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TheAgent
8th Jun 2007, 01:12
Well, its a good job i have the Internet, i can tell you, because if i was one of them poor soles that had no net connection, i would of thrown this game out of the window by now.

I was a fan of the very first tomb-raider, i loved the wide open caves and unique game design, when it hit the store in 1997, i had it in my grubby little hands and ran back home to play it.

Then i caught wind of the Anniversary edition. A remake with some extra touches of the original, and i almost wet my self with anticipation.

I got my game and again drove home to play it, it installed and i double clicked that icon on my desktop,

Behold the new but old tomb-raider, sitting there all nice and pretty upon my monitor, the first level was very nostalgic, but then came the T-Rex fight, whats this? its telling me that a rage meter is forming on the critter, but then doesn't say what i have to do? :scratch:, i figure it has something to do with the spiky things, but no matter how hard i try, i cant get it to take much damage?

So i bow down to defeat and minimise the game, and read the instruction manual and head to the forums, and learn about a new move?

Yet this move is so hard to pull off with a keyboard its beyond a joke. but luck is on my side, some how i manage to do this strange mass of button pressing and down came my foe.

Yet i felt let down by the game, yes i had skipped the mansion, after my experience with tomb-raider legend, and loading in the mansion on this one, it looked the same apart from a few extra crates dotted about the place and no swimming pool, i exited out. and carried on my adventure.

Anyway, after finally following Pierre to the temple and getting hold of his desert eagles, i enter a fight with two half horse / half scary looking dead things, that i remembered from the first game, yet this time, i fire and fire and fire till I'm back to my trusty old USP's with infinite ammo, yet haven't managed to dent them?

So i try that silly 10 finger button maneuver yet still it eludes me as to how to put it off....

I mean come on, the first game was so good because it didn't have complications like this, one button on a good timing thing would of been enough, not this button pressing Olympics that they have added.

Then i come on here and read that you are supposed to grapple the shields out of said beasties hands, hoo i grapple alright, yet Lara just stands there, timing with a keyboard is almost non existent, the response time from pressing the grapple button to her actually throwing it, is laughable at best.

So Please Next time you decide to make a remake, can you Please leave out the stupid "use a 15 button press combo to pull off a dodge move" and the "very slow to react grapple" move out of it please, and stick to things that will make the game flow, just like you did 10 years ago.

Other than that, the game is great.

I have to go now, as i have to waist another 10 hours trying to kill these two things.

aussie500
8th Jun 2007, 01:28
It only takes 3 fingers, one on the direction button, one on the shift and one poised on the left mouse ready to shoot. The manual explains it, the game explained it, and you can always try the old standby from the original games, trial and error. If you are still having trouble play with the hints option enabled and it will give you the direction arrows when you can do the move. Do it correctly stand in front of the centaur and grapple the shield.

The first game had you constantly repeating sections because you missed a jump or fell off, or simply could not get where you wanted to go, perhaps not quite as frustrating as this one. But it was still frustrating at times, any good Tomb Raider games needs a bit of frustration l think, to challenge you.

Lo
8th Jun 2007, 01:30
This sounds like a vision of the very same gripe I am likely to offer when (or maybe if now), I get my hands on it. I really am against the unnecessary complications that you have mentioned TheAgent. Well-writted and honest appraisal!

I too use the keyboard and for that reason I still haven't finished Legend although I was starting to make better progress when I last put it down.

I infinitely prefer the original way of controlling Lara. More puzzles, tougher challenges and enemies are one thing but if you can't work the controls for the simple reason that we don't have eight arms then where's the fun? :(

It's supposed to be a game, not an exercise in how to be a contortionist :scratch:

Welcome to the forum incidentally :)

TheAgent
8th Jun 2007, 02:04
It only takes 3 fingers, one on the direction button, one on the shift and one poised on the left mouse ready to shoot. The manual explains it, the game explained it, and you can always try the old standby from the original games, trial and error. If you are still having trouble play with the hints option enabled and it will give you the direction arrows when you can do the move. Do it correctly stand in front of the centaur and grapple the shield.

The first game had you constantly repeating sections because you missed a jump or fell off, or simply could not get where you wanted to go, perhaps not quite as frustrating as this one. But it was still frustrating at times, any good Tomb Raider games needs a bit of frustration l think, to challenge you.

I completed tomb-raider 1 in about a month, the hardest part of tomb-raider one was using the camera to stand still and work out how to get some where.

all i needed for tomb-raider 1 when i first played it back in 1997 was two fingers and two thumbs, now i need 6 fingers and 1 thumb,

I have tried this 3 button mouse / keyboard combination, and if you ask me, its a unnecessary evil, the first game didn't have it, and it worked so well they remade it... and cocked it up.

