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TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 21:15
Here's a question for all of you who know the inner most intricacies of the lore. Why couldn't Raziel and Kain have gone further back in time to the point right after the Blood Curse had been bestowed upon the Ancient Vampires?

If they would have done this after Raziel obtained the spirit reaver, they could have sought out Janos and explained everything to him in vivid detail...then purified his vision so that he could see the Elder God for what it truly is. This would have likely resulted in the two of them ceasing to exist as they currently are, but they would have told Janos to sire Kain as a reward for this truth...who would then sire Raziel and his brothers.

Janos would then begin to show his own brethren that the Elder God is nothing more than a parasite, meaning that the Hylden were right all along in their desire to turn against this entity. Accepting the blood curse as atonement for their crimes against the Hylden, they could then release them back into Nosgoth and combine forces to completely annihilate the Elder God.

Kain, Raziel, and his brothers would be born...sired...and create the clans we all know and love without the devolution curse because Nupraptor wouldn't have ever been driven to madness from the assassination of his beloved. This would mean that their evolution, which still occurs naturally judging from Vorador, would have been much more stable and controlled...leaving them to develop into something similar but far more refined than what we know and love today.

Everyone wins, except the humans.

If it's a matter of the obvious paradox involving Kain and Raziel no longer existing in a timeline that sends them back to do all this, are there no other paradoxes in the official storyline? I found all the time jumps to be a bit confusing, probably because I have only played the Soul Reaver series and not Kain's games.

Are paradoxes permitted in Nosgoth? (The realm, not just the current game being worked on.)

This probably should have been placed in the off-topic section. My apologies, I'm used to sticking around this section and not venturing out from it. :P

Vampmaster
19th Oct 2013, 21:45
You kind of anwered your own question when you said "This would have likely resulted in the two of them ceasing to exist as they currently are". If they cease to exist, they won't be there to explain things to Janos or get him to sire their human selves and so on.

Paradoxes in their literal definition are not allowed in Nosgoth, but there's some dispute over the meaning of the word in the LOK series that causes confusion. What we call a paradox in real life, is referred to by Kain in SR2 as a "fatal paradox" and is the kind where history resets itself as if the person who tried to change history never did so. Kain also says if someone tries to do this, they are expelled from history. It's never been explained what that means. It could mean the person is erased from existance or it could mean they are returned to their own time as if they never left.

The other definition of paradox is like a potential or temporary paradox. If "history" can come up with an excuse to allow the change in history to occur without it leading to scenario above, then the change is permitted. However it only works with the most minor of changes. That's why Kain must be careful not to strain history too far.

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 21:59
You kind of anwered your own question when you said "This would have likely resulted in the two of them ceasing to exist as they currently are". If they cease to exist, they won't be there to explain things to Janos or get him to sire their human selves and so on.

Paradoxes in their literal definition are not allowed in Nosgoth, but there's some dispute over the meaning of the word in the LOK series that causes confusion. What we call a paradox in real life, is referred to by Kain in SR2 as a "fatal paradox" and is the kind where history resets itself as if the person who tried to change history never did so. Kain also says if someone tries to do this, they are expelled from history. It's never been explained what that means. It could mean the person is erased from existance or it could mean they are returned to their own time as if they never left.

The other definition of paradox is like a potential or temporary paradox. If "history" can come up with an excuse to allow the change in history to occur without it leading to scenario above, then the change is permitted. However it only works with the most minor of changes. That's why Kain must be careful not to strain history too far.

This leaves me with a curious question...

Raziel kills Raziel thus giving Kain the body needed to resurrect Raziel as a vampire. This, unto itself, is as significant a paradox as the one described. Were it not for Raziel being cast back through time to kill himself, he'd have never become Raziel the Vampire nor the wraith who ultimately becomes one with the Reaver blade.

Now, keep in mind that I'm not trying to harp upon this at all...the realm of Nosgoth doesn't technically have to function off our understanding of space and time. Besides, as it stands, we're still debating whether or not we can traverse back in time and alter the course of events within our own reality...let alone a fabricated one.

I'm just curious if my presented course could be pursued within the realm of Nosgoth under the current understanding of how space and time function in this particular fantasy environment. At the very least, it could trip up a developer and give us an interesting response... >.>

RainaAudron
19th Oct 2013, 22:16
That´s the thing - Raziel always goes back in time and kills his Sarafan self.

In the series a paradox occurs during an event when two incarnations of Soul Reaver meet in time and space, as they cannot devour each other souls, it creates a paradox, which enables a way to change the history.

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 22:24
That´s the thing - Raziel always goes back in time and kills his Sarafan self.

In the series a paradox occurs during an event when two incarnations of Soul Reaver meet in time and space, as they cannot devour each other souls, it creates a paradox, which enables a way to change the history.

Actually, you're correct...

I'm tripping myself up here. So a true paradox is the only way to change the course of events by effectively breaking time...so to speak. I still feel like I'm missing a paradox, but that's likely just because the time streaming without having played the other games has left be a bit confused.

Paradoks_db
19th Oct 2013, 22:30
I think may may find this quote interesting. It comes from Q&A with the Defiance team.


Q: Why did Raziel purify the future Kain, instead of going back a few minutes through time, before Kain refused the pillars and after he killed Hash, wouldn't that have fixed everything?

