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exmachinad
8th Jun 2007, 22:39
Ok, by 'good' I mean 'above average'. Certainly it isn't a great game, but it isn't a piece of trash like some hardcore Soul Reaver/Raziel fans say, and it is a nice addition to the series, in my opinion.

For those who likes numbers, in the site Gamerankings BO2 earned a 71% score for the PC and 72% for the PS2 (ok, these are the lowest rankings for a LoK title, but they are decent enough anyway). In the site Gamespot, BO2 got a 7.6 grade, while Defiance got 6.9, and both were reviewed by the same person, Greg Kasavin.

Now to the game itself. The sucking blood animation and the need to suck blood from every foe is repetitive and boring. No way to hide this :nut:

Yes, BO2 uses an absurd whole lot of switches. Let's say, 50% of them are there just to delay the games progress. But, if you ask me, a decent number of them are somewhat interesting, in the sense that you need to stop and think for a while (just for a comparison effect, in BO1 all you do is to push things and hit switches - but, of course, the game is limited due to its 2D perspective -, SR1 used too much obvious box puzzles - probably my only complaint about SR1 :) - and Defiance lacks puzzles at all, unfortunately).

The fighting system, while somewhat awkward, does its job. The block animations are well done, Kain actually move his arms to block different attacks. The need to use the block to fill the rage bar isn't a great thing, but is interesting in the way that kain can use special attacks wihtout collecting magic or mana, his resource come from the combat.The mist form stealth kill is absolutely fun. Kain can use different kinds of weapons. The dodge ability from Kain is needed to be used from time to time and gives some variety to
combat. Also the enemies too dodge and block, so the fighting don't become just a pure hack'n'slash (what, unfortunately, Defiance became; there is nothing else to do beside slash repetitively hordes of enemies that pop up form nowhere).

The main theme from BO2 is great, and I was happy to see it was used in Defiance (well, Defiance recylced all music from past games...). During the levels, there's not much else besides an ambient music, but it helps the atmosphere of the game. Speaking of it, I do love the feel of the game. It has a dark, bleak atmosphere and ambients, the sound fits perfectly and in the city there are people talking around, which may seem to be a little detail, but it helps to make the city appears to be alive. The screams of the persons and how they try to run away when there is fighting is quite cool too. Loved to hear the line "Help me kind sir", brought from BO1.

The boss fights are interesting, and they owe a lot to SR bosses. U need to figure out what to do and the boss is defeated. While not being new, this is a nice touch to the game, and I miss some boss(es) in SR2 or some decent boss fight in Defiance (excepet for Turel and the Elder God).

The Dark Gifts are interesting and provides more things to do in the games puzzles or in the fights, and some of them actually can do both things (well, kind of, like the Jump and the Telekinesis that can be used on foes before teh fights effectively beguin). Also, I feel more free to play as I like because I can long jump whenever I want, different from Defiance where there is the need to use the red spots.

The plot isn't so elaborated like in BO1, SR2 or Defiance, but is reasonable, and has a bit more of things happening than in SR1. Of course, the whole presentation of the first Soul Reaver gives another dimension to the plot, but this is talk for another tread. ;) .

Anyway, the dialogue, though bland most times, has some strong moments and very good lines that I"m not going to post here or this post will get way too big.

Concerning the plot itself, the conclusion of the 'traitor' Umah and Kain encounter is smg I wasn't expecting, and has some emotional weight. Besides this, there is the the relevation of the true identity of the Beast and the reason to the fact why the Sarafan r giving glyph energy to the poor - the Sarafan Lord just want to kill them all. Some small details maybe, but they add to the story. BO2 had Umah, who is a cool character and one of the few females that has some importance more than just being a boss to kill. Also, we had the introduction of the mysterious Seer and the Eternal Prison, interesting elements that could be explored in a possible future sequel.

Now, one of the bigger mysteries of the universe: Vorador being alive. :D Sure, Janos also appeared, but Defiance later explained his presence, and the Defiance team were going to explain Vorador's as well, but they ran out of time. In my personal opinion, this kind of thing (show smg aparrently impossible and later explain it) is a fitting touch to the LoK series, for it relies heavily on twists, betrayals and time travel. LoK has a quite complex plot that I do think that a fragmented narrative, like it was done in movies like Memento, 21 Grams and The Prestige, just to name a few, fits perfectly with the storyline and the feeling of the series.

Like Turel, for example. He appered in the end of Defiance, though we do not know how or why - Raziel still needed to kill him and the developers did not know how to make it happen :lol: . We can only theorize that he was brought to the past by Aizmuth, but the series did not explained it. (Some dev said it wasn't explained in Defiance so it could be covered in a future game and, personaly, I think it is exactly what happened to both Vorador and Janos in Blood OMen 2 - Janos later explained in Defiance).Ok, the Vorador from BO2 also has a distinct personality from BO1, but since we do not know how or why he was ressurected, we still need an explanation for that as well. And there's that line from Kain: "Reformed sado-hedonist..." that hints smg. Many points in the Lok timeline/mythos whatever need some theorizing. Everything isn't clear yet. Rigid continuity is something not applicable at all to the series. So I'm patient :)

All in all, I think Blood Omen, while being the weakest of the series, is still a good game, and a good LoK title. Thanks for your reading! :) :o

exmachinad
8th Jun 2007, 23:11
Just to rectify: in fact I think Defiance is the weakest LoK game. The plot is very well elaborated, but the repetitive hack'n'slash gameplay, repetitive level deisgn, lack of puzzles and annoying camera angles really bring the game down to me.

FearGhoul
9th Jun 2007, 02:11
Yeah, I think people are too hard on Blood Omen 2 as well. I thought it was fun. I also loved the dark comedy in it. Of course, Blood Omen also had quite a bit of that.

Irmok the Mad
9th Jun 2007, 03:22
BO2 has always been a good title to me. There was never a doubt in my mind about it. I liked it better than Soul Reaver 2. It was my first 3D PC game. I played it a hundred times, and I'm going to go play it again.

FearGhoul
9th Jun 2007, 04:53
I rate it above Soul Reaver 2 as well. Soul Reaver 2 had so much potential, but it was obviously rushed so we didn't get all the Reaver forges and the cool enemies they talked about. I wish so much that Soul Reaver 2 could have been fully completed.

WraithStar
13th Jun 2007, 23:35
I love BO2 :D You already got nearly all of the reasons why, so I don't have much to add. I have trouble ranking games because I like different things depending what mood I'm in. Having said that, I think that BO1, BO2, and SR1 are the best. SR2 was obviously cut down and I didn't like the combat, although the reaver forges were really great. Defiance had way too much mandatory combat, and I didn't like how Vorador's personality changed from BO1. Any differences between BO1 and BO2 can easily be explained by Vorador's death and ressurection, as was already mentioned. However, Defiance is supposed to be taking place at the exact same time as BO1. In BO1, Vorador was the ultimate badass vampire god who didn't waste his time with the human cattle because they were beneath him. In Defiance, he was a broken old man who lost all faith and hid in the swamp :( Anyhow, back to BO2, I still haven't gotten bored of the blood sucking animation :p

FearGhoul
14th Jun 2007, 03:09
Of course, this is a different Vorador we see in Defiance than in Blood Omen since history changed. I wish they made him wear that vest from Blood Omen in Defiance though.

RainaAudron
22nd Jun 2007, 09:02
I am really surprised that some people like BO2, I can´t say it was absolutely bad, but I just didn´t enjoy the game like SR1/2...The bad graphics, boring combat..long but empty levels...do you really like this?

Sharkmerwood
22nd Jun 2007, 12:34
I love Blood Omen 2, to me it's full of characters that have personalities of their own. (I actually felt sad when I killed Marcus) The playing environments are cool and gothic a very victorian feel to them. I know the playability and controls become easy once you master them. The plot is good and keeps you with a few unanswered questions which gives you the thirst for more Blood Omen. This is Definately my favourite of all the Lok games and one I go back to again and again.:)

exmachinad
24th Jun 2007, 02:39
I am really surprised that some people like BO2, I can´t say it was absolutely bad, but I just didn´t enjoy the game like SR1/2...The bad graphics, boring combat..long but empty levels...do you really like this?

Well, the posts above explain why some ppl actually enjoy it..

Anyway, this kind of comment just rectify what I said: most people that bashes BO2 aren't true fans of Legacy of Kain mythos, they just like Raziel and Soul Reaver. Period.

You don't even comment about BO1 you just talk about SR1 and 2... :sigh:

In fact, I like much more to PLAY BO2 than SR2. OK, SR2 has a elaborated, clever plot, but it is more of a movie w/ some interactive parts (the 4 reaver forges plus Janos retreat) than a game. Sure, plot is the crucial to LoK, but SR2 had too much lenghty cinematics, too close to one another and w/ quite some dialogue that could be removed to make the game a bit more fluidity. So little replay value, a stripped down, streamlined version of SR1 - and SR1 was a great game becasue of its great presentation, 'cause it relied too much on boring, repetitive, obvious box puzzles. SR2 could've been great if it was fully completed as it was intentend, but it is game that screams "rushed!" evertime I play it, more than any other LoK title for me.

Raziel67
24th Jun 2007, 09:32
I feel the need to put my pennies worth in. I am a huges fan of the series and are currently playing BO2 again. This is a very good game and I think some of you Raziel fans miss the point. It's all in the title LEGACY OF KAIN. There are some really good ideas and game play with BO2, it is also interesting to see just what Kain got up to between BO1 and SR1 now that history has been changed. This I feel only adds to the overall story. If there is a new game I say bring back the Wolf from BO1 and Charm from BO1&2.

RazorBladder
24th Jun 2007, 09:48
New to the boards, just revisited the legacy of kain series and am rekindling that old obsession of mine.

Quite honestly, I have noticed there's some pretty baffling tribal behaviour with oldskool Blood Omen Vets (such as myself) and the people that were introduced to the series with soul reaver.. What the hell.

Personally I enjoyed BO2 quite a lot, in agreement with most of the points already stated.
I enjoyed the darker mood that was set, I often got the feeling that as time went on, the legacy of kain series became more child friendly in a sense (to chase sales perhaps) and completely detached itself from the dark atmosphere in BO1+SR1.

The only thing that bothered me was the repetitive combat.

It's an under-rated and over-looked game for definate.

The DarkOne
24th Jun 2007, 12:27
I think BO2 is a great game, it has a complete plot of its own while relating to the rest of the series, the graphics weren't bad as some say, they were the same as SR2's graphics.

The only things that bugged me about BO2 was Vorador's unexplained (up till now) appearance and his changed looks and the fact that Kain is much less powerful than he was in BO1.

rross46
9th Jul 2007, 00:40
This game fell short of what I expected from a LoK game. Clearly the budget was far more restricted than the other games. It is to excuse my French "half arsed" almost. Aside from the voice acting which can never be faulted, the rest falls short of good for me.

The story isn't too bad...but I wouldn't call it good. It didn't have the same epic qualities the others had. The graphics weren't upto standard and the gameplay was appauling, especially the combat system which was doomed as it relied too heavily on blocking, come on, Kain is a vampire badass and this didn't do him credit. Some of the abilities were interesting which had to be said but overall this fell short of my expectations. I was so dissapointed with it.

shlmysfb
31st Jul 2007, 21:29
I liked BO2, about the same as SR2. My only complaint was the personality inconsistencies - Vorador's personality changes are explainable, but not the Hylden Lord's. In fact, the Hylden Lord in BO2 was my least favorite character of all - he's gone from being the cruel and clever villain in BO1 and Defiance to being a self-righteous twit who talks too much.

Aside from that, though - yeah, the dark atmosphere was brought back, and that's what I liked best. It's also nice for Kain to explore a new setting - being in a city and having to interact often with humans gives new perspectives on his personality.

I also think it's fitting that Kain isn't as powerful in BO2 as in BO1 - better for the storyline to have the hero working up from the bottom. That's probably why SR1 had a new hero - they didn't want to use the now all-powerful Kain.

Hopefully in a future game they will tie the BO2 events in more clearly with future events. For example, we don't know what happened to Vorador at the end of BO2.

Irmok the Mad
2nd Aug 2007, 17:27
Wait, you mentioned that Defiance lacked puzzle? What about Vorador's mansion? I had a SR1 nostalgia attack when playing that level.

The DarkOne
2nd Aug 2007, 21:42
Defiance is a great game...........its only setback which is major btw is the camera.

alepu
16th Aug 2007, 12:46
If you are a true LOK fan, then you only pay attention to the dialogues and story of each game. And a strong story is what BO2 lacked.

RainaAudron
4th Sep 2007, 08:42
I am a true LOK fan - I just don´t like BO2 like other games in the series...this doesn´t mean that I don´t play it of course..
But you are right, I played SR1 first, then SR2, BO2, Defiance and BO1 as the last, so I like SR more than BO.
The problem about BO2 is, that it could have been much better than the result...when you compare the graphics to SR2, BO2 looks very bad IMO.

Hound
5th Sep 2007, 13:15
Well I have read so many bad reviews and comments from so many people about BO2 that I thought I'd never buy it. But reading this thread, I think it's good to know that some people actually enjoy it and point out the good points of this game. It doesn't look as bad as what I had read all over the internet got me thinking. And now it sounds to me like a pretty nice game to play. I think I'll actually check it out for myself and see.

Irmok the Mad
10th Sep 2007, 18:00
Well I have read so many bad reviews and comments from so many people about BO2 that I thought I'd never buy it. But reading this thread, I think it's good to know that some people actually enjoy it and point out the good points of this game. It doesn't look as bad as what I had read all over the internet got me thinking. And now it sounds to me like a pretty nice game to play. I think I'll actually check it out for myself and see.

It's a game worth buying. The PC version lacks the glowing whisper effect and the vertex shader effects from the Charm spell but it's still all good.

Shrykull_the1st
7th Oct 2007, 13:46
I love playing BO2... After Defiance, it would be the game that I would most re-play. I don't know, I like the diversity in it, how you start in the gutter of Meridian, climbing up to the higher parts of the city, the Canyons (love this level, one of my favourites), the Eternal Prision, the Wharves, and even the alien city of the Hylden across the sea!

The music in it, excellent. "A question of faith", the main theme, "The house of my enemy"...

That feel, as exmachinad said, of people talking in the street, is great and fun.

The combat, come on, you just have to make it interesting! The amount of weapons you have at your disposal, the different ways you have to torture the ones who stand in your way. I like it! Be creative! :cool:

The things I don't like about the game, which is sad because if those had been improved it would be a much pleasant game, are the character models and the animation... The models could have been much better, they could have easily kept Kain's eyes yellow as they always have been, Janos's feet, the fingers in the humans hands, etc. About the animation, it has some parts that are embarassing. The lip sync, the characters are limited to move their mouths repeatedly with the same movement, even when they're not talking!! like Umah in the begining of the first level. Their hands also move repeatedly. You know, all that... One thing I've also found very odd is when you kill Magnus, when Kain aproaches him to finish him, the action just freezes out of nowhere! They just stand like that and keep talking.:confused: Another example is when you're fighting Faustus, when he's going across the tunnel to the next room, he starts turning himself to his left and the turns all the way to his right!:lol: Very bad...

Appart from those bits, I love the game.

Tes
11th Oct 2007, 14:23
I dare to disagree with you on BO2 being a good LoK game. It's an overall good (nearly above average) game, I'll agree to that. But in my opinion, BO2 as an LoK title is severely lacking.

I'm at the moment replaying all the LoK games, especially BO2. I've been banging my head against the wall trying to figure out where Umah's character really fits in. :mad2:

BO2's gameplay is alright, I guess. Though it still feels a bit rocky in some places to me. Switch puzzles get as annoying as block puzzle and the combat system still has me grumbling a lot more than the other games.

I can honestly say I do like the music. It's slightly different from the other games, though not any worse for it; but no better either.

As for the characters... well... Kain's voice acting was brilliant as ever and he was mostly true to his character, I think. But some of the lines they had him say really didn't seem to fit him at all. Gestures he made seemed childish and off.

I think Janos and Vorador underwent a personality change to fit the story. Vorador too humble, Janos too arrogant. It didn't make me very happy.

Faustus/Marcus/Sebestian/Magnus were ok, but nothing overly brilliant... Kain reaction to killing Magnus had me go 'blergh'.

Umah is a character with little personality and absolutely no past. Her voice held little emotion and her gestures were pointless; she just moved her arms for the sake of moving them. With a lot of imagination you can fill some of that stuff in and speculate as to her character. I think she's just a prop: Tell Kain what to do in a toneless voice, that's supposed to be sexy for the male folk, and get herself and others into trouble. CD, you owe us a past and personality on Umah! ****

Seer/Sarafan Lord... Meh, could have really done something better. Neither impressed me much.

The whole story and the city of Meridian wasn't really all that interesting for me.

I just had really really really expected a lot more from a Blood Omen. On the bright side, at least CD didn't screw LoK as much with BO2 as Ubi did PoP with WW *shudders* Now that was a nightmare that made me swear off one of first gaming fandoms.

mr question
11th Oct 2007, 17:31
i enjoyed all the games, i dont think theres a good or bad version because all the story of all of them makes me enjoy it and the voice acting, even if the button pressing and some combat can be repetivie and boring, it does not affect me so much

Kaizainiel
12th Oct 2007, 17:31
I think it's main problem is that it does not fit in with the rest of the series. I don't like the opening FMV with the the depiction of the pillars destruction or the fact you don't visit the pillars like the other games, I don't like the modernization like the industrial quarter or the glyph batteries ( I didn't like the light bulbs in SR1 either ), I don't like the level layouts rather then free roaming either.

I also want to know how the Hylden lord survived the reaver at the end of BO1.
I really like SR2 and Defiance except for the lack of innovative bosses and puzzles.

theshadowcult
10th Dec 2007, 23:14
ok, a couple flaws... why do you guys assume that Kain and Raziel are the only ones time traveling?

If Moebeous (Spelling? ) can do it also, why not Vorador and Janos and the others...

'They' do try and kill Kain in BO1 numerous times...

Why do you all believe Vorador was ressurected? its been quite a while since i have played BO2 but there is no mention of this in the other games?

Isnt it possible tht the vorador who dies in BO1/Defiance is actually a Vorador from the future?

As games in and of themselves, BO2 and SO2 are both crap, as with Defiance, the story is the only reason those games are any goode at all.. you guys forget that the Story of the LoK serious is one of the best in any game ever, and so it kinda of overshadows the actual games themselves.

BO1 is still my fav, simply because i played it first, i am sure i would feel the same about SO1 if it was my first, but either way both of those games were actually goode involved games irrespective of the storyline.

But most importantly, BO2 was crap... BO1 and SO1 both had two different Lead roles and two completey different game styles, then we get a dumbed down version of SO1 in SO2, then we get a CLONE of SO2 in BO2... while true BO2 is not a terrible game it is by far the worst in the series. if they had at least made a dumbed down version of BO1 as BO2, it may not have been as bad... but for Kain fans, we got a Soul Reaver game with Kain replaceing Raziel as the lead role...

EDIT: i should point out that i know the thread is getting stale, but its not too old yet :D

exmachinad
13th Dec 2007, 23:02
Personaly, I played BO1 first of all. Nice story, but an utter crappy gameplay, there were 2D games at that time far more fun and interesting to play.

Only after I have played SR1 I went back to BO1 and found it to be a bit more interesting, but it is due to the plot alone, and to the great, great presentation of SR1 that gave me more interest in the series.

The cool thing about SR1 (after plot/presentation :) ) is the (more or less) open-ended world, it really gives the impression of being exploring a WORLD, and not only a few parts of it.

IMO, SR2 had the best puzzles of all series, I still have fun playing it, too bad the game is way too short and the feeling of 'exploring a world' is completely gone, we just come and go in the same venue all the time. SR2 could easily be the better game of series if the devs had more time to polish it and develop more content.

I enjoy BO2 for the motives that I list in my previous post. Cool dark atmosphere, badass Kain, boss fights, ppl talking in the city, Umah, it has levels that actually do look different and such...

