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BassViper
30th Jan 2007, 19:46
In MANY ways the "Save" methology is the key to fun and rapid advancement in any computer game, especially in the early stages when the user is playing in the "easy" or "beginners" mode. It is in fact the best learning tool in the game itself as far as how to navigate.

In any game, an INSTANT "Save" key MUST be provided without having to revert to previously play scenerios that are a waste of time and lead to boredom since they've already been played.

The old "DOOM" did this magnifiscently!!!! It MAY be the key to WHY it is still revered as one of the greatest games of all time, yet today.

When a "Save" stratgey FORCES me to re-play previously mastered scenarios, I get bored with having to go over and over the same stuff I've already done before.

First time out of the box, give me the standard F6 Quicksave key as a true point I can go back to at MY choosing. "Doom" did this, so can YOU.

Then, when you've at least navigated your way through the game the FIRST time, when you get ready to play it at serious difficulty levels from then on, you have an idea of what you just might have to prepare for without having to waste time re-playing screens(maps) you've already played just to get to the same point, only to die again. Skip the re-play, give me an F6 that does it's job, then lets Rock n Roll.

When I finally get to the more sophisticated difficulty attempts to get throught the game, I say, BRING IT ON. At least I didn't WASTE so much time learning, or being forced to replay the extensive easy scenarios just to get to where I just died. It's redundant, boring and can make you lose interest in a game really quickly, resulting in bad revues and less money for your company.

We Gamers are no dummies. Let's us control the "save" point" the way WE want to. The way it USED to be done.

Dazzle me with your graphics all you want to, but if you ruin the Pace of gaming itself, your game is no fun, will get bad revues, and you will lose money you COULD have made if you just keep the pace right.

LCTRL is a Nice game. Has some interesting logic puzzles, some serious action quick-key requirements and some decent FPS Shootouts on occasion.

Your "SAVE" strategy sucks however and can be your undoing if this strategy gets put on the back burner as a less than important one.

Take it from an old Aerospace Software Engineer, now retired.

I'm old, I've been playing digital games since the 70's, and you can still bore even ME if you don't get it right. I don't need to be 11 years old to figure this stuff out.

Thanx.

Astara
31st Jan 2007, 00:03
If the challenge is to play a game of chess from start to finish in order to pass some point, would it be the same if you could save after every move and essentially take back any move you want?

Some of the exercises are "chained" -- in that going through part-a is supposed to make it more difficult for part-b, but if you could save after part-a, you could wait for some lucky "dice-roll" and make it through 'b'.
Like say...you are in a battle with 3 guys. Depending on what difficulty you play at, there are different 'chances' of a killing someone and them leaving a health-pack. So you are about to go into battle with "mr. Big". You have 3 enemies before and you haven't planned ahead and need 3 "HP"s. So you
kill enemy 1 - get hp?, yes->save, no, reload from beginning of battle.
kill enemy 2 - get hp?, yes -> save, no, reload after 1st enemy kill
kill enemy 3 - get hp?, yes->save, no - reload after 2nd.
---Now you proceed with an "unfair" advantage. You've thwarted the odds of the game. If chances of getting an HP are 1 in 6 on "hard", then chances of getting 3 HP's from all 3 enemies before big-boss would be 1 in 216. But if you allow saves between enemies dying, you can force those probabilities to near certainty.

Many of the checkpoints may seem random and some may feel downright "inconvenient", but think of how expert you become at redoing the easy section.

Hey -- I know it's a pain. Like africa, you mention, the boulder roll -- why doesn't it allow you to save right before the boulder -- instead, you have to run up & down stairs and around a corner. Such a pain to waste such time.

However -- one thing to remember (which isn't a _great_ excuse) is that some people claim to have "solved the entire game" -- all treasures, playing on "hard", and time-trials, in less than a day. For them, the game is "too easy".

