PDA

View Full Version : Autograb and Other Things



mrcube
13th Jan 2007, 22:15
Ok, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Legend alot, and the graphics were awesome, I'm not too worried about the levels in anniversary, I think they learnt their mistake in Legend, and if it truly is based on TR1, then there's no way you can turn the levels into one directional paths. However, they still need to think about it, Tomb Raider was about Tombs, big huge places where you had to explore, not pre-set paths.

But now, onto the main point of my post, the dreaded autograb, I thought this was one the most annoying things in legend (as well as the bloody shiny things showing you exactly where to grapple - can't they let us figure something out for ourselves, we're not stupid!) and the thing I loved about the original Tomb Raider, was knowing that if you misjudged that big jump, or ran off an edge by accident, trying to be to fast, you died.

With the autograb, that's not the case, it seems to be almost impossible to miss a jump in Legend, and if you go over a ledge, Lara somehow manages to do a 180 in the air, stick her arms up and grab the ledge edge - last time I checked, that's not possible. If they want Tomb Raider Anniversary to be a true remake of TR1, then they shouldn't include this stupid feature, nor should they include ANY kind of tips, that's not what Tomb Raider was about, it was about finding your way with no help.

The last thing, is human enemies. This is the one thing which i can genuinely say looks good. So far, NO human enemies have been confirmed, and that good, except they should include Larson and Pierre (oh and Natla of Course), but that should be it! No other human enemies, none at all. Tomb Raider was never about mindlessly killing people, it was about finding that artifact before the evil person did.

Now Crystal Dynamics, hear what I and others are saying and please for the love of god, listen. Don't Screw this up!

floydthebarber
13th Jan 2007, 22:19
All I can say is Amen to every point that you made!!! Well said.:thumbsup:

concretexpress
13th Jan 2007, 22:57
-I think you made good points, but i think that with every tomb raider release, it surpasses the previous versions, however, i think that the shinny things should be put on for easy levels, for our younger players that like to play and get frustrated with not being able to find the next step to take.
-I think it would be nice to have alittle more free roaming too.

Samoth
14th Jan 2007, 16:07
good points there mrcube

and maybe they just could instert a feature to turn the stupit help thingy's on/off in the options menu.

Trinity88
14th Jan 2007, 16:33
i totally agree i think the features should be there they should only be on the easy levels, let us older folkes have a bit more freedom and fun, not forgetting a little frustration when its 3 weeks to find where to go next!!

floydthebarber
14th Jan 2007, 16:41
In fact, I'll take that idea even further:

Since there are various groups with various tastes in how they want the game to play, I suggest that they have various levels of game play. Not the usual hard/moderate/easy mind you.

On the "HARD" level, there would be no hints, no autograb and it's ilk, no interactive cut scenes, and more detailed controls (to allow one to control Lara to a more detailed level). As far as the numbers and ferocity of enemies... bring them on!!!

On the MODERATE level, there would be few hints (only on the toughest things), autograb either on or off (you decide), interactive cut scenes (on or off) and your choice of controls. Enemies would be in the median between Hard and Easy.

On the EASY level, all helps, hints and autograb would be on. Controls would be like Legend.

They might make a super-easy version, basically an interactive dvd movie for those who are game-challenged (like many I have read about in here! :) )

mrcube
14th Jan 2007, 18:21
Glad to see everyone agrees, for anyone who played the original Tomb Raider, Legend wasn't up to its standards, so anniversary needs to be seriously revised to be like the original. Take what worked in Legend, and combine it with the original game plan.




...They might make a super-easy version, basically an interactive dvd movie for those who are game-challenged (like many I have read about in here! :)...)

LOL - completely, people seem to like video games where they do nothing these days, but I thought they were films :scratch:

sugar1966
14th Jan 2007, 20:00
Ok, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Legend alot, and the graphics were awesome, I'm not too worried about the levels in anniversary, I think they learned they're mistake in Legend, and if it truly is based on TR1, then they're is know why you can turn the levels into one directional paths. However, they still need to think about it, Tomb Raider was about Tombs, big huge places where you had to explore, not pre-set paths.