But Defiance... really, it is SO sad that it just feels like a rushed clone of Devil May Cry recycling everything in the series, like the music. Plot superb, but only in the second half of game IMO, the first half feels like just fill in.

Overall, Defiance is way too much repetitive, most of the levels look alike, it completely lacks puzzles and atmosphere too. The devs could at least have used more tunes from previous games instead of just a handful of them. If Vorador acts different from previous games in BO2, he does so in Defiance too, he is... too humble and helpul. I just don't feel I'm playing a LoK title with Defiance :(

Worst of all, Defiance had Amy working on it, BO2 don't. So I'm much more forgiving of BO2 faults than Defiance, since the team on BO2 was all new to the series, and Defiance team wasn't.

exmachinad
16th Dec 2007, 03:15
Some things I forgot.


Faustus/Marcus/Sebestian/Magnus were ok, but nothing overly brilliant... Kain reaction to killing Magnus had me go 'blergh'.

Marcus, Magnus and such were there just to be killable bosses, just like Raziel brothers in SR1, Dumah, Rahab... In both games they didn't add anything to the plot, but I agree that sometimes they could talk a bit less in BO2 :p


Umah is a character with little personality and absolutely no past.

I think she's just a prop: Tell Kain what to do in a toneless voice...

Hmn... I agree Umah personality was not explored / developed during the game. But see the Elder God. From a mere guide with no past in SR1 he was 'promoted' to the uber bad guy :cool: And we still need explanation about what exactly he is, if he is truly a god, if he had something at all to do with Raziel's remaking... so many things to be covered.

And I like her voice :nut:


I think it's main problem is that it does not fit in with the rest of the series

IMO it fits, but it explored new grounds, so the reason so many ppl don't quite like it I think. And ofc, it left things opened to be covered in future games (Janos and Vorador alive, for instance - Janos being explained in Defiance). There are things in Defiance that needed explanation but we didn't get it, so a possible future sequel has a lot to put togheter. :D

I liked the 'modern' setting of Meridian, and the "sci-fi" technology of the Hylden, it brought new elements to the series.

I found very interesting that in the later levels it is hinted that the Hylden may have helped the human evolution / modernization. One of the Hylden says smg about the Hylden helping (or smg like that) the humans back when they were apes living in caves. :D It is a interesting point that could be explorated too.

If one stops to think the Vampires also have some "sci-fi" power. You see, they banish the Hylden to another dimension. How sci-fi is that ? :cool:


...I don't like the level layouts rather then free roaming either.

I really like SR2 and Defiance except for the lack of innovative bosses and puzzles.

:scratch: Well, Defiance don't have any free roaming as well. Straight linear levels with no room to explore... and worse, it uses the same levels (the reaver forges) a lot of times. BO2 at least isn't that repetitive.


I also want to know how the Hylden lord survived the reaver at the end of BO1.

Well, he is in Defiance too :D Some speculated that since he was possessing Mortanius he could not be truly killed, for his body was in the demon dimension in the end of BO1. And he mentions smg at the end of BO2 about how the prison in the demon dimension also grants the Hylden imortality.


Well I have read so many bad reviews and comments from so many people about BO2 that I thought I'd never buy it.

Bad reviews mostly from Raziel hardcore fans, or ppl thet were introduced to the series with Soul Reaver. Look on gamerankings, it has a lot of reviews with grades around 70%.


Kain is much less powerful than he was in BO1.

Yes, and in Defiance too. Where did he drop all those cool powers from BO1? :scratch:


Wait, you mentioned that Defiance lacked puzzle? What about Vorador's mansion?

I hardly call lightning dark orbes a puzzle... it's just too little, too late, as the saying goes.


Defiance is a great game...........its only setback which is major btw is the camera.

I wonder sometimes how drunk was the person who designed the camera's angles.

But, IMHO, Defiance is way too freaking repetitive. Slash, slash and slash waves of same enemies in the same levels (both Raz and Kain wandering in the same Reaver forges? :mad2: What a lazy job CD). And the same tune playing almost everywhere in the game...:whistle:
Defiance isn't sooo bad, but I was expecting a AAA title and ended up with a half finished game most likely rushed by Eidos :(


...when you compare the graphics to SR2, BO2 looks very bad IMO.

The facial animations are much better in SR2, no doubt. But I prefer the textures of BO2. Anyway, overall I like the look of both games.

theshadowcult
17th Dec 2007, 06:30
But, IMHO, Defiance is way too freaking repetitive. Slash, slash and slash waves of same enemies in the same levels (both Raz and Kain wandering in the same Reaver forges? :mad2: What a lazy job CD).


yes, but the idea of two different people walking the same ground centuries apart, is still a goode concept.

ammon
19th Dec 2007, 11:42
Quite honestly, I have noticed there's some pretty baffling tribal behaviour with oldskool Blood Omen Vets (such as myself) and the people that were introduced to the series with soul reaver.. What the hell.

Personally I enjoyed BO2 quite a lot, in agreement with most of the points already stated.
I enjoyed the darker mood that was set, I often got the feeling that as time went on, the legacy of kain series became more child friendly in a sense (to chase sales perhaps) and completely detached itself from the dark atmosphere in BO1+SR1.


the very first LOK game i got was Soul Reaver - i'd never heard of Blood Omen and didn't even know it existed! :eek: (then in got SR2, and it wasn't till after i got BO2 that i managed to get my grubby mitts on BO)
but i love playing BO2! because out of all of them (maybe, except SR) it's the easyist and most enjoyable game to play. and it's dark and broody and kain is bad! (like he was in BO! and that's what i love about the BO side of LOK, just being dark and an antihero - which raziel was originally but it changed to a goody in SR2 and i don't-know-what in Defiance)
so i don't think you're being abit fair to those that were introduced to LOK through SR

i have to admit that if i had to play a LOK game it would be BO2 - because i was playing BO2 and SR2, i noticed that while BO2 was easier and faster to play - and it'd be over before you know it - SR2 felt like it was dragging and slow and you could have a holiday everytime a cutscene played :rolleyes: but the way the story unravelled in SR2 was more gripping then that of BO2 - which you basically knew what was going on from reading the booklet - the only thing that got me was Umah and everytime i watch kain as he says "and now, you've left me alone" i always go "awwh" cause he looks like he was crying then he's Sarafan-slashing :D And the ability to smack the cats and rats in BO2 is hillarious! (don't get me wrong, i love rats - i just find it funny to smack in the game) and the people that talk to each other and kain (my favirite one is the Gate Man in the Lower City
"Restricted area. This is for night shift workers only"
"i am the night shift"
"tell me, who do you work for?"
"i work for no man"
"move along and stop wasting my time"
"we'll meet again, soon!"
and then you get the password
"you again! i told you before, workers only!"
"i work for Duckets Traders, now, let me throught"
and then you run the lowly human through - that's fun
and the fact that there are 'extra' cutscenes in the game if you don't do something - example; don't kill Sebastian and let him destroy the Nexus Stone "We shall die together Kain!" he screams before being squashed by the machinary above, then you die :D
Blood Omen 2 is my favirite - and Defiance rates a close second because of the graphics, the camera angles that make everything look so hugh! (yes, i agree there are problems with it (as i didn't see the cracks in the Water Forge seals because of it)) and playing SR Kain!!!! - but the Cemetary and Citadel levels i think are boring to do! and you get to fight with your self!! and if you cheat, you get to fight both Kain and Raziel at the same time!!(while you play a second Raziel o.O)

Andarthiel
10th Jan 2008, 12:54
Can't comment too much about this since I never played BO2. Yes, shock horror and all that, it's the only LoK I haven't played at all. I want to though but it's impossible to find in shops these days, maybe eBay is the solution. Defiance was a refreshing change in my opinion, true that the camera was awful but it really got out of the puzzle thing and started to turn down the Devil May Cry path in a way.I would have liked to see more weapon variety though especially from Raziel instead of using the Soul Reaver all the time.

theshadowcult
13th Jan 2008, 04:16
what do you mean? what Devil May Cry have you actually played?

neither game have anything in common with the other?

if you mean the combat? it wasn't any different to the combat in BO2/SO2?

ammon
16th Jan 2008, 09:46
i think Andarthiel means that there are more combat moves in Defiance then in the previous LOK titles (where as before you just basically slashed 'em to shreds, now you can smack 'em up into the air or mash 'em into the ground - like DMC's Upper Cut :D ) and it makes the characters feel more 'bad' and butt-kicking........or it could just be me babbling :confused:
for, come on, if you had SR's combat in D it wouldn't be as good would it ^.^ (althou BO2's Stealth Kills are good :D )

"SO2" ??? what's "SO2" stand for? ^.0

RainaAudron
17th Jan 2008, 09:31
Ammon: it is clear that he meant SR2

And by the way, I like SR1 combat the most. You could use so many weapons and methods how to kill vampires. The most enjoying of all the games:thumbsup:

Sparkus816
18th Jan 2008, 16:34
Which weapons are you refering to Raina? The piece of fence, pipe, or torch? Here is a fun little trick,jump over most of the enemys and beat the game killing as little as possible. Personally I think Ive killed under 10. Anyways I dont know why so many of you guys credit Amy Henning with Lok. Sure she invented the Soul Reaver story, but it was Dennis Dyack and some other guy(super knowledgeable fan jump in here) that created the Lok story originally. Although the BO2 story was a little corky, does not mean that it was all that bad. We get introduced to the Hylden, which I think are the ultimate vampiric foe. I really dont care if Amy returns or not, not saying that she isnt a good writter or anything, but I dont believe she is as essential as everybody thinks she is. However no Tony Jay, a little ouch there. Besides that, Bo2 Brought back something very lacking from Soul Reaver, action. The first Blood Omen was definately an action Rpg with some very limited puzzles. Soul Reaver focused mainly on puzzle solving,(TOMB Raider on Nosgoth crack). The end result was a very unfinished feeling game. With little AI, lack of real combat, I think Soul Reaver had less action in it than Tomb Raider. Alas the seies got way better in its sequal, but I cant believe anybody would call it the best in the series. In Blood Omen2 the game focused more on combat and killing, which is why I enjoyed it more. I hope in the future if we get anymore LOK games, they focus more on the action, and less backtracking. Now if we can just get some of those guys that worked on Ninja Gaiden over here..Oh ya one person who should not bne forgotten is Simon Templeton. With his voice just about any writter could make a descent LOK game.

RainaAudron
18th Jan 2008, 22:53
Which weapons are you refering to Raina? Soul Reaver focused mainly on puzzle solving,(TOMB Raider on Nosgoth crack). The end result was a very unfinished feeling game. With little AI, lack of real combat, I think Soul Reaver had less action in it than Tomb Raider. .

I was talking about that you could choose any weapon you found unlike in Defiance where you were forced to use only the Reaver. Or the strange system in BO2 where you lost your weapon after switching off the console..

What´s wrong with puzzle solving? Many people didn´t like Defiance mainly because it was a combat oriented game instead of puzzles (which were really missing :mad2: ). At least for me, constantly trapping the player with barriers in a room full of enemies is just boring.
And SR is a combination of exploration, puzzle solving and combat - what´s wrong with this?

SR1 is an unifinished game? In which way? By the terms of gameplay it satisfies me the most of all the series.

Lack of real combat? I can´t see what you mean...

And I don´t agree that SR1 has less combat than TR. Can you prove your statement?

Sparkus816
19th Jan 2008, 23:28
Ok Raina if your idea of of weapon varity is a peice of fence, pipe, or gimpy blowtorch, than Blood Omen 2 would blow your mind! Soul Reaver story was well done, the voice overs were some of the best. But being able to go through without killing a single creature save one, for a telekenisis spell? Soul Reaver action was built for Gothic Tomb Raider fans. Atleast in Bo2 the action was ficious, and fast pace. Its that kind of in your face action that a vampire or wraith has to have, in order to survive mortal attacks. Also there was no need to go out of your way to utilze any spells gathered. The same four vampires to kill either by impalation or ignigtion..I played on for the story alone. But the combat YAWN:( Maybe Im just a gamer whos more old school in having a real need for action in game,someone who likes to think, but can school you in a sword fight.****

RainaAudron
20th Jan 2008, 12:17
Ok Raina if your idea of of weapon varity is a peice of fence, pipe, or gimpy blowtorch, than Blood Omen 2 would blow your mind! Atleast in Bo2 the action was ficious, and fast pace. Its that kind of in your face action that a vampire or wraith has to have, in order to survive mortal attacks. Also there was no need to go out of your way to utilze any spells gathered.

Actually, I have BO2 and I think that BO2 combat system is the worst from the series - incredibly boring IMO. Kain dogdes so slow in comparison with Raziel...And for what reason you dragged your weapon with you in BO2, but when you loaded the saved game, it wasn´t there??? :mad2:

The_Hylden
20th Jan 2008, 22:58
Yeah, but his claws also did the job just fine:p

But SR2's, especially, fighting was better, imo. They both are *kind of* similar, but Raziel could dodge much faster, and even be *behind* his opponent, from facing them head on, in one arcing dodge. Crazy-fast, and completely in-keeping with how one would love to be able to dodge in and hit in my style of martial art. But, either one is fun. Kain could dodge pretty fast, but not to that extreme and I think that most of the enemies later, having to wait for their attacks, blocking like 10 hits in a row (especially the Hylden), seemed a bit weird. BO2 does allow for a great addition to that, the grab and add-on of special moves:) Those are great. Grab without weapon: choke, choke, backhand slap across the room, heh, or just toss after choking. With a straight sword, or similar type of weapon, grab, hit in face with the butt of the sword/weapon either 3 times, or twice (which you can punctuate hits with your own gems like, "Take! That! You ugly..." etc., etc.:p), and *slink!* impale through the chest. And, of course, the axe, or huge Klingon-esque thing, same as the straight sword, except the finishing move is a chopping off of the head.

Good times, all around:p

Nice additions, esspecially if one of those pesky humans dared hit me (I mean Kain:p) in the back, or get in a shot at all. Payback hurts:p

Sparkus816
20th Jan 2008, 23:35
The varity of weapons AND stealth kill is what really did it for me in Bo2.You can be really creative and sneaky! No Im not saying the combat was the best in series though, but the sneaking was way cool! I loved getting a bunch of Sarafan together in the mist and picking them off one by one, helpless to defend themselves!(Not to mention the gory sensation of ripping a still beating heart out, or jamming a sword through someones throat...sorry rambling:rasp: ) In all due fairness though ,SR2's combat was a far step than the original. But SR1 yawnn..:whistle:

ammon
23rd Jan 2008, 11:13
i thought it was some one at Silicon Knights who made Kain? (being how Silicon Knights is created at the beginning of BO for creating him).....


*jumps into Combat Arena* :D
raziel is the fastest when it comes to dodging (SR, Defiance - he didn't seem that fast in SR2) and kain is slower in BO2 when he comes to dodging (which is why i never do, except for the 'un-blockables') but he was faster in D when he dodged in Mist-Form (which i like ^.^)
but i believe the reason kain is so slow is because i think he's based more on strength then agility - which is why raziel would win in a dodging contest, because he's more agile.
when it comes to weapons, BO2 does stand-out because of the Kill Moves - the only Kill Moves you have in SR is impaling, igniting, throwing (water, spikes, sun) but it doesn't mean to say that SR is bad, because being able to take your weapons from anywhere is a nice touch (so BO2 and SR are equal in that regard)
and in both games (even SR2) you can sneak up behind your victim and pummel 'em to death - which is satisfying because you feel so clever "ha ha, i'm invincible!" then you get smacked from behind by someone creeping up on you :p :lol: - but you can't do that in Defiance, which really annoys me :mad2: , why did they only give you the options of sneaking and running when you can't sneak up on anything (oh wait, maybe a Slough if it's busy - or any of the other enemies (Spec, Material) if you can get them stuck on something or run away then come back, but most ...all, of the time they know you're there! - you don't feel very sneaky in D....) in the previous games (erh, BO not included as you can only run in Wolf Form or with a Time Spell) you could walk (slow, normal, fast), jog (normal, fast) and run and sneak!! - just having that variety of movement is nice :D
combat...Depends on what you want both characters to be able to do ((not counting spells)in BO you're just slashing with your weapon, whichever it maybe (even in Wolf Form, it's just slashing, and you can do sod-all in Mist ^.^)/ in SR you have slashing, dodging, impaling, throwing, igniting, jumping, swimming, exploding (reaver) (do you count TK? :confused: ), 'crouching'/ SR2 has the same as SR with beheading, kicking, blocking/ BO2 has blocking, dodging, jumping, 'un-blockables', beheading, impaling, gutting, 'bashing', throwing, slashing, igniting.../D's got rolling, jabbing, slashing, jumping, dodging, bashing, swimming..... ...(do i put the TK's in any of them ???)...
i suppose it all comes down to what you think is best- cause in a way, there all good...

those Stealth Kills in BO2 are great aren't they ^.^ and picking them up by the neck and chopping their heads off IS satisfiying! (i especially like it when a Glyph Knight yells "taste my blade!" and you yell back at the screen "taste MY blade!" and run him through and he gives a girly-squeel when he dies ^.^ - it's just the thought, a big muscley man that squeals when he dies ^.0 can you imagine kain doing that? :eek: )

Sparkus816
24th Jan 2008, 02:45
Your totally right Ammon, Bo2's stealth kills ruled! I think it was a very positive step in the series, by taking a common hack n slash and giving it a little more depth. I mean even in Defiance, they brought the series back to more of a hack n slash. At least in Bo2 there were usually more than just one way to kill a foe. If they make a new installment, I seriously hope they bring back stealth kills!!:D

dumah's wraith
25th Jan 2008, 19:48
More than one way to kill a foe? What, you mean like the option of stealth kill (which I admit I love) and Dark Gifts? And if there's no mist? You have to attack them, block for about fifteen minutes until your rage meter fills enough to use a Dark Gift, use it, hope it works, then start from the beginning? BO2'S combat was boring.

Now, SR1.... Glyphs. Impaling on a spear. Telekinetic bolt knocking opponents off cliff or into fire or water. Igniting with a torch. Spear throw from twenty feet away. Exploding them with the Reaver. Setting fire to them with the fire Reaver Projectiles Stunning them, then throwing them onto spiked walls. Q.E.D.

P.S. There's no way your kill rate is under ten. I know, because I usually try to avoid combat.

Sparkus816
25th Jan 2008, 21:53
Surely you cant say that Sr1's combat was more envolved than BO2? What about the the varity of weapons each with their own signigture moves and kills? You have mentioned the stealth kills and dark gifts, which made this game special to the series. What about dodging an enemy and grabbing them by throat, either decapitating them or impalations? What good is finding the glyph spells unless your some kind of completest, if most enemies can simply be avoided? Oh I have completed Sr besting under 10, perhaps you should step up your game.:rasp:

dumah's wraith
1st Feb 2008, 22:20
Yeah, I'm not much of a gamer, and the only glyph I bother to get is the Force Glyph.
Your kill rate is under ten? Prove it. List them.

Stealth kills were good, but they only really worked in mist. My big problem with BO2 was all the blocking you had to do to fill the rage bar to use the Dark Gifts. It got boring after the first five enemies.

Sparkus816
5th Feb 2008, 09:56
Ok in Soul Reaver on playstation at least, the only eniemies you have to kill are the ones, that block you in, two at the begining at Razs turf, two when Kain destroys the soul Reaver, and the teleknisis guy, and a couple here and there when you put the pipes together. Yawn... As far as the dark gifts go in BO2, ya they were great! However I really didnt reliy on them to best my foes,(except through the later levels) I found a quick shift and a grab usually did the trick. I really liked how all the weapons mostly had different kills to them as well.

TheWatcher
8th Feb 2008, 03:35
I got to thinking about something recently and I can't recall if I've brought it up here before or not, so here it is. There's been speculation on what's become of Janos after he was thrown into the demon dimension, but Kain did throw the nexus stone in before Janos got thrown in by the Hylden lord. Perhaps Janos never went into the demon dimension. Perhaps the gate closed before he went in. That's what I like to think happened.

