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Monkeythumbz
18th Oct 2013, 16:43
Hey everyone, so you may have noticed the concept art of the Tyrant's head in today's blog post (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/tyrants-disputed-heirs-to-the-throne) about the Turelim.

No doubt you'll notice the pointed ears, yellow eyes and sharp fangs.

This does not, however, represent art we've created in response to your feedback about how we should make the Vampire classes more closely resemble their future devolved state as seen in LoK:SR1 (...although rest assured that this in active discussion and will be implemented).

Rather, this is pre-existing art from when we were concepting a number of different stages in the Tyrants’ devolution from fledgling to mature Vampire.

Anyway, just thought I'd let you know and save any confusion.

Anyway, hope you've been enjoying the lore posts!

TenebraeAeterna
18th Oct 2013, 16:46
Hey everyone, so you may have noticed the concept art of the Tyrant's head in today's blog post (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/tyrants-disputed-heirs-to-the-throne) about the Turelim.

No doubt you'll notice the pointed ears, yellow eyes and sharp fangs.

This does not, however, represent art we've created in response to your feedback about how we should make the Vampire classes more closely resemble their future devolved state as seen in LoK:SR1 (...although rest assured that this in active discussion and will be implemented).

Rather, this is pre-existing art from when we were concepting a number of different stages in the Tyrants’ devolution from fledgling to mature Vampire.

Anyway, just thought I'd let you know and save any confusion.

Anyway, hope you've been enjoying the lore posts!

I find the bold statement extremely interesting. :)

Monkeythumbz
18th Oct 2013, 16:56
Perhaps "a number of" is a bit misleading. I should've just said "different".

TheIrtar
18th Oct 2013, 17:02
You tease, you. :P

Well, I hope for a few more pleasant surprises from your art team, and hope this makes its way into production.

Monkeythumbz
18th Oct 2013, 17:06
I think it's safe to say that we have every intention of surpassing your expectations.

TenebraeAeterna
18th Oct 2013, 17:12
Looking forward to the continued teases.

lucinvampire
18th Oct 2013, 17:43
Awesome artwork and write up :D I like the Turelim...they are cool...even if they do need to evolve a little ;)

NickTsiou
18th Oct 2013, 18:02
This does not, however, represent art we've created in response to your feedback about how we should make the Vampire classes more closely resemble their future devolved state as seen in LoK:SR1 (...although rest assured that this in active discussion and will be implemented).

Rather, this is pre-existing art from when we were concepting a number of different stages in the Tyrants’ devolution from fledgling to mature Vampire.


Yeah right you've done your homework, we know and we believe you

I just hope to see an HD remake of all 5 LOK games soon, as I am not very possitive on this multiplayer insult.

Monkeythumbz
18th Oct 2013, 18:09
Yeah right you've done your homework, we know and we believe you

I just hope to see an HD remake of all 5 LOK games soon, as I am not very possitive on this multiplayer insult.

I'm sorry you take our game as an insult to what's come before in the series. Please understand that the lore and events of the original Legacy of Kain games very much do remain intact. Nosgoth merely adds to this rich tapestry and provides series fans a glimpse at a previously unexplored era from the land of Nosgoth’s timeline. We always felt that Nosgoth itself was the third central character to the franchise so far, alongside Kain and Raziel. It’s an amazing and hugely atmospheric world, with so much possibility for all kinds of games and stories. We wanted to emphasize this – we believe the world of Nosgoth has room for many more characters and genres than we’ve all seen and played so far.

TenebraeAeterna
18th Oct 2013, 18:27
I'm sorry you take our game as an insult to what's come before in the series. Please understand that the lore and events of the original Legacy of Kain games very much do remain intact. Nosgoth merely adds to this rich tapestry and provides series fans a glimpse at a previously unexplored era from the land of Nosgoth’s timeline. We always felt that Nosgoth itself was the third central character to the franchise so far, alongside Kain and Raziel. It’s an amazing and hugely atmospheric world, with so much possibility for all kinds of games and stories. We wanted to emphasize this – we believe the world of Nosgoth has room for many more characters and genres than we’ve all seen and played so far.

While it's quite pleasing to see you guys so eager to respond when presented with both positive and negative feedback, those types aren't going to say anything pleasant up until release...no matter what you say or do with the game. When you take a franchise on a completely unexpected course, you're going to have individuals amongst the community so butthurt that they refuse to give anything a chance up until it's been completed and, as expressed, take it as an insult that you dared to think differently.

With that said, I was thinking a bit further on things and wanted to express how important character customization is going to be for this game. While customization options are definitely the way to go when it comes to the cash shop, you're still going to have to have an in depth and intricate character customization feature by default in order to rope people into this. You should go as far as you can possibly go with the free based character customization system if you truly want to get people into this game. The more free based characters can identify with their character, the more likely they are to remain to play the game...which gives those who actually pay an abundance of players to play alongside.

Free based players don't provide income, but they provide bodies for those who pay into the game. Thus, the free based community is very valuable in its own right.

Granted, you're going to want to save some of the really good customization features for the shop...but character customization is going to be the snare for a game like this in combination with the gameplay, of course. No one is going to want to run around looking like a clone of another vampire, it gives them no sense of importance.

Truth be told, I was looking forward to a potential MMORPG based upon the LoK: SR series...but such a thing would have been a huge risk that I imagine wouldn't be so eagerly funded over something far more simplistic in nature. This leaves me to wonder if this isn't a testing game to see if there is any interest towards expanding to a true MMORPG based upon Nosgoth. A truly monumental endeavor to actually make correctly...but something I think could work.

With that said, and in regards to this game, the more lore and complexity you can implement into the game types...the better.

AlterRequiem
18th Oct 2013, 18:48
love it. now we dont have to have ear complaint threads!


Yeah right you've done your homework, we know and we believe you

I just hope to see an HD remake of all 5 LOK games soon, as I am not very possitive on this multiplayer insult.

and good lord, still with these guys.... i havent seen this kind of obsession about something you hate since nazi germany. and i mean that as respectfully as possible. theres no need to take a game personally, and even less need to continue bashing the creators on here until you get what you want

blueobelix
18th Oct 2013, 19:04
I'm sorry you take our game as an insult to what's come before in the series. Please understand that the lore and events of the original Legacy of Kain games very much do remain intact. Nosgoth merely adds to this rich tapestry and provides series fans a glimpse at a previously unexplored era from the land of Nosgoth’s timeline. We always felt that Nosgoth itself was the third central character to the franchise so far, alongside Kain and Raziel. It’s an amazing and hugely atmospheric world, with so much possibility for all kinds of games and stories. We wanted to emphasize this – we believe the world of Nosgoth has room for many more characters and genres than we’ve all seen and played so far.

I am glad finally you respond. Since now i talked with driber believing its you. What you have to understand is that you have to accept you didnt made a good choice by expanding this... not now, not in those moment. After 10 years of difficult waiting and nasty games released lately people expectes that hope kain promised at the end of the defiance game. Yes, people are open to those kind of games but this game realy dont fit, again, not now, when they were expecting a single player sequel to lok. Please PLEASE dont be surprised when you release this even after all the modifications after the beta people will hate it. People dont hate you or mmo' s but i think this simply doesnt fit in a game with such a powerfull story, gameplay and lore. Nosgoth is he third character and it always remained in the second place, as a secundary character because his was it's purpose and you simply cannot change it, nosgoth is what made lok fascinating but never as a primary character used in a pvp game. People are oversaturated with the assassin s creed multiplayer wich is basically the same thing as nosgoth... maybe even more.

Vampmaster
18th Oct 2013, 19:17
This does not, however, represent art we've created in response to your feedback about how we should make the Vampire classes more closely resemble their future devolved state as seen in LoK:SR1 (...although rest assured that this in active discussion and will be implemented).

Fair enough if the revised model isn't going to be exactly like that one. I will say though, I like the Turelim head from the blog a lot more than the others that have been shown so far. :) It's much closer to what I'd expect the Turelim to look like at an early point in their devolution.

TenebraeAeterna
18th Oct 2013, 19:24
I am glad finally you respond. Since now i talked with driber believing its you. What you have to understand is that you have to accept you didnt made a good choice by expanding this... not now, not in those moment. After 10 years of difficult waiting and nasty games released lately people expectes that hope kain promised at the end of the defiance game. Yes, people are open to those kind of games but this game realy dont fit, again, not now, when they were expecting a single player sequel to lok. Please PLEASE dont be surprised when you release this even after all the modifications after the beta people will hate it. People dont hate you or mmo' s but i think this simply doesnt fit in a game with such a powerfull story, gameplay and lore. Nosgoth is he third character and it always remained in the second place, as a secundary character because his was it's purpose and you simply cannot change it, nosgoth is what made lok fascinating but never as a primary character used in a pvp game. People are oversaturated with the assassin s creed multiplayer wich is basically the same thing as nosgoth... maybe even more.

I think this was a little extreme.

We know that there was a war between Vampires and Humans which resulted in complete and utter devastation, so to say that a game like this doesn't fit with the lore is false. Depending on how they make the core gameplay mode, this could fall completely in line with the lore and be presented within a way that makes it feel as though you're actually within a Vampire and Human war for dominion over Nosgoth.

With that said, I'll agree with you in the fact that it probably wasn't the best way to go. Personally, I would have expected the franchise to branch out into an MMORPG based upon the same events we're presented with here in the game. In my eyes, this would have worked much better and appealed to a far wider spectrum of people. However, to branch out that far after such a spans of time is quite a risky endeavor, and a huge investment. So, this may have been the safe bet...a method of testing the waters to see how the community dealt with branching out and how much interest was left in the franchise as a whole.

That doesn't, however, mean this game won't work and can't be a complete success. If they implement a rich character customization system for both paying and free based players combined with lucrative gameplay...this could prove to be quite a successful game even though it's not the game anyone expected or potentially wanted.

Personally, I'd be downright enthralled by the game if they implemented a core gameplay that was similar to an MMO version of Dynasty Warriors. Both sides get their armies of underlings, generals, etc...and go at it while the players themselves travel around and try to steer their army to victory through killing the opposition, taking out enemy players, objective points, etc. Can you imagine something like that? A massive true war where 5v5 fight amongst actual human grunts and fledgling vampires....

I'd enjoy that immensely.

Still, that's just one gameplay idea that could work...and from the looks of it, not one currently considered but a possibility amongst many, many, others.


Fair enough if the revised model isn't going to be exactly like that one. I will say though, I like the Turelim head from the blog a lot more than the others that have been shown so far. :) It's much closer to what I'd expect the Turelim to look like at an early point in their devolution.

Agreed,

That visage is a very intimidating face, that's for sure.

NickTsiou
18th Oct 2013, 19:24
Well first of all I apreciate the quick reply (I didn't even expect one)...

When I read about nosgoth I was exited even if it wasn't the classical LOK game; I believed I would see more LOK like vampires, you know 3-fingered ones, and not some skyrim-like-Turelims or this deformed-hylden-like-creature (Razielim), no grenade lunchers and palm trees. I really hope we are wrong and this game will be great (more for what I hope will come later basicaly) but I really doubt it.

For all those who strongly dissagree I can only say that they haven't probably played the other 5 games we did. Or if they did they probably can't understand them. The storyline, the music, the atmosphere and the bonding between the player and the main characters was simply amazing. And yes many of us feel dissapointed for being on hold 10 years now and an online multiplayer arena thing with nothing from the original legacy of kain universe comes out.

I am always open for change but this is not a welcomed one.

blueobelix
18th Oct 2013, 19:31
Well first of all I apreciate the quick reply (I didn't even expect one)...

When I read about nosgoth I was exited even if it wasn't the classical LOK game; I believed I would see more LOK like vampires, you know 3-fingered ones, and not some skyrim-like-Turelims or this deformed-hylden-like-creature (Razielim), no grenade lunchers and palm trees. I really hope we are wrong and this game will be great (more for what I hope will come later basicaly) but I really doubt it.

For all those who strongly dissagree I can only say that they haven't probably played the other 5 games we did. Or if they did they probably can't understand them. The storyline, the music, the atmosphere and the bonding between the player and the main characters was simply amazing. And yes many of us feel dissapointed for being on hold 10 years now and an online multiplayer arena thing with nothing from the original legacy of kain universe comes out.

I am always open for change but this is not a welcomed one.
Must agree with this one. We all are eagerly expecting nosgoh. I sincerely personally do expect this with all my posiive thinking, but alas, i am not so sure what it will come out and i kinda... preddict it wont be welcomed

TenebraeAeterna
18th Oct 2013, 19:38
Well first of all I apreciate the quick reply (I didn't even expect one)...

When I read about nosgoth I was exited even if it wasn't the classical LOK game; I believed I would see more LOK like vampires, you know 3-fingered ones, and not some skyrim-like-Turelims or this deformed-hylden-like-creature (Razielim), no grenade lunchers and palm trees. I really hope we are wrong and this game will be great (more for what I hope will come later basicaly) but I really doubt it.

For all those who strongly dissagree I can only say that they haven't probably played the other 5 games we did. Or if they did they probably can't understand them. The storyline, the music, the atmosphere and the bonding between the player and the main characters was simply amazing. And yes many of us feel dissapointed for being on hold 10 years now and an online multiplayer arena thing with nothing from the original legacy of kain universe comes out.

I am always open for change but this is not a welcomed one.

The Razielim would presumably be the first to devolve based upon the fact that Raziel himself was "evolving" more quickly. As for the three clawed talons, it's pretty logical that the vampires would evolve this feature throughout the course of their development from fledgling to adult. Every vampire starts out as a human with five fingers and five toes, it stands to reason that it'll take some time before they develop the signature claws we all know and love.

Considering the time of which this game is to take place, it all seems pretty logical to me. With that said, I think we're all hoping for an in depth pupation process that ultimately causes vampires to develop both those traits in combination with more familiar attributes of the Soul Reaver clans. I would presume that the Razielim will appear the most devulved throughout the game simply because they, through their sire, hold the most significant portion of Kain's essence and his curse.

NickTsiou
18th Oct 2013, 19:49
Please.....

So you find reasonable that Razielim developed wings but not the claws and toes right? where Raziel was fully developed when he emerged with his new gift... T-H-I-N-K before you post

So back to my point either you didn't play the same games or you didn't comprehended them well enough. Eitherway I am sure you will enjoy nosgoth and I honestly hope it sells well for many reasons. I wont bother you with my "antiquated" negativity and lack of vision any longer.

TenebraeAeterna
18th Oct 2013, 20:08
Please.....

So you find reasonable that Razielim developed wings but not the claws and toes right? where Raziel was fully developed when he emerged with his new gift... T-H-I-N-K before you post

So back to my point either you didn't play the same games or you didn't comprehended them well enough. Eitherway I am sure you will enjoy nosgoth and I honestly hope it sells well for many reasons. I wont bother you with my "antiquated" negativity and lack of vision any longer.

Sure, because this is the first game that tweaked something so that a fancy gameplay feature (Flight) could be implemented properly. You act as though the lack of talons, especially in light of the fact that they just hinted that they have considered a pupation process, is the end of the world. It's entirely likely that you'll develop the familiar talons throughout that process, if they go that path...which makes sense and drastically downplays your point. Then it's little more than a tweak so that a unique gameplay feature can be added...providing the wings before the claws.

With that said, you do bring up an interesting idea; that the Razielim could start out with vestigial wings and gradually develop true wings. Fledglings can glide, adults can fly.

I like that idea, and it would present a more fluid devolution process and gradual increase in power.

NickTsiou
18th Oct 2013, 21:08
wow hear another great idea, what if there are vampires with tenticles and three eyes or even better mermaid vampires with fairies to help them fight, lepricons with gold so they can buy upgrades. I know it's not LOK (or LOK related) but it does bring interesting features don't you agree?

I am not dogmatic but I am not into ruining some fundamental things so new ideas can be introduced, like it's the ONLY possible way to do it.

TendrilSavant
18th Oct 2013, 21:24
So you find reasonable that Razielim developed wings but not the claws and toes right? where Raziel was fully developed when he emerged with his new gift... T-H-I-N-K before you post

In my opinion the Claws and Toes seems to come from age and not devolution. Remember Vorador had claws like the anicient vampires and we are intruduced to him when he already is an ancient vampire. Also at the time we are introduced to Raziel, he is already a millennium old.

I think the devolution has to do with some link to Kain's soul that all his descendent would have. Break a chain in that link (Raziel) and the connection weakens.

Umbralim
18th Oct 2013, 21:55
Well first of all I apreciate the quick reply (I didn't even expect one)...

When I read about nosgoth I was exited even if it wasn't the classical LOK game; I believed I would see more LOK like vampires, you know 3-fingered ones, and not some skyrim-like-Turelims or this deformed-hylden-like-creature (Razielim), no grenade lunchers and palm trees. I really hope we are wrong and this game will be great (more for what I hope will come later basicaly) but I really doubt it.

For all those who strongly dissagree I can only say that they haven't probably played the other 5 games we did. Or if they did they probably can't understand them. The storyline, the music, the atmosphere and the bonding between the player and the main characters was simply amazing. And yes many of us feel dissapointed for being on hold 10 years now and an online multiplayer arena thing with nothing from the original legacy of kain universe comes out.

I am always open for change but this is not a welcomed one.

I think its best not to insinuate people who disagree with you simply can't understand, I for one am very much looking forward to this game and I loved all the LoKs before it.

and I still think its wrong for everyone to assume that multiplayer are incapable of having lores. its true most of them start humbly in the field but they build up in amazing ways look at LoL, Warhammer 4ok. those games are strictly multiplayer and they all have extremely complex lore

the days where games can only give lore through long cutscenes and the like, are a tad stale and bygone and there are way more intricate and unique ways to give out lore now. I think LoK of any game should be more than capable of adapting to those and this games a great chance to do just that. Not to mention its a live game meaning it will evolve as we play it consider other major live games and how vastly diffrent they are now than they were at their beginnings. How far this game goes is how far people are willing to take it. and not just as a way to get a singleplayer down the road I think Nosgoth can be great on its own.

Lord_Aevum
18th Oct 2013, 22:20
I have a little bit of a quibble with something mentioned in the new Tyrant description. It's not really something I can argue against with a solid fact or a quote, but just kind of a "what?" moment, not sure if I'm missing something...


Tyrants are only too eager to honour their Lieutenant-patriarch’s orders, particularly if it involves doing battle. After Kain’s disappearance, Turel’s was the loudest voice calling for the execution of the Razielim, and the Tyrants saw it as their sacred duty to carry out this purge.

Are we quite sure Turel of all people is likely to be the one who spearheaded the genocide of the Razielim?

I don't know if I'm really convinced of that, based on his personality. Yes, we know Turel is characterised as an ambitious jerk who quickly slips into Raziel's former position as second-in-command, and we know the Razielim are the last thing between him and uncontested domination of Nosgoth, but I'm still not sure of the whole genocidal maniac slant here. The loudest voice, advocating a holy war against Raziel's children? For a lieutenant, that's a very hands-on approach, even in Kain's absence. I felt the Razielim may have been wiped out by attrition, but I didn't get the impression that one of the brethren themselves would actively campaign to tear Raziel's clan apart. And if one of them had, I'd think it would be Zephon, if anyone.

I always felt there were hints of a mild fraternity between Turel and Raziel, more overt and noticeable than the relationships between other lieutenants. In SR1 deleted dialogue their tone towards each other is not very acrimonious, and Raziel is willing to spare Turel if he just gets out of the way (much unlike his attitude towards Dumah). In Defiance which is canon, and I know this is after much character development has taken place, but Raziel essentially seems to take pity on Turel and, again, they aren't aggressors. There's no suggestion of any really bad blood there, quite the contrary. From their interactions, I got a sense that Turel casting Raziel into the Abyss was really just a matter of duty and procedure for him, rather than anything spiteful.

Turel in Defiance seems a little shocked and maybe even appalled to have heard that Raziel butchered the other lieutenants. "I heard what you did to them." Well if we take this new info to be the case, that he gleefully championed the mass murder of the Razielim off his own bat, he now starts to comes across as something of a serious hypocrite in that Pit, doesn't he?

RainaAudron
18th Oct 2013, 22:27
I must say I agree with Aevum on this. It has been seen throughout all the games that Raziel and Turel have been pretty close.

In both canon meeting in Defiance and the cut meeting in SR1 Raziel gives Turel a chance to withdraw and hesitates to fight him.


"Let me pass Turel, I have enough of blood on my hands today, my quarrel lies with Kain."


"Why do you stay in this terrible place?" and
"What are you doing?" in response to Turel´s behaviour. I think both of these hint that Raziel would not kill Turel if it could be avoided.


"Dutiful and righteous, some habits die hard." This note about Turel as a Sarafan hints at that he would follow Kain´s orders to execute him but is also righteous so probably would not go to the extreme of personally trying to exterminate Razielim.

Agree that Zephon or Melchiah are much appropriate candidates for this, as they were both very jealous of Raziel and their dialogue demonstrates this:


"You are not his handsome Raziel anymore. His precious firt-born son turned betrayer."


"You are the last to die!"

Umbralim
18th Oct 2013, 22:51
I must say I agree with Aevum on this. It has been seen throughout all the games that Raziel and Turel have been pretty close.

In both canon meeting in Defiance and the cut meeting in SR1 Raziel gives Turel a chance to withdraw and hesitates to fight him.



and in response to Turel´s behaviour. I think both of these hint that Raziel would not kill Turel if it could be avoided.

This note about Turel as a Sarafan hints at that he would follow Kain´s orders to execute him but is also righteous so probably would not go to the extreme of personally trying to exterminate Razielim.

Agree that Zephon or Melchiah are much appropriate candidates for this, as they were both very jealous of Raziel and their dialogue demonstrates this:

I think Raziel meant Self Righteous when he refered to Turel in that manner not in an actual moral sense.

as in he's someone who believes his action are in the right virtue which is in line with the tyrants belief that ruling through power and fear is the natural way to rule and take pride in it.

RemovedQuasar
18th Oct 2013, 22:53
The Turelhim is my favourite clan! Very good job guys!! *__*
Probably i will always use the Tyrant to smash the little humans, muahahah!!

Remember what Turel said:

"Yes, i am changed. I have become a god. Greater than you ever were, Raziel. You were never a god. Greater even than Kain! " -

Reidbynature
18th Oct 2013, 23:18
I'm personally not confident in reading that much into Turel's personality or his personal relationship with Raziel during the reign of Kain's empire. I don't think Turel being the one to spearhead the persecution of the Razielim makes him automatically a genocidal maniac. He was a loyal son to Kain who quickly stepped into Raziel's position and helped execute him when it came to it. I don't see the persecution of the Razielim being out of character with that. As the now eldest son and first lieutenant under Kain it would probably be as much his duty as any other of Kain's sons, if not more so.

Also we don't know if Kain disappeared right away, soon after or a while after Raziel's execution. Kain could have oversaw the Razielim's persecution or if he was gone long or a while then Turel could have still been doing so out of a sense of duty to Kain. Alternatively even if Kain had been gone a long time and Turel was now seeking to consolidate his supremecy over his siblings then the Razielim would still be a viable target because they could be just as much a threat as any other clan.

Not to mention that if they all share Nupraptor's curse through Kain then they also are unbalanced just as they are devolved. I imagine that to begin with they may have had a very strong bond and sense of camaraderie between them like their Sarafan selves before, but likely they became more deranged in their behaviour as they devolved to the state we find them in SR1.

At least I think that could be a legitimate interpretation.

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 00:04
wow hear another great idea, what if there are vampires with tenticles and three eyes or even better mermaid vampires with fairies to help them fight, lepricons with gold so they can buy upgrades. I know it's not LOK (or LOK related) but it does bring interesting features don't you agree?

I am not dogmatic but I am not into ruining some fundamental things so new ideas can be introduced, like it's the ONLY possible way to do it.

Way to exaggerate beyond measure and clear into the realm of absurdity. No wonder you wanted to bow out of the discussion prematurely.


In my opinion the Claws and Toes seems to come from age and not devolution. Remember Vorador had claws like the anicient vampires and we are intruduced to him when he already is an ancient vampire. Also at the time we are introduced to Raziel, he is already a millennium old.

I think the devolution has to do with some link to Kain's soul that all his descendent would have. Break a chain in that link (Raziel) and the connection weakens.

Truth be told, Vorador presents some interesting information based upon his appearance; proving that there's a naturally occurring evolutionary process to vamprism. The talons upon the hands and feet seem to be a trait that all vampires develop over time, something that the Ancient Vampires themselves had.

This presents quite a curiosity, how "evolved" do vampires become and how much of the clans appearance in Soul Reaver is a result of the devolution process? Were it not for the curse inflicted upon Kain, would the clans have evolved upon similar paths but with less bestial characteristics?

Either way, the only thing we know for sure is that the talons evolve naturally regardless of the curse...one way or the other.


I have a little bit of a quibble with something mentioned in the new Tyrant description. It's not really something I can argue against with a solid fact or a quote, but just kind of a "what?" moment, not sure if I'm missing something...



Are we quite sure Turel of all people is likely to be the one who spearheaded the genocide of the Razielim?

I don't know if I'm really convinced of that, based on his personality. Yes, we know Turel is characterised as an ambitious jerk who quickly slips into Raziel's former position as second-in-command, and we know the Razielim are the last thing between him and uncontested domination of Nosgoth, but I'm still not sure of the whole genocidal maniac slant here. The loudest voice, advocating a holy war against Raziel's children? For a lieutenant, that's a very hands-on approach, even in Kain's absence. I felt the Razielim may have been wiped out by attrition, but I didn't get the impression that one of the brethren themselves would actively campaign to tear Raziel's clan apart. And if one of them had, I'd think it would be Zephon, if anyone.

I always felt there were hints of a mild fraternity between Turel and Raziel, more overt and noticeable than the relationships between other lieutenants. In SR1 deleted dialogue their tone towards each other is not very acrimonious, and Raziel is willing to spare Turel if he just gets out of the way (much unlike his attitude towards Dumah). In Defiance which is canon, and I know this is after much character development has taken place, but Raziel essentially seems to take pity on Turel and, again, they aren't aggressors. There's no suggestion of any really bad blood there, quite the contrary. From their interactions, I got a sense that Turel casting Raziel into the Abyss was really just a matter of duty and procedure for him, rather than anything spiteful.

Turel in Defiance seems a little shocked and maybe even appalled to have heard that Raziel butchered the other lieutenants. "I heard what you did to them." Well if we take this new info to be the case, that he gleefully championed the mass murder of the Razielim off his own bat, he now starts to comes across as something of a serious hypocrite in that Pit, doesn't he?

Agreed to an extent.

It's possible that Turel's respect for Raziel was easily outweighed by his adoration for Kain. When Kain vanished, he may have felt honor bound to complete the extermination of the fallen son's underlings under the belief that it's what Kain wanted. I can see a slightly disheartened Turel snapping the necks of Razielim and wondering why exactly his father chose such wrath...and yet still carrying out the genocide regardless of his potentially conflicted mindset towards it.

It's also possible that the Razielim themselves were considered too dangerous to keep around after the death of their sire. You have a clan that just had their sire torn asunder and tossed to his death, something that's likely to cause them a great deal of confusion and fear... Seeing as how they're evolving faster than the rest...fear of vengeance being carried out by his kin is a distinct possibility, and without any figurehead to keep them in check...eradication would appear to be the best option.

Basically, it's sketchy at best...but an explanation could be fleshed out.


I must say I agree with Aevum on this. It has been seen throughout all the games that Raziel and Turel have been pretty close.

In both canon meeting in Defiance and the cut meeting in SR1 Raziel gives Turel a chance to withdraw and hesitates to fight him.



and in response to Turel´s behaviour. I think both of these hint that Raziel would not kill Turel if it could be avoided.

This note about Turel as a Sarafan hints at that he would follow Kain´s orders to execute him but is also righteous so probably would not go to the extreme of personally trying to exterminate Razielim.

Agree that Zephon or Melchiah are much appropriate candidates for this, as they were both very jealous of Raziel and their dialogue demonstrates this:

Agreed that Zephon would have been a better choice suited to the task of eradication. I don't think Melchiah would have done it, he pities his own existence and wanted to die when we encounter him later on. I'm sure those inner demons were assaulting his psyche long before he became the massive husk of corpses we know and love.

Basically, I think he was too busy self loathing to have any desire to do anything spiteful towards anyone.

Umbralim
19th Oct 2013, 00:45
It's possible that Turel's respect for Raziel was easily outweighed by his adoration for Kain. When Kain vanished, he may have felt honor bound to complete the extermination of the fallen son's underlings under the belief that it's what Kain wanted. I can see a slightly disheartened Turel snapping the necks of Razielim and wondering why exactly his father chose such wrath...and yet still carrying out the genocide regardless of his potentially conflicted mindset towards it.

It's also possible that the Razielim themselves were considered too dangerous to keep around after the death of their sire. You have a clan that just had their sire torn asunder and tossed to his death, something that's likely to cause them a great deal of confusion and fear... Seeing as how they're evolving faster than the rest...fear of vengeance being carried out by his kin is a distinct possibility, and without any figurehead to keep them in check...eradication would appear to be the best option.



Just because Razielim may have held Turel with some respect doesn't mean that it was reciprocated Turel could of easily harbored some jealousy of Raziel especially considering that he is quite arrogant. For instance even in the pit he boasted that he was greater than Kain despite being nothing more than the grotesque pet/mouth-piece of the Hylden Lord and when he thought that Consuming Raziel would give him the strength to overcome the hylden possession he didn't hesitate to try and kill him.

I think Turel's primary trait is that he's able to convince himself that he must somehow be in the right, regardless of what he is doing. So when a chance to seize power arrived it was simple matter to delude himself that Razielim were heretics and needed to be wiped out rather than just wiping out a threat to his claim to the throne.

Paradoks_db
19th Oct 2013, 01:35
First of all - that picture looks much better than all other Turelim pictures shown thus far. I really think that every Turelim should have ears like that regardless of their age (both fledglings and adults had ears of the same size in SR).

About Turel going genocidal. I think it makes sense. He and Dumah were the most arrogant out of the whole pack. When confronting Raziel both claimed to be more powerful than Kain (bold words, since one was blind and trapped and the other was turned into Swiss cheese by humans). They were the ones who threw Raziel into the Abyss and I can see them eradicating Razielim in pursuit of power.

As for other clans. Melchiah and Rahab remained loyal to Kain. Their actions depend on whether Kain gave an explicit order to destroy Razielim or not.
Zephon was the one that has (at least partially) lost his mind by the time Raziel emerged. Everything he said however only shows that he considered Raziel's evolution a betrayal. I think that hardly anyone in the empire viewed it otherwise.

This however:

When the true extent of the Human threat became apparent, the Tyrants readily called a truce with the other Clans, including the remnants of the Razielim, and took their renowned place in the vanguard of the Vampire legions.
still makes absolutely no sense in my opinion.

TendrilSavant
19th Oct 2013, 02:05
When the true extent of the Human threat became apparent, the Tyrants readily called a truce with the other Clans, including the remnants of the Razielim, and took their renowned place in the vanguard of the Vampire legions.

I wouldn't say that makes no sense, Paradoks_db. Maybe it's missing some context, but it makes sense to me. Let's assume that when Kain leaves the Razielim are still being hunted, and maybe they've gotten good at hiding. Then the clans start infighting about who deserve which land and what not while the humans repopulate and gather their strength. Now the humans rebel and the vampires have a hard time handling them. Turel, as well as all Kain's lieutenants, would share Kain's ruthless strategic ideals (being under his leadership for a millenia). It's not hard to imagine that the lieutenants decided "let's trick the Razielim into fighting with us, then when we get the humans back in line we'll finish what we started."

This is all my assumptions though.

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 02:09
I wouldn't say that makes no sense, Paradoks_db. Maybe it's missing some context, but it makes sense to me. Let's assume that when Kain leaves the Razielim are still being hunted, and maybe they've gotten good at hiding. Then the clans start infighting about who deserve which land and what not while the humans repopulate and gather their strength. Now the humans rebel and the vampires have a hard time handling them. Turel, as well as all Kain's lieutenants, would share Kain's ruthless strategic ideals (being under his leadership for a millenia). It's not hard to imagine that the lieutenants decided "let's trick the Razielim into fighting with us, then when we get the humans back in line we'll finish what we started."

This is all my assumptions though.

Would the Razielim be so easily tricked though? I think it's something more along the lines of an uneasy alliance.

Paradoks_db
19th Oct 2013, 02:12
It's not hard to imagine that the lieutenants decided "let's trick the Razielim into fighting with us, then when we get the humans back in line we'll finish what we started."
Which could only work if Razielim's devolution started with their brains. They had absolutely nothing to gain from such alliance.

TendrilSavant
19th Oct 2013, 02:14
^Yeah, I was simplifying what might have happened... paragraph was getting a bit too wordy. The Razielim wouldn't be to eager to join either, but if they were also being hunted by humans they might think that allying themselves to the other clans might be the best way to survive for now.

Vampmaster
19th Oct 2013, 02:15
There's also no reason to assume that Turel shared the same fraternity with Raziels clan that he did with Raziel himself. His brother was already dead and any guilt he might have had would have been superceded by his belief that he was doing what Kain wanted. It might have simply been a case of "He's not around anymore, so I might as well claim his land" rather than "I hate him and want all trace of him gone". Even if that was the end result.

Paradoks_db
19th Oct 2013, 02:24
I've written about this on Eidos forums earlier and the only version that I find acceptable is that these Razielim are traitors to their clan. Razielim were marked for death by everyone. A conflict between humans and other clans was the best thing that could happen to them. What sort of argument did other clans have?
"Hey guys, we know that we were trying to slaughter every single one of you, but these humans here are causing us some serious trouble. Could you please help us with it? We'll get back to slaughtering you once you help us defeat them."

TendrilSavant
19th Oct 2013, 02:34
How about the argument that the Razielim need to feed? If they got scattered and their numbers dwindled, wouldn't it be possible that over time as the humans reclaimed their vampire hunter techniques that it would be hard to prey on humans? I'm sure if I was a starving vampire I would form an alliance hoping to get my strength up and then flee if things looked dire.

Reidbynature
19th Oct 2013, 02:38
It's what you call an uneasy alliance. There's no guarantee that the Razielim won't be hunted down again once the war is over, but it's their best and arguably only choice. The humans certainly aren't going to suffer them to live or even begin to entertain the idea of allying with them. If the humans win then the Razielim are as good as dead. They'd be practically forced to accept a deal with the other clans, even if just to make things easier while there's a war on. Otherwise both the other vampire clans and the humans will hunt them down.

Vampmaster
19th Oct 2013, 02:41
It's preferable to being killed on the spot. Gives them time to build their strength back up and come up with plan.

Paradoks_db
19th Oct 2013, 03:26
How about the argument that the Razielim need to feed? If they got scattered and their numbers dwindled, wouldn't it be possible that over time as the humans reclaimed their vampire hunter techniques that it would be hard to prey on humans? I'm sure if I was a starving vampire I would form an alliance hoping to get my strength up and then flee if things looked dire.
It's no better than blood farms being guarded by other vampires. And if it's just survival then they don't need to drink human blood. Murals show ancients feeding on pigs and Kain was even drinking from mutated spiders.


It's what you call an uneasy alliance. There's no guarantee that the Razielim won't be hunted down again once the war is over, but it's their best and arguably only choice.
No guarantee? It's certain that the clans would finish what they started. The choices were - be killed by humans or be killed by vampires. At least in the first case other clans would be punished as well.



The humans certainly aren't going to suffer them to live or even begin to entertain the idea of allying with them.
Well, it's not like it hasn't happened before.
"We hate the Sarafan, we humans. The things they do, it's not right, not natural. If your kind can bring them down, I'll help you, I will."

And (even if it's optional):

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9816/3hpm.png



If the humans win then the Razielim are as good as dead. They'd be practically forced to accept a deal with the other clans, even if just to make things easier while there's a war on. Otherwise both the other vampire clans and the humans will hunt them down.
The humans and vampires will hunt them down either way. The best solution would be to either flee as far as possible, use the war between their enemies to regroup or try to damage the army that would be gaining advantage. Allying with their persecutors doesn't improve their situation in any way.


It's preferable to being killed on the spot. Gives them time to build their strength back up and come up with plan.
Which is why they should avoid conflict when both humans and other clans are occupied with each other. They both have more urgent concerns than Razielim.

Gryregaest
19th Oct 2013, 03:42
I think the point is that the Razielim have as much to lose from a human uprising as anyone else in the empire. Alliances and conflicts between vampires are nothing new, even if the conflict waged against them is particularly extreme. The future of relations with the other clans does not look good, but still contains a fair amount of uncertainty. Whereas the future relations with humans are pretty damn certain; if they aren't dominated, they will do everything in their power to destroy every last vampire.

I agree that Turel's feelings, positive or negative, towards Raziel may not extend to the Razielim as a whole. These are vampires we're talking about here - they murder sentient beings when they feed. So it's not a stretch to assume that they do not put a great deal of value on the lives of individuals they consider to be beneath them, and this may well extend to lesser vampires. Even Raziel, though he was troubled by the loss of his own clan, and showed some remorse at the killing of his brothers, did not appear to have any particularly strong feelings about dispatching countless individuals of other clans.

I do like the design in the blog post, I look forward to posts about the other clans and humans.

TendrilSavant
19th Oct 2013, 03:58
Well, it's not like it hasn't happened before.
"We hate the Sarafan, we humans. The things they do, it's not right, not natural. If your kind can bring them down, I'll help you, I will."

This quote is taken out of context, right? I believe the person was talking about the Hylden lord's Serafan. Which we all know are allies to no one.

Anyway most of your responses seems to stem from your assumption that everyone on Nosgoth is well educated and only makes the right decisions...

Paradoks_db
19th Oct 2013, 04:22
This quote is taken out of context, right? I believe the person was talking about the Hylden lord's Serafan. Which we all know are allies to no one.
It's not taken out of context. It simply shows that some humans are willing to work with vampires under certain circumstances. The quote is about BO2 era Sarafan but at that point no one realised that the hylden were in charge.


Anyway most of your responses seems to stem from your assumption that everyone on Nosgoth is well educated and only makes the right decisions...
I'm basing my responses on assumption that Razielim had survival instinct.

But this is getting off-topic. I'll wait with further debate until the Razielim's history is revealed.

The_Hylden
19th Oct 2013, 04:40
NickTsiou, keep the insults to people's character and the devs in check, please. Everyone else, let's remember to play nice.




It doesn't make much sense for the Razielim to engage in this war. At least not as allies. They can fly. They should be watching from above in places where the battles are taking place, looking to see if they can pick off spoils, but not doing so with any alliance to any clan. They'd be all too happy to watch as the other clans fell after what they've been through. Let them suffer under the humans, if they're that weak. After all, it really shouldn't be such a threat that the clans are truly thinking any of them would be actually overrun by humans. I would think the only reason they've aligned to crush the humans is because of the inherent outrage that these pesky humans have dared to think they could be a match for their masters. These motivations would be more of a reasonable response, in my own opinion. Again, if we think logically of any reason why we'd actually see Razielim on the battlefield, it should be just to pick off spoils to feed now and then, but from a gaemplay perspective, you're playing the few and the proud of them in more numbers.

Indeed, thinking about this; there's little reason for the Razielim to wind up hunted and persecuted to extinction, given that they can fly out of there and hide in places no other vampire could get to. Except Kain. He, alone, would be the only one to reach such high places in batform. Other clans might have teleport abilities, perhaps, but it's uncertain if such an ability has ever been alluded works if a being has not already been to the spot they're teleporting to. Only when having to come down to feed, as noted, would they be vulnerable. And, of course, they're probably growing weaker by this hiding and inconsistent meals. Even if they are feasting on whatever animal life is out there, that's probably not the same as a healthy human, or being fed regularly by the blood farms. Indeed, Janos noted to the Hylden Lord that the curse specifically made them have to prey on humans, so I would take it that other sources would only do when they 're starving for blood, but it wouldn't be the same sustainable.


The Lieutenants have been depicted as using their own clans in battles with their brethren's clans out of everything from jealousy to simply out of boredom. I am sure they had/have (present tense for this game) reverence for a few they've sired, and maybe even a hint of respect for a few in the other clans, but mostly they are all tools to use, probably. As noted, whatever mutual understanding Turel and Raziel had, it sure doesn't need to extend to Raziel's clan on Turel's part. They're probably seen as nothing but vermin to all of the clans. Turel would look weak not being the voice to call for continuing their decimation while Kain was away.



That concept is infinitely better than the current in the game. Mesh that up and all will be love from the people, I am sure, heh.

LOFO1993
19th Oct 2013, 12:03
Please, PLEASE Psyonix, forget about the lore-breaking/mainstream/uninspired turelim model you've shown so far and make a new one based on that artwork. It will cost you NOTHING and will make things just BETTER of everyone.

Or at least make it an alternative skin free for everyone; it would make little sense to have two so different vampires at the same time, but I'd bet no-one would use the old one anyway; let the players choose for themselves, don't force on everyone a bad character for "marketing" reasons that make very little sense in a free game and zero in a game with such a unique context and setting.

Lord_Aevum
19th Oct 2013, 12:39
I can see Turel participating in the genocide for many of the reasons above, but for me it clearly doesn't match up to paint him as the fellow leading the charge. You have to tread carefully when you're doing new things with these characters. The first caveat I gave is I can't give any hard proof, but like many previous posts I think you can safely extrapolate certain sensibilities from those few lines of dialogue for each lieutenant, and the dialogue is our best clue. It telegraphs a lot.

The loudest voice on the planet calling for the extermination of the Razielim, allowing a "purge" to take place under his sanction, a holy war. This blog is essentially giving Soul Reaver's Raziel a new archvillain he doesn't know he has, pinning the real blame on Turel for all that relevant stuff in SR1, all those comments, the "wiped from this world like excrement from a boot", "what has become of my clan", "degenerate", "this act of genocide is unconscionable", "crimes", " your jealous hatred was the root of the wounds you inflicted". There's a leap from self-righteousness to mass murder in there which I don't think is natural for his established character. Nobody in SR1 seems to be at ease about the Razielim slaughter.

It can be given some more of the development cleverly suggested above and then work out no problem, like reluctance for Turel, or if Turel had a misunderstanding that Kain wished for the Razielim to be wiped out. That nuance doesn't exist in this text, though.

Nothing is telegraphed in the original games to suggest that Turel would be, or was, the ringleader in wiping out this clan. Defiance almost suggests he is still constantly obsessing over Raziel's execution in his mind, with the whole "shed the blood of your first-born upon the altar of the world" motif. Given the previous games, if I were told to give Raziel that second archenemy, who would be a more likely and natural candidate to fit into this "loudest voice" role, it would totally be Zephon. Every word of their dialogue is full of very personal contempt spat at each other, complete distrust, even the cut line "perhaps things have not changed as much as you'd like to believe. You were always weak, Zephon, and once again you will bend to my will". Much more plausible, then, that that spite would be made manifest in activities like this genocide.

An even better solution for me would be to discard this massive extreme of one person masterminding the Razielim extermination, and instead going with Dan Cabuco's more morally ambiguous notion, that all five clans were partially responsible for "gleefully tearing the Razielim apart", and all of the lieutenants carry a measure of the blame.

Monkeythumbz
19th Oct 2013, 13:57
Nothing is telegraphed in the original games to suggest that Turel would be, or was, the ringleader in wiping out this clan. Defiance almost suggests he is still constantly obsessing over Raziel's execution in his mind, with the whole "shed the blood of your first-born upon the altar of the world" motif. Given the previous games, if I were told to give Raziel that second archenemy, who would be a more likely and natural candidate to fit into this "loudest voice" role, it would totally be Zephon. Every word of their dialogue is full of very personal contempt spat at each other, complete distrust, even the cut line "perhaps things have not changed as much as you'd like to believe. You were always weak, Zephon, and once again you will bend to my will". Much more plausible, then, that that spite would be made manifest in activities like this genocide.

We agree. Don't forget this from the previous blog:

"With the Razielim now bereft of a leader, the other Clans fell upon their territory – some wanting to seek glory by mirroring their Emperor’s actions, others to expand their influence by seizing precious land and resources, and a few simply to settle pernicious old scores. "

Turel is the bit in bold. Who do you think the other descriptions relate to? ;)

RainaAudron
19th Oct 2013, 14:02
I still think Zephon fits this much better (that bend to my will part is one of my favourites which got cut :D ). Agreed with Aevum here, there was so much tension and hate between Zephon and Raziel in the dialogue, yet I do not see any of that between Turel and Raziel.

Vampmaster
19th Oct 2013, 14:12
I can see Turel participating in the genocide for many of the reasons above, but for me it clearly doesn't match up to paint him as the fellow leading the charge. You have to tread carefully when you're doing new things with these characters. The first caveat I gave is I can't give any hard proof, but like many previous posts I think you can safely extrapolate certain sensibilities from those few lines of dialogue for each lieutenant, and the dialogue is our best clue. It telegraphs a lot.

The loudest voice on the planet calling for the extermination of the Razielim, allowing a "purge" to take place under his sanction, a holy war. This blog is essentially giving Soul Reaver's Raziel a new archvillain he doesn't know he has, pinning the real blame on Turel for all that relevant stuff in SR1, all those comments, the "wiped from this world like excrement from a boot", "what has become of my clan", "degenerate", "this act of genocide is unconscionable", "crimes", " your jealous hatred was the root of the wounds you inflicted". There's a leap from self-righteousness to mass murder in there which I don't think is natural for his established character. Nobody in SR1 seems to be at ease about the Razielim slaughter.

It can be given some more of the development cleverly suggested above and then work out no problem, like reluctance for Turel, or if Turel had a misunderstanding that Kain wished for the Razielim to be wiped out. That nuance doesn't exist in this text, though.

Nothing is telegraphed in the original games to suggest that Turel would be, or was, the ringleader in wiping out this clan. Defiance almost suggests he is still constantly obsessing over Raziel's execution in his mind, with the whole "shed the blood of your first-born upon the altar of the world" motif. Given the previous games, if I were told to give Raziel that second archenemy, who would be a more likely and natural candidate to fit into this "loudest voice" role, it would totally be Zephon. Every word of their dialogue is full of very personal contempt spat at each other, complete distrust, even the cut line "perhaps things have not changed as much as you'd like to believe. You were always weak, Zephon, and once again you will bend to my will". Much more plausible, then, that that spite would be made manifest in activities like this genocide.

An even better solution for me would be to discard this massive extreme of one person masterminding the Razielim extermination, and instead going with Dan Cabuco's more morally ambiguous notion, that all five clans were partially responsible for "gleefully tearing the Razielim apart", and all of the lieutenants carry a measure of the blame.

Having his victims killed in the same manor as Raziel is more of a tradition he stuck with than an act of remorse. If he cared for his brother that much, he certainly wouldn't have tried to kill Raziel a second time just for a bit of blood.

Most of what was discussed between Raziel and Kain was just assumption on Raziels part and the rest was Kain playing mind games with him.

The three reasons for Turel wanting the Razielim dead were firstly that he was "so dutiful and righteous, even as a vampire", secondly that he would have wanted the glory and the spoils, and thirdly, that Raziel wasn't around anymore to miss them.

Actually, a fourth reason could be that they were a rogue faction and a possible threat to the empire, at least at the beginning before all the clans began their infighting.

Lord_Aevum
19th Oct 2013, 14:55
We agree. Don't forget this from the previous blog:

"With the Razielim now bereft of a leader, the other Clans fell upon their territory – some wanting to seek glory by mirroring their Emperor’s actions, others to expand their influence by seizing precious land and resources, and a few simply to settle pernicious old scores. "

Turel is the bit in bold. Who do you think the other descriptions relate to? ;)

That acquiesces some of my concerns, but if Turel has the "loudest voice" purely because he's motivated by a sense of zealous loyalty to Kain, looking for glory, I think that Rahab would still automatically be louder than him on that particular score.

Turel was repeatedly established with aspirations and ambitions of rising above Kain, and believed he was finally a god "greater even than Kain" when he became Hash'ak'gik. Rahab came across as the really religiously-devoted one to me, who would launch purges and holy wars. He was the one telling people to "mind their blasphemous tongue" and proclaiming Kain their saviour. There is a touch of disdain in his conversation with Raziel, and I could see him championing the Razielim slaughter easily enough.

The Smokestack is far from Raziel's territory (further than Rahabim, Melchahim, Zephonim AND Dumahim lands) and there are no Turelim near or within Raziel's lands in Soul Reaver. Equally, jealousy is less of a motivation for Turel to attack Raziel's descendants, because he's already the second-in-command. I know it's partially a matter of interpretation, but I just don't see justification in the idea that Turel was the most pro-genocide lieutenant of all five.


The three reasons for Turel wanting the Razielim dead were

Again, let me make good and clear, I'm emphatically NOT at all suggesting Turel has no reason to want the Razielim dead, I'm just saying he does not seem the likely candidate for the person who wants the Razielim dead more than anybody else in the entire world. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

Monkeythumbz
19th Oct 2013, 15:11
By saying that Turel had the loudest voice, all we meant to imply was that he was the most eager to take up a position of leadership on the issue. All the Clans have their motivations to attack the Razielim - some far more spiteful than others (and we're very much looking forward to revealing all the various different motivations) - and are more or less equally eager to do so, however for Turel he feels it's his duty as heir apparent.

Turel is following what he believes what be his lord and master's wishes following Kain's disappearance in the Chronoplast. Turel considers what he thinks to be finishing off his masters work to be a noble duty, and since "Kain [was] deified", for Clan Turelim this perceived honourable task takes on holy connotations. Additionally, Turel is all about claiming dominance and by taking a leading position on the matter of the final solution to the Razileim problem, his intention is to establish a commanding position over the other Vampire Clans and, by extension, Nosgoth.

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 15:14
Which is why they should avoid conflict when both humans and other clans are occupied with each other. They both have more urgent concerns than Razielim.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Razielim were a very sophisticated and intelligent bunch no? It's entirely likely that the other clans remain ignorant to the exact number of Razielim after the purge, so perhaps they're using this as a ruse to bolster their clan. If their remaining number is a mystery, they don't have to provide their full support within the war and can work behind the scenes preparing themselves for humanity's eventual defeat...and then enact vengeance with newly bolstered forces.


I think the point is that the Razielim have as much to lose from a human uprising as anyone else in the empire. Alliances and conflicts between vampires are nothing new, even if the conflict waged against them is particularly extreme. The future of relations with the other clans does not look good, but still contains a fair amount of uncertainty. Whereas the future relations with humans are pretty damn certain; if they aren't dominated, they will do everything in their power to destroy every last vampire.

I agree that Turel's feelings, positive or negative, towards Raziel may not extend to the Razielim as a whole. These are vampires we're talking about here - they murder sentient beings when they feed. So it's not a stretch to assume that they do not put a great deal of value on the lives of individuals they consider to be beneath them, and this may well extend to lesser vampires. Even Raziel, though he was troubled by the loss of his own clan, and showed some remorse at the killing of his brothers, did not appear to have any particularly strong feelings about dispatching countless individuals of other clans.

I do like the design in the blog post, I look forward to posts about the other clans and humans.

Agreed,

Raziel and his brothers don't seem to place much value upon vampires whom they, themselves, haven't sired or at least part of their lineage. This tends to follow suit with stereotypical vampire lore.


Snip

I always play nice.

With that said, I agree with much of what you have stated. I can easily see the Razielim having a sense of pride towards humanity believing that they could dare pose a threat to the vampiric race. I do not, however, believe that would be their guiding force behind the ordeal and more so a ruse presented as an excuse for why they have chosen to give into the demand to band with the clans who have been exterminating them.

While they may use this as an explanation for their compliance and present the face of deception while in battle...I'd believe it all a cleverly orchestrated plan to bolster their brood so that when humanity ultimately fell, they would come out on top. I think it's far more likely that they have been staving off their ravenous hunger and harvesting humans not to feed upon, but to breed within those remote locations you've spoken of. Essentially, building a Razielim utopia in which the other clans couldn't reach and wait for a day when their forces are strong enough to soar across the skies and leave nothing in their wake.

We know they could accomplish this, and with the clans incapable of being sure as to just how many still exist...this would be easy to accomplish amongst such a vast war. I can easily see them doing something like this, cleverly stealing away human cattle to place upon an elevated mountain which no human could descend without death...forcing them to breed and bolster both their numbers and provide an endless source of sustenance. With this process, they would ultimately come out on top, especially in a world dying due to vampiric overpopulation within the future after the resulting war.

They would have prime cattle to feed upon, bolster and regulate their forces, grow strong off of...and then destroy the other clans when they're weak and starving.


Snip

I've got an idea that I think will support everything and provide an adequate explanation that everyone can agree with.

Zephon instigated the genocide by manipulating Turel into believing it was the thing he had to do...be it to continue along the path of what Kain desired or to assert his new found position as king. All of this is, of course, a cleverly orchestrated plot to assert his own dominance after he manipulates Turel into destroying the entire Razielim clan and weakening the rest.

We might come to find that Zephon is ultimately the reason that Dumah falls to the humans. Either way, this all follows suit with Zephon's personality AND can be easily worked into a reason as to why Turel would spearhead this genocide by giving him further incentive to do so.

All he needs is a little push to finish what his "father" started...and Zephon may have been that push.


We agree. Don't forget this from the previous blog:

"With the Razielim now bereft of a leader, the other Clans fell upon their territory – some wanting to seek glory by mirroring their Emperor’s actions, others to expand their influence by seizing precious land and resources, and a few simply to settle pernicious old scores. "

Turel is the bit in bold. Who do you think the other descriptions relate to? ;)

I agree with this, but make Zephon the whispering voice in Turel's ear that finalized his decision. There's a chance that Turel possessed some hesitation towards the eradication of the Razielim. They were a broken clan who's sire was destroyed for reasons that none of them truly understood beyond it being Kain's will.

It's possible that Turel's first choice was to take the Razielim under his metaphorical wing as a means to atone for any guilt he potentially harbored over tossing his brother into the abyss, or simply out of respect for them being so powerful. It's very likely that the confused, broken, and fearful Razielim would accepted this act of mercy simply to avoid eradication...even if they would have ultimately sought out revenge within the future. However, this would have made Turel's clan far more powerful through the incorporation of the Razielim...unstoppable.

Zephon can't have that, now can he? Not if he's to take up the mantle of king after Kain's disappearance. We all know that Zephon is the master manipulator who works in the shadows, the mentality of a spider who seeks the manipulation of his prey before the kill. What better way than to use Turel's pride and honor against him?

"You have to eradicate them, if you expect the other clans to accept your strength brother."
"It's what Kain would have wanted, we are honor bound to carry out his will."
"One day they will turn on you, take their vengeance upon us all for what was done to Raziel."

I'm paraphrasing of course, but Zephon would use those types of manipulations in order to push Turel into committing the genocide against the Razielim. Now he's effectively ensured the complete annihilation of the most significant threat (the Razielim) and weakened the other (the Turelim). This leaves only the Dumahim, Rahabim, and Melchahim.

If it's implemented that Zephon is responsible for Dumah's defeat at the hands of the humans...then there's another threat taken down through his manipulations, ensuring the death of the sire and chaos amongst that particular clan. Now we're left with only the Rahabim and Melchahim.

The Rahabim are slowly becoming a completely aquatic clan and likely to not dispute Zephon's dominion of the surface world and the Melchahim are pitiful at best...easily dispatched and their sire little more than a self loathing recluse too busy stitching himself new skins to worry about taking over.

Hail to the king baby.

I think this fits perfectly, as it places blame upon the clan who's most likely to have carried out the act due to their own strength...but gives light to the fact that the true blame goes to the one who's most likely to have instigated the genocide.

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 15:21
I hit the character limit by including those quotes, sorry about the snips folks.

Monkeythumbz
19th Oct 2013, 15:35
We share incredibly similar views on Zephon, TenebraeAeterna, however Zephon has his own inimical reasons to wipe out the Razielim, which we'll be revealing in a future update.

Turel, meanwhile, is no reluctant tyrant and would welcome the opportunity for a demonstration of power with little encouragement, especially if in his arrogance he thought he would only ever come out on top.


The three reasons for Turel wanting the Razielim dead were firstly that he was "so dutiful and righteous, even as a vampire", secondly that he would have wanted the glory and the spoils, and thirdly, that Raziel wasn't around anymore to miss them.

Actually, a fourth reason could be that they were a rogue faction and a possible threat to the empire, at least at the beginning before all the clans began their infighting.
Precisely.

As for Dumah, and all that befalls him… that's a story for another time. :)

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 15:58
We share incredibly similar views on Zephon, TenebraeAeterna, however Zephon has his own inimical reasons to wipe out the Razielim, which we'll be revealing in a future update.

Turel, meanwhile, is no reluctant tyrant and would welcome the opportunity for a demonstration of power with little encouragement, especially if in his arrogance he thought he would only ever come out on top.


Precisely.

As for Dumah, and all that befalls him… that's a story for another time. :)

The Zephonim are personal favorite due to their association with spiders and the manipulative nature of their sire. Truth be told, while I adored Zephon, his clan's appearance was far more preferable in my eyes. I truly hope that you guys implement the Zephonim as an assassin like class with superior climbing capabilities and a DOT melee attack...

Turn them into that sadistic assassin-like class, a terror agent.

Reidbynature
19th Oct 2013, 16:16
*snip*

For all we know in Kain's absence Turel could willing to rule over all vampires, even the Razielim as their lord after a war with humans. Especially if he is convinced the virtually leaderless (officially) Razielim are a powerful enough tool and could help him establish his power base after a war with the humans because he would likely then move onto reasserting his power over the other clans (or at least try to). There's arguably good reason to keep the Razielim around under his control.

The humans on the other hand are trying to kill all vampires. I find it highly unlikely that they would entertain allying with the Razielim. The Sarafan example you gave is from BO2 where they were as equally oppressive to humans and secretly controlled by Hylden. That is not a comparable situation.

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 16:22
For all we know in Kain's absence Turel could willing to rule over all vampires, even the Razielim as their lord after a war with humans. Especially if he is convinced the virtually leaderless (officially) Razielim are a powerful enough tool and could help him establish his power base after a war with the humans because he would likely then move onto reasserting his power over the other clans (or at least try to). There's arguably good reason to keep the Razielim around under his control.

I agree with you,

This is likely the case, but it's also extremely likely that the Razielim would have ultimately sought vengeance against the clans...and Zephon would be quick to remind him of this. Ultimately, no matter how you look at it, Turel initiating the genocide makes sense...but I believe it's a much stronger story if Zephon was behind the wheel, so to speak.

Vampmaster
19th Oct 2013, 16:38
We share incredibly similar views on Zephon, TenebraeAeterna, however Zephon has his own inimical reasons to wipe out the Razielim, which we'll be revealing in a future update.

Turel, meanwhile, is no reluctant tyrant and would welcome the opportunity for a demonstration of power with little encouragement, especially if in his arrogance he thought he would only ever come out on top.


Precisely.

As for Dumah, and all that befalls him… that's a story for another time. :)

I think Dumah would be the one most eager to challenge Turel's claim to the throne, since he's the best warrior and next in line after him. He'd be too concerned with fighting the Turelim to properly deal with the humans. Zephon would be playing everyone against each other, waiting to see who came out on top. The Rahabim would be able to focus all their attention on the humans, since no other clan would want territory they couldn't survive in and the Melchiahim would just be scavenging the human corpses from the war while waiting for Kain to come back.

Reidbynature
19th Oct 2013, 16:44
Also forgot Paradoks Raziel SR1 example. Raziel was no longer a vampire and not identifiable as one. I doubt it would be as easy to convince a vampire hunter you're benevolent (especially when you're likely not to be) if you're a vampire.

Umbralim
19th Oct 2013, 16:47
Again, let me make good and clear, I'm emphatically NOT at all suggesting Turel has no reason to want the Razielim dead, I'm just saying he does not seem the likely candidate for the person who wants the Razielim dead more than anybody else in the entire world. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.


True, but he did clearly wanna be in charge as you said before, and this crusade was probably the best way he saw to take the reins. Being louder than everyone else tends to be the way to take control, regardless of how much he really cared about wiping out the Razielim.

Reidbynature
19th Oct 2013, 16:51
I agree with you,

This is likely the case, but it's also extremely likely that the Razielim would have ultimately sought vengeance against the clans...and Zephon would be quick to remind him of this. Ultimately, no matter how you look at it, Turel initiating the genocide makes sense...but I believe it's a much stronger story if Zephon was behind the wheel, so to speak.

Can't say I really see it that way. The Razielim may be powerful and useful to the clans, but they would likely still be in a weakened state after being persecuted by other clans and then allying with them in a human vs vampire war and possibly even just grateful to be back in the clan society (though whether they'd be treated as pariah's without Raziel is yet to be seen). I doubt they'd have the capabilities to overthrow Turel, especially with the other clans to contend with in that scenario. As far as Zephon goes we've yet to see what his role exactly is so I'd maybe refrain from inferring too much about him with no real evidence.

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 17:36
Can't say I really see it that way. The Razielim may be powerful and useful to the clans, but they would likely still be in a weakened state after being persecuted by other clans and then allying with them in a human vs vampire war and possibly even just grateful to be back in the clan society (though whether they'd be treated as pariah's without Raziel is yet to be seen). I doubt they'd have the capabilities to overthrow Turel, especially with the other clans to contend with in that scenario. As far as Zephon goes we've yet to see what his role exactly is so I'd maybe refrain from inferring too much about him with no real evidence.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than sure that the Razielim would submit themselves to Turel were he to extend such an offer. I just don't believe that their obedience would be anything but a clever ruse to ensure their safety until the day that they can take vengeance.

From the wiki:


In Kain's empire prior to their devolution, the Razielim were noted to have taken roles described as: "Artisans, Philosophers, Spellbinders, Tacticians..., Blood Bankers, and manipulators." and it was further elaborated that the "Razielim would use their spellcraft to spy on other clans, and manipulate them with a wry hand".[21][22]

It would be extremely difficult for Turel to ensure that this wouldn't happen. It's obvious that they're an extremely intelligent clan, and with the way that vampirism is transmitted...it wouldn't be difficult for them to amass their forces in secret. Ultimately, Turel would be relying upon the fear and appreciation of a stronger clan to obey him after he had killed their sire. We know that the vampires don't seem to possess much loyalty amongst one another beyond their own "family" ties...so appreciation for sparing them after he had tossed their father into the Abyss is highly unlikely. Fear is very likely, but a thirst for vengence coupled with an intelligent clan would likely result in the situation I express above...the Razielim working in secret to regain the power that they had lost and then strike back.

It's actually the reason I feel they joined the war, using the ruse of fear, starvation, and disgust with the human defiance as a mask to wear as they work towards that ultimate goal. It would be easy for them to steal away humans to some secret mountain top sanctuary so that they can use them as a breeding stock of renewable sustenance and bodies to rejuvenate the weakened clan while the chaos of the war enshrouds these activities. Given an intelligent plan, enough human stock, and time...they become the dominant clan again after the war, and can decimate the others.

I'm getting a little off subject though.

Turel might actually believe that the Razielim would obey him out of fear and admiration towards sparing them, sheltering them, taking them under his metaphorical wing. Zephon wouldn't though, and he would sew the seeds of doubt into Turel's mind even if he DID believe that the Razielim would obey simply because the combined might of those two clans would challenge his own reign. It's not only likely that the Razielim would take revenge, it's the most likely outcome given an extended timeline...and that's all Zephon needs to put into Turel's mind to get the job done.

That and it's pretty obvious that the Razielim would be treated as second citizens at the very least...if not worthless sacks of flesh to be kicked around at anyone's whim above only humans themselves.

Reidbynature
19th Oct 2013, 18:15
They could possibly have a hidden agenda themselves (and probably lots of reasons to do so), but I don't see them in any real position to enact on any such plan until a long time after the war with the humans. It's quite possible that their ultimate fate fell upon them before they could have any chance to see it through given the situation by the time Raziel awakes in SR1.

Though personally I hope that their ultimate fate that was yet to be revealed in the main games doesn't simply turn out to be a chronicling of their demise. Even if it were just a handful of survivors I'd like to see them revisited in a story driven LoK.

Vampmaster
19th Oct 2013, 19:01
Don't get me wrong, I'm more than sure that the Razielim would submit themselves to Turel were he to extend such an offer. I just don't believe that their obedience would be anything but a clever ruse to ensure their safety until the day that they can take vengeance.

LOL. That's the same stratagy Raziel used to escape from squiddy! "Submission is not always what it seems"


It's actually the reason I feel they joined the war, using the ruse of fear, starvation, and disgust with the human defiance as a mask to wear as they work towards that ultimate goal. It would be easy for them to steal away humans to some secret mountain top sanctuary so that they can use them as a breeding stock of renewable sustenance and bodies to rejuvenate the weakened clan while the chaos of the war enshrouds these activities.

You mean like Kain's mountain retreat? I was hoping we'd get to see that place. :)

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 19:16
They could possibly have a hidden agenda themselves (and probably lots of reasons to do so), but I don't see them in any real position to enact on any such plan until a long time after the war with the humans. It's quite possible that their ultimate fate fell upon them before they could have any chance to see it through given the situation by the time Raziel awakes in SR1.

Though personally I hope that their ultimate fate that was yet to be revealed in the main games doesn't simply turn out to be a chronicling of their demise. Even if it were just a handful of survivors I'd like to see them revisited in a story driven LoK.

I don't think that it would take as long as you believe, especially when they have such a chaotic war to enshroud their potential schemes. We know that vampires can be made from corpses; Kain and his children often preforming this method of siring. Unless the Razielim have been brought to the brink of extinction, where there's only a dozen or so left, it wouldn't be difficult for them to rejuvenate their clan during an ordeal where bodies are going to be of great abundance.

As I had previously expressed, were they to be stealing away humans (both living and dead) throughout the chaos and taking them to some remote location amongst the mountains...the other clans are going to be hard pressed to discover this little plot before it's too late. Think of it like a virus, one becomes two which become four which becomes eight and within a week you got yourself thousands of Razielim fledglings. It might take quite some time in a mortal's understanding of such, but to an immortal...they may be at enough strength by the end of the war if they were to play their cards right.

Even if they're not, they could just as easily escape near the end of the war when the chaos has reached its peak before the other clans knew what became of them...and continue the plot undisturbed with their renewable stock of human slaves. Perhaps they would even treat these humans well, feeding off them yet never killing with the promise of immortality rather than death. They could easily start a vampire cult..."sparing" these humans the vicious slaughter their brethren would surely bestow.

They're clever, and out of all the clans I would assume that they would have the best possible plan for their future even without their sire.

Edit:

Also, I'm not saying that they would treat the humans well...just that it's a possible course of action to ensure human compliance. They could treat them like cattle and rule with an iron fist over this livestock too, using psychological torture to keep them in check.

"You want to defy us, how well can you fly?"

I'm just saying that establishing this type of little sanctuary wouldn't be difficult no matter how they treated the humans they stole away.

Derakus
19th Oct 2013, 19:40
They're clever, and out of all the clans I would assume that they would have the best possible plan for their future even without their sire.

Yet there are no trace of them after 500 years. Pro-skills in hiding? Or just extinct?

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 19:46
Yet there are no trace of them after 500 years. Pro-skills in hiding? Or just extinct?

If you had a sanctuary high up within the mountains and a perpetual source of humans to feed upon, why would you bother returning to the world below unless you were ready to exterminate the remaining clans? Let them weaken through starvation while you grow fat and healthy upon the fruits of your labor, and then exterminate them like vermin.

We may not see them because they may have not chosen to set their foot down upon the other clans just yet. Like I said before, the mind of a mortal wouldn't be the same as an immortal...patience is a virtue developed through the wisdom of age. If you had all the time in the world, why risk a hasty attack when you can ensure victory?

Denam_Pavel
20th Oct 2013, 00:54
I don't mind Turel being the one going after the Razielim. He's the dutiful son, if Kain declared them enemy, then that should be enough. Especially since as SR1's background noted, they have precious little else to pre-occupy themselves with. And I'm not sure if Raziel is that great a character witness. Yeah he had much better opinion of Turel then Zephon or others but think of how he harps on about vampire nobility in SR1 or Sarafan goodness in SR2 while demonising Kain then turning around and demonising the Sarafan after going after Janos. Raziel is a judgy little wraith. Turel and Raziel were probably just two big old bullies together and Raziel looks back at those days with rosetinted glasses.

TenebraeAeterna
20th Oct 2013, 02:59
I don't mind Turel being the one going after the Razielim. He's the dutiful son, if Kain declared them enemy, then that should be enough. Especially since as SR1's background noted, they have precious little else to pre-occupy themselves with. And I'm not sure if Raziel is that great a character witness. Yeah he had much better opinion of Turel then Zephon or others but think of how he harps on about vampire nobility in SR1 or Sarafan goodness in SR2 while demonising Kain then turning around and demonising the Sarafan after going after Janos. Raziel is a judgy little wraith. Turel and Raziel were probably just two big old bullies together and Raziel looks back at those days with rosetinted glasses.

I can accept that Turel is simply a dutiful son enacting what his sire wished, and even simply a tyrant seeking power. I just think that incorporating Zephon as the whispering instigator towards these events forms a more solid foundation. My reasoning for this is pretty simple, I just don't believe that Turel is all that intelligent...

What I mean to say is that I believe he would have been prideful enough to spare the Razielim and seek to use them as a tool to his own ends, using his own clan and the Razielim to fully assert dominance over the other clans. He's the current successor to Kain, who would dare challenge his position, who would dare dispute his position in line for the crown? Surely even the Razielim would understand that what had transpired was simply Kain's will.

This is what I believe Turel would think, and why I feel he would be potentially inclined to try incorporating the Razielim without Zephon's manipulative whispers playing out within his ear. Kain has left leaving the crown to him, thus he no longer has to follow his father's whim when it comes to any potential desire to eradicate the Razielim. There's no forsaking honor when you have inherited the crown and decide another option more prudent over the former kings potential decision. You have the right to show "mercy" and the right to take any course you so choose...such is what it means to be king.

This, of course, doesn't mean that I couldn't accept Turel deciding to eradicate the Razielim without Zephon's influential advice...just that I feel it's a far better foundation that makes sense for everyone involved no matter how you look at it. In my personal opinion, it's the best possible course for them to take...but not the only one. What's implied to be their path still works perfectly fine...I just don't see it as the most likely course.

Others apparently don't either...but I can see the points of both sides, I think.

Also, I want to edit my statement regarding Turel not being intelligent. What I mean to say is that I don't believe Turel to be wise in understand the repercussions of his actions down the road, capable of predicting the potential disasters he might cause himself through these actions like taking the Razielim under his wing. I think he's likely an extremely intelligent military tactician who knows how to work the battlefield...but I think he's a bit deluded into thinking that people will fall in line simply through a display of power, his birthright, so on and so forth. This is why I think Zephon's influence would provide a stronger foundation by setting those seeds of doubt into his mind, being a far more intelligent individual...Zephon would be quick to tell him otherwise because it suits Zephon's own desires. It's also very true...even if it's ultimately a word of advice not given to actually save Turel.

Derakus
20th Oct 2013, 04:19
If you had a sanctuary high up within the mountains and a perpetual source of humans to feed upon, why would you bother returning to the world below unless you were ready to exterminate the remaining clans? Let them weaken through starvation while you grow fat and healthy upon the fruits of your labor, and then exterminate them like vermin.

We may not see them because they may have not chosen to set their foot down upon the other clans just yet. Like I said before, the mind of a mortal wouldn't be the same as an immortal...patience is a virtue developed through the wisdom of age. If you had all the time in the world, why risk a hasty attack when you can ensure victory?

Because Raziel returned and solved their problems by beheading other clans? Why wont Razielims show up at some stage even just out of curiosity to chek if someone singlehandedly waging war vs all other clans and winning?

Also - how funny you speak about "mind of immortal", when its clear that Raziel is not smart and prone to impulsivness (and he is 1000 years old as vampire) blindly searching for revenge, killing everything that stands between him and Kain for most part of his games.

As for lesser vampires created by leutenants- they dont look so intelligent either, they look more like feral creatures for me with some glimpses of intelligence.

My guess - Razielims are dead for good, left without Raziel they didnt survive through 500 years.

TenebraeAeterna
20th Oct 2013, 05:04
Because Raziel returned and solved their problems by beheading other clans? Why wont Razielims show up at some stage even just out of curiosity to chek if someone singlehandedly waging war vs all other clans and winning?

My guess - Razielims are dead for good, left without Raziel they didnt survive through 500 years.

Tell me how often you leave your own town...

Humanity has been defeated, Kain mysteriously vanished, Raziel dead; who could possibly pose any threat to the clans besides the Razielim themselves...well, if they exist within the manner I expressed, of course? So, why keep an eye upon the clans and risk revealing yourself when you can be fairly assured of what's transpiring?

Even if they are occasionally keeping an eye upon the clans, be it through scouts or metaphysical means as they did when Raziel lived, what's the likelihood that they would be watching within the presumably short time span that he's going on this murdering rampage of his brethren? These are immortal entities who have lived for quite some time...it's very unlikely that they're going to keep tabs upon anything every day, week, month, etc... It's more likely that they would check ever so often and keep themselves hidden, continue to bolster their forces, do their own thing until they were sure that they were ready...sure that risking exposure of their sanctuary wouldn't end in their demise.

If your people are being hunted into extinction, you become a ghost. You vanish and rejuvenate your forces, you fade from existence and let your enemy believe you're gone, dead, fled out of fear...you make them forget about you by leaving no trace of your existence. Then, when you know you're ready, you strike them when they least expect it, when they're vulnerable, you take them down before they even realize the mistake they made.

Derakus
20th Oct 2013, 05:37
So you tell me that Razielims will go into "why keep an eye upon the clans and risk revealing yourself when you can be fairly assured of what's transpiring?" while also being "Then, when you know you're ready, you strike them when they least expect it, when they're vulnerable"?

Isnt it kinda counterproductive? If they kept an eye on other clans - they SHOULD notice the fact that lesser vampires suddenly started to run around like chikens with cut-off heads since sires are all dead. Also leutenants were able to recognize Razel so why wont Razielims also recognize him if they are so bright as you claim?

For the sake of possibility - yes its possible that Razelims are alive in some way. But its unlikeley, and if they migrated somewhere far - they are again as good as dead as far the story of Nosgoth goes.

So why even bother? In the end they were left without sire, and I dont remebr that leutenats were spawning thrals for anything except troops. Army without free will, general and goal. I guess Razielims should be thankfull for the human uprising - they got some goal.

And I highly doubt that without comand from siere thrals will still act as clan. Look at Dumah's clan - he was simply pierced by 3 spears, yet none of his "armodildos" cared to release their sire - instead they ran wildly in unorgonized small groups around Nosgoth, serving as quick snack for Raziel.
Yet Dumah's "Reavers" here are described as cunning swift assasins trained in hunting and adept fighters.

So tell me again about complicated schemes and minds of immortal.
I highly doubt that thrals were anything but mindless tools in hands of leautenants, only cappable of acting if ordered.

And even if we asume that Razielims were gifted with greater portion of Kain's gift and were naturally more intelligent before devolution, Dumah's forces were extreamly retarded in their devolved state and without leadership of Dumah and I guess that devolved Sentinels (and its stated that they are in highly devolved state) withour leadership of Raziel probably wont have high intelligence either, which will only become worse as the time will pass. And since they devolve so fast I guess one day they will just completely achieve "divine" state of an animal (bat).

Sentinels are already devolved to the state other clans would achieve only after 500 years (Tyrants and Reavers are more or less humans with fangs, Sentinels look like monsters). And since devolution seems to hit brains of lesser vampires the hardest way - after 500 years Sentinels should have turned into completely mindles piece of bio-mass.

TenebraeAeterna
20th Oct 2013, 06:15
So you tell me that Razielims will go into "why keep an eye upon the clans and risk revealing yourself when you can be fairly assured of what's transpiring?" while also being "Then, when you know you're ready, you strike them when they least expect it, when they're vulnerable"?

Isnt it kinda counterproductive? If they kept an eye on other clans - they SHOULD notice the fact that lesser vampires suddenly started to run around like chikens with cut-off heads since sires are all dead. Also leutenants were able to recognize Razel so why wont Razielims also recognize him if they are so bright as you claim?

For the sake of possibility - yes its possible that Razelims are alive in some way. But its unlikeley, and if they migrated somewhere far - they are again as good as dead as far the story of Nosgoth goes.

So why even bother? In the end they were left without sire, and I dont remebr that leutenats were spawning thrals for anything except troops. Army without free will, general and goal. I guess Razielims should be thankfull for the human uprising - they got some goal.

And I highly doubt that without comand from siere thrals will still act as clan. Look at Dumah's clan - he was simply pierced by 3 spears, yet none of his "armodildos" cared to release their sire - instead they ran wildly in unorgonized small groups around Nosgoth, serving as quick snack for Raziel.
Yet Dumah's "Reavers" here are described as cunning swift assasins trained in hunting and adept fighters.

So tell me again about complicated schemes and minds of immortal.
I highly doubt that thrals were anything but mindless tools in hands of leautenants, only cappable of acting if ordered.

And even if we asume that Razielims were gifted with greater portion of Kain's gift and were naturally more intelligent before devolution, Dumah's forces were extreamly retarded in their devolved state and without leadership of Dumah and I guess that devolved Sentinels (and its stated that they are in highly devolved state) withour leadership of Raziel probably wont have high intelligence either, which will only become worse as the time will pass. And since they devolve so fast I guess one day they will just completely achieve "divine" state of an animal (bat).

Sentinels are already devolved to the state other clans would achieve only after 500 years (Tyrants and Reavers are more or less humans with fangs, Sentinels look like monsters). And since devolution seems to hit brains of lesser vampires the hardest way - after 500 years Sentinels should have turned into completely mindles piece of bio-mass.

If they're keeping tabs upon the clans, to any degree, they know that there are still three very powerful brothers to deal with...combined with their clans and potentially the thralls of Turel and Dumah. While they may have regained a significant portion of their former glory, it's unlikely they have the ability to dispatch three of these extremely powerful vampires.

Before you mention anything involving them then being likely to see Raziel during his spree of vengeance...as I initially stated, just because they potentially keep an eye on the clans doesn't mean they were watching during this potentially brief dispatching of his brethren. They're immortal, know the general gist of what's transpiring, and want to remain hidden until a time of their choosing.

With that said, you do bring up a point regarding the downright bestial nature of most underlings within this particular time frame...so even if they do still exist, it's likely that they have become similar in mind. However, we do see intelligence within the Tomb Guardian. He, however, was resurrected and that may play a part in his intelligence...though he's obviously an adult whereas Dumah's death seemed to impede his devolution process. So, it's fairly safe to assume that the Tomb Guardian was fully devolved before his death and resurrection.

...still, the intelligence may have been renewed through this process. So...you could have a very good point there.

Derakus
20th Oct 2013, 07:24
With that said, you do bring up a point regarding the downright bestial nature of most underlings within this particular time frame...so even if they do still exist, it's likely that they have become similar in mind. However, we do see intelligence within the Tomb Guardian. He, however, was resurrected and that may play a part in his intelligence...though he's obviously an adult whereas Dumah's death seemed to impede his devolution process. So, it's fairly safe to assume that the Tomb Guardian was fully devolved before his death and resurrection.

...still, the intelligence may have been renewed through this process. So...you could have a very good point there.

The thing with Tomb Guardian and Turel's clan is that its unknown when exactly Turel was snaped out of his time.
And the fact is that Tomb Guardian was intended to be Turel in first place, but things got changed for some reason, yet they kept a dialog between Raziel and Tomb Guard\Turel changing few lines.
So may be Tomb Guard intelligence is just a coicidence of being substitute for actual Turel, and developers could never though that much on how should Turel's thrals look with rapid devolution in absence of sire. I gues we can basicly asume that Tomb Guardian = Turel just for the sake of keeping things consitent.

Turel's thrals are territory linked and one of the most potent foes in SR1, they are also seems to be less devolved then other thrals.
Same goes for Rahabims and spiders. You only encounter them in their domains, and they atleast got some tricks in sleeves when you fight them.

Dumah's clan on the other hand was without leader for quite a long time and it was enough for them to go from assasins into feral armadillos who are scattered around whole Nosgoth doing stuff.

Razielims were without leader for even longer times, then Dumah's thrals. And if we asume from what we know that absence of sire triggers rapid devolution into feral state - here we go with Sentinels developing wings and monstrouse features, while loosing most of their cunning and intelligence (but not all since they are able to comunicate with other thrals even in such devolved state).
But after 500 years of such devolution Razielims are either extinct or no longer can be considered humanoids or vampires. My gues that they fully changed into normal animals in the end.

Thats why I said that its UNLIKELY for Razelims to still exists at the time W-Raziel emerges after 500 years of having a nap in abyss. Possible - yes, but unlikely. And even if they still do exist - I doubt that Raziel would be happy about what they turned into.

Gryregaest
20th Oct 2013, 09:43
How much do we really know about the intelligence of ordinary vampires at the time of SR1? Only the tomb guardian ever talks, but it's not as though Raziel ever attempts communication with any others. They certainly don't seem amazingly sharp, but I don't know that they've necessarily degenerated into animal like states. A lot of that seems to be assumption.

Yes, they gnaw on corpses like dogs, as Raziel put it. But... as opposed to normal vampire behavior? A lot of them, especially the Dumahim, appear to be rather single minded and not particularly civilized. Though societal breakdown can be responsible for a lot of that. Of course, something had to precipitate the societal breakdown. Just bear in mind that a group like the Dumahim are essentially refugees, a condition that does not encourage the most civilized behavior in humans either.

The tomb guardian can of course talk, which doesn't necessarily mean they all still do, but I wouldn't rule it out. Other signs of intelligence might be the presence of the cultists in the Silenced Cathedral, which implies that the Zephonim at least have an understanding of social relations complex enough that they don't immediately consider the cultists to be food.

Raziel remarks about the Melchiahim robbing graves to make more fledglings, and while he doesn't think highly of this, it does show that they are still quite capable of reproducing. Though it's unclear how much vampire behavior is attached to instinct. And Raziel disapproves, I must again ask how far digging up a corpse actually is from the behavior he's used to. Using a fresh corpse, I guess?

If the free humans are making things like the citadel to keep themselves safe, I question how many free humans are accessible to be hunted. Which might imply that human domestication is still a thing. They have to feed themselves somehow. And if they are still keeping humans, that would also say something about their intelligence too.

I'm not making an definitive statements about the intelligence of the vampires at this time. I don't really know. But I don't think it's safe to assume that they've turned completely into beasts.

Derakus
20th Oct 2013, 09:58
I'm not making an definitive statements about the intelligence of the vampires at this time. I don't really know. But I don't think it's safe to assume that they've turned completely into beasts.

What I said that thrals who still have their sires functioning (all other clans except Razielim and Dumahim) are still more or less civilized and act only in borders of their domain.

Dumahim are unorginized beasts and just randomly wonder around snaking on encountered humans. All it took to draw them into such miserable state - "death" of Dumah.

Raziel was absent long time before humans attempted an attack on Dumah's castle, so that why in Nosgoth (this game) Razielims alraedy devolved into monster stage. While other clans show little to no degeneration traits.

I can only asume that Razielim kept devolving rapidly, which eventually led them to an end, long before Raziel returned.

The thing is - I highly doubt that Razielims made it so far as creating their own secret agenda and having plans for revenge. More likely they all are just dead (like dead dead).

Vampmaster
20th Oct 2013, 10:32
What I said that thrals who still have their sires functioning (all other clans except Razielim and Dumahim) are still more or less civilized and act only in borders of their domain.

Dumahim are unorginized beasts and just randomly wonder around snaking on encountered humans. All it took to draw them into such miserable state - "death" of Dumah.

Raziel was absent long time before humans attempted an attack on Dumah's castle, so that why in Nosgoth (this game) Razielims alraedy devolved into monster stage. While other clans show little to no degeneration traits.

I can only asume that Razielim kept devolving rapidly, which eventually led them to an end, long before Raziel returned.

The thing is - I highly doubt that Razielims made it so far as creating their own secret agenda and having plans for revenge. More likely they all are just dead (like dead dead).

Amy once said throwing Raziel into the abyss changed the course of his evolution. Raziel himself said that the Archons were agents of the Elder God and that he would become just like them. If the Razielim's souls are still connected to their sire, they may well follow along the same path, and the EG will have his army. If this were the case it might also explain there deviation from the Raziels original bat-like traits. Eric mentioned in a PM that their armor was built into their skin like a carapace, which sounds closer to an Archon trait to me.

Denam_Pavel
20th Oct 2013, 13:10
I can accept that Turel is simply a dutiful son enacting what his sire wished, and even simply a tyrant seeking power. I just think that incorporating Zephon as the whispering instigator towards these events forms a more solid foundation. My reasoning for this is pretty simple, I just don't believe that Turel is all that intelligent...

What I mean to say is that I believe he would have been prideful enough to spare the Razielim and seek to use them as a tool to his own ends, using his own clan and the Razielim to fully assert dominance over the other clans. He's the current successor to Kain, who would dare challenge his position, who would dare dispute his position in line for the crown? Surely even the Razielim would understand that what had transpired was simply Kain's will.

This is what I believe Turel would think, and why I feel he would be potentially inclined to try incorporating the Razielim without Zephon's manipulative whispers playing out within his ear. Kain has left leaving the crown to him, thus he no longer has to follow his father's whim when it comes to any potential desire to eradicate the Razielim. There's no forsaking honor when you have inherited the crown and decide another option more prudent over the former kings potential decision. You have the right to show "mercy" and the right to take any course you so choose...such is what it means to be king.

This, of course, doesn't mean that I couldn't accept Turel deciding to eradicate the Razielim without Zephon's influential advice...just that I feel it's a far better foundation that makes sense for everyone involved no matter how you look at it. In my personal opinion, it's the best possible course for them to take...but not the only one. What's implied to be their path still works perfectly fine...I just don't see it as the most likely course.

Others apparently don't either...but I can see the points of both sides, I think.


Turel decided to take command in Kain's absence, which in itself I wouldn't mind being a decision influenced by Zephon but I don't think he doubts Kain will one day return. Kain shouldn't be treated as a now dead former king. He is their deity. His will would be observed in his absence in a deluded way or otherwise. And Turel is 1,300 years old or something. He's probably had uncountable opportunities to see how vampires fair without purpose for decades at a time. SR1 says they already meddled in clan to clan conflict out of sheer boredom. If you had ONE chance to actually do it for real after all this time wouldn't you take it?



Also, I want to edit my statement regarding Turel not being intelligent. What I mean to say is that I don't believe Turel to be wise in understand the repercussions of his actions down the road, capable of predicting the potential disasters he might cause himself through these actions like taking the Razielim under his wing. I think he's likely an extremely intelligent military tactician who knows how to work the battlefield...but I think he's a bit deluded into thinking that people will fall in line simply through a display of power, his birthright, so on and so forth. This is why I think Zephon's influence would provide a stronger foundation by setting those seeds of doubt into his mind, being a far more intelligent individual...Zephon would be quick to tell him otherwise because it suits Zephon's own desires. It's also very true...even if it's ultimately a word of advice not given to actually save Turel.

Your argument can cut both ways. Arguably a Turel that sees the Razielim as an opportunity to greatly add to his personal ranks without a Lieutenant to placade, and is willing to overturn a decision of Kain to gain that manpower just when he is making his bid for leader of the Council is one who understands that he will be opposed by the others and could use the help. And while this decision might isolate him from the others that would exactly be why Zephon would advocate him doing this. Zephon is the guy who traps people. Just inciting a holy war against the Razielim isn't how I see him going about it.

TenebraeAeterna
20th Oct 2013, 22:37
The thing with Tomb Guardian and Turel's clan is that its unknown when exactly Turel was snaped out of his time.
And the fact is that Tomb Guardian was intended to be Turel in first place, but things got changed for some reason, yet they kept a dialog between Raziel and Tomb Guard\Turel changing few lines.
So may be Tomb Guard intelligence is just a coicidence of being substitute for actual Turel, and developers could never though that much on how should Turel's thrals look with rapid devolution in absence of sire. I gues we can basicly asume that Tomb Guardian = Turel just for the sake of keeping things consitent.

Turel's thrals are territory linked and one of the most potent foes in SR1, they are also seems to be less devolved then other thrals.
Same goes for Rahabims and spiders. You only encounter them in their domains, and they atleast got some tricks in sleeves when you fight them.

Dumah's clan on the other hand was without leader for quite a long time and it was enough for them to go from assasins into feral armadillos who are scattered around whole Nosgoth doing stuff.

Razielims were without leader for even longer times, then Dumah's thrals. And if we asume from what we know that absence of sire triggers rapid devolution into feral state - here we go with Sentinels developing wings and monstrouse features, while loosing most of their cunning and intelligence (but not all since they are able to comunicate with other thrals even in such devolved state).
But after 500 years of such devolution Razielims are either extinct or no longer can be considered humanoids or vampires. My gues that they fully changed into normal animals in the end.

Thats why I said that its UNLIKELY for Razelims to still exists at the time W-Raziel emerges after 500 years of having a nap in abyss. Possible - yes, but unlikely. And even if they still do exist - I doubt that Raziel would be happy about what they turned into.

We can't consider the Tomb Guardian to be Turel just for the sake of being consistent. They kept dialog despite the change, which makes that particular vampire intelligent no matter how you look at it. With that said, this could still be an exception...for whatever the reason may be. However, as others have expressed, the vampires still display intelligence even if they don't choose to speak or are incapable of doing so. I believe that we need some inside information (hint hint development team.) to give us a little insight about the devolution process and just how much it truly effects the mind before we can cast aside either possibility.

I don't believe that Turel's clan are any less devolved than the others, simply that they obtained a more favorable devolutionary process over the others. Remember, when Raziel finally does encounter Turel...it seems he's almost in awe and kind of implies that it's not an unfavorable progression in comparison to the others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG9R5vU0mO8

3:13

It seems pretty implied to me that Raziel considers Turel's form a far better suited progression, but you could easily say it's open to interpretation. So, it's just food for thought basically. If we're to follow the theory that devolution occurs faster for those who obtained more of Kain's essence, thus inheriting more of his curse, we could also say that Turel's clan are more devolved than even Dumah's. While logical, however, we can't really confirm that as factual either...but it seems likely. Even still, it could simply be that Turel's clan retained their intelligence based around their dark gift of telekinesis...an ability of the mind sustaining such.

I believe that Dumah's clan are simply acting as described by others: displaced without a leader and choosing to go about their own whim like what often occurs when society breaks down. Still, this is all speculation that's as likely a possibility as everything you are saying yourself. We need more information until we can really cast aside either possibility.

For all we know, all of the vampires may have been intelligent and free thinking individuals who simply inherited a sort of predatory, alien, instinctual nature; they may have simply had no desire nor care to talk to Raziel. On the flip side, they could have all been feral beasts incapable of independent thought without the clan's origin to keep them in check...save for at least one Turelim.


What I said that thrals who still have their sires functioning (all other clans except Razielim and Dumahim) are still more or less civilized and act only in borders of their domain.

Dumahim are unorginized beasts and just randomly wonder around snaking on encountered humans. All it took to draw them into such miserable state - "death" of Dumah.

This seems to be the case, at least with the Dumahim...and it's pretty hard to argue for intelligent Dumahim by the way they act. However, there is still a chance that they are intelligent and even capable of speech...but just choose not to do so while we slaughter them and go about a relatively nomadic and practically solitary existence.

Again, I think we need further insight from the development team to really cast aside either possibility.


Turel decided to take command in Kain's absence, which in itself I wouldn't mind being a decision influenced by Zephon but I don't think he doubts Kain will one day return. Kain shouldn't be treated as a now dead former king. He is their deity. His will would be observed in his absence in a deluded way or otherwise. And Turel is 1,300 years old or something. He's probably had uncountable opportunities to see how vampires fair without purpose for decades at a time. SR1 says they already meddled in clan to clan conflict out of sheer boredom. If you had ONE chance to actually do it for real after all this time wouldn't you take it?



Your argument can cut both ways. Arguably a Turel that sees the Razielim as an opportunity to greatly add to his personal ranks without a Lieutenant to placade, and is willing to overturn a decision of Kain to gain that manpower just when he is making his bid for leader of the Council is one who understands that he will be opposed by the others and could use the help. And while this decision might isolate him from the others that would exactly be why Zephon would advocate him doing this. Zephon is the guy who traps people. Just inciting a holy war against the Razielim isn't how I see him going about it.

Zephon is a manipulator.

If Turel were to have taken the Razielim under his wing, it's very likely that he could have easily dominated the remaining clans. If Zephon seeks dominion, this simply isn't something he can permit to happen. It's in his nature, however, to ensure that this doesn't transpire through a very underhanded method...and sewing the seeds of doubt into Turel's mind would be perfect.

- Turel would weaken his own clan by spearheading this genocide to flaunt his clan's power.
- The Razielim would be annihilated or driven to the brink of extinction.

Now, what if it turned out that Zephon was the cause of Dumah's demise as well...manipulating the course of events leading to his spearing? There's three clans down, without ever having to even lift a single claw...

That's very Zephon to me.

While Turel might have some, or even great, insight into how clans fair without their sire, it's unlikely that he obtained this opportunity with the Razielim...at least not to any significant degree. Raziel seems to hold the most significant volume of compassion for his clan. While the others seem to view their spawn as mere tools and extensions of their own whim, Raziel is quite concerned about their fate for a rather extensive period of time.

Granted, I'm a bit ignorant towards how much time has transpired between Raziel's fall into the Abyss and the war itself...so perhaps Turel performed this little experiment after the fact. I still find it a bit complex for someone like him, he doesn't seem like the psychologist type. Intelligent, but in more of the Warlord sort of way...his intellect is glory and battle.

Raziel and his ilk were the philosophers, artists, etc...they were the deep thinkers.

I can see Zephon performing an experiment like that though. Be that as it may, if Turel did something like this...all it really takes is one inspirational soul to rally a group of intelligent beings to a cause. If we find that devolution doesn't destroy one's mind, then all it would take to inspire the Razielim into action would be a few clever minds with a voice willing to share it. Then you have the entire clutch plotting, perfecting, and carrying it out.

Still, all speculation based upon my own perception...

Denam_Pavel
20th Oct 2013, 23:47
Zephon is a manipulator.

If Turel were to have taken the Razielim under his wing, it's very likely that he could have easily dominated the remaining clans. If Zephon seeks dominion, this simply isn't something he can permit to happen. It's in his nature, however, to ensure that this doesn't transpire through a very underhanded method...and sewing the seeds of doubt into Turel's mind would be perfect.

- Turel would weaken his own clan by spearheading this genocide to flaunt his clan's power.
- The Razielim would be annihilated or driven to the brink of extinction.

Now, what if it turned out that Zephon was the cause of Dumah's demise as well...manipulating the course of events leading to his spearing? There's three clans down, without ever having to even lift a single claw...

That's very Zephon to me.

A genocidal war with the Razielim would weaken the Turelim. That doesn't equal them being down. Much less gets rid of Turel himself whose already probably bigger then Dumah was at the time of his impaliing. With the Dumah impaled and the Rahabim having retreated from the sun, there would still be a claw needing lifting by Zephon.


While Turel might have some, or even great, insight into how clans fair without their sire, it's unlikely that he obtained this opportunity with the Razielim...at least not to any significant degree. Raziel seems to hold the most significant volume of compassion for his clan. While the others seem to view their spawn as mere tools and extensions of their own whim, Raziel is quite concerned about their fate for a rather extensive period of time.

After Kain, Turel and Dumah had turned on him and his own body was destroyed the clan was all Raziel had left. When that too was gone it wasn't dwelled on by Raziel nearly as much. By the time Raziel confronts Turel he has put his clan long behind him but not the betrayal on his person by Kain and Turel.


Granted, I'm a bit ignorant towards how much time has transpired between Raziel's fall into the Abyss and the war itself...so perhaps Turel performed this little experiment after the fact. I still find it a bit complex for someone like him, he doesn't seem like the psychologist type. Intelligent, but in more of the Warlord sort of way...his intellect is glory and battle.

And when you haven't had either war, glory or battle for a couple of hundred years, is sympathy towards the patriarch you already bore into the abyss likely to stay your hand when you finally have a worthy enemy?


I can see Zephon performing an experiment like that though. Be that as it may, if Turel did something like this...all it really takes is one inspirational soul to rally a group of intelligent beings to a cause. If we find that devolution doesn't destroy one's mind, then all it would take to inspire the Razielim into action would be a few clever minds with a voice willing to share it. Then you have the entire clutch plotting, perfecting, and carrying it out.

Still, all speculation based upon my own perception...

I dunno about that. I imagine such a diverse clan with philosophers and such among would be MORE divided amongst themselves with many egos clasing against each other rather then a more strictly martial clan like the Dumahim.

The_Hylden
21st Oct 2013, 00:20
Raziel was no longer a vampire and not identifiable as one.

It's not that they don't consider him a vampire. The first vamprie hunter you meet will shoot at you. However, if you spare him, and once you're in Melchiah's lair in the bowels trying to activate the inner workings to open his inner chamber, the next vampire hunter you meet apparently got the word that this vampire is out there killing off other vampires and sparing your kind. It would be like the vampire hunters, or Sarafan, in SR2 not recognizing Raziel as a vampire, when they clearly do with their shouts. Indeed, they have less reason to recognize Raziel as a vanpire then these SR1 vampire hutners, since these hunters have seen the beastly, ghastly forms the vampires have taken.


From the wiki:

It should be noted, and I think it is on the Wiki, that this is Daniel Cabuco answering what he, personally, though the clans' deliniations would be. Since it was never made cannon, there's no guarantee, or certainty, that this is what the actual clans' traits are.


Yet there are no trace of them after 500 years. Pro-skills in hiding? Or just extinct?

Since I can't any longer say, "before this goes any further..." I'll have to be late to the party in debunking things here. In the Q&A and lore bits, Psyonix lets us know that they're actually going off of the cut line from the EG in SR1, expressing to Raziel's query of how long he was in the abyss with a very nebulous, "A milennium, or a moment?" response. They're stating that, in their continuation of Nosgoth lore here, that Raziel is actually in the Abyss for closer to a millennium. 700+ years, at least.


Also - how funny you speak about "mind of immortal", when its clear that Raziel is not smart and prone to impulsivness.

We don't know the extent of their intelligence. The first ones he encounters are feral, by his statements. The Melchiahim and Zephonim, husks and insecticide-connected-hive-mind, respectively, are probably very instinctual. However, the Razielim state his name and so do the Turelim when they see him, so they can speak, some of them.

As for Raziel's smarts, what you're describing is his character flaws. He's, by Amy Hennig's own description of him in an interview, a "self-righteous little twit." Raziel's flaw is that he harps to conclusions and boasts of righteous indignation without knowing fully the situation. He's far too proud to listen half the time, and acts above the other players, even when truly he's without much of a clue as to what's really going on and is only guessing. These are his personality flaws. We can't discern whether he's a genius, or not, by any of this. Even being a supposed mind more capable than a human's, perhaps, the writers must make them human, with the same flaws we all have. Kain has them, also. His main flaw is trust. It's the reason for why he is the loaner, creates an empire then leaves it (made cannon here), and doesn't confide in anyone. It was made and forged within him after being so betrayed as both a human and a young vampire.



For the sake of possibility - yes its possible that Razelims are alive in some way. But its unlikeley, and if they migrated somewhere far - they are again as good as dead as far the story of Nosgoth goes.

Unless said story went to a place after Raziel and Kain went back in time and showed some Razielim :p


And I highly doubt that without comand from siere thrals will still act as clan. Look at Dumah's clan - he was simply pierced by 3 spears, yet none of his "armodildos" cared to release their sire - instead they ran wildly in unorgonized small groups around Nosgoth, serving as quick snack for Raziel.
Yet Dumah's "Reavers" here are described as cunning swift assasins trained in hunting and adept fighters.

And they were described, again never able to be used, by Daniel Cabuco as weapons masters. I guarantee you that you need intelligence to master all forms of weaponry... Devolution aside, and that has little to do with things now, since the Reavers are pre-deformed here, these members (which are not "thralls," like they're nameless zombies running about) were individuals brought back as the Lieutenants were, with their minds initially intact. By the time Raziel returns, some, or all, are probably suffering various levels of mental devolution, as well as physical. Zephon states that his mind is now that comparable to the hive mind of an insect. So, yes, they're devolving mentally as well as physically.

One note about why the Dumahim never tried to unstake Dumah: no-one should probably know that taking out a stake would bring a vampire back to life. Raziel only seems to find this out when the EG informs him that these souls festering in the Spectral Realm too long adapt to become reavers of souls, much like him. However, before this no-one in the empire should even know of the Spectral Realm, and there would be no reason to presume unstaking a lifeless comrade would bring them back to life.


I highly doubt that thrals were anything but mindless tools in hands of leautenants, only cappable of acting if ordered.

Well, there is nothing within the games to state how much of their minds they have, except now in this game, where you see that they all have inherent traits and strategies, and can speak just fine :p


The thing with Tomb Guardian and Turel's clan is that its unknown when exactly Turel was snaped out of his time.

We do know now, as Psyonix's Q&A video also states that they've concluded that Turel was actually present when Raziel was killing off the rest of his brethren and would only be pulled back in time later.


I gues we can basicly asume that Tomb Guardian = Turel just for the sake of keeping things consitent.

As stated, the Rahabim and Turelim both speak Raziel's name, so this is not the only one of them that could speak. And no, we cannot swap out the tomb guardian for Turel as in making him Turel to be "consistent," or rather to back up your argument. -_- The tomb guardian is the tomb guardian and Turel is Turel.


Turel's thrals are territory linked and one of the most potent foes in SR1, they are also seems to be less devolved then other thrals.

You actually see Turelim in both the Lighthouse section and in the Chronoplast. There are two even within Dumah's fortress. So, they get around.


How much do we really know about the intelligence of ordinary vampires at the time of SR1? Only the tomb guardian ever talks, but it's not as though Raziel ever attempts communication with any others. They certainly don't seem amazingly sharp, but I don't know that they've necessarily degenerated into animal like states. A lot of that seems to be assumption. Again, others do talk, but agreed on the rest.


Yes, they gnaw on corpses like dogs, as Raziel put it. But... as opposed to normal vampire behavior?

Funny you should mention that, as we've seen these Nosgoth vampires also munch on them, instead of TK-feeding.


Other signs of intelligence might be the presence of the cultists in the Silenced Cathedral, which implies that the Zephonim at least have an understanding of social relations complex enough that they don't immediately consider the cultists to be food.

Hm, excellent point, though with the "hive mind" thing going on from Zephon, their link to him is probably due to a lot of their behavior, in general. At least with this clan, this much is confirmed in their mental state by Zephon. All points afterward in your post are also great.



Dumahim are unorginized beasts and just randomly wonder around snaking on encountered humans. All it took to draw them into such miserable state - "death" of Dumah.

We don't know what transpired there. The death of him could only be part of it.



I don't believe that Turel's clan are any less devolved than the others, simply that they obtained a more favorable devolutionary process over the others. Remember, when Raziel finally does encounter Turel...it seems he's almost in awe and kind of implies that it's not an unfavorable progression in comparison to the others.

Actually, I've only ever taken from this that Raziel thought the others were grotesque, but that Turel is truly monstrous. I see no reverence, or awe displayed here. That's been the interpretation I've always heard echoed by others, so this is interesting. I can't see Raziel thinking favorably of seeing Turel like that, though.

TenebraeAeterna
21st Oct 2013, 00:34
A genocidal war with the Razielim would weaken the Turelim. That doesn't equal them being down. Much less gets rid of Turel himself whose already probably bigger then Dumah was at the time of his impaliing. With the Dumah impaled and the Rahabim having retreated from the sun, there would still be a claw needing lifting by Zephon.

True, a bit of an exaggeration on my part. The Turelim would be weakened, the Razielim on the brink of extinction, and if he played a part in Dumah's fall too... A very powerful play without ever having lifted a claw.




After Kain, Turel and Dumah had turned on him and his own body was destroyed the clan was all Raziel had left. When that too was gone it wasn't dwelled on by Raziel nearly as much. By the time Raziel confronts Turel he has put his clan long behind him but not the betrayal on his person by Kain and Turel.

Of course he's put his clan behind him by the time he confronts Turel, he's been told several times what he's already suspected.



AAnd when you haven't had either war, glory or battle for a couple of hundred years, is sympathy towards the patriarch you already bore into the abyss likely to stay your hand when you finally have a worthy enemy?

That wasn't really my point...

The point was that he isn't really a psychologist. He doesn't seem the type to perform any experimentation.


I dunno about that. I imagine such a diverse clan with philosophers and such among would be MORE divided amongst themselves with many egos clasing against each other rather then a more strictly martial clan like the Dumahim.

Intellectuals of that sort normally get along just fine.

Michio Kaku is well respected amongst his peers, as are many like him... It's the dim witted folk that normally have difficulty getting along.

You have Zephon-like Intellectuals and Raziel-like Intellectuals...or what I perceive as such. The latter are the types that typically get along quite well...if I understand their personality well enough.

Edit:

The_Hylden

Just seen your post, reading now.

Denam_Pavel
21st Oct 2013, 00:38
I think he was more in awe of his sheer size then anything else. Otherwise Turel's devolution is still relatively mndane compared to Zephon and Melchiah. Even Rahab.


One note about why the Dumahim never tried to unstake Dumah: no-one should probably know that taking out a stake would bring a vampire back to life. Raziel only seems to find this out when the EG informs him that these souls festering in the Spectral Realm too long adapt to become reavers of souls, much like him. However, before this no-one in the empire should even know of the Spectral Realm, and there would be no reason to presume unstaking a lifeless comrade would bring them back to life.

I have to disagree here. Kain's empire is a thousand years old by the time Raziel is thrown into a the abyss. A basic fact of their physiology would most definitely be stumbled on in all that time. And Raziel meets several Revived Vampires that he has no hand in.

Vampire hunters may have guarded Dumah's body pretty thoroughly in the first few centuries after his death though.


Of course he's put his clan behind him by the time he confronts Turel, he's been told several times what he's already suspected.

He's known that Kain is responsible for his own demise for even longer, he's not put that behind him. He states very specifically in SR2 that that's one and only reason he pursues him.


That wasn't really my point...

The point was that he isn't really a psychologist. He doesn't seem the type to perform any experimentation.

War games are not the privy of psychologists alone. And even if Turel doesn't instigate these kinds of things, he might still respond to actions taken by the other clans against his. Over 1000+ years that still racks up too an unspeakable amount of experience.


Intellectuals of that sort normally get along just fine.

Michio Kaku is well respected amongst his peers, as are many like him... It's the dim witted folk that normally have difficulty getting along.

Respected, sure. Many different philosophers all mindlessly agreeing on the same corse of action is another thing entirely. I don't remember artists being known for their strict chain of command either.

TenebraeAeterna
21st Oct 2013, 02:33
It should be noted, and I think it is on the Wiki, that this is Daniel Cabuco answering what he, personally, though the clans' deliniations would be. Since it was never made cannon, there's no guarantee, or certainty, that this is what the actual clans' traits are.

I see, I see.

Very good to know, this leaves me quite keen to learn more about the class (clan) backgrounds as they're presented.


We do know now, as Psyonix's Q&A video also states that they've concluded that Turel was actually present when Raziel was killing off the rest of his brethren and would only be pulled back in time later.

Now that's very interesting...


Actually, I've only ever taken from this that Raziel thought the others were grotesque, but that Turel is truly monstrous. I see no reverence, or awe displayed here. That's been the interpretation I've always heard echoed by others, so this is interesting. I can't see Raziel thinking favorably of seeing Turel like that, though.

Hmm...so that's just my interpretation then?

I've probably been misreading his reaction because of how malformed Zephon and Melchiah were. One was literally grafted into his surroundings and the other was a pile of walking corpses; so I took it for him expressing a sort of response that implied that Turel fared exceptionally well in comparison. I guess Rahab fared pretty well though too...in a manner of speaking.


He's known that Kain is responsible for his own demise for even longer, he's not put that behind him. He states very specifically in SR2 that that's one and only reason he pursues him.

Just because he holds compassion for his clan doesn't mean that he doesn't hold himself with more significance. :P


War games are not the privy of psychologists alone. And even if Turel doesn't instigate these kinds of things, he might still respond to actions taken by the other clans against his. Over 1000+ years that still racks up too an unspeakable amount of experience.

Yes, but we're speaking about a psychological experiment involving vampires separated from the original sire of their entire clan. I don't really think that's something he would concern himself about. Again, this is just my perception and it's difficult to really express what I mean with this.


Respected, sure. Many different philosophers all mindlessly agreeing on the same corse of action is another thing entirely. I don't remember artists being known for their strict chain of command either.

A strict chain of command?

Of course not, that's not really what I'm talking about... I'm talking about a group of intelligent individuals formulating a plan together under, there's no real need for a chain of command in a position like that...every voice could be as important as the next. You seem to feel that I'm implying a mindless obedience to some higher voice; I'm thinking more along the lines of a mutual agreement where several came up with the idea and began to talk with the others, perhaps others agreed and then worked out foreseen problems that the initial conspirators had...then others who didn't agree with the initial conspirators finally agreed because of the obvious flaws being worked out by those who thought it could work.

People can work together on equal terms, it happens. :P

Either way, it seems I was wrong about several things. I'll have to reserve a lot of my opinions until more clan information is released...which I'm looking forward to!

Denam_Pavel
21st Oct 2013, 03:29
Yes, but we're speaking about a psychological experiment involving vampires separated from the original sire of their entire clan. I don't really think that's something he would concern himself about. Again, this is just my perception and it's difficult to really express what I mean with this.

Well I definitely was never talking about something like that. I observed that Turel would know what depriving them of purpose does their subordinates. Not through experimentation but just experience. This is a warrior clan that conquered the world centuries ago after all.




A strict chain of command?

Of course not, that's not really what I'm talking about... I'm talking about a group of intelligent individuals formulating a plan together under, there's no real need for a chain of command in a position like that...every voice could be as important as the next. You seem to feel that I'm implying a mindless obedience to some higher voice; I'm thinking more along the lines of a mutual agreement where several came up with the idea and began to talk with the others, perhaps others agreed and then worked out foreseen problems that the initial conspirators had...then others who didn't agree with the initial conspirators finally agreed because of the obvious flaws being worked out by those who thought it could work.

People can work together on equal terms, it happens. :P

In war though, picking a leader and following his orders seems to be generally accepted method tho. Or at least, I assume that's why everyone does it.

The_Hylden
21st Oct 2013, 11:18
I have to disagree here. Kain's empire is a thousand years old by the time Raziel is thrown into a the abyss. A basic fact of their physiology would most definitely be stumbled on in all that time. And Raziel meets several Revived Vampires that he has no hand in.

It's certainly possible that they did, and in fact perhaps they would have to now that I think on it. If they actually practice doing anything with their "dead" like burying them, or tossing their bodies into the Abyss, then they'd have to probably remove impaling instruments in order to remove the body. I would say that the fortress would have been settled and guarded by the humans for at least that long, probably, so there is that reason the now leaderless Dumahim would not be able to get to him, sure.




In war though, picking a leader and following his orders seems to be generally accepted method tho. Or at least, I assume that's why everyone does it.

It would be an unruly and foolhardy mess to decide to go into battle, or really to do any major coordinated effort in life, without a chain of leadership to follow.


Also, please do not double post. Use the multi-quote (double speech bubbles) button next to "Reply With Quote," or simply edit your post. Thanks.

LordNekronom
21st Oct 2013, 11:42
Hey everyone, so you may have noticed the concept art of the Tyrant's head in today's blog post (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/tyrants-disputed-heirs-to-the-throne) about the Turelim.

No doubt you'll notice the pointed ears, yellow eyes and sharp fangs.

This does not, however, represent art we've created in response to your feedback about how we should make the Vampire classes more closely resemble their future devolved state as seen in LoK:SR1 (...although rest assured that this in active discussion and will be implemented).

Rather, this is pre-existing art from when we were concepting a number of different stages in the Tyrants’ devolution from fledgling to mature Vampire.

Anyway, just thought I'd let you know and save any confusion.

Anyway, hope you've been enjoying the lore posts!

Definitely enjoying the lore posts, love the head concept, good to know you are working on implementing the traditional LoK vamp looks :D, keep up the good work, Nosgoth is looking better and better .

TenebraeAeterna
21st Oct 2013, 15:39
Well I definitely was never talking about something like that. I observed that Turel would know what depriving them of purpose does their subordinates. Not through experimentation but just experience. This is a warrior clan that conquered the world centuries ago after all.

I'm just not so sure that he has that great of insight.


In war though, picking a leader and following his orders seems to be generally accepted method tho. Or at least, I assume that's why everyone does it.

I'm sure that they would pick a leader(s), but there are plenty of ways to lead. You can run a strict military hierarchy that essentially views its soldiers as tools...or you can run a more free thinking army where every voice matters, every mind is important.

I would expect them to be the latter. Think of a resistance force rather than a militaristic army. Either way, I was wrong in several areas as The Hylden pointed out...so I'm going to need to wait for further information to formulate more solid speculation.

Swagraven
21st Oct 2013, 20:58
I think it would be interesting if Turel didn't call for the extinction of the Razillim out of any particular contempt for them, but rather to avoid massive infighting between clans. While Zephon and Malchia (the two with the most displayed dislike for Raziel in SR, in my opinion) are more weak than Turel and Dumah, I'm thinking an all out vampire civil war would have probably seemed unappealing to Turel at the time. It's not sure where Rahab would ally himself, and Dumah, being a pretty blood thirsty guy probably wouldn't have cared either way. In a way, hunting the Razilim could have been a way for Turel to actually preserve his own clan and power.

Turel2
21st Oct 2013, 21:21
The image of the Turelim is very nice. Just adding some pointed ears has made it more lore friendly. Its just a small thing, but little details like this will impress the hardcore LoK fans.

http://www.nosgoth.com/system/rich/rich_files/rich_files/000/000/019/blog_large/brute-vamp-roughs1-20-2-20-20copy.png?1382108537

kain67raz34
23rd Nov 2013, 00:28
Hey everyone, so you may have noticed the concept art of the Tyrant's head in today's blog post (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/tyrants-disputed-heirs-to-the-throne) about the Turelim.

No doubt you'll notice the pointed ears, yellow eyes and sharp fangs.

This does not, however, represent art we've created in response to your feedback about how we should make the Vampire classes more closely resemble their future devolved state as seen in LoK:SR1 (...although rest assured that this in active discussion and will be implemented).

Rather, this is pre-existing art from when we were concepting a number of different stages in the Tyrants’ devolution from fledgling to mature Vampire.

Anyway, just thought I'd let you know and save any confusion.

Anyway, hope you've been enjoying the lore posts!

that older pic of the turelim look more similar to turelim in soul reaver its not too devolved but they are showing signs. that's all we want is to play nosgoth and be like oh hey its a turelim not oh hey its Edward from twilight.


The image of the Turelim is very nice. Just adding some pointed ears has made it more lore friendly. Its just a small thing, but little details like this will impress the hardcore LoK fans.

http://www.nosgoth.com/system/rich/rich_files/rich_files/000/000/019/blog_large/brute-vamp-roughs1-20-2-20-20copy.png?1382108537

this up here makes me happy its pretty similar to an actual turelim in the devolution progress what is wrong with psyonix do this stuff they blatantly say we want to appeal to LOK fans so far they are failing.

ZeroFernir
23rd Nov 2013, 01:58
Anyway, we all think that pointy ears should come to all turelims. Maybe a skin change that. In this case, I would buy it =P There is some features that should not be changed at all, even if you have explanations for it, as the pointy ears of Turel or the strange positioned wings to Raz. They are a kind of symbol to the series, you know? May there be some correcting on that point? (not that it's WRONG, but it just don't feel right eighter, you know?) May fan opinion count on this point? or it would be too much work to change it now? I think I can live with it, even though that will feel awkward to me.