croy
25th Jun 2007, 12:14
Did any of you consider that perhaps the poor 'knob' is probably more pissed off than any of you because Eidos maybe forced CD to release the game before they were 100% happy with it to keep a few shareholders who care nothing about anything except their own bank balances happy? ;)

I recollect Angel of darkness :scratch: yes it's about cashing in, not a very effective marketing strategy, i thought good companies first priority was customeer focused not cashing in?

FallenxFromxLight
25th Jun 2007, 12:25
I recollect Angel of darkness :scratch: yes it's about cashing in, not a very effective marketing strategy, i thought good companies first priority was customeer focused not cashing in?

Companies like that are few and far between now, I'm afraid. Especially now that SCI bought out Eidos, it's going to be even more money hungry-ness than before. This is the era of $cidos.

NaughtyGirl
25th Jun 2007, 12:25
i thought good companies first priority was customeer focused not cashing in?

:lol: :lol: :lol: breathe :lol: :lol: :lol:
it's all about the benjamins baby!


Did any of you consider that perhaps the poor 'knob' is probably more pissed off than any of you because Eidos maybe forced CD to release the game before they were 100% happy with it to keep a few shareholders who care nothing about anything except their own bank balances happy?

you mean like they did Core? Yet everyone blames CORE for how much AOD sucked. Plus this guy said the camera is similar to POP which means someone has already had the opportunity to fix this camera issue, and didn't.

I think that sucky camera was supposed to be part of making the game harder when they started running out of shimmies and jumps;)

Rog
25th Jun 2007, 12:41
Let's bring it down to basics.

In the PC version (I don't have a console so can't comment there) the camera does not follow Lara, at least not as a general rule. Since the player "is" Lara it means that half the time she's running blind - oh what happened to running by the way??!!
Surely it's logical for the gamer to be able to see as Lara sees or am I missing something?

The fact that you can place the camera behind Lara by pressing the "J" key is of little consolation if by pressing said key and waiting for the camera to move behind Lara before jumping you end up jumping too late. A perfect example of this is in Midas' palace in the Sword Room. Here the camera sometimes automatically moves behind Lara and moves her position too to make things easier for you but at other times changes the camera angle you have adjusted with the mouse provoking a false move. It took me 2 days play to finally crack the artifacts and the lead bar.

My point is that the camera positioning isn't even consistent. Sometimes it tries to help you at other times it is your worst enemy. In some situations there is simply not enough time to take your eyes off the screen to press the "J" key or move the mouse around until everything is lined up.

I played the earlier games and rarely had any complaints about the camera. With Legend and Anniversary this has all changed and for the life of me I can't understand why.

Just my humble opinion of course!

Kind regards
Roger

Xcom
25th Jun 2007, 12:55
Surely it's logical for the gamer to be able to see as Lara sees or am I missing something?

Maybe only the fact that the game uses so-called 3rd person view, not 1st person (where you see what character sees).

Lycantendencies
25th Jun 2007, 14:20
It just seems that in a thread where people who have to take their thumb away from four buttons just to move the camera are complaining about it, pointing out that you can play it on a superior machine that uses a mouse that allows you to move it without sacrificing any other controlability seemed relevant. Perhaps complaining is just more fun :p
Well firstly, as others have said, playing it on PC is not an option. On my laptop it runs slowly and buggily. That's not through anyone's fault but the virus makers and hackers that neccessitate I run all this protection software.
Similarly, an extra £150 for more RAM and a new graphics card is cheaper than a new console, but unless I want to play far less games than I currently do due to the hundreds of games that aren't on PC, it's not a case of one or the other, it's an additional cost I just don't have.

The fact of the matter is that I, and many other paid £25-£30 for this game.
We shouldn't have to switch to another machine, this version should work properly.

When you use the grappling hook to run across wall (a great new feature) and the camera angle moves to where you can't see where you need to jump, even if you try to change it, something is wrong.
If you need to manually readjust the camera constantly on timed sections wasting valuable time when Legends didn't have this issue, again something is wrong.

Complaining isn't fun, it's neccessary.

Anni is fantastic, but the dodgy camera coupled with the less responsive controls of the sixaxis almost makes certain areas unplayable.

Werner Von Croy
25th Jun 2007, 14:22
Well firstly, as others have said, playing it on PC is not an option. On my laptop it runs slowly and buggily. That's not through anyone's fault but the virus makers and hackers that neccessitate I run all this protection software.
Similarly, an extra £150 for more RAM and a new graphics card is cheaper than a new console, but unless I want to play far less games than I currently do due to the hundreds of games that aren't on PC, it's not a case of one or the other, it's an additional cost I just don't have.

The fact of the matter is that I, and many other paid £25-£30 for this game.
We shouldn't have to switch to another machine, this version should work properly.

When you use the grappling hook to run across wall (a great new feature) and the camera angle moves to where you can't see where you need to jump, even if you try to change it, something is wrong.
If you need to manually readjust the camera constantly on timed sections wasting valuable time when Legends didn't have this issue, again something is wrong.

Complaining isn't fun, it's neccessary.

Anni is fantastic, but the dodgy camera coupled with the less responsive controls of the sixaxis almost makes certain areas unplayable.

Here here games on PC use LOT of RAM and hard drive space

Demarest
25th Jun 2007, 14:29
The fact that you can place the camera behind Lara by pressing the "J" key is of little consolation if by pressing said key and waiting for the camera to move behind Lara before jumping you end up jumping too late.When I read this, I was going to point out that you mean to say the Display HUD key, since J does nothing in my game and console users don't have a J key. Then I read this:


In some situations there is simply not enough time to take your eyes off the screen to press the "J" key or move the mouse around until everything is lined up.Why would you sit by with controls that require you to take your eyes off the game when you're on PC and can configure your controls with something that works?

As a PC user, you can just move your mouse to move your camera. Which means you can do it as you're running or as you're doing anything and everything else. The only time I ever used the Display HUD key was on some ropes. And let's face it, MOST of the time you used a rope or swinging from a grapple in the game, it's from point A to point B in a straight line. I figured this out while doing time trials. So very rarely did I actually NEED to take the time to make sure I was lined up.


First of all you mentioned that the gamers are at fault and it's their machine that's at fault?Uh, no. I said it's the user. The machine, even with Windows installed, is still just the sum of its parts. If you allow crap to get on your PC, impacting your performance, it's not the machine's fault, nor did I ever suggest.


Well i have just purchased a brand new machine, and the bugs are still there, it's Windows that's at fault and their stupid direct x controls.You said just purchased a brand new machine. Which means it came already built and with Windows Vista (and who knows what else) installed on it. You've just made my point for me. I used 98Lite for a long time and the only reason I switched OS'es is because once I got into heavily modding GTA3, 98 couldn't handle the constant alt+tabbing in and out of the game. I went with 2000 and have been with it since. I got to sit back and watch as all the SUCKERS bought XP just because Microsoft told them to. Then they whined that nothing they had worked anymore. When Vista came out, what did they do? THE SAME THING! :lol: :lol:

Every part in this machine, I bought. Not the machine, it's parts. Which means everything inside is what I chose. No more no less. Which means no crap in terms of quality and no crap in terms of stuff I simply don't need. I'm the one who installed Windows. That was years ago on both counts. That everything still stands, no issues is testament of what I'm saying. I've seen the "average PC user." They're willing to open and install anything anybody tells them. Then they wonder why this crashes or that's not responding and so on.


Some people just simply cannot afford to fork out hundreds of £s or $s to buy a new PCFirst of all, I've already covered the comparison in expenses. Secondly, PC's aren't like consoles. You do NOT have to just go and buy a new one. See, in the good old days, PC technology was rapidly evolving because they were behind in a lot of ways. PC's of five to six years ago were finally as strong as most people need. Much of my machine is what people would call old, but it does everything I need it to, including TRA at 1280. These expenses you speak of only apply to those who go for the latest and greatest. Those content with a machine that WORKS aren't spending anymore than those that have a couple consoles and get a new one each generation.


we live in the real world you seeThe one where PC's are buggy? ;) There's no need to get nasty.


also the RAM and graphics cards also add to the hundreds of £s or $s the person already forked out for the new computerI spent more on my PS2 than I did on my gigabyte of RAM, which cost about $100. My graphics card is YEARS old and at the time, I paid the equivalent of about $100 for it (got it in trade IIRC). So when you bought your PS2 (or equivalent), I had spent about the same amount of money on the vidcard and RAM and have a machine five times as powerful. PS3 (or equivalent) comes along, and you have to shell out even more money. Meanwhile, I'm still taking the latest games without shellling anything out for newer hardware. Because PC's are that powerful and have been for years.