It would kill any possible exploration of that line in a sequel, but which of the games hasn't had material cut from it? :rolleyes:

dumah's wraith
10th Feb 2008, 22:28
I can't be bothered checking to see if your right, Sparkus, so at this point all I can do is acknowledge the fact that you're a much better gamer than me. I still prefer SR1 to BO2, though.

Sparkus816
11th Feb 2008, 07:33
I ve been sucked into God of War series lately anywayz, I respect your opinions, but I cant say that Soul Reaver was better than BO2, however I know that alot of people were drawn into SR because of its gothic Tomb Raider qualities.

RainaAudron
13th Feb 2008, 07:57
I ve been sucked into God of War series lately anywayz, I respect your opinions, but I cant say that Soul Reaver was better than BO2, however I know that alot of people were drawn into SR because of its gothic Tomb Raider qualities.

You see, I have played GOW1 once and that was it - it just wasn´t enough interesting for me to play again...There are so differents likes and dislikes of people that it is hard to say which game is good or bad in general...

Gothic TR qualities? I like the 3rd person camera but that doesn´t mean it is a game just copying TR.

ammon
13th Feb 2008, 11:42
i originally got Soul Reaver because you played a vampire!! - in no other game on the Playstation could you play as a vampire.
that was my main reason, the other, because it WASN'T Tomb Raider! (i hate tomb raider grrr!!!!) and it looked so creepy and gothic and dark and the story was compelling and the bosses were imaginativly brilliant! :D (i love Melchiah :p even now, he still scares me when he 'creeps' and moves ^.^)(eventhou Silent Hill terrifies me more! :eek: :whistle: )

dumah's wraith
13th Feb 2008, 21:21
I hate TR. The control system was annoying and there was no story at all.

theshadowcult
16th Feb 2008, 11:09
i originally got Soul Reaver because you played a vampire!! - in no other game on the Playstation could you play as a vampire.
that was my main reason, the other, because it WASN'T Tomb Raider! (i hate tomb raider grrr!!!!) and it looked so creepy and gothic and dark and the story was compelling and the bosses were imaginativly brilliant! :D (i love Melchiah :p even now, he still scares me when he 'creeps' and moves ^.^)(eventhou Silent Hill terrifies me more! :eek: :whistle: )

err... i think you missed something... not only do you NOT play a vampire in Soul Reaver, but there are other vampire games on Playstation... most importantly of which is Blood Omen

Sparkus816
16th Feb 2008, 22:02
Thats what Im talking about, Sr was nothing like BO. Man you couldn't even drink blood! Who wants to suck little light balls? Anywayz, I ve played Sr2 recently, although much improved over Sr1, BO2's combat was a way smoother ride.

ammon
20th Feb 2008, 08:57
err... i think you missed something... not only do you NOT play a vampire in Soul Reaver, but there are other vampire games on Playstation... most importantly of which is Blood Omen

what you have to realise, is at the time i was only just beginning to get into Playstation (before that, i didn't even know it existed! :eek: (and if we hadn't have moved, i wouldn't have known about it) ) and had no idea that Blood Omen existed either!! (yes i saw the credit on the SR game but i didn't know it was refering to A GAME - it wasn't until SR2 that i realised that BO was a game and not until after i got BO2 that i managed to find a copy of BO)
so, to me, BO did not exist
and it's only NOW that i've managed to get into Castlevania
(so you see, i have come in very late to the Playstation era)

and you DO play a vampire - as raziel is refered to as a VAMPIRE WRAITH and he was a VAMPIRE LIEUTENANT before that (who cares if he didn't drink blood...)

Phantasm
23rd Feb 2008, 00:37
I've just started playing Blood Omen 2,the only other Ive played in the series was Blood Omen 1.So far I am VERY dissapointed,This game just doesn't have the same 'feel' I liked the Medieval atmosphere of BO1.Granted it is 200 years later,so that's understandable.But also Kain feels different,the dialogue is different,it doesn't have the same clever wording as BO1.

And I absolutely HATE Umah,she feels so foriegn to the original story,and she looks too futuristic.

I do however like the diversity of the humans you encounter,whereas in BO1 they all had the same lines.

I just don't feel the same Vampiric/Medieval/Magick aura in this game that made me love B01 so much.BO2 seems so mordern cliche vampire movie-ish to me.

I ordered Soul Reaver 1 and hope this will be more fitting to BO1.

Sparkus816
24th Feb 2008, 00:55
First I would like to welcome Phantasam to the ongoing Legacy of Kain fan club..lol ok.. As far as the series ever going back to that Action Rpg feel Phantasam, Im afraid that the series never quite made it back. The Soul Reaver1 was alot like tomb Raider,(except for the excellent story and voice acting), however the Ai and combat really sucked! There I said it! Sue me. However, the Soul Reaver series gets better in the sequal. Bo2, definately had its faults, dont get me wrong. Yes Umah was a horrible character, but watching her get her throat ripped out by Kain was satisfying! I could watch her die over and over, kinda like when Moebius gets his head lopped off in BO! Oh blood squeezing out of your smitted foe is way more satisfying than watching a little light ball fluttering around! I mean isn't this a vampire story? However Phantasam, it getts a little better in Defiance.

theshadowcult
24th Feb 2008, 23:16
Phantasm, it is unfortunate but, the games themselves do not get any better after BO1 and SR1. However the Plot line and Acting FAR outway the down sides of the games and you should look into playing them all... in order. However BO2 can really be played anywhere between BO and Defiance, as it has no real place. You don't even have to play it... if it were not for the fact that you already have :D

Hopefully developers will take notice of the Castlevania remake for the PSP and note that old gameplay styles are still just as valid for today as they were in the 2D days...

The way i see it, BO2 should have used the same Gameplay as BO1 and in defiance, switched gameplay styles depending on which character was being controlled... and don't say it would have been to difficult that way, because there are mods for the source engine where one player plays in a FPS view while the other runs the game like a top down RTS game.

Linikratyo
28th Jul 2008, 13:56
The first game of LoK I played was BO2. At the time I really loved vampires and when I saw this game where you saw a vampire killing a human knight was tres cool!! :D Later I played Soul Reaver 2, Defiance, Blood Omen, Soul Reaver... The thing I liked much about Blood Omen is that Kain tells his opinions, he shows how he more and more becomes vampiric. Kain's character DEVELOPS. He didn't really developed in BO2 and Defiance. I think if this would have been added too BO2 then the storyline would improfe and then it might have been the best of the series!!!! :cool: :D

theshadowcult
30th Jul 2008, 04:10
The first game of LoK I played was BO2. At the time I really loved vampires and when I saw this game where you saw a vampire killing a human knight was tres cool!! :D Later I played Soul Reaver 2, Defiance, Blood Omen, Soul Reaver... The thing I liked much about Blood Omen is that Kain tells his opinions, he shows how he more and more becomes vampiric. Kain's character DEVELOPS. He didn't really developed in BO2 and Defiance. I think if this would have been added too BO2 then the storyline would improfe and then it might have been the best of the series!!!! :cool: :D

He does Develop in Defiance, but its more of a reverse process, where he goes from being on top of everything, to realizing that he still made mistakes... however, Raziel is definitely the one who does all the developing after Blood Omen 1...

as a side note, i don't believe the latter games are as gruesome, funny or as Gothic as the first either. Though just as clever in their presentation of time.

EDIT: not to mention Bloodomen was longer, and had more to do outside the main story, plus had more features... :/

VipericVampire
13th Apr 2009, 13:37
I loved BO2, and there are too many reasons why. :D

Linikratyo
13th Apr 2009, 21:43
He does Develop in Defiance, but its more of a reverse process, where he goes from being on top of everything, to realizing that he still made mistakes... however, Raziel is definitely the one who does all the developing after Blood Omen 1...

as a side note, i don't believe the latter games are as gruesome, funny or as Gothic as the first either. Though just as clever in their presentation of time.

EDIT: not to mention Bloodomen was longer, and had more to do outside the main story, plus had more features... :/

which made it great. God, I would love to see a Blood Omen with ultra high graphics......

VipericVampire
14th Apr 2009, 02:02
which made it great. God, I would love to see a Blood Omen with ultra high graphics......

You might be able to, cause Jake Pawloski said he might try to convert it to 3D and there's a Russian team working on that too.

Linikratyo
14th Apr 2009, 09:42
You might be able to, cause Jake Pawloski said he might try to convert it to 3D and there's a Russian team working on that too.

I knew that Jake Pawloski was working on it but a Russian team??

VipericVampire
14th Apr 2009, 20:34
Yeah, PM http://www.youtube.com/user/DallasXIII for more.

ammon
15th Apr 2009, 13:13
which made it great. God, I would love to see a Blood Omen with ultra high graphics......

i've always wanted to see BO done in 3D and it would be brilliant if someone did do it :D ...but, there will always be comparissons with the original - for example Medievil: Resurrection is a PSP remake of the original PSX Medievil, with better graphics but some of the jokes weren't as good as the original, the bosses were ridiculas, some of the levels were screwed (and the enemies) and you had to complete one annoying mini-game in order to progress (and i hated doing it!- i didn't like being forced into doing that stupid mini game just to finish the actual game!! :mad2: ))
so, unless they stick to the original design with the tiniest of changes - then it should come out well :p
really, why can't CD do BO? they did remakes of TR!? and if not them, why not SK???
instead of always bringing out a 'new' Tomb Raider game - why not do Blood Omen and get new people intrested in the franchise (who will then want to get the other games to continue learning about the story :thumb: )
.....i don't know, Eidos and Crystal Dynamics seem to have gotten stuck with what the hell their suppose to do....

Dallas XIII
15th Apr 2009, 14:57
You might be able to, cause Jake Pawloski said he might try to convert it to 3D and there's a Russian team working on that too.

Yeah, PM http://www.youtube.com/user/DallasXIII for more.

Now I see what's this about. I had a few questions like "how AM I doing with a BO remake". Now people, you misinterpreted Viperic's words. Yes, I know a thing or two about this project, but I'm not a part of it. I just co-own the hosting account at which the project's site (http://reanimation.wheel-of-fate.ru/ - use html-translators) is housed.

The project is called "Reanimation. Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen" it's separated and independent of the similliar project of Jake Pawlosky, and it's in very early stage of development. The development currently involves only Russian fans, since, well, the author don't speaks English.

For those who interested in joining in Reanimation: I'll check out if someone of the team speak English and post here. For any further questions contact me on YouTube, I'm not an often guest here.

VipericVampire
15th Apr 2009, 20:00
Now I see what's this about. I had a few questions like "how AM I doing with a BO remake". Now people, you misinterpreted Viperic's words. Yes, I know a thing or two about this project, but I'm not a part of it. I just co-own the hosting account at which the project's site (http://reanimation.wheel-of-fate.ru/ - use html-translators) is housed.

The project is called "Reanimation. Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen" it's separated and independent of the similliar project of Jake Pawlosky, and it's in very early stage of development. The development currently involves only Russian fans, since, well, the author don't speaks English.

For those who interested in joining in Reanimation: I'll check out if someone of the team speak English and post here. For any further questions contact me on YouTube, I'm not an often guest here.

I'm sorry people misinterpreted my words and caused you trouble. :D

Oh and btw, did Jake Pawloski say if he was going to work with the Russian team to make BO1 in 3D, or was I hallucinating? :p

Dallas XIII
16th Apr 2009, 12:17
No, theese are two different projects.

VipericVampire
17th Apr 2009, 00:19
Oh, then I WAS hallucinating. XD

Spike991
11th Jun 2009, 06:08
Blood Omen 2 is the only one that I have completed actually, with also playing SR1, SR2 & Defiance, and I thought BO2 was pretty great, probably not the best one to play for the main part of the story, but I like the Hylden that it shows in the game, Kain was great, although I prefer his older form, and it had most of the cool & memorable characters, Vorador, Janos, etc.;)

I would give the game as a 9/10, and I also have to agree on the music, I loved it, in fact all of the LoK games seem to have really great music.:)

Razielhunter
11th Jun 2009, 08:23
Sorry to be the badass in the situation but a 9 out of 10 in Blood Omen 2..... apart from the story and the music the gameplay wasn´t good... The guard button can get through anything....

I currently playing the last game of the series for me(BO1) and i like it way better than BO2 its more fun and original... Basically maybe because i like old styled games... somehow it reminds me of Alundra 1. Voices are perfect and it has fun...

As i said 9 out of 10 its to much.... Then the I must give the Soul Reaver 1 a 20/10... :P . I loved that game...

The_Hylden
11th Jun 2009, 10:06
The guard button can get through anything....

No, it cannot. Red attacks go right through it. The only way out is to dodge in time.

Razielhunter
11th Jun 2009, 10:23
No, it cannot. Red attacks go right through it. The only way out is to dodge in time.

Haha, you get the picture :nut:, i have forgotten this...
Pressing the arrow and the space... am i correct?

hellwalker
11th Jun 2009, 13:56
They portrayed Kain well, that fact alone makes the game good.
Actually I don't believe many people would like and know kain much without playing Blood Omen 2.

Spike991
11th Jun 2009, 17:22
Sorry to be the badass in the situation but a 9 out of 10 in Blood Omen 2..... apart from the story and the music the gameplay wasn´t good... The guard button can get through anything....

I currently playing the last game of the series for me(BO1) and i like it way better than BO2 its more fun and original... Basically maybe because i like old styled games... somehow it reminds me of Alundra 1. Voices are perfect and it has fun...

As i said 9 out of 10 its to much.... Then the I must give the Soul Reaver 1 a 20/10... :P . I loved that game...

Well maybe I am in a minority here, but I found the gameplay to be pretty fun actually.:) The dodging blocked any regular attacks, and it was a pretty intense & fun fight when against multiple enemies, blocking, dodging, and getting the rage bar up, then you could use Fury or once you beat Sebastain, Berserk. Some of the action didn't feel quite as fluent as what I have felt with Soul Reaver, but it was cool anyway. I still stick with my 9/10, as I just played and beat the game yesterday and it is still fresh on my mind too.:)

The_Hylden
12th Jun 2009, 00:21
Pressing the arrow and the space... am i correct?

I had to think about that for a moment. Oh yeah, keyboard controls:p I use a gampepad when playing these games on PC. Yeah, the jump button while moving in a direction, basically, right or left. If you move forward, or back, not going to do much but get you killed. Ha.


Well maybe I am in a minority here, but I found the gameplay to be pretty fun actually

Yup, I enjoy the gameplay a lot, myself :thumb:

ammon
14th Jun 2009, 11:16
The Hylden
I had to think about that for a moment. Oh yeah, keyboard controls:p I use a gampepad when playing these games on PC. Yeah, the jump button while moving in a direction, basically, right or left. If you move forward, or back, not going to do much but get you killed. Ha.

heh heh :D it funny you'd mentioned that ^.^
(i have the Playstation version) because you can actually dodge some Red Attacks (and nearly all of the normal ones) by just walking backwards :lol: - it's great because they can't move when they attack so you can just shuffle backwards out of the way ^.0

FearGhoul
19th Jun 2009, 04:21
I never thought of just backing up to avoid those red attacks...
I really liked the gameplay. I thought it was a lot of fun how they implemented the Dark Gifts. I actually wish I could play another game just like it, like just the same sort of game, but a new one, like a mod or something, though I don't have it on computer. The only thing I really didn't like about the controls is that the turning is too slow. Sometimes there'd be a few enemies running at me, and I'd want to run back to some mist or something to stealth kill them, or some similar situation, and turning around would take too long and they'd get some hits in on me. That's really the only complaint about the gameplay I have. And I loved how they put all that dark humor into the game, which was also something I really liked in the original Blood Omen.

theshadowcult
21st Jun 2009, 03:31
I just didn't think the gameplay was all that great when considering all the spells and items you got in Blood Omen... i mean, how could you forget an item like Flay... seriously... or Implode, or the Font of Putrescence... the spells Spirit Wrack or Lighting... sure the actual physical combat in Blood Omen 2 was ok, and the story itself was excellent, just like the other four games, but Blood Omen 2 just did not have that special extra awesomness that was Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain! It didn't even have the awesome item quotes anymore... :/

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIjUQbwxpdE

FearGhoul
23rd Apr 2010, 03:02
I just found this at The Lost Worlds:
"While is is certainly a departure in many ways from the rest of the series, I felt that it was worked into the story very well by the Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance teams. Although I'm sure some of them initially were frustrated to account for things like Janos and the Hylden, the result was excellent."

So if I understand this correctly, the Hylden were a story element introduced by the Blood Omen 2 team? BLincoln, are you reading this? Could you explain this statement a bit more? I'd say that would certainly change how most people think of how that game fits into the story if one of the biggest story elements of the series was actually introduced because of BO2.
Source: http://www.thelostworlds.net/BO2/Chakan_and_Sirens.html

The_Hylden
23rd Apr 2010, 04:17
No, it's pretty common a criticism that actually the Hylden were introduced via this game and that their race, being more sci-fi/alien-like, doesn't really fit with the motif of Nosgoth. Not to mention, there's still the lingering criticisms of Janos, Vorador especially, and how Kain's coma is handled. I love Bo2, but it is a bit off,comparatively. I think the history of the Hylden is saved because of the expansion in SR2 and Defiance, but BO2 alone is a bit out there when you look at what came before it.

FearGhoul
23rd Apr 2010, 05:07
Yeah, I also read the old topic from when Ben found out about Chakan and read the description of the game from that site. That game would have been awesome from how it was described, though I wonder just how much they could really succeed in actually putting in the game. I'd love to see someone take that concept of hunting down creatures that would rip you to shreds in a straight up fight, and having to observe them, find their weaknesses, and then plan an attack that exploits that, and how it talks about how you have to pay attention to everything in the environment around you so you don't get ambushed by some horrible monster.

Tverdyj
22nd Aug 2010, 22:30
As I wrote in the Defiance forum, whilst BO2 had a lot of things wrong with it that make it seem like the "black sheep of LoK", there were a number of issues it adressed really well, when compared to Soul Reaver 2.

Firstly, it had real atmosphere. What do I mean by that? I mean the world of BO2 was alive, It did not revolve around Kain/Raziel, it would have existed with or without them. The original BO had this. SR 1 had a world that was collapsing around Raziel, but it would have done so regardless. SR2's big flaw was that the gameworld literally consisted of you, and various enemies. the only NPC were the big players, there to move the story along. and they'd only be there in cutscenes.
Any future LoK titles should capitalize on this, I feel, making the gameworld more interactive, Ideally bringing in the open-world explorability of SR1 with the densely populated world of the Blood Omen titles. While I'm not asking for an RPG-level of conversations and such (although that would be cool, too), but a certain level of interactivity in environment would go a long way to attracting new interest to the series.

Secondly, the setting.
BO2 was set some 200 years after BO1. in BO1, we saw the earliest forms of machinery, mining equipment, and some basic scienc-y stuff in Dark Eden labs. BO2 took us to a steampunk-ish world where steam was king, and every piece of machinery was clunky, huge and inefficient. and, hey, it was consistent with it! Setting-wise, my favourite levels in the entire game would be The INdustrial Quarter, and the Canyons because they showcased just how far Nosgoth's tech advanced, and exactly what its limitations were. This is another strong point that I hope any sequel will pick up on--time travel as a plot device gives the writers a lot of creative freedom and in the next title I'd like to see time travel provide us different times in Nosgoth's history with totally different settings--i.e., the Nosgoth of the Ancients should have one theme/architectural style, the Hylden Dimension should be totally different, the Nosgoth of Humans should be different, depending on the era it's set in, etc. I don't want another SR where I'm visiting the same keep 4 times in 3 different time periods and the only real change is whether or not the glass work is in yet or not. or Ushtenheim that doesn't change AT ALL--come on, you'd think in over 500 years there'd be at least one new building or something.

also, combat.
BO2 combat was intuitive and for novices of action/adventure (i.e, me--I'm not a console gamer and I stick with RTS.RPG genre on the PC. I only got into LoK because of BO1) it was very easy to master and enjoy. the fighting system had a lot of eye candy, and compared to the same SR2, even the kill animations were done better. not to mention the various options when it came to weapons, and the range of enemies. Defiance did this too, to an extent, but I really hated teh parts of Defiance where you are locked in a "force field"and have to kill everyone for it to dissipate. BO2 avoided this,, and at the same time it kept the action flowing nicely. most of Kain's mechanics in Defiance were adaptations from BO2 (with the nice nod to Bat form from BO1), and they worked great. mind-control provided for possibilities, too--if the sequel lets us mind-control enemies to fight for us, with enemies having abilities they can use against us and we can turn onto their allies.... damn, I start salivating just thinking about it.

now, from all the things above it may seem like i'm bashing other games in favour of BO2. I'm not. LoK is still one of my favourite game plots of all time, and nothing will change that. SR2 was all about plot, we all know that. BO2's plot was weaker, no one would deny that. it was a spinoff, and one that really felt tacked onto the main story, which by then, to many, became "Raziel's story". I can understand that.

but at this point, Raziel is done. those of us who want sequels, have to admit that the last game will be all about Kain. So we should look into what can we do to make KAIN interested to those who have never played SR, how can we make the project interesting enough for Square Enix to agree to pour money into making it, in hopes of attracting a brand-new fanbase. And, like it or not, aside from the plot (which is what us diehards want), BO2 offers a lot more GAMEPLAY improvement possibilities than SR2/Defiance did.

