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Kalideos
14th Oct 2013, 18:05
I was wondering how true to SR 1 Nosgoth might be? Will you have to impale, burn, expose, or submerge Vampires to get a kill. If so, that would sound like a huge advantage over humans for a pvp game. On the other hand having Vampires die once their Hp reaches zero would contradict SR 1. I'm willing to compromise by having vamps turn into a bunch of bats on death like Kain in blood omen or defiance.

romano473
14th Oct 2013, 18:43
Decapitation works as well, but I see your point. Not only you'd have to bring your enemy's health to 0%, you'd have to deal a finishing blow, otherwise the vampire will regenerate. Maybe something similar to executing the enemy in War of The Roses would do? To balance it out I'd do it this way:

Vampire: can get up after a few seconds of being struck down, while being very low on health can't attack (or attacks are debuffed), needs time to regenerate or feed to regain health and fighting capabilities.

Human: has to be actively helped by another teammate, this takes a few seconds, ends up with a percentage of his health back

I guess finishing off is not necessary if you deal a overkill of damage, either blowing someone's head off, burning them to a crisp, pummeling them to a pulp etc. There's no way you'd regenerate after all that.

Rahabthesecond
14th Oct 2013, 19:03
Guess (a little bit depended on the size of the teams) it might simpy work that a vampire stays immobile and lying flat for like 7 seconds if he's not killed by fire or beheading (exploding arrows or something). If the time is up a vampire stands up again with a low percentage of health. If a human manages to reach a immobile vampire he could either behead it with a knife (special move) which takes a little time or burn him to ashes (if he has a suitable weapon (flamethrower etc.)) or impale him with a stack which can be found arround the map (those can't be used in combat and only for execution) and is way faster than the beheading.

Vampmaster
15th Oct 2013, 00:11
Unfortunately, there's none on this in Nosgoth. Unless things have changed since the community event, the rule about "a vampire’s immortal flesh begins to close as soon as it is cleaved" has been suspended in order to keep the gameplay balanced.

It's not the first time something like that has been changed for gameplay reasons, though. Amy once admitted in a Q&A that the only reason the demons had no blood in Defiance was because it suited the gameplay better.

A few of us requested that enviro-kills or finishing moves be included, but we'll have to wait and see if that happens. Both the vampires and humans were hard to kill when they had the upper hand. If you're fighting one up close and don't have allies covering your back, you have no chance. Likewise, if you're a vampire and two or three humans are shooting you from a distance, then you better get running.

diuqSehT
15th Oct 2013, 00:52
Were there escape tricks for humans to get out of close combat? (Or any hint that these were coming?) Maybe some old-spice splashed in the vamp's eyes to stun while you retreat, or one of those dust clouds magicians use to disappear into. Maybe humans carry a tiny bell with them to give the vampire a tiny Ow when they ring it up close to his big big ear.

TendrilSavant
15th Oct 2013, 01:14
The retreating tactic sounds cool, but I would recommend it be class specific; maybe Alchemist only? Although, balancing this would be very crucial to not impact vampires too much; game design 101: players don't like control taken away from them mid combat.

Vampmaster
15th Oct 2013, 10:23
Were there escape tricks for humans to get out of close combat?

No, but I wish there was. I think I made a suggestion about using rope (humans) or webbing (Zephonim in they get added) to pull your buddies out of the fray. Oddly enough, the vampires were the ones with the tricks. I tried turning the Turelim to stone or the Dumahim's smoke ability (I know, I know... They could do with being swapped about to more appropriate clans) so I didn't get attacked while I fed on a dead human.

Phroster
15th Oct 2013, 19:34
It would be cool if they added a last stand moment for humans and vampires both.

Now you execute a human player, but the one who is downed cannot do anything anymore.
Vampires die instantly when they reach 0 HP.

Like other also said, I think this will make the game even better if implemented well, of course balance needs to be considered too.

Maybe adding some mechanic to the game for this would make it even better.

ZeroFernir
15th Oct 2013, 20:08
It would be cool if they added a last stand moment for humans and vampires both.

Now you execute a human player, but the one who is downed cannot do anything anymore.
Vampires die instantly when they reach 0 HP.

Like other also said, I think this will make the game even better if implemented well, of course balance needs to be considered too.

