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View Full Version : ABILITIES Leap Attack (Modified pounce for reaver)



Strike5150
5th Nov 2013, 19:05
I tested this today, it was really fantastic in terms of movement and speed of attack. However it is not doing the damage it needs to I think. It has the same damage range or very similar to the normal pounce, thing is there is no incapacitate and no slashing. So it seems to only do 275 damage not 275 - 480. This is needless to say kind of bad. I basically had to stop using it because i would jump in, do minimal dmg with no stun, so I wasn't able to do much of anything.

With the normal pounce you can actually carry your target away form the others, you get a stun AND you do most times if planned correctly 500+ damage.

Leap attack you get small damage not sure what it is, no stun, no ability to single your opponent out AND you don't get a targeter anymore. You do however get some mobility so that is really nice, I also think its powerful given some more practice, but overall the skill just can't keep up with the regular pounce.

Maybe we could add that it can still carry your target but they get up right away and it does maybe 300 damage. So still low but not 200 something and it gets a little more utility by allowing you to carry the target a bit.

Balantin
6th Nov 2013, 12:04
I was in 1 of the matches you were using it on, and from being on the receiving side i gotta say it was a pretty annoying skill.
Because you could run at full speed while crouching, it made you a bit harder to hit, and when you pounced on someone, it staggered them and did alot of damage.
Imo it seems to be a good hit and run skill, me and Xaragoth will probably be trying out hunter/reaver next week so im gonna give this ability a go then.

hirukaru
6th Nov 2013, 12:39
But it seems a good skill, it will be tested and Balatin and Xaragoth will make a nice report out of the game time.
Hope I can join them in the testing rounds again.

Remember that every skill has it strenghts and weakness.
This skill might be good at a fast charge run away and let your friends do the rest.

Or a team of reavers and charge after each other and kill people that way.

Strike5150
6th Nov 2013, 13:14
@Balantin
It's interesting to hear your point of view on my using it. I definitely think it didn't do enough dmg, it like it was 200 maybe alittle more but not much. I also noticed there is a discrepancy in the descriptions which would lead me to believe its probably doing the lower bound on the damage, which is the minimum a pounce can do if its cancelled immediately. That also fits my observations.


@hirukaru
What I am also saying is that the weakness of the skill far outweighs its strength. Compared to the other pounce its much weaker.

Just to be clear ONE melee strike does as much if not more damage than this pounce. A melee hit weighs in at 275 damage, you do this damage also at regular movement speed. Basically that means you are looking at a glorified jump, which I would gather is not really the point of a skill. Since we only have 3 total and each is unique in its function and powerful in its own right.

hirukaru
6th Nov 2013, 13:33
@strike i never used the skill and cause of that i cannot judge, i will certainly buy it to check of out.
In my own opinion some skills are very strong, not of the damage but because the posibities.

Psyonix_Corey
6th Nov 2013, 15:26
Just to be clear ONE melee strike does as much if not more damage than this pounce. A melee hit weighs in at 275 damage, you do this damage also at regular movement speed. Basically that means you are looking at a glorified jump, which I would gather is not really the point of a skill. Since we only have 3 total and each is unique in its function and powerful in its own right.

Two things -

First, Its damage scales up with range, so if you trigger it from further away it will do more damage.

Second, it's a gap closer, much like other Vampire primary abilities (Pounce, Charge, etc.). It can get you in melee range, and unlike regular Pounce you can run around at full speed with it charged up. We tried having it knock players down in internal testing and found it overpowered, even when it didn't do any damage over time like Pounce, because as a human it's incredibly frustrating to get knocked down from medium/long range by an instant attack.

That said, we did have intermittent internal feedback similar to yours about being frustrated with the payoff of the skill (strike enemy, bounce backwards, done) so perhaps we can improve that in some other way without incapacitating the human.

We'll keep an eye on the damage for sure though, if it's seeming too weak over time we'll buff it.

Strike5150
7th Nov 2013, 08:09
Thanks Corey, that was very informative. I will test the skill some more based on your feedback.

Now that I know damage scales with range I understand the damage numbers better so I can adjust my playstyle and test it from a new perspective. I didn't make sure I had a long range when I pounced in fact I was definitely playing very close up and personal because of what I assumed were the strengths of the skill. Updating the tooltip to explain the mechanic would help.

Scaling the skill based on range is a little bit counter intuitive when you consider that it is really a skill that seems tailored towards making you more dangerous up close. Faster on the ground and instant pounce kind of mean in your face :).

Does this mean that the regular reaver pounce is also scaled by distance?

@hirukaru

If you don't believe me thats fine, but I'm taking the time to write in the forum. When I make a post about a skill I feel is underpowered you don't need to tell me that other testers are going to test it and I should refrain from posting about it. Maybe this wasn't your intention but it certainly came across that way.

The skill did feel underpowered and Psyonix admitted as much that internally they also felt frustrated about the payoff in some cases(which is exactly how I felt).