First time through the game, took me ~100 hours...but since then I've made it through in under 10 hours of game-time. When I started, I didn't see any way I'd ever make the TimeTrials, but now I can beat some of them with minutes to spare (kazakstan w/>5minutes to spare).

Much of it has to do with the "luck of the draw" -- what the random-number-generator-god (all hail Random! Lord of Chaos! :D ) dishes out on a given play. Sometimes the force is with ya, and other times -- well, ya keep rolling snake-eyes. :-(.

Fortunately, the Random Lord, is tamed "a bit" when doing time-trials -- damage seems "moderate/medium", and I can usually make it through "cycle" scenes within the time allotted -- vs. when I've played on hard -- I've had the cycle scene in kazakstan take over 45 minutes to get through -- and on 2 occasions have even had the train be completely missing (talk about low dice rolls -- must be equivalent to rolling a 0 on 2-6-sided die; i.e. - a game "bug").

I'm assuming that's the same with the middle, 3rd platform to jump to, in Nepal being "missing" from the outset. Next to impossible to finish, though I've heard of an alternate finish possibility (haven't quite gotten it to work though).

Unfortunately, as much as the checkpoint system seems a pain now, after enough "play", the game begins to get too easy -- proceeding through a Time Trial with few or no deaths on a regular basis.

Makes one wish for an extensible gaming system -- ability to add monsters, treasures, outfits, levels, landscapes.

Another option would be to randomize placement of "treasures", number of enemies, and maybe even battle locations.

BTW -- one thing that really made a *BIG* difference (on the PC) was getting a good gamepad. Some things that were exceedingly difficult with keyboard become simple with a gamepad.

Only places I find easier with keyboard still are 1) kazakstan, controlling the big gun thing(s). In both cases, it helps to be able to keep the gun level while rotating at a slow-fixed-sweep speed. With the tiny analog joystick on a gamepad, it's hard to do fine-movements, quickly -- it's really the fault of the design of the gamepad -- there is no force-feedback to tell you how far (right/left/up/down) you've pushed.
It would be helpful to have the knobs push back more, the more they are off center, so you could feel how far you've pushed the stick off center.

Patience is 'key'....you'll get too good to make the game interesting soon enough...

A*a

Lunideth
31st Jan 2007, 01:26
I agree with astra. If in game is save key most of the players play game that they save every second after avery jump and killed enemy. If you cant play game without saving all the time then play easier games.
And if DOOM is so great game then dont bother playing Legend instead go back to your doom.

Terminatorvs
31st Jan 2007, 10:42
Legend is easy without save-everywhere. Besides, checkpoints are scattered around every corner, so you don't have to replay large sections of the level. You should be thankful, that CDs didn't use PS TR 1 and 3 save crystals.
I played on hard and it was rather easy to complete Legend 100% in under 15 hours total.

Lunideth
31st Jan 2007, 10:54
Legend is easy without save-everywhere. Besides, checkpoints are scattered around every corner, so you don't have to replay large sections of the level. You should be thankful, that CDs didn't use PS TR 1 and 3 save crystals.
I played on hard and it was rather easy to complete Legend 100% in under 15 hours total.

Yes you are right about that. In tr1 crystlas werent very funny saving method. especially in some places where you had to come back so you had to play very very long part without save. In TR4 is good system: there are crystals what you find, but you can use them when you want. So if there was easy place and there was crystal you didnt have to use it and you could spare it for hard place.

BassViper
31st Jan 2007, 17:18
Astara:

I appreciate your comments. Probably just a preference thing with me.
I like the quicksave on the first go around so you can learn the territory
without wasting so much time. Then when you're ready to play the harder modes,
you dont get stuck so easily since you know what's coming and have quickly
found ways around it.

I know the hard core folks consider TRL to be "easy" and at I suppose it is,
but it has it's harder moments and I like the concept of a foxy female as the
heroine of the game. My spouse of 27 years, who's real name IS Laura, loves it.

I think it's cool in several ways but not the hardest thing I've played.