I have the tool-tips on, yet all i see in the lower right hand corner when I'm supposed to pull this move off, is all the arrows (up, down, left and right) its very off putting as it confuses your brain at a time when its needed. If i needed brain exercise like that, i would go out and get a DS and Doc kawa-somthing-or-other's, brain training.

A one button press would of been enough, not this over complication of 3 buttons just to pull of a dodge move.

And as stated, I've tried to grapple the shields out of their arms, yet the response from me pressing and holding the Q button down to her actually throwing the grapple is way to long,

Eidos should of taken a good long hard look at prince of Persia, the game flowed fluidly, its controls were simple yet effective, the game had its frustrating moments, yet nothing like this.

Personally i would of much rather had the 1997 control system in-place than this. its slow and unresponsive.

I just cant understand how no one at the beta test stage picked up on this?

Infact it makes me wonder who these game testers are?

Thank you Lo for the Forum welcome.

DeathDog
8th Jun 2007, 03:26
I agree, I D/Led it through Steam, and although I have never played TR before, I D/Led the demo of TRA and played it without too much of a problem, once I figured out a couple of movements,,
But this 3 finger move thing SUCKS, I didn't know anything about it, and actually only accidently pulled it off in the first T-Rex cut scene thing, now I will try again to get this damn beast off my butt.. :P

My_2_Cents... :nut:

DeathDog
8th Jun 2007, 03:37
Ok, I am about ready to give up on this, I don't have time to learn this 3 button BS, I hit roll, then left or right, nothing T-rex gets me, I hit left or right, roll and nothing T-rex gets me, this 3 button move is the worst thing I have EVER seen in a game, this game was good up this point, but I am :mad2: really pissed now, as far as I am concerned this was the worse money I have ever spent on a game, because it gets D/Led through Steam, we get no directions, nothing, and I don't have time to read all your **** forums, next time do a better job...

LisaB1962
8th Jun 2007, 04:09
You know, for all reviewers griped about the clunky controls in the old games, I don't understand why this needlessly complex system is here.

Swimming is a nightmare. I never know what to push. And why doesn't Lara swim at top speed all the time? With that tiny lung capacity she's reduced to, you'd think she would! Pressing the triangle button repeatedly is just whack. Same with shimmying. Umm. . .could we have the top speed shimmy at all times too?

Whoever decided we needed to repeatedly press R1 to fire should be sacked. I have plenty of other games to button-mash, thank you very much.

I doubt I will ever execute the rage attack. I couldn't issen worth crap in Onimusha; I avoided RG like the plague in DMC3. I'm no good at timed attacks, but at least I could still play and enjoy those games. I'm severely hoping I'll be able to finish this game without this skill, because I probably can't do it.

tr1xp
8th Jun 2007, 04:56
The glaring flaw in the "special attacks":

While the bad guy who triggered this special attack is taking his sweet time posing, and warming up to rush toward you after the "rage" indicator went off...his 2 friends (who Lara REFUSES to aim at) are crawling all over you, knocking you down over and over so you can't even get up and pull the trigger, let alone wait on the "charge" to do a slow motion head shot.

Heaven forbid you are ever up in the air on a platform (Egypt) and they chain the knockdowns until you fall off the edge and never even had a chance to get up. :mad2:

Bad design. Not clever new gameplay. It is NOT fun relying on random luck to win fights and having no chance whatsoever to even get off the ground, let alone fight for 6 of the 8 attempts some of these encounters take before you get lucky.

LisaB1962
8th Jun 2007, 05:26
I was able to do the rage attacks with the Trex, but he was the only guy out there. Watching the meter made it easy to predict as well.

I do with Lara would turn and face the enemy with her pistols drawn though. It's almost comic to watch her point at nothing when there's a giant man-eating Trex in the area. Almost. ;)

Another extraneous control is pressing X to pull up off a ledge. Why can't up on the analog by itself do it?

Shrensh
8th Jun 2007, 06:08
For me it takes four keys to do the rage attack thing: One held on the combat key to keep Lara's guns on the enemy (she won't do the adrenaline dodge unless her guns are pointed at the enemy), one on the direction I want her to jump in, one on the roll/dodge key to get her to do the dodge, and one on the left mouse button to shoot at the right time. I can do it pretty easily now using the keyboard and mouse, when I can manage not to panic and press the various keys too early.

I've re-mapped the combat key to Shift and roll/crouch key to spacebar, because I find it easier that way.

MercuryRapids
8th Jun 2007, 08:16
I can't do the rage attack/headshot thing at all... :(

My son had to sort out those centaurs for me... maybe it's because I'm an old fart now...lol :)

My biggest gripe with the game is the overuse of the grappling hook/wall run thing. Most of the time, it doesn't work and she either falls and you have to start again, or she falls and loses some health, or she falls to her death.

At least with the original, when you knew how to do a particular part of the game, that was it, you could do it. With the new one, there's too much doubt in what Lara will do (or not do) when you press a button.

edit:

p.s.

The first half of the game is brilliant - the second half, well, isn't...

Leak
8th Jun 2007, 09:03
One held on the combat key to keep Lara's guns on the enemy
That's what the "Advanced toggle" combat mode is there for - you don't need to hold the combat key/button down, just press it once to toggle combat on/off...

And, for the record, pulling the adrenalin dodge off against a single enemy is a piece of cake with a joypad - I can see how it could be awkward with a keyboard, although using the left thumb to hold down space and another finger to hit W/S/A/D seems pretty easy to me... it's not as if you had to hit 3 keys at the same time, which most keyboards probably would have a problem with (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_jamming[/url)...

np: AmmonContact - BBQ Plate (Telefon Tel Aviv Late Supper Remix) (Telefon Tel Aviv Remixes Compiled)

gopher666
8th Jun 2007, 09:37
Honestly you guys will complain before you even try. I found it really easy to pull off the adrenline move. Granted that when there is more than one enemy its difficult because the others are knocking you down but that is the point. In areas like that I used the shotgun to hold them at bay

TheAgent
8th Jun 2007, 10:16
Honestly you guys will complain before you even try. I found it really easy to pull off the adrenline move. Granted that when there is more than one enemy its difficult because the others are knocking you down but that is the point. In areas like that I used the shotgun to hold them at bay

What do you mean, that is the point?

Excuse me mate, I'm not one of these "I want it this easy blah blah blah" people, i was brought up in the days of gaming frustration, back when it took 30 Min's to load a game from cassette tape, only for it to crash on the first level.

In this day and age when its all about money and enjoyment, i don't want to be giving someone money and NOT enjoying my self.

I managed to get past them centaurs last night after dieing countless times, its not fun and was very frustrating, and really made me lose that tomb-raider feel

Its not the move that is the problem, its the way you have to execute said move that is the let down,

Games developers never seem to get it, i would much rather play a game that is fluid in motion, with actions that are clear and precise, and progress within the story, not play for a good amount of time only to run into a part of the game that ruin's the whole experience, just because a developer thinks its a good idea to introduce some fancy 15 button, maneuver.

TR1 was never about killing things, it was about exploring, with a few combat elements thrown in to distract you every now and then, Now Eidos seem to think its about frustrating the crap out of you with awkward controls, pointlessly hard boss fights and breaking it up with some even more frustrating grappling moments

I'm in the temple of kamoon now, and i have to say, I've given up on trying to dodge enemy's, its just not worth it, i take the same amount of damage by just standing there firing my pistols than what i do if i try and dodge an un-dodgable attack with a camera that doesn't know what its doing.

I also would like to know who came up with the control system, as they obviously didn't play test it enough, trying to jump off of the grapple is like a lottery, you never what button to press, Lara now feels like some amature rather than a professional tomb-raider, when i want to jump strait off of the wall, its a case of trail and error until i magically hit the left button and realise that I've done that about 14 times already, yet this time it decided to work? and I'm off in the right direction.

If you think the game controls are OK, than that's fine by me, but i suggest you go play the original Tomb-raider, to see how a pro control system works.

In the first game you died because YOU made a mistake, not because of bad controls / dodgy camera angles and frustrating moves...

gopher666
8th Jun 2007, 11:24
My point is that if you know that a rage attack is coming you need to prepare for it and that may mean getting enough space. If you have happened to have trapped yourself in a corner when the rage comes then that is YOUR fault for not being aware of your surroundings.

I have played the original games and those movements were sluggish at best and reesulted in a clear distinction between the way tomb raider was played on a PC rather than a PS. The console controls were easier and allowed for a much faster response from the game. The PC controls on the other hand were a handful with the buttons not being together - and next to impossible when playing on a laptop with no numpad.

You cant say the camera angles are dodgy because YOU are in control of the camera. In regards to the wall jump just shift the camera so you face the wall so that jumping away from the wall is definately down. Furthermore, I recall in some of the older games where they tried to play with the camera by having it fixed in one corner of a room for a more grand effect but it just ended up messing the controls.

