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Dragu Slave
23rd Feb 2007, 14:02
Yeah sure it looks cool, but does it really belong in Tomb Raider. There's a difference between TR and PoP, besides the different genders of the main character and the guns/swords.

PoP was without doubt much easier than TR, and after Legend being a walk in the park, I'm afraid that this new move might cause the game to be easy as well.

What happened to the old "How do I get to the other side?" "I'd better find another route."?

Now, I'm afraid you'll just use the grapple and run along the wall, and you're there.

So, what do you think? Wall run good or bad?

Bad.

CatSuit&Ponytail
23rd Feb 2007, 14:11
How about playing it first before deciding on whether or not it makes it easier?


When I saw the new move in action, I thought she should have had that ability from the start. It is totally Lara Croft's style.

ditom
23rd Feb 2007, 14:13
It's bad idea because you will have to go non-stop straight.In old TR you had to find another road but now it will be easy.Every road will be good.

CatSuit&Ponytail
23rd Feb 2007, 14:22
:mad2:
How about playing it first before deciding on whether or not it makes it easier?


When I saw the new move in action, I thought she should have had that ability from the start. It is totally Lara Croft's style.

The wall run move in the part we saw was used as a seamless addition to Lara's usual repertoire of acrobatic stunts. It in no way felt out of place or like it was "the easy way."

This is still Tomb Raider, and felt like it. The Prince could learn a few things from our Lara.
:)

shirl123
23rd Feb 2007, 14:32
When I saw the new move in action, I thought she should have had that ability from the start. It is totally Lara Croft's style.

well, I guess we disagree here. it looks...unrelated(?)...to me.

as for the difficulty level - I agree that we all need to experience it before we judge anything since we can't be too sure yet. it seems to me that we'll be able to use it only on a few specific parts? :scratch:
IMO, this means a bigger variety motion-puzzles, but also MORE motion-puzzles and not "classic" puzzles/real quests. :-\ I hope I'm wrong.

CatSuit&Ponytail
23rd Feb 2007, 14:41
I noticed that the early games often had handy vines and ropes to cling to swing on and climb up.....now Lara carries her own. It's a retelling of the classic game strategy, that's all. :) As with the handy vines, the placement of the outcroppings she can use her grapple hook on are of course based on where it's needed for the motion puzzle. I really see no difference. She sees a room, sees how she can maneuver around the room to get to the spot she needs to, same as she always did. :)

We are all hoping for the best, and what I saw holds great promise. :)

GoranAgar
23rd Feb 2007, 14:46
It is more believable than having ropes hanging conveniently from the ceiling wherever there is a gap.

Treeble
23rd Feb 2007, 14:54
Besides, wall run is possible. I haven't seen the trailer as it's still downloading, but two steps on a wall (known by traceurs as "tic tac") is perfectly possible. For a woman with Lara's abilities, tic tacking around should be no problem. ;)

(and yes, I've wanted Lara to wall run ever since I saw Trinity doing so in a room filled with cops back in 1999).

Treeble
23rd Feb 2007, 15:02
OMFG HFCIT!!!!!!

Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in Leave it in !

CatSuit&Ponytail
23rd Feb 2007, 15:12
Hehehehe, yeah, it was pretty cool, she did it so naturally. :D It just makes one feel as if she is actually making her own way. :)

But each move and change will please some and annoy others. It is just human nature. This particular move I find very cool, but I know others have the right to not feel as I do. :) But really, it is a nice move. ;)

Mangar The Dark
23rd Feb 2007, 15:35
I don't understand why people think the wall-run will necessarily make the levels too easy. I assume the levels will just be structured in such a way that the wall run is sometimes useful, sometimes not useful. It's like saying, "I wish Lara didn't have the ability to climb in TR2! The levels would be much tougher if she had to find other ways to get on top of things, like she did in TR1!" The levels in TR2 were just designed differently, and still remained challenging.

