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View Full Version : MISC. Current Patch (14.11.13) Balance Problems



Xaragoth
14th Nov 2013, 23:50
This is based on the matches played by a bunch of experienced Alpha players on this fine evening:


Auto-Aim on Vampires melee is back this patch it seems, but we felt it's actually different from before (may just be lack of Tuesday's aiming (it's problems/removal that day?)) and a bit too good. Without was bad, with is bad. Needs a bit of adjustment nerfs. Currently you can sprint and Vampires will just smack you in the back for the same distance and speed - unless you got the perk in which case you just laugh as you go full Road Runner. Even dodge rolling had little effect this evening. Especially since everyone was pretty good at what they do it became very evident that there is some work needed here.



After the Sentinel Cheese Combo has been nerfed now, we noticed that Tyrant's with Jump Attack (y u no name it Leap?) are actually doing the exact same thing in a skilled team. We had Crysed and Plux with Tyrants that used it and since both knew where to aim, the human team quickly got destroyed if they missed Knives or Bolas (which are really not easy to aim at a Tyrant in mid-air, even if you have experience with them.) While War Bow counters Tyrants to a degree, the current Damage is a bit much if two of them land on your face if you have no permanent War Bow available in your team. Might become less of an issue in a competitive team, but then again if you have crazy stuff like 4 Tyrants with Jumü Attack, you can't shoot them all down - not to mention in a lot of spots you can barely react before they land due to the area you can look.

Also 4 Hunters with Grenades are most likely also in need of some kind of nerf. Because the damage to themselves is nothing compared to the one they do to the vampires attacking them >.>

In general it's probably reasonable to slightly reduce the effectiveness of class stacking. We have seen it before in the Sentinel Duo/Triple/Quadra Divebomb->Wingflap. Now we slowly see other combos that are nearly as absurdly effective. Maybe reduce the damage of AoE when it's multiple hits of the same ability in a very short time?




Sentinel Divebomb Angle is a bit overkill on the nerfs applied to Sentinel from our experience. The other nerfs were fine, just revert the angle so they can be a little useful again. Right now they seem to go for Takeoff/Abduct a lot more, because they just get shredded if they miss the Divebomb and are too far away to Wingflap.



Provance Nerfs to Camp Spots seem to have utterly unbalanced humans current. Played a few games with very skilled people and in both cases we had a terrible human score and a high vamp score. Freeport has demonstrated similar issues (except for the Pier). Also there is still a few spots where you can just see for miles and those spots are usually so good that nobody wants to move anywhere else. The Well on Provance, the Pier of Freeport, the top of the stairs of the Palisade on Valeholm (which has a healing station) as well as the Gate-Edge on Valeholm.

Sentinel Grab at Freeport Harbor is annoying and stupid and needs to stop not dropping humans into the ocean and drowning them! If you need a reason just let it be noted that the harbor is really stormy and they can't swim well with all the stuff they carry :P Right now the Sentinels need to approach from the ocean and are wide open and can't really grab anyone - instead they turn into bolt/arrow-cushions. If they could come over the houses, they'd at least have a good chance to grab someone.




CC Chaining is a problem, especially with double Tyrants Jump Attack into Stun. You can hardly react to that at all.




I think I got all that was chatted/ts3'd about. If I missed anything, I am sure the others will post it.

hirukaru
15th Nov 2013, 00:15
First off let me say nicely written again Xara.
Second I agree

And to follow up a little bit on Xara his story about the jump attack from the Tyrant.

We know a earth shaking attack should stun a human, but the range of 500 is a bit to much.
Maby reduce this and give the humans a timer before they can get stunned again by a Jump attack?
This will probably solve the tyrant his OP skill stacking.

(ofcourse when four players will play tyrant this tactic should still be a killer, so nerfing it to the ground I dont recommend but when it is OP by two players it is in my opinion to OP)

I dont know how much the team reduced the angle from the dive bomb compaired to the first one?
But maby something in between would do it.
(even though I think a full dive straight down would be nice (massive impact, stun all around, stun self extreem long cause your head hurts)

Balantin
15th Nov 2013, 12:39
Personally I didn't have a problem landing Dive bombs, i just flew down close to the human and Dive bombed them point blank, but if your angle is weird, just dive into the side of a building, it will make your Dive Bomb eventually land next to the building since hitting walls doesn't interrupt it.

Giving humans a second or split second immunity to the "stagger" effect from an ability that was just used on them by another player would problably be a good idea, since what we saw happen multiple times in yesterdays session was when the 2 tyrants jumped in on us we would be stun locked for 3 seconds or so, and then we were down to about 300 health since we never got the chance to avoid any follow up attacks once the first one landed.
This could maybe be necessary for Reaver and Sentinel stuns such as Pounce and Wing Flap as well, I know you take reduced damage for a second or so while you are getting back up from a Pounce, maybe lower the damage of the second Pounce that lands on you while you are still getting back up?

Anyway, yesterday was a very good session, we got to play against equally skilled players for the most part and everyone kept a positive attitude and had alot of fun.
Hoping next tuesday will be this good too. :)

Strike5150
15th Nov 2013, 14:46
Damn, I was on too late and I didn't get in with you guys. Now I wasn't in your play session but I noticed a few things about your description of the events :). Otherwise I agree, its easier to play Vampires. I already know that if we break even on the vamp side we are most likely going to lose the game. On the other hand its OK if they are slightly unbalanced since you do get to play as both sides, downside there is that you may as well quit the second half of the map if you lose as vamps. Not exactly a good trend to encourage.

What is the range on the jump attack? Theoretically speaking if the enemy is using too many jump attacks you should be able to spread the team out and minimize the number of players they can get stuns on. If they are heavily leaning on tyrants than there won't be reavers in play, meaning being spread out a bit more won't be as bad.

Oh how I would love to drop humans in the ocean. I'm a little torn on doing this though, while cool I really think it would be really unfair. It's really easy to get a grab and even if they make me drop him he'll die. However, if I did get a grab and was going over the water perhaps some bonus dmg for making it to the waters edge? Maybe 100 extra. That would be alright I think.

Ultimately there are quite a few spots where the Sentinal runs into invisible walls, and can't fly over them even though they appear like you should be able too. I don't have any suggestions along this line but it would really be great to remove this type of caging. The burning house in that one map is another example of that. Don't have the map names down :(.

As Balantin already said as Sentinal you can dive back down and still land the dive bomb, its just harder to do now. Which I think was the point. It basically gives the humans a little more time to find cover from the dive bomb. I wasn't always successful in landing it, unlike before.

And don't forget the next playdate is monday not tuesday unless they accidentally messed up on the servers page.

Xaragoth
15th Nov 2013, 14:49
Personally I didn't have a problem landing Dive bombs, i just flew down close to the human and Dive bombed them point blank, but if your angle is weird, just dive into the side of a building, it will make your Dive Bomb eventually land next to the building since hitting walls doesn't interrupt it.

Giving humans a second or split second immunity to the "stagger" effect from an ability that was just used on them by another player would problably be a good idea, since what we saw happen multiple times in yesterdays session was when the 2 tyrants jumped in on us we would be stun locked for 3 seconds or so, and then we were down to about 300 health since we never got the chance to avoid any follow up attacks once the first one landed.
This could maybe be necessary for Reaver and Sentinel stuns such as Pounce and Wing Flap as well, I know you take reduced damage for a second or so while you are getting back up from a Pounce, maybe lower the damage of the second Pounce that lands on you while you are still getting back up?

Anyway, yesterday was a very good session, we got to play against equally skilled players for the most part and everyone kept a positive attitude and had alot of fun.
Hoping next tuesday will be this good too. :)

I did the same for Divebomb, but I don't think that's very smart. Because they will just instantly Bola/Knife your face. Right now the Sentinel is a bit too much at risk - compared to before where there was nearly none. It's still viable in skilled hands, as we demonstrated, but this is more with concern towards people who aren't as good and will have a harder time doing the combos.

Syst3mzero
15th Nov 2013, 15:14
I would agree with the majority of what Xaragoth said, I saw most of this too despite probably not seeing it used as effectively but I play in less experienced groups so the impact is a little lower and the execution is less well performed but the result is the same.
It does look like the humans now struggle more to keep the vampires at range and although its good that the vampires now seem close combat worthy unlike on tuesday the humans have a bigger issue keeping vampires at range, I would agree this is down to auto aim being too effective but then again on tuesday keeping the range was too easy by running and rolling backwards, my opinion is the rebalance was just a little bit too far in favour of the vampires (more specifically Reavers).

kardimond
16th Nov 2013, 23:49
Greetings, Plux here!

Since I've almost exclusively played Tyrant of the vampire-faction so far, I'll focus more on that. And 'cause many of the conclusion are already written here, I wanna describe the feeling of that gameplay from my perspective. Also notice, that I haven't played against double-jump-tyrants so far, so I merely can write from a tyrant's point of view.

First off - I think it's quite obvious, that it's hard to aim good jumps when using them for the first time. However, I feel like it got a fairly good learning curve and whats most important: due to the range and the challenge of proper aiming a perfect landing jump attack is incredibly satisfying. Also, positioning yourself in the middle of your enemy (in the case which is described by Xaragoth), is a fairly huge tradeoff and thats why it appears also necessary to me, that such an attack is relatively powerful.
Additionally, it's able to counter/negating the jumpattack mid-air by using for instance bolas or knives. And while it's true, that it's not easy to hit moving targets mid-air, it also takes some experience to land the jump attack spot-on (and even more to sync it with your teammates). Another point (already brought up by another writer here too) is, that it's an AoE-attack with attached possibilities of tactics and counter-tactics. Means if there are two tyrants or more in the game, it clearly lowers the chance for the humans to be picked individually by reavers or sentinels, which allows them to spread out more and thusly countering the tyrant jump attack. Now what I'm saying is, that the jump attack has a learning curve, is super-satisfying a player and allows for good counter-play (which is also super-satisfying as a human). In other words. I LOVE THAT SKILL DESIGN-WISE.