But now, onto the main point of my post, the dreaded autograb, I thought this was one the most annoying things in legend (as well as the bloody shiny things showing you exactly where to grapple - can't they let us figure something out for ourselves, we're not stupid!) and the thing I loved about the original Tomb Raider, was knowing that if you misjudged that big jump, or ran off an edge by accident, trying to be to fast, you died.

With the autograb, that's not the case, it seems to be almost impossible to miss a jump in Legend, and if you go over a ledge, Lara somehow manages to do a 180 in the air, stick her arms up and grab the ledge edge - last time I checked, that's not possible. If they want Tomb Raider Anniversary to be a true remake of TR1, then they shouldn't include this stupid feature, nor should they include ANY kind of tips, that's not what Tomb Raider was about, it was about finding your way with no help.

The last thing, is human enemies. This is the one thing which i can genuinely say looks good. So far, NO human enemies have been confirmed, and that good, except they should include Larson and Pierre (oh and Natla of Course), but that should be it! No other human enemies, none at all. Tomb Raider was never about mindlessly killing people, it was about finding that artifact before the evil person did.

Now Crystal Dynamics, hear what I and others are saying and please for the love of god, listen. Don't Screw this up!

yes very well said crystal dynamics plz dont screw it up :mad2: old lara fans dont die:lmao:

Terminatorvs
15th Jan 2007, 09:27
None of what you mentioned bugged me.

floydthebarber
15th Jan 2007, 15:28
I have been digging into this whole issue surrounding the problems that some have with the "new" game. Going to the other forums that converse about this, the same debate exists. I have tried to find a specific common reason, one that can explain why the majority of those who prefer the original controls, original Lara, original atmosphere and basically the original everything are dissatisfied with the changes. It appears that there is not one but many.

Firstly, there appears to be a large divide between the players who have played the TR series on game machines and the pc. Those that use the machines seem more satisfied with the new game than those on the pc. This could be because the game was originally developed for the pc, and then adapted for consoles. In Legend the reverse seems to be the case. In fact, I believe that one should always say which platform they use when discussing/complaining since this fact could speak volumes about a specific issue. After my research of this, I'm convinced that this divide is the largest of them all.

Secondly, the players who choose graphics over game play are more satisfied than the reverse. This is a no-brainer to understand. Legend's world was obviously superb to look at, and the previous versions less so as technology marches on. The players who never played any of the previous versions would probably not play these old games once they viewed the graphics, and would more than likely dismiss the games as substandard.

Thirdly, those players who never have completed any of the first 3-4 games in the series are more likely to think that Legend is THE game. They never associated a particular set of controls to the game, never experienced the complexity and breadth of the puzzles and the sheer magnitude of the worlds created. Although in reality all of the TR games are linear, in the the first 4 versions at least one could explore much more off the true path, giving one a sense of true exploration.

Fourth, being led around the game by shiny objects and arrows is insulting to most of the players who have been there from the beginning of the series (or have at least enjoyed one or two of the originals). Perhaps those who have played some of the older games but still prefer Legend are unable to, or unwilling to spend time to solve puzzles. But for the "old schoolers" this is what Tomb Raider is supposed to be about.

Fifth, I am getting old now, and perhaps the youngsters prefer the communication device that Lara was wearing. To me and from what I have read the Old Schoolers really hate this "distraction" from the "solitude", and that it totally destroys the atmosphere.

Sixth, the Autograb is a real metaphor for the bad changes that some see. In a nutshell it encompasses all that has gone wrong with the game. It signifies the dumbing down of the game and the general disregard for a players skill in the game. Is it that hard to hold down a key to grab? Shouldn't Lara fall to her death if she slips up?

Seventh, the controls and camera were dramatically altered, much to the detriment of some. The changes were hard to swallow in association with all of the other issues. The camera and it's relationship with movement were the crux of the problem in most of the complaints I read.

Eighth, the numbers of mercenaries was over-the-top in Legend. Although it seemed to me this was increasing through the series.

Well, these are but some of the issues I have discovered in my 5 days of researching this. I know there are probably many more.

RuumTaedor
15th Jan 2007, 16:00
Hey Floyd, I like what you have come up with. I have brought up many of these points in the past in the Legend forum. There are many issues, and there are opinions on opinions, but I like your summary.