The_Hylden
22nd Aug 2010, 23:25
Not disagreeing with you, just adding this:

BO2 isn't the first to introduce steam-based technology. SR1 had it as well in all of the clan territories. Melchiah's underground chambers; the Silenced Cathedral is basically one big steam-powered machine. Dumah's lair had that giant furnace which powered everything (and charred his bacon :p). The Human Citadel; the Light Houses where you find the Light Glyph -- I think Rahab's lair was too sunken in water to know really if they once had working steam-tech there, but yeah, it's there in SR1.

So, BO2 was consistent, to a point, by utilizing this. However, they made a distinction in the plot to why there's so much more of it and the tech is so alien. It's actually enhanced and evolved by the Glyph Magic power sources in everything. Hylden magic and technology, which really didn't need steam, basically enhanced the stuff Nosgoth probably had evolved to on its own and then you have giant Glyph factories and huge crazy machines doing everything. Given where it ends up in SR1, one can assume that the timeline had some form of steam-powered industrial revolution in Nosgoth by this time, but this change along the timeline is the reason for even more of it, and more foreign technology than we might have seen otherwise. You get to the Hylden city and it's all floaty platforms, beam weaponry and mining lasers, and holographic control panels, etc. So, Glyph Magic can do great things, for sure. Though, we assume that, with Kain sending all of the Hylden back to the Demon Realm at the end of the game, all of their Glyph Magic no longer is working to power a lot of the tech, so it probably went back to what it had been before it was introduced (exemplified by the creators stating SR1 is supposed to still happen just the same way as before the paradox that introduces BO2).

Tverdyj
23rd Aug 2010, 03:10
Very true, and that`s another reason to add love to original SR, :D

what i`d really like to see in the next installment is the world where Hylden Dimension looks all hi-tech in a dying wasteland, the Ancients have Calssical-architecture type setting and the post-BO1 human Nosgoth continues to involve mechanically.

I think it`s also telling that after the destruction of the circle we don`t really see any `traditional`` sorcery in BO2--as if `the age of magic`` is done, so to speak.

another point, since we`re on the topic of settings:
I`ve thoroughly enjoyed the 4 forges of SR2, in fact they were some of the best-designed levels, imo.
but at the same time, you see Dark Forge and you`re thinking `Europe at the beginning of Enlightement, weith Copernicus and Galileo`, you go Light forge and you think "Ancient Mesopotamia or India", you hit up Air forge and all I can think of are Aztecs...and then Janos' retread and fire forge is straight up Germanic Wagner-style castles. While it's all very cool and pleasing to the eye, it leaves me confused as hell as to just what to make of the Ancients. I'd like the next game to feature a part where Kain gets to witness the war with Hylden, but i'm lost in though as to which setting should be chosen for that.

And I do want to see more of BO2 steampunk and interacton with random people who aren't all just enemies and/or walking bloodbags.

dumah's wraith
24th Aug 2010, 21:54
Maybe different construction teams were involved with each Forge. I different human cultures can produce so many styles of architecture, there could be several Ancient styles.

The gameplay reason for the variation is that the gamer would get sick of the same kind of forge over and over again.

Escaton
24th Aug 2010, 22:30
BO2's designers specifically invented the Glyph magic to try and explain the steampunk elements that seeped into the series with SR1. It was only later when the Soul Reaver team declared BO2 an alternate history that the whole Hylden tech explanation was nullified. So we still have no idea where the industrial stuff came from in the old timelines...

The_Hylden
25th Aug 2010, 01:10
The gameplay reason for the variation is that the gamer would get sick of the same kind of forge over and over again.

Kinda' like Defiance and the vampire Citadel? :p lol And excellent point about the Ancients having multiple different cultures within their species.

And yeah, like I said: before the shift in BO2, the tech probably occurred more modestly and gradually, and might have even gone back to this point once the Hylden were removed by Kain. Once they were gone, all of their Glyph Tech should have stopped working, as well.

Tverdyj
25th Aug 2010, 02:04
true, but I'm sure Humans would have found something.

I mean, Glyph tech didn't power everything, even in BO2. its main use was to block vampires from passing various parts of the city. that was the only true "magical" thing about it.

everywhere else, it was used simply as power source. Since steam engine was used alongside it, i'm sure humans would've found a replacement power source.
plus, all those huge cars we see in the Canyons don't appear to have used glyphs for power.

dumah's wraith
27th Aug 2010, 20:59
BO2's designers specifically invented the Glyph magic to try and explain the steampunk elements that seeped into the series with SR1. It was only later when the Soul Reaver team declared BO2 an alternate history that the whole Hylden tech explanation was nullified. So we still have no idea where the industrial stuff came from in the old timelines...

Why do they need to explain the steampunk elements? It's roughly 2000 years from BO1 to SR1. How much has our world changed in that time? The only reason that there's no machine guns in SR1 is that Kain's empire left the humans too concerned with survival to innovate, and the vampires don't want to change a world that's utterly in their control. People invent things over time, unless their lives are too unstable to think beyond the day to day survival.

After BO2, Kain's new army probably wanted to destroy everything that reminded them of the Sarafan. Thus all the new tech, whether its glyph magic or not, is destroyed, like when the barbarians destroyed Rome. According to the SR1 manual, once the major human kingdoms fell, Kain's empire began 'shaping nosgoth to our will'. Unless something is useful to them, like the smokestacks, they destroy it. Kain is probably most comfortable with BO1 era tech. War destroys things. You need a certain amount of stability to innovate.

Tverdyj
28th Aug 2010, 01:56
you see, that's exactly why I would absolutely hate for them to abandon the time-travel mechanic--it presents the developers with so many options. I'm resigned to the fact that the only likely way that LoK will ever get back on the shelves is through a major makover, possibly even genre change, so if they want to try to attract new interest to the series, they should actively promote the time-travel aspect and the various settings the player may discover in each time period.

I mean, it would also give us a chance to learn more about Nosgoth in various parts of its history.
I'd definitely hope that SE would consider that. But then again, i'd like to see the next LoK franchise be story-driven, but with an explorable world and characters I could interact with instead of just hacking them down for blood, so I may not be the most rational one here.

FearGhoul
28th Aug 2010, 02:17
But then again, i'd like to see the next LoK franchise be story-driven, but with an explorable world and characters I could interact with instead of just hacking them down for blood, so I may not be the most rational one here.


Actually I completely agree with that. Well, I wouldn't want an Elder Scrolls style interactivity with characters, but more along the lines of how it felt in Blood Omen 2, though maybe a bit deeper.

Paradoks
31st Aug 2010, 04:04
I shouldn't probably be posting here because everyone knows how much I “like” BO2. So for a change I will try to keep it as positive as possible and start by listing things that I think that the game has actually done right. I promised a “what was wrong with BO2” essay once a new game is announced, but that will obviously have to wait ;).


The best part in my opinion were the dark gifts, mist form being my favourite. The possibility to perform stealth kills (with two different animations for each weapon) for me was probably the most enjoyable part of the game. I found it disappointing that Defiance completely avoided stealth mechanics (Raziel's dark reaver spell was screaming for some proper stealth system).

The other dark gifts also fitted into the gameplay, some also having uses in both combat and “puzzles”. While I didn't like the idea of “segmenting” the boss fights, I liked the idea that all gifts were proved necessary in these fights at some point.

About the combat system – I generally disliked it, but I have to congratulate the team for actually trying something different. While I wasn't impressed with the final result (I will list my main complaints later), I still have respect for them for not following a set path. And decapitating enemies with a single swing was really enjoyable. :D

From artistic point of view I actually really liked most of Meridian levels (I particularly enjoyed the Higher City). But I still think that the only reason why Crystal Dynamics didn't have to deal with lawsuits from Looking Glass was because both Thief and LoK were published by Eidos (I mean both setting and main plot line of Thief 2).

And at the risk of sounding childish I will say that another thing that BO2 got right was the gore. While not as good as in BO1 it still provided some variety with beheading, throat slithing and heart ripping :p (although the neck breaking animation was hilarious).



Firstly, it had real atmosphere. What do I mean by that? I mean the world of BO2 was alive, It did not revolve around Kain/Raziel, it would have existed with or without them. The original BO had this. SR 1 had a world that was collapsing around Raziel, but it would have done so regardless. SR2's big flaw was that the gameworld literally consisted of you, and various enemies. the only NPC were the big players, there to move the story along. and they'd only be there in cutscenes.
I agree that BO2 did a good job in this area. But I also have to defend SR2 here. How would this living world element be implemented?
You see a blue demon like creature. Do you:
a) try to kill it with whatever means you have at your disposal
b) run as fast and as far away as possible
c) talk to the creature about high taxes and current events
I find the third option rather unlikely ;). It would be really hard to put this element into the game in a convincing way in my opinion.


Any future LoK titles should capitalize on this, I feel, making the gameworld more interactive, Ideally bringing in the open-world explorability of SR1 with the densely populated world of the Blood Omen titles. While I'm not asking for an RPG-level of conversations and such (although that would be cool, too), but a certain level of interactivity in environment would go a long way to attracting new interest to the series.

While I would also love to see more interaction with the world I'm afraid that implementing them in a future game may also be difficult. First of all – we all expect that if such game is eventually made, then we would be playing as elder Kain. At that point Kain is a millennia old vampire god. He was always arrogant, but in this state talking to mere mortals would be a blow to his dignity.
As I said – I would really like such mechanic, but unless we get a remake of BO1, retrospective scenes in the game or a spin-off with actual vampire cities, then I don't expect Kain to have a conversation with anyone besides the “big players”.
The thing that however can be done are written sources (I really liked when they were mentioned in BO1 - books in Wilendorf Library and Vorador’s Mansion).

I don't want another SR where I'm visiting the same keep 4 times in 3 different time periods and the only real change is whether or not the glass work is in yet or not. or Ushtenheim that doesn't change AT ALL--come on, you'd think in over 500 years there'd be at least one new building or something.
I will write about the settings later, but to comment on this part - In general I agree about Ushtenheim. While I think that general architectural style should remain more or less the same (with some possible “improvements”), the fact that the town didn't change at all was really unconvincing. I can't however agree about the stronghold, (or all “ancient” sites in general). Look at the Pyramid of Khufu – built around 2680-2565 BC – it still stands to this day. The construction of King's College Chapel took place in years 1446-1515 – it still stands to this day. Sagrada Familia is being built since 1882, and unless some disaster happens – it will be still standing in 2500. The changes to such monumental buildings don't happen that often. Off course not always a building will remain unchanged for the whole time (Lincoln Cathedral being a good example, but the changes were in most cases a result of all sorts of natural disasters and the necessity of repairing the damage).

In short – I'm just trying to say that unless a building of that magnitude suffers some serious damage then it will (or rather - should) look really similar a few centuries later.

For the record – I disliked the fact that in SR1 Kain's appearance didn't change at all between the intro and the game (he could at least change his pants in that few centuries :p).

also, combat.
BO2 combat was intuitive and for novices of action/adventure (i.e, me--I'm not a console gamer and I stick with RTS.RPG genre on the PC. I only got into LoK because of BO1) it was very easy to master and enjoy.
That's another part I can't agree with. Of all LoK games BO2 system was the most luck dependant one. I'm referring to unblockable attacks (yes, I know you could dodge these) that the enemies could perform whenever they wanted. And they were invulnerable while performing it.
I have experienced one particular scenario far too many times: just after I start a combo with a heavy (and slow) weapon, the enemy decides to perform a critical attack. It can be a “little” annoying.
All other games were purely skill based (maybe with the exception of some "lost" projectiles in Defiance). You saw the attack and you had the means to counter it.

the fighting system had a lot of eye candy, and compared to the same SR2, even the kill animations were done better. not to mention the various options when it came to weapons, and the range of enemies.
While I appreciated the fact that there actually has been a “real” blocking animation, in general I think that SR2 animations were much better (Raziel breaking demons' necks was priceless :)). And there wasn't any real difference between the weapons besides a little different animations. The only real difference was the ability to decapitate with a “heavy” weapon.
The other problem I had was the (literal) hand to hand combat. Hylden not using any weapons on blocking sword strikes with their bare hands looked like taken from some cheap kung-fu movie.

LoK is still one of my favourite game plots of all time, and nothing will change that. SR2 was all about plot, we all know that. BO2's plot was weaker, no one would deny that.
It may be a good place to ask this. I often hear an argument in defense of BO2's story that Amy Hennig approved the script before the game was released. However I can't find any evidence supporting this. On the other hand I find (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=22352) quotes like this one:

But what exactly was her (Ed. note-Amy) impact/influence BO2, non existent? Did she write a general idea and hand it off cause she was busy with SR2? Or is she changing HER story to account for the events of BO2?

BO2 was put together and written by an entirely different team. But Defiance will incorporate the back stories of all past LOK games.
And if she approved the script then I think that her name would appear somewhere in the ending credits.

And on a side-note. I'm not sure how I feel reading this seven years later

Is LOKD the last game in the LOK series??

No. I'm sure Eidos will continue to produce LoK games as long as they remain popular. So tell you friends to get the game when it comes out!
:hmm:



what i`d really like to see in the next installment is the world where Hylden Dimension looks all hi-tech in a dying wasteland
Please – anything but “hi-tech”. The flying "robot" or whatever that was in the hylden city was bad enough ;).

another point, since we`re on the topic of settings:
I`ve thoroughly enjoyed the 4 forges of SR2, in fact they were some of the best-designed levels, imo.
but at the same time, you see Dark Forge and you`re thinking `Europe at the beginning of Enlightement, weith Copernicus and Galileo`, you go Light forge and you think "Ancient Mesopotamia or India", you hit up Air forge and all I can think of are Aztecs...and then Janos' retread and fire forge is straight up Germanic Wagner-style castles.
I didn't like the fact that the Forges were so different. About the actual styles – my knowledge of architecture is really limited (a year ago I didn't know what a portico was :D). But from what I know most of the styles are different to what you have listed (but as stated above - it's based on my limited knowledge. If someone could point out the mistakes that I made, preferably with sources, then I would really appreciate that).

Dark Forge has some clear influence of architecture of India (particularly the “Sikharas”).
The Light forge seems to be most influenced by ancient Egypt (open papyrus columns with simple abacuses and “osiride” pillars in the main chamber, a quite fitting inspiration for a Light based complex by the way). The Wind Forge is indeed an example of precolumbian architecture. I'm having a hard time labelling the Retreat however. The general “feel” seems to be influenced by India architecture, with central towers somehow resembling Stambhas (that's the closest comparison I could find), but I can't find any specific influences. If someone knows what it is modelled after then please share this information. The Fire forge looks like a Romanesque style with some Gothic additions (with gargoyles being really elegantly incorporated as a part the vault in side naves :thumb:).

While it's all very cool and pleasing to the eye, it leaves me confused as hell as to just what to make of the Ancients. I'd like the next game to feature a part where Kain gets to witness the war with Hylden, but i'm lost in though as to which setting should be chosen for that.
They kind of “solved” it in Defiance where they just took all kinds of different architectures and put them in one bag. (a Chinesse dragon around horseshoe arcs in Water Temple being a prime example) :lol:.


Maybe different construction teams were involved with each Forge. I different human cultures can produce so many styles of architecture, there could be several Ancient styles.

The gameplay reason for the variation is that the gamer would get sick of the same kind of forge over and over again.
The problem is that the Forges are all relatively close to each other. And while I understand that there may be different factions within the race, I didn't like the fact that they were so radically different.
One could expect that a race facing extinction would be united and not divided. Furthermore the coexisting cultures always influence each other, and that can be seen in architecture as well.
While the temples in Defiance from a gameplay point of view were a huge mistake, they actually were more realistic.


true, but I'm sure Humans would have found something.

I mean, Glyph tech didn't power everything, even in BO2. its main use was to block vampires from passing various parts of the city. that was the only true "magical" thing about it.

everywhere else, it was used simply as power source. Since steam engine was used alongside it, i'm sure humans would've found a replacement power source.
plus, all those huge cars we see in the Canyons don't appear to have used glyphs for power.
Actually I think that it did power everything (or almost everything). The barriers required glyph energy. The lights required glyph energy. Most locks required glyph energy. Even heating bathwater required glyph energy ;). And all these devices may simply have been designed in a way that that glyphs were the only suitable power source - like I don't think they could redesign "glyph levers" to be "steam engine levers".
And it's very possible that once the "batteries" were depleted there was no known way for humans to recharge them. The unused dialogue in the game files suggested that glyph energy is in fact a drained life-force energy (which would add some irony to the bloodlust curse).

The_Hylden
31st Aug 2010, 11:48
I believe, though I've been looking and I can't find an actual post to corroborate this, that blincoln found out that Amy Hennig approved the BO2 script. He's visited Chrystal Dynamics and has more contacts with the team than any I know, but I believe he's the one that stated this. I wish I could be completely certain now, as it's been so long and I don't have the evidence right here in front of me. If I am wrong, blincoln, I apologize.

Tverdyj
31st Aug 2010, 23:59
O: @ Paradoks:

I wouldn't claim to be all that knowledgeable about Architecture, lol. you may easily be right (but hey, I got the Wind forgee right at least), I just wrote what I remembered my "general impression" being. in the Dark forge, if you watch the cinematic once you've solved it, it gives you a planet and a light source--I thought of Renessaince in Europe because that's when we've discovered most of the planets in the solar system and made strides in astronomy.

also, for the record, in BO2, the unblockable "red": attacks could still be countered.... by the combat dark gifts. it was very satisfying to punch out Sebastian with Fury just as he was running up to deliver the dropkick.

Paradoks
2nd Sep 2010, 02:05
in the Dark forge, if you watch the cinematic once you've solved it, it gives you a planet and a light source
I'm quite sure that this "planet" actually represents the moon. You can see images of lunar phases around the complex, and some puzzles (including the main chamber one) actually require setting the "clocks" to a new moon state.
Anyway - does anyone think that dark and light reaver symbols may be modelled after astrolabe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe) (yes, I'm aware of the goth reaver theory :D)?

The_Hylden
6th Sep 2010, 14:44
Yes, the moon gets blasted by sunlight, creating a (wait for it...) lunar eclipse. The lunar eclipse is represented in the "concentric circles, one eclipsing the other" that is the symbol for the Dark Forge. Incidentally, I believe using sun dials and basing things on lunar and solar eclipses in societies on Earth predate the Egyptians and Mayans.

And yes, Paradoks, those symbols are reminiscent.

Paradoks
6th Sep 2010, 21:52
Yes, the moon gets blasted by sunlight, creating a (wait for it...) lunar eclipse.
It cannot be a lunar eclipse, because the "moon" is half-lit. The point of the lunar eclipse is that Earth blocks all sunlight from reaching the moon. What we see is either full moon (looking from the south) or new moon (looking from the north).


Incidentally, I believe using sun dials and basing things on lunar and solar eclipses in societies on Earth predate the Egyptians and Mayans.
I know that this isn't really a reliable source, but according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sundials):
The earliest sundials known from the archaeological record are the obelisks (3500 BC) and shadow clocks (1500 BC) from ancient Egyptian astronomy and Babylonian astronomy.
If there are mentions about sundials before these civilisations then I'm not aware of them (which obviously doesn't mean that they don't exist, it's just that my knowledge about the subject is really limited).

The_Hylden
6th Sep 2010, 22:16
Yes, a lunar eclipse is the Earth blocking the sun from reflecting off of the moon. The new moon works for this. My meaning was that all sunlight was blocked from illuminating the moon on the dark side. Every new moon is an eclipse, actually.

Civilizations like the Egyptians and the earliest civilizations were basing their understanding of time, mathematics, etc., on the careful observation of celestial bodies in the sky.

Paradoks
6th Sep 2010, 23:11
Yes, a lunar eclipse is the Earth blocking the sun from reflecting off of the moon. The new moon works for this. My meaning was that all sunlight was blocked from illuminating the moon on the dark side. Every new moon is an eclipse, actually.

I'm sorry in advance for "pushing" this. It's just that after (admittedly way too many ;)) years spent on university of technology I'm really careful about using definitions.
During the eclipse there are is no lit part of the moon, the whole moon is unlit. During both new and full moon (except the situation when eclipse occurs) stages however half of the moon is always lit - it's just that either unlit or lit part is visible from Earth. At the new moon state the Earth does not block the Sun's rays. It's just the unlit part of the moon that is visible. So every new moon cannot be called eclipse (because technically nothing eclipses anything).
Again - sorry for going a little off topic.

The_Hylden
7th Sep 2010, 00:42
First, my statement that a new moon works for this is stating it works to describe what is represented in SR2's dark forge, not that it and a lunar eclipse are the same.

However, there are different branching definitions to the word eclipse. In this sense, a new moon is not a representation of one celestial body eclipsing another, but it is an eclipse of the sunlight that normally the moon reflects, which illuminates the moon, being contrarily blocked by the moon. What's being eclipsed is the light of the sun.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eclipse


1.
a. The partial or complete obscuring, relative to a designated observer, of one celestial body by another.
b. The period of time during which such an obscuration occurs.
2. A temporary or permanent dimming or cutting off of light.

Eclipse can also mean to surpass, as well as a few other non-relevant definitions, but in the most basic sense, the word means to cut off, diminish, or block. The way that Raziel and the game is using it is to describe what's happening in the Dark Forge, also. Again, Raziel states when seeing the symbol of the Dark Forge: "Concentric circles, one eclipsing the other." The first circle is the symbol of Light, and it's being eclipsed by the second circle, which represents the moon (or any blockage of light can be used, really, but the game shows us the moon as the device causing the eclipse), also causing what we know as a New Moon.

My mistake in the first post was to label this a lunar eclipse, as the distinction of the lunar eclipse only happens as you said. However, stating that an eclipse is the label that may be used to describe the New Moon occurrence in the lunar cycle is not wrong.

Now, back to the topic :p

Paradoks
7th Sep 2010, 18:17
OK. I'm satisfied with this answer :).

Tverdyj
9th Oct 2010, 05:12
to revive the topic....

what exactly powered those cars in the Canyons? I sure didn't see any Glyphs there, lol

Sam_kain
14th Sep 2011, 19:08
To be honest I very much liked BO2, one of my favorite games :D

The combat was great for me, and the powers added alot of variety, even though it seems repetitive, so was the case with SR1/2

The story to me was as good as it can be, no over the top twists or something, but they got the feeling right, and I loved it, even Kain's lieutenants were great addition, I liked their battle so much, I was sad for Magnus though

BTW the big reason I love BO2 is because of the brutality and look of the game, the character design is great, you know in SR1/2 & Defaince I never saw vampires, not at good shape at least, but in BO2 I did, and their design was something special, their look was cool, I am talking about those who were around Vorador

I really wish for BO3 D:

Shin_Anubis
16th Sep 2011, 08:04
I never understood why BO2 received so much hate. It's my second best favorite LoK right after Blood Omen 1. Loved the art and graphics style, especially the Eternal Prison ;)

I just wish they'd included more of the 'traditional' content from Blood Omen 1 like the Flame Sword, Bone Armor, Chaos Armor etc. Even the Iron Armor plus early Soul Reaver can only be acquired through a cheat code :(

theshadowcult
16th Sep 2011, 15:06
I can't believe people are still posting here lol, just shows the impact these games had.

Sam, you should try playing Blood Omen, everything Blood Omen 2 did well, Blood Omen did better, except the combat, in Blood Omen, combat is quite difficult (though i prefer it still, only because i like Isometric view games). As for not seeing vampires be vampires in the soul reaver and defiance games, it's because they are all dead, Raziel and the rest of the seraphim annihilated them all. In Blood Omen, there is only one left, and you, but your a special case.

Shin, if BO2 was more like Blood Omen, people wouldn't have dissed it as much, that's the whole point. Instead of actually being a Blood Omen 2, they made Soul Reaver 1.5 and made Kain the playable character instead. I mean hell, what happened to the many spells Kain could cast in BO? They became a few small telepathic powers in BO2!!!

Sam_kain
17th Sep 2011, 02:19
theshadowcult: It's a shame I didn't play BO, I think I will wait for Ominicde BO when looks the same and better :)

And yes I understand that most vampires died, and even the vampires clan from Raziel's brothers were already devolved, I mean if there is going to be a BO3 one day, we can see those great vampires again :)

I don't consider BO2 to be SR1.5, you see SR 1&2 focused more on puzzles and open environment, unlike BO2 which was more linear and more bloody in approach, also It seems BO1 was kinda like dungeon adventure, then the whole series shifted into hack and slash adventure

FearGhoul
17th Sep 2011, 03:44
It wasn't the Sarafan that killed off all the Vampires in Blood Omen. That was Moebius's mob after Kain changed history. Before the time change, it's made very clear that there are a lot of Vampires out there. Kain even kills quite a few in Vorador's Mansion.

The_Hylden
18th Sep 2011, 10:12
The sentiment of BO2 being like Soul Reaver stems from what they did with Kain having to fight each boss and gain a new ability from them ... by "absorbing their veins." That vein absorption looked quite a bit like Kain was absorbing their souls and some people have been confused over that throughout the years. It was a shoddy and unnecessary element to add in the game and it was just a copy of Soul Reaver's unique way of gaining new abilities. That's where the similarity ends, however.

Most of his abilities are jokes, or something he already had. He retains Mist from the start. He "gains" Charm, which is nothing but Control Mind, which he already had in BO1. His Fury he has to start, and later Berserk he "gains," are merely him angry and dishing out some fast and hard attacks. Hardly new abilities. Jump should be something he's already got, or certainly could do in Wolf Form. TK is an amplification stated by the Seer of his natural TK abilities, so he's not really gaining there. Immolate is the one new ability -- the one that's actually worth anything.

While I enjoy the game and it got me into the series, it's barely redeemable. The writing and the performances are asked to be campy, and are far more humor and satire of the very series and vampire games in general than serious. While the rest of the series might have moments of humor now and then (Raziel's quips, and some from Kain in BO1, come to mind), they are naturally brought about in circumstances and aren't simply comedy sketches by the NPC's, and even the main characters (Kain condemns everyone constantly, boasts every other second; the Hylden Lord sounds and acts buffoonish, especially near the end), made this way on purpose. The rest of the series is a serious, tightly-crafted, plot-driven thespian fantasy/tragedy. It would be like if the direct linked sequel to Hamlet, or Macbeth, by Shakespeare wound up being The Taming of the Shrew. Even the combat it campy. Kain grabs people and his them over and over in the face with the butt of a sword, or smashes them in the groin over and over, or impales them twice in the chest and one through the brain with the couble-bladed weapon ... and the person gets back up -_- The Sarafan in their gaudy Roman-like Gladiator outfits acting brash and laughing at you, get when they die, they scream in high pitches like little girls and kick their feat? Camp-city.

And as far as how the vampires are presented: I'd much rather have the vampires we've seen in Janos, Vorador, and his brides from BO1 through Defiance, even the dead vampires in SR2, than any of those walking, half-naked cliches, lol. They look like they all belong in a BloodRayne game than they do in Legacy of Kain. Their attire, especially for the Cabal vampires trying to hide out in secrecy to not be noticed by the Sarafan, is ridiculous, at best. Umah (and our mod here by the same name will probably not appreciate this :( ) walking around Meridian in her barely-there, bight purple sign/underwear -- I mean armor :p, is just as silly as my description. No wonder Kain's the only one that can slip by the Sarafan undetected. Then, of course, the graphics and animations do not help. Kain points all the time, hisses and looks utterly stupid, not menacing (not to mention, his entire form looks like they intentionally stretched it to be taller and is totally odd-looking); characters are the most awkward in their movements, actions, and with glitching as you will ever find in a game. Hard for me to take anyone seriously when their blocky hands and arms are gesturing all over creation, or when they turn without moving their feet, or their mouths move when they don't speak, or their heads roll around looking at nothing. I mean, it's nuts. I honestly have a theory that the devs realized that they didn't have the budget and time to finish the game to where it would look right and they could animate it properly, so they intentionally made the writing more comical to draw less attention to the bad graphics and animations. Oh, and try not to laugh when you cut off a female warrior's head and a token male human head lops off in its place :p

Anyway, enough of my counter debunking of things in BO2. I do like the game still, but it's nowhere near the rest in the series and mainly remains something worthwhile by its fun gameplay, and because of Templeman's performance. Be it as it may that this Kain was written to be grossly over-the-top, the performance makes it work, still.



As far as vampires in the others games: You know what else BO1 gave us, besides many vampires? Werewolves. Yup, I want to see that part put back in, and the rest of the huge, HUGE assortment of enemies, kingdoms, lands, etc.

Sam_kain
19th Sep 2011, 13:00
I wouldn't call his abilities a joke, otherwise Raziel abilities as well would be, Raziel 2nd ability was to climb, really ?!, he already got freakin claws why can't he climb ?!, his 4th ability was laughable too, running in circle ?!, but in the end of the day I didn't mind them that much, they were part of the story, as for Kain he was defeated, just got back to life, it is no wonder that he lost all his powers, maybe they are not new abilities, but seeing Kain going Berserk was an eye candy for me and never gets old, him taking their power maybe similar to soul absorbs, but to me, he was like extracting their powers out of their blood, and thus the power manifest in the shape of it's wielder (soul or whatever), didn't really mind it, I don't think it is fair to blame the Devs about Kain losing his own powers from BO1, in SR1 Kain was able to his raziel with lighting kinda attack, in Defiance he lost that ability ?!, in SR1/2 he was able to teleport himself, yet he couldn't in Defiance, and I don't believe he used any of his BO1 abilities either in any of the other titles

Regarding Kain tone, I didn't play BO1 so I wouldn't know, but in BO2 he was a general, he was like the strongest vampire, he had to be cooky all the time, to me Kain was a king who lost his place along with his powers, but still got his pride, after being a king he can't just follow orders like a dog can he !!!, unlike Elder Kain where his mind is different, Elder kain wants to bring balance and restore Nosogth not conquer it, so the attitude is different, I don't recall laughing or feeling BO2 got a comedy sense at all, it was dark, and bloody, the Mist executions were really epic, in BO2 the enemies actually block your attacks (especially the hylden) unlike SR1/2 which is run slash slash slash (except the demons), in BO2 you also got an unbeatable demon, the environment were varied and up to the task, the charm boxes which you got more power from were great too

I agree that not all the vampire design are great, but in BO2 Janos, Voradoor, Kain and his lieutenants were designed really great, I also was playing the PC version, I didn't encounter any problems at all, or I wasn't paying enough attention due to the game greatness :P, but there was also some details in the design like the weapons getting rusty and breaking, and having alot of different weapons


I maybe over defending BO2, but it got some great memories with me, and it was like a whole new level of epic-ness, that's why I love it :)


The werewolves in BO1 what were they like ?!, huge wolves ?!, or human-like wolf on 2 legs ?!

The_Hylden
19th Sep 2011, 16:06
Those abilities you mention of Raziel's are kind of a joke, actually. I've said for years he should have been able to climb from the beginning. What they should have said instead was that his speed and the ease of it increased. You can see in Defiance they were making that distinction. Raziel doesn't impale the wall anymore, just slinks up it as easy as walking, while Kain has to plow his claws into the wall harder. I think they made Kain way too slow at it, and Raziel could have been even faster, but anyway. I take the "climbable walls" with a huge grain of salt also, thinking of them more like simply those are the areas he needed to go up, but he should be able to climb any wall, just like you see the Zephonim do in the Silenced Cathedral. Constrict was silly, a bit. It's a binding and manipulating spell, so it's the presentation that makes it rather silly. There is a reason we don't ever see Raziel use it beyond SR1 and that is it. As for Kain, the developers confirmed that Kain has every spell and ability he had in BO1, still even in Defiance. He just picks and chooses which spells and abilities to use, explaining why they only chose certain ones for him in Defiance. Defiance has its issues with presenting abilities, for sure. Kain uses Lightning, Teleport, Conflict (nothing but the Inspire Hate Spell from BO1), and Slow Time. All were spells he had in BO1, teleport being the Sanctuary Spell (by the Soul Reaver games, he can just teleport anywhere). However, Kain has to use the Reaver to do these spells and has to upgrade it with the Balance Emblem shards to do it. A point was made that in BO1 he couldn't use the Reaver and his own magic, so that might be why, because it's a tow-handed weapon in that game. Well, Kain's a lot stronger now and frequently wields the Reaver with one hand, not to mention uses TK just fine with it before he ever upgrades the Reaver. And, it also isn't the Soul Reaver, so it shouldn't be hampering his magic power like it did when he was a fledgling. Oh, and for carry overs of BO2: Kain has to, for some reason, upgrade his TK abilities with the first Balance Emblem shard (half of the Conflict Shard) to upgrade both he and the Reaver. He can then use it to for pyrokenisis. Well, he already has Immolate, so why? He does retain long jump, which again, should just be his own ability and power. He's a strong, fast guy -- I mean, demigod strong -- he should be able to jump long distances without sucking up any other vampire's veins.

Bottom line is, as much as I love the games, a criticism definitely stands in their frequent mishandling of Kain and Raziel's ability upgrades and uses. Raziel upgraded the Wraith Blade with the same upgrades in three games. Fire, being the main one that lasted for all three, with the rest in both SR2 and Defiance. Story reasons, aside, that's just not good gameplay mechanics. This isn't the Metroid series, where it's almost expected to have that happen and has been a staple for decades. It takes away from the immersion when things like this happen. Also, Raziel's Glyph Spells, like Kain's spells, were never used again. Why?

And back to Kain: he does use his Teleport spell in Defiance, himself, sans need of Reaver. He teleports away from the bottom of the Spirit Chamber after defeating the EG. He then gives his "In the meantime, you'd best burrow deep!" line, and walks away. In SR1, Kain definitely is using either Lightning, or an upgraded Energy Bolt blast on Raziel. He uses it through the Reaver in the first fight in the Sanctuary of the Clans, and later without the Reaver in the Chronoplast. So, anyway, the bottom line is that Kain is stated to still have all abilities, but we have to say he "picks and chooses" which to use, so people can be satisfied why their all-powerful vampire God is performing bafflingly lower than he should.

The coma reason for BO2 was truly screaming out "gamplay reason." And having Kain absorb veins to gain new abilities was really hard to look at and not scream Soul Reaver Raziel... BO2 was a rushed game. I can't blame CD, but yet, I have to a bit. I won't gloss over this stuff, though, just because I am a fan of the series.


Regarding Kain tone, I didn't play BO1 so I wouldn't know, but in BO2 he was a general, he was like the strongest vampire, he had to be cooky all the time, to me Kain was a king who lost his place along with his powers, but still got his pride, after being a king he can't just follow orders like a dog can he !!!, unlike Elder Kain where his mind is different, Elder kain wants to bring balance and restore Nosogth not conquer it, so the attitude is different, I don't recall laughing or feeling BO2 got a comedy sense at all, it was dark, and bloody, the Mist executions were really epic, in BO2 the enemies actually block your attacks (especially the hylden) unlike SR1/2 which is run slash slash slash (except the demons), in BO2 you also got an unbeatable demon, the environment were varied and up to the task, the charm boxes which you got more power from were great too

Kain's lost a lot of his former glory, true and should want revenge. However, Kain was never shown to be an idiot. There are more than a few times where his dismissal of advice, council, and defiance of orders cost him a lot. Kain was headstrong in BO1, also sought out revenge, but he knew when to rely on council and how to assess situations tactically better. They woefully overplayed the brash and arrogant Kain, and lost most of any subtly in character otherwise, nor did Kain grow really. As far as comedy, just starting with Kain, he's always pointing at everything, kicking people in the ribs until the spit up blood, even if he then politely asks information, tells everyone in more haughty terms to go to hell, yet expects them to remain loyal, and comes up with lines that are so outrageous, so over-the-top, that even when first playing through the game and loving it to get me interested in "Who is this guy?" to find out more, I still laughed out loud as the audacity and blatancy of every insult and boast. He tells Umah to give him back the Nexus stone, "before I take it from your thieving fingers as you convulse in death!" lol, I mean, there are threats and understandable brashness, and then there are campy one-liners. Kain was full of them in this game. You missed the townsfolk's' stupefying comedy routines?? What game were you playing? :p Here's just a few choice examples, but these go on for almost every encounter with any two townies anywhere:



Man:
Simply fantastic. Their use of imagery mixed with impressionistic neo-modernism was simply breathtaking.

Woman:
I like the colors.

Man:
Well yes, yes. But what was really stunning was the pathos of the protagonist. The way he couldn't decide whether to allow fate to sweep him forward, or if he should thwart destiny's cruel hand.

Woman:
Oh yes, that was interesting.

Man:
It reminds me of Sergio's use of deus ex machina in order to resolve dilemmas of the ego.

Woman:
I'm hungry.

Man:
Yes, yes.



First Thug:
So, this fella taps me on the shoulder.

Second Thug:
Right there in the Red Raven?

First Thug:
That's right, but I could tell he didn't belong there. Nice hands, he had, and that look in his eye, like he reads too much.

Second Thug:
Oh, a Swell, was he?

First Thug:
That's right. And he tells me he'll give me a tenner if I follow his wife of an evening and kill the man she meets. Heh, and guess who it was.

Second Thug:
Who?

First Thug:
A priest at the cathedral. She was going there every night to pray for her son who's run off somewhere.

Second Thug:
What did you do?

First Thug:
What d'ya think? What I'd been paid to do. I'm not one to spit at a tenner.

Second Thug:
Is it time yet?

First Thug:
No. Wait 'til that light up there goes out. The gentry never think. They invite you to their house, and what, do they think you just go away after that?

Second Thug:
And there's lots of silver you say? And the woman has jewels?

First Thug:
Hidden in the same place! Can you believe it?

Second Thug:
Well, we'll just have to teach them a lesson about that. They should thank us for it.



Woman:
I told my lady the girls wouldn't clean his lordship's room with that light burning in there, they were that frightened of it.

Man:
The lights stay on of their own accord?

Woman:
He calls it Glyph energy. He's lit the whole upstairs with it now. It's a wonderful light, so gentle and bright. I like it myself, but the girls near left in a body.

Man:
I've seen Glyph lights, but not in a gentleman's house.

Woman:
But he won them over in a minute the day he got the Glyph energy to heat his bathwater for him. That's right, we carry the cans up cold now, and he's got the water hot in a twinkling.

Man:
So I should hope.
Here's everything on your list for a week, just as you asked.

Woman:
You call this a peach? Peach stone, more like. It's green!

(And my personal favorite ;) )


First Worker:
Do you hear that?

Second Worker:
Hear what?

First Worker:
Sounds like fighting below, and then a thump.

Second Worker:
Oh.

First Worker:
Like a body striking the floor.

Second Worker:
That's an evil kind of thump.

First Worker:
What shall we do?

Second Worker:
What I always do. Go on like we never heard nothing.

First Worker: (slowly)
I never heard nothing.



I could go on. It's not just the writing, but the really heavy Cockney deliveries, which extend to the "Someone aught to teach you a lesson!" "You don't belong around here!" "Well, what do we have here." grumbling voices of the thugs, etc. It's comedic, campy stuff. You didn't laugh when the Sarafan Knights kicked and screamed like girls when they died? lol, or how about when you perform those stealth kills and another adversary comes closer, then kicks the body to make sure it's dead (real helpful guys and gals, lol), then sheath their weapons and go on about their business? :p How about all of the (very inventive) usage of the environment to purposefully kill poor slobs right and left to progress. Boom! There goes a body flying out of a window. Bam! Dropped another crate on a couple of shmoes. Ooops! :p

Then, of course, there is the Sarafan Lord and his "HEEEYAAAAA!" line, like a high-pitched hyena, after having this deep, bloated voice the entire time, when he's attacking you, or his "Woah, wo-oah! Ohh-WOOOOAH!" line as Kain knocks him off of the platform. I mean, come on. There are serious parts, but this is dark comedic campiness, not dark and brooding brutality. Even the kills are almost humorous, simply because of the graphical limitations (again, part of why I think the game went into a comedic route). You have Kain tear his hand through some slob's back and rip their heart out. It's a red orb-looking thing; there's no hole or blood spot on the body, and that's it. You chop off their heads, be it woman, male, Sarafan with a helmet, or whatever, and the head the pops off is a token human peasant's head with the same hair and beard they all have. Hard to take that seriously. How about the Three Stooges head smack of the butt of the swords to the face, or the groin shots with the axes? Brutal, yeah, but like a B-movie horror film, it's also very amusing. It's made to be so. And, though I know he was insane at the time, the Magnus encounter was cheese at its finest. Dropping him off the bridges into the water, over and over. "Water is not my friend!!" and his "What?! Who?! Ooooh!" lines were comedic gold. lmao. And having him slam into things like a bull in a china shop. Or, that poor dope that just wanted to get away from him, only to be told "No, I've had my allotment for the day!" yadda yadda, then to kill him anyway.

The environments were bland, for the most part, but at least a few sections like the Hylden City/Device and especially the Eternal Prison, were nice. The EP was really better looking than the graphics making it up simply for the pallet choices. The eerie blues and greens gave it a nice touch.


As for the game on PC: I, too, play it on PC. The glitches I referred to in animations are the mouths still moving when someone stops talking. It happens even on that version. And weird things like characters looking about all around, gesturing wildly, oddities like that. The animations are just bad, unfortunately. But, it's not the glitching that happens on PS2, no.

Oh, combat. I don't know how you've been playing SR1 and 2, but you're supposed to auto-face and dodge opponents, then go in for varied hits. Sure, you can run around slashing wildly and do damage, but that looks awkward and isn't how it's meant to play. The Sarafan and other human adversaries, even the demons, in SR2, especially, block your attacks effectively. Defiance even has enemies that block, but TK and powers take care of them quickly, and the combat is much more action all of the time. As for unbeatable demons in BO2, yeah, that didn't make much sense, or add anything. In BO1, Kain's fought the same fire, green, and electricity demons that appear in SR2 and Defiance, albeit, slightly different in appearance (SR2 doesn't have green demons, actually :( ). While hard to face with just hacking with a sword in BO1, especially the green demons that poisoned you, Kain could kill them, and he could murder them quite nicely with his spells. So, this all-powerful demon that can't even be harmed and does nothing but present an annoyance, is, well, more annoying than innovative. I did like zapping the one to bloody chunks with the beam in that one chamber.


Anyway, I've stated in a previous post in this thread that I "love" the game. I should say, I love some things, like it overall. The gameplay is good, yes. I enjoy still playing it and the story, despite its cheese, but it's not the hard, brutal, moody game of seriousness you think it is. It's in the same class as Bloodrayne, with slightly better writing and acting.


Yes, there are werewolves in BO1 and they are huge wolves, not humanlike wolfmen, probably 8-10 feet tall and they run on all fours (attack on two legs). Kain also has wolf form that makes him look just like a werewolf and attack the same way. It also allows him to move like three times as fast and jump up to higher ground.

Bazielim
19th Sep 2011, 20:41
Hylden, did you just imply Cockneys were camp? :eek: Perhaps an overused cliche of criminal underclass, but not really camp (just wait till you hear some manc, geordie, scouse or west country):lmao:.
There was already a fair amount of similarity with Victorian London in BO2 (they even said "lift") and being a Londoner, of course I found the cockney accents some of the most believable parts of the game - and I'd assumed they were using the cockney as a generally accepted standard translation convention for industrial lower classes.

Mind you, I speak Estuary and I'm on the other side of the City, why am I defending Eastenders?:lol:

The_Hylden
19th Sep 2011, 21:43
Haha, no. I was saying that using the extremes of those accents for the sake of making the characters more comedic was campy. The accent, itself, is not. BO1 had characters who had Cockney accents and they were not stating goofy things, nor were they grumbling like your token thugs.

I've used the accent myself when I played a bumbling, loud detective in a dinner theater production. It's easy to take an extreme of it and do that, kind of like Peter Sellers did with Jaque Clouseau in his ever-increasingly absurd French accent. :D

Sam_kain
19th Sep 2011, 23:10
LOL Hylden, really you are over analyzing everything, If I do the same as you, I would probably never study haha :D

Probably every game got something to do with story and powers, remind me of God Of War, every title you lose your powers, and regain them back

As I said I probably missed alot of things, like the head chopping part, with the same head for everyone, but from what I heard BO2 had lower budget than SR2, I am not sure though, not to mention the limitation

But I think it is better to take every game as it is, for example BO1 was kinda like dungeon game, more or less, every other game became so different, more of adventure hack and slash

Regarding the lines, they were indeed funny, having side jokes aren't that bad now :P, at least in BO2 you got NPC, in every other game no NPC at all

And here I say it, you WIN, I can't argue with that haha, but still I am unshaked that I love this game :P, and in the end of the day, we all feel the same pain of waiting a new LoK title, by the time Defiance came out, I wasn't paying that much attention to games whatsoever, I only went to the games shop every week or something, and one day after school I went there, and Volaaaa, LoK:D, and Kain is playable, I was going to faint of excitement, damn I miss those days

Count D
11th Oct 2011, 19:16
Revisited BO2 recently... and it's not bad. It's main faults in my opinion are
1) It's almost a side-story - except for Hylden and Kain, nothing connects it to the main plot.
2) Unfortunately, we don't see Kain developing. Sure, he changes, but that's only because his memories come back. He was cruel and arrogant bastard and he still is. While it was understandable why he can't be like his Defiance self in BO1, I thought that Blood Omen 2 was to explain Kain's motives and show his development from wisely arrogant to arrogantly wise.

In other respects - the atmosphere and art style, while different, are awesome, Dark Gifts are fun to receive, bosses are nice and... yeah, I like Umah.

Ber
11th Oct 2011, 20:46
Revisited BO2 recently... and it's not bad. It's main faults in my opinion are
1) It's almost a side-story - except for Hylden and Kain, nothing connects it to the main plot.
2) Unfortunately, we don't see Kain developing. Sure, he changes, but that's only because his memories come back. He was cruel and arrogant bastard and he still is. While it was understandable why he can't be like his Defiance self in BO1, I thought that Blood Omen 2 was to explain Kain's motives and show his development from wisely arrogant to arrogantly wise.

In other respects - the atmosphere and art style, while different, are awesome, Dark Gifts are fun to receive, bosses are nice and... yeah, I like Umah.

That probably happens after BO2, when Kain finds out about the future (Raziel the Sarafan, the (Dark) Prophecy) somehow becomes more mature... but that history is yet to be explained.

Count D
12th Oct 2011, 17:42
That probably happens after BO2, when Kain finds out about the future (Raziel the Sarafan, the (Dark) Prophecy) somehow becomes more mature... but that history is yet to be explained.

Yeah, but the thing is, period of Kain learning of the future is really important part of the story and I think that's what BO2 should've been about.

Mr.Milky
7th Jan 2012, 17:05
Ok, by 'good' I mean 'above average'. Certainly it isn't a great game, but it isn't a piece of trash like some hardcore Soul Reaver/Raziel fans say, and it is a nice addition to the series, in my opinion.


In my area people praise BO2 above any other LoK game. I find that sad, actually. However, I like BO2, in the time it was one of the few games that I needed to upgrade my HD for :D it took around 2GB if I correctly remember. In the gaming area on the PC was one of the most remarkable games played and people enjoyed it a lot. They were fascinated by the ability to be a "dark hero" who'll suck blood etc. Obviously, BO2 was the first game for many PC users in my area.

People who played SR1 in my area have said that they would gladly play it again and again.

Anyway, I don't treat BO2 as a masterpiece, but it is a unique game in it's own right and I had a lot of fun playing it, anyway. Wasn't as scary as other parts, it was kind of a good change, lurking in the fog, having kill thingies etc.

People should experiment with BO titles, but not to mess up SR ones.

OugaBooga1
28th Apr 2012, 08:35
Sorry gouls & gobs, LoK - BO2 is NOT what it should have been.
BO - LOK 2 is what Most fans of that title WANT it to be.
the 2 titles are very different depending on which you see AS a true sequel.
damn, i REALLY hope the game SK is working on for their next title is the " remake" of BO-LoK or 2.

FearGhoul
28th Apr 2012, 17:34
I totally agree that Blood Omen 2 feels petty much nothing like Blood Omen. The two styles are very different, but I still enjoyed Blood Omen 2 quite a bit. Really, none of the Legacy of Kain games have felt like Blood Omen, which was more like a super violent version of The Legend of Zelda.

theshadowcult
4th May 2012, 07:39
I still believe they missed a golden opportunity with BO2, not simply the game itself, but they should have stayed true to BO1, camera, fighting, everything. It would have been much more interesting, and even highlighted the differences between Kain and Raziel. Even defiance, would have been that much better had the Raziel Sections stayed the same, but the switch to Kain changed to an Isometric zelda like game.

Count D
4th May 2012, 17:57
I still believe they missed a golden opportunity with BO2, not simply the game itself, but they should have stayed true to BO1, camera, fighting, everything. It would have been much more interesting, and even highlighted the differences between Kain and Raziel. Even defiance, would have been that much better had the Raziel Sections stayed the same, but the switch to Kain changed to an Isometric zelda like game.

I definitely wouldn't like to see that.

diuqSehT
8th Jun 2012, 22:06
If the oldschool screen was forced on you it'd feel crappy. You'd be all "why don't I get the same quality screen as Raziel gets? Waaaaah!" But if you could switch back and forth at will between 2 or 3 different views like you can in some space shooters that might be awesome. Like each view would be better than the others at showing you certain things or for using certain skills. What do you call the view we've been using? "close 3rd person" view? So if the room got crowded with enemies maybe you could switch to "Above 3rd Person" view to keep track of the action, and then when you wanted to do something with precise controls you'd switch to 1st person view which is also good for enjoying scenery.


I liked the jumping the most. And when some doorways were protected by flowing waterfalls. Nice architectural trick in a vampire world.

theshadowcult
10th Jun 2012, 10:25
If the oldschool screen was forced on you it'd feel crappy. *snip*

I find it rather disappointing, and alarmingly concerning, that you associate camera position with quality. Many isometric or side scrolling camera games far outstrip the majority of 3rd person camera games in terms of quality, the camera it self has little to do with it though, the camera is simply a point of view.

diuqSehT
10th Jun 2012, 23:32
Based on what you said, I've checked myself into a gaming clinic and will be getting the help I need. Just wanted to let you know and thank you for your concern.

(My favorite game of all time in the arcade was Xevious. It scrolled.)
(Also I've always liked Blood Omen. Never had a problem with it. One of my biggest complaints about SR2 & Defiance was how it made Moby's face too cartoonish, which kicked me out of the fantasy by making it seem goofy more than anything in Blood Omen ever had. So that was a failing of the 3D environment right there.)
(Still what I said is true. If Raziel had 3D and Kain had scrolling there'd be a bunch of folks who'd be all up in here voicing their displeasure with it. They'd be demanding screen equality for their favorite character like it was a title 9 sports issue. So in order to not have that happen, you must be envisioning a really awesome modern scrolling experience?)

Strands Of Night
11th Jun 2012, 06:58
I find it rather disappointing, and alarmingly concerning, that you associate camera position with quality. Many isometric or side scrolling camera games far outstrip the majority of 3rd person camera games in terms of quality, the camera it self has little to do with it though, the camera is simply a point of view.

I disagree with everything you said. I associate the camera angle with game quality to a degree, and most definitely to visual quality. The camera is much more than a point of view. And if you think otherwise, then show me a movie or show, with an overhead view, or with the same static side angle throughout.

In games with a lot of narration and murals on the walls, it's nice to be able to pan and zoom on the things you want to see. Not look at a tiny, skewed portrait of one of Vorador's vampire brides.

A camera that can point you in the direction you should go is a plus, so youre not lost for hours in the Oracles caves.

A foot chase with the camera behind you, showing a monster thats gaining is more thrlling than walking foreward and hearing a percussion track. (Not LoK related. But there was the "chase" with Raz escaping EG at the beginning of Defiance. Tell me it would be as thrilling in a side scroll.)

The top of a person's head is not the most interesting thing to look at for hours. How could I marvel at Raziel's missing jaw or torso if I am only allowed to see it in cut-scenes at only certain angles, for two second cuts in a conversation?

And with the power of gaming systems today why would a big company like Square Enix restrict themselves with a side scroll or overhead game? These are two dimensional perspectives. Side scroll I can jump from platform to platform just fine, but try to walk around the guard in the hallway... The opposite is true with overhead. I can now walk around the guard I dont want to fight, but I can't jump very well. And with the rise in popularity of 3D entertainmet, who wants to buy a 2d perspective game for their new 3D tv?

I enjoyed BO1, dont get me wrong. But I'm afraid the days of side scrollers and overhead views are largely over. They are not dynamic, narrative, or exciting for the most part. Movies aren't shot that way for those reasons... It's (more than) kinda boring.

So enjoy Zelda and Mega-Man. But keep in mind that Kain doesn't enjoy chopping grass for rupees, Raziel doesn't have an arm blaster, and I don't enjoy looking for head lice in the hair of the main character.

FearGhoul
11th Jun 2012, 23:53
Hey, I still like side scrolling games. That Mario Brothers game on the Wii was a lot of fun. Of course, I'm actually in the process of playing Secret of Mana and only recently beat the original Legend of Zelda, so I like old games just fine.

theshadowcult
20th Jun 2012, 07:28
In games with a lot of narration and murals on the walls, it's nice to be able to pan and zoom on the things you want to see. Not look at a tiny, skewed portrait of one of Vorador's vampire brides.

A camera that can point you in the direction you should go is a plus, so youre not lost for hours in the Oracles caves.

A foot chase with the camera behind you, showing a monster thats gaining is more thrlling than walking foreward and hearing a percussion track. (Not LoK related. But there was the "chase" with Raz escaping EG at the beginning of Defiance. Tell me it would be as thrilling in a side scroll.)

The top of a person's head is not the most interesting thing to look at for hours. How could I marvel at Raziel's missing jaw or torso if I am only allowed to see it in cut-scenes at only certain angles, for two second cuts in a conversation?

And with the power of gaming systems today why would a big company like Square Enix restrict themselves with a side scroll or overhead game? These are two dimensional perspectives. Side scroll I can jump from platform to platform just fine, but try to walk around the guard in the hallway... The opposite is true with overhead. I can now walk around the guard I dont want to fight, but I can't jump very well. And with the rise in popularity of 3D entertainmet, who wants to buy a 2d perspective game for their new 3D tv?

I enjoyed BO1, dont get me wrong. But I'm afraid the days of side scrollers and overhead views are largely over. They are not dynamic, narrative, or exciting for the most part. Movies aren't shot that way for those reasons... It's (more than) kinda boring.

So enjoy Zelda and Mega-Man. But keep in mind that Kain doesn't enjoy chopping grass for rupees, Raziel doesn't have an arm blaster, and I don't enjoy looking for head lice in the hair of the main character.


Not sure what your argument is against. It was never said Scrolling views were better for cutscenes? I have no idea where you would even get that, BO 1 HAS full 3d cutscenes... There are plenty of times where BO1 shows off the characters in views other than top down.

As for power and graphics, up until crysis, Valkyire Profile 2 had the single best looking environment details in any game. It was side scrolling... AND on the PS2... in fact, the Side Scrolling graphics in the game were so goode, it made the full 3d fight graphics look like they were made for the PS1...

Renegade Ops, made on the same engine as Just Cause 2... is a top down game, and looks remarkably better than Just Cause 2 does graphically.

Also, no one said anything about Raziel being played in an isometric view... we were talking about using the camera as an example of the differences between the characters. Having KAIN played as he was in the first game, would have made the combat, which was exactly the same for both characters in every game after Soul Reaver, feel different, even when using the same combat mechanics.

Strands Of Night
20th Jun 2012, 08:56
We obviously feel two very different ways. I can enjoy side scrollers, or isometric views. But I find true 3D much more immersive.

As far as the cut scenes, <<mod edit: removed offensive terminology>>, if I feel so inclined (or position my character against a beautiful vista). Cant usually do that from a fixed camera top down, or side view without it being script in, or as a cut scene.

I guess I just don't perfer scrollers, or isometric games. Don't get me wrong, I had hours of fun in BO1 doing tornado spins with the axes (Malice and Havoc was it) while wearing the flesh armor. I just wouldn't like to do it that way again.

The_Hylden
20th Jun 2012, 09:05
Strands Of Night, please kindly refer to Rule #1 (http://forums.eidosgames.com/announcement.php?a=50#rule1) of our Terms of Use (http://forums.eidosgames.com/announcement.php?f=72&a=50) that you agreed to when you signed up and do not use such offensive terminology again, please.

Thanks.

Count D
13th Sep 2012, 09:29
Now, thinking of character of Umah... I think she did develop. Well, the way she thinks about Kain developed. First, she greets him as a great general of the past, a figure she heard of a lot. Then she gets colder, when she sees his arrogance. Then she sees power behind that arrogance and starts worrying, which concludes in her betraying Kain out of fear.
Some tales she might have heard from Vorador could add insult to injury.
Speaking of which...
I actually understand why in BO2 and Defiance Vorador isn't the sado-hedonist he was in BO1. It's not the Vorador we met! We only have seen the pre-William Vorador, one of many vampires of Nosgoth, not the post-William Vorador the Penultimate Vampire. After some dolt killed William the Just, while showing everyone that he's a vampire, Vorador's kind was hunted and he became the last, aside from that young Kain kid. So the meeting of post-William Kain with Vorador and Vorry's motivation for giving him the signet ring could be very different. Now why does Kain call him a "reformed sado-hedonist"? Because he remembers the old pre-William Vorador due to being the one time-traveling and paradoxing everything.

And damn, BO2 is actually really entertaining.