A: This goes back to our belief in the constant view that you cannot change history 'because you didn't' as shown in 12 Monkeys. If we run through the events you can see that purifying past Kain rather than Future Kain would have added a extremely fatal paradox into the time stream that would probably have expulsed Raziel all together if he tried to enact it by crossing two Soul Reavers. If past Kain is purified than the purification of the Pillars themselves would have changed the course of history most certainly eliminating all the events that led up to the remaking of Raziel all together. If that event does not happen then all the events that led Raziel to eventually purify BO1 Kain would never have happened thus making the purification itself a paradox. A change of this magnitude would probably, as stated in SR2, just expunge the irritant completely from history thus in the end ruining all of Kain and Raziel's efforts. Therefore only future Kain can be restored.

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 22:42
Fair enough explanation, as I said...I'm tripping myself up a bit. I was working under the assumption that paradoxes already existed, but I was horribly mistaken when I initially took Raziel going back through time and killing himself as a paradox. I suppose I was thinking about it in the context of what would occur within reality rather than fiction, you wouldn't come back a vampire to go through time and kill yourself setting up the events to become a vampire...you'd just die, which would cause a paradox. :P

Thanks for untwisting my mind there.

Vampmaster
19th Oct 2013, 23:05
Dying's perfectly fine as long as you get resurrected afterwards.


That´s the thing - Raziel always goes back in time and kills his Sarafan self.

In the series a paradox occurs during an event when two incarnations of Soul Reaver meet in time and space, as they cannot devour each other souls, it creates a paradox, which enables a way to change the history.

Those aren't true paradoxes in the real life definition of the word. I was trying to explain that we'd call a paradox in real life is actually a fatal paradox in the series. The ones we've seen in the series so far are more like a near-miss. As if history discovered a way out at the last minute. The reaver never actually devours it's former self.

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 23:06
Indeed, which is what must have been giving me the feeling of a paradox. Don't believe there's anything else that could be considered such either, the development team was clever.

Gryregaest
19th Oct 2013, 23:15
Yeah, the LoK universe seems to have its own standard paradoxes. Which I shall refer to as an "Orthodox Paradox", because it's fun to say. Because they are a standard part of the universe, they're technically not paradoxes. Only the convergence of Reavers generates a true paradox.

Though even if that did count as a paradox, it would still be what you might call a "soft paradox", given that the timeline can reshuffle itself. It's not the same as an ordinary person going back and killing themself, which would be a fatal paradox, since you can't really reshuffle that. But in Raziel's case, human Raziel lives centuries before the time of vampire Raziel, so regardless of whether he kills his human self, the human self would still be dead, and thus he could still be resurrected as a vampire. So reshuffling that seems much more possible. But as has been established, it's an Orthodox Paradox.

What I want to know, is what happens to Raziel's wraith blade version of the reaver when he gets sucked into the physical reaver. Does it get freed? In which case does he effectively die at that point? Or does it get sucked in with him? Because if it does get sucked in with him, that would mean that the reaver is not just Raziel. It is infinite Raziels. Raziel plus the reaver being sucked in is two, but if the reaver that gets sucked into the reaver is already two, that would mean its three, which would mean its for, et cetera. Could that be why the reaver is so significant? A reaver clashing with Raziel or another reaver - you're trying to add infinity. Sort of like dividing by zero. Tears the universe a new one.

Paradoks_db
19th Oct 2013, 23:23
What I want to know, is what happens to Raziel's wraith blade version of the reaver when he gets sucked into the physical reaver.
The answer is:


Q: How can the wraith blade be sucked into the blood Reaver with Raziel's soul, wouldn't that mean that there
are two souls in there?

A: The purified wraith blade that Raziel possesses is not drained into the Soul Reaver along with Raziel. In order for Kain to become purified by the wraith blade that contains the purity, the wraith blade must be dispersed or released from its imprisonment into Kain. Thus in that one single moment Raziel is simultaneously trapping himself within the Reaver but as well finally freeing himself from thousands of years of torment.

diuqSehT
19th Oct 2013, 23:26
what happens to Raziel's wraith blade version of the reaver when he gets sucked into the physical reaver. Does it get freed? if it does get sucked in with him, that would mean infinite Raziels.

There's just one trip he makes around the loop in time. The one we experienced along with him. That's why it was all new to him, no deja vu or anything. That's also why there's only one soul inside the sword. It's not going round and round in time picking up more souls as it goes. The circle existence he lived sort of removed him from the wheel of fate's grasp. He replaced the eternal wheel with his own kind of infinity, the loop. So when his wraith blade soul dissipates at the end of the series (after healing Kain) it probably doesn't go back to the wheel. It's just at peace. Finally at rest, floating off into oblivion.

Gryregaest
19th Oct 2013, 23:36
That makes enough sense. Though I still like the idea of it being infinite Raziels. Where are you all getting this Q&A stuff from?

Lord_Aevum
19th Oct 2013, 23:49
From the hippinest, happenest place in town, the Eidos Forums (http://www.forums.eidosgames.com/) which we all migrated from.

Unfortunately they're down right now, but you can still catch the Q&A texts here (http://www.nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig).

Gryregaest
19th Oct 2013, 23:58
Thanks!

