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TenebraeAeterna
17th Oct 2013, 19:39
Just my two cents involving the Vampires.


1: Clans

While I realize this might sadden the development team, I truly believe that you should include each of the clans as a class choice for the vampires. The unique nature of each clan has resulted in a great deal of adoration for them all, and to exclude even one is going to sadden a fair share who adhered more towards that particular clan than the others.


Razielim:

I adore everything you're doing with the Razielim; they seem like they'll be an exceptionally enjoyable class to play. I can see them as being particularly dangerous when humans are otherwise occupied...but at a slight disadvantage when the humans are capable of keeping an eye on the sky. I'm not exactly sure how they'll play out, but I've enjoyed seeing them thus far.


Melchahim:

If you add the Melchahim, I can see them as being an ambush class capable of burrowing into the ground and then lying in wait for the enemy to pass atop their subterranean burrow. Other vampires could lure unsuspecting humans into a Melchahim trap...leading the human to believe that he's fully equipped to handle the situation only to find himself outnumbered.

Furthermore, I could see this class as a sort of "summoner" variant due to their whole zombie-like nature. What if Melchahim were capable of summoning forth three or four lesser Melchahim to fight alongside them? These lesser variants would be much weaker than the true player...but present a sort of horde feel about the particular class.

Now, combine the two abilities and you have a very eerie situation. Imagine that a human has spotted a lone vampire and engaged in battle only to have the wounded blood sucker retreat. Believing they have the upper hand, they quickly pursue the enemy into a back alley with a grin across their lips. Suddenly, the ground bursts beneath them as a Melchahim and his lesser minions erupt from the ground and the combined forces easily dismember the foolish human alive.


Dumahim:

The Dumahim you're working on seem fine, no complaints or suggestions thus far.


Zephonim:

My favorite clan, and the one that I believe should definitely be implemented. Think of these as your sadists, the assassin-like class that toys with its prey over killing them outright. While the other clans can scale walls, the Zephonim should have the best climbing capability with full mobility upon any surface...including ceilings.

Furthermore, due to their spider-like nature, giving them a DOT attack sounds perfectly legitimate be it through bite or claw. This would let them lurk in the shadows and then drop down upon their enemies...envenomate them...and then quickly retreat while they wait for the venom to take its course.

These stealthy assassins would perform hit and run tactics...terror agents.


Turelim:

The Turelim you're working on seem fine, no complaints or suggestions thus far...with the exception of perhaps adding some sort of telekinetic ability. Perhaps their powers are considerably weak at this point, but it still gives them the ability to give a quick tug to humans in medium range so that they can pummel them into the ground.

This would give these larger vampires the ability to ensure that a fleeing human doesn't escape...and so long as the range is minimal and kept to a short distance, it can still be considered melee. Any subtle things of this nature will truly bind them to the clan and make them feel as such.


Rahabim:

Without a doubt, the most complicated class to implement...but perhaps not.

Humans don't have any problem with water, they can swim and enjoy an element that would typically dissolve most vampires. Well, perhaps many maps possess water features and the Rahabim are the only class not only capable of exploiting this feature...but capable of seeing while submerged.

A human isn't going to be capable of seeing under the water in dark situations, but perhaps a Rahabim can in some other way like sharks. This would give humans a method of avoiding all classes but the Razielim and Rahabim while simultaneously giving the Rahabim a place in the game.

The Razielim could pluck humans from the water...but the Rahabim could actually engage them in combat. Humans would be capable of attacking while swimming to make this fair...but a Rahabim is always going to outperform any human within the water due to their superior swimming capabilities and the fact that many attacks just aren't going to do anything, or reduced damage, to enemies in the water.

Flame isn't going to work, and crossbow bolts will be slowed.

2: Pupating

Personally, I would like to see each class have two different forms; much like what we see in the Soul Reaver series.