Here comes a lot of text. Viewer discretion is advised.
What is right about Blood Omen 2:
1. The art style and atmosphere. Yes, Dan is the man, I love his work on SR1-2-Defiance, but Steve Ross did some awesome job and his style fits Kain really well. Yeah, some themes were recycled from the unreleased (and essentially undeveloped) Chakan sequel, but still, they fit really well. And no, Kain's outfit is not ripoff of Chakan's, since Chakan's outfit from the unreleased sequel was different from his outfit in the comics and in the original game and was, in fact, Steve's design. And a nice design too, it would be a shame if it was to be unused. Aside from the art, Jim Hedges' music, including the awesome Blood Omen 2 theme, that became Kain's theme in Defiance add a lot to the atmosphere. So does the lighting, the very look of Meridian. So do Meridian's citizens, which aren't just blood bags, waiting for you to kill them and suck their blood.
2. The game's structure and use of levels. Yes, levels instead of open world make the game less open for exploration and more linear. But I prefer levels done right (BO2) to open world done wrong (SR2). SR2 was linear as hell, there was no exploration whatsoever, open world was there just because it was in SR1 (which did it right) and it felt really, really small. It felt really artificial and if in SR1 I could turn a blind eye to it because of all the exploration and the fact that it's on PS1, I expected a lot from SR2. BO2 provided a nice contrast - it had the level system, but the levels, starting with Lower City were damn huge. Meridian felt like a real city and you feel like there's a lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes. Sadly, Defiance didn't do levels as right, as BO2.
3. The combat system. Blood Omen 2 has the best version of post-BO pre-Defiance "Autoface" system. SR1's was taken back by lack of weaponry and the necessity to devour the soul of every opponent before it escapes (never mind that there might be two more vamps attacking you), plus there wasn't many opponents. SR2 was just underwelming and fatalities felt out of character for goody-two-shoes-I'm-a-hero-not-a-selfish-bastard-like-that-Kain-guy Raziel. Blood Omen 2's combat system was quick, simple, but had a lot of space for some of... let's be honest, sadism. Come on, who of you didn't like to pick up the guy and ***** slap him across the room? Especially if the guy in question is Sebastian. And a variety of animations for grab hits and stealth kills (which were awesome by themselves) adds a lot of fun - you really want to know which animation your new toy has. And yes, in BO2 you need to drink blood of enemies to get lore, but it doesn't feel as mandatory as it was in SR1 - there's no time element to it, you can just do that whenever you want, if you don't do it, the opponent won't rise, even stronger, than he was before. You still devour every enemy, but in BO2 you do it because you have a reward for doing it, not because you're punished for not doing it.
4. The story is not that bad. The Hylden are pretty interesting opponent visually - I prefer them being alien-like and adding more distinction to Nosgoth as opposed to other fantasy world than being yet-another-elves or yet-another-orcs or whatever. The story is basic and gives Kain reasons for taking action himself - he wouldn't have to, if he already was the emperor. Kain himself is portrayed believably - he's different from BO1 and SR1-2-Defiance selves in a pretty realistic way - more arrogant and sadistic than ever before after 200 years of being a vampire, but still not as wise as he'll get by the time his first-born son grows wings. I wrote about Vorador's portrayal above, a person here wrote a nice note on his very presence in the game. As for Janos, he is believable too - Hylden Lord was his nemesis for The Elder God knows how long and he spent last 400 years being tormented by him and all this while looking like a hideous beast, so of course he would be a bit unstable. Umah and the Seer are not bad - I think they are welcome addition to the series, because they keep it from becoming a sausage fest. I mean, yeah, there is Ariel, but she is dead on arrival.
5. The bosses. No point in elaborating on this one.

The_Hylden
13th Sep 2012, 11:29
Count D, please use the edit feature instead of double posting. Also, please do not try and circumvent the language filter.

Thanks.

Count D
13th Sep 2012, 12:03
Count D, please use the edit feature instead of double posting. Also, please do not try and circumvent the language filter.

Thanks.

Sorry.

Strands Of Night
13th Sep 2012, 16:15
Meh.... I can agree with some of that.

But as far as Umah is concerned, sure shes a welcome addition as a character. But for me, the relationship between her and Kain was not. Kain at this point is already several centuries old. A vampire of that age (and of Kains overbearing pride and ego) is not going to be interested in something as human as love.

"The blood is the life." Hes not interested in mating. The blood is his love.

But thats just me. Kains heart shaped eyes kinda ruined the atmosphere for me.

Count D
13th Sep 2012, 18:04
Meh.... I can agree with some of that.

But as far as Umah is concerned, sure shes a welcome addition as a character. But for me, the relationship between her and Kain was not. Kain at this point is already several centuries old. A vampire of that age (and of Kains overbearing pride and ego) is not going to be interested in something as human as love.

"The blood is the life." Hes not interested in mating. The blood is his love.

But thats just me. Kains heart shaped eyes kinda ruined the atmosphere for me.

Well, love is not all about mating. It's as much as emotional and mind-driven, as it is sexual-driven. And then again, it was not relationship between her and Kain - his crush was entirely one-sided and not many attention was paid to it - Umah wasn't even secondary in Kain's plans. First there was the Sarafan Lord, then there was reconquering Nosgoth and only after those two was her.
And well, at least his sexual orientation is confirmed, which is fine by me.

Strands Of Night
13th Sep 2012, 18:15
Touche!

But i still dont like it ... The touchy feely heart part I mean.

Count D
13th Sep 2012, 19:12
Well, if Kain has fatherly feelings towards Raziel, why shouldn't he have romantic feelings towards ladies? He isn't heartless after all. He's just arrogant, proud, ruthless, sadistic and power-hungry enough to make you think he is.

The_Hylden
13th Sep 2012, 19:25
That wasn't a one-way "crush" on Kain's part. Umah: "I wish it had been different for us, Kain." That confirms she felt things for him also. She seemed to be one part distrustful (rightfully so) and want part wishing Kain would prove himself better than what she'd heard from Vorador, which made her realization he wasn't when he threatened her so elaborately and coldly that much more dissapointing, I am sure.

It's understandable that Kain would want to share his conquest with soemone, as even he would find immortality completely alone probably not worth it (his doomed empire later proves that). However, the problem is they shoehorned this "relationship," such as it was, without much depth to it, or forethought. As he states, she leads him around like a dog, yet he's somehow drawn to that? The first pretty face he awakens to, he falls for? He's completely only after revenge and to let off a lot of inner anger the moment he remembers what the SL did to him. That's the majority of his concern no matter the cost, or logic half the time; yet the moment she enters the scene, it's like one moment, rage! boasting!, the next, "She was in my thoughts..." Not very likely. Nor is it likely she can see much in him, other than dynamic confidence and power, I guess. However, she continues to treat him with almost a motherly caring, as he constantly boasts and tosses her advice to the side (and threatens her and all creation).

Like most going on in BO2, the motivations for any of this just aren't fleshed out, and it's just there to be there. It's written almost comically in its campiness, but it's still enjoyable to play through.

Tox1cboy
20th Mar 2013, 17:06
I just finished BO2 and I loved it! I just wish Legacy of Kain: Defiance was also reverse compatible on the 360 :(

The game wasn't perfect, the Human models were pretty terrible, but the environments were gorgeous (besides the 4x3 aspect ratio, it felt like I was playing an HD re-release).

Plus it was just fun spending time with Kain, I think he often gets overshadowed by Raziel but he's a really great character.

theshadowcult
21st Mar 2013, 06:29
I just finished BO2 and I loved it! I just wish Legacy of Kain: Defiance was also reverse compatible on the 360 :(

The game wasn't perfect, the Human models were pretty terrible, but the environments were gorgeous (besides the 4x3 aspect ratio, it felt like I was playing an HD re-release).

Plus it was just fun spending time with Kain, I think he often gets overshadowed by Raziel but he's a really great character.

Overshadowed? The first game is the longest, by far. Has the most dialog too, then he is the main antagonist in both of raziel's games, then he gets a second game which raziel is not in, then he is the main role in the last game... he over shadows Raziel a LOT. Raziel just gets more mention, because a huge amount of the legacy of kain series fans started with the second game, soul reaver, and have never played the first, or only played it afterwards.

You always get more attached to the hero you learn through first. Looking at the games themselves though, kain does not get overshadowed, not even once. I take it back about the not even once bit, he is supposed to fade out a bit in defiance, so i yeah he does get overlooked there sometimes.

Count D
21st Mar 2013, 06:53
Overshadowed? The first game is the longest, by far. Has the most dialog too, then he is the main antagonist in both of raziel's games, then he gets a second game which raziel is not in, then he is the main role in the last game... he over shadows Raziel a LOT. Raziel just gets more mention, because a huge amount of the legacy of kain series fans started with the second game, soul reaver, and have never played the first, or only played it afterwards.

You always get more attached to the hero you learn through first. Looking at the games themselves though, kain does not get overshadowed, not even once. I take it back about the not even once bit, he is supposed to fade out a bit in defiance, so i yeah he does get overlooked there sometimes.

Raziel is objectively much more popular than Kain.

Bazielim
21st Mar 2013, 13:34
Raziel is objectively much more popular than Kain.
I gotta admit, I find this to be something of a continuum - the more immersed in LoK and the lore of the series fans become, the more they lean towards Kain as the more interesting character with the most depth (and with less of an angst-filled whiny attitude;)).

Raziel more popular? quite possibly - but a lot of those are comparatively 'shallow' fans, often having played only one or two of the games (and not even necessarily completing it). I'd say Raziel is certainly more marketable based on his 'cool' and unusual image, whereas Kain and his characterisation and personality are more distinguishable and epic ingredients to the Legacy - and arguably the biggest asset of the series as a whole (it has been treated as such by developers in the past).

Count D
21st Mar 2013, 14:17
I gotta admit, I find this to be something of a continuum - the more immersed in LoK and the lore of the series fans become, the more they lean towards Kain as the more interesting character with the most depth (and with less of an angst-filled whiny attitude;)).

Raziel more popular? quite possibly - but a lot of those are comparatively 'shallow' fans, often having played only one or two of the games (and not even necessarily completing it). I'd say Raziel is certainly more marketable based on his 'cool' and unusual image, whereas Kain and his characterisation and personality are more distinguishable and epic ingredients to the Legacy - and arguably the biggest asset of the series as a whole (it has been treated as such by developers in the past).

I wouldn't call them shallow - "casual" is the word I'd pick. No need to offend people for not liking something we like enough. Raziel is, yes, more marketable - and is also somewhat more sympathetic and identifiable with for the casual onlooker. He was wronged in the beginning of his game and he sets to do things right. Only when you look at Kain's past and his true motives, you see that he's much more than a shallow two-dimensional villain and is, in his way, more heroic. That's why I love when Kain calls Raziel out on his self-image
"Let's drop the moral posturing, shall we? We both know there's no altruism in this pursuit! Your... reckless indignation led you here, I counted on it! There's no shame in it, Raziel. Revenge is motivation enough. At least, it's honest. Hate me - but do it honestly!"

Bazielim
21st Mar 2013, 14:34
right you are Count D, "casual" was the word I was looking for - not that I'd consider "shallow" as necessarily particularly insulting; in this context it was meant just an indication of the relative depth of fan involvement with the series, rather than any commentary on anyone's personality - but indeed it was 'casual gamers' I was getting at. Cheers:)

Agree with you wholeheartedly on the points about Kain and Raziel there as well, though I would say that Kain was always more complicated than a 'shallow' villain - unless you played SR1 completely unaware of BO1's existence, Kain has always been a shade of grey... and those are always the best characters

Count D
21st Mar 2013, 15:22
right you are Count D, "casual" was the word I was looking for - not that I'd consider "shallow" as necessarily particularly insulting; in this context it was meant just an indication of the relative depth of fan involvement with the series, rather than any commentary on anyone's personality - but indeed it was 'casual gamers' I was getting at. Cheers:)

Agree with you wholeheartedly on the points about Kain and Raziel there as well, though I would say that Kain was always more complicated than a 'shallow' villain - unless you played SR1 completely unaware of BO1's existence, Kain has always been a shade of grey... and those are always the best characters
Yeah, I was referring to players, myself included, who played SR1 first, perceiving Kain as nothing but a villain. I mean, the game itself seems to want players to think so, only to turn it all upside-down later. He is one of the greyest characters I've ever seen, for both his heroic aspirations and his villainous deeds are pretty epic.

The_Hylden
21st Mar 2013, 15:32
I don't think you guys have been around enough of the very dedicated and not casual at all fangirls. They love their Razzy, and they know the series inside and out. :p They can also be quite mad, lol, but in a good way ... I think...

Yeah, something like that...

Strands Of Night
21st Mar 2013, 16:26
All this talk of greyness made me think: Kain is definitely a 50 shades of grey vampire.

Oh yes. I went there!

Bazielim
21st Mar 2013, 16:50
Oh, I still remember the Razfangirls Hylden (*ducks flying masonry*);), just haven't seen any making waves in a very long time and personally know quite a few that ultimately ended up changing their 'allegiance' to Kain as they (and the series) matured (I know age was ultimately what did it for me). Of course, it may just be that the (relatively) recent SR1 reboot rumours have dragged up all the casual "oh I remember Soul Reaver!" Razfans that's giving the impression.

HeHe Strands went there!.... though I'm sure some deviant artists (and I mean deviant lol) have been there already - brain bleach on standby:lol:

Tox1cboy
21st Mar 2013, 18:05
Overshadowed? The first game is the longest, by far. Has the most dialog too, then he is the main antagonist in both of raziel's games, then he gets a second game which raziel is not in, then he is the main role in the last game... he over shadows Raziel a LOT. Raziel just gets more mention, because a huge amount of the legacy of kain series fans started with the second game, soul reaver, and have never played the first, or only played it afterwards.

You always get more attached to the hero you learn through first. Looking at the games themselves though, kain does not get overshadowed, not even once. I take it back about the not even once bit, he is supposed to fade out a bit in defiance, so i yeah he does get overlooked there sometimes.

I just meant by fans. Raziel seems to be the more popular of the two. Now days it seems like he's the one more closely associated with the series (at least by those who don't know it really well). In almost all of the reports I've read about the Domain registration/possible new game, its Raziel's picture that tops the article.

Lord_Aevum
21st Mar 2013, 18:50
Yes, there can't really be any argument that Raziel has always had more mind share than Kain to the general audience. I think you could draw up a whole laundry list of reasons as to why this is, many of which would come down to the point that Soul Reaver 1 is widely considered a classic game, but I really wouldn't say that any sort of defect in Kain's character or lack of potential on his part is responsible.

It should be noted that Raziel probably does have more screen time than Kain overall. Aside from the point that Soul Reaver 2 has almost twice as much dialogue as Blood Omen 1, Raziel also has way longer chapters in Defiance, and is officially its main character (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=72#p72). That's three out of five games dedicated to him.


It's important to remember one thing: Defiance was a part of the SR trilogy with Raziel as the hero. It wasn't about giving equal screen time to Kain.. He already stole a ton of spotlight with his few chapters.

He also gets top billing above Kain in the Defiance credits:

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/4153/defiancecredits.png

Count D
21st Mar 2013, 18:57
And it's really sad.

Tox1cboy
21st Mar 2013, 19:21
Yes, there can't really be any argument that Raziel has always had more mind share than Kain to the general audience. I think you could draw up a whole laundry list of reasons as to why this is, many of which would come down to the point that Soul Reaver 1 is widely considered a classic game, but I really wouldn't say that any sort of defect in Kain's character or lack of potential on his part is responsible.

It should be noted that Raziel probably does have more screen time than Kain overall. Aside from the point that Soul Reaver 2 has almost twice as much dialogue as Blood Omen 1, Raziel also has way longer chapters in Defiance, and is officially its main character (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=72#p72). That's three out of five games dedicated to him.



He also gets top billing above Kain in the Defiance credits:

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/4153/defiancecredits.png

Maybe its also because Raziel is more of a sympathetic character.

Kain is deeply complicated, and not as sympathetic (outwardly), but that's what I like about him. He may be an arrogant fool, but he isn't one dimensional.

Count D
21st Mar 2013, 19:30
Maybe its also because Raziel is more of a sympathetic character.

Kain is deeply complicated, and not as sympathetic (outwardly), but that's what I like about him. He may be an arrogant fool, but he isn't one dimensional.
A fool? The man who has managed to outwit a time-traveling godlike near-omniscient abomination without even having free will can't be a fool.

The_Hylden
21st Mar 2013, 20:04
Originally Posted by DCab
It's important to remember one thing: Defiance was a part of the SR trilogy with Raziel as the hero. It wasn't about giving equal screen time to Kain.. He already stole a ton of spotlight with his few chapters.


Honestly, this statement bothers me. First, the game was not ever marketed, or covered in the press, or on the box, etc., as the third in the SR trilogy. Quite the contrary; they went out of their way to state that this game was a true sequel to and merger of both SR and BO branches. Second, it was touted as play as both protagonists, with much of the demo coverage always on Kain's chapters, and the press stating things like "for the first time, play as Kain in his demigod form," etc. Third, it was also divided up almost equally in chapters. Kain has the odd chapters and Raziel has the even ones. So, I'm kind of at a loss as to why the team making it, according to Daniel Cabuco there, had entirely other intentions to make Kain the second banana within the story. It says something, frankly. They should have put more effort into Kain's side, since they marketed it as an equal outing for both. Yes, we know Raziel's through line is shoring up his story, but that doesn't mean Kain is just there to chew scenery when his chapters are on. That's strange to me.

I don't like to criticize the team with hindsight, especially after all of these years, but it sure seems that they didn't spend as much time appreciating the character that is Kain. And as much as Kain does make the best of what he has to do in Defiance, now it becomes apparent why he was just there half the time to battle the same monotonous statues again and again, until the meat of the story came back around.

Count D
21st Mar 2013, 20:12
I have, on more than one occasion, found some things Dan said strange. Well... that's what you get when you ask the artist about story.

Lord_Aevum
21st Mar 2013, 21:03
Kain's character was essentially misinterpreted by the Blood Omen 2 team and lobotomised by its writers (sorry thread creator), and that and his Soul Reaver incarnation (whose maniacal laughter after each boss fight didn't help his case) were unfortunately the most widely-marketed portrayals of him. This is the portfolio of Kain the deranged, unlikeable brute, not the heroic, reasonable figure from BO1, SR2 and Defiance.

I would personally say Kain is more sympathetic and, especially, more selfless than Raziel, but this does not necessarily come through to every player, because his motives are more nuanced and sometimes had to be clarified in interviews (i.e. why does he refuse the sacrifice? why execute Raziel?). Even his Wikipedia article referred to him as "amoral" until I rewrote it last year. Therefore, though there are very casual players who do appreciate that Kain is an important character, they might not all clamour to play as him over Raziel based on what they've seen. Raziel's motives are usually very simple in comparison, yes, generally revolving around anger against some form of injustice. He's also never been portrayed as manipulative. Amy Hennig (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/10/12/behind-the-classics-amy-hennig-talks-soul-reaver-secrets/):


It’s impossible for me to choose between Raziel and Kain – they’re two inseparable sides of the same coin (so to speak). As a character, I probably like Kain more. Although ostensibly a villain, he’s really a classic hero, fighting for free will in a world shackled by Fate. Raziel is a more tragic figure, a pawn, and that makes him sympathetic – but he’s also a deeply flawed character, blinded by self-righteousness and vengeance. I loved writing for both of them.


~snip~

I will happily make a wager with you that Kain would have been portrayed very differently in Defiance if only the Soul Reaver team had been aware that it would be the final LoK game for at least a decade. Unless this isn't put into proper context, the objection doesn't weigh up. If you recall, the project began existence as SR3 (http://uk.gamespot.com/legacy-of-kain-defiance/previews/legacy-of-kain-defiance-designer-diary-1-6077249/?page=2), whereas the BO2 team explicitly said they expected to continue what they were doing with more of their own sequels for Kain (http://uk.gamespot.com/blood-omen-2/previews/blood-omen-2-designer-diary-1-2853830/?page=3) - when BO2 fell flat on its face, outdated in its own time, those plans were apparently abandoned. BO2 came out in 2002 when Defiance had already started production.

Now, if you stack up an $8 million budget (http://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewbennett) (same as SR1!), less production time than SR2 (18 months was beyond pushing it), external crisis with four or five presidents of Eidos coming and going (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/6567/EGM-Nov-2012-Amy-Hennig-Interview-Hennigs-History-wCD#.UUtzVRc4FrM) with these weird mandates to dilute parts of the game like crazy, Amy getting courted by Naughty Dog and losing interest due to the broken career ladder over Tomb Raider, and then add on top of this a stack of continuity holes to start resolving from a sloppy script which you had nothing to do with, you may have an uphill battle. We know by their own testament that the folks working on Defiance had a hard time trying to squeeze in a good plot to begin with (http://totalplaystation.com/ps2/legacy-of-kain-defiance/news/3095/), let alone one trying to account for the dog's dinner of problems the BO2 team left behind in their wake.

For Defiance to come out and have not only successfully managed to shoehorn Kain in to the extent that we think he passes as the main character, but for it to actually have confronted BO2 as a problem to solve instead of ignoring it or saying "you shouldn't have bought that game, it's non-canon", and, on top of that, for Kain to walk out of it at the end as the surviving character, is what I would call a success story and a genuine exercise in humility on the Soul Reaver team's part. They had every right to simply say whatever to artistic integrity, not our problem, we're not going to risk our jobs over the fiction of some video games, let's phone it in and develop our bi-annual Raziel game as planned, but instead they basically did a brave thing and retired Soul Reaver in lieu of giving Blood Omen the right of way.

I don't mean to fawn over them or make drama out of their choices, as I agree totally that the finished product has flaws, and that Kain has been gimped in the grand scheme of the series, but at least they tried, that's more than you can say for most in a world filled with reboots and poor writing. We can say you should have done this from the here and now, but I don't know that the team wouldn't think similarly in the same position we're standing in. Dan's comment relates to Defiance, but not to the series. He's said quite clearly himself that Raziel was done with as far as the whole team was concerned, and that any future this series might have should belong to Kain.

Tox1cboy
22nd Mar 2013, 07:32
A fool? The man who has managed to outwit a time-traveling godlike near-omniscient abomination without even having free will can't be a fool.

Yes but a man, who's actions are blinded by his arrogance, and in the process destroys everything he touches, can be. He's not a clown, that's not what I mean (far from it, in fact), but in thinking only of himself he's caused misery and death for an entire land. His foolishness is his thinking he can do whatever he wants without consequence.

The fact that he seems to see this, and wishes to change it, means something. Unless I'm misunderstanding why he travels through time.

Count D
22nd Mar 2013, 07:58
Yes but a man, who's actions are blinded by his arrogance, and in the process destroys everything he touches, can be. He's not a clown, that's not what I mean (far from it, in fact), but in thinking only of himself he's caused misery and death for an entire land. His foolishness is his thinking he can do whatever he wants without consequence.

The fact that he seems to see this, and wishes to change it, means something. Unless I'm misunderstanding why he travels through time.

It was stated, that he did think only of himself, but he also thought of the fate of vampire species in general - he was the last vampire, if he is to die, then his race will extinct. He decided to try and take a third option, so both he can live and so can the Pillars. Besides, I think even if we go with "arrogance" option, I think his decision to refuse the sacrifice was more of an act of defiance, than egotism. Look at this: the man's destiny - to be the head of the Guardians, the most powerful beings in Nosgoth and de facto ruler of the land - was kept in secret from him, then he was murdered in cold blood and manipulated into destroying his brethren and after he's done so much hard work for Nosgoth, what does he get? A proposal to go and jump on a sword. I think, that in conquering Nosgoth Kain saw a way to right his destiny and rule the land as he should.

theshadowcult
22nd Mar 2013, 10:49
I personally think that everything turned out fantastic with defiance's writing, i think they did a great job. It was a wonderful end to an amazing story.

I also want to say, that i love the fact that this thread keeps going after six years!!

The_Hylden
22nd Mar 2013, 17:28
I also have read Daniel say that he grew to appreciate Kain's character more during their work on SR1 and 2. The wording there in his quote is probably just worse than what was meant.

The timeframe for pumping out these sequels were one of the main problems, to be sure. Reading that article from Riley Cooper, I have to disagree that SR2 has at least just as much of a resolution as Defiance does, and I feel that had the stronger overall complete story than Defiance. But regardless, they did do an admirable job trying to maintain the story and to keep the continuity going.


I also loved the writing in Defiance for both characters. The middle of the game when Kain reaches the Citadel is where it drags. It doesn't pick up again until after Raziel's revelations in Avernus and their battle. Even though I appreciate Ariel, Vorador, and Janos' presence, Raziel basically retreads a lot of water there. The story moves forward again once Avernus' catacombs on through happen.


As for Kain's motivations back when he refused the sacrifice, one must also remember he's been tainted with Nupraptor's madness and that he was far younger and brasher when he chose what he did at the Pillars. Yes, the outcome turned out to be the right course to at least allow for some other outcome potential than extinction, but his reasons for doing so at the time where before he had knowledge of the Chronoplast. He knew he was the last vampire, so that much weighed in, and that he had been used by all who supposed to have Nosgoth's good intentions at heart. I am sure that anger, injury, and a sense of arrogance and egotism entered into it. He'd probably be the first one to admit their wasn't any altruism in that choice.

However, a lot of time has passed and a lot of lament has been made known on his part at what his empire, built on the ruins of Nosgoth, came to. As he says in Defiance, "I could restore the world, perhaps, but never again could I give Nosgoth back her innocence." He is more than implying he, along with all others who've abused power in Nosgoth, have lead to this profound injury that can't really be wiped clean. He's trying his best, though. No matter his joke, he's certainly not heartless, in the end ;)

Feliciano182
31st Mar 2013, 05:44
Kain's character was essentially misinterpreted by the Blood Omen 2 team and lobotomised by its writers (sorry thread creator), and that and his Soul Reaver incarnation (whose maniacal laughter after each boss fight didn't help his case) were unfortunately the most widely-marketed portrayals of him. This is the portfolio of Kain the deranged, unlikeable brute, not the heroic, reasonable figure from BO1, SR2 and Defiance.

I might have to disagree here, partially at least.

Surely there was miscomunication and misinterpretation in regards to what was the idea behind some characters in The Legacy Of Kain series, like Vorador and the nature of his relationship with Kain for example; but overall, Kain's depiction in BO2 is fantastic, and unlike anything we've seen in videogames, rarely can you meet a character as callous and yet with such a large moral conscience as Kain.

The fact that he has to rationalize Umah's murder when he faced the Sarafan Lord, that he would elaborate this conspiracy surrounding him by making up a completely false and irrational stories right before his only friend and ally, and later with his mortal enemy is something I feel people have dissapointingly glossed over simply because of their quick dismissal of BO2.

Surely that game had great flaws, but credit's due where it's due.

Lord_Aevum
31st Mar 2013, 15:54
I can't speak for anybody else, but to say it is quick dismissal in my case isn't necessarily true. I played BO2 as early as 2002 and I've formulated this after poring through the stories of the whole series more times than I care to admit, and believe me when I say I've revised my opinion a few times to reach my conclusion. No question that it might well still be an opinion riddled with errors and fallacies, but here is my defence.

In my reckoning, Kain in BO2 is almost too obliquely portrayed to be the same individual from the rest of LoK. Why is he fantastic? I could cherrypick a few great lines which evoke the spirit of the BO1 version, but on the whole he's essentially characterised as somebody who desperately wants to get the Soul Reaver back and conquer Nosgoth, and will mindlessly kill anybody who gets in his way to despotism. His motives for doing so (beyond nebulous survival) are never so much as glossed over in the script, there is very little moral dilemma or thematic fuel, only one offhand mention of the metaplot involving the notions of the Pillars, the Balance Guardian, extinction and sacrifice, and his final epiphany from BO1, probably the most important piece of dialogue to preserve and build upon in a sequel, is instead completely sabotaged by the line "your imprisonment has damaged your mind [...] the curse of vampirism is no mark of divinity".

Understandable cynicism and nihilism tempered with some mix of poetic arrogance and humility from BO1 is replaced by rampant megalomania and bravado to the point of high egotism ("they will fear me, do you hear?"). The only philosophical undertone in BO2 asks who is going to be the better tyrant, Kain or the Sarafan Lord, and it's a poor show that I would've felt total sympathy for the Sarafan Lord if it weren't for his messy Device/Mass genocide subplot. You might argue that Sebastian is an isolated example of somebody throwing Kain under the bus out of opportunism rather than sincere objection, but that isn't an excuse for Kain to become wildly paranoid about everyone and everything around him to the point of catastrophe, wrongfully murdering Umah and suspecting even Vorador of treachery. The enduring implication is that BO2 Kain is an insipid person who inspires no loyalty in anybody but Magnus.

Kain of BO1 had his origins in the main character of the film Unforgiven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unforgiven). On the other hand, the character seen in BO2 was inspired by Kefka Palazzo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefka_Palazzo), an outright madman. You may not have seen this character archetype as the leading role very often in other media; probably because it's the stereotypical villain, a fundamentally unsympathetic one which warrants rejection from the audience. The funny thing is, BO1 Kain, despite being much more subtle in nature, was explicitly given an empathetic justification for his questionable traits because he was corrupted with insanity through circumstances he had literally no control over. That isn't even hinted at in BO2, which in a vacuum would therefore suggest that Kain is a hyper-suspicious loon of his own making. The big issue is that this was probably a deliberate exaggeration of his negative aspects.

It would have been great to seize the opportunity to elaborate on Kain's madness after he's spent a few hundred years as a vampire, if they had actually made an attempt to do so by acknowledging it in the game. We can be nearly certain that the BO2 team portrayed Kain the way they did with an emphasis on linking to SR1, and intended the bad leadership/treachery subplot to relate back to Kain executing Raziel, but, amusingly, SR2 and Defiance explain quite clearly that the execution wasn't actually motivated by some superficial jealousy or villainy: it was entirely rational, and, again, beyond his control, making any need for rationales along the lines of "cowards and traitors deserve no second thoughts, only their complete annihilation" moot.

For better analyses and explanations on this subject than I can give, please see this post (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=926033&postcount=106) and this thread (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=143).

Amy Hennig got it so right when she said (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig), as early as SR1's post-production, "Kain is by no means a monster or mustache-twirling villain, though - in many ways, he's a more complex and sympathetic character than Raziel himself". Conversely, marketing for BO2 touted the phrase "play as Kain - the most evil character to ever appear in a video game". I would say that sums it up; it's literally character assassination. The games are "really for two different tastes". Very sorry for writing another essay post, I would not even want to get started on the issues with Vorador or the Hylden Lord because it would then eventually run to three pages.

Strands Of Night
31st Mar 2013, 17:38
Corlagon: :thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:

I never understood the romantic subplot between Kain and Umah, and though it was unnessesary and, to be honest, stupid. But thats my opinion. Vampires are vampires... Killers, hunters, and puppeteers. Companionship I understand, but love... Pfft.

Feliciano182
31st Mar 2013, 23:49
Kain in BO2 is almost too obliquely portrayed to be the same individual from the rest of LoK. Why is he fantastic? I could cherrypick a few great lines which evoke the spirit of the BO1 version, but on the whole he's essentially characterised as somebody who desperately wants to get the Soul Reaver back and conquer Nosgoth, and will mindlessly kill anybody who gets in his way to despotism. His motives for doing so (beyond nebulous survival) are never so much as glossed over in the script, there is very little moral dilemma or thematic fuel, only one offhand mention of the metaplot involving the notions of the Pillars, the Balance Guardian, extinction and sacrifice, and his final epiphany from BO1, probably the most important piece of dialogue to preserve and build upon in a sequel, is instead completely sabotaged by the line "your imprisonment has damaged your mind [...] the curse of vampirism is no mark of divinity".

To clarify, I wasn't out to say that Blood Omen 2 is an overlooked gem or anything of the sort, but I think people give it perhaps too much crap without opening their minds a bit to what good it does in many instances; it is undeniable of course that the game has many many many problems outside of it's gameplay, and that some things just don't add up, however, for what it does right, it does so very well.

I must say, I'm a little bothered by people thinking the character is somehow "misinterpreted" from BO1, do we not see in the very first Soul Reaver what Kain's Empire looked like ? It was absolutely the product of a despotic tyrant with nothing but the desire for power and domination, I have never seen in videogames a more sound metaphore for the phrase "It is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven".

To me, it's no surprise that the person who would end up ruling the despotic, miserable land we see in SR is precisely the individual we get to know in BO2; the latter is precisely meant to be a depiction of Kain in his young, exacerbated vampiric self, a creature so oblivious to the concepts of humility and selflessnes that his only motivations could not possibly be other than revenge and ambition, but alas, that is not all we see as we also get Umah.

Of course, it is undeniable that the dialogue line you quote, as well as the lack of mention of the state of the pillars and the overall arc of the series being ignored, is indeed rather dissonant with the other games; however, it contains some incredibly interesting character study that you almost never see in fictional vampire characters.


Understandable cynicism and nihilism tempered with some mix of poetic arrogance and humility from BO1 is replaced by rampant megalomania and bravado to the point of high egotism ("they will fear me, do you hear?"). The only philosophical undertone in BO2 asks who is going to be the better tyrant, Kain or the Sarafan Lord, and it's a poor show that I would've felt total sympathy for the Sarafan Lord if it weren't for his messy Device/Mass genocide subplot.

I found those character traits to be inmensely attractive considering what I look for in story-driven videogames, this may be a personal matter, but as I said, the only person who could've logically brought Nosgoth to such level of ruin in SR could only be the person we see in BO2.

And don't you find that interesting at all ? That you're sometimes rooting for the villain ? Even when his desire is the complete anihilation of all life in the fictional setting ? Should we even be rooting for the vampires in LOK ?

I mean, why does a game have to be "bad" simply because it's making you have doubts about the actions and the morality of the main character ? I mean, I love to see that with every new episode of Game Of Thrones.


that isn't an excuse for Kain to become wildly paranoid about everyone and everything around him to the point of catastrophe, wrongfully murdering Umah and suspecting even Vorador of treachery. The enduring implication is that BO2 Kain is an insipid person who inspires no loyalty in anybody but Magnus.

Why is all of that bad ?

I understand that the version from BO1 is "different", but it's not out of the realm of possibility that Kain would become an egotistical, self-centered individual with a king-sized hubris.

I mean, why is it crazy that an ambitious ruler-to-be would murder someone that has betrayed him ? Aside from that, I'm not sure if you're missing the point or not, Kain has realized that his execution of Umah is severely damning, which is why he rationalizes her death by blaming Vorador and later the Sarafan Lord; Kain is obviously trying to escape the reality that he is indeed a cold murderer, he is not indifferent to the consequences that his actions bring forth, and that's something of the likes you're never going to see in many videogames today.


It would have been great to seize the opportunity to elaborate on Kain's madness after he's spent a few hundred years as a vampire, if they had actually made an attempt to do so by acknowledging it in the game.

How do you know they didn't do that precisely ? He is clearly obsessed with revenge on the Sarafan Lord.


SR2 and Defiance explain quite clearly that the execution wasn't actually motivated by some superficial jealousy or villainy: it was entirely rational, and, again, beyond his control, making any need for rationales along the lines of "cowards and traitors deserve no second thoughts, only their complete annihilation" moot.

You're speaking of Elder Kain however, and considering the thousand year gap between both versions of the same character, I find it perfectly reasonable that one might kill an ally as a sentence for betrayal, while the other might do so to test fate itself.


Conversely, marketing for BO2 touted the phrase "play as Kain - the most evil character to ever appear in a video game". I would say that sums it up; it's literally character assassination. The games are "really for two different tastes". Very sorry for writing another essay post, I would not even want to get started on the issues with Vorador or the Hylden Lord because it would then eventually run to three pages.

I can see your point here, but I can't really say to myself that this couldn't just be hot air from the marketing department. Still, it is beyond question that at least a portion of the developers was focused on the idea of selling the game as a way to play as a completely evil character.

However, I don't believe "empathy" is a pre-requisite for a protagonist to be worthy of recognition, I like it when a game, a TV show or a book makes me despise the character's actions, art after all is also about waking up emotions, not just about being nice and servicing to the audience.

Count D
1st Apr 2013, 05:55
I don't think it's a stretch for BO1 Kain to go paranoid. I mean, how many people betrayed him? First Moebius, then Mortanius, then Ariel. All in quick succession. Plus, he learns that all of his life was manipulated from the start, he was kept in the dark about being the Head of the Circle, the de-facto ruler of the land and now he has to die without getting to rule as he should have - I think anyone would go a bit cuckoo after all that. As for the "Curse of vampirism" line contradicting the Dark Gods line... well... now we go into stretch territory: either Kain didn't remember saying that particular line (Amnesia!) or he doesn't equate being a "dark god" with divinity and him saying he is a dark god was more embracing his vampirism, which he still had no reason to see as anything but demonic curse, than genuinely thinking that said vampirism was of divine nature.

diuqSehT
7th Apr 2013, 20:08
the betrayals of BO2 resulted in his complete lack of trust in traditional vampires. this perfectly sets up his need to replace them with vampires he can trust, the necromantics of SR1. So if you're looking for what effect Nupraptor's madness had on Kain, you could say it's responsible for the Vorador-style vampires being killed off. That wouldn't have been "necessary" if not for Kain's singular powermad obsession with empire building. We don't know if he extincted them personally, but it's implied by their absense from the future and his post-BO2 paranoia. (A nice parallel is on the show Supernatural, where Lucifer didn't like the other demons because they weren't really the same species as him--he was an angel and they were just demons he'd created from tortured souls. So, unknown to the demons, part of Lucifer's plan was to get rid of the demons too after the armageddon when he didn't need them anymore.)



RE: the ultimatum. At the time, Kain:
--- had a chip on his shoulder from being deceived (so didn't buy in to Ariel's appeals to do the 'right thing');
--- wanted to live (didn't have a personal history of altruism),
--- had a feeling that something about the ultimatum wasn't right. He couldn't put it into words yet, would only figure everything out centuries later in the chronoplast chamber. So for then it was just an instinct, but a vampiric instinct. He sensed the trap was designed to end the species, and his instinct was to prioritize the life of the species over the lifespan of the pillar construct. Listening to his gut was a good move in the long run--a construct can be rebuilt. Over time, this gut feeling would expand into the philosophy he laid down for Raziel in the SR2 speech.

But in the "short term" (the next 2000 years), the decision turned him into Nosgoth's boogeyman. And he was happy to play that role, starting with the BO2 era...

The lobotomized Kain in BO2 makes sense to me. Don't see it as a problem or a failing of the game. You'd have to be driven like that as an empire builder. He was still in the era of having a big chip on his shoulder and wanted to prove something to the dark forces who'd tried to eliminate him, showing them that the guy they underestimated now owned the world. So he's driven by 3 things: chip on shoulder, a 'normal' human conquerer's desire to take as much power as you can when given the opportunity, and the Nupraptor insanity abnormally fanning the flames of his lust for power until he was totally powermad. In his BO2 character you can see the beginnings of how he'd spend the next 1500 years in denial, bitterly attempting to claim victory over a ruined world where victory was no longer possible (thanks to him). If able to think clearly, he would have dealt differently with Umah at the end perhaps. But instead of being clear-headed, he was dominated by the kind of "clarity" Nupraptor had blessed him with. (His singular focus on world domination is how the insanity manifested in him, perverting his sense of Balance so that he now served Imbalance, just as Dark Eden was the inverse of what a sane Nature Guard would do). Umah ran afoul of that insanity-fueled sense of purpose; she paid the price.

I see the changed BO2 Vorador as an "opportunity." The fun is in answering the question of why he became a lapdog like that. I'm now imagining he got the crap scared out of him by Scion Kain early on. You know, right after he was raised from the grave he got some very real proof (intimidation) presented to him that Kain is the one destined to rule Nosgoth. Seeing the fully evolved Kain would have left little doubt that Kain becomes more powerful than Vorador, and Vorador then quickly figured out that he should cowtow to Young Kain if he knows what's good for him. (Also, I think the changed Vorador can mostly be explained without any of that just by looking at how Vorador's people were beaten down by the Sarafan invasion, so I don't see the lapdog thing as a glaring inconsistency to begin with.)

Count D
6th May 2013, 01:19
My two cents on BO2/Def Vorador. Don't remember if I ever said it, I possibly could have.
Why is Vorador much different? Why is he whiny and mopey in Def and level-headed in BO2, while his original incarnation was a hedonist? Because BO1 version is a pre-William Vorador. His kind prospers, more or less and he can afford himself to be a hedonist. Post-William Vorador of Defiance is all mopey because for all he knows, he is the last. I think he suspects that Kain is special and is not a Blood Curse vamp. And even if he doesn't, still, being one of two last persons of your kind is not a funny thing. After that for him to be cautious and level-headed makes sense. He can't afford to be careless, his kind is in danger.

Now I could've said anything about SR2 Vorador, but it's been a while since the last time I seriously sat down and played SR2.