As I said, you can prefer consoles if that suits you. But don't lie to yourself that it's about cost because you're wrong. You also can't argue the pricing point when as you've said, you just bought a new PC. So you have the machine... use it!


there is also a lot of games you simply cannot buy for the PC and only avaliable on certain consoles such as Mario and resident evil remake for example.Present day, this is a FAULT in game manufacturers. Did you notice that there are people out there willing to pay top dollar to install a window into their machine? To not release your game for PC is a poor business move. Oh, and you're wasting your time. I am a King's Field and GTA fan, so I have a PS2 so I can play the games that I would want to play that I can only have for PS2. I once had an N64 JUST for SMW64. Again, if cost is your concern, let these companies know how you feel the only way you can: your dollars. If people did NOT buy machines just for certain games and just made do with their PC's and the many excellent games available for them, developers wouldn't be able to afford overlooking that key demographic.

NaughtyGirl
25th Jun 2007, 14:50
demerast, you do like to argue/debate/nitpick:eek: please stop talking down to grown folk....your supercilious tone is starting to wear on my nerve

the camera wigs at times....at crucial moments...whether on purpose or not

and some people don't like it

it's not about pc vs console because it's been noted in both.

It's the way the game is. I personally think a lot of it is deliberate to make the game seem harder.

but not worth a ream of reaming....so unless you are the camera dude, why are you getting so heated?

some people like console play...it's not a crime;) agree to disagree and let go!

rwhitz
25th Jun 2007, 16:42
I have to agree about the camera to a point. It is hard to do a wall run and then jump the way you need to go when the camera wont stay behind or beside Lara. (where it was when u started) and in some cases you cant see where you need to go. Other than a few cases though, the camera worked pretty good for me.

Atheist
25th Jun 2007, 16:44
When I read this, I was going to point out that...

Woah. Longest post ever! :eek: :lol:

TheRidster
25th Jun 2007, 17:29
demerast, you do like to argue/debate/nitpick:eek: please stop talking down to grown folk....your supercilious tone is starting to wear on my nerve

the camera wigs at times....at crucial moments...whether on purpose or not

and some people don't like it

it's not about pc vs console because it's been noted in both.

It's the way the game is. I personally think a lot of it is deliberate to make the game seem harder.

but not worth a ream of reaming....so unless you are the camera dude, why are you getting so heated?

some people like console play...it's not a crime;) agree to disagree and let go!

Agreed!! Thank you. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, people choose whatever appeals to them most.

LisaB1962
25th Jun 2007, 18:28
The problem isn't the "camera"; the problem is the camera and the relative control scheme where Lara's directions are relative to the view on the screen. Since said view changes mid-movement, suddenly you may be pressing the wrong direction. :mad2:

Make direction constant from Lara's POV (where forward is always the way Lara is facing) and I think you will have greatly minimized the number of problems.

Of course, I still prefer the old "look" button where you got to see your surroundings from Lara's perspective rather than just a different view of Lara in her surroundings. :lol:

Demarest
25th Jun 2007, 19:26
@LisaB: Well, you also weren't able to jump up in previous TR's. That's just a fact of the mechanics of the game. Knowing that, you can adjust accordingly. There may be a learning curve, but all games have it. Every TR had some new movement.


demerast, you do like to argue/debate/nitpick:eek::scratch: I noted that I had the minority opinion and offered to bow out. A couple people (including yourself) kept the conversation going. They made counterpoint, so I make counterpoints. You can call it a debate if you drop the negative connotation, but this is how discussions go.*


please stop talking down to grown folk....your supercilious tone is starting to wear on my nerveIt wasn't me that said "those of us in the real world." And that was the only condescending remark in this thread until your post.


it's not about pc vs console because it's been noted in both.Actually, back in this very thread, one such notation was that one loses control because trying to right the camera. A PS2 user must take his thumb from FOUR buttons to do this. A PC user flicks his wrist. Something that can be done while doing... everything else.


why are you getting so heated?As soon as I "get heated," I will let you know. In the meantime, it's people discussing a SUBJECT as opposed to trying to discuss a poster ;)


some people like console play...it's not a crime;) agree to disagree and let go!Yes, please do! I've already stated that I appreciate that people have their own opinions. That's not what I was discussing, is it? If somebody says something that's untrue, there's "no crime" in helping them to understand the truth. If they based their preference on some untruth, learn the truth, and still maintain that preference, it matters not to me. I'm not trying to change their mind, but help make sure the choice they make is more educated.*

*Forums are for discussion and for information. You've spoken down towards me (when I'm not the subject of this thread) for discussing and for sharing information. I'm not sure what the issue is, but we're gathered here together for a common interest in a leisurely passtime. If you have an issue with me, maybe you can discuss via PM and let the innocent bystanders discuss the topic and exchange information in the spirit of a forum. Thanks.

Rog
25th Jun 2007, 19:47
Why would you sit by with controls that require you to take your eyes off the game when you're on PC and can configure your controls with something that works?

As a PC user, you can just move your mouse to move your camera. Which means you can do it as you're running or as you're doing anything and everything else. The only time I ever used the Display HUD key was on some ropes. And let's face it, MOST of the time you used a rope or swinging from a grapple in the game, it's from point A to point B in a straight line. I figured this out while doing time trials. So very rarely did I actually NEED to take the time to make sure I was lined up.


I've been playing PC computer games since around 1984 and always used the keyboard. Anyone remember Thexder?!
As a result I learned to play (steer) using the arrow keys and with my right hand. This gave me few problems up until Legend where the mouse comes into the game. If I want to use the mouse I have to use it with my left hand or steer with my left (movement) neither of which is comfortable for me.

The arrow keys make sense to me because they are separated from the rest of the keys on the keyboard and can't be confused with adjacent keys as can happen with the "W, A, S, D" keys.

Now, as to camera angle. If I run a Formular 1 game, which I used to do a lot using a Thrustmaster wheel I expect to have a camera angle as though I was in the car, and why? Cos it's the only angle that makes any sense! The fact that some car racing games allow you to use different angles is fine - as an option - but not as main/only viewpoint. Just imagine trying to steer a racing car if you had to do it from the side or the camera angle kept shifting as and when the software felt like it.
Lara isn't a car - at least I've noticed that much!, but I don't understand the 3rd person angle, sorry. As I have said many times - new ideas are fine, most of the changes can be got used to some better than others but it still begs the question - why???

kind regrads
Roger

NaughtyGirl
25th Jun 2007, 19:50
:rolleyes:
I think you should change your name to....giveitarest

majority ruled, camera bites. 'nuff said. thank you and have a good day

FallenxFromxLight
25th Jun 2007, 20:21
:rolleyes:
I think you should change your name to....giveitarest

majority ruled, camera bites. 'nuff said. thank you and have a good day

You should give it a rest and stop being so rude to people who don't share the EXACT same opinions as you. You may think Demarest is superlicious (not even a real word) but you are acting far worse and definitely more immature.

As for LisaB, I agree 100% future TRs should base control off of Lara's POV/direction she is facing and not be camera relative. Lara herself will become tremendously easier to control, if done properly.

TheRidster
25th Jun 2007, 21:08
If somebody says something that's untrue, there's "no crime" in helping them to understand the truth. If they based their preference on some untruth, learn the truth, and still maintain that preference, it matters not to me. I'm not trying to change their mind, but help make sure the choice they make is more educated..