Fledglings would be how your character starts out, and as you progress...you evolve into an adult form through the pupating process. This could be done in a myriad of ways, and without knowing exactly how the system works...I can't really form an in depth idea focused around it. If we keep character progression between games, this would permit the pupating process more depth in the sense that you can re-customize your appearance when you achieve the new, advanced, form. These forms would be even more devolved and resemble the LoK:SR incarnations we became familiar with. They could also unlock additional, elite, abilities both passive and active coupled with a slightly increased resistance against the vampiric weaknesses.

If we don't maintain our character progression between games, then this could actually transpire within the game after a certain point. Vampires would have to find a secluded location to enter into the pupating process so that they aren't instantly slain by hunters who stumble across them. This, however, wouldn't permit much customization in appearance...sadly.

Well, unless we're permitted to customize the appearance of our adult forms before even starting a game...I guess that works too.

It's going to be difficult keeping this a melee vs ranged system where one side is restricted to the other, but it could prove to be a fun little game. :)

Kalideos
17th Oct 2013, 20:30
If they were to go ahead and design 3 extra classes, I would prefer that they just add another faction. If you add 3 classes to the vampires then you have to add 3 classes for the humans which is double the work they may have anticipated. In otherwords, the other clans will probably be added after the game has launched if ever. If were lucky we might get Zephonim and another human class before Beta ends.

TendrilSavant
17th Oct 2013, 20:37
Melchahim as summoners would probably be too powerful. In a 5v5 game, what's stopping the vampires from all chosing Melchahim? They would then all summon 3 lesser Melchahim and rush the humans. Even if you made them as weak as paper that's still 15 targets rushing 5 players. Maybe if the they could summon 1 Melchahim that acts like a mine. He stands in one spot and if the enemy gets too close he grapples him for a second or so. They wouldn't do damage just hold you for a second, then the captive players would elbow the Melchahim to get away; maybe decapitating him as he does so. You could plant these guys in choke points or dark areas of the maps to surprise human players.

The hard part about balancing the Rahabim is that there will be a mode where humans and vampires work together. If the Rahabim hide in water and pull enemies in, that becomes an instant kill to any vampire on the opposite team.

For pupating... I was thinking that maybe once you reach a certain level, certain cosmetic effects could be unlocked for purchase. For example reach level 10, unlock the option to add cloven feet then at level 15 add the option for 3 fingered claws and so forth.

GonarTrvig
17th Oct 2013, 20:58
In general, I think this thread has really good ideas! I agree with the inclusion of the rest of the clans. If the game will end being a 5v5, I don't see it so problematic.

I already thought that we could get more human classes as well, which actually appear along the saga. For example, melee warriors with a spear to impale a vampire or... Even throw it like Raziel in SR1? And wizards/witches too, some kind of magic class since for now we only saw physical fighters. And well, we have them even since BO1. I think that would balance both teams, though I'm not an expert.

What I find excessive, however, is the idea of giving to Melchiahims the power to summoning. I think digging into the ground and acting like vampire tramps is enough good by itself, specially in maps with narrow roads where would be easy to ambush your victim. I like also the idea of Zephonims as a kind of assassin class, really fitting to them. No more ideas about Rahabim, though. We don't even know if they developed their immunity to water by then (or at least I don't).

For pupating... Considering that (if I didn't misread) your character will have levels (I guess would be a style similar to the multiplayer mode of Mass Effect 3?) could indeed unlock more customization options. Or even we could already have all since the start and each person choose when and how do it.

I hope I didn't ramble too much, I couldn't help myself but doing as well some brainstorming.

TenebraeAeterna
17th Oct 2013, 21:43
If they were to go ahead and design 3 extra classes, I would prefer that they just add another faction. If you add 3 classes to the vampires then you have to add 3 classes for the humans which is double the work they may have anticipated. In otherwords, the other clans will probably be added after the game has launched if ever. If were lucky we might get Zephonim and another human class before Beta ends.

Perhaps...

There are a few classes that you could provide the humans in combination to those added into the Vampires. Correct me if I'm wrong here...but this the war which the Sarafan Lord leads the Sarafan? I might be a little confused, it's been quite some time and with all the time jumps and what not...

