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Harvest4
29th Jan 2007, 01:19
I do fine when I am on the Japanese side and can easily sink the US carriers and help win the game as airforce, but when I tried playing the US my carriers drop like flies from subs and those torp bombers. Is there some strategy you can use to defend them?

gzr_groundhog
29th Jan 2007, 02:34
that has been my experience also :eek:

Memnoch
29th Jan 2007, 02:42
But them behind/between the islands, and make sure you have wildcats around to intercept any dive/torpedo bombers well before they come within attack distance of your ship.

imnotcanadian
29th Jan 2007, 02:54
I have way to much trouble with the carriers. Nine torpedo bombers hitting it broadside will take one down. You could do that in two sweeps and have fighter cover in the proccess. Send two flights of fighters to occupy the fighters,then send in four flights of torp bombers (the one extra wing is incase the AI misses on the torp run). BINGO!! Carriers sunk. If any of you have played me ('canadian is my ingame name) then I have employed this tactic almost every time,and it has yet to fail me. Only once have I had to send three waves of four torp bombers.

Back to the carriers...I have only won once with the U.S. I sent up six flights of fighters to cover me while I scooted to the islands. In the meantime,I had a cruiser positioning itself for AA screens near my carriers,two battleships and a sub were making their way towards the enemy fleet. Once I got my carriers to the islands, I left up three wings of fighters,sent out two squadrons of divebombers for the shipyards,and one flight of torp bombers to help out with naval threats. My divebombers and battleships took out the docks eventually. After that I committed half of my fighters to cover my now wounded carriers,and the other half to cover my battleships as they made way towards the airfields. An hour after the battle started all of their land based facilities lay in flames.

Bravo1
29th Jan 2007, 16:12
Last night I was using the torpedo planes on my way to sink the carriers and to my surprise this guy positioned the carrier on it's right side the little island packed with AAA installation and on the other side he positioned 2 ships one behind the other one and completely covering the left side of the hulk.

Basically I could not deploy torpedoes because there was no room to hit the carrier. The only naked area was the flight deck and the back of the carrier. By the time I managed to get at least one plane out of 3 I was already intercepted by fighters patrolling the area or by the island AAA and the 2 ships next to the carrier. I found to be a b!tch to the get the job done. I sent waves and waves of squadrons with very little effect.

Picture myself running from fighters on my Six, then the incoming flak from the 2 ships and island. It was like movie like scene. I finally managed to drop a torpedo directly to the top of the flight deck.

I wrote that tactic down ;)

Adolfz15
29th Jan 2007, 19:54
Hide them behind island and get 2 fletchers (best AA) to cover u

It3llig3nc3
30th Jan 2007, 03:52
Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to play on the internet due to connection issues only tried the demo on LAN - against myself.

A few observations however on the topic:

1. If you read WWII or even post WWII naval tactics around carriers it is always strongly emphasized that the carrier ALONE is always defenseless against air strikes. A typical carrier "task force" has several components to deploy protection for the "queen" unit - the carrier itself. In real life this defense is layered like an onion.
-->Long range scanning of intruders - that's typically the job of airplanes (post WWII the AWACS) in WWII the reconnaissance planes.
-->Then comes the cruisers and maybe a sub forward front of the carrier in the expected "danger" zone.
-->Around the carrier there are several destroyers (WWII) and similar units providing AA and anti-sub defence.
-->This is "topped" with the CAP planes. The trick is that in the real-life model the CAP planes are deployed as soon as enemy is spotted by the reconnaissance or the forward units - NOT when they are already close to the carrier!

One very important difference between WWII and modern (post) warfare is that the efficiency of the reconnaissance was much less efficient. (no satellite images, ultra long range radar, AWACS, etc..)
So the WWII carrier tactic was more or less the "sneaking" strategy - whoever first found the enemy's "home plate"'s had a significant advantage: was able to focus an air-strike to that while the other was still in the "search" mode.
After all the US won the critical Midway battle only because they knew in advance WHEN and roughly from WHERE the strike will come. Their carriers however remained hidden for a long time - this is why the US was capable of pushing more than 10 air strikes against the 4 Japanese carriers before the US units were even located.