Treeble
23rd Feb 2007, 15:39
Question for Cat or Goran: now we know she can wall run with the aid of her ever handy grapple, can she wall jump? I know that move was scratched off Legend's abilities because it allowed illegal shortcuts and wasn't truly necessary, but nevertheless, it's something Lara should be able to deal with no problem. You've played the demo, can she perform that move now? :scratch:

Any other remarkable moves? I thought we were going to have to settle with the perch, which on its own looked so cool, but I'm so glad there's a much wider range of moves now.

If only it were Cubed...

shirl123
23rd Feb 2007, 15:49
It is more believable than having ropes hanging conveniently from the ceiling wherever there is a gap.

you're right, it is. however, both still look weird to me. :o
(not un-natural, just weird in general, btw.)

I'm sure that we'll get some great motion-puzzles this way, but I...want to see or experience diffrent kinds, too. :o does it make me a moaner?

CatSuit&Ponytail
23rd Feb 2007, 16:03
It makes you a concerned and passionate Tomb Raider, Shirl. ;)

Treeble, I don't know what you are asking :) She could jump straight up to an outcrop above her, is that what you mean?

Phlip
23rd Feb 2007, 16:08
I don't really mind, I'd sort of like to have it as a new skill but it's a little weird tho and I like using the grapply/hook to just pull and swing on things, so there for I voted NO!;)

Treeble
23rd Feb 2007, 16:09
Nope, I meant if you can throw her against a wall and perform a second jump off the wall?

Psychopompador
23rd Feb 2007, 16:51
It's bad idea because you will have to go non-stop straight.In old TR you had to find another road but now it will be easy.Every road will be good.

so you've played the game too huh?:scratch:

where can we find a link to your review?


:rolleyes:

ditom
23rd Feb 2007, 17:32
I didn't play TRA :lmao:
As I can see it will be easy game just like TRL because there will be a lot of motion puzzles and a lot of jumping and shooting.
Maby you didn't see trailer?Or maby you played TRA?:eek:

Psychopompador
23rd Feb 2007, 17:45
I didn't play TRA :lmao:
As I can see it will be easy game just like TRL because there will be a lot of motion puzzles and a lot of jumping and shooting.
Maby you didn't see trailer?Or maby you played TRA?:eek:

i was just curious how you knew so much about how easy this game is when all you have seen is extremely short snippets of lara's moves.

but you are more than entitled to pass judgement on something you've never experienced first hand, so go right ahead.

Treeble
23rd Feb 2007, 17:47
Why is it that motion has got to be assigned to ease? Metroid Prime involves a lot of motion based moments and it's anything but easy. I suppose the word you are looking for is not 'easy' per se.

We've already been told that the game is non linear in several spots; so there we've got exporation again.

We've already seen lots of levers and switches; so there we've got old style "puzzles" again.

Now, we're given more movements and all of a sudden it becomes easy? :scratch:

Dragu Slave
23rd Feb 2007, 20:08
People seem to forget one tiny little detail. In the trailer we saw her perform the wall run using the grapple. The gap was too long even for a wall run.

So it got me thinking... Maybe she can perform it even without the grapple, and the grapple is just a boost for an extension, just like how the prince uses the ropes attached to the wall.

If my theory is correct, which I am willing to bet that it is, I can already see it: TR:A = wall run after wall run + wall run using the grapple = really easy game that you can beat in at maximum 3 days.

munchkin
23rd Feb 2007, 20:24
It is sooooo Lara..... now that the technology has caught up with game designers visions of charecters and their moves it makes completes sense for this move to be added to Lara repatoire. :)

As for if it makes the game too easy... why not wait till we actually play the game until judging that? Seems silly to critic what we can't possibly know.

:rasp:

beccaxx

StarChampagne
23rd Feb 2007, 20:55
If my theory is correct, which I am willing to bet that it is, I can already see it: TR:A = wall run after wall run + wall run using the grapple = really easy game that you can beat in at maximum 3 days.

Even if it is correct, where would the fun be in that? :p :)

Isn't it is like how you could storm through many a game with cheats (although this wouldn't be technically cheating) but playing it 'properly' gives a much greater sense of satisfaction.

I've never played PoP but I'll be interested to see what I can do with this new stunt. I like Lara getting new moves. At first I was critical of Lara's abilities being too 'inhuman' in Legend, but after watching a few parkour vids, it showed me just what people are capable of doing. I say bring it on! :cool:

LisaB1962
23rd Feb 2007, 21:13
Lara's moves have been sort of like window dressing to me--they're part of the picture, but they're not THE picture.

As long as they don't have a sign pointing to the exit like they did in Legend, it should be a great new way to explore.

mrcube
24th Feb 2007, 00:14
Last time I checked people couldn't run along walls without some sort of aid (except in the Matrix, damn that was a good film), and if we humans can, I should give it a go....

Then again, maybe not. But I suppose in real life people also tend to die once they get shot once, it doesn't require 20 shots, so maybe it could work :scratch: But you no what? Who cares, this won't make the game easier, it will just mean they make the levels harder :rolleyes:

Treeble
24th Feb 2007, 00:32
Like I said above, and StarChampagne kinda backed me up, it's a known and relatively easy maneuver to anyone who practices le parkour (aka free running). It's not something everyone can do, and it sure takes its time; but if Lara could hang around ledges and shimmy sideways without having her hands bleeding ten years ago, it wouldn't kill her if she were tic-tacking about these days. And by the way, I'm pretty sure she'll only wall run when she can use the grapple, so it makes it 'less unrealistic', if you prefer.

mrcube
24th Feb 2007, 00:36
Really? :eek: Well, shut me up! :)

Treeble
24th Feb 2007, 00:40
If you look up le parkour on google or you tube you're likely to find things that will make all reality in real life very trivial. It's fantastic to look at. :cool: (but unfortunately not that easy to do; I can barely hang about on ledges :p)

Raider0011
24th Feb 2007, 02:19
I like this, and it isn't a wall run in the vein that PoP could wall run, she is holding a rope in the trailer... I think that this makes sense and should add another dimension to the gameplay.

So, when is Eidos going to announce an XBox 360 version?? :)

Taylour
25th Feb 2007, 03:22
I like this, and it isn't a wall run in the vein that PoP could wall run, she is holding a rope in the trailer... I think that this makes sense and should add another dimension to the gameplay.

I agree. I think Lara would look rather unrealistic if she just free ran levels, but with the help of her Grapple it would basically be like repelling :) Lara never made me think of freerunning, she looks like she would be a young gymnist (like when she was a little girl) hense all the fancy flips in Legend (ugh, which I did more than ran haha). Overall I think it's a good idea.

P.S. Lara would kick the princes ASS! He would say "Yo', I'm going to stab you." BANG. "Not so stab-happy now, are we?," says Lara after shooting. :D

Alexlovesguns
25th Feb 2007, 04:10
I cant say i dont like it since i havent tried it but it sounds like its inspired from PoP (like some other fast moves too). I liked the first pop (SoT), original, inspired and a beautyfull game, good plot too. The second one wasnt that good but you cant honestly say it was easy... or short ;).

People will recognise wall running from PoP since they have seen it before and its the first time it appears in a TR game but it kinda makes sense that Lara should do it with the grapple.

The gameplay doesnt seem that diferent in terms of moving, platforming and such.

barabora
25th Feb 2007, 07:47
Unfortuately, "Wall-Run" arguing was already finished overthere (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=1600845&postcount=228). :whistle:
But this is problem now. How many ppl vote will be tide-up to finished?
I think 300 voters is min. 500 voter max. (during max 15 days)
in member register, and log-in averaged for finishing
any poll concern any issues. 300-500 voter/max. 15 days...
And double score in period will be going to finished automatically.

N.B.:
Click here (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=84797)~
Click here (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=85652)~

We don't know about these polls.
min. 50% gainning is fair in condition above...
After all, there are no result. In this time,
Finally, EIDOS decide in these issues.
So poll questions are very important.

ziad
9th Apr 2007, 15:35
i'm not having second thoghts, but how prince of persia is that lol... even if i hate prince of persia i still think that lara is stealing his moves slowly

NightRain'06
9th Apr 2007, 15:56
I'd vote for Webbing from Wrists ala Spider-man. But we don't need to turn TR into a Spider-woman game now do we ? :lmao:

Seriously though, so she took up a move from Persia. Big deal. IMO, I think it suits her.

Please answer this question honestly. Was anyone annoyed at the fact that she kind of took another move-- Max Payne's Bullet Time, where he can mysteriously slow down time to dodge bullets-- in one on one gunfight in Legend ?

When I saw she could do that, I got confused. I said to myself "Wait. What am I playing here ? Max Payne or TRL ??" Then gradually I got over it.

I thought that move was really out of place than this new TRA move.

:)

ETA: By the way, her swinging on vines was a move also borrowed from Tarzan so there. :rasp:
She needs a new set of moves and since Wall Run is one of them, to her it's new. Shhh ! Don't tell her ! I'm sure she's tired of swinging around too as do some of us. :whistle: How do I know ? I asked her.

tombraiderquan
9th Apr 2007, 16:03
i agree men tomb raider is fun and easy but we need much harder puzzles and stuff :)
TOMB RAIDER FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LisaB1962
9th Apr 2007, 16:38
Was anyone annoyed at the fact that she kind of took another move-- Max Payne's Bullet Time, where he can mysteriously slow down time to dodge bullets-- in one on one gunfight in Legend ?

I recently found an Electronic Gaming mag from 2005, and I flipped through it for nostalgia. It was fun reading about the console war back when it was the Nintendo Revolution and the PS3 was white too. . . .

Anyway, there was an article on the top 10 gaming cliches and one was "Bullet Time!" Their question: Sure it looks cool, but does it have to be in every game?

I guess it does! :lol:

Oddly, I'd never seen it before and I thought it was an original creation of CD's. Now I can't think of anything original that CD brought to the series, it just seems like they went cafeteria-style through recent successful games and filled up their plate. :confused:

ziad
9th Apr 2007, 16:41
I'd vote for Webbing from Wrists ala Spider-man. But we don't need to turn TR into a Spider-woman game now do we ? :lmao:

Seriously though, so she took up a move from Persia. Big deal. IMO, I think it suits her.

Please answer this question honestly. Was anyone annoyed at the fact that she kind of took another move-- Max Payne's Bullet Time, where he can mysteriously slow down time to dodge bullets-- in one on one gunfight in Legend ?

When I saw she could do that, I got confused. I said to myself "Wait. What am I playing here ? Max Payne or TRL ??" Then gradually I got over it.

I thought that move was really out of place than this new TRA move.

:)

ETA: By the way, her swinging on vines was a move also borrowed from Tarzan so there. :rasp:
She needs a new set of moves and since Wall Run is one of them, to her it's new. Shhh ! Don't tell her ! I'm sure she's tired of swinging around too as do some of us. :whistle: How do I know ? I asked her.



i'm not saying i care, i just think its funny that lara has some moves from prince of persia, like the ledge jumping thing, but thank u for the lecture lol

NightRain'06
9th Apr 2007, 16:57
Ziad-- Sorry if it came off like a lecture in any way. I didn't mean it like that. I was just trying to make a point that it's no big deal. :)


LisaB -- Max Payne borrowed Bullet Time from the original Matrix movie, too... ****

LisaB1962
9th Apr 2007, 17:43
LisaB -- Max Payne borrowed Bullet Time from the original Matrix movie, too... ****

Hey, I wasn't crediting anyone with it. I just thought it was something CD created for Lara and was disappointed to find out it was yet another borrowed item--that it was a video game cliche even.

Kali84
9th Apr 2007, 19:04
How about playing it first before deciding on whether or not it makes it easier?


When I saw the new move in action, I thought she should have had that ability from the start. It is totally Lara Croft's style.