Either way, if I'm correct, you could easily incorporate a priest class with the special ability to become "blessed" where they're actually possessed by a Hylden. This could increase their power, grant them additional abilities, ect for a limited amount of time.

Just takes a bit of creativity but there's other classes for humanity that could be considered.


Melchahim as summoners would probably be too powerful. In a 5v5 game, what's stopping the vampires from all chosing Melchahim? They would then all summon 3 lesser Melchahim and rush the humans. Even if you made them as weak as paper that's still 15 targets rushing 5 players. Maybe if the they could summon 1 Melchahim that acts like a mine. He stands in one spot and if the enemy gets too close he grapples him for a second or so. They wouldn't do damage just hold you for a second, then the captive players would elbow the Melchahim to get away; maybe decapitating him as he does so. You could plant these guys in choke points or dark areas of the maps to surprise human players.

The hard part about balancing the Rahabim is that there will be a mode where humans and vampires work together. If the Rahabim hide in water and pull enemies in, that becomes an instant kill to any vampire on the opposite team.

For pupating... I was thinking that maybe once you reach a certain level, certain cosmetic effects could be unlocked for purchase. For example reach level 10, unlock the option to add cloven feet then at level 15 add the option for 3 fingered claws and so forth.

I don't think it'll be as bad as you believe.

MMORPG games have summoning classes and structured PVP, yet they make it work despite the ability to choose nothing but summoning classes. Typically, these players are just targeted quickly to ensure that their minions fall upon the death of the summoner. With that said, it's just an idea to get the ball rolling. :)

As for the Rahabim,

If that type of gameplay comes to be...then both sides will, presumably, have Rahabim or Razielim to pluck the Rahabim out of the water whenever they show their crested heads. :P


In general, I think this thread has really good ideas! I agree with the inclusion of the rest of the clans. If the game will end being a 5v5, I don't see it so problematic.

I already thought that we could get more human classes as well, which actually appear along the saga. For example, melee warriors with a spear to impale a vampire or... Even throw it like Raziel in SR1? And wizards/witches too, some kind of magic class since for now we only saw physical fighters. And well, we have them even since BO1. I think that would balance both teams, though I'm not an expert.

What I find excessive, however, is the idea of giving to Melchiahims the power to summoning. I think digging into the ground and acting like vampire tramps is enough good by itself, specially in maps with narrow roads where would be easy to ambush your victim. I like also the idea of Zephonims as a kind of assassin class, really fitting to them. No more ideas about Rahabim, though. We don't even know if they developed their immunity to water by then (or at least I don't).

For pupating... Considering that (if I didn't misread) your character will have levels (I guess would be a style similar to the multiplayer mode of Mass Effect 3?) could indeed unlock more customization options. Or even we could already have all since the start and each person choose when and how do it.

I hope I didn't ramble too much, I couldn't help myself but doing as well some brainstorming.

No worries, rant away...tis what the thread is designed for.

I still don't believe that the Melchiahim having the ability to summon three or four underlings of significantly weaker ability would be too bad...especially if they act with a horde-like nature. Make it so they can't roam too far away from the player Melchiahim so that they are ALWAYS right alongside one another.

This way, you're essentially playing the horde itself rather than summoning truly independent underlings that roam off to do their own thing. I prolly should have mentioned that before, but I see them as having a very unified feel with their minions...rather than being like, for example, a WoW Hunter.

Will it need balanced? Sure...but I think it could be done.

TendrilSavant
21st Oct 2013, 00:11
Maybe the Melchahim have an activated ability that let's them linger in between the spectral and material realm. From the Melchahim point of view, the world would have a spectral realm filter; maybe see things that can't be seen normally. Opponents viewing Melchahim would see them somewhat transparent, maybe even nearly invisible if not moving. Since they're in between the planes they can still take damage and deal damage, just at lower rates.