TenebraeAeterna
20th Oct 2013, 03:17
Indeed, thank you for the Q&A.

With that said, I now wonder if Kain can ultimately resurrect Raziel within the future. It's obvious that he didn't enjoy the way things transpired and held a very compassionate scene when Raziel sacrificed himself, saying there had to be another way. After all is said and done...will Kain destroy the Reaver to release Raziel's soul in the hopes that he can implant it within another body or somehow manifest another corporeal form through some yet unknown process?

Paradoks_db
20th Oct 2013, 03:59
Indeed, thank you for the Q&A.

With that said, I now wonder if Kain can ultimately resurrect Raziel within the future. It's obvious that he didn't enjoy the way things transpired and held a very compassionate scene when Raziel sacrificed himself, saying there had to be another way. After all is said and done...will Kain destroy the Reaver to release Raziel's soul in the hopes that he can implant it within another body or somehow manifest another corporeal form through some yet unknown process?

The answer is:



Q: Is Raziel permanently trapped in the Reaver until his soul is released in SR?

A: Raziel is doomed to play out his circular destiny over and over again

Raziel must stay trapped in the Reaver and the Reaver eventually must find it's way to Moebius so that the history can repeat itself. I know that Dark Prophecy team had the idea to release him but fortunately people from Crystal Dynamics were opposed to that. If Raziel is freed, then Moebius can't give the Reaver to William, young Kain can't find the blade in Avernus, elder Kain can't shatter it on wraith Raziel's back and Raziel can't have his symbiotic weapon.

TenebraeAeterna
20th Oct 2013, 04:13
I'm speaking of events yet to come, the future beyond what we currently know. The history you speak of, which needs to be repeated, is within the past...and now we're at a point where the Soul Reaver has been made whole and Kain purified through this final act of Raziel.

So, what will Kain do?

Will there be a day when he believes he no longer needs his sword and destroys it in order to release the imprisoned soul of the only son he seemingly cared about...find a way to grant this soul a new corporeal form? This can occur in the future because it doesn't change the endless cycle you spoke of, that still transpires within the past...Kain still gets the Reaver made whole, still becomes purified, and continues on with that blade into future events which may lead to him releasing Raziel and finding a way to restore him to a physical incarnation through some process within the future.

Paradoks_db
20th Oct 2013, 04:24
I'm speaking of events yet to come, the future beyond what we currently know. The history you speak of, which needs to be repeated, is within the past...and now we're at a point where the Soul Reaver has been made whole and Kain purified through this final act of Raziel.
The Soul Reaver has just been created. And it needs to complete the circle. Kain can't do with it whatever he wants. He must ensure that the Reaver's path remains intact. If he destroys the sword (something he can't do anyway without another instance of the Reaver) the whole history is falling apart.

TenebraeAeterna
20th Oct 2013, 05:18
The Soul Reaver has just been created. And it needs to complete the circle. Kain can't do with it whatever he wants. He must ensure that the Reaver's path remains intact. If he destroys the sword (something he can't do anyway without another instance of the Reaver) the whole history is falling apart.

This Kain isn't the Kain that goes back through time though.

This is the Kain that already went back through time to complete these events, he doesn't have to go back through time to do this all over again because he had already done so. The cycle continues within the past, this Kain is the Kain that movies forward with the sword made whole...containing Raziel's soul. This is the Kain that has already done all of the events which take place...past, present, and future. He has the sword that goes on into the future, the sword created after the cycle.

This is the sword, and the Kain, that goes beyond the loop and into the future...no?

Vampmaster
20th Oct 2013, 10:18
You said yourself, the wraithblade dispersed into Kain. That means Raziel is no longer in that endless loop, but in Kain now. It was never confirmed whether it remained intact during the process, or just converted to energy once it had purified him.

I think on of the Q&As confirmed that there were never infinite Raziels in the blade and that he always dispersed somewhere. That makes more sense to me than Raziel's future self replacing his former self, but it contradicts to whole endless loop thing.

Paradoks_db
20th Oct 2013, 12:38
This Kain isn't the Kain that goes back through time though.
[...]
This is the sword, and the Kain, that goes beyond the loop and into the future...no?
Kain goes beyond the loop because he came from the future and as you said already went through these events, but the Reaver cannot as it has just been created and hasn't entered the loop yet. There is only one Reaver and it needs to be destroyed on Raziel's back in SR1.
Let me put this this way - taking the Reaver out of the loop would make creating the Reaver impossible in the first place. This is the exact problem as the one in the first post. The loop needs an entry point. Originally the Reaver was created in the Sarafan Stronghold and Moebius could give it to William centuries later. Now, when the Reaver was created in Vampire Citadel and is in Kain's possession that entry point and as a result all further events involving the Reaver are gone). Kain needs to use the it for whatever he needs (probably dealing with Elder God), and then he needs to put it back in time.

The_Hylden
21st Oct 2013, 00:32
Paradoks, you're sounding like Alex Trebek :p "The answer is:" lol

Paradoks_db
21st Oct 2013, 00:46
Paradoks, you're sounding like Alex Trebek :p "The answer is:" lol
Maybe I'm just getting to old for this.

And I actually had to look up who the guy was.

diuqSehT
21st Oct 2013, 01:07
Reaver needs to be destroyed on Raziel's back in SR1.

Remember how they used to switch someone's coffee with Folger's Crystals? It'd be cute if Kain tried to shove some other soul into the reaver so Raz could get ejected and freed again. I always perk up a little bit whenever somebody comes up with a scheme to free Raziel, but it's a really tall order. Because of the quote above, and other things. The blade needs to break in SR1 against the back of whoever is carrying the same soul as the blade contains. Not only that, but the hero with the wraith blade attached to his arm would then have to be that new guy you'd switched to (instead of Raziel's wraith). So that'd be too much change. By bringing Raziel back you'd be erasing most of his accomplishments and handing that history to someone else, and Kain doesn't trust anybody else that much.

Not that I want more of Wraith Raziel as a character, either, since he really has lived out his destiny and should rest in peace. (That fits well with the Hindu model of things: Raz reached enlightenment at the end of Defiance, so like Buddha he gets to stop going round in reincarnation circles.) But if his soul could reincarnate in some new character, with a new fate to live, yet strenthened by having the heritage of the Raziel soul, that might be tempting..... (was that what Gein was going to be in the cancelled game?)


Kain needs to use the it for whatever he needs (probably dealing with Elder God), and then he needs to put it back in time. Well history is still intact, even with this new onramp for the reaver loop (starting in a different century at the vampire citadel instead of sarafan keep). So we can already say with confidence that the path of the reaver is secure, because the future still had it to crack over Raz's back and the wraith blade still travels back in time on Raziel's arm, etc. So it's already true that the sword does get given back to history after the hero is done with it so that it can complete its path through time. We just don't know for sure if Kain is the one who'll surrender the blade, or someone else.

Swagraven
21st Oct 2013, 22:23
That means Raziel is no longer in that endless loop, but in Kain now. It was never confirmed whether it remained intact during the process, or just converted to energy once it had purified him.

I want to bring up this idea that Raziel might have gone into Kain and remained intact for a bit...If he is released from the Reaver to purify Kain, and his soul is still whole, and individual, that would mean Kain then has a deranged, violent entity roaming about inside him. (Not that Kain wasn't already violent, but he's not point blank insane yet.) I just want to speculate here: what would that do to Kain? >.>
I can't forsee a happy ending for anyone if Raziel enters Kain intact, honestly.

Vampmaster
21st Oct 2013, 22:33
I want to bring up this idea that Raziel might have gone into Kain and remained intact for a bit...If he is released from the Reaver to purify Kain, and his soul is still whole, and individual, that would mean Kain then has a deranged, violent entity roaming about inside him. (Not that Kain wasn't already violent, but he's not point blank insane yet.) I just want to speculate here: what would that do to Kain? >.>
I can't forsee a happy ending for anyone if Raziel enters Kain intact, honestly.

Indeed. The best I could hope for him is that he is released to the wheel and allowed to be reborn once the EG is no longer in control of it.

BTW, he wouldn't be deranged anymore because the spirit forge clensed him of that. That's how he was able to purify Kain as well.

TenebraeAeterna
21st Oct 2013, 22:38
The Elder God implies that he's inside the sword doesn't he?

Vampmaster
21st Oct 2013, 22:43
The Elder God implies that he's inside the sword doesn't he?

Raziel enters the sword, but the Spirit Reaver attached to his arm is his future self from after he gets out. You can't have two Raziels in the sword, so that went into Kain instead. There's a Q&A on www.thelostworlds.net

diuqSehT
21st Oct 2013, 23:07
I want to bring up this idea that Raziel might have gone into Kain and remained intact for a bit...I can't forsee a happy ending for anyone if Raziel enters Kain intact, honestly.

There was some fan fiction written about them entering each other with a happy ending. :whistle:

Although, how cool would it be if Kain the Scion gets totally electrocuted by the pillars when they overload him with energy right at the moment of his greatest victory so that he explodes into bits, and then once his bloody mist clears from out of the air and the dust settles, what'd be standing in the spot where Kain was a second ago? The Raziel soul, suddenly exposed to the light of day, its hiding place removed.

Alternately, if the Scion's job includes powering some device to heal the land by pouring out the Balance Guardian spirits from inside himself, Raziel might be among them when they all embark on that spiritual bus ride. If those spirits need to do some ghostbusting in the spectral realm, Raziel is a pro at that and could lead them against the true enemy while Kain handles things in the material world. And if the Hylden invent a super-duper human possession machine that's capable to taking over even Kain's mind, then it'd be cool to see Kain get Re-Possessed from the inside by Raziel and the balance spirit gang. The green glow would fade from his eyes as they turned bright blue and shone with vampire pride like the prophesied vampire hero.

The_Hylden
21st Oct 2013, 23:47
I want to bring up this idea that Raziel might have gone into Kain and remained intact for a bit...If he is released from the Reaver to purify Kain, and his soul is still whole, and individual, that would mean Kain then has a deranged, violent entity roaming about inside him. (Not that Kain wasn't already violent, but he's not point blank insane yet.) I just want to speculate here: what would that do to Kain? >.>
I can't foresee a happy ending for anyone if Raziel enters Kain intact, honestly.

Raziel, as the wraith blade, was purified of all corruption and of spirit before it entered Kain, so I don't believe he's deranged and violent here.

Plus, even if that all didn't happen, I've long stated that I believe that the SR2 paradox's outcome that leads to Raziel's new entry in the blade is also the reason why we see a compliant and docile wraith blade in Defiance, instead of the deranged, ravenous version that led Raziel around, or began feeding on his own energy when it became too aroused. The change from that in Defiance, which I don't think was mere gameplay-related, I think is due to Raziel choosing to enter the sword this time, instead of being forced in there at the poinst of no hope, as he was before in the Sarafan Stronghold. That despair and emptiness probably festered for those thousands of years, until he, as the wraith blade, simply grew dormant. Then, in William's Chapel, Raziel reawakens it fully and you see the outcome of all of those years trapped with that pain. However, choosing to enter the sword this time, with a purpose, probably made a ton of difference.

So, even if the blade weren't purified, which means it should no longer have any deranged state of being, I also believe it was already more compliant due to how it, as Raziel, chose to enter the sword.


I also think that it shouldn't be remaining within Kain. Raziel was supposed to have been freed in this moment, so let him rest in freedom.

Denam_Pavel
23rd Oct 2013, 01:12
Raziel, as the wraith blade, was purified of all corruption and of spirit before it entered Kain, so I don't believe he's deranged and violent here.

Plus, even if that all didn't happen, I've long stated that I believe that the SR2 paradox's outcome that leads to Raziel's new entry in the blade is also the reason why we see a compliant and docile wraith blade in Defiance, instead of the deranged, ravenous version that led Raziel around, or began feeding on his own energy when it became too aroused. The change from that in Defiance, which I don't think was mere gameplay-related, I think is due to Raziel choosing to enter the sword this time, instead of being forced in there at the poinst of no hope, as he was before in the Sarafan Stronghold. That despair and emptiness probably festered for those thousands of years, until he, as the wraith blade, simply grew dormant. Then, in William's Chapel, Raziel reawakens it fully and you see the outcome of all of those years trapped with that pain. However, choosing to enter the sword this time, with a purpose, probably made a ton of difference.

So, even if the blade weren't purified, which means it should no longer have any deranged state of being, I also believe it was already more compliant due to how it, as Raziel, chose to enter the sword.


I also think that it shouldn't be remaining within Kain. Raziel was supposed to have been freed in this moment, so let him rest in freedom.

Well the Reaver DID still turn on Raziel in Avernus Cathedrel. But I guess it didn't take any better to the Hylden possessing them then Raziel himself did.

The_Hylden
23rd Oct 2013, 14:07
It has to be the instrument that creates itself. We see it slink around the blade to pull Raziel into it whenever it has a chance. It does so at the end when Raziel chooses to enter the sword. While healing Kain, a portion of it wraps around the sword hilt and pulls Raziel into the sword (viewable with Vampmaster's camera trainer on PC). He flashes transparent for a brief moment while this happens.

That wasn't what I was referring to. I'm referring to it behaving in general. The loop that is Raziel's destiny, in that his own older self in the wraith blade aids in its own creation, is the destiny that must play out. Raziel choosing to let it happen this time around is the change.

Vampmaster
23rd Oct 2013, 14:23
If it creates itself, then it exists for no reason at all. There's no Soul Reaver and then it just comes into existence because it does. The idea makes no sence because it completely ignores causality. If Raziel starts off not in the Reaver, then there's no Soul Reaver to pull him into the Reaver and therefore no Soul Reaver.

Amy appears to have realized this in Defiance when she has Raziel asking Vorador and Janos whether the intended the Reaver to consume him in the first place.

The_Hylden
23rd Oct 2013, 14:44
It is the instrument pulling Raziel into the sword. We see it do it in all three attempts. I don't understand why that doesn't make sense. It's purpose is to be the spirit within the Soul Reaver, which it is, but it must also be present in creating itself. It doesn't literally birth itself, just puts its former self in Raizel within the sword.

The picture of it doing just that at the end of Defiance:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/pgson/CA4P2Z09.jpg

Credit to you for posting it years ago, as I don't have a save spot yet on this machine to get to it right now.

He asks Vorador and Janos if the blade was meant to consume him. Neither answer, so that doesn't counter anything. It's a logical question for him to ask.

Vampmaster
23rd Oct 2013, 16:05
It's nothing that's been said in the story that it contradicts, but it is still happening "just because".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox
"In these examples, causality is turned on its head, as the flanking events are both causes and effects of each other, and this is where the paradox lies."

It's yet another type of paradox and this type isn't one of the "yeah, you can reshuffle history and it will be ok" ones. It contradicts causality because it doesn't allow for a first time around.

The_Hylden
23rd Oct 2013, 16:36
it's not happening just because and there is a first time around. Time in this story is a continual loop. The wraith blade already went through this process, even though we have not. Once SR2's paradox changed, so did all of time both backward and forward. It was created, therefore it must act as its elder self already acted.


The destiny of the wraith blade is to be within the sword and to be used in that function until it's released over Raziel's back, its former self, and to bind itself to his arm, until this moment, where it ends its fated cycle. Healing the Scion, coaxing its former self within the blade, so that therefore it can exist to reach this moment to begin with, and to disperse within Kain, where it is free of this cycle.

There's nothing "just because" here, anymore than there is of fate, itself, happening just because. Raziel is always to go back and enter the blade, and that doesn't happen any more so in a just because way than its elder self pushing his soul into the sword. Raziel has never been shown being drawn into the blade on his own. That's just the visual and empirical fact we see each time. Raziel comments that the wraith blade and he hover both outside and inside the reaver, causing the paradoxical moment in SR2. There's no reason for both he and the wraith blade to be both outside and inside of the Reaver at the same time, unless the wraith blade is shoving Raziel into the sword.

In Avernus, only when Kain grabs Raziel's wrist where the wraith blade is coiled does Raziel get pulled along Kain's back, via that specific point, over into the sword. The sword has not been shown to have any action on its own.

Perhaps it was imbued to allow for such a being to exist within it, but it's not shown at all to act in sucking up Raziel's soul without the wraith blade's influence. At the end of Defiance, when impaled, Raziel's energy is not being pulled into the sword, by the very way they show it in that cutscne. It's just an open wound we see. As soon as Raziel touches Kain's chest to heal him, this all happens simultaneously -- and your camera trainer proves it:

Raziel flickers immediately transparent, as the energy from the wraith blade both goes into Kain's chest and is visibly seen coiling around Kain's arm, down it to the hilt of the Reaver. There's no reason at all for the wraith blade to be doing that action of coiling down Kain's arm to the hilt unless it was willfully coaxing Raziel's energy into the sword. Even after Raziel lets go of Kain's chest, right before he passes fully into the blade, the wraith blade is still seen coiling down Kain's chest over the hilt of the sword.:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/pgson/CA4P810F.jpg

It only vanishes after Raziel does:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/pgson/CAC9UBKD.jpg

The team is very specific to show the wraith blade doing this, and I can verify it's the same texture/model combo here of the wraith blade going down the hilt of the blade. You tell me why else it would be bothering to coil around the hilt, if its only function here is to heal Kain and has nothing to do with Raziel's entry into the blade.

diuqSehT
23rd Oct 2013, 18:50
If it creates itself, then it exists for no reason at all, just because. There's no Soul Reaver and then it just comes into existence because it does. The idea makes no sence because it completely ignores causality. If Raziel starts off not in the Reaver, then there's no Soul Reaver to pull him into the Reaver and therefore no Soul Reaver.

I don't think LOK is as bad as, say, Terminator 2, at this causation problem. Because in LOK the future doesn't truly create itself. We do have an outside agency, EG, who crafts the reaver loop, taking it upon himself to bend time into that self-fulfilling circle in order to exterminate the vampire species that can't be eradicated in linear time. And once created, the circle then operates all on its own without further help, like one of those fountains that keeps recycling the water round and round without you needing to do anything because the physics you set in motion are keeping things going now. So EG and Moebius are the "doers" here, the creators, and the sword isn't on the hook for having to justify its existence. The loop we see is just operating on autopilot. It isn't creating itself. The Dark Forces did that. The sword is free to just be a sword and follow the path set for it by those other minds who forged the loop for it.

By contrast, if the sword itself was going to somehow switch from a linear existence to suddenly create a non-linear loop for itself, that would have been more of a causality issue for me because how would it gain access to that other mode of existence using only what's "possible" for those of us in linear time? That would have been impossible, or very tough to justify. But it's easier to excuse if we say that the outside-of-linear-time EG changed the sword over into non-linear. Then, once he did that, it IS possible for something in non-linear time to prop up its own existence with "future" events, as if it was creating itself when really it's just flowing along the channels set for it by the true creator(s) who remain off-screen. We see how in the games. (I hope this makes sense to others.... because it's one of those things that makes sense to me right now, but might not at this time tomorrow).

lordbane2110
24th Oct 2013, 17:05
You could also say that had there been no reaver, then there would also be no vampires, after all without the reaver would kain have been able to defeat the dark entity at the end of blood omen

without the reaver, would the elder vampires pictured in the mural (defiance) been able to drive the Hylden into the void

and how exactly would raziel kill his younger self in the past with mobius's powers blocking his vampiric nature

it's pretty much a if raziel is the reaver, and all the points in time from Soul Reaver to Defiance, kinda indicate that he will be

then by removing him or the reaver from the equation, will throw up too many plot holes to fill

The_Hylden
24th Oct 2013, 18:11
I don't think LOK is as bad as, say, Terminator 2, at this causation problem. Because in LOK the future doesn't truly create itself. We do have an outside agency, EG, who crafts the reaver loop, taking it upon himself to bend time into that self-fulfilling circle in order to exterminate the vampire species that can't be eradicated in linear time. And once created, the circle then operates all on its own without further help, like one of those fountains that keeps recycling the water round and round without you needing to do anything because the physics you set in motion are keeping things going now. So EG and Moebius are the "doers" here, the creators, and the sword isn't on the hook for having to justify its existence.

I'm not sure where you came to any of these conclusions, but I don't think any of that would ever be plausible.

The EG has not been shown to be able to manipulate time. He's opened a time portal for Kain once, though whether that was his doing, or that chamber already had that function in the Citadel, is certainly not even explained. There is literally no evidence and no claim even by the EG that he has ever manipulated time, nor that he was ever the originator of the loop within it that the Soul Reaver is on.