2. In the game unfortunately not everything is like in real life:
-->The number of units available in the game (especially ships) is far less than needed for a proper "defense shield" around the carrier
-->I might be wrong but I haven't been able to find a way to create formations and control multiple ship units as a "group"
-->It looks to me that the maps are relatively small, plus the strategic objectives are very limited and focused so the hide and seek tactic is not really possible - almost only frontal attacks.
-->The game favors the air force far more than the real experience shows. Against an AI ship (even a destroyer that supposed to be strong on AA defence) a plane stands great chances of torpedoing...
-->The game is obviously fast paced - and it has a disadvantage: in my experience the RELATIVE speed difference between naval and air units is far less than in real life (ships gets to destinations far sooner than you would expect based on how long it takes for an airplane to get there)

3. My approach after all this would be - in line with other recommendations - to avoid putting the carrier into the middle of the battle. I have yet to figure out my style and strategies but it looks to me awfully expensive to protect it compared to hiding it into a corner somewhere...
I like the idea of putting the carrier near to an island and land based AAA units - however it's a "rape" on reality as the entire idea of the carrier is to establish an air-strike platform far from land... :-)

I'm a little bit worried now that the entire game play is going to bend towards fast paced shooting rather than strategies and tactics.

I secretly hoped that the battlefield is going to be much larger - just like in the Silent Hunter series - and when the opposing units come close proximity they fight off the battle... It does not seem to be the case here...?

Nemo_54
30th Jan 2007, 07:32
I might be wrong but I haven't been able to find a way to create formations and control multiple ship units as a "group"
You most definitely can form ship formations, I do it all time when commanding my BBs. Simply select the "support" ships in map view and right click on the "lead" ship, then press and hold Alt + S to set your formation. If only more people knew how to do this.

Regarding carrier protection, I usually just steer my carrier behind the island. Gives plenty of distance between you and the enemy airfields. Though, as a CV player I can be somewhat of a pain to take down. I've already had a couple of games hearing the "man this carriers one tough sob" comments (usually when I'm one of the last players left. I'll attribute most of my "toughness" to the fact that I control my planes almost exclusively from the nav map (unless its a bombing run against a ship) since I can't get my joystick working. Therefore I'm pretty much controlling my carrier at all times. So I'm able to do some fancy maneuvering and AA work (not many players do this) to avoid those torpedo bomber swarms. I think my best torpedo bomber swarm dodging record so far is 4.

ErikNL
30th Jan 2007, 09:45
Funny, for me it is exactly the other way around!

I played Japanes one time but play almost everytime US.

When playing US the most troubles that I get, are submarines or other ships chasing me down. Deploying enough fighter coverage is not so hard to destroy incoming flights. Also keeping your carrier moving constantly also helps.

However: playing as Japanese did not work at all for me! My fighters were dominated everytime by the other fighters, so I quickly ran out of planes:S
Perhaps I am missing something important playing as Japanese, but I dunno what, especially because playing as US seems much easier.

Harvest4
30th Jan 2007, 15:14
I always finds japs to be easier...if the enmy has a crappy air force you can easily wipe out their carriers with torps. Usually though I focus on destroying the US shipyards first. Once those are gone I spend my time defending my shipyard and cleaning up whats left of the enemy ships.

Then my fellow navy boys go in and set their course for the enemy carriers which I cover with my fighters.

It3llig3nc3
31st Jan 2007, 15:31
You most definitely can form ship formations, I do it all time when commanding my BBs. Simply select the "support" ships in map view and right click on the "lead" ship, then press and hold Alt + S to set your formation. If only more people knew how to do this.

Regarding carrier protection, I usually just steer my carrier behind the island. Gives plenty of distance between you and the enemy airfields. Though, as a CV player I can be somewhat of a pain to take down. I've already had a couple of games hearing the "man this carriers one tough sob" comments (usually when I'm one of the last players left. I'll attribute most of my "toughness" to the fact that I control my planes almost exclusively from the nav map (unless its a bombing run against a ship) since I can't get my joystick working. Therefore I'm pretty much controlling my carrier at all times. So I'm able to do some fancy maneuvering and AA work (not many players do this) to avoid those torpedo bomber swarms. I think my best torpedo bomber swarm dodging record so far is 4.


Thanks for the hint Nemo, I'm getting better with ship formations. It's a little bit difficult to set up the desired formation quickly (so you don't miss any action), but once it's in place it's great.

I'm getting some experience under my belt and just like you said keeping the carriers away / behind the US islands helps a lot. I only got some damage due to a sneaky submarine but it was not able to finish the job :-)

What somewhat annoys me is the fact that the discovery of enemy units is very easy - I would say too easy! As long as you have planes up in the air almost the entire battlefield is visible hence detecting enemy units is a "piece of cake". This is a weakness as strategical maneuvering of the ship units becomes very limited. It does not matter if you plan a flank attack vs. frontal as everything is visible.

What matters in this game is the concentration of forces for full frontal attack. Beyond that it is a skill question if you can drive the planes or ships more efficiently than the opponent to get the hits faster.

I'm also very annoyed that my carrier defense Wildcats suffers an awful lot of damage while taking out and equal number of unprotected torpedo bombers. (well unless I take them over from the AI)

Back to carrier protection - I have an open question:
Based on your experience what is better: keeping the carriers together or moving them on a separate paths forcing the enemy to split it's attention - obviously at a cost of using more fighters to defend...?

EuT.be
31st Jan 2007, 16:14
I keep it simple as I've won more games when beeing US then JPN. I'm mostly a fleet carrier as the only that could sink my carriers are the BB's. I just, as the game starts, launch 2 fletchers. Put them in formation and go directly in straight line between the carriers and airfields. From there on I'm shooting out all incomming plains whilst approaching with the 2 fletchers towards the airfields. Where your teamm8 uses the BB/destroyer in formation to protect the shipyards. Yet, dont forget that you'll be receiving incomming pressure from the airfields because you're a thread to them and taking down their plains which are onroute towards the carriers! The only thing you wish then is the full support of your carriers as they, when done right, can bomb the targets and send each 1 set of wildcats for support

a Sub near the carriers, sacrifice a fletcher (or leave formation if you're shipyard is down) and hunt the sub down! Just ask your carriers to zigzag and to keep on moving. (I know, sub is faster then the carrier, but the fletcher is there quickly)

My fletcher formation, used well, can sink a BB easely thanks to the multi weaponry! The important thing is to make and keep a formation since both work fine toghetter as you can more easy switch between ships when damaged or in best firing range!

I was able to get a score of 5000 with only 2 fletchers and shooting out all the plains and sinking subs in order to defend the carriers!

kamikazirob
8th Feb 2007, 20:41
great posting on ship formations and how to protect the carriers. Solomon island is a hard mission for the US side but diffently winable. Protect you carrier by using other ships or Fighters.. sent out fighter to intercept early and move carriers back toward the rest of the fleet..

Carrier battle is all about managing your air superiority. Especialy early on when your fleet is far away from you.

Playing the US side, I like to rush with two DD to join up with carriers. Keep sending up fighter to intercept incoming bombers. and engage the Jap fleet with BBs. You have to be patient with the US to gain victory. Have the Japs fight on your side of the map. You can reinforce faster and they will have to travel great distance to reach you. Once you gain air superiority, move your fighters into Japanese side of the map. Don't fight over their bases, for the AA guns will tear you to bits. sent up dive bombers to elimnated Japanese naval base and move in with your remaining fleets after you clear the Japanese fleets

All in all, its easier said then done.. but its possible. Good luck all and see you out there.

Frey
8th Feb 2007, 21:00
It seems most of you are missing something... :scratch:

Carriers should not be alone in the ocean. Instead of sending those destroyers and cruisers on hunting missions, they should be used to screen the carriers.

One ship on either side of a carrier should protect it from incoming torpedos, but more importantly, put up a gauntlet of AA fire that would be very tough to get through.

Of course, this needs a player with the smaller ships that would be able to handle the relative boredom of setting up a defensive position on the CV and sit there most of the match waiting for action...

**EDIT** !!!
I read the posts again, and all of you are talking about ship escorts..... MY BAD!!!

Vindicator
9th Feb 2007, 15:43
Ya , I kind of like the idea of being able to protect your ship with the island. BUT on the other hand, its very unrealistic that a Carrier would run for island cover in a mid ocean battle. I guess the real problem I have with it is ... if its that effective.. you have everyone doing the same thing. So every fight turns into the same thing over and over. Maybe they should put a feature in where carriers would have to stay alittle farther out from the island because of the water depth.

whoopy91
9th Feb 2007, 21:29
there are no strategy's you just need too adapt too the situetion

imnotcanadian
10th Feb 2007, 04:43
there are no strategy's you just need too adapt too the situetion

This is called tactics. There realy isn't a RTS out there...they should be more appropiatly named RTT's (real time tactics). Strategy is what you do before the battle,tactics is your adaptation to your surrounding and situation.

whoopy91
10th Feb 2007, 15:09
thats what im saying, you are just using long words too look smart

Bunnyhop
14th Feb 2007, 21:38
If you're playing the demo map on US running a CV...your best defensive strategy is to park yourself on the southern tip of the island containing the US shipyards.

For three reasons

a) For a sub to get to you, they have to initially surface in the shallow waters ...giving your ships (and planes) easy access.

b) Makes it a lot harder for the AI planes to sneak in on you to do torpedo runs...it can be done but they have to fly OVER the hilly land and the AA installations, making them easier targets to all AA/ships and they also have less maneuverability to get into position to make their drop.

c) Makes it virtually impossible for enemy ships to get to you without going THROUGH your navy first....unless they want to flank around which means taking their ships out of the battle for a long time...and if it's anything but battleships (which then means like taking 30 minutes of a detour) a couple torp squads will eliminate them when they get anywhere close...all the while your Navy can crush the opposition and destroy the Japanese shipyards.

Employing this strategy has always made CVs 10x harder to kill for me when I'm playing on the Jap side, and usually ensures my survivability when I'm playing US.

FreeloaderUK
16th Feb 2007, 14:27
i always make sure ive got a Destroyer protecting my Carrier- that way its useful against submarines, enemy Destroyers & puts up extra AA against enemy planes.

Armistead
18th Mar 2007, 04:59
I always put a dd right behing my carrier. If a sub pops up, I can attack right away, rather than having to turn around to go at it. Also, the sonar field is better, facing front. If I have a CA or such, I will put them on the side facing the enemy carrier.

Take control of your AA when needed. The AI sucks at shooting down planes or even engaging quick enough. Get all your ships AI started. Once you lock on and start them, they do much better job.

Always send a group of planes with charges after the subs. It's almost a done deal , as you know where they are and eventually they have to come up for air. Always best to get those subs out fast.

As others, get in the shallows at the tip, near all the AA guns. They really help out. Subs can't dive in the shallows. Funny, subs will often end up on your carrier deck if they are close in the shallows. Nothing like having a sub on your deck. Obvious,you may have to run, if you lose your ship yards, you have to run from the BB's.

Most come looking at the direction of your planes, so I will send them out, before I turn them in to battle, so they appear to be coming from a different direction. I think it's best on some maps to use your carriers to support others. Always put cap on shipyards. If possible, mass attack their yards.

Sometimes, I have a friend drive a CA right beside me and take torps if needed. I've done this to help save the Yamato when needed.

SonderKommando
10th Apr 2007, 21:22
Have a dd by your carrier at all times to detect subs.

SonderKommando
10th Apr 2007, 21:23
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Flying CanOpener
11th Apr 2007, 00:33
I usually protect my carriers by not playing them. I'm absolutely awful at them. Yet people still let me play them. If I join your team, keep me away from them for your own good!

Dogmeatz
11th Apr 2007, 02:03
I find CV's better for me than Airfields.

1. CV's can run away from a BB, airfields ain't quite so mobile. Plus CV's have damage control that if microed can take a lot more damage (ie bombs) than Airfields.

2. Group CV's set 3 men on pumps from start, and move them to Shallow water (like in harbour at Solomon) This combines AA of yards and CV's, and stops Subs sneaking up to them (to shallow). If major air raids still come get on AA (much more effective than AI AA)

3. If the enemy fleet gets in range run Carriers south (while swearing at the FLeet players who should have nailed the enemy ships by then hehe), 2 CV's can still kill slow BB's before they close, and may be lucky and get a raid in an take out there Yards.

Basically i find CV's more flexible and durable than Airfields, kinda balances Solomon since the Jap CA gets torps making it better than the US CA.

Note: As mentioned above an escort can be useful (on maps like Coral sea) but on Solomons every ship escorting the CV's weakens the main Fleet that will be heading Nth, the Fleet on FLeet battle being the most determinant as to who will win imho.

Armistead
11th Apr 2007, 03:49
on solomons, i think it's best to split the carriers, one behind the island and the other southwest. If one ship is chasing you, he can't get both. Almost always both carriers are behind the island and when a ship catches them, he has them both. Splitting can give you more time, if the yards are out. Solomons is all about the bb yard though, once it's out for one side, game over

ryanwk
5th May 2007, 15:00
I do fine when I am on the Japanese side and can easily sink the US carriers and help win the game as airforce, but when I tried playing the US my carriers drop like flies from subs and those torp bombers. Is there some strategy you can use to defend them?


Answer: Get your carriers as far away from the enemies as possible and run like hell. :thumbsup: