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skribb
6th Jun 2007, 15:45
In April 2005, a new Tomb Raider game was announced. Fans around the world rejoiced. During that same period, promotional images of Lara's "new look" were released to the public. The British aristocrat had been given an increased polycount, a fluid set of animations and crisp, high-resolution textures. Even her ample bust was reduced a few notches. It was a true-to-the-original reboot of the most popular female protagonist of all time, and this treasure hunting vixen looked better and sexier than ever before.

But something was amiss. There was something about her that unstabilised the harmony of Lara's fertile figure - her knees! They were deemed terribly narrow and impractical, and fans on message boards were comparing them to giraffe legs, linebacker legs, and yes... some comparisons were made with the arms of cartoon character Popeye! Serving as a bottleneck to her realism, Lara's disfigured limbs destroyed the image of an aesthetically flawless woman.

Now, two years and two games later, Ms. Croft has received yet another visual update (if very slight), but her legs were left untouched. Naturally, this has led many to believe that this particular choice of design was "needed" in constructing the animations for Lara and her leggy acrobatics. A plausible explanation, but still as bewildering as ever, seeing as other developers avoided cutting back on the same kind of realism for their games - titles like BloodRayne and Prince of Persia.

The fact still stands: Lara Croft's legs must be fixed for the next iteration of Tomb Raider! Please, take this into account while you work on Legend II. You might not be able to fully reconstruct her legs - animations and skeletons in mind - but there is something called "meeting halfway", which is still better than how our beloved leading lady looks now! I would also highly recommend releasing patches for both Legend and Anniversary to rid this nuisance once and for all, at least on the PC side of things. If you really want to make amends, I find it hard to believe this would take more than a day in man-hours.


http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/6803/laralegfixhc0.jpg

Is there anyone who agrees with me?

Moderators (and other Eidos/CD employees who happen to read this), please forward this to anyone higher than yourselves in the company hierarchy. Especially Keir, you've been working there for like 8 years right? I'm sure you've got a few tricks up your sleeve. If Irrational Games' community moderator can persuade their company to release a Collector's Edition of BioShock then I don't doubt your ability to affect Eidos or Crystal Dynamics in equal proportions.

CatSuit&Ponytail
6th Jun 2007, 15:53
Actually, I do not agree with your opinion. Lara's knees are shaped like hourglasses and not like sticks because she in an athlete with finely pronounced leg muscles, not a model who just stands around. Her calves should be accentuated, not non-existent. The girl in your picture, as nice as she may be, does not have the body of an athlete at all. Sorry, I do not think that Lara's legs should taper down to nothing from her thighs like that.

http://www.catagar.com/treasure/AthleticLegs01.jpg

Lara Croft Wanna Be
6th Jun 2007, 16:17
lara is a major athlete - be happy they didnt give her honkin muscular arms : )

strong yet still has her feminism :)

skribb
6th Jun 2007, 16:18
A fine point, but then again, since when did athlete's have 56JJ breasts and a curvy hourglass body? No, she'd have washboard abs and a flat chest. The emphasis here was on beauty, if I remember correctly...


1. A gymnast
2. Anna Kournikova - quite the athlete
3. a pro cheerleader
4. Serena Williams - if AK wasn't enough proof
http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/0c5/9488070607gymnast.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318458&photo=1) http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/0c5/390070607kournikova.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318458&photo=2) http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/0c5/365070607pro_cheerleader.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318458&photo=3) http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/0c5/126070607serena.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318458&photo=4)

There's your athlete :rasp:

LisaB1962
6th Jun 2007, 16:48
Well, I like the legs. I mean, "reality" doesn't stop them from giving Lara an eighteen inch waist, something that hasn't been seen since the days of Scarlett O'Hara and the whalebone corset.

Headache
6th Jun 2007, 16:49
I thoroughly disagree.
Her legs are fine as they are, and like Cat said, shouldn't taper down into flimsy looking sticks IMO. Lara does a hell of a lot more than those athletes you've listed.

rsdigi
6th Jun 2007, 17:39
she's a very athletic girl, and has very built calves. The developers have always stated that she is not based on an actual women, but a caricture of a woman.