Maybe adding some mechanic to the game for this would make it even better.

That would look like that special infected zombies from LfD2 u.u

AlterRequiem
16th Oct 2013, 01:00
Decapitation works as well, but I see your point. Not only you'd have to bring your enemy's health to 0%, you'd have to deal a finishing blow, otherwise the vampire will regenerate. Maybe something similar to executing the enemy in War of The Roses would do? To balance it out I'd do it this way:

Vampire: can get up after a few seconds of being struck down, while being very low on health can't attack (or attacks are debuffed), needs time to regenerate or feed to regain health and fighting capabilities.

Human: has to be actively helped by another teammate, this takes a few seconds, ends up with a percentage of his health back

I guess finishing off is not necessary if you deal a overkill of damage, either blowing someone's head off, burning them to a crisp, pummeling them to a pulp etc. There's no way you'd regenerate after all that.

So basically Execution mode in Gears of War.

Psyonix DID make Gears multiplayer, lets not count that mechanic out from the beginning.

TendrilSavant
16th Oct 2013, 21:22
^ I can't remember where, but the devs stated that they thought about having Gears of War type executions but decided against it. They said it left the humans at a severe disadvantage having too hoof it to the fallen enemy to confirm the kill.

TenebraeAeterna
17th Oct 2013, 03:39
Would humans really have to hoof it?

Fire a flaming arrow, use a flame thrower, destroy the head...

All these things could be done from a distance, finishing moves when you have reduced the Vampire's health to 0. Perhaps you, as a human, could pin a vampire to the wall with a huge hulking crossbow that shot massive stakes and then use them as bait...waiting for his allies to come by and try to remove the stake so that he could resurrect and ambush them.

Vampires would have to get up close and personal, feeding off the humans mortally wounded body to permanently down them...otherwise they could be healed by an ally.

Fits with the theme of Vampires being melee and humans ranged.

TendrilSavant
17th Oct 2013, 04:27
Pinning a vampire to a wall to lure out his allies sounds like a legit strategy, but a frustrating game mechanic. No gamer likes to lose complete control of their character in a competitive match.

ZeroFernir
17th Oct 2013, 11:50
^ I can't remember where, but the devs stated that they thought about having Gears of War type executions but decided against it. They said it left the humans at a severe disadvantage having too hoof it to the fallen enemy to confirm the kill.

It was in the Q&A.


Would humans really have to hoof it?

Fire a flaming arrow, use a flame thrower, destroy the head...

All these things could be done from a distance, finishing moves when you have reduced the Vampire's health to 0. Perhaps you, as a human, could pin a vampire to the wall with a huge hulking crossbow that shot massive stakes and then use them as bait...waiting for his allies to come by and try to remove the stake so that he could resurrect and ambush them.

Vampires would have to get up close and personal, feeding off the humans mortally wounded body to permanently down them...otherwise they could be healed by an ally.

Fits with the theme of Vampires being melee and humans ranged.

I think that it could work only with killcams. Or nothing at all.

Sluagh
12th Dec 2013, 14:07
Thought I might res this thread as it poses some interesting question. I don't have any access to the game, but from what I've seen so far (very limited), the main way of killing vamps as humans seems to involve projectiles or flames, so this fits in fairly well with the lore, if slightly loosely. What do people think who've played it, does it feel satisfying and fitting with the series?

Spectre370
12th Dec 2013, 22:02
Realized that this thread existed, and that some simply solutions could be made.

Ranged executions could easily work for Humans against vampires. The general idea of a vampire hunter is to use weapons the vampire is weak to. The arrows can work like stakes, and with enough power, can behead a vampire. Flamethrowers, fire bombs, naphta, and many other options can be used to remove the general body of a vampire.

Now the main complaint is "players don't like to have no control". That should be an option. If you say, get staked to a wall, then you have two options, wait for help, or die. If you wait, you have a chance of revival, and thus not having your teams score effected in a death match. If you die, the enemy gets a kill. It is up to you, and with a good team, this can be crucial. As for things such as fire and beheading, you die, don't do that and you should be fine.

As for Vampires vs Humans, humans are generally fragile. I feel as if though a human should have a last stand, and it should be a crucial death mechanic. If a human bleeds out, they die, but they also become less useful to a vampire for healing. However, in this last stand, they are a valuable blood meal to the vampires. Once again, you should be allowed to choose life or death. If you are surrounded by vampires and no allies, you want death, you don't want to help the enemy. But if you have an ally nearby and a chance at survival, you can attempt to fight back (or run away if the idea of offensive last stand is not in the question) and get revived, saving a kill point for your team.

These are mechanics that could enhance teamwork, and keep to lore. We are all interested in keeping this game as close to the series lore as possible, so by doing something like this, it could easily be balanced, and it could allow a more team oriented setup.

The one thing I seemed to notice in a gameplay leak is that Vampires have regenerating health, which honestly doesn't make sense. The bloodthirst is just that for a reason, and they should not have regenerating health, quite the opposite. They should be required to feed on humans to survive, and if a vampire team does not stick to feeding, they weaken as a whole and become easier to kill. Protecting a body would become a priority for humans, and even make the drag mechanic that I saw more important.

Let's hope Monkeythumbz sees this and gives some insight

The_Hylden
13th Dec 2013, 03:09
In Soul Reaver 1, the vampires would regenerate a certain amount of health (enough to continue fighting you) if not finished off. It's part of what made them so hard to kill. "A vampire's wounds heal as soon as they are cleaved."

Spectre370
14th Dec 2013, 00:27
In Soul Reaver 1, the vampires would regenerate a certain amount of health (enough to continue fighting you) if not finished off. It's part of what made them so hard to kill. "A vampire's wounds heal as soon as they are cleaved."

Valid point. I am just used to Kain always losing health over time in every game you play of his. I forget that the sun being blotted out (even though that was an inconsistency in Blood Omen 2) would stop this life drain. Still, the blood lust should cause difficulties. While their wounds should heal, they should be required in some way to feed. I don't think it is entirely fair that the tankier, Melee enemies are allowed to just attack, run heal, and keep doing that till the enemy is dead. The enemy can't heal as far as I've seen, so a team of Reavers could literally hit and run the whole match and not lose.

The_Hylden
15th Dec 2013, 05:57
Well, it wasn't due to the sun. Kain's blood bar would decrease the same whether in daylight, or night. Blood Omen 1 has day and night cycles, and BO2 takes place ingame entirely in the evening/night. If you think about it, the blood bar is just representative. Yes, Kain will become weaker and need to feed "from time to time (as he states in Defiance)." But, if Kain had to feed at the rate seen in the games all of the time, well, we're talking like hundreds, maybe a thousand, or more, humans a day. That sure wouldn't be practical.

By the way, there's no inconsistency in BO2 on the sun not being blotted out. Kain has to raise the Lieutenants first and they erect smoke stacks that do this later. BO2 takes place 100 years before Kain raises them.

Vampires do need to feed on blood to maintain their strength, or to heal fully from wounds they receive in the games. If Kain became too weak, instead of dying, the games basically have him either teleport away to rest up (and ignore the ashes thing in BO2, as Kain cannot die that way -- might as well say he's teleporting away there, too), or fly away in batform (Defiance). I am sure that being so weak is no picnic, even if Kain's vampires aren't dead and can still regenerate somewhat on their own.

As for Nosgoth, I think it's known already that humans have their own means to heal, so I'll just relay the methods. The Alchemists have a healing spell they can heal the group with, if you choose to be one, and there are stations in the levels individual humans can heal at. Getting to these might come with some risk, but they're there all the same.

So, each class has their own methods of getting out of the fray and healing up. If we're being sticklers for game world reality, then vampires shouldn't be able to heal fully just by talking time out of the fight, but then humans shouldn't be able to find some station with herbs, or whatever, and heal themselves either. This is definitely gameplay-oriented to make matches last longer for players.

cmstache
15th Dec 2013, 16:29
Not really allowed to speak much on it here, but I assure you, the healing thing has been dealt with properly. The balance between it and gameplay is well done.

Spectre370
16th Dec 2013, 06:51
Not really allowed to speak much on it here, but I assure you, the healing thing has been dealt with properly. The balance between it and gameplay is well done.

I will take your word for it. I'm not expecting Nosgoth to be 100% by lore, but any effort to do so is a nice thing. I love the small things in games.

cmstache
16th Dec 2013, 17:14
That "small" thing is a life saver :)