Balantin
7th Nov 2013, 09:05
Hope I didn't make it sound like that as well Strike, I think its very good that you are reporting your issues with the game and I wish more people would do it.
Hearing other peoples opinions on abilities is very helpful because not everyone plays the game the same way.

@Corey
I had no idea damage scaled with range... Reaver just got a whole lot more interesting :)
It would be nice to get more detailed information on all the abilities in the game though.

Xaragoth
7th Nov 2013, 09:39
@Corey: That kind of info should be in the tooltip. I think Leap works similar, doesn't it? Or at least it has impact damage-falloff in the radius.

I feel hirukaru is getting a bit overexcited about testing here. Personally I find the different perspective always interesting and read all feedback to get a different perspective on the game as well. Just because we test things and write our own opinions and evaluate them, doesn't mean that's the holy grail of it. It's a perspective after all. You use them in your calculations and decisions, but in the end, it's not the entire means to an end.

Generally speaking we'll probably need to do something else going forward from the last two classes and both Balantin and I feel the right choice would be to get 8 people that can express their opinions on a skill well and make a tester group outside of Psyonix QA team. More of a casual, player-view oriented group. Then again I'd gladly welcome any interested Developers/QA/CM/PeoplewhomakeNosgoth to such a round - even if it's just one person. Because we kinda also could really use the studio perspective. Bring a thick hide though, we tend to yell everything is op and broken when we die :P


Personally I'll hold off on giving my opinion on this particular skill until I actually gave it a spin - which is at the current speed probably next week.

hirukaru
7th Nov 2013, 10:22
Thanks Corey, that was very informative. I will test the skill some more based on your feedback.

Now that I know damage scales with range I understand the damage numbers better so I can adjust my playstyle and test it from a new perspective. I didn't make sure I had a long range when I pounced in fact I was definitely playing very close up and personal because of what I assumed were the strengths of the skill. Updating the tooltip to explain the mechanic would help.

Scaling the skill based on range is a little bit counter intuitive when you consider that it is really a skill that seems tailored towards making you more dangerous up close. Faster on the ground and instant pounce kind of mean in your face :).

Does this mean that the regular reaver pounce is also scaled by distance?

@hirukaru

If you don't believe me thats fine, but I'm taking the time to write in the forum. When I make a post about a skill I feel is underpowered you don't need to tell me that other testers are going to test it and I should refrain from posting about it. Maybe this wasn't your intention but it certainly came across that way.

The skill did feel underpowered and Psyonix admitted as much that internally they also felt frustrated about the payoff in some cases(which is exactly how I felt).

@strike my comment wasnt to offend you. It is good that you post it, i was only trying to say that because of you i atleast will try out this skill

hirukaru
7th Nov 2013, 10:28
@xaragoth it also was not ment as a comment to say that your logs are a holy grail or any of that. I might written it wrong. I was just trying to say That as your friend said this skill will now be checked out for sure. I am indeed sorry for the badly written reply.

(Reply send by Phone)

Psyonix_Corey
7th Nov 2013, 17:29
All Pounce skills (Pounce, Savage Pounce, Leap) scale damage up with distance to give it a "skill shot" aspect from long range.

Fair point that the tooltip could communicate why the damage has a range.

Syst3mzero
8th Nov 2013, 02:31
The one issue I had with pounce is one that made me question if my Reaver was all there in the head,
I jumped a great distance and attacked an enemy who is good in ranged attacks but not so good at close up, I beat him half to death then I jump back so far that I can no longer reach him and I put him at enough distance that he can now take back his ranged advantage.... it just seems counter intuitive to leap so far back. I could understand him getting kicked off by the downed player, that would make more sense and that animation would make full sense to me but voluntarily throwing away your advantage like that it is just insane (imagine in real life being in a lions cage with him, slapping the lion across the face then turning your back to him and whistling a merry tune).
Like I say humans should kick off the vampire but the distance you are thrown back should be less as humans wouldn't be able to push them that far (maybe a few stumbled steps.
Now I know that this sounds like it would break game play but I think It would reinforce the team play aspect for humans plus bolas are a good counter for taking the power back off the Reaver once he is pushed back.

Just a suggestion, I'm not going to complain too much since I still enjoyed the game :)

Strike5150
9th Nov 2013, 15:11
Hehe I have to agree with you there System, I really dislike the jumpback distance as well. I have started to do a roll after I jump back to avoid the daggers and get back in range.

In a way its actually helping you, the daggers thrown by the scout will be a guaranteed hit if your too close and will do significantly more damage if all three daggers hit. So mbe we could randomize the direction a little (or allow the player to choose by holding a direction) and halving the distance.

Xaragoth
9th Nov 2013, 19:46
The jumpback is mostly for balance reasons to give a human a fighting chance.

Also it makes you jump into my Fire Wall :P