TR4ever
6th Jun 2007, 18:12
Well, i also think Lara┬┤s knees are a little bit strange but my opinion is not going to change anything so hell to it.

DMC
6th Jun 2007, 18:28
Please don't get offended,but I think nobody cares.Lara's legs are fine,and this is just nitpicking.

Zoidberg
6th Jun 2007, 18:48
A rule of good character design is that you should be able to instantly recognise a given character from their silhouette alone.

Lara's knees were also this hourglass shape in the orginal games and when Lara is viewed from behind, they instantly establish her recognisable outline. To change this quirk would be like removing her trademark ponytail and other exaggerated proportions.

Rai
6th Jun 2007, 19:16
Lara has very womanly, shapely yet athletic looking calves. The legs you've given her look strange. Womanly athletic thighs with boyish stick-like calves. I should know, my son's calves look like that (only better). That's fine for a fourteen your old but definitely not Lara who's toned legs suit her fine thank you very much.

And for reference, not all athletes have small breasts, they just use very good supportive sports bras.

Xcom
6th Jun 2007, 19:44
Is there anyone who agrees with me?


No.

Alexlovesguns
6th Jun 2007, 20:00
That "how it should look" pic is terrible, worst legs i ever saw :eek:.

I can agree that her legs are too Popeye alike but Lara model is far from perfect/realistic.

Bampire
6th Jun 2007, 20:12
I personally don't care, because it's just a game.. Unless there's flaws like placing leather wings onto the shoulder blades, then there's a problem.. Because wings cannot support a body by just being placed straight onto the bone... But this topic isn't about the flaws of Natlas Wings..

But yeah, Lara's legs fit her, because she uses her legs so much more, and also not always the knees are level with the rest of the body. It's like saying her fingers have to have bulky muscles, like banana fingers or something.

i_am2young4this
6th Jun 2007, 20:31
[QUOTE=skribb;655057]
Is there anyone who agrees with me?


No.Disfigured limbs?That girl in your pic had disfigured limbs...

Special_K
6th Jun 2007, 20:33
if anything, Lara needs more thigh



hmmmMMMMmmmmMMMmmmmmm thigh =D

i_am2young4this
6th Jun 2007, 20:34
That "how it should look" pic is terrible, worst legs i ever saw :eek:.

I can agree that her legs are too Popeye alike but Lara model is far from perfect/realistic.

If you would work out and use your legs as much Lara does your legs would be Popeye too...
But i agree with you that those legs in "how it should look" pic are horrible!!!

Alexlovesguns
7th Jun 2007, 08:53
If you would work out and use your legs as much Lara does your legs would be Popeye too...
But i agree with you that those legs in "how it should look" pic are horrible!!!


They look like popeye because the knees are too skinny, what i didnt like about the "how they should be" pic is that he skinnied the lower leg to bone only :eek: .

edit:

I have no idea why im discussing this...

Notts Raider
7th Jun 2007, 09:22
Well, I like the legs. I mean, "reality" doesn't stop them from giving Lara an eighteen inch waist, something that hasn't been seen since the days of Scarlett O'Hara and the whalebone corset.

Or Paula Yates in the 90's

skribb
7th Jun 2007, 10:26
Christ, it's not like my "design" is universal law. Also, meeting halfway? Yeah, that goes for everything in this world.

I made her legs "horrible" (extra thin) so that, if they for example decided to listen to me (let's just imagine they did), they would taper them enough, but not like in the picture (don't ask me why, I just know that's how people work). So if I did it "normally" they'd adjust them even less.

I am not a Tomb Raider fan (not in your eyes anyway), because I haven't played any Core games. The only ones who actullay agree with me are non-fans (or rather, less rabid/devoted fans). So what's up with Lara fanbase?

Anyway I am not wasting my energy on you people.

aussie500
7th Jun 2007, 10:31
Lara's knees look just fine to me, not everyone has the same shaped knees, but those are normal and they are the ones Lara has always had.