Samoth
15th Jan 2007, 16:24
mr floyd, your right on every point you got there.

maybe this is the future who knows....

but i remember when i tried to jump and grab that spot there and tried 4 times and wasnt able to get there.
then i gave up and looked around and there was no other way...
so i tried again and precisly pressing the alt and then the ctrl button just got me there.
orientating on the corpses to see if i have been there yes or no.

ah well i think we just have to wait till its release.

and again very nice expressed, ur right on every point.

mrcube
15th Jan 2007, 16:24
Floyd, you nailed it man ;) The newer players like Legend because they have no idea what it could have been. Maybe that's why so many people defend these godforsaken features. In my books, give me the gameplay of the original over graphics any day (although, the graphics do look amazing, no denying that!).

The 'gadgets' side of things is another divider between the new players and the old, the modern modern generation (I'd put myself in the modern generation - lol) seem to like all of the new gadgets, but really, they just wreck it, in TR1, when the doors closed behind you in Caves, you knew you were in for one hell of game, and everything was up to you. In Legend, whenever a door closes behind you, either Zipp or Alistair shout something at you, or your greeted with the familiar shiny objects.

On the controls front, I think the PC users (like myself) have had a much easier time, I think that's part of the reason AoD failed, the console version was crap, play the original PC version, install the patch, and its actually a pretty damn good game! Us PC users, can re-configure the controls to whatever we want, helping shape the game around our preferred setup, why they don't include this in console games is beyond me.

floydthebarber
15th Jan 2007, 17:30
Thanks guys, I have been upset ever since I finished Legend and felt much disappointment. I needed to understand why the game changed like it did, and why there were those who liked and defended it.

I think that Eidos would have been better served to keep Tomb Raider/Lara as it was, and developed a new character for this new style game (Jane Blond, Heather Heroine, etc). This way all gamers would have benefited; the old schoolers would get "their Lara", and the newbies would get a modernized, high-tech action hero.

StarChampagne
15th Jan 2007, 17:49
Great points, Floyd :thumbsup: Very well put and you have summed up a lot of feelings people have regarding Legend. I loved the game, and it did look good graphics-wise. However, I agree wholeheartedly with what you have to say. The difficulty settings would suit most people.

floydthebarber
15th Jan 2007, 20:06
when the doors closed behind you in Caves, you knew you were in for one hell of game, and everything was up to you. In Legend, whenever a door closes behind you, either Zipp or Alistair shout something at you, or your greeted with the familiar shiny objects.

You are spot on with this. When one entered the Caves, the instant feel of the game was gripping. The low-key ambient music, accompanied by distant sounds associated with the danger ahead was spell-binding. In the Cistern, the echoing of the gurgling water gave one a sense of the vast underground system one had to traverse. I could go on, but anyone who played it could relate. This was lacking in Legend because even if it existed, it would have been interrupted by one of those babbling "helpers".

mrcube
15th Jan 2007, 21:10
You are spot on with this. When one entered the Caves, the instant feel of the game was gripping. The low-key ambient music, accompanied by distant sounds associated with the danger ahead was spell-binding. In the Cistern, the echoing of the gurgling water gave one a sense of the vast underground system one had to traverse. I could go on, but anyone who played it could relate. This was lacking in Legend because even if it existed, it would have been interrupted by one of those babbling "helpers".

Exactly! This is something's been lost with modern games, there's something very eary and atmospheric about hearing the same sound effects repeated as you progress through a level, always there, reminding you of where you are, and what you are to do, in modern games, the sounds are always changing, and something is definitely lost atmosphere wise.

rabid metro
16th Jan 2007, 04:17
... one of the keys to understanding the look and feel of Legend, i think, is understanding the business forces that created it. my guess is that after Core fumbled AoD, Eidos was in this position: either re-invent Tomb Raider or kill it off. remember that prior to AoD, Tomb Raider was already getting panned for having ‘clumsy controls” and for being “unforgiving”, etc. AoD built the coffin (with the franchise hovering on life supprt). Eidos knew that the FINANCIAL reasons to continue Tomb Raider were far too compelling to kill it off. enter Crystal Dynamics. again, i’m guessing, but it seems to me that for FINANCIAL reasons Crystal Dynamics was put on short leash, something like: you’ll get a risk-limited budget to re-invent Tomb Raider and make it a hit with the 2006 target demographic- teenagers, or else. (btw- there really aren’t any compelling business reasons to develop a game for, ... baby-boomers, possibly, but nonetheless a dwindling demographic of yesteryear players, ... of which i’m included. :whistle: ). Crystal Dynamics, with Toby Gard on board was desperate: create a no-bones-about-it, smash, commercial hit with the target demographic, ... or its game over.

