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View Full Version : Dumahim - Multi-Talanted?



Vampmaster
21st Oct 2013, 12:48
I've seen a lot of people saying about how the Dumahim have been made into sneaky scouts and assassins, when they were always depicted as the tough expert warriors. However the only thing that seems to suggest this is the couple of sentences in the lore page where it says:


The Reavers of Clan Dumahim are dexterous and stealthy predators, whose only focus is the subjugation of Humankind. As trained and talented killers, Reavers are both calculated and poised. Swift, silent and smart, these Vampires are natural hunters who can out-think and out-run the opposition.

I'm *not* in favour of switching the character modes with the Turelim as some people have suggested. The Turelim were always the strongest, but not the best with technique.

As an alternative to that, perhaps the stealth aspect could be played down a bit in future lore pages and the stealthier abilities could be swapped out *through customisation* for more physical abilities.

One thing I'd like to see, which would also make them look a bit more like in SR1, would be their oversized boots and gauntlets. When equipped, they would slow you down a bit and perhaps stop you from doing the pounce move, but in exchange for that, you get increased strength and a different special move.

What you you guys think?

TendrilSavant
21st Oct 2013, 16:45
I'm actually beginning to think that Dumahim only look like a stealth based class when placed next to the hulking Turelim. As the third raised, maybe the right think to do is view the Dumahim as the standard class. Average speed, power and defense, at least in comparison to other vampires.

As vampires, all the classes should possess some elements of stealth; not necessarily in gameplay, but at least in aesthetics. Maybe their aesthetic choice will make more sense once we see the other clans, especially if the Zephonim are lankier.

TenebraeAeterna
21st Oct 2013, 17:31
As vampires, all the classes should possess some elements of stealth; not necessarily in gameplay, but at least in aesthetics. Maybe their aesthetic choice will make more sense once we see the other clans, especially if the Zephonim are lankier.

I'm ravenous to see the Zephonim implemented.

TendrilSavant
21st Oct 2013, 21:09
We'll probably get the Zephonim before the Rahabim or Melchim since those pose harder lore adaptations. The Rahabim are my favorite which is a shame because they'll probably be the hardest to adapt.

TenebraeAeterna
21st Oct 2013, 21:19
We'll probably get the Zephonim before the Rahabim or Melchim since those pose harder lore adaptations. The Rahabim are my favorite which is a shame because they'll probably be the hardest to adapt.

I still think that the Melchim could provide a ambush oriented horde class and work. The Zephonim are far easier to incorporate though, and much more desired by me!

lordbane2110
24th Oct 2013, 17:27
I don't know with there increased resilience to water, rahabim could be like crocs, lurking under water ready to leap out and grab you

plus they could adapt that spit weapon they used in SR1 to be more like Toad from xmen, like a glue that roots you in place

ZeroFernir
26th Oct 2013, 01:11
I've seen a lot of people saying about how the Dumahim have been made into sneaky scouts and assassins, when they were always depicted as the tough expert warriors. However the only thing that seems to suggest this is the couple of sentences in the lore page where it says:



I'm *not* in favour of switching the character modes with the Turelim as some people have suggested. The Turelim were always the strongest, but not the best with technique.

As an alternative to that, perhaps the stealth aspect could be played down a bit in future lore pages and the stealthier abilities could be swapped out *through customisation* for more physical abilities.

One thing I'd like to see, which would also make them look a bit more like in SR1, would be their oversized boots and gauntlets. When equipped, they would slow you down a bit and perhaps stop you from doing the pounce move, but in exchange for that, you get increased strength and a different special move.

What you you guys think?

Ah, I am in favour of keeping it this way too. I didn't like Dumahim being bald and that warpainting looks silly, they just do not look good, I think, but Turelim are surelly to be the tank.


I'm ravenous to see the Zephonim implemented.

I would LOVE to see it too!

Anansios
27th Oct 2013, 19:58
I'm actually beginning to think that Dumahim only look like a stealth based class when placed next to the hulking Turelim. As the third raised, maybe the right think to do is view the Dumahim as the standard class. Average speed, power and defense, at least in comparison to other vampires.

As vampires, all the classes should possess some elements of stealth; not necessarily in gameplay, but at least in aesthetics. Maybe their aesthetic choice will make more sense once we see the other clans, especially if the Zephonim are lankier.

I have to strongly agree here. The Dumahim are most like vampires in general. All need to be stealthy to a a large extent. How else could they sneak up on ranged characters?

I have a hard time seeing the Dumahim as any kind of specialized vampires, even in SR1.

@Vampmaster
What ability did they have in SR1? The clan used their tongues, and they looked fairly armored but were they really that distinct? Dumah only had that constricting ability. He was tough, but Turel was the only vampire harmed by the Reaver and he was a half-starved blind prisoner.

On the warpaint, I am neutral. Personally, I never put war paint on my own characters, but that is a matter of taste. Some people use it, so why not the Dumahim? :) I also enjoy my full head of hair, but going into battle with short hair (or none) makes a lot of sense...decapitation and all that :P

That pounce ability looks pretty fun.

Honestly though, what would you say made the Dumahim unique in SR1? Also, besides their appearance, what else could you name?

I can't think of much, so I can't fault their design.
---
I REALLY can't wait for Zephonim! So much potential! Rahab takes some imagination lol.

Vampmaster
27th Oct 2013, 20:50
I have to strongly agree here. The Dumahim are most like vampires in general. All need to be stealthy to a a large extent. How else could they sneak up on ranged characters?

I have a hard time seeing the Dumahim as any kind of specialized vampires, even in SR1.

@Vampmaster
What ability did they have in SR1? The clan used their tongues, and they looked fairly armored but were they really that distinct? Dumah only had that constricting ability. He was tough, but Turel was the only vampire harmed by the Reaver and he was a half-starved blind prisoner.

On the warpaint, I am neutral. Personally, I never put war paint on my own characters, but that is a matter of taste. Some people use it, so why not the Dumahim? :) I also enjoy my full head of hair, but going into battle with short hair (or none) makes a lot of sense...decapitation and all that :P

That pounce ability looks pretty fun.

Honestly though, what would you say made the Dumahim unique in SR1? Also, besides their appearance, what else could you name?

I can't think of much, so I can't fault their design.
---
I REALLY can't wait for Zephonim! So much potential! Rahab takes some imagination lol.

I'm not talking about their physical apperance. In fact of all the vampire classes, they're the ones that I have the least to complain about apperarance wise. As you said, they weren't that unique, hence the comment about the jack-of-all-trades.

Everything from what Dumah himself says in the script, his physical appearance, his production codename "Ronin" to what developers have said in Q&As suggest the Dumahim were the warrior class. Even if you disagree with that, surely you can see that the insectoid vampires (the Zephonim) would be the stealthy ones.

BTW, where did you get the idea he was blind? Turel was the one who had to sniff Raziel out.

TendrilSavant
28th Oct 2013, 21:45
...surely you can see that the insectoid vampires (the Zephonim) would be the stealthy ones.


I think we should look at it as different types of stealth. The Dumahim could be the aggressive serpent-like stealth warriors, stealthy with powerful fast strikes; while the Zephonim would use subterfuge and maybe poison and traps, only stepping into combat when they can secure the kill.

lordbane2110
29th Oct 2013, 13:58
well considering Dumah was supposed to be snakelike, with the whole dumahim trying to lick you to death in SR1, what about a camoflage or cloak based ability

and as i recall Dumahim were tough buggers to kill, with or without the reaver

Vampmaster
29th Oct 2013, 14:38
well considering Dumah was supposed to be snakelike, with the whole dumahim trying to lick you to death in SR1, what about a camoflage or cloak based ability

and as i recall Dumahim were tough buggers to kill, with or without the reaver

No, he wasn't evolving into a snake. Daniel Cabuco, the (lead?) artist for SR1 said Dumah was designed to evolving into to be "something like a rhino". The tongue resembled that of snake, but the Lieutenants were never said to be evolving into any *specific* species, and could easily incorporate completely random mutations like the tongue.

http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14&p=22

lordbane2110
29th Oct 2013, 14:45
Ah my mistake, but you can't ignore the other clan leaders particular animal traits

Turel = Bat or batlike
Rahab = Fish or shark
Zephon = Spider
Raziel = Bird or Bat

only Melch didn't have an obvious beast like oddity, other than huge lumbering brown thingy

Vampmaster
29th Oct 2013, 15:09
My point was that they were evolving into *something like* those creatures. They're meant to be monstrous, so it's not surprising that Turel might be missing the bat wings, or the Dumahim might have a tongue that's completely out of place for a rhino or that Psyonix appear to have gives the Razielim a carapace that's out of place on a bat.

TendrilSavant
29th Oct 2013, 18:04
Sorry, I wasn't trying to insinuate that the Dumahim were turning into snakes; just making an analogy of different types of stealth variations. In hindsight the stealth of a puma or leopard works best for that analogy; a creature that stalks its prey closely then pounces with brute force.

Anyway my view is that stealth can be designed in many different ways. I'm guessing we'll be getting a lot more classes over the course of the beta, at least 1 for each lieutenant and maybe some extra variations like a telekinetic Turelim. If they are planning many more classes, it would hinder them design wise to limit stealth to one class especially since vampires in Nosgoth have usually been perceived as stealth predators.

IKathaarI
29th Oct 2013, 22:13
Well in SR1 Raziel points out that Melchiah (butchered spelling) was the youngest and received the poorest portion of the 'dark gift' meaning he was the first to 'devolve' and would do so the most horrifically.

Playing through SR1 you come to realize that your brother's are more and more humanoid as you go along, with Dumah being the most human-like of them all.

So sure, each had it's own 'creature trait' but most of that boils down to creating interesting game mechanics and very themed dungeons. Lore probably applied afterward.

As for Rahabim, I'd say the ability to dive in/out of water to dodge projectiles, while being able to spit close to mid-range FROM water (any further might cause imbalance if Humans don't have a proper counter for this).

Zephim should definitely be a more stealth-heavy class than Dumahim, possibly able to scale ceilings and drop onto prey. Might become too camping prone if not balanced properly with minimal health/armour or a very effective Human counter.

Melchim i'd like to see be able to phase through thin boundaries, giving them numerous shortcuts and bypasses around the map, getting them from point A to point B the quickest, while being able to use this ability to avoid combat when needed.

lordbane2110
31st Oct 2013, 09:49
The phasing of the Melchiahim, seems to be the most popular idea for them, so i reckon that's the most likely to be included

The Zeph clinging to the walls like spiders also is a good fit, as for rahabim they said they wanted to keep the vampires melee, while the humans are ranged, so a ranged ability on one of the vamp clans seems unlikely, but it's not been released yet so who knows. I personally would like to see 3 ranged vamps, 3 ranged humans and 3 melee humans with there also being 3 melee vamps

Vampmaster
31st Oct 2013, 12:26
I can't see the idea of only having three classes to choose from at a time being that popular, especially if there are a lot more in total. Sure, they could whack it up to 10+ different classes per side and you get to pick from 5 per match. But it does mean a lot more time creating animations and who knows how many the engine can even support.

IKathaarI
1st Nov 2013, 00:27
I think it's safe to assume at this point that they do intend to bring all the clans in (why not? lore-wise it makes little sense that any one clan would dip out of the war)

TendrilSavant
1st Nov 2013, 01:02
Sure, they could whack it up to 10+ different classes per side...

My guess is 6 classes for vampires and 6 for human by the end of closed beta. To me it seems like a logical milestone to work towards before going into open beta. Then after that they could add more classes by building off of the input they received in alpha and closed beta.


But it does mean a lot more time creating animations and who knows how many the engine can even support.

I'm sure it wouldn't be too much of a problem if they planned ahead. Most female game characters can use similar animations since their proportions don't vary too much (and we already have 1 female class). As for males, in this game it looks like only the Razielim would have unique animations. The Turelim rig could probably be used for another hulking class if needed, and the rest of the classes will probably be somewhat standard proportions.

Vampmaster
1st Nov 2013, 08:53
My guess is 6 classes for vampires and 6 for human by the end of closed beta. To me it seems like a logical milestone to work towards before going into open beta. Then after that they could add more classes by building off of the input they received in alpha and closed beta.

When I said "I can't see the idea of only having three classes to choose from at a time being that popular, especially if there are a lot more in total", I was assuming 6 each side, but that makes three per match if half are ranged and half melee. It also means that three new human and three new vampire classes need to be released at exactly the same time.


I'm sure it wouldn't be too much of a problem if they planned ahead. Most female game characters can use similar animations since their proportions don't vary too much (and we already have 1 female class). As for males, in this game it looks like only the Razielim would have unique animations. The Turelim rig could probably be used for another hulking class if needed, and the rest of the classes will probably be somewhat standard proportions.

Using male rigs on female characters almost never looks very good. It's always caused technical problems when brought up where I work and SE said pretty much the same thing.

TendrilSavant
1st Nov 2013, 17:55
It also means that three new human and three new vampire classes need to be released at exactly the same time.

I disagree with that, but I guess all we can do is wait and see how they plan of handling the release of new classes.


Using male rigs on female characters almost never looks very good.

That's not what I meant, and I agree with you there. We already have a female rig that's animated, the Alchemist; I was stating that any new female (human) class could use that rig and animations as long as the proportions stay similar. A female vampire might need a new rig (haven't played the game so I don't know) but that rig doesn't need to be exclusive to that class if another female vampire class could be made.

Anyway, this is all assumption based on my knowledge of modding. But I'll hold off on my input on the technical side of things until I see the game in action.

lordbane2110
7th Nov 2013, 10:15
hmmm would be cool if we could have Male / Female variations of all the Classes / Races, which i know would be a lot of work but would also help maybe attract more female gamers, after all there's nothing quite like bringing girls into gaming and I should know, some of the best team mates I've ever had in a Call of Duty Multiplayer Match have been women.

Vampmaster
7th Nov 2013, 10:57
Maybe the Zephonim should be a female vampire class for now until we know what the technical limitations and time constraints are for getting male and female or every class. That way, there's still some variation even if it's not possible to do everything.

lordbane2110
7th Nov 2013, 11:01
Yeah i guess, still it'de be nice, although female spider vamps?, I guess we will have to wait and see

although I am now picturing the azlu from whitewolfs Werewolf the Forsaken

Vampmaster
7th Nov 2013, 13:26
Yeah i guess, still it'de be nice, although female spider vamps?, I guess we will have to wait and see

although I am now picturing the azlu from whitewolfs Werewolf the Forsaken

Well, yes. If they were fully devolved spiders, they might not be recognisable as female, but comparing with the other vampire classes (the Razielim being the most devolved and the Dumahim being the least) then the Zephonim would be even less devolved than the Dumahim. Although I'm sure there's more going on underneath the surface than we've seen.

The Dumahim might have their whip tongues or the Zehponim might have that face splitting thing.

TendrilSavant
7th Nov 2013, 17:28
Female vampires? In my Zephonim?
It's more likely than you think.

Female vampire concept art from SR1 (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Female_vampires_%28SR1%29)

I agree with Vampmaster, that the Zephonim are a good place to start with female vampires. I could be wrong but the females in the concept art I linked seem to be Zephonim. Hopefully, they'll be equipped with a little more than a leotard and leggins in Nosgoth though.

ZeroFernir
11th Nov 2013, 02:34
Maybe the Zephonim should be a female vampire class for now until we know what the technical limitations and time constraints are for getting male and female or every class. That way, there's still some variation even if it's not possible to do everything.

I would like Zephonim being male, but I have no problem with it being female, though. I think Rahabim would fit a female, and so would Dumahim and Melchiahim... Zephonim would be cool male or female. I think maybe the scout human class shou be female, and the alchemist male... I dunno, but I didn't liked the design of that alchemist. It's clothings look bad.

lordbane2110
14th Nov 2013, 11:06
Just looked at the female sketchs for the female vamps, and they kinda remind me of the xenos from aliens

which is freakin awesome

with the whole detatchable jaw thing, yes we so need these. they could look all defenseless and innocent, THEN WHAM

OM NOM NOM