It has nothing to do with being a rabid fan, why should the developers change Lara's knees just because you who admits having not played the old games so know nothing of what they should look like decide you do not like her shape. Tough that is the shape they are.

CatSuit&Ponytail
7th Jun 2007, 10:34
The design of this particular character is very important. She has to look within certain established guidelines. She is an icon. A recognizable fictional character. She is meant to be recognizable even if she is just a silhouette.

Do not take it personally that people like her to be the unique and lovely shape she is.

skribb
7th Jun 2007, 11:08
Lara's knees look just fine to me, not everyone has the same shaped knees, but those are normal and they are the ones Lara has always had.

It has nothing to do with being a rabid fan, why should the developers change Lara's knees just because you who admits having not played the old games so know nothing of what they should look like decide you do not like her shape. Tough that is the shape they are.

I'M the one who knows nothing? Well, okay then.

http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/8ce/2606070607AOD_render.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318471&photo=1) http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/8ce/4119070607bev_francis.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318471&photo=2) http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/8ce/210070607jolie.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318471&photo=4) http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/8ce/7220070607karima.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318471&photo=5) http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/8ce/6329070607lara_render.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318471&photo=6) http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/8ce/3437070607muscular_asian.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318471&photo=8) http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/8ce/4482070607tr1_figurine.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318471&photo=9) http://www.imagebeaver.com/files4/t/8ce/3590070607uk_lara.jpg (http://www.imagebeaver.com/view.php?mode=gallery&g=318471&photo=10)

Notts Raider
7th Jun 2007, 11:16
Women don't need to be an athlete to have well defined calf muscles. Has no one ever noticed on a sunny day when walking down a street, how many shapely calf muscles some women have.

Tomb Radar
7th Jun 2007, 11:24
Lara is designed to be exaggerated, or something like that. I'd prefer it if she looked more "real".

Change the knees as skribb said
Make here waist a bit wider
Make her boobs a bit smaller
Make her arms a bit bigger

GeorgeMaciver
7th Jun 2007, 11:38
This is silly :rolleyes:

aussie500
7th Jun 2007, 11:53
I'M the one who knows nothing? Well, okay then.


l never said you knew nothing, but you are not in a position to tell us how our Lara should look, she is not designed to look like the girl next door, she is Lara unique, she might have changed over the years but her basic characteristics and shape are still there. l have seen women with knees and legs like that so it is not abnormal. They are Lara's legs and that is the way they stay, you do not like them fine, do not look at them.

CatSuit&Ponytail
7th Jun 2007, 12:02
Lara is designed to be exaggerated, or something like that. I'd prefer it if she looked more "real".

Change the knees as skribb said
Make here waist a bit wider
Make her boobs a bit smaller
Make her arms a bit bigger

Yes, by all means let's make her average and pale like the mean.

Some real women actually do have bodies that look like hers, you know, without surgery. Commonly known as "hourglass" figures, shapely legs, curvy hips, tiny waist, ample bosom! What's wrong with that? Just because I don't personally know any human skeletons or blimps does not mean they don't exist. Just because you don't know any woman who has a natural figure like Lara Croft doesn't mean they don't exist.

Oh, because we are being told big bosoms are only available from a surgeon, and tiny waists mean anorexia, and shapely legs are disproportionate.

Leave Lara as she is, that is what she looks like; to be forever altering our icons to look more like a boring run of the mill average "normal" person, so that we feel better about being average, is insulting.

skribb
7th Jun 2007, 12:20
l never said you knew nothing
"you who admits having not played the old games so know nothing of what they should look like."
I rest my case?


but you are not in a position to tell us how our Lara should look,
To be precise, I have played the demo of Tomb Raider 2 when it came out, I also watched as my cousin showed me Tomb Raider 2/3 on his Playstation. Not that that gives me any authoritative position... :confused:


l have seen women with knees and legs like that so it is not abnormal.
It's good to know they're not abnormal at least. I've never seen such legs/knees anyhow.



They are Lara's legs and that is the way they stay, you do not like them fine, do not look at them.
How should I define this; rabid fanboyism or territorial pissing? While you make a good point (about me not having to look at them, which equals not playing the game), I as a consumer have the right to speak my mind and let my voice be heard. Besides, ever heard the phrase "people change"?

Martin C
7th Jun 2007, 12:48
Oh grow up. This is the main thing that really annoys me about gamers these days. Moaning about minor things and graphics instead of actually criticising what should ultimately be the main focus of the game, gameplay.

Martin C x

skribb
7th Jun 2007, 12:57
Oh grow up. This is the main thing that really annoys me about gamers these days. Moaning about minor things and graphics instead of actually criticising what should ultimately be the main focus of the game, gameplay.

Martin C x

I am not a graphics whore, trust me - this is not about "graphics" as a computer games term. Aesthetics is a more apt label. Please, I have games from the early nineties installed on my PC!:rolleyes:

Martin C
7th Jun 2007, 13:07
Yes that was the term I was looking for, and since you've mentioned you have been a gamer from the early nineties, what's the point of complaining about something as trivial as Lara's knees? I started my gaming at the end of the eighties back when I got my first console as such, it was a commodore 64. Back then as you may well have gathered games had very basic graphics, and we had to use more imagination to fill in the blanks, and obviously had to focus on gameplay.

I just get the feeling that aesthetics and graphics are the main concerns of gamers now, when it's kinda silly considering games should always focus on gameplay first and foremost, then concentrate on the other aspects.

Martin C x

CommanderZx2
7th Jun 2007, 14:04
Why would you want to make lara look completely normal. If you did that she'd become boring.

Atheist
7th Jun 2007, 14:26
Lara was designed, meant to be and always has been an, "exaggerated picture of the female form".

If she was real, her musels would be massive. Her back would have broken under the weight of her boobs. She could'nt possibly hang on to for so long, or pull her self up a ledge like we've seen her do so many times. To add to all this, she'd proberly be disease ridden and completely mad from all things she's done and seen.

But wait - thats right...she's not real. She's a computer game. She's a bunch of pixels. Can we please stop nit-picking now?

skribb
7th Jun 2007, 15:00
Lara was designed, meant to be and always has been an, "exaggerated picture of the female form".

If she was real, her musels would be massive. Her back would have broken under the weight of her boobs. She could'nt possibly hang on to for so long, or pull her self up a ledge like we've seen her do so many times. To add to all this, she'd proberly be disease ridden and completely mad from all things she's done and seen.

But wait - thats right...she's not real. She's a computer game. She's a bunch of pixels. Can we please stop nit-picking now?

When you put it like that: yes. However... yes, of course I am being "picky". There are other, far more important aspects to complain about, like gameplay as Martin so passionately advocates (I can't say he's wrong). But you have to differentiate between unrealistic/weird things that seem or look weird, and things that seem appropriate considering the medium (in this case, a video game). It'll take too much time to go into detail and explain minutely, so I'll just leave it at that.

You guys don't seem too susceptible to my rantings so I should probably take off to greener pastures ;)

Headache
8th Jun 2007, 17:06
Anyway I am not wasting my energy on you people.
Uhhh.... Yeah.
I can see that...

i_am2young4this
8th Jun 2007, 21:31
Lara is perfect the way she is!!Leave her alone and please leave us alone!!
Thank you!!:rasp:

skribb
9th Jun 2007, 14:45
Mods, just remove this debacle of a discussion. I may have slightly mistargeted my demographic...

Delete thread please :)

rabid metro
9th Jun 2007, 19:08
hmmm, i was under the impression that if the OP deleted the OP then the entire thread would disappear.

skribb, try it ... :cool:

quote/reply your original message and instead of saving, choose delete.
you'll have to hit a couple of delete buttons ...

umm, don't thank me ... seriously ...


They say that a wasted fortune is like a lost opportunity.

Leak
9th Jun 2007, 19:16
quote/reply your original message and instead of saving, choose delete.
Ummm... that would be "Edit your original message" - Quote/Reply producse a new post, after all...

np: Robert Babicz - Milo's Groove (A Cheerful Temper)