Why do you assume people are 'untrue'? Is it not possible both sides of the argument are right depending on your point of view and requirements? Your original point remember was that you could not understand why people choose consoles when computers offer superior video and sound. I responded by reasoning that consoles are cheaper, in regards to your original argument! I'm not sure about the US but in the UK to get a computer to perform equal or better graphically than the xbox 360 would cost more than the price of an Xbox 360 premium, even if you bought the parts seperatly and built the computer yourself. Anybody who says different tell me where you get your parts!!

On topic I think that the camera does have its moments, even on the PC, but I think ultimately it is an improvement on the older tombraidrs. The main problem for me was when trying backward jumps of ledges.;)

Hippie
25th Jun 2007, 22:45
I play the old games up to Chronicles on PC, and the rest on a console. For me it's just a matter of the controls I'm used to. I also didn't mind shelling out $600.00 for the PS3. I like watching Lara in wide big screen now.

As for the camera angle (which I think started this thread), I don't have much a problem with it. With the Right joystick that manual controls the camera and L2 button that resets the angle to be behind her, I've got it under control.

NaughtyGirl
26th Jun 2007, 00:36
superlicious is definitely not a real word

supercilious, however, is....:rolleyes:

and if you felt I was rude I do apologize, I am not disagreeing with the opinion of Demarest if they like PC or console or whatever....or if they like the camera angle. However I am stating and reading for myself that the persons responding on this thread state they do not like the camera, something that I do not concur has any relevance to using a PC or a console....and no one needs to be questioned on how much they pay, or on what system they choose to play the game in a demeaning manner, especially when stated in condescending terms such as making people more educated......and I do feel the picking apart specific points to state opinions, not facts, is very demeaning. One person got his console for $100....no one is getting a game ready PC for $100.

Now we can shake hands and move on or not.

Demarest
26th Jun 2007, 02:47
Why do you assume people are 'untrue'?

Why do you assume that I assume PEOPLE are untrue when I say that some people believe in untruths? For me to let somebody know that a generalization they subscribe to is not true doesn't reflect negatively on the person at all.

I had more, but I'm done dignifying this trash talk. It's sad that some want to turn an innocent DISCUSSION into a brawl, but I'll have no part of it.

Discordia666
26th Jun 2007, 07:12
I don't know where this idea that PC games are buggier than console games comes from.

A console game is just a computer program like a PC game. It's easier to to debug because they only have one set of hardware to make it work on. But these forums are full of people complaining about bugs in console versions of games and everyone I know who has consoles has games they can't play because they have bugs in them. The difference is you can't fix it with a patch on a console like you can on a PC.

For this reason, I guess the developers spend more time making sure console games are bug-free, but they still miss plenty.
Also, some of the bugs in the PC versions seem to be caused by the inclusion of extra functionality, better graphics etc.
These bugs can be annoying, it's true, and the developers should definitely spend more time getting rid of them, but they usually do get fixed.
I still reckon the PC versions are better and still cannot convince myself to get a console. Every time I see the console version of a game I played on the PC, it reminds me why I don't have a console. And the PC version of a game can become so much more once the modders get their hands on it.

And as to the cost, console gamers are always dragging out that old chestnut about PCs costing more than consoles. This is barely true any more. The cost of PCs is falling all the time, while the cost of consoles is rising. You can actually buy a PC for less than the cost of a PS3.
OK, the graphics card in a cheap PC is not gonna be up to it. So buy the PC with an upgraded card. PC versions of games are so much cheaper than the console versions that you'll soon recoup the extra you spent! And, with a PC, you can upgrade it bit by bit to keep up with advances in games whereas, with a console, you have to buy a new one every year or keep playing your old games over again because your console won't run the latest games 'cos they were only written for Sony's latest machine which is a year overdue and so already a year behind the cutting edge when it comes out.

And so you can play it on your big tele, sitting in bed. So can I, if I want to. But all you're doing is making the same picture bigger so it looks worse and you have to sit further away to see what you're looking at.
Unless you spend a fortune on HDTV, of course. So what was that about consoles being cheaper? And I can use my PC with HDTV, too.

Consoles are just a clever way of giving you what they want, instead of what you want, and ripping you off in smaller chunks so you don't notice so much.

LisaB1962
26th Jun 2007, 17:53
@LisaB: Well, you also weren't able to jump up in previous TR's. That's just a fact of the mechanics of the game. Knowing that, you can adjust accordingly. There may be a learning curve, but all games have it. Every TR had some new movement.


I'm not sure what you mean? Lara always jumped 'up' in previous TRs. :scratch:

Demarest
26th Jun 2007, 18:58
I'm not sure what you mean? Lara always jumped 'up' in previous TRs. :scratch:

If you had a ledge below a ledge, Lara was never able to jump up to the next one. In MANY spots in the game, you need to do exactly this to advance.

@Discordia: Great points. Especially on the HDTV one. While console users are just blowing up a smaller image, I'm playing on a resolution that dwarfs HDTV. And while you point out the fallacy they bring up, don't play by their game. The total cost of the PC isn't the issue. Most of these people already have a PC. To take it from where it's at to gameworthy is probably a $100 vidcard. Which is less than any console.

LisaB1962
27th Jun 2007, 17:52
Ah! But then, without the clear path of ledges that is the current platforming base, there was a lot more guesswork in how to get from one place to another. That's my primary complaint about the current platforming move set---too environmentally based. I like all the new moves (not necessarily their animations) but I'd like more of a mix of longer jumps, etc. to bring back that sense of "now where?"

Atheist
27th Jun 2007, 18:07
I've only played the demo, but the ledges stand out to much. They should blend in with the background so it does'nt look to ovious.

Lectrician
27th Jun 2007, 18:10
In my limited experience with this game on the PC, using the mouse for the camera is no better than using the right thumbstick. There are still blind jumps and even rotating the camera with the mouse stops rotating at the same place rotating it with the thumstick does....I'm not sure how the PC vs Console debate even came up.

Demarest
27th Jun 2007, 18:19
In my limited experience with this game on the PC, using the mouse for the camera is no better than using the right thumbstick.This can't even be argued. To operate the thumbstick, you need to take your thumb away from four buttons. PC users move their wrist, retaining control of all four buttons PS2 users must abandon. Four is greater than zero.

Lectrician
27th Jun 2007, 18:29
Sure...but the left thumstick also changes the point of view, and most controlllers now have some version of a trigger which doesn't require a thumb at all. That's the only button you really need available in that split second it takes to move the camera in either method.

The camera has real issues when you are on some wall and the camera will not pan to show what's behind you and you have to just simply know what's there...no mouse or gamepad changes that. Thus bringing us back to...Sack the camera guy.

Swatcat
27th Jun 2007, 19:06
I've been playing PC computer games since around 1984 and always used the keyboard. Anyone remember Thexder?!
As a result I learned to play (steer) using the arrow keys and with my right hand. This gave me few problems up until Legend where the mouse comes into the game. If I want to use the mouse I have to use it with my left hand or steer with my left (movement) neither of which is comfortable for me.

The arrow keys make sense to me because they are separated from the rest of the keys on the keyboard and can't be confused with adjacent keys as can happen with the "W, A, S, D" keys.


Hi Roger,

I strongly suggest you "unlearn" to use the arrowkeys.
The arrow keys make NO sense because they are separated from the rest of the keys on the keyboard :)

If you place you right hand on the mouse and the other on the
keyboard, were does in end up in it's most natural position?
Somewere around WASDFRE right? By no means on the arrowkeys.
I think you're making it really hard for yourself by trying to hold on
to those good old arrowkeys. ;)

They served you well in the past,but maybe it's time to try something new,
something which goes hand in hand with the mouse and doesn't place you
in uncomfortable or even impossible positions.

May I suggest this simple but very efficient setup:

Run/forward: left-mousebutton
Fire/shoot: right-mousebutton
Left: s
Backward: d
Right: f
(just think of them as the 3 bottom arrowkeys)
Jump: space

This leaves you with a circle of easy to acces keys for other use (crouch,grapple, roll, ect)
WERTGVCXZA and some extra's for the less used features.
And you practicly have a free finger (the backward-one) to use them.
I also suggest setting the invert y-axis of the camera to yes, to make
it more logical/natural.

I know it's hard to make a change but try it, give it some time (!)
and I think you might really like it :)
And then it's bye bye arrowkeys ;)

Demarest
27th Jun 2007, 22:18
Sure...but the left thumstick also changes the point of view

Ah, okay. That still pulls your thumb away from four buttons whereas flicking your wrist doesn't rob you of any.

I know what you mean about not being able to see behind you when clinging to something. We all know this to be the case. We can picket "sack the camera guy" or we can accept that this is one element of this make believe world and choose to manuever accordingly. In situations like that, I would climb around the corner, so I could look sideways to what WAS behind me. Or I can backtrack a bit to have a better look. With very few exceptions, I never had to wonder because I was looking at the world around me and planning my route ahead of time.

Anybody complaining about TRA's camera has never played SMW64 :lol:

TheRidster
27th Jun 2007, 23:57
This can't even be argued. To operate the thumbstick, you need to take your thumb away from four buttons. PC users move their wrist, retaining control of all four buttons PS2 users must abandon. Four is greater than zero.

I played TR:A on my PC with a gamepad. I found that the times when I moved my thumb from the four buttons to the right analog stick I did not need to use the four buttons. In combat I used the trigger button with my finger. That disadvantage therefore did not matter to me.

Astara
28th Jun 2007, 00:35
Just like learning to perform moves, we also need to learn how to control the camera. Its part of the game, and to me, part of the fun. :)

Yes -- it would be more fun if we could learn to use the camera at least as well as in legend (which had it's moments, but not like anniversary). I'm not sure what aspect the original poster (?what words did he supposedly get around? *curious*) was referring to, but there are *alot* of "impossible" camera angles >>IF<< you like to see where you are jumping.

This is especially true for new players -- I'd have a fit learning this system in this game -- so many "blind" jumps. It's gotten so prevalent in this game, that I've started to take jumps in weird/strange directions because I couldn't see where to go -- I just assume (quite rightly, often), that I need to jump blindly out in space and my hands will just magically be able to connect. It's so much less "real" feeling than Legend.

Astara
28th Jun 2007, 00:49
Hi Roger,

I strongly suggest you "unlearn" to use the arrowkeys.
The arrow keys make NO sense because they are separated from the rest of the keys on the keyboard :)

Or -- the rest of the keyboard keys are separated from the keypad's arrow keys.
Remapping other keys to numeric pad helps...like arrows on number pad used for direction, 5 used for duck, 7 for shoot, 9 for jump, etc -- you find a layout that works. But the half'n'half...

If you place you right hand on the mouse and the other on the
keyboard, were does in end up in it's most natural position?

Um, I more often place my left hand on my mouse. I'm right handed and my right-hand has more over-use problems. To spread out the usage, I started using my left hand for the mouse -- using the right gets it sore. So...

Somewere around WASDFRE right? By no means on the arrowkeys.
I think you're making it really hard for yourself by trying to hold on
to those good old arrowkeys. ;)
----
Or if you try to do all finger work with left hand, and right hand for mouse, my right hand's wrist gets "moused out", and my left fingers get tired more quickly than my right typing fingers. Setup to use left mouse and right hand for keys can work better for some.

May I suggest this simple but very efficient setup:
...
Buy a logictech rumblepad 2 for your PC. Everything is mappable. Trying to play this on a keyboard is masochistic. I only use keyboard to type in "savegame" names.
The USB rumblepad multiplied my hand-to-eye speed by at least by 30%....

Lycantendencies
28th Jun 2007, 00:57
I know what you mean about not being able to see behind you when clinging to something. We all know this to be the case. We can picket "sack the camera guy" or we can accept that this is one element of this make believe world and choose to manuever accordingly.
I don't see why we should accept it when it's avoidable.
Other games have similar potential awkward angles, Legend included, but they're not a problem (mostly) as the camera adjusts itself to the most accomodating position.

Also, as someone who's played Mario64, I remember some awkward camera work, but not that much and it was excusable as 3D platformers were relatively new to Nintendo.
I'd actually say the console version of Anni has worse camera work and no "new to 3D" excuse.

Demarest
28th Jun 2007, 01:44
I don't see why we should accept it when it's avoidable.
Other games have similar potential awkward angles, Legend included, but they're not a problem (mostly) as the camera adjusts itself to the most accomodating position.You missed my point. Let me try a comparison. Say you never change the oil in your car and eventually the engine ties up while you're en route somewhere. You can sit there at the side of the road, complaining about the guy who made it. Or you can accept that this is reality and manuever from that point accordingly. Stating that other cars receive regular oil changes or that your reality could've been avoided is irrelevant.

This is here and now and from here and now, you can go in two directions. One is forward. The other, is what we see here. Which doesn't accomplish anything and has actually led to some rather unnecessary unpleasantness.

@TheRidster: Don't dismiss context. I stated a fact. It was made first in explanation to somebody who complained that operating the camera required them to sacrifice control. It was made a second time in refutation to the claim that PC camera use is no better than console. If you would like to point out that using a camera might deny you of buttons, but they're buttons you don't need at that time, you would have to direct it to the person who spoke otherwise, not me. ;)

Lycantendencies
28th Jun 2007, 10:02
You missed my point. Let me try a comparison. Say you never change the oil in your car and eventually the engine ties up while you're en route somewhere. You can sit there at the side of the road, complaining about the guy who made it. Or you can accept that this is reality and manuever from that point accordingly. Stating that other cars receive regular oil changes or that your reality could've been avoided is irrelevant.

Well first I'd say that if Tomb Raider Anni were this car, it's not that we don't oil it, more that there is a design fault, and the car doesn't run as well as it should.

Now obviously, as you say, we do have to deal with the car as is, but as consumers that paid for it, we're also entitled to complain that we paid for something that isn't running properly.

This gives us an outlet and allows us to direct our displeasure at the person who was responsible, but much more importantly, the more we complain, and the more people who join in that complaining, the more the company is aware of it and the fault is rectified on the current model and upcoming models of that car.

It's not a car of course, they can't repair the PS2 version and replace all other copies, but they are working on the 360 version right now (which is the version I'd have preferred from day one) and awareness of the problem should lead to them rectifying the issue some.

Same goes for TR 8 too.
If we don't complain now and the camera sucks, it's our own fault.
If we do complain, then like our praise for certain things, CD have feedback of what does and doesn't work, what improves it and what detracts from it.

Lectrician
28th Jun 2007, 13:22
Same here. If people don't like how the camera works, get it on PC where just moving your mouse does the work like most any other game ;)

....and gives you the exact same camera angles....PC does nothing to improve this and I am a PC player.

Lectrician
28th Jun 2007, 13:30
Let's stick with the oil change analogy for a minute since it made me giggle.

Car = Tomb Raider game
Driver = Developers of Tomb Raider Game
Oil Light on Dash = us..the players...buyers

The oil light (us the players) warn the drivers (developers of tomb raider) that the car (Tomb Raider) needs servicing.

There...now your oil change analogy makes some sort of sense.

Now, don't get me wrong. While a bit annoying, the camera angle stuff hasn't given me that much heartache. It's still an amazing experience. I would be careful painting the picture that the PC grass is somehow greener on this issue....the camera angles are the same...period.

NizCroft
28th Jun 2007, 14:00
Let's bring it down to basics.

In the PC version (I don't have a console so can't comment there) the camera does not follow Lara, at least not as a general rule. Since the player "is" Lara it means that half the time she's running blind - oh what happened to running by the way??!!
Surely it's logical for the gamer to be able to see as Lara sees or am I missing something?



I'm playing on PC too, and CD's camera plays exactly like a 1st person game to me, except that the camera swivel behind Lara instead of being inside her skull. This also means I play it like I play a 1st person game, by never taking my hand off the mouse, but using it to fluently steer direction of movement and view. I'm sure you have tried atleast one 1st person game where you had to do the sidestep running to compensate for looking oppositely sideways during movement. CD's camera does exactly that. It makes view independant of movement, not as a penalty but as an addition. That's how i feel about it atleast. The only thing that annoys me sometimes is when swinging on poles and the camera is forced sideways, but that only happened to me in Legend and in Great Pyramid (which was a bad level for so many other reasons too).