... so they clear the first hurdle: create a game with mass appeal, especially in its target demographic (btw, these kids expect instant communication, you can’t go to the supermarket, let alone climb mt. everest without a cell phone). the yesteryear players are, in a sense, already hooked. tomb raider needs new blood! so you get a bunch of sell-your-soul-to-the-devil features (or, to put it another way, we don’t have a ton of money or time, so keep-it-simple features) with the result that Tomb Raider lives to see another day! there’s reason for hope: now that Tomb Raider has demonstrated that it is, once again, a self-sustaining commercial success, it can begin to indulge in the luxury of returning to its roots ...

... Toby Gard won’t let Tomb Raider die or become “bastardized”. this time it will be different! ...

... i think all the options ideas (and related stuff) are great. i’d like to see those features but there was no way you were going to see that in the “showcase-bring back the franchise” Legend. to me, Legend felt like a “teaser”, offering only a taste of potential greatness. the future of the game should be market-driven and the point that i’m trying to make here is that you have to have a market first before you can let that market drive you ...

... as you may know, i like to dream a lot, :nut: , however, i interpret Toby’s continuing presence at Crystal Dynamics to mean that HE hasn’t lost sight of HIS DREAM ...

... having said all that, i think Legend is a great game (albeit short). with a few options, it can clearly improve. I love its look and feel and potential for even more greatness!

...one final note: i used to feel smug about the fact that i “got the controls” in TR1, 2, 3, etc. . in time, i, amongst my circle of friends, was the only one that wanted to play Tomb Raider. my “aging dog” buds really like Legend- part of the appeal is the player-friendly control schemes and another part is the way the game looks on the big flat screen tv’s (...even with PS2 graphics. the xbox360 is even more impressive). i’m glad that they are back into Tomb Raider. it kinda makes me feel vindicated for keeping the faith ...

they say that really old corpses don't die, they just fade away ...:rolleyes:

rabid metro
16th Jan 2007, 04:29
they say that really old corpses don't die, they just fade away ...

... my apologies for that really lame rumor.

they say that a dragon cannot resist the dagger of xian ... :rolleyes:

Terminatorvs
16th Jan 2007, 07:32
I think the old-timers didn't like Legend just because they think the old TRs are the ideal TRs (even though they're not). I'm an old-timer myself - played every TR game on PC. But I still think, that Legend is great. All these threads about controls, autograb, black-outs, mercs are just pointless.

floydthebarber
16th Jan 2007, 14:32
I think the old-timers didn't like Legend just because they think the old TRs are the ideal TRs (even though they're not). I'm an old-timer myself - played every TR game on PC. But I still think, that Legend is great. All these threads about controls, autograb, black-outs, mercs are just pointless.

ALL HAIL LORD TERMINORVS, the one and only opinion that matters!!! :rolleyes:

C'mon, you speak for yourself and no one else. And there are exceptions to everything (you). I am asking questions to ascertain reasons for dissatisfaction. I am scouring the 'net attempting to compile these views into a coherent, TR philosophy that can explain the various views on the subject. Saying that those who favor the original version who bring up their displeasure in various threads (all over the TR forum world mind you) are posting pointlessly is ludicrous. Not only are they free to post their displeasure, but I feel that they have an obligation to do so. You are free to defend the game if you so choose. As I said, what I have posted here is a common theme and one that is strongly expressed all over the TR world.

When one accepts less and lowers his standards, he might as well just give up on everything. I for one have not lived my life sitting on my hands and accepting any old thing I am given when I can speak up and demand more. To be specific, I believe that something valuable was taken from us, in exchange for a shortened, dumbed down, noisy, hopped up, cubic Zirconia. I want the real diamond. Now for my personal opinions (unlike my compilations).

It's hard to believe that anyone could/would pay $50 for a game and finish it in 9 hrs. It's even harder to believe that they could justify it's cost given this fact. Granted it took me longer, but only because I constantly tried to find alternate routes that never existed and fought with the controls. I am still playing Oblivion (over a year and still have not done everything!) and it cost the same as Legend (and considering it's graphics, game play, size and magnitude it should have been $500 compared to Legend) . Not that it should take the same amount of time, but my God I am replaying TR2 and even though I remember a lot of it it is taking me a whole lot longer due to the sheer size of it. In Legend, having all the hints, shiny objects, one path and arrows in the interactive cut-scenes sped you along as though they wanted you to finish the game in record time. Why?

I truly never felt like I was really in danger in Legend, I dispatched all the enemies rather quickly (I died a few times, but more from my control issues) and since it was almost impossible to fall to my death that was not a problem. The "second chance" grabs and the unconscious 180 degree turn-and-grabs made this almost unheard of. This to me is not understandable. You (I mean you personally) are not going to really die. Lara will die of course, but reloading a saved game (or a save crystal *another bad idea*) will put you right back there to try again and learn from the previous experience. If the risk factor is low, then the emotional gain/fun from the accomplishment is low.

I could go on, and I probably will.

RuumTaedor
16th Jan 2007, 14:36
All these threads about controls, autograb, black-outs, mercs are just pointless.

Perhaps there are too many threads and posts about these issues, but I wouldn't say the issues about controls and auto-grab and black-outs (as in pitch-black environment?) are pointless. They are the expressions of the wants and needs of Tomb Raider fans.

floydthebarber
16th Jan 2007, 15:07
Also, who knows how many TR fans abandoned the series for the same reasons that I am compiling (or some that I am not even aware of yet!)? The people who come here and post/view are probably all playing Legend, and may or may not have played all of the series (or any part of). This also explains the results of any polls that take place here. Those who have not played the series since 5 or 6 who did so because they were disgruntled are not very likely to be viewing this forum. I would not even be here if I had not received the game as a Xmas gift. I may or may not have purchased the game eventually (at a reduced price sometime in the future most likely).

So now they (Eidos) appear to care less for the ones who purchased and enjoyed the series up to Legend (according to rabid metro) and willing to jettison them in favor of a new crowd. Not that they would want to mind you, just a risk they were willing to take. In todays corporate world, the stock price is all that matters. The product is secondary. The "creators" in this world have been put on a short leash.

floydthebarber
16th Jan 2007, 15:39
Perhaps there are too many threads and posts about these issues

This quote speaks volumes on it's own.

StarChampagne
16th Jan 2007, 19:13
Just a question here: does the 'new generation' of gamers, or whoever the target audience of Legend was supposed be, necessarily prefer easy games? Legend did seem considerably dumbed down in comparison to the previous games. But the attraction of Tomb Raider in the first place was that it was epic as well as different. Would we necessarily be here today if Tomb Raider 1 was short and with the level of hints and help given in Legend? I just wonder what the motivation behind making a game extremely short/easy is - if the majority of people prefer their games brief, as opposed to huge.

True, TR7 was probably testing the waters. After Aod, it is perfectly understandable that CD had to play it safe. Now they've got TR 'back on track', as rabid metro suggested, they could well work on recapturing the true TR spirit bin TR8. Unless Anniversary is just an attempt to win old fans over, and we'll have the extreme pleasure of excessive amounts of Zip, Alistair, flashy things and general hints in TR8.

I'm sure it's been said before, but I believe that TR1 was never supposed to be a money-spinner. It just did unexpectedly well. I'm not saying games should be made as a service to gamers or something, at all, but maybe if CD worked on creating a truly special game, the profits would pour in on their own. Although I have absolutely no experience with the making of games, so I have no idea whatsoever about what CD should be doing. I will be very interested to see what direction TR8 takes. And whether Anniversary is stuffed with hints.

mrcube
16th Jan 2007, 21:49
Just a question here: does the 'new generation' of gamers, or whoever the target audience of Legend was supposed be, necessarily prefer easy games? Legend did seem considerably dumbed down in comparison to the previous games. But the attraction of Tomb Raider in the first place was that it was epic as well as different. Would we necessarily be here today if Tomb Raider 1 was short and with the level of hints and help given in Legend? I just wonder what the motivation behind making a game extremely short/easy is - if the majority of people prefer their games brief, as opposed to huge.

True, TR7 was probably testing the waters. After Aod, it is perfectly understandable that CD had to play it safe. Now they've got TR 'back on track', as rabid metro suggested, they could well work on recapturing the true TR spirit bin TR8. Unless Anniversary is just an attempt to win old fans over, and we'll have the extreme pleasure of excessive amounts of Zip, Alistair, flashy things and general hints in TR8.

I'm sure it's been said before, but I believe that TR1 was never supposed to be a money-spinner. It just did unexpectedly well. I'm not saying games should be made as a service to gamers or something, at all, but maybe if CD worked on creating a truly special game, the profits would pour in on their own. Although I have absolutely no experience with the making of games, so I have no idea whatsoever about what CD should be doing. I will be very interested to see what direction TR8 takes. And whether Anniversary is stuffed with hints.

Yeah, I think your right here. If TR1 had been 'just another video game', the same as any other, then I doubt it would have been successful, people would have dismissed it to be the same as everything else, but because Tomb Raider broke so many 'video game rules' it was hit.

If Legend is the Test, the game that hooks everyone in, and I sincerely hope it is, then I can't wait to see what's next. Like I've said before, I didn't dislike Legend, but I didn't think it was 'Amazing' so, maybe they've achieved their goal, I'm here again, anticipating the next game. So if it blows me away, then they'll have me.

Maybe the purpose was to get the newer generation to like the game, so they could go back to the older formula. Maybe they felt that throwing people the original TR style game would put any newcomer off. So they get everyone hooked so that with the next one, they can push the boundary

floydthebarber
16th Jan 2007, 22:57
True, TR7 was probably testing the waters. After Aod, it is perfectly understandable that CD had to play it safe.

I would disagree if this was their rationale. There is no real reason why the game could not have been deeper and more challenging. Given Tomb Raiders base of support, the updated graphics and Lara's appeal (and the new controls for the game-challenged, yecchhh!), the game would have sold well with the publication of these facts both online and in print. Telling all that this game was departure from the (perceived by some) awful AoD and supporting this with a demo would have been sufficient. So I believe that the size and scope of the game would not have affected sales at all.

Anyone who says that they would prefer a short and easy game is not being honest, or if their not, they should go back to the Atari.

Also, as I have stated repeatedly, they could have introduced a new character for a new type game (Remember XXX Vin Diesel, the hip James Bond for the new generation?). Then they could have kept Lara as she was (same bio, same type game). Double the money, double the fun!!!

Dogfight
17th Jan 2007, 05:09
This is response to floydthebarber's comments.


Firstly, there appears to be a large divide between the players who have played the TR series on game machines and the pc. Those that use the machines seem more satisfied with the new game than those on the pc. This could be because the game was originally developed for the pc, and then adapted for consoles. In Legend the reverse seems to be the case. In fact, I believe that one should always say which platform they use when discussing/complaining since this fact could speak volumes about a specific issue. After my research of this, I'm convinced that this divide is the largest of them all.

This is of particular note because most gamers that have played Tomb Raider have played it on the console versions and not the PC version. The PC version has better graphics and you can save anywhere while on the console versions players need to find Save Crystals to save and cannot save whenever they want. This is a big detriment to the experience of playing the original Tomb Raider on a console and a big reason why many players of Tomb Raider on a console would support the remake of Tomb Raider over the original.


Secondly, the players who choose graphics over game play are more satisfied than the reverse. This is a no-brainer to understand. Legend's world was obviously superb to look at, and the previous versions less so as technology marches on. The players who never played any of the previous versions would probably not play these old games once they viewed the graphics, and would more than likely dismiss the games as substandard.

This is true but graphics can only take you so far and if the gameplay is not good few players will support a game regardless of how good the graphics are.


Thirdly, those players who never have completed any of the first 3-4 games in the series are more likely to think that Legend is THE game. They never associated a particular set of controls to the game, never experienced the complexity and breadth of the puzzles and the sheer magnitude of the worlds created. Although in reality all of the TR games are linear, in the the first 4 versions at least one could explore much more off the true path, giving one a sense of true exploration.

I do not how to take this as most players out there who have completed Tomb Raider Legend have not completed the first two Tomb Raider games let alone the third and fourth games. Most gamers as far I know have completed the original Tomb Raider or at least heard of the original Tomb Raider and a few players have completed Tomb Raider 1 and 2. Those gamers that have completed the first three to four Tomb Raider games are really in the minority.


Fourth, being led around the game by shiny objects and arrows is insulting to most of the players who have been there from the beginning of the series (or have at least enjoyed one or two of the originals). Perhaps those who have played some of the older games but still prefer Legend are unable to, or unwilling to spend time to solve puzzles. But for the "old schoolers" this is what Tomb Raider is supposed to be about.

I do not think it is simply about graphics, arrows or shiny objects. If Tomb Raider Legend instead of Tomb Raider came out in 1996 with the graphics of Tomb Raider it would still be popular today. The sales of Tomb Raider Legend prove this. The game sold very well with over 2.6 million units sold in five weeks and it continues to sale. The easy interface of the game makes it accessible for everyone and not just for players that like a hard difficulty. If you had an option in Tomb Raider Legend to turn off the arrows and the shininess of the objects then you could not provide this reason for disliking the game. This is really a manner of aesthetics that was done to provide fun for the majority and not for the minority. Personally I almost never noticed the arrows and the shiny objects.


Fifth, I am getting old now, and perhaps the youngsters prefer the communication device that Lara was wearing. To me and from what I have read the Old Schoolers really hate this "distraction" from the "solitude", and that it totally destroys the atmosphere.

It is a type of fifty to fifty percent ration on this from my experiences playing games, talking to players and reading online about games most gamers do not want a game where there is complete solitude but they also do no want a game where there is a great deal of communication. Personally I think communication and solitude are a must in a game. However it is the way communication and solitude is handled that can aggravate players. Solitude all the time with no communication with anyone is not only absolutely boring but also absolutely frustrating; the same can be said of too much communication. It is about having the right balance that makes a game solid. Tomb Raider Legend’s communication was a necessity because Metal Gear Solid has now made that a standard, but the execution of it could have been better. A few communications at the beginning of each level and halfway though each level while having the rest of the communications in the level be voluntary as in if the player chooses he may contact his friends for helpful hints would have been the better way to do this. Even with the communications in Tomb Raider Legend I still had the feeling of complete solitude at various points throughout the game, just not all the time.


Sixth, the Autograb is a real metaphor for the bad changes that some see. In a nutshell it encompasses all that has gone wrong with the game. It signifies the dumbing down of the game and the general disregard for a players skill in the game. Is it that hard to hold down a key to grab? Shouldn't Lara fall to her death if she slips up?

Really, I think you are making a bid deal out of this, playing Tomb Raider Legend I did not even notice the autograb feature until it was mentioned here. Most gamers I believe have not noticed it either. On most action adventure games today the autograb feature has become a standard, so much so that most gamers today do not even notice it. I do understand your point of view though but most gamers would see having to press another button to grab a ledge after you jump as annoying and over time it would become a real nuisance. Especially doing it dozens of times and dying over and over again when you miss pressing the grab button at the exact moment when you need too. This is a real frustration of the original Tomb Raider game. Something if which I have never heard any Tomb Raider fan who has played the original game like it until today. An option to have the autograb on or off though would satisfy your complaint.


Seventh, the controls and camera were dramatically altered, much to the detriment of some. The changes were hard to swallow in association with all of the other issues. The camera and it's relationship with movement were the crux of the problem in most of the complaints I read.

I see no problem at all with the controls or the camera and most gamers saw no problems at all with the controls and the camera system. In fact, the controls and the camera system of Tomb Raider Legend have been highly praised by players everywhere.


Eighth, the numbers of mercenaries was over-the-top in Legend. Although it seemed to me this was increasing through the series.

Well, these are but some of the issues I have discovered in my 5 days of researching this. I know there are probably many more.

This is more a matter of taste, some gamers like killing human enemies more than they like killing animal enemies, although monster enemies are the big enemy types that just about every gamer likes over all other enemy types. In contrast to your previous arguments for disliking Tomb Raider Legend I believe that having too few animals in the game actually is the central legitimate criticism of Tomb Raider Legend. As far as I can tell just about every gamer liked the mercenaries and the different classes of mercenaries in Tomb Raider Legend but the gamers would have preferred some more variety by having more animal enemies in the game as a change of pace from fighting the mercenaries. This specific criticism Crystal Dynamics has acknowledged as legit and has promised to change for future Tomb Raider games.

floydthebarber
17th Jan 2007, 05:36
You should get around more. As I said, this was a consensus opinion, gleaned from scouring various forums (including this one) on the net. I share most of them, but some I do not fervently subscribe to.

You make little sense in your arguments. You draw conclusions based on innuendo and conjecture (your first point for one).
Take this one for instance:


I do not how to take this as most gamers out there who have completed Tomb Raider Legend have not completed the first two Tomb Raider games let alone the third and fourth games
Where is the evidence for this (as if the point is relevant anyway)?


There is little "meat" to your arguments, and this one takes the "cake":

I did not even notice the autograb feature until you mentioned it here. Most gamers I believe have not noticed it either.

I could go on, but anyone reading your attempted rebuttal will find it vacuous and full of conjecture.

Dogfight
17th Jan 2007, 05:53
You should get around more. As I said, this was a consensus opinion, gleaned from scouring various forums (including this one) on the net. I share most of them, but some I do not fervently subscribe to.

You make little sense in your arguments. You draw conclusions based on innuendo and conjecture (your first point for one).
Take this one for instance:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfight
I do not how to take this as most gamers out there who have completed Tomb Raider Legend have not completed the first two Tomb Raider games let alone the third and fourth games

Where is the evidence for this (as if the point is relevant anyway)?

Check the sales figures of Tomb Raider 4 and the lack of acknowledgement of every Tomb Raider game except the original and Tomb Raider Legend. I have gleamed various forums and my arguments are infered from overall opinions and sound logic. A great deal of veteran gamers gave up on Tomb Raider years ago, shortly after Tomb Raider 1 and an even greater number of new gamers never even heard of or dismissed Tomb Raider until Tomb Raider Legend's release.


There is little "meat" to your arguments, and this one takes the "cake":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfight
I did not even notice the autograb feature until you mentioned it here. Most gamers I believe have not noticed it either.

This is true though, a great deal of gamers do not notice the autograb feature unless you point it out to them because it is barely noticeable, it does not detract from the game and it is very well integrated. If it was a gigantic detriment to the game then everyone would notice it. Since you and other veterans of Tomb Raider are familiar with not having the autograb feature because of recent playing of Tomb Raider 1 you noticed the autograb feature right away, but a large number of gamers have never played Tomb Raider 1 or played Tomb Raider 1 so long ago that they do not recall not having the autograb in the game thus when they play Tomb Raider Legend they do not notice it. The autograb is a gameplay mechanic that has been put in several games today to the point that a great deal of gamers usually do not even notice it in games any longer, especially since they are usually more concerned with playing the game then concentrating on a gaming mechanic that is not annoying.

Samoth
17th Jan 2007, 11:43
well i could debate for hours..
but that still doesnt change the game.

all we can do is hope that Crystal Dynamics open their eyes
and stick to the original concept instead of making it for 5 year old people.
(becouse that was the level of game difficulty)

floydthebarber
17th Jan 2007, 14:27
all we can do is hope that Crystal Dynamics open their eyes
and stick to the original concept instead of making it for 5 year old people.


I think that this explains Dogfight's assumption filled post. ;)

Here's an example of his weak theory:

If you say so, but I know two people that have played the original Tomb Raider and they like Tomb Raider Legend over the original. That's like me saying "I live in Chicago and when I look at the night sky I see a few stars (due to the urban lighting) so there must be only a few of them". Flawed logic at it's worst.

Look, