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Sianan
18th Oct 2013, 08:00
I think there should be many more possible locations for using the grappling hook.
Especially in the map with the water there seems to be a big lack. It doesn't really seem worth it to use this ability in that map.

One round playing in the map with the water I grappling hook kept doing strange animations. I would fire it at a point and it would move me in the wrong direction and the suddenly shot back towards the point where it hooked on.

SushiViking
18th Oct 2013, 11:28
I experienced that bug too, pretty weird. In regards to hook placements, I feel it might be overpowered if there are too many. That would make escaping vampires much easier. I haven't played with it that much though so I haven't been able to check out how many hook points there are in each map.

Xaragoth
22nd Oct 2013, 05:29
I haven't yet had the chance to try around with it, but from my experience with the Unreal Engine 3 I can say that it is no problem to make context sensitive climbing for each wall in the game that is going up at the right angle.

I'll spend some time this evening to focus test the Hook (and with it the Scout Class) myself.

Psyonix_Corey
22nd Oct 2013, 06:29
It's a known problem. We want to improve Grapple, but it's better for now to err on the side of "too few" over it being OP. Like a lot of games, if you give a sniper a great vantage point he's going to be pretty tough to fight against. We've found that giving Scouts any powerful vantage points to grapple to can completely break the balance of the match.

Xaragoth
22nd Oct 2013, 06:51
It's a known problem. We want to improve Grapple, but it's better for now to err on the side of "too few" over it being OP. Like a lot of games, if you give a sniper a great vantage point he's going to be pretty tough to fight against. We've found that giving Scouts any powerful vantage points to grapple to can completely break the balance of the match.

Figures. However there might be ways to work around that limitation Corey. I will hold off on giving any exact ideas until I had the time to give Nosgoth a spin this evening and then see what I can toss around then (though you guys probably already discussed it a lot).

Psyonix_Eric
22nd Oct 2013, 18:31
Figures. However there might be ways to work around that limitation Corey. I will hold off on giving any exact ideas until I had the time to give Nosgoth a spin this evening and then see what I can toss around then (though you guys probably already discussed it a lot).
Still post your ideas, please. You may still think of something we haven't.

Xaragoth
22nd Oct 2013, 18:34
Still post your ideas, please. You may still think of something we haven't.

I will sum it up in my report thread for you. Check on it after the test is over/when I clean it up in a day or so :)

Venomizer
22nd Mar 2014, 04:20
First off, no I haven't played a scout, nor have I unlocked it. Doesn't really matter, I'm only talking about grappling hook here and we all know it only works on the rope areas. Which I thought was pretty lame, why not let all the humans climb the dangly ropes provided they can actually reach them? I spent a good 2 minutes just trying to climb them in my first few games. Needless to say, I was disappointed.

How about this: Make it similar to the bola's current effect? That way it at least has some sort of use. In addition, instead of making bola just wrap people up, they could go for the legs and trip the vampires instead. Making bola a knock down (original only, poison would still function as is) and providing an actual use for grapple hook in combat, and as an extra evasive tool for the scout? Providing small damage (maybe like 10-50 hp?) For scratches the hooks would inflict and netting potential assists.

As I said, I haven't played it, I dunno how their survivability is already, but I was thinking a close-range skill only, being that they actually have to throw it at the correct angle to get it actually wrap around them correctly.

Tureil
22nd Mar 2014, 22:36
I think the reason why the Bolas wrap up vampires instead of trip them is because 1 variety can fly, and its legs are useless in that attempt to trip it, and all of the varieties have lethal weapons embedded at the ends of their fingertips. (And toes for that matter, but I digress)

But I have to ask why you think a change is necessary to an ability to a class you have no personal experience with? You're being proactive but kinda jumping the gun a little bit with that enthusiasm, brother.

Venomizer
23rd Mar 2014, 03:53
I did play it actually. The scout already has limited attack options. When they get in close you're screwed. Sniping ability is epic, it's so satisfying to see 475 dmg per shot when they think they're safe, or killing the people trying to regenerate on a rooftop.

My point is, why would you trade a decent ability for an ability that serves zero use to you in combat over something that can actually help you survive or kill them. Every single vampire can easily get to where you are with the grappling hook.

They've already done things that don't make sense from a practical point of view in order to improve balance/fun play. How would this be any different?

Tureil
23rd Mar 2014, 04:39
First off, no I haven't played a scout, nor have I unlocked it. Doesn't really matter, I'm only talking about grappling hook here and we all know it only works on the rope areas.

My apologies, then. Mind editing this out?

WhiteFlameKyo
23rd Mar 2014, 10:26
They've already done things that don't make sense from a practical point of view in order to improve balance/fun play. How would this be any different?

This wouldn't improve the balance, as scout is already overpowered (at least comparing to the alchemist; hunter is OP as well).

Also, grappling hook is a very useful skill. Firstly, you can obviously camp on roofs. If you do it correctly and your team knows how to play, you can make it so there's virtually no safe place for the vampires in the whole map to stand without taking damage. What if a vampire climbs to you? Well, you're standing there with your war bow drawn. One shot deals him about 400 damage and knocks him off the roof, dealing even more damage. If he comes for round two, you just repeat the process.
Secondly, you can use it to flee. Playing the sentinel I dropped a scout and landed to finish him off. During my wing flap he managed to use his grappling hook. When I climbed to get him, he was - of course - waiting with his bow drawn (storm bow, -475 HP for me). Not to mention hunters shooting at me across the map. This happened a few times.

SexualPanther
15th Aug 2014, 22:20
I like the Scout because I feel like he is the only class that can beat the vampires at their own game. Between the camouflage and the grappling hook he can turn the hunters into the hunted and is one all-round sneaky bastard.

However... there is one huge problem, which is that the grappling hook is extremely limited in where it can be used. Before I bought the skill, I knew there were restrictions on where you could use it, but I didn't realize it was quite as restricted as it is! It can only get you to two or three places per map that you normally would't be able to get to, so it's easy for the vampires to know where you will be. I was assuming that there would at least be one on every building! And it's not like it would be overpowered if there were more places you could use it... it just wouldn't be so useless. In it's current state it's not terrible, but I use it so infrequently it's not even worth equipping.

I would propose to add at least 10-20 places per map where it can be used, and maybe a couple places where you can chain together a couple uses to get to an even high spot. That would be cool. Instead of the grappling hook are 3 extremely high damage abilities, so the hook needs to provide enough utility to make up for this damage, and right now it doesn't.

MasterZtark
15th Aug 2014, 22:31
I -think- some of the places you could use it before on every map were removed because they gave far too big of an advantage. Honestly right now, with the humans currently in a huge position of power balance-wise, I hope they don't get anything to make them even better.

Sorrowgate
15th Aug 2014, 22:32
Some maps are fine, it's not just about the number but about the effectiveness of each spot too, and in the cases where you could normally get up there anyway you still get up faster and possibly pull yourself out of harm's way too if in a fight. There are definitely some maps that need better (or more) hook points though. Freeport is the first to come to mind as a map that could use some love, but Valeholm is great for the hook. Sommerdamm has some nice hook spots for fast climbing or just for escapes, but not so much in the way of improving your view, Provance is fine and I don't have an opinion on the Fane, haven't tried hooking there yet.

You have to be very careful with giving the Scout too many angles though, put him on top of a big building like in Valeholm and there's simply no cover high enough for the vampires who have to take a charged shot to get near scaring him off. Poke damage is a big thing.

Edit: Ztark also makes a very good point that humans don't really need any more love at the moment, this could be something to look into if we get to the point where humans and vampires are a little more evenly sided.

SexualPanther
15th Aug 2014, 23:02
Well for every hook you give the Scout that's another way for him to separate himself from is team and make himself more visible to the vampires. Just simply using it at all has downsides. In my opinion.

Sorrowgate
15th Aug 2014, 23:05
Well for every hook you give the Scout that's another way for him to separate himself from is team and make himself more visible to the vampires. Just simply using it at all has downsides. In my opinion.

That's partly true. Humans are ranged so unless they aren't alert of the Scout is reckless he's never truly separating himself, Vampires can find Humans easily enough anyway and it still gives the Scout a great view to tack on damage a long time before the vampires can reach him. The only time I really feel isolated or in danger is when I'm on a roof that's too big to even roll off of unharmed, which is the case with one of Valeholm's roofs. It's not so much the damage, which is padded by the roll, but the stun. Adding a dangerous roof to hook up to in Sommerdamm would be fine by me but Freeport is a little too good for Humans right now to give them a hand, but I do want to see Freeport's hook spots improved in the future.

Necro71
16th Aug 2014, 11:10
I agree, Scout is an class whitch should have possibility to stalk vampires from diffrent angles. I believe that he should be able to use hook on every building on maps.

Grockr
16th Aug 2014, 12:29
I too think hook must interact with any 'ledge' (where vampires jump with shift)
right now its just stupid, you trade your insane AoE just to get one or two high spots

I think that wouldn't be a problem, just tweak charged bow shot damage/accuracy/chargetime/etc and keep in mind that higher you climb - more damage you take when sentinel attacks :P

I also think charged shot should be moving projectile, instead of instant rail-shot, right now its just so easy to snipe vampires, no matter how far they are

Darkrami
10th Jan 2015, 20:38
hello !! i played a lot scout latly and kind of tried various bluid. and i find that the grappling hook is almost unusful (i know that some of you will disagree with me ) .

Here is the point : the common builds is grapling hook + camouflage but when the fight rages you cant realy rely on any of these to get you out of trouble or at least help your teamates. also the grappling hook points are well known by the enemy so after the first shot you are quickly spotted and taken down by the vamps.

So i suggest a litel modification in the grappling so that :
1- supress the grappling points and make it stick to any edge (that will help too in reducing fall damage).
2- add a function that when the grappling is fired at a vamp sticks to it and bring him back ( you can also cancel it so that you bring the vamp in a desired distance) that would help in prevent fleeing vamps 3:)

want to know your ideas thanx :P

GenFeelGood
10th Jan 2015, 21:12
I'd enjoy the 2nd suggestion, yanking down a swooping Sentinel, pouncing Reaver, or possibly even a jumping Tyrant with it sounds like it would be an absolute treat to use.

Phytik
10th Jan 2015, 21:25
An Idea just came in my mind about the fall dmg.

I suggest that when you use grappling hook you get a rope out of your torso. If you jump down a building you get no fall dmg and the rope disappears.

Psyonix_Corey
12th Jan 2015, 22:43
We simply can't do #1 because there are too many rooftops in the maps that provide unfair LoS advantages. Even when vampires discover you, it can ruin the entire game.

#2 is interesting and we've kicked the idea around here, but are hesitant to give the Scout any more disable combos along with Warbow, Knives, and Trap. Particularly being able to yank Sentinels out of the sky would be OP. We always though it'd be fun to let you "ride" along under a Sentinel or flying Tyrant with your Grappling Hook, but it has not been attempted... =p

Vampmaster
13th Jan 2015, 10:41
We simply can't do #1 because there are too many rooftops in the maps that provide unfair LoS advantages. Even when vampires discover you, it can ruin the entire game.

#2 is interesting and we've kicked the idea around here, but are hesitant to give the Scout any more disable combos along with Warbow, Knives, and Trap. Particularly being able to yank Sentinels out of the sky would be OP. We always though it'd be fun to let you "ride" along under a Sentinel or flying Tyrant with your Grappling Hook, but it has not been attempted... =p

Deceivers should have that ability using webbing instead. It would make a great hint of their future spider-like abilities. It's not really a ranged attack if all it does is give them a tug.

Zurtonn
13th Jan 2015, 15:06
You have no clue of how overpowered the grappling is. Me and my team have been using it for the last 2 esl cups. We were the first team taking it in to competitive play. It has been working out greatly for our team. Also we see other teams using it as a respons.

SilentVirtue
13th Jan 2015, 15:26
You have no clue of how overpowered the grappling is. Me and my team have been using it for the last 2 esl cups. We were the first team taking it in to competitive play. It has been working out greatly for our team. Also we see other teams using it as a respons.

The issue currently is how easy it is to be abused, on freeport (last ESL) there's a particular spot on the map where it is nearly impossible to approach, you gave us a good run with that stratergy, but its the sort of thing that can be countered

Zurtonn
13th Jan 2015, 15:36
ofc silent and to that countre we have to find a new countre and so on :D It's al about changing the meta =D

SilentVirtue
13th Jan 2015, 15:54
indeed, see you next sunday zurton... im a enjoy killing that pouncy reaver of yours!

TAli0n
25th Apr 2015, 12:09
any scouts here ?
don't you guys think that grappling hook needs to be improved a little bit
we should be able to use it in more places than about 5 spots in the whole map which just 3 or 2 of these spots are worthy !
I run camo & grapple on my scout ( when I am playing with friends to cover my back ) , and that leaves me with just my bow and aiming skills to do dmg , I actually do pretty well with it , but against experienced players , it's useless coz they know the exact spots where grappling works and I end up mind dominated or focused by deceivers and sentinels before the fight even starts , then I am forced to swap to hunter ...

even if your team manages to cover you , you get called noob invis camper then the other team just swaps to summoners and spam artillery on you ...

would it be over powered if players can use it more freely
absolutely not , coz you have to give up volley, humans' strongest area denial skill , and once you take a shot (whether it hits or not) , your position is revealed and you have to change position constantly which make your dps even less coz you are wasting time re-positioning

this skill in its current state is simply "good until you face good players" , and any sane player would choose the constantly mobile- high dps- CC equipped hunter over it when actually trying to win .

so, what do you think ?

ParadoxicalOmen
25th Apr 2015, 16:22
I personally don't use grappling hook that much, but i will say that the times i tried it out i found out there are very few places you can use them.
I always thought it was almost the whole map (that you could use it) but turns out it's only like 6 or 8 spots in whole maps usually.

I would definitely vote for more grappling points. As long as the new places are not too high of course, or else it would be unfair.

Equanimityjohn
26th Apr 2015, 11:32
I definitely agree there is room for improvement so far as grappling hook is concerned. If not giving it far more places to be used, maybe giving it a small, close range CC or damage mechanic so it isn't completely useless once you're on a roof would be in order.

ParadoxicalOmen
26th Apr 2015, 23:18
I definitely agree there is room for improvement so far as grappling hook is concerned. If not giving it far more places to be used, maybe giving it a small, close range CC or damage mechanic so it isn't completely useless once you're on a roof would be in order.

Or make it faster? so it's also useful for getting away.

DonCardenio
15th May 2015, 23:25
Hey folks, I just wanted to give some feedback about my favorite human class, the scout!

I really enjoy the grappling hook, I like that aspect and paired with camouflage and a warbow, makes a great support class. Sadly it comes at the lack of volley, or turret, so it has to be a sacrifice worth making, which brings me to the point of this post.

I feel that the majority of the maps don't have adequate hook positions, or enough of them. Freeport is a good example, there are 7 hook nodes, two of which lead to the same place - which is fine. However those two, and one other are the only ones that lead to a place you can't already get to. The north hook node leads to several buildings, which I think it an okay spot, but the rest of the map lacks in that respect. I don't believe trading volley or turret for hook is worth it in the slightest. I feel the same way about Sommerdamm, and The Fane. The Crucible is tricky because it's a height orientated map, giving the scout too many hooks can lead to a really good advantage. I believe though, the Crucible is environmentally cluttered, making hooks less appropriate.

If we look at maps like Valeholm, and Provance, both maps have good hook nodes where you can see an adequate amount, and don't leave you ridiculously exposed. Some of these hook nodes lead to other buildings, which is great. I believe this is what Freeport, Sommerdamm, Crucible, and The Fane are missing.

I also don't think that using a grappling hook defensively works out that well, since a vampire will most likely just follow you up and kill you there. If you do manage to escape, you risk taking 100-200 fall damage depending on where you hook. I think that if grappling hook is to be a replacement for great zoning and support abilities, it should be equally as good.

Thoughts?

Khalith
16th May 2015, 00:31
I'd say give the hook the ability to yank vampires down when they try to escape in a similar fashion to the whip, that would definitely make it a more compelling choice for the slot for sure. But I've always felt the idea behind it was giving up the utility from that slot for a greater vantage point on the map. Depending on where you are and the position of your team, you can do some nasty damage if you play the scout using grappling hook if you have really good aim.

I've played against some scout players using hook, swift bow, and knives. They did some ridiculous chip damage on some of the maps before the vampires could even get close, especially on those provance bunkers in the grassy area. That being said, I don't suggest using hook unless you have amazing aim, you'll get more mileage out of volley/trap/turret.

Ygdrasel
16th May 2015, 00:37
I'd say give the hook the ability to yank vampires down when they try to escape

Similar idea: It could be used to snag and yank down rooftop dwellers. Unsuspecting Reavers getting ready to pounce, Summoners camping out while their Ghouls work, a Deceiver in the middle of mind control...

DonCardenio
16th May 2015, 01:54
I'd say give the hook the ability to yank vampires down when they try to escape in a similar fashion to the whip, that would definitely make it a more compelling choice for the slot for sure. But I've always felt the idea behind it was giving up the utility from that slot for a greater vantage point on the map. Depending on where you are and the position of your team, you can do some nasty damage if you play the scout using grappling hook if you have really good aim.

I've played against some scout players using hook, swift bow, and knives. They did some ridiculous chip damage on some of the maps before the vampires could even get close, especially on those provance bunkers in the grassy area. That being said, I don't suggest using hook unless you have amazing aim, you'll get more mileage out of volley/trap/turret.

That's what I was getting at, Provance and Valeholm are really the only two where you can give up those abilities for better vantage points. My concern is that the other maps don't have this option because the lack of vantage points. Most of them are just hook nodes to places you can already go. Some places you can't even see an entire section of the map from any angle because it lacks that node. Most of the places you can go with the hook and see, aren't good places for your teammates.

http://i.imgur.com/78xZAyG.jpg

The south-western part of the map for example has no hook point, let alone line of sight from anywhere. The nearest vantage point is that northern hook node, but that house blocks that entire dock area.

JudgeScootaloo
16th May 2015, 08:36
Bla-bla-bla-yes.

However, I consider the opposite. That perhaps the skills it is replacing are in need of nerfs.
Regardless, it seems accurate enough that hook is not an adequate replacement for Volley.

The event in which you can use hook efficiently, to my knowledge, are as such.
A) Your have a dedicated/supportive support/team. ->- No real need for the unusual position and the use of such increases team workload.
B) You are a VERY adequate Scout. ->- Same as before, just find a place with minimal sneaking locations to you and listen for dec's.
C) The enemy team is mostly bad ->- You're already winning, why bother?
D) Both your team and the enemy team have bad players but you are decent enough. ->- You have less backup.... risky?

Khalith
16th May 2015, 10:15
However, I consider the opposite. That perhaps the skills it is replacing are in need of nerfs.
Regardless, it seems accurate enough that hook is not an adequate replacement for Volley.

Going by that slot:
Turret- Fine as is imo, high damage yes but with a very small area so I consider it pretty balanced.

Trap- I think is largely fine, I personally feel the cooldown shouldn't be triggered until it goes off but I definitely don't think it's OP or really think the ability needs to change that badly, whether it stays as is or gets changed to what I suggested is fine either way.

Volley- Definitely a great ability but I'm iffy on nerfing it. Maybe I could see nerfing the duration or the damage ticks a little bit but the ability has some major drawbacks and gives you plenty of warning time to get out of it. If the devs decide that human's aoe and area denial needs a nerf, I can definitely see Volley being a casualty of that.


A) Your have a dedicated/supportive support/team. ->- No real need for the unusual position and the use of such increases team workload.
B) You are a VERY adequate Scout. ->- Same as before, just find a place with minimal sneaking locations to you and listen for dec's.
C) The enemy team is mostly bad ->- You're already winning, why bother?
D) Both your team and the enemy team have bad players but you are decent enough. ->- You have less backup.... risky?

Sounds about right to me. But given the places you can grapple up to on most of the maps, you're almost always better off using the alternatives to the slot. I really love the flavor of the loadout for hook/camo, getting a sniping perch where you can snipe unseen, but the loadout is just not as good as the others.

riccetto80
16th May 2015, 10:24
agree, map need more grapping hook places.

KaininitePriestess
16th May 2015, 11:28
Maybe a way to help with "getting down" with the ability would be to simply add a grapple point that leads you to someplace you can get down from? Like in Freeport, you could have a grapple point on any number of other rooftops that lead to safe ledges below.

I want to use the grapple more often because I loved using it in Provence, up until the other team got wise to my tactics and started climbing the barracks on the hill in pairs to get at me. :p It seems like it could be a super fun ability, it just needs something to help it be more of a reasonable exchange for the abilities it takes the space for.

I really like the idea of it working as a hook to pull vampires down, or even just as a really powerful short-range blunt-force-trauma gun. Getting hit in the face with a grappling hook would be brutal!