Lunideth:
Gee, thank you for your kind "polite" response.

Actually, I DO still have DOOM I & II and have got them to run on XP Media as a DOS task.
After 13 years I'm still trying to beat the top difficulty level which is designed for
network multi-player mode. I'm coming along with it. I DARE you to try it. It was always
claimed to be impossible for a single player to beat this level.

Primitive graphics and all, it's still a gold standard of gaming and no doubt always will be.
As were PONG, Donkey Kong, and the original Mario and Pac man. All of which were games that
simply got harder the better you got at them.


Terminatorvs:
You're no doubt a more skilled player than I, but I did years ago get an award for highest
scorer of all time on BONK, which came out on the old Turbo-graphics 16.

Like I said to Astara, I think it's a matter of preference. Just expressing mine.

I'm not into using "cheats" however. THAT really spoils any game. If it's not a challenge,
why do it.

CatSuit&Ponytail
31st Jan 2007, 17:35
I like being able to save early and save often, it's a mantra. I do NOT like being forced to save where someone else thinks I should. Ever. It doesn't matter to me if save points are scattered around like cookie crumbs at a sleepover, I would prefer to do it all myself, thanks all the same. ;)

BassViper
31st Jan 2007, 17:49
catsuit&ponytail:

Yup!

It's a matter of software principle with me and a sign of good robust programming to allow the USER to choose when and where to save.

When the programmers choose this for you, It can only ever mean that they just might be afraid of a bug you might find when you hit that F6 key at some point THEY might not have anticipated.

Robust game programming allows the user to save ANYTIME at the user's discretion.

Other than that tho, TRL is still fun.

Lunideth
31st Jan 2007, 18:43
BassViper:

This is offtopic, but since you like so much doom here are links to speed demo (Speed demo = complete game as fast as possible).

DOOM on Nightmare: (To download videos press on time and there select quality.)
http://speeddemosarchive.com/Doom.html

DOOM II on Nightmare( Select quality):
http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?Doom2_SS_NM_2956

Final DOOM TNT on Ultra Violence (Select Quality):
http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?FinalDoom_TNT-Evilution_UV_SS_5534

Final DOOM Plutonia on Ultra Violence (Select Quality):
http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?FinalDoom_Plutonia_UV_SS_4111

BassViper
31st Jan 2007, 19:15
lunideth:

Thanx.

That's excellent stuff and I've saved the links.

Truth is, I've never been a "speed runner" per se. You only get like 3% of kills and 0% of secrets and rewards.

I've always preffered to take out ALL the baddies, get the rewards and find the secrets. I guess I don't consider getting thru games real fast and evading the action to be the real fun of them. I'd rather take 'em all on in true FPS fasion.

I play TRL that way too tho it's more a 3rdPS when the fights come down. Besides, you can NEVER out run a "Boss" and get away in ANY game worth it's salt. You HAVE to take it on.

But the Doom ARE fun to watch since I've covered all that ground that's in them and get a kick out of seeing how others have done it.

Peace and Thanx again.

shirl123
1st Feb 2007, 16:53
I like being able to save early and save often, it's a mantra. I do NOT like being forced to save where someone else thinks I should. Ever. It doesn't matter to me if save points are scattered around like cookie crumbs at a sleepover, I would prefer to do it all myself, thanks all the same. ;)

I couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:
it did bother me on TRL, but not too much because it was so easy. but if the future games will be harder, and they probably will - then it'll be...quite annoying.

BassViper
1st Feb 2007, 18:35
shirl123:

I guess I'm an "old school" hard core nut that prefers to have a smuch control over the game experience that I can muster,
which takes a bit of practice on each game. Even in TRL which is overal easy, but has some interesting moments that are
indeed a challenge at the time.

Old DOOM was a nasty relentless FPS that you either did your job or died. You COULD run it through real fast but I always
thought the fun of the game (and the point) was to do it all as it went by. Interaction, not evasion.