First I couldnt have said it any better... it totally is Lara's style. Second... hasnt catsuit played a demo already? I think she would know how well the wall run functions in-game.

[Angelus
9th Apr 2007, 21:13
I just don't like the idea of Lara running across a wall to get from A to B... we could have a difficuly puzzle instead of running across the wall. :o

LisaB1962
9th Apr 2007, 21:20
Depends on how difficult or obvious grappling is. If it's just another step on a clearly marked path, it won't be much fun.

If it's not clear what is a grapple point or where we're supposed to go, could be lots of fun. ;)

ElevenTR
11th Apr 2007, 08:54
Besides, wall run is possible. I haven't seen the trailer as it's still downloading, but two steps on a wall (known by traceurs as "tic tac") is perfectly possible. For a woman with Lara's abilities, tic tacking around should be no problem. ;)

(and yes, I've wanted Lara to wall run ever since I saw Trinity doing so in a room filled with cops back in 1999).
you can do this move in the Cat Woman game with her whip.

_mil
11th Apr 2007, 09:08
It is more believable than having ropes hanging conveniently from the ceiling wherever there is a gap.

that couldnt be more true then that... and really.... if you jumped on a random conveniently hanging vine in the forest..... would you really think it will take you weight :P
and dont you have a nuber of runs across the wall until lara stops running and looses grip? .... i thought i heard that somewhere....


:confused:
could be just me i guess....
and besides... nothing is really original these days... its pretty-much impossible to find a game or a movie that its 100% original!

CatSuit&Ponytail
11th Apr 2007, 09:23
. nothing is really original these days... its pretty-much impossible to find a game or a movie that its 100% original!

True, not much is. Try this: http://katamari.namco.com/


It's :eek: :nut: :scratch: :lol: and more. ;)

_mil
11th Apr 2007, 09:52
ive always wanted to play katamari!
and this... this is probably what made me say pretty-much and not outright impossible... ive been told its the most bad looking game, but by far the most addictive! :p

LisaB1962
11th Apr 2007, 16:58
I think Shadow of the Colossus is a very original game.

Atheist
11th Apr 2007, 19:41
:confused: How do you a wall run??

Mangar The Dark
11th Apr 2007, 20:01
It's kind of odd to see people complaining about Lara stealing moves from POP when, in fact, Toby Gard admits that the original TR was largely inspired from the early POP games, and was, in fact, an attempt to do those types of games in 3D. I mean, go back and play the original POPs (the ones that appeared on the Apple II and Commodore 64), and you'll see that they're essentially 2D versions of Tomb Raider-- jump and grab moves, crumbling floors, spiked pits, safety drops, etc.

Treeble
11th Apr 2007, 22:07
... and Tomb Raider kindly returned the favor when Arabian Nights (aka Prince of Persia 3D) was released. But that game was to Prince of Persia what Angel of Darkness was to Tomb Raider. Luckily, another company could bring the franchise back to it's former glory (Ubisoft and Sands of Time; Crystal and Legend). :D

Mertz523
11th Apr 2007, 22:38
If you watch when she throws her rope to catch the next part of the wall, she JUMPS instead of continuing to run along the wall like the Prince. So it's the same concept, yet slightly varied. So yea, she is not running along the wall unaided.

And to those saying all you have to do is grapple and run along the wall anytime and make the game easier. I don't think it will be that simple. My guess is that they will not over use this move, but to just add variety here and there. Plus, I'm sure only certain surfaces and objects will play a role in when you can use the grapple on the wall or not.

Leovixen
12th Apr 2007, 16:22
Yeah sure it looks cool, but does it really belong in Tomb Raider. There's a difference between TR and PoP, besides the different genders of the main character and the guns/swords.

PoP was without doubt much easier than TR, and after Legend being a walk in the park, I'm afraid that this new move might cause the game to be easy as well.

What happened to the old "How do I get to the other side?" "I'd better find another route."?

Now, I'm afraid you'll just use the grapple and run along the wall, and you're there.

So, what do you think? Wall run good or bad?

Bad.


I don't think that the wall run is bad at all. I feel that it's a very clever and interesting addition to Lara's moves. From what i saw in the video it seems as though it takes Lara a while to wall run to her destination, which is good because not only did CD make a interesting new move for Lara to do, but they also made the move realistic by that, and the use of the hook grapple. unlike the Prince who can walk run for a while,(without help),making it unrealistic. But i do understand where your coming from. i also personally loved finding another route, added more difficulty and length to the game. But the added move of being able to walk run is not bad at all, and that's what i think. and i'm sure it won't make the game easier, we'll probably rarely use the feature in the game, maybe once or twice, tops three.

vizieress
14th Jun 2007, 17:45
I don't mind the wall-run and grapple hook, but the BIGGEST problem I have is WHY DO ALL THE RINGS, HOOKS AND RODS look the SAME?!!! Couldn't they have spent a little more effort coming up with more interesting variations of these things so it's not so obvious: "Lookie up there, it's another ring, time for a wall run, weee!"

I mean, across Peru, Greece and Egypt, the wall rings, hooks and rods were almost identical...as if they had the same architect designing their tombs! Even the colours and structure are the same! :confused: Poor design I call it. CD could have made them blend better with the corresponding surroundings, or "disguised" them with decoratives such as creeping flowers, plantlife, or banners or decorative curtains...a lot of these rooms are part of temples, and temples would have banners and curtains for ceremonies.

*sigh*

05013
14th Jun 2007, 17:49
Yeah but it only affects the gameplay minorly. Did you notice when TR was released there were no more threads about the POP similarity? Probably cause they got used to it and it wasn't used THAT often.

KEKEKE
14th Jun 2007, 18:00
The wall run ROCKS!!

Why?
- It looks really cool, and the motion is fluid and has a natural feel to it.
- it enhances the range of options programmers have at hand when designing levels
- it`s totally Lara. PoP didnt use a grapple hook, and besides, hes move bendt the other way. Not the same thing at all IMO
- It`s fun!!! And what could be more important than that?




- my two cents -

NizCroft
14th Jun 2007, 18:45
I can't see how wall runs make the game easier. The places with wall runs are usually the hardest in the game. If she could use it everywhere then it would be easy, yes. But that's not the case. I love the wall runs and will miss them in Legend :)

CrisGer
14th Jun 2007, 19:20
I am not sure yet, will have to test it out some more, it took some getting used to when practising in the Gymnasium, in the Manor. I need to see how it is deployed in game, but am hopeful. POP versoin is useful in that game but TR games are far superior to the POP newest versoins, which are so difficult in some places to be unplayable IMHO>

Rai
14th Jun 2007, 22:24
Well it is just me then. have tried the wall runs, I have managed the wall runs, but I also made most of my mistakes with those pesky wall runs. :mad2:

A straight forward swing with the grapple is fine, even an occasional forward wall run will suffice. But noooo CD had to go and have timed wall runs, multi wall runs and near-on impossible backwards jumps wall runs. I couldn't find a strategy that worked for me. It was trial and error (mostly error) and hope for the best until I finally got it.

Examples: Egypt = beautiful high up very colourful mural. Well Lara just had to have a closer look didn't she? How to get from this wall to next? Whoa, let us inspect lovely Egyptian artwork! :eek:

St Francis' Folly: Need to get to difficult to reach pillar lets use a wall run with back braking (and in my case) thumb and finger straining backwards jump.

It may be a piece of cake for Lara but for me? Where's me hot cocoa and slippers. :lol: Sorry, I love TRA but I can do without those.

LisaB1962
14th Jun 2007, 23:59
I would probably prefer to have the long jumps back, all things considered. There was just something about Lara sailing through the air so fearless and confident.

I would like to keep the grapple as a tool though. I like manipulating the environment with it. I wish we would use it to climb. I also wish it worked more like a real grapple and less like a magnetic grapple that we were told is no longer magnetic. ;)