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View Full Version : Nosgoth looking pretty much like Monsters vs Armed Humans?



Kalideos
14th Oct 2013, 22:53
From what I've seen so far, it seems that ranged weapons are exclusively for human classes. It also seems that competitive melee is exclusive to the Vampires. With that being said, is it fair to compare or imagine Nosgoth's potential multiplayer to maybe Colonial Marines' multiplayer in that it's monsters vs humans with guns/crossbows? Maybe Primal Carnage would be a better example although I never played it.

My point is maybe giving a mix of weapon options for both factions might enrich the experience as well as making the game more complex than just talons vs bows/bombs.

Reidbynature
15th Oct 2013, 00:09
While I'm a little sceptical myself of vampires only melee and humans only ranged it does seem that this is the core concept behind Nosgoth. As much as Psyonix may be interested in taking on feedback from the LoK community and others interested in the game I don't see them budging much on that concept.

Though from what I hear from fans who did manage to play the Alpha gameplay it does seem as though they found it enjoyable.

TendrilSavant
15th Oct 2013, 01:58
I wouldn't rule out weapons for vampires such as swords or spears (bound to a specific class later down the line maybe), but long range weapons would throw the balance out the window. If your worried about choosing between melee and ranged though I wouldn't worry. It's been stated that matches consist of two rounds, playing as a human and then as a vampire. So unless you're only playing deathmatch only (assuming the mode exists, and anything goes in it), you should get an equal amount of play with both.

Kalideos
15th Oct 2013, 21:45
If your worried about choosing between melee and ranged though I wouldn't worry. It's been stated that matches consist of two rounds, playing as a human and then as a vampire. So unless you're only playing deathmatch only (assuming the mode exists, and anything goes in it), you should get an equal amount of play with both.

So I checked out first 40 minutes of Primal Carnage by Force Strategy Gaming, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya2mm6iwiKs, and from your quote Tendril we can assume the game could be very similar which could mean Nosgoth might have the same problems. What do you think?

TendrilSavant
16th Oct 2013, 00:06
Thanks for the vid, just checked it out. Not sure you can compare the two games. First one is an Indie title (don't really know much about the devs) and the other by a dev that has shipped multiple titles. Not sure if that counts for much to you but the experience is relevant to me.

From the video, humans are powerful when grouped together spamming their weapons. Nosgoth will have much smaller teams, I think they said 5v5... so spamming shouldn't be an issue. Also, maps should be smaller to accommodate for that.

Other than that though, I can't really compare anything else since no gameplay footage for Nosgoth has been released yet.

On a side note, where are the feathers? Dinosaurs had feathers!

Kalideos
16th Oct 2013, 02:30
Ears and Feathers! Priority number one for us picky gamers lol. Anyway, yeah I guess I'm getting ahead of myself with such assumptions.

Psyonix_Eric
16th Oct 2013, 02:58
From what I've seen so far, it seems that ranged weapons are exclusively for human classes. It also seems that competitive melee is exclusive to the Vampires. With that being said, is it fair to compare or imagine Nosgoth's potential multiplayer to maybe Colonial Marines' multiplayer in that it's monsters vs humans with guns/crossbows? Maybe Primal Carnage would be a better example although I never played it.

My point is maybe giving a mix of weapon options for both factions might enrich the experience as well as making the game more complex than just talons vs bows/bombs.

Vampires do have ranged weapons, just not in the traditional sense that you're talking about. Even just in the trailer there is evidence of some of them, such as the Reaver's ability to pounce a human from range, the Sentinel being able to turn into what looks like a meteroid and smash into the ground, and the Tyrant being able to jump long distances and smash down. Skills like those are the vampire equivalent of ranged weapons.

Most of the game currently is based on the idea of the two sides being different in melee vs. ranged, but we haven't totally ruled out the idea of a melee human or a ranged vampire. As Reidbynature said, the idea of melee vs. ranged was always one of the core ideas behind Nosgoth.

Vampmaster
16th Oct 2013, 07:11
@Eric - What do you think about giving some vampires ways of pushing and pulling humans around the map? I was discussing an idea for the Zephonim where they could grab an enemy from a distance with their webbing. The person I spoke to considered that a ranged attack, but I don't think it would count as long as it didn't to any actual damage.

Psyonix_Eric
16th Oct 2013, 07:32
@Eric - What do you think about giving some vampires ways of pushing and pulling humans around the map? I was discussing an idea for the Zephonim where they could grab an enemy from a distance with their webbing. The person I spoke to considered that a ranged attack, but I don't think it would count as long as it didn't to any actual damage.
I'll speak for what I know of the gameplay (I'm an artist - Corey is the one who handles the gameplay side) since you specifically asked my opinion, but if Corey sees this he may have a different one.

The main issue I see with a vampire that can push and pull a human around the map is that no one likes to not be in control of their character. This was one of the major things that always comes up whenever we were developing abilities because, as an avid MMO player myself, I've always hated any form of crowd control in games. Standing there watching my character do something that I have no control of is frustrating to me and to many of the people working on the game. As such, every skill that exists in the game now that removes a player's abilities/movement/whatever has gone through many iterations and adjustments to their timing and to any counter skills. That's why things exist like a Tyrant's "Ignore Pain" skill breaking a bola.

We're already prototyping another vampire class right now and at the moment we're nowhere near talking about it. I'll pass along the idea though but I wanted to at least try to explain what our mindset has been so far. If it was something that happened quickly it may be a possibility but I don't want to promise anything other than that I'll bring it up as a suggestion.

Vampmaster
16th Oct 2013, 09:34
I'll speak for what I know of the gameplay (I'm an artist - Corey is the one who handles the gameplay side) since you specifically asked my opinion, but if Corey sees this he may have a different one.

The main issue I see with a vampire that can push and pull a human around the map is that no one likes to not be in control of their character. This was one of the major things that always comes up whenever we were developing abilities because, as an avid MMO player myself, I've always hated any form of crowd control in games. Standing there watching my character do something that I have no control of is frustrating to me and to many of the people working on the game. As such, every skill that exists in the game now that removes a player's abilities/movement/whatever has gone through many iterations and adjustments to their timing and to any counter skills. That's why things exist like a Tyrant's "Ignore Pain" skill breaking a bola.

We're already prototyping another vampire class right now and at the moment we're nowhere near talking about it. I'll pass along the idea though but I wanted to at least try to explain what our mindset has been so far. If it was something that happened quickly it may be a possibility but I don't want to promise anything other than that I'll bring it up as a suggestion.

No problem. I was just asking you because you were already talking about the melee vs ranged stuff. BTW, did you get to check my PM yet? I was trying to give someone feedback on some fan art and custom skin ideas and needed to know about the Razielim clothing for that.

EDIT: Although isn't the moving a character kind of the same thing the Razielim do when they pick an enemy up and drop them?

Reidbynature
16th Oct 2013, 16:11
Vampires do have ranged weapons, just not in the traditional sense that you're talking about. Even just in the trailer there is evidence of some of them, such as the Reaver's ability to pounce a human from range, the Sentinel being able to turn into what looks like a meteroid and smash into the ground, and the Tyrant being able to jump long distances and smash down. Skills like those are the vampire equivalent of ranged weapons.

Most of the game currently is based on the idea of the two sides being different in melee vs. ranged, but we haven't totally ruled out the idea of a melee human or a ranged vampire. As Reidbynature said, the idea of melee vs. ranged was always one of the core ideas behind Nosgoth.

I wonder if you could clear up something for me. Would you be interested in having melee variants of vampire classes and vice versa with humans? I believe that way you could keep the core gameplay aspect of strictly melee team vs ranged team battles, but be able to flip which team is melee and which is ranged (at least per individual rounds/battles).


Also, psst, human vampire worshippers on the vampires team. :whistle: Just a thought. lol

Vampmaster
16th Oct 2013, 16:28
I'll wait for Eric to reply, but I still think restricting half the characters to every other match is just making things needlessly complicated.

Psyonix_Eric
16th Oct 2013, 17:45
EDIT: Although isn't the moving a character kind of the same thing the Razielim do when they pick an enemy up and drop them?
Yes, it is. We have a few skills that involve disabling the other team but we've tried to be extremely mindful of them not feeling annoying and spammy to whoever is the person that is disabled. That's why I think it's worth bringing up as a discussion internally here, I just wanted to let you know why we've always been extremely cautious about those types of skills.


I wonder if you could clear up something for me. Would you be interested in having melee variants of vampire classes and vice versa with humans? I believe that way you could keep the core gameplay aspect of strictly melee team vs ranged team battles, but be able to flip which team is melee and which is ranged (at least per individual rounds/battles).
I think that might overcomplicate the situation. Anything is possible so I won't rule it out but it seems like it would be very confusing for a lot of people and it goes against the original design idea that is vampires = melee, humans = ranged.

TendrilSavant
16th Oct 2013, 21:02
I don't think it'll be needlessly complicated. Both sides need to cooperate with teammates to succeed, so the actual gameplay shouldn't feel too different. Also, wasn't there a mode were vampires and humans work together? Seems like this mode would be what most people would play in the long run.

In my opinion, melee v ranged works lore wise when you think about it. First you have to remember that Kain and Raziel aren't the prime example of what an average vampire is capable of (being the most OP characters in the lore).

It feels right for the lore of the world, sort of like a vampire arms race. Since vampires need to feed in combat to keep their strength up, it seems logical to master CQC skills to survive. On the other side, humans know that vampires need to get close; so their goal is to keep vampires at a distance to stay alive.

EDIT: Last statement moved to topic statement, makes more sense that way.

Reidbynature
16th Oct 2013, 21:14
I think that might overcomplicate the situation. Anything is possible so I won't rule it out but it seems like it would be very confusing for a lot of people and it goes against the original design idea that is vampires = melee, humans = ranged.

Ah right. Thanks for answering anyway.

Kalideos
16th Oct 2013, 22:51
We're forgetting about the great equalizer though aka magic which isn't that rare in Nosgoth or at so it would seem. When I think about a human melee class I imagine him or her using Malak like glyph armor with support magics like a 360 force push or an aura that reflects damage. I don't want a human who can hunt down or out run a vampire or anything lore breaking.

blueobelix
17th Oct 2013, 00:39
From what i am observing the devs are not willing to do any major modification even if, as preddicted they didn' t executed the alpha too enjoyable. Guys, nno offence here and no trolling but, are you willing to listen and apply any of our ideas? Or we are here just for the sake of " yes we are here to listen you, we are good guys and want to demonstrate we are open to our fans even if we wont follow any of your ideas" . Its true, no game developer did this, if you would follow them all it would be a scramblet game wich you cant undersgtand anything. But still you can still take in consideration some of them and apply to your vision. I saw some really good ideas around here, just on the forums, imagine outside

Psyonix_Eric
17th Oct 2013, 01:04
From what i am observing the devs are not willing to do any major modification even if, as preddicted they didn' t executed the alpha too enjoyable. Guys, nno offence here and no trolling but, are you willing to listen and apply any of our ideas? Or we are here just for the sake of " yes we are here to listen you, we are good guys and want to demonstrate we are open to our fans even if we wont follow any of your ideas" . Its true, no game developer did this, if you would follow them all it would be a scramblet game wich you cant undersgtand anything. But still you can still take in consideration some of them and apply to your vision. I saw some really good ideas around here, just on the forums, imagine outside

There have already been a few ideas that people have brought up in these forums that we've put into the queue of things to add/change.

What needs to be remembered is that while we're serious about taking feedback and ideas into consideration, some ideas are either too grand of an idea or they just don't fit into the scope of the game. They may be great ideas but if it doesn't fit in with Nosgoth then it may get passed on. Your idea of what is enjoyable may not be in line with what Nosgoth is about, and if that's the case then we still hope you give it a chance because for what it is we think it's fun (and many of the alpha players seem to have as well). Is it a single player game with a storytelling narrative and long, drawn-out cutscenes? No, it's not. Nosgoth is a different type of game than has previously been set in the world of Nosgoth.

I'm not entirely sure though where you're getting that we're not implementing people's ideas. We've had one alpha test so far and we got lots of good feedback from people. I'd say it's quite a bit too early to go saying that we're not listening to people when we have barely only started getting feedback.

blueobelix
17th Oct 2013, 17:52
There have already been a few ideas that people have brought up in these forums that we've put into the queue of things to add/change.

What needs to be remembered is that while we're serious about taking feedback and ideas into consideration, some ideas are either too grand of an idea or they just don't fit into the scope of the game. They may be great ideas but if it doesn't fit in with Nosgoth then it may get passed on. Your idea of what is enjoyable may not be in line with what Nosgoth is about, and if that's the case then we still hope you give it a chance because for what it is we think it's fun (and many of the alpha players seem to have as well). Is it a single player game with a storytelling narrative and long, drawn-out cutscenes? No, it's not. Nosgoth is a different type of game than has previously been set in the world of Nosgoth.

I'm not entirely sure though where you're getting that we're not implementing people's ideas. We've had one alpha test so far and we got lots of good feedback from people. I'd say it's quite a bit too early to go saying that we're not listening to people when we have barely only started getting feedback.

Yes, it' s premature to say you are not listening since i dont even know how nosgoth looks like since not anyone gets accepted into alpha. Unfortunately rumors are not very positive. I do really hope beta will be much better. Best regards.