I also play "Half Life" which is a killer game, FPS style, blood guts and gore just like od Doom, but have panned the
authors and distributors for the lousy smart-ass tech support they provide and the requirement to actually sign onto
an on-line account to even get it to run. I consider this an invasion of my privacy even if the game is actually quite good
and more difficult than TRL.

As an old man, I see TRL as "cute", (no chauvanism intended), and fun in it's ability to hold my interest while trying
to determine what's around the next corner.

I think it's a little buggy, particularly when the screen displays overload the action controls, (the motorcycle ride along the train
in Kazistan for instance), and yes it does seem to be almost fool-proof on the jump sequences. Meaning that's it's really hard to
screw them up.

As an old retired Aerospace Software Engineer I get a kick out of trying to anaylize the thoughts and mentality of the
programmers who's personalities cannot help but wind up evident in the programming itself.

Pong was a simplistic peace of work based on the computer technology we had in the 1970's. But...

It may have only been a tennis game where opponents faced off on a table-top arcade unit, (singles or doubles), but no
matter how good you got at it, it was always able to keep up and be better than YOU the user could overrun by
your actions.

I see on the latest Games stuff shows on the tube, IT's actually coming back.

GOOD!!!

It's like chess. Only at the speed of light. One on one (or two on two). The better you play it, the better it responds.
Never saw it crash once in over 300 games my GF and I reigned as undefeated doubles champs of.

I think the diversion of computer gaming is truly addictive, but there's an saying that goes, "Dazzle me with your brilliance,
don't baffle me with your bull-s**t".

Make me think, make me work, make it tough and make it affordable.

And DON'T RUSH it to market just to satisfy the demands of your supervisor who probably can't program his way out
of a wet paper bag, and thinks "oops" is a comment made by people who make mistakes as opposed to an actual
software programming methodology along with "event driven".

If your SUP doesn't understand "multiple inheritence", "Instance of Class", or "distributed database",
get another SUP by quiting your job NOW!

Peace.

Lunideth
1st Feb 2007, 18:42
Dude relax this is just a forum... Dont take everything so personally...

BassViper
1st Feb 2007, 18:49
lunideth:

Nothing personal about any of that!

Just blowin' off a little steam about my assesment of the computer gaming industry these days. It's become a second class piece of marketing BS.

To a kindred spirit I hope.

YOU Relax.

Lunideth
1st Feb 2007, 19:18
Well it depends... try F.E.A.R and its expansion, Oblivion, Painkiller, Prey, Condemned.... All these are new games and all are great.

I like doom i played it on nightmare through few times. And about hl personally i dont like it... well i have all hls... but i dont like then very much... If yoy really want great FPS then F.E.A.R. i unbeatable.

shirl123
1st Feb 2007, 21:17
shirl123:

I guess I'm an "old school" hard core nut that prefers to have a smuch control over the game experience that I can muster,
which takes a bit of practice on each game. Even in TRL which is overal easy, but has some interesting moments that are
indeed a challenge at the time.

I got into the gaming-world since the early 90's, shortly before the good old CD-rom days. so I'm not exactly a n00b. ;)
2nd, I was actually complaining about TRL's puzzles (and difficulty level) here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=64320). so...if my wish comes true, then the check-points, no matter how much we'll have, will make everything more difficult...in a bad way (going back all the time, etc).
just like catsuit said, I don't want to be forced to save somewhere, and especially not in a challanging game!

as for "cute" - TRL has a "lighten up" atmosphere, unlike the rest of the series, which is nice and all...but it kind of makes you take it less seriously?

GoranAgar
2nd Feb 2007, 14:29
try F.E.A.R and its expansion
F.E.A.R. is a perfect game!

And I like to save my game whenever I feel like it, thankyouverymuch. :)

sherbs
9th Mar 2007, 00:30
Whatever the pros and cons of this save system, the consequence for me is that it is 'forcing' me to use a walkthrough.

I've come across a trap that is basically a cut scene followed by a split second where I'm back in control and Lara dies. I'd like to work the trap out but that would take quite a few tries, I reckon, and I'm fed up with clambering all over the place to pick up a silver statue before I even get to the trap.

My choices are - forget the statue, drive myself up the wall working the trap out or use a walkthrough. Walkthrough it is.

BassViper
9th Mar 2007, 15:12
Yup.

The save methodology with checkpoints is the only gripe I have with TRL.

Please let me save as I see fit, not where the programmers PRESUME I might want to.

babywrath
9th Mar 2007, 19:05
Do we loose some of the stunning visuals,or any part of TRL, if the creators allow us to save at will???God knows I don't have a clue how SOOOO much stuff got on to one disc!!!!(PC)

sherbs
9th Mar 2007, 23:44
OK, this is doing my head in now.

I just realized that for the checkpoint system to work, you have to do stuff in the 'correct' order. My heart sank when I went round a corner and Checkpoint flashed up. You see, I'd just left the room with the coat hangers without getting the silver statue as I thought I'd have a look around first. Of course the BOSS thing is next. I've had three goes at it so far and got a bit further each time before dying but I have to do the coat hanger thing each time as well. Cant' see me finishing this game:mad2:

Astara
10th Mar 2007, 06:01
OK, this is doing my head in now.

I just realized that for the checkpoint system to work, you have to do stuff in the 'correct' order. My heart sank when I went round a corner and Checkpoint flashed up. You see, I'd just left the room with the coat hangers without getting the silver statue as I thought I'd have a look around first. Of course the BOSS thing is next. I've had three goes at it so far and got a bit further each time before dying but I have to do the coat hanger thing each time as well. Cant' see me finishing this game:mad2:
???
You are allowed to go backwards...unless you've crossed the bridge and had the bridge burned behind you -- but so you get to the checkpoint -- about mid-hallway, if I remember. Just go back and drop back down -- just reverse your climbing steps. You can still get the silver.

Another thing -- after you've finished the level -- you can replay a level and the treasures/statues you missed will still be there. Any you've picked up will be gone, but the one's you missed -- still there.

Hey, if you're fast enough, you can maybe do the time-trial and grab the silver on the way...piece of cake getting around that room...:whistle: ...right...:rolleyes:

sherbs
10th Mar 2007, 10:37
Of course I can go back. The point is that with this save system, I can't choose to save just before the bridge after getting the statue.
Fair enough, they give you a checkpoint just before the bridge, which makes sense BUT if you haven't already got the statue, it's pointless. It means that everytime I reload I have to turn around, go back to the room, clamber about the coat hangers and walls and then go back to the bridge where I die in a few seconds. Rinse, repeat. It quickly gets very tedius.

munchkin
10th Mar 2007, 12:27
Of course I can go back. The point is that with this save system, I can't choose to save just before the bridge after getting the statue.
Fair enough, they give you a checkpoint just before the bridge, which makes sense BUT if you haven't already got the statue, it's pointless. It means that everytime I reload I have to turn around, go back to the room, clamber about the coat hangers and walls and then go back to the bridge where I die in a few seconds. Rinse, repeat. It quickly gets very tedius.

Or you could just replay the level and pick, up the awards you missed the next time through. thats what most folks do/have done. :)

You want frustrating saves Play TR1 on the PSone ... :)

beccaxx

Astara
14th Mar 2007, 14:14
I had another thought on the save rational I wasn't sure I conveyed earlier.

Something that keeps nagging at me while playing is that having Lara "die" is pointless in the game other than for "sadistic value". No? Is there another point for dying? If the sadistic value is your motivation, then yes. arbitrary save is better -- gives you more control over the victim to more uniquely torture them.

But I'm just guessing most of us prolly don't want to think that's our motivation. If it is, I'm in deep denial! So just a "WAG", but maybe Lara dies because we've done something "wrong". We've made a bad turn, move, decision...whatever, or it was just our day to be the spot under one of those boulders. But I'm thinking this game is an outgrowth of an "Adventure" type game -- a puzzle solve & maze. It has some action and shootouts which are sometimes just fun, but other times require a little bit of "strategy"...another aspect of solving a puzzle.

But when we die, it's supposed to be a "bad thing" **** :o :( :eek: How is it a "bad" thing? Suppose when you died, the game restarted you at virtually the same square (or as close to it to give you some other way to get through). Would death really be a "penalty"? It would be more like "lose turn, repeat".

For death to have a meaningful badness associated with it, they _they_ could require our screen to go dark for a moment of silence -- maybe a random 1-15 seconds -- they could play sad music...:( ...etc. Or maybe have it add a half a second for each time you die to the wait time.
Now admit it. The game goes black for 15-20 seconds eachtime you die, and people would be really annoyed -- a total waste of your time. Even if they played entertainment, a forced "timeout" would still be pretty boring for game play. No?

So how else can we penalize in a meaningful way? Can't really remove HP's or ammo each time -- might have run out and getting through some areas of Legend on 0 HP's would make it a bit more challenging (if not impossible...). So something else...probably too expensive or weird to "age" Lara by a year each time she dies...imagine ending the game with a 150 yr. old litch-like, shapely skeleton in shorts....:nut:

The only thing that is remotely doable that I can think of without coming up with something complete different and weird that's just used in death is penalizing you so that you have to start at the beginning of an approach or beginning of a sequence of a puzzle.

Another aspect is where do you allow a save? Middle of a battle? What's a "battle" -- some of them like in the first level, you can boulder the first few (or not), then another group comes, that you can deal with or not, then another guy before the vine, ...and different ones at the temple base. So do you allow a save anywhere in that sequence?

Much of the damage enemies do to you and you do to enemies is determined by "chance". Against the UE at the end -- I had the occasion to have rotten luck and the UE get off a triple blast before I could get to my feet and move -- and the force of the triple knocked me clean off the plateau. :eek: Equally rarely, would be killing the UE and using up no HP's. In a similar vein, getting by the water dragon in England if you have zero HP's going into the battle certainly makes it more challenging -- not impossible, but, on Hard, not always the easiest task.

By being able to save in the middle of a battle -- you can easily gain an unfair advantage in the combat system. Maybe you get lucky and zap the UE or the dragon twice, early on, and have no damage and have used no HP's. What a great place for a save!. Now if you die, you only have to outlast for half the normal number of kills (2 instead of 4). It's unfair -- you may have all your HP's, but the enemy got unlucky the first two rounds.

It would be like playing a softball game. After the 4th inning, you are ahead 10-zip. Imagine if you saved the "game" and always started future games with a 10 point advantage and the game was shortened to 3 innings. Your odds of winning would be much higher -- in each contest, you'd repeat from your last save, when by whatever luck, you have one half the game with out a scratch on yourself. When you restart the battles from that point, you'll always have a built advantage that you would virtually never be duplicable in real life. The only way to make the "challenge" fair is to put you back at the beginning of the start of a "challenge sequence". It would make the game way too easy -- no challenge. Play each move, save, make next move -- if good, save, if not redo. That's the penalty of "dying"?

Not much of a penalty. As much as we hate it -- putting us back to the beginning of some "sequence" -- it's a way of dealing out some punishment associated with dying. It's a way of training until you get some specific sequence down, from start to end w/o dying.

Maybe a goal is to make it through each sequence (checkpoint -2 - checkpoint) without dying. Breaking the sequence down into multiple steps isn't the same "difficulty level" as solving the whole sequence at once, without dying.

Does any of that make sense?

The main thing that bothers me at times, is the lightness of death -- not penalty -- unless you buy into the having to repeat boring segments to death, sometimes is, maybe, the penalty?

A*a

RuumTaedor
15th Mar 2007, 05:22
Interesting comments about saving. I agree with you, BassViper, my vote is for saving when I wish. I'd like to expand on that with a couple of my own comments.

You have a lot of good points, Astara. I agree that breaking down the sequence into small steps makes it easier. Perhaps saving when I want gives me an unfair advantage, but I prefer to think of it as auto-adjusting the skill level. When I play the older Tomb Raider games, I save occassionally as most people would. If I die, I go back a short distance to my previous save. Lets say I have to make 10 increasingly difficult jumps on the tops of 10 pillars. First I'll save my game. When I attempt the jumps, lets say I make 4 jumps then die. Lets say I eventually make 8 jumps then I die after repeated attempts. Apparently, I'm just not accurate enough for the last couple of jumps, and I'm getting bored of making the same 8 jumps. So what do I do? I start saving after every jump. In this way, I can make it to jump 8, and concentrate on jump 8 instead of all jumps. This would allow me to pass the 10 jumps. Why don't I always save after a couple steps, you might ask. Do you know how much of a pain it is to save after every turn or jump when I want to spend time exploring not saving. However, during sections that I find tough, saving where I want allows me to progress. So, the good players would whizz through a problem area, whereas I would take twice as long by saving after every move, the point being I could continue instead of having to resort to a skip level cheat.

Now, how about a battle scenario. I understand what you mean by an unfair advantage during a battle with 3 baddies, for example. However, if that's what it takes to get me past the 3 baddies, I'll save after each one. My goal would be to get through the 3 baddies alive. If I wanted to get through the 3 baddies with maximum health, even with the saves it would mean replaying the individual baddies multiple times (which would be boring) until I had the health I wanted.

The bottom line is that I'm going to finish a game one way or another. I would prefer to use the unfair advantage of saving where I want, so I can still experience the entire game, rather than resort to a skip level cheat or a bullet-proof cheat. For example, in Bolivia Redux, there was just no way I could defeat Amanda in one session. I got close, but I couldn't do it. As you mentioned, Amanda's triple combos were brutal. I ended up using some cheat so I wouldn't take damage. That was the only way I could view the final scene.

Whoa, I haven't done a long-winded post like that for a while. I'm done (for now).

Astara
15th Mar 2007, 10:18
The bottom line is that I'm going to finish a game one way or another. I would prefer to use the unfair advantage of saving where I want, so I can still experience the entire game, rather than resort to a skip level cheat or a bullet-proof cheat. For example, in Bolivia Redux, there was just no way I could defeat Amanda in one session. I got close, but I couldn't do it. As you mentioned, Amanda's triple combos were brutal. I ended up using some cheat so I wouldn't take damage. That was the only way I could view the final scene.


Hmmm... I can see if the game is that difficult... but many people complained this TRL was "too short" or "too easy". How long did you take to go through the game the first time? I was around 100 hours on the game clock over maybe 6-7 weeks of real time? Also saves don't have to be complicated. I tried Oblivion -- they provide a 1 key (F5) quicksave. So you can save every step if you wanted. (It's necessary, the game crashes alot, and it doesn't suspend well like TRL does -- it would often hang and even crashed the machine once. TRL rarely crashes -- and almost always it's when I try to use the close-window function rather than exit through the game menus.

So game saves could be made simple enough to do every step.

My complaints about the UE(amanda) at the end and the cycles in kazakstan are still valid today. When I play on "hard", I usually die several times before getting through (more on the motorcycle, less w/amanda).
Amanda was one place where after having made it through on easy and medium, I was glad to have the Damage-proof-cheat so I could
play many rounds w/Amanda -- learning to fight her -- But many rounds, I meant I take her down a few, then let her heal back up, then down, then heal...back and forth probably spent 6-8 hours just "toying" with her...>:-> :rolleyes: -- but seriously practicing, dodging, rolling, etc. then revert to normal status and go a few...last time, I thought I might have to restart the level -- only had 2 HP's -- but played the "position" the game had dealt me -- and surprise, I finally (not before taking a few practice deaths :whistle: ), I polished her off with an HP and full health to spare! :cool: . Almost everytime, though on "hard" playing through both motorcycle segments -- I almost never get through it in one sitting. Thank goodness they have the break in the middle there!

On medium, it's not difficult -- and I think that's the same difficulty level as the time trials. But I have ADHD anyway -- so if I got too bored, I found something else to do for a while. I eventually made it through. Now, it's not anywhere nearly so difficult. Made it through an entire game (treasures+timeTrials) in as little as 8+ hours on game clock
(with the treasure gathering on "difficult"). Getting the mansion complete after getting all the level 1 treasures will get you bonuses on your pistols a level earlier than otherwise.

Maybe a difference is that I have alot of other things I can do on the computer, and Lara was a diversion. So if I got stuck, rather than using a cheat in frustration, I just gave up until I got stuck in my work or similar -- then go back to TRL and vent my frustrations there in a different way. I even broke up game play with breaks to read books (I read books in the middle of reading my books too, so my books take a while too; :-)). Keep jumping back to more repeat sessions with a stuck point -- and eventually would get through.

Sometimes those 'stuck' points still stick me for a while. But the point isn't to get through them by any means. The point is to rehone my skills in getting through the hard parts. :-)

So guess I'm saying it may have to do with how you play the game and how much spreading it out is difficult for you...? (by circumstance, and disposition)

A*a

RuumTaedor
15th Mar 2007, 13:49
Hmmm... I can see if the game is that difficult... but many people complained this TRL was "too short" or "too easy".

Legend WAS too short and too easy. I was giving my reasons why I prefer to save where I wish, I wasn't complaining that Legend was too long or too difficult. I completed Legend, except for the final battle, on my own, in spite of having to go down that same freakin' hallway with every attempt of the boulder run. I know that part of my problem was my PC. It was OK for most of Legend, but in the final battle, it was, shall we say, less than perfect. I made the mistake of starting on hard, and I wasn't about to start over again. Believe me, I did not give up the last battle easily before resorting to a cheat, and I wanted to see the last scene. If I could have saved during the battle, you bet I would have.

I don't remember the gameplay hours (probably more than average), but I spent a couple of months a bit each day.

When I play, I make every effort to play the way a game was intended to be played. However, if I'm really stuck, I am thankful for Stella (or numerous other sites), as I don't have lots of free time.

BassViper
17th Mar 2007, 13:21
Yeah that boulder run down the hallway in Ghana trips a lot of people up, especially since the game seems to want you to do what actually DOESN'T work. At least on the PC that is.

We've posted the solution to it several times here, but my wife hasn't looked it up yet and I'm not telling her unless she asks.

We both like to figure things out the hard way and don't use cheats, but it would be nice to be able to save just AFTER the cut scene where she gets the verbal heads-up. That way, solving the puzzle would not involve having to run down the hallway and hear the cut scene every time you fail to make it.

LisaB1962
17th Mar 2007, 20:55
The thing that bugged me most about Legend saves was the "surprise" save in the that there was nothing to distinguish a checkpoint from any other spot in the level. I don't like saving involuntarily. I want an icon to denote a checkpoint, or make it an official save point. And I want to be able to restart a level regardless of whether I've completed that level. Since Legend allowed you to shoot out the exit platforms in Nepal (thus leaving you with NO exit after you obtain Excalibur) it would have been very handy to restart rather than having to replay the prior level to get to the beginning of Nepal.

Saving anywhere a la TR2 (I'm mostly a console player) is my preference, and although it might seem like an unfair advantage in battles, I agree most people don't save in the middle of battles or difficult platforming sequences until they're failed repeatedly and are just ready to make some progress.

chipfryer
18th Mar 2007, 17:14
I have to say that although I hate the fact that you cannot save anywhere at any time I think its rather logical. At least I've not found my self wandering around aimlessly like in other versions. My beef is with Bosses. I hate em. :lol: