PDA

View Full Version : Seen it before



Taurus
8th Jun 2007, 23:03
Long term fan of Tomb Raider, but seem publisher might be missing the point.
TR: Legends great if a little short on levels (Croft Mannor great), now we have TR: Anniversary and it seems it's time to make the same mistake that Prince Of Persia 3 did and original Tomb Raider 2 made, the combat pain, hard to control and lacking in skill or thought.
KISS (Keep it simple stupid)
Why talk about Prince Of Persia 3, as it seems the game program seems to be VERY similar. Was not sure when playing TR: Legends, but sure now. As SPEEDKILL looks alot like new Adrenaline moves needed to kill big bosses.

If I wanted a combat game I would go and buy Dead or Alive or something similar.

L3ggy
8th Jun 2007, 23:07
So how is lara gonna defend her from animals and monsters and villains?

Notts Raider
8th Jun 2007, 23:21
Tomb Raider combat is about scaring the pants off you when its so silent, even your ear wax would melt. It's there to throw you off balance, which it does in droves. TR is not an action packed game, it's about exploring an emersive environment, getting frustrated :mad2: and solving puzzles

munchkin
8th Jun 2007, 23:52
Long term fan of Tomb Raider, but seem publisher might be missing the point.
TR: Legends great if a little short on levels (Croft Mannor great), now we have TR: Anniversary and it seems it's time to make the same mistake that Prince Of Persia 3 did and original Tomb Raider 2 made, the combat pain, hard to control and lacking in skill or thought.
KISS (Keep it simple stupid)
Why talk about Prince Of Persia 3, as it seems the game program seems to be VERY similar. Was not sure when playing TR: Legends, but sure now. As SPEEDKILL looks alot like new Adrenaline moves needed to kill big bosses.

If I wanted a combat game I would go and buy Dead or Alive or something similar.

And as with TRL i am convinced i'm playing a whole different game to most of these guys claiming to be "long term TR fans".....

a few little points, most of us who like TRL and TRA are long term TR fans, as in from 1995-6, and sad to break those rose tinted specs but TR1 had more combat in it than some folks seem to wish to see. Does no-one really recall the wolves, seeming never ending bats, bears, raptors, the bleeding TREX, gorillas, Crocadiles, lions, mummies, mutants, mooks (natlas/larsons men) etc?

Not one level went by without combat.

In adding "combat features" they are making it MORE challenging not less, making the combat more scary not less.

The first TR aside from the TRex nothing really scared me at all, this time round even the dam bears are spooky and shocking. And i am an uber survival horror fan, (IE forbiden siren, Eternal Darkness, etc proper scary).

beccaxx

Deekman
9th Jun 2007, 01:33
Maybe some of these people would just like to have a game they could put on auto-pilot and watch it like a movie.
If there were no challenge , ther'd be no point.

Paulraider
9th Jun 2007, 02:20
I was just round my mate house and see what anniversary looked like on the PS3, i was shocked, brilliant quality and on a HD as well
Anyway, have any of you noticed the manor. i think people forget that anniversary is the remake of the first tomb raider, 1996. i didnt even notice and my mate noticed, the pool hadn't even been done ( in legends its complete) they clal it time lapse in movies

I just think it's great that crystal dynamics had the sense to continue with tr in the first place, they obviously see life in it and made a new engine. legends is amazing and so is anniversary

Also you say about prince of percia. be thankful that dynamics didnt make the same mistake the res evil makers did with that remake. the speed is awful, compared to res evil 4

as i have said a few times on this board, be thankful for some mercies

Taurus
9th Jun 2007, 06:55
Seems alot of you a making my point for me, I have no problem with shooting things. But look at all the other TR games, this new "press the button for special move" is not tomb raider.
The bosses in Legends are fine, find what you need to do and do it (the basics of TR games).
Making the combat more complex just makes the game more unplayable.

Hands up all players who could have killed Trex or centaurs quicker given just guns and a place to shoot from (Like in Original TR game).

TR-AOD
9th Jun 2007, 12:44
Hands up all players who could have killed Trex or centaurs quicker given just guns and a place to shoot from (Like in Original TR game).


Hmmmmm perched on a ledge out of reach of the t-rex keeping my finger pushed down on the fire button, or running around trying to avoid the attacks whilst trying to get the t-rex to slam into a wall, spiked log and having to time my attacks / dodges. i know which i prefer. hey why bother having to press a shoot button at all, why not just use the level skip :scratch:

munchkin
9th Jun 2007, 13:37
Seems alot of you a making my point for me, I have no problem with shooting things. But look at all the other TR games, this new "press the button for special move" is not tomb raider.
The bosses in Legends are fine, find what you need to do and do it (the basics of TR games).
Making the combat more complex just makes the game more unplayable.

Hands up all players who could have killed Trex or centaurs quicker given just guns and a place to shoot from (Like in Original TR game).

dear me ....

The Trex in the original provided no real challenge once you'd found the ledge it was a doosy, and frankly it was BORING, the TRex in TRA is not about to get boring anytime soon, even after a few replays.

These new "special moves" are perfectly Lara, she is an adventurer, often just her and her wits and guns, she is going to be a bit more than just point and shoot, she is going to have these kinds of skills.

Now as a game designer, you have limited technology with which players can do these more realistic moves for someone like Adventurer Lara. So the choice is either do it all in fmvs which are fun but are not the player killing the TRex, or currently you have "special moves" so Lara controlled by the player can do the skills an adventurer of Laras ability and daring would have with the smoothness and efficiency.

Maybe in the future with better gaming systems and improved programming technology we will be able to entirly manually minus any "special moves we can do it as we like.

Now if you wish to go back to the dull and boring standing on a ledge taking pot shots at the Trex and not feeling the adrenelin rush, the acheivment of beating it fair and square, then go and play TR1, and be one of those retro gamers who do nothing but moan about games not being as good as they were back in the day. The rest of us will continue to devlope our skills to be better Tomb Raiders in game, and actually defeat the Trex without retreating to a far off ledge, which is hardly what someone as up for a challenge as Lara would do. ;) Admitedly it was by far the easiest and better way of defeating it in TR1 but it was startlingly dull, now it is not.

this is of course my point, and my pov, yours is of course different, vastly different.

interesting to note i adored and adore TR2 and you do not.....

beccaxx

Taurus
9th Jun 2007, 15:54
Seems programers and players might be missing the point, NO REAL SKILL in both cases of TR1 and new TR.
If you were playing for real you would be running in the other direction.
Unless you plan ahead and bring a minigun :) (See TR3)

A well programmed game and bosses like in Legends allow for a little learning before you die.
And you seem to have made my poitn for me "munchkin" is that you FIND a safe place and work out how to kill them. Yess Trex was easy in original TR for this reason.
Lara has enough moves to use skill to deal with bosses, not press a button at the right time. Right tools for the right job the basics of Tomb Raider.

est1856
9th Jun 2007, 17:09
Talking about seen it before, Lara doing the 'Trinity from the Matrix' landing on Natla's building roof. :rolleyes:

And when she found the old cans before going into St francis Folly I just thought to me self, don't say litterbug, she's going to say litterbug, and she did.:rolleyes: how corny :D

gopher666
9th Jun 2007, 17:09
Right tools for the right job the basics of Tomb Raider.

Rubbish, Lara has never brought the right tools for the job she has always found the tools after the event. ie, getting Uzis after killing the Kid. Tomb Raider is about getting by by your wits and skill. NOT by being prepared and bringing the right tools. If that was the case I would of mines for the killing aand a team of people with ladders.

The only person less prepared is Kold who brings a knife to a gun fight

rabid metro
9th Jun 2007, 20:05
Long term fan of Tomb Raider, but seem publisher might be missing the point...

i have seen topics like this before ... and i know the eventual outcome.

let me share this ... in TRA, the camera system does have its own personality.
at first i wanted to curse the camera because it wouldn't do what i wanted ...
when i felt like that, the game was very frustrating and i could find fault at every turn ...
after some reflection, having asked myself "why is the camera behaving this way?",
i noticed that the camera was mostly just trying to be friendly (providing a hint or optimizing a perspective, etc.),
even if this isn't what was on my mind.
i've learned (again) how to pre-empt or override the camera or let it do its thing to be helpful, when necessary.
now the game is "properly" frustrating and i've noticed/exploited a lot more game elements now that i'm not fighting the camera.
i guess my point is ... that while tomb raiding ... attitude matters. :cool:


They say that you owe it to yourself to have a good time playing games.
They say that tomb raiding is all about controlling yourself.

munchkin
9th Jun 2007, 23:40
Seems programers and players might be missing the point, NO REAL SKILL in both cases of TR1 and new TR.
If you were playing for real you would be running in the other direction.
Unless you plan ahead and bring a minigun :) (See TR3)

A well programmed game and bosses like in Legends allow for a little learning before you die.
And you seem to have made my poitn for me "munchkin" is that you FIND a safe place and work out how to kill them. Yess Trex was easy in original TR for this reason.
Lara has enough moves to use skill to deal with bosses, not press a button at the right time. Right tools for the right job the basics of Tomb Raider.


Well at least you got the topic title right, seen it Before :rolleyes:

Are you sure your an "old long time TR fan" you seem to be woefully ignorant of what TR actually entails.... for example, since when has Lara had time to figure it out from a safe distance; excepting the odd occasion, in general it is all about wits and reacting to each sitution often within seconds before certain death in the form of a spike pit, a blade trap a trap door a sliding jump centaur fireballs, dragon breathe (TR2), drowning, sharks, crocadiles, etc often with minimal equiptment.


And you seem to have made my poitn for me "munchkin" is that you FIND a safe place and work out how to kill them. Yess Trex was easy in original TR for this reason.

Well with the exception that there was only ever a few times when this occured in the first TR even less in TR2 and way way less in TR3 and TR4, and less again in TRC and TRL .... seems even Core changed the danger level as control technology even on the old grid system got more responsive. :rolleyes: So no i made MY point you will have to keep trying to make yours on your own. Which your really not doing a very good job of, as your getting most of your info wrong and even worse presuming to speak for other gamers, assuming anyone not agreeing with your take is missing the point. Shame on you. ****


becca, retiring ;)

TheAgent
10th Jun 2007, 00:24
munchkin, i think the point he/she is trying to make, is that why even implement this stupid move? OK the T-REX takes damage even if you cant do the dodge move, but later on, enemies are impervious to gun shot UNLESS you do said move.

As it stands, Tomb-raider 1 gave you the option to stand on a ledge and fire at will, with out fear of being killed by the T-Rex but that was the point, it was an OPTION, if you didn't want to use it, to get that Adrenalin rush, then you didn't have to.

By today's standards, there should be no reason why you HAVE to preform a certain move just to finish off a boss, why not just leave it the way it was but REMOVE The ledge, this forces the player to stand eye ball to eye ball with the T-Rex, then its down to the player to fire away and dodge its attacks until its dead, you would still get the same adrenalin rush, but with out the added frustration that a 3 to 4 button pressing combo would bring.

Another point you seem to be missing out on, but constantly say about, YES this is a Adventure game, so why bog it down with stupidly frustrating fights.

I want to Explore not get half way through a game only to be confronted by what seams like no way of continuing, because some game developer thought it was a good idea to have invincible bosses, UNLESS the player perfected a very hard to grasp move.

Its obvious from a lot of posts that its not a well liked move.

Grieyls
10th Jun 2007, 00:43
I really feel sorry the developers of games. They spend all this time making games more challenging to the response of fans who said the last game was too easy. Then they get flak from the same fans for making the next game too hard. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

In truth like any other art form whether you like a game or not is dependent on your own tastes. And I am calling these games an art form because they a form of creative expression. As is a movie, a book, or a painting... However I digress.

Anyway personally I only had one issue with Anniversary and that was that one shaft in the the great pyramid. Now that was frustration still I got through it eventually. Thus as a whole Anniversary for me was a great game, so much so that I find myself playing through it yet again. And yes I am dreading the great shaft when I get to it :p

munchkin
10th Jun 2007, 01:18
munchkin, i think the point he/she is trying to make, is that why even implement this stupid move? OK the T-REX takes damage even if you cant do the dodge move, but later on, enemies are impervious to gun shot UNLESS you do said move.

As it stands, Tomb-raider 1 gave you the option to stand on a ledge and fire at will, with out fear of being killed by the T-Rex but that was the point, it was an OPTION, if you didn't want to use it, to get that Adrenalin rush, then you didn't have to.

By today's standards, there should be no reason why you HAVE to preform a certain move just to finish off a boss, why not just leave it the way it was but REMOVE The ledge, this forces the player to stand eye ball to eye ball with the T-Rex, then its down to the player to fire away and dodge its attacks until its dead, you would still get the same adrenalin rush, but with out the added frustration that a 3 to 4 button pressing combo would bring.

Another point you seem to be missing out on, but constantly say about, YES this is a Adventure game, so why bog it down with stupidly frustrating fights.

I want to Explore not get half way through a game only to be confronted by what seams like no way of continuing, because some game developer thought it was a good idea to have invincible bosses, UNLESS the player perfected a very hard to grasp move.

Its obvious from a lot of posts that its not a well liked move.

Okay i presumed everyone here would know TR is a sub genere of the adventure game making it an ..... yes thats right ...ACTION ADVENTURE GAME. and no it is not a point i've missed out on. *sigh* :rolleyes:

When you've been here a while you will start to take less and less notice of the so called *majority* posts, most of them are trolls coming to complain for the hell of it, more still are multiple posts by members who can't seem to get their heads around the idea that they do not need to plaster the forums with the same point over and over and over again on 20 threads all identical.

Truth is most players will no doubt like the move or accept the move as gaming evolution and get on with their lives.

Then TR8 will be in the pipeline and sudenly its forum will be full of posts threatening undying hatred of eidos and CD is anythign resembling the "controls, special moves, hair, guns, shad of laras nose hair...." is less than how that individual gamer wishes Lara/TR to be.

So threads like this with the points being made using very inaccurate info, become a dime a dozen, and the only reason to respond to them occasioanlly is to stop these jokers presuming they have the right to speak for all "long time TR fans" when they do not. If someone wishes to speak for themselves thats cool, but once you get the "long time fan here..." messages it always turns into a "i love TR more than those who disagree with me...."

By todays standards why shouldn't one have the thrill of having to master certain moves or a certain move to finish it off? Again this is hardly a new concept in gaming history people, modern or back in the day its thrilling and adds new dimentions to gameplay. I accept this is only one POV but then i'm not trying to talk as if my view is the only one whcih matters and all players or developers who do nto agree with me are missing the point.

I guess i'm the only one who rembers with fondness the real old skool gaming of the commodore days now there was some real fun keyboard acrobatics or even further back the old atari or BBC days. And enjoys seeing these aspects of gameplay come back.


:rolleyes: bx

TheAgent
10th Jun 2007, 01:50
I guess i'm the only one who rembers with fondness the real old skool gaming of the commodore days now there was some real fun keyboard acrobatics or even further back the old atari or BBC days. And enjoys seeing these aspects of gameplay come back.


:rolleyes: bx

well your not the only one to have grown up playing the classic systems, zx81, commodore vic20, c64 and the rest, I've been a gamer for a very long time, i have played as many games as i can get my grubby hands on.

I played the first tomb-raider and can still remember the feeling i got when i was running around the levels for the first time, i understand what your saying about evolution in games, but sometimes i think games developers lose the plot searching for the "new" thing that is going to spark life back into things.

Levels have got shorter, bosses have got weaker, moves have got harder?

Frustration in a game back when the Commodore was about, wasn't because of bad controls, it was more to do with bad level design, the early days showed a lot of this as the technology was very new to everyone.

Tomb-raider had a very innovative design, i don't hate CD nor do i hate Eidos, because if i did, i definitely wouldn't be here.

Also, in reply to Grieyls, if games testing was done properly they wouldn't have this problem, games are not an art form, they are a form of entertainment, i mean do you got to the cinema to get entertained, or frustrated because you have to preform some strange gymnastics to get to your seat or you cant see the film?

the easy and hard bit should be assigned to the settings you chose at the beginning of the game, not something to do with how awkward the controls are.

Bampire
10th Jun 2007, 03:36
I personally think that this type of combat fits Tomb Raider, a lot. Doesn't matter where it's from. Yes, I miss the classic moves, but hell. Things change, and after playing TRA it's well worth the change. I'm just glad that I now have the original tomb raider, and the remake.

*Edit* Along with that, this is a said re-make, and they made things more complicated like all games are supposed to be. They seemed to make things more interesting with the new combat moves. Hell it took me.. Let's see.. About 6 levels to master the new combat moves, not much, but once you master those skills the game wouldn't be so frustrating or really hard at all.

Seriously, it took me.. 50 times (Almost that many times) to beat the T-rex... Oh, and T-rex's aren't the type to be attacking, unless they're starved, mainly they're scavengers.. But hey, I'm not making a topic about that, now am I?

Just get over the fact about the different combat moves and move on. Move on like all games have been.. Least they tried to put all the levels and whatnot back into TRA.

est1856
10th Jun 2007, 07:06
I really feel sorry the developers of games. They spend all this time making games more challenging to the response of fans who said the last game was too easy. Then they get flak from the same fans for making the next game too hard. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.



I must agree with you, they can't please all the fans all the time. I think they accept that though and just try to go with the majority, a recognised acceptable and popular trend at the time.

Taurus
10th Jun 2007, 10:35
Ok lets put this another way, who found Croft Mannor more fun then the main TR Legend game?
"OPTION" seems to be my point here e.g. it seems possible to kill Trex in 3 different ways, slowly (Shot by Shot), Making him run into things and new special move.
Centaurs on this other hand, there was no options, like in prince of persia 3 (2 guys sword & Axe). You had to do it the new way or not at all.
This what makes me think the program that runs TR & prince of persia 3 are the same likely same programs.

There has to be a balance, and speedkill system in prince of persia 3 killed the game. I hope they do not make the same mistake with TR.

Martin C
10th Jun 2007, 10:52
Oh come on now, the adrenaline rush move isn't really that hard tbh.

All it takes is a couple of practice attempts early on with the easier enemies you face to get the knack for it. As for why CD felt the bosses should require the move, well I'd rather a boss fight to be difficult to be perfectly honest. Just look at the boss fights in the Metroid series of games for example, really difficult and challenging boss fights that give you a pure sense of satisfaction when you nail them.

I felt that the boss fights in TR:A were just as good when I got into the swing of things. Makes me wonder what gamers (even some seasoned ones) want out of games now. And for the record I've been a gamer since around the C64 so I do know what makes a game enjoyable or not, and just feel that all this gripping against TR:A is pretty silly.

Martin C x

Capkeez
10th Jun 2007, 11:00
IMHO, I thought TRA was perfect, or at least to my standards. Not being able to kill the trex just by firing repeatedly at it made the game much more challenging. also, it forces us to learn the adrenaline dodge move. Quoting Lara in Legend, "It's a useful survival skill."


AND, i greatly enjoyed both the main game and the croft manor level in TRL. it served as a sort of "proper ending" to the game. it's natural for humans to find fault in everything though, so i have nothing to say about that.

Lo
10th Jun 2007, 11:21
Maybe some of these people would just like to have a game they could put on auto-pilot and watch it like a movie.
If there were no challenge , ther'd be no point.

It depends on the nature of the challenge Deek. Tomb Raider, technically, always came under the adventure genre but as the games progress they seem to be subtly shifting into shoot-em up mode :scratch:

In Legend one can't even really explore that much. One is almost driven along at a set pace. Lara can't even get off the motorbike to explore. If you stop to take a look around at the view you are told on the headset that you are lagging behind. Failure to pick up speed results in 'game over' and that to me is unsatisfactory.

I want to do things at my own pace, not be herded along. I also want to dismount from a vehicle whenever I choose and stretch my cyber legs ;) The bike ride is fun, don't get me wrong, but I wish I could get off once in a while and maybe walk it, despite losing the train and the mission!

I have always ditched the vehicle in previous games once I have played the level once for I like to check out the scenery that previously just whizzed past :p

Taurus
10th Jun 2007, 15:20
Oh come on now, the adrenaline rush move isn't really that hard tbh.

And for the record I've been a gamer since around the C64 so I do know what makes a game enjoyable or not, and just feel that all this gripping against TR:A is pretty silly.

Martin C x

I owned a BBC and a ZX81, and seem you did not learn graphic DO NOT make the game.

doctor willard
10th Jun 2007, 15:23
lara has allways been very acrobatic but some moves are un-realistic, like the jumping off other enemies in TRL. no1 could jump that high. but that doesnt really make tomb raider bad as such...does it?

gopher666
10th Jun 2007, 15:26
Umm Lo. The storyline kinda of means you need to go fast. Anaya is about to be killed and you want to stop for a cup of tea?