Demarest
28th Jun 2007, 16:17
This gives us an outlet and allows us to direct our displeasure at the person who was responsible, but much more importantly, the more we complain, and the more people who join in that complaining, the more the company is aware of it and the fault is rectified on the current model and upcoming models of that car.
I knew somebody would say that. To say that, you're not looking past your own viewpoint. There are going to be people that hate it and there are going to be people that love it, with all types in between. Furthermore, it's the culmination of years of research, development, testing, and so forth. You can't please everybody and those with unkind words tend to talk louder and in greater number. So in the end, you're telling them something they could already depend on hearing and something that is inherent with every product in existence. There's ALWAYS room for improvement. So while I don't think they're not listening, for you to reflect what comes naturally isn't going to be half as influential as you might imagine.


Same goes for TR 8 too.
Anniversary IS the eighth TR.


....and gives you the exact same camera angles....PC does nothing to improve this and I am a PC player.
I've already addressed this at least three times AND with the context that went with it ;)

Swatcat
28th Jun 2007, 17:36
I'm playing on PC too, and CD's camera plays exactly like a 1st person game to me, except that the camera swivel behind Lara instead of being inside her skull. This also means I play it like I play a 1st person game, by never taking my hand off the mouse, but using it to fluently steer direction of movement and view.

:thumbsup: This is how I play and why I most likely have no issues or
problems with the camera most of the time. (97½ %)

Lectrician
28th Jun 2007, 17:43
Same here. If people don't like how the camera works, get it on PC where just moving your mouse does the work like most any other game ;)

You'll have to explain the context...the original post was about camera angles. The above is your first post. I guess I am missing what context you are using to start up the PC/mouse vs Console/controller debate. His post...nor none of the posts prior to your first post mention effall about sacrificing control.

At the end of the day you like it as is, I wish it was a little better. We both love the game either way.

Cheers.

TheRidster
28th Jun 2007, 18:19
@TheRidster: Don't dismiss context. I stated a fact. It was made first in explanation to somebody who complained that operating the camera required them to sacrifice control. It was made a second time in refutation to the claim that PC camera use is no better than console. If you would like to point out that using a camera might deny you of buttons, but they're buttons you don't need at that time, you would have to direct it to the person who spoke otherwise, not me. ;)

Ah alright! I must have misread someones post as I genuinely thought you were the first person to bring it up!

Lycantendencies
28th Jun 2007, 19:48
I knew somebody would say that. To say that, you're not looking past your own viewpoint. There are going to be people that hate it and there are going to be people that love it, with all types in between.

We're talking the camera here, we're talking about having to make blind jumps without any ability to know where we're jumping to.
For as long as I've been playing games reviewers and fans alike have never considered this a good thing.
Never once have I seen people say we should be jumping wildly with no idea of where we're jumping to and hoping for the best only to die and have to backtrack for 2 minutes and make the same blind jump again, and again, and again.

Not to mention that in many platform games we hear that developers themselves work to avoid this as they find don't consider it a good thing.


Furthermore, it's the culmination of years of research, development, testing, and so forth.

Yet the camera in TRA is slower, less responsive and less flexible than in Legend. At least on the PS2.
It's not the camera itself, it's the implimentation in this particular game.


So while I don't think they're not listening, for you to reflect what comes naturally isn't going to be half as influential as you might imagine.

I think you missunderstand here.

If you like or dislike something, they're not going to know until you say so.
Sometimes that will effect what they do from then on in, sometimes it won't, but if you say nothing, you guarantee nothing will change.

I don't speak expecting to influence, I speak to add my voice to others and hope that enough people feel that way that the they see there is an issue that bothers enough people they'll do something about it.


Anniversary IS the eighth TR.
I said TR8, not the 8th TR, there is a difference.

Whatever it's titled, the sequel to Legend will be the 8th story in the series with Anni being the 8th game, but just a retelling of the first story.

tiger
28th Jun 2007, 21:00
I'm going to try to talk "positive" for a bit. . .
(Well, I will be, indirectly.) :cool:
And I'm not even getting into that PC vs Console mess, because it's simply off-topic, folks. :o

Nividia Zone Game Demos (http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_downloads_demos.html)

And looky here, they even have our TRA Demo at the very top!
How fricking handy and near-topic for a TRA group! :thumbsup:

AND they even have one of my favorite olde-style "real world" games, also. Thief: Deadly Shadows (T3)
And I'd bet you a nickel that T3's stealth mode is a lot more like a real one. And it's not just a special animation-sequence for our lovely Lara to creep about with. And damn, for such an olde game, they certainly did a fine job of smoothly combining First Person and Third Person Views, didn't they? ;)

And it a real shame that they don't have the BloodRayne 2 Demo, there. (Oh well, you'll just have to rough it, here, mates... Sorry about that.) gamers hell BloodRayne 2 Demo (http://www.gamershell.com/pc/bloodrayne_2/)
Now, that camera is on serious magnetic-bearings, with an AI on steroids!
And you will have one very difficult time, trying to lose sight of Miss Rayne, folks! :thumbsup:

But, within their demo, they have a small camera bug of it locking onto a vaulting bar's axis and then spinning the player's view around, as Rayne approached it... And I talked to them about it and they had well over a year to fix it. (In running-mode, Rayne was suddenly running straight into the wall that was holding the bar. . . Like OUCH!)

See. . .
Now, wasn't that "nice and positive" of me, but still pretty damn direct? :D

Demarest
28th Jun 2007, 21:57
I said TR8, not the 8th TR, there is a difference.If there's a difference, then TRA would be the 11th TR.


Whatever it's titled, the sequel to Legend will be the 8th story in the series with Anni being the 8th game, but just a retelling of the first story.Okay. You've sold me. I come from standard naming conventions where the engine determines the volume. However, I would have to agree with you that in the case of a game that tells "the same" story, where the makers didn't give it a numerical name, excluding it from a volume count would be accurate.

As for "blind jumps," I had already said my piece on that. If you'd like to refute THAT, then by all means. As opposed to selecting something else and speaking as if I had not. Only a fool would take a blind jump more than once. You have options. But then, I've covered that already ;)

tiger
29th Jun 2007, 00:10
Thanks for reminding me, Demarest, about blind jumps.
(From the depth of your average User.ini file, in any UnReal-engine game with a decent set of Console Commands, I created a small customed set of "Field Of View" settings, like you will find with any cheap pair of binoculars or a simple telescope. :cool:


Up=fov 10|say Telephoto 10 LOCKED
Left=fov 40|say Telephoto 40 LOCKED
Right=fov 20|say Telephoto 20 LOCKED
Down=fov 90|say Telephoto 90 NORMAL

These are all locked views, but temporary ones can be easily added with the onrelease command to return to the normal FOV.
And THAT little idea might just reduce TRA Camera Blindness, Raiders? :thumbsup:

Lycantendencies
29th Jun 2007, 10:45
Okay. You've sold me. I come from standard naming conventions where the engine determines the volume.
I used to count them that way too, but with so many games ignoring that now and remakes, zeros, alphas, extra missions, tactics', -2s' etc not adding to the official count, it's become much more natural to see it as I do now.


As for "blind jumps," I had already said my piece on that. If you'd like to refute THAT, then by all means.

You'll forgive me if I missed other arguments you may have made, but I believe your main argument is get the pc version instead.

I could make arguments about how the console version should work and so on, but as you said earlier, it's kind of irrelevant in some ways to complain about what could, should be or was in the past, it's how it is and I should adapt to what I can do now.

With that in mind...

I used to have a PC. I used to upgrade it myself. After 5 years of serving me very well, something hugely malfunction and frazzled most of the internals leaving me needing an entire new PC.
I could not afford the money to buy parts and build one from the ground up again all at once and needed a computer for various reasons, from social to business immediately, so I bought a laptop from a catalogue that allowed me to pay in several monthly installments.