Moebius is bound to fate, like all other beings except for Raziel. He proves this in never once thwarting fate, but rather embracing it in his own death, and the unknown of after the EG resurrected him. All he can do is peer into the timestream and move about through it, where he's fated to go. He was fated to always given the Reaver to William the Just. However, Moebius doesn't engender the outcome that changes time here. Kain's already lived on the timeline prior to this change, yet in both timelines, he goes back in time with his Reaver, and Moebius gives the blade over to William the Just. In the first timeline, Kain did not kill William. This is all that Moebius does, play his part that time and fate have already written for him to play.

Time in Nosgoth is simply a fated loop, one path. That path cannot inherently be altered by any one it, since they are woven into this one path, themselves. Raziel's free will and two of him from different moments on the timeline clashing in a paradoxical moment is the only event where even the chance of alteration can happen, usually met with time straining to not be destroyed as it courses around the change. Once set, that is the one, unalterable path of time, both forward and backward.

We never see the EG, or Moebius, claim that they can alter this immutable path.

diuqSehT
29th Oct 2013, 20:56
Or you could just see it. Moebius is influencing events--reaver loop events--and Elder is coaching him, which amounts to crafting the reaver loop, or at least it's the same as having an existing wedding ring resized by the skill of a jeweler, not by waiting around for fate to do it but by acting out their fates to do it themselves. By manipulating the loop, which means manipulating time. The timestreamer DOES sieze upon a loose thread to plunge the fate of planets into chaos. He does ACT to bring this doom about. It's the efforts of Moby and Elder that make it their fate to help forge the reaver loop---the fate they're bound to is to change fate. It needn't be only they who are responsible for it, though. Defiance's analogy for vampires taking back control of the loop was a poker game---dealing another hand against fate. So I see it like that: the loop is like the poker table that all these interested parties have gathered around, and they're all playing a high stakes game of poker and the winner gets to break the stalemate of history. The ancients set the ball rolling by forging the reaver to try to reclaim their destiny, so they're a player in this game. The Elder God dealt himself into the game by making sure to produce the Raziel Wraith when it was time for the loop to close; he then sics Raz on Kain like a bat out of hell so they clash and the wraith blade is released. That's EG manipulating the original loop's construction, as far as we know. Or completing the section of it he was responsible for on schedule. Kain of course dealt the vampires in as players by tossing his firstborn into the lake of the dead as a Hashakgik sacrifice. The hylden then antied up and grabbed a seat at the table by claiming Raz as their champion, hitching their fate to his star. So they're all framers of the loop. They've all put their destinies on the table, tied their fate to the outcome of the loop, so the pressures coming from all of those jostling destinies is what hammers the loop into its shape. And for the "impossible" non-linear portion of the loop closing upon itself like an oroborous, it's fair to list the EG/Moby faction as the ones who kicked in for that, using their expertise in that field to do the final welding. Hoping that'd give them the advantage, as in "the house always wins." And for a while their luck held out.

The question expressed unhappiness with how the loop could create itself. So this was a better answer than just throwing up yur hands and saying that's the way it is.

Vampmaster
29th Oct 2013, 22:26
I'm not arguing that the loop couldn't exist. I'm saying it can't create itself. A sequence of external events that are neither a part of of the loop nor a consequence of it, led to Raziel going back in time to create the loop in the first place. That would mean that his destiny was set into motion, or in other words, his fate was sealed from before the loop even began.

It doesn't mean he can't get out of it after one or more iterations as happened at the end of Defiance, but it does mean he can't prevent it from happening in the first place. He tried, but that only led to the result at the end of SR2 and his realisation that if he were to succeed, it would be a fatal paradox: If there wasn't a loop to prevent, he wouldn't be able to prevent it.

@The_Hylden - The problem I had with Soul Reaver causing the loop is that you disagreed about it not allowing for a first time around even though the Soul Reaver would also be needed for that first loop. I mean, unless it doesn't matter whether he's in the form of the sword or just himself when he does it. Maybe even as an animate humanoid wraith, he could still force his former self into the blade. I can imagine him doing something like that if he knew one toss of the coin wasn't going to cut it. Forcing himself to retry over and over until it finally lands on it's edge.

Sluagh
8th Nov 2013, 23:44
I'm off to watch High School Musical. I tried to figure all this out some years ago but I have a feeling I ended where I started and in much less of a intricate way than any of the posts here. Some diagrams might help this a bit. I always thought the gambling analogy was how they were presenting influencing fate in the series, nobody having any control apart from Raziel who essentially powerless as he knows none of the answers and has all of the questions.

Liquid_speaker
21st Nov 2013, 05:25
Also, wasn't Janos' heart in 2 places at the same time during a few scenes of the series?

Lord_Aevum
21st Nov 2013, 08:54
There is at least one point where it is arguably in three places.

Doesn't matter whatsoever, though. Only the Soul Reaver can cause a time paradox.

Vampmaster
21st Nov 2013, 09:54
There is at least one point where it is arguably in three places.

Doesn't matter whatsoever, though. Only the Soul Reaver can cause a time paradox.

At least one that doesn't cancel itself out right away. If the heart were somehow used to destroy it's former self, that would be kindof an inert paradox. It would either cancel itself out or would be such a minor one that history would course around it as if the obstruction was never there.

lordbane2110
21st Nov 2013, 10:27
Your forgetting that the Soul Reaver was in fact at first the Blood Reaver created by Vorador, it was then Enchanted by Janos, so at some point even before Kain Gets hold of it in BO1, raziel has travelled to the past to have his soul melded to the reaver

And as for the Heart of Darkness, that has far to many paradoxes to make any sense at all, is it in Kain, Is it in Janos, Is it floating around in cards to be used to rez kain every 5 Seconds in repect to a boss battle.

who knows, at least with the reaver it has a story and a definate timeline that has paradoxical elements, the heart thou, good luck working that one out

The_Hylden
22nd Nov 2013, 08:18
Your forgetting that the Soul Reaver was in fact at first the Blood Reaver created by Vorador, it was then Enchanted by Janos, so at some point even before Kain Gets hold of it in BO1, raziel has travelled to the past to have his soul melded to the reaver

Janos, by his own account, didn't do anything to the blade. Vorador in Defiance, when asked by Raziel what he did to it, that he was its maker, so only he could undo this ... said he didn't know what sorcery Janos and the others laid on the blade after he forged it. However, Janos only has stated in SR2 that the blade was imbued with vampiric energies by the vampire sword smiths to drain their enemies of blood. He, himself, doesn't appear to have had a hand in that. When pressed about it after his revival in Defiance, he's shocked, and doesn't change his story. Also, note that all that Janos believes is that the blade was imbued with is the ability to drink enemies of their blood, not to suck up a soul.


And as for the Heart of Darkness, that has far to many paradoxes to make any sense at all, is it in Kain, Is it in Janos, Is it floating around in cards to be used to rez kain every 5 Seconds in repect to a boss battle.

I don't see how it doesn't make sense. First, the HoD cards in BO1 were already explained as representations, only (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig?page=1#.Uo8SFOKPXzM), not something tangible:


Q: How could the young Kain collect Hearts of Darkness in Blood Omen if he had it inside of his chest all along?
A: The Heart of Darkness cards are representations of the relic, not the real thing. Janos didn't have 99 hearts anyway =).

That's irreverent to the actual story. Kain doesn't actually "find" the HoD, either. As he states within the story we're currently on in Defiance, he never even looked for the actual heart. He had no idea where it was ever, and certainly not that it was within him all of this time.

As for the "paradox" of it being in two places at once not making sense -- why? Kain from the future comes back to the past. He can have a heart while his younger self has it -- in fact, it's essential that his younger self has a younger version of the heart within him, so his elder self has the one he has in the first place.

I'm guessing that the "in three places" notion of the heart is now that this paradox of SR2's end happens, if elder Kain still goes to the future 100 years after BO1's era, where he meets Raziel at the cliffs overlooking Janos' ruined Arie? Yes, if that happens, and it most likely should, then there's a young Kain with Janos' heart, this elder Kain with an older version, and an even older version of the heart from elder Kain, which we see happen later in Defiance, placed back within Janos, who is currently being used at that time by the Hylden to power their gate, or will be.


who knows, at least with the reaver it has a story and a definate timeline that has paradoxical elements, the heart thou, good luck working that one out

The heart's story is infinitely simpler than the Reaver timeline. Janos is killed; heart is ripped out; heart is saved for 500 years by Mortanius until placed within Kain; Kain exists with it for a couple of millennia with it; Kain travels to the past and forward in time a couple of times, but what's key is his winds up at the spot where his younger self has had the heart placed within him, being saved by Mortanius for that moment (noted in point 3). Elder Kain gets his older version ripped out by Raziel, and it's placed back into Janos. That's it.

Pretty simple to follow.


Vampmaster, the point is the heart cannot be used in such a way by anyone, save maybe wraith Raziel, since time prevents it with beings and the very heart being fated to a predetermined destiny. If Wraith Raziel decided to use the heart to crush it through young Kain's chest and destroy both HoD's, maybe we might start to have a paradox... And maybe he might be able to do such a crazy thing. I think he'd have to summon even more will power than he did in William's Chapel to cause such a thing without a Reaver paradoxical moment, though, and perhaps it's still not possible. That's the only way I can see it ever happening, though. The existence of two objects, or beings, from different time periods aren't automatically paradoxes in Nosgoth, since time, for any being and thing otherwise, has already placed their fates within its structure. (The heart also has no will of its own, so there's that, too) Wraith Raziel and his wraith blade self are the/is the only inconstant to this.

Vampmaster
22nd Nov 2013, 11:55
All I meant was it's only a paradox if the two of the same object are trying to destroy each other and even then only the soul reaver creates a paradox powerful enough to derail history.

EDIT: Also, I thought the only reason no one had free will was because the Elder God had taken control of it and that the ability to change the past was a completely different thing.

There maybe a bit of overlap though. Like once you've created a time loop, you're sort of committed to the actions that created it and it requires a great deal of will just to alter the circumstances surrounding it. And of course undoing it is completely out of the question, because it's a fatal paradox.

I also believe that when Kain implies that time has a mind of it's own is, he's just using personification in his metaphors, not that it literally planned everything out.

Lord_Aevum
23rd Nov 2013, 00:00
I'm guessing that the "in three places" notion of the heart is now that this paradox of SR2's end happens, if elder Kain still goes to the future 100 years after BO1's era, where he meets Raziel at the cliffs overlooking Janos' ruined Arie?

That's precisely the point I was thinking of, yes.