When Lara died in the original games from a jump it wasn't because I made a mistake but because I wasnt MILLIMETRE perfect in its execution. The new control system is perfect in the way it is set up and the grapple is a lot better than it was in legend because you don't have to put your guns away first (centaurs with shields compared to Water Dragon)

And it aint a 15 button bash, its four at the most and you tend to have at least one fingure over that button when you fight all the time anyway so I dont see why you aint getting this.

TheAgent
8th Jun 2007, 12:07
My point is that if you know that a rage attack is coming you need to prepare for it and that may mean getting enough space.

If the rage attack wasn't put in the game it would of been a lot better, the original didn't have it, and worked just fine, so why add something that is absolutely pointless? it doesn't help you understand Lara anymore than the summersult move she does after jumping and flipping. and it does not add to the story or feel of the game.

Then to make matters worse they complicate it by making it a 3 to 4 button mouse / keyboard combination that is absolutely hurrendous to pull off in-between constantly getting up off your arse.

If you have happened to have trapped yourself in a corner when the rage comes then that is YOUR fault for not being aware of your surroundings.

No, its because the camera zooms so far up Lara's arse that you can not see were your going, or Lara decides shes not even going continue aiming at the thing your trying to shoot and is now facing the wrong way and you had nothing to do with it? then the enemy come towards you fast that its hard to actually get out of the way in a small tight corridor, strange that, when i know my surrounds are 2 walls a floor and a ceiling.

I have played the original games and those movements were sluggish at best and resulted in a clear distinction between the way tomb raider was played on a PC rather than a PS. The console controls were easier and allowed for a much faster response from the game. The PC controls on the other hand were a handful with the buttons not being together - and next to impossible when playing on a laptop with no numpad.

Strange, i never had your problem in the first game, on PS or PC, TR1 was a lot slower, aligning Lara for that jump then jumping, nothing sluggish about it, just fiddly

You cant say the camera angles are dodgy because YOU are in control of the camera. In regards to the wall jump just shift the camera so you face the wall so that jumping away from the wall is definitely down. Furthermore, I recall in some of the older games where they tried to play with the camera by having it fixed in one corner of a room for a more grand effect but it just ended up messing the controls.

I'm in control of the camera about 86% of the time, the rest is when the computer points the camera at something it thinks is interesting, if you don't believe me, try the sword room again in st. Frances folly just before the Midas room and watch the camera swing upward so you can see the big swords hanging from the ceiling there are other places in the game it does this too, and when in a fight with something, is not very helpful at all.

When Lara died in the original games from a jump it wasn't because I made a mistake but because I wasn't MILLIMETRE perfect in its execution. The new control system is perfect in the way it is set up and the grapple is a lot better than it was in legend because you don't have to put your guns away first (centaurs with shields compared to Water Dragon)

Nope never had the MILLIMETER perfect situation in the first, she always jumped in the direction you wanted her to jump. it was as simple as that. The grapple is a different kettle of fish, sometimes it works some times it doesn't. as for the camera again, are you even playing the same game as me? the camara has a mind of its own when your on a grapple, and when you try sorting it out mid swing, its like its refusing to listen to what your trying to tell it.

And it aint a 15 button bash, its four at the most and you tend to have at least one fingure over that button when you fight all the time anyway so I dont see why you aint getting this.

15 button bash, take it you don't know what the word exaggeration (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exaggeration) is then?


Its a cumbersome move that is not needed or wanted.

So you have mastered it, good on you, well done, here have a cookie (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Chocolate-Chip-Cookies-I/Detail.aspx)

chris and chan
8th Jun 2007, 12:15
Agree with all that's written. I stated in another post that the only way to enjoy the game is to download a trainer and activate one hit kills and unlimited breath, as both of these are a complete nightmare, no matter what control system you use, way too over complex and too annoying to be considered fun - just a shame I have to activate 'cheats' to enjoy the game to the full.

NaughtyGirl
8th Jun 2007, 12:37
those cookies look good :rasp:

Xcom
8th Jun 2007, 12:53
Ok, I am about ready to give up on this, I don't have time to learn this 3 button BS, I hit roll, then left or right, nothing T-rex gets me, I hit left or right, roll and nothing T-rex gets me


The adrenaline dodge is no different from normal roll/dodge move. You can practice it in non-combat (but with guns drawn).

The way I do it: press and hold direction key, tap SHIFT(crouch) key. Release all.

Pressing SHIFT first will most likely make Lara crouch and holster weapons.
Pressing SHIFT+direction simultaneously doesn't always work for me either.