This would fit with how Melchiah phases through gates. If I remember correctly Melchiah can be seen in the spectral realm when phasing, but isn't truly in that realm.

diuqSehT
21st Oct 2013, 00:38
So when a Melch is running down a crossbow-ist, and knows the human is about to fire, he could manually try to time his phasing so the arrow passes right through him harmlessly. That'd be a highly sexualized skill to have.

TendrilSavant
21st Oct 2013, 21:22
...highly sexualized skill...

What now?

As for the Rahabim, how does a "Tracker" class sound? As stated before, the development name for the Rahabim was Aluka, Hebrew for leech. What if before adapting to water the Rahabim develop heightened senses to find their prey? Maybe through scent trails, heat signatures or vibrations in the ground.

TenebraeAeterna
21st Oct 2013, 21:30
Maybe the Melchahim have an activated ability that let's them linger in between the spectral and material realm. From the Melchahim point of view, the world would have a spectral realm filter; maybe see things that can't be seen normally. Opponents viewing Melchahim would see them somewhat transparent, maybe even nearly invisible if not moving. Since they're in between the planes they can still take damage and deal damage, just at lower rates.

This would fit with how Melchiah phases through gates. If I remember correctly Melchiah can be seen in the spectral realm when phasing, but isn't truly in that realm.

Could be another lovely skill for them to possess that makes sense.


So when a Melch is running down a crossbow-ist, and knows the human is about to fire, he could manually try to time his phasing so the arrow passes right through him harmlessly. That'd be a highly sexualized skill to have.

Indeed,

I can see it working pretty well for a hobbling zombie-like class...which they kind of are due to their condition. Would really instill the sense of fear to have one coming at you, fired upon, and watch as your projectile phases right through them due to a very skillfully timed phase.


What now?

As for the Rahabim, how does a "Tracker" class sound? As stated before, the development name for the Rahabim was Aluka, Hebrew for leech. What if before adapting to water the Rahabim develop heightened senses to find their prey? Maybe through scent trails, heat signatures or vibrations in the ground.

Could work, most likely heat signatures since they take on a kind of serpentine progression. With that said, they're still going to need more than that though.

Vampmaster
21st Oct 2013, 21:56
Could work, most likely heat signatures since they take on a kind of serpentine progression. With that said, they're still going to need more than that though.

I already mentioned an electric eel attack and a shark bite.

EDIT: Or, since you mentioned serpents - Maybe they could spit venom and dislocate their jaw to bite or even swallow you whole.

TenebraeAeterna
21st Oct 2013, 22:15
I already mentioned an electric eel attack and a shark bite.

EDIT: Or, since you mentioned serpents - Maybe they could spit venom and dislocate their jaw to bite or even swallow you whole.

An electric discharge attack could be interesting...

lordbane2110
29th Oct 2013, 14:30
I still feel that the Rahabim should stay close to there, SR1 roots so maybe limited holy water resistance, a short range projectile, nothing crazy long but with an arc like a mortar so you can't hit people too far away

Electric, hmmm maybe we didn't see Rahab having such an ability, but who's to say he didn't, the bite whole thing is cool, maybe at like 25% health or less the humans are sufficently weak as to be unable to resist it

Vampmaster
29th Oct 2013, 15:45
Or maybe it does mid-to-high damage + stun.

EDIT: The number of abilities the vampires in SR1 was dependent on what the resources the dev team had and what memory the console had. There's no reason they couldn't have had others we didn't get to see.

kain67raz34
23rd Nov 2013, 00:09
I still feel that the Rahabim should stay close to there, SR1 roots so maybe limited holy water resistance, a short range projectile, nothing crazy long but with an arc like a mortar so you can't hit people too far away

Electric, hmmm maybe we didn't see Rahab having such an ability, but who's to say he didn't, the bite whole thing is cool, maybe at like 25% health or less the humans are sufficently weak as to be unable to resist it

ikr but don't count on it they seem to be wanting to do their own thing with an already amazing series I mean the vampires don't even look like vampires they look like humans any true fan knows that the ancient vampires had 3 fingers and 2 toes.