That laptop is all I have. It has 512 MB RAM and integrated graphics.
It's Windows and as such, full of vulnerabilities that require I run numerous anti virus and spyware protection to reduce the risk of infection, and as a multimedia PC is also full of neccessary media players etc, all of which use valuable RAM.
At it's lowest graphical settings, the TRA Demo did not run smoothly to the point it was unplayable.

To get it to work, I need a new graphic's card, more RAM or both, and as my laptop is under warranty, I cannot do it myself.
Instead I must have the company themselves or an approved company do it for me.
I contacted them a month or two back just about the RAM, and the price they quoted me was around $50 - $100 more than a brand new slim PS2.

It should also be noted that the time period it's gone, which was given to me as up to 28 days, would negatively impact the business end of my life and could actually see a subtsantial drop in income, and the fact it's a non essential upgrade as opposed to a manufacturers fault means I don't get a temporary replacement.

It's the UK, things are twice as expensive. I already dropped $60 on TRA.
Even if I were to return it and recieve my money back, the expenditure of $250 - $300 plus $50 for the PC game, and a loss of income is not a realistic option.

I agree that a PC is more than a console as a rule is innaccurate at best, but everyone has their own story, and the reality is that for many of us the upgrade needed for a PC is more expensive than buying a new console (which few of us need to do).
For others, for instance those who have Apple computers as opposed to Windows, the cost is even higher and less practical.

TheRidster
29th Jun 2007, 13:49
I used to count them that way too, but with so many games ignoring that now and remakes, zeros, alphas, extra missions, tactics', -2s' etc not adding to the official count, it's become much more natural to see it as I do now.



You'll forgive me if I missed other arguments you may have made, but I believe your main argument is get the pc version instead.

I could make arguments about how the console version should work and so on, but as you said earlier, it's kind of irrelevant in some ways to complain about what could, should be or was in the past, it's how it is and I should adapt to what I can do now.

With that in mind...

I used to have a PC. I used to upgrade it myself. After 5 years of serving me very well, something hugely malfunction and frazzled most of the internals leaving me needing an entire new PC.
I could not afford the money to buy parts and build one from the ground up again all at once and needed a computer for various reasons, from social to business immediately, so I bought a laptop from a catalogue that allowed me to pay in several monthly installments.

That laptop is all I have. It has 512 MB RAM and integrated graphics.
It's Windows and as such, full of vulnerabilities that require I run numerous anti virus and spyware protection to reduce the risk of infection, and as a multimedia PC is also full of neccessary media players etc, all of which use valuable RAM.
At it's lowest graphical settings, the TRA Demo did not run smoothly to the point it was unplayable.

To get it to work, I need a new graphic's card, more RAM or both, and as my laptop is under warranty, I cannot do it myself.
Instead I must have the company themselves or an approved company do it for me.
I contacted them a month or two back just about the RAM, and the price they quoted me was around $50 - $100 more than a brand new slim PS2.

It should also be noted that the time period it's gone, which was given to me as up to 28 days, would negatively impact the business end of my life and could actually see a subtsantial drop in income, and the fact it's a non essential upgrade as opposed to a manufacturers fault means I don't get a temporary replacement.

It's the UK, things are twice as expensive. I already dropped $60 on TRA.
Even if I were to return it and recieve my money back, the expenditure of $250 - $300 plus $50 for the PC game, and a loss of income is not a realistic option.

I agree that a PC is more than a console as a rule is innaccurate at best, but everyone has their own story, and the reality is that for many of us the upgrade needed for a PC is more expensive than buying a new console (which few of us need to do).
For others, for instance those who have Apple computers as opposed to Windows, the cost is even higher and less practical.

Ah the old computer vs console debate again!! I agree with what you say but not everybody does. Maybe we should all agree to disagree and move on with dignity;)

Demarest
29th Jun 2007, 16:20
You'll forgive me if I missed other arguments you may have made, but I believe your main argument is get the pc version instead.Nope. I pointed out that when you press down as if you're about to tell Lara to jump back, she dips down and the camera pans a little better. I mentioned that you can shimmy around the corner and take a side look at what WAS behind you. I mentioned that I was usually looking and planning my route BEFORE I got into such situations. In other words, there's MANY ways around it and all are quite acceptable and realistic.


something hugely malfunction and frazzled most of the internals leaving me needing an entire new PC.While I'm not saying that's not possible, having a quality PSU being fed by an UPS will reduce the chances. I used to work in computer repair and I only saw what you're describing at the hands of a cheap PSU. Which most of the time, when a PSU dies, it's a capacitor burning open, which prevent electricity from passing through and only the PSU dies.


It's Windows and as such, full of vulnerabilities that require I run numerous anti virus and spyware protection to reduce the risk of infectionSpeak for yourself. Risk of infection comes primarily from use. I use webmail instead of POP3 for example. I don't visit websites I don't know to be reputable (really only the most obscure of porn and warez sites are the ones that bother trying to install garbage on your machine. I could go on and on. Besides, even if you have such protective softwares, you can disable them during playing and most sites would recommend that you do anyways. Having them would impact hard drive space, not processing power.


as a multimedia PC is also full of neccessary media players etc, all of which use valuable RAM.Only when they're playing.

Since the defense for consoles and point that not everybody's story's the same was made under the erroneous presumption that my solution to the camera is to get the PC version, I'll leave it at that. That everybody's situation is different goes without saying and is something that not only have I not neglected, but actually conceded when NG pointed out a similar point.

Hippie
30th Jun 2007, 03:56
Hey, what controls the camera and how on the PC?

TheRidster
30th Jun 2007, 14:39
Hey, what controls the camera and how on the PC?

The mouse controls the camera unless you use a gamepad:)

Rog
30th Jun 2007, 15:40
Hi Roger,

I strongly suggest you "unlearn" to use the arrowkeys.
The arrow keys make NO sense because they are separated from the rest of the keys on the keyboard :)


I know it's hard to make a change but try it, give it some time (!)
and I think you might really like it :)
And then it's bye bye arrowkeys ;)
Swatcat, many thanks for the tips they are most welcome.

The basic problem with the steering (keys) is that I instinctively steer direction using my right hand. To use the mouse AND the keys at the same time would mean working the mouse with my left hand (agggggghhhhh!) or trying to learn to steer with the left hand. Do you see my dilemma?! Splitting the steering between left and right would be even worse.

But there is a more serious problem with the arrow keys. Assuming I keep the "up" key pressed for forward and steer right and left with the R & L arrow keys then the computer will not always allow the combinations and things get even more hairy!

When all is said and done right handed people will normally steer a joystick game with the joystick in their right hand......... won't they? Just seems natural to steer with the right. I'm just probably too old to change though I am experimenting with one or two alternatives in the safety of Croft Manor so perhaps there's hope for me yet!

Kind regards
Roger

Bahamut78
2nd Jul 2007, 17:07
The mouse controls the camera unless you use a gamepad:)

Before proceeding, hello everyone out there :D (I'm new here). I just bought TR:A last week, and already beat the game, but it left me with mixed feelings: it was good to play again the adventure that started it all, to re-visit St. Francis Folly or the temple at Egypt. But the new camera system has left me cold. The evil schemes plotted by camera views and the relative movements drove me mad at certain points, specially at timed events.

When quoting TheRidster, I must say I play on PC with a gamepad, more exactly with a MS SideWinder, and I can't control the camera because it hasn't that PS controller-like layout of joysticks. Even more, the game itself doesn't allow to remap camera rotation functions to gamepad buttons. For me, adjusting the camera with the mouse means to take my right hand from the pad, losing control over all buttons; in normal circunstances, that's not a problem, but when trying to reach a timed platform in the other side of a room under a minute and having to turn and turn again to perform precise jumps and tumble around, with a camera which fails on showing what's Lara facing in the very moment you need to... Well, it's infuriating, and it turns frustrating when you have to repeat the same sequence a lot of times. So, I agree with the thread matter: sack the camera dude!

TheRidster
2nd Jul 2007, 17:13
Before proceeding, hello everyone out there :D (I'm new here). I just bought TR:A last week, and already beat the game, but it left me with mixed feelings: it was good to play again the adventure that started it all, to re-visit St. Francis Folly or the temple at Egypt. But the new camera system has left me cold. The evil schemes plotted by camera views and the relative movements drove me mad at certain points, specially at timed events.