However, I do agree on the points and suggested solutions that are described in this thread. Firstly: the range. The range of the stunimpact that is. While I obviously appreciated its usefulness in the game, the stun-range was confusingly high. The reasons I found for that were 1st: I just dont expect the impact-range to be that high and am probably as surprised as the human, when I'm seeing his struggle-animation. 2nd: It's not communicated by the effect-animation that shows the stomped ground as you land. Its range is waaay shorter. (Well correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's what I recall).
Now to the second (big (sorry for the confusion)) point! - the stunlock on shortly following jump attacks. Simply put - I do agree that a short immunity or some kind of short diminishing returns would be a good solution here, since i can clearly see how frustrating it can be as a humanplayer to have the whole team stunned double-time, while being swarmed by vampires. I dont think that it would really lower the tyrant-experience, since I personally dont feel that it doesnt matter that much when you're jumping into an ongoing fight (since another tyrant obviously just jumped in before you). This kind of scenery is action-packed enough.


Regarding the removed/moved healing stations

I actually really like the changes and I love for humans to have to move more around the map - no matter which side I'm playing myself. Also while it's true that humans had clearly worse statistics on that day, I (as a human player now) felt that I myself could've played considerably better and achieve more by that. In other words: I didnt feel that the missing healing stations were really responsible for it. And I wouldnt want to see the that change reverted. Honestly I'm not even sure yet if it would really worsen the actual chance for humans at all. It could also be just something which needs time to adapt to - since until then everybody literally only knew the sweet-spot-camp-tactic. And while I had fun with that too, only one superior tactic probably isnt too exciting in the long run. That's why I'm curious as to what kind of changes you guys would like to see to strengthen the human-position (if its needed) but without reverting that change?

Psyonix_Corey
17th Nov 2013, 18:04
The Brute Jump is not supposed to stun on impact, only damage and slow. Brutes often follow up a Jump with a Ground Slam which DOES stun...

If Jump is actually inducing a stun on humans it's an oversight that we'll look into Monday.

Xaragoth
17th Nov 2013, 19:15
The Brute Jump is not supposed to stun on impact, only damage and slow. Brutes often follow up a Jump with a Ground Slam which DOES stun...

If Jump is actually inducing a stun on humans it's an oversight that we'll look into Monday.

We'll also keep an eye on it and try to figure it out. If I had to pin-point something, I think it has to do with the playing of the staggering-back animation seemingly locking down movement for a second there. Which works like a stun, even if it's not one.

Or maybe it's just the panic effect of two 300 pound vampires landing on your heads and the first one stunning, then the other lands and stuns as well.


Greetings, Plux here!
Regarding the removed/moved healing stations

I actually really like the changes and I love for humans to have to move more around the map - no matter which side I'm playing myself. Also while it's true that humans had clearly worse statistics on that day, I (as a human player now) felt that I myself could've played considerably better and achieve more by that. In other words: I didnt feel that the missing healing stations were really responsible for it. And I wouldnt want to see the that change reverted. Honestly I'm not even sure yet if it would really worsen the actual chance for humans at all. It could also be just something which needs time to adapt to - since until then everybody literally only knew the sweet-spot-camp-tactic. And while I had fun with that too, only one superior tactic probably isnt too exciting in the long run. That's why I'm curious as to what kind of changes you guys would like to see to strengthen the human-position (if its needed) but without reverting that change?

While I agree that we all could've played a bit better, there is still a few healing stations where moving them wasn't really necessary. In some cases it made for worse to assault camping spots. Some were needed (Freeport Harbor) others not (The one at the market place on Provance). Overall we'll have to see how it works out, but I think we all agreed something was awry. Might've just been the sudden change of layouts and tactics, but I figured I'd list it anyways.

Strike5150
18th Nov 2013, 12:14
Another note about the health stations. Could we have a on screen helper similar to how we can see our team members for the health stations?

I feel this would do two things:
1. I don't have to look at my minimap to figure out where the closest one is, I would also suggest that there is a way to tell if you can use it or not. Grey for you it being spent, green when it can be used.

2. It would encourage players to go find them, not only that they would realize when their teammates are rushing off to find one. A lot of the time I'm really low health and I need a health station so I run off towards the closest one. Teammates are often busy doing their own thing and they don't understand why I'm running over there so they don't follow. The thinking here is, why would you follow the turkey runnin off by himself when that would only make things worse for your team.