When quoting TheRidster, I must say I play on PC with a gamepad, more exactly with a MS SideWinder, and I can't control the camera because it hasn't that PS controller-like layout of joysticks. Even more, the game itself doesn't allow to remap camera rotation functions to gamepad buttons. For me, adjusting the camera with the mouse means to take my right hand from the pad, losing control over all buttons; in normal circunstances, that's not a problem, but when trying to reach a timed platform in the other side of a room under a minute and having to turn and turn again to perform precise jumps and tumble around, with a camera which fails on showing what's Lara facing in the very moment you need to... Well, it's infuriating, and it turns frustrating when you have to repeat the same sequence a lot of times. So, I agree with the thread matter: sack the camera dude!

Thats why you should use a gamepad with two analog sticks similar to the ps2 gamepad. Control Lara with the left one and the camera with the right. You will find it much easier than using a gamepad without analog sticks and a mouse!;)

Lectrician
2nd Jul 2007, 17:15
xbox 360 controller works awesom for this. There are still blind jumps though as the camera under any means of controll still will not pan all the way around in many places and you have to rely on simply knowing that a ledge is behind you.

Bahamut78
2nd Jul 2007, 18:01
Thats why you should use a gamepad with two analog sticks similar to the ps2 gamepad. Control Lara with the left one and the camera with the right. You will find it much easier than using a gamepad without analog sticks and a mouse!;)

Why should I spend money on a new gamepad if my current one works fine? Perhaps someone at CD should have thought that not everyone has a PS-like gamepad and thus should has to implement an option in PC version for remapping the camera rotation into pad buttons. With my current button setup, L and R buttons on my gamepad are useless; I could have "rotate camera left" and "rotate camera right" functions on them like in other games. I miss that option in TR:A :(

TheRidster
2nd Jul 2007, 18:10
Why should I spend money on a new gamepad if my current one works fine? Perhaps someone at CD should have thought that not everyone has a PS-like gamepad and thus should has to implement an option in PC version for remapping the camera rotation into pad buttons. With my current button setup, L and R buttons on my gamepad are useless; I could have "rotate camera left" and "rotate camera right" functions on them like in other games. I miss that option in TR:A :(

Thats a fair point but the majority of gamepads these days have the analog sticks so I suppose they have catered for that.:)

USGP
2nd Jul 2007, 18:52
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

I'd given up playing TR:A for a while, after playing the Sword of Damocles room and getting NOWHERE. Then I go and play today, skipping the game and chillin' in Lara's Mansion. I go to the workout room and work on getting the last relic...the only one I'm missing...and I fight fight fight fight the camera and the new grappling move (the backwards jump from wall run) and dang near gave myself an aneurysm.

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Now, I've been a TR fanboy for a long time. Since the first game. I've never lost faith in Lara ('cept for a few minutes during AoD :D), but now....sigh.

Ok ok, I'll probably give a while, try again, and more than likely I'll end up buying the next game. Dang it. :rolleyes:

I guess my only question is "Why can't they get a move that works satisfactorily in PoP work in TR?" I mean come on. The "wallrun, rope grab, jump to other wall" is PoP's bread and butter. If they're going to add a new moveset to Lara's repertoire, and make it necessary to progress, then at least make the move accessible. Part of the fun is figuring out where to go, not fighting the moves/camera themselves.

Just my 2 cents.

Bahamut78
2nd Jul 2007, 19:53
Thats a fair point but the majority of gamepads these days have the analog sticks so I suppose they have catered for that.:)

Anyways, that's my personal circunstance. The main problem is those sudden camera angle changes. I had to repeat 32 times the timed sequence, until I beat it, in the Great Pyramid because I lost time adjusting the camera with the mouse. If I would have the camera rotation mapped in a button, I should have been able to adjust camera as it changed angle. The problem of changing camera view and the movement direction with it was a real annoyance: instead of having, for example, a "jump from platform, slide, jump to pole, camera adjust with button to keep the facing, pole jump, pole backflip, jump,...", the sequence was in fact "jump from platform, slide, jump to pole, pole jump, stop at second pole, camera adjust with mouse to return to initial facing, turn and start pole roll, jump from pole,..". I don't know if I am explaining myself.

In short, try to adjust the changing-by-surprise camera with the right hand controlled mouse while in mid-air after jumping and having to press a button when landing (buttons being in the right side of the pad; you know, that part you control with the right hand... Wait! The right hand is on the mouse... Whops! Lara fell down the cliff. Sorry, Lara, I tried my best :whistle: )

TheRidster
2nd Jul 2007, 19:55
Anyways, that's my personal circunstance. The main problem is those sudden camera angle changes. I had to repeat 32 times the timed sequence, until I beat it, in the Great Pyramid because I lost time adjusting the camera with the mouse. If I would have the camera rotation mapped in a button, I should have been able to adjust camera as it changed angle. The problem of changing camera view and the movement direction with it was a real annoyance: instead of having, for example, a "jump from platform, slide, jump to pole, camera adjust with button to keep the facing, pole jump, pole backflip, jump,...", the sequence was in fact "jump from platform, slide, jump to pole, pole jump, stop at second pole, camera adjust with mouse to return to initial facing, turn and start pole roll, jump from pole,..". I don't know if I am explaining myself.

In short, try to adjust the changing-by-surprise camera with the right hand controlled mouse while in mid-air after jumping and having to press a button when landing (buttons being in the right side of the pad; you know, that part you control with the right hand... Wait! The right hand is on the mouse... Whops! Lara fell down the cliff. Sorry, Lara, I tried my best :whistle: )

I commend you for the way you did it! I could not have done it your way. Torture.;)

thecoolstinger
4th Jul 2007, 04:51
haha how is the ps3 cheap?? a 600 dollar console?? and what more if you dont buy a ps3 you cant play gran turismo 5 or the metal gear solid 4.

The_Hylden
4th Jul 2007, 08:33
Geeze, what a long debate. Reminds me of the good ol' days:p

The camera is an issue, but I've seen worse. For a game made primarily for consoles and then ported to PC, the camera should have been made to work better in spots, esspecially late i the game when it really gets wild. However, it's not debilitating in the end, just forces some extra time and patience to be taken. Of course, I haven't tried the times trials yet:p

I'd like to add this:

Bahamut78:

There should also be maybe a camera centering button on one of the shoulder triggers?? i don't know if yours has that or not, but it should. That doesn't always reposition the camera, but for running on walls, it does, for me, at least...

TheRidster:


Thats why you should use a gamepad with two analog sticks similar to the ps2 gamepad. Control Lara with the left one and the camera with the right.

Oh contraire, lol. Unfortunately, at least on my dual analog stick Logitec controller, there *is* no mapping of the camera control to the right analog stick. In fact, the stick does nothing. Clicking it's trigger button on the top, though, brings up the item and inventory/journal switching menus:p The only way to reposition the camera when the camera centering button on one of the left shoulder triggers fails is to take hand off gamepad and place it round mouse, then move the camera into position. Honestly, I still didn't get messed up on wall jumping 90% of the time, but it did take some maneuvering in time trials and definitely became a balancing act when she had to jump from pole top to pole top. So, yet, the camera needs work. is it a reason to say the game isn't great? No. It never became an issue tot hat degree, but it can be improved upon. CD will, I am sure. Legends, I agree, didn't have as much of a problem, so it's just something that needs a little tweaking. Just like the non-mapping-of-pause-menu-to-left-analog-stick-trigger issue:p Or, just have the option that should really be fundamental in letting people re-map the buttons on their gamepads. That's an oversight, and one that could have been more costly. I am surprised no-one's complaining about that more. Perhaps it's only happening on my brand of Logitec controller? Meh, anyway...

NaughtyGirl
4th Jul 2007, 11:36
haha how is the ps3 cheap?? a 600 dollar console?? and what more if you dont buy a ps3 you cant play gran turismo 5 or the metal gear solid 4.

we are talking about tombraider....

which is on PS2....

which most people have and spent max $250 for....

BUT....feel free to post a game ready computer that will need NO upgrades to provide a quality gaming experience on all games that you can buy for $600.

ps...why is it even STILL an issue? Some people like console, some PC...there's games on both systems....everyone's happy with the method they are playing it on

the original complaint is about the camera which is in the game, which is not a PC or console problem but a part of the game. Even though you can adjust the camera (again, on either system) it is, to many, an inconvience to be ready to jump or wall run with no indication that the camera is about to pan out and change your perspective and movement without warning. It can cause those stupid deaths which are frustrating and annoying.

The worse one is the Atlantis wall run with the poles, where the camera suddenly decides it's time for a side panoramic view. Well as I did not have the time or patience for a leisurely scenic episode, especially as change of camera equals change of diretion of movement so as I had been pressing the stick forward to move I had to adjust for the change in camera view, then try to jump to poles I could no longer see, all within my 10 second time frame!!!!

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Demarest
4th Jul 2007, 13:40
BUT....feel free to post a game ready computer that will need NO upgrades to provide a quality gaming experience on all games that you can buy for $600.

ps...why is it even STILL an issue? Some people like console, some PC...there's games on both systems....everyone's happy with the method they are playing it on

Does anybody else find it ironice that NG keeps asking people to drop it, but won't. And keeps saying to each their own, but continues to use untruths to lionize consoles?

Many people ALREADY have PC's. So at most, they're a $100 video card away from playing TRA. Then when Legend 2 comes out, they can already play that too. As opposed to the PS2 owners who will have to pay the $600 to get a PS3. Which doesn't count the money they've spent on alternative consoles, previous consoles, etc. These points have been made numerous times alread. But hey, don't let facts get in the way. :rasp:

CatSuit&Ponytail
4th Jul 2007, 13:53
****

Let's not make it personal.

And remember, making no response to a personal comment is perfectly ok, and in fact more wise.

NaughtyGirl
4th Jul 2007, 14:48
lol, CS&P...that's not fair!

:p I'm not known for my wisdom Cat...I like to be naughty and start a ruckus, heck I'm from Brooklyn! ;) but I can, again, say PAX and bow gracefully out of this thread. I know intelligent people that can read and comprehend have already noted the true "irony" :whistle:

TheRidster
4th Jul 2007, 15:57
Geeze, what a long debate. Reminds me of the good ol' days:p

The camera is an issue, but I've seen worse. For a game made primarily for consoles and then ported to PC, the camera should have been made to work better in spots, esspecially late i the game when it really gets wild. However, it's not debilitating in the end, just forces some extra time and patience to be taken. Of course, I haven't tried the times trials yet:p

I'd like to add this:

Bahamut78:

There should also be maybe a camera centering button on one of the shoulder triggers?? i don't know if yours has that or not, but it should. That doesn't always reposition the camera, but for running on walls, it does, for me, at least...

TheRidster:



Oh contraire, lol. Unfortunately, at least on my dual analog stick Logitec controller, there *is* no mapping of the camera control to the right analog stick. In fact, the stick does nothing. Clicking it's trigger button on the top, though, brings up the item and inventory/journal switching menus:p The only way to reposition the camera when the camera centering button on one of the left shoulder triggers fails is to take hand off gamepad and place it round mouse, then move the camera into position. Honestly, I still didn't get messed up on wall jumping 90% of the time, but it did take some maneuvering in time trials and definitely became a balancing act when she had to jump from pole top to pole top. So, yet, the camera needs work. is it a reason to say the game isn't great? No. It never became an issue tot hat degree, but it can be improved upon. CD will, I am sure. Legends, I agree, didn't have as much of a problem, so it's just something that needs a little tweaking. Just like the non-mapping-of-pause-menu-to-left-analog-stick-trigger issue:p Or, just have the option that should really be fundamental in letting people re-map the buttons on their gamepads. That's an oversight, and one that could have been more costly. I am surprised no-one's complaining about that more. Perhaps it's only happening on my brand of Logitec controller? Meh, anyway...

Really?? I wonder why yours does not map the camera to the right stick? :nut: I use the xbox 360 pad with my pc. I dont even have to change the controls. From my understanding most other analog stick gamepads work the same!

The_Hylden
5th Jul 2007, 03:03
Honestly, I'm wondering more why it *does* map the pause button to the left stick's trigger button. That's the one making me :nut: And not being able to change anything sucks... Yeah, maybe it's just this particular model, then... It's just a regular Logitech dual action controller, minus a rumble feature... Maybe I should contact Eidos' tech support... lol, though it's a little late to think of that, I suppose.

Rog
7th Jul 2007, 18:43
I defy ANYBODY to wipe out both Centaurs in the Tomb of Tihocan using a keyboard and a mouse!!

One or two other impossibilities include the completely illogical camera movements and repeated refusal of the game to accept jumps from a wall run in the direction selected ! !

A wonderful game with awesome graphics but flawed, oh so disastrously flawed in the control department.

And the camera man... well I've said more than enough both here and elsewhere already but like so many other people have also said it will always beg the question- why?

kind regards
Roger

Faye
7th Jul 2007, 18:53
I defy ANYBODY to wipe out both Centaurs in the Tomb of Tihocan using a keyboard and a mouse!!

Lots of us have done it, me for one. Did you think all the keyboard/mouse players all gave up at Tomb Of Tihocan? :p

Though I do agree that gamepads are probably superior to keyboard/mouse (I say probably because I have not actually bought a gamepad yet so I do not know for sure).

Rog
8th Jul 2007, 20:02
Lots of us have done it, me for one. Did you think all the keyboard/mouse players all gave up at Tomb Of Tihocan?


Well done is all I can say, don't know how you did it!! I just don't have enough (or long enough) fingers and have still to find a way to work mouse and keyboard at the same time, and as for the camera..... ! ! !

Once again, hats off to all you centaur-keyboard-warriors, I salute you all!

kind regards
Rog

Demarest
8th Jul 2007, 22:38
Well done is all I can say, don't know how you did it!! I just don't have enough (or long enough) fingers and have still to find a way to work mouse and keyboard at the same time, and as for the camera..... ! ! !

Once again, hats off to all you centaur-keyboard-warriors, I salute you all!

kind regards
Rog

You're running around, shooting at them. Which one or two keys for directions plus one for shooting. When they gaze, holstering your weapons is just one key. When they're charging, it is again one or two keys for movement and AFTERWARDS, one other one to shoot. It's a challenge to get used to, no question. But that's a timing issue, not the product of having to press six buttons at the same time :p

Icewolf77
25th Jul 2007, 20:46
Well the camera angles are very bad, thats for sure. Trying to jump and realizing that the camera turns midway and you have to use the opposite directions suddenly really is a huge pain. And sometimes you just jump in good hope there is something to hold on somewhere on the opposite side because you just can't see anything.

For the 2. discussion PC vs. Console:

In my Opinion its just a matter of taste. Some people just don't bother about things like better graphics or all-round functionability. They just want to toss in a game and play.
Others are very fond of technology and the abilty to use very different playstyles and controllers. I own a pc and a ps2, but i mostly use my pc to play games, i don't care if i have to use a keyboard or a gamepad, i can play good with both. But i just can't resist to use new technology and better graphics, so i just upgrade my pc every 1 or 2 years to play new games.
Thats not as expensive as buying a new pc or nowerdays buying a new console. And the ability to emulate most of my beloved console games is just the best argument for a pc. i'm able to play all psx games in stunning graphics because of the emulator options for picture improvements. I can play everything from the old Atari VC2600, C64, NES, SNES, N64, PSX and so on. Even a Gameboy is no problem to emulate. I'm 33 now and most of you guys don't even remember the VC2600 or even the C64, but i always love to play a little nostalgic games ;)

Nowerdays you can't use the argument of the giant screen - every LCD can be connected to the pc and you can play in HD quality on a 40 inch LCD. And consoles aren't as cheap as they where back in the old days. Upgrading my PC to kill a PS3 is cheaper than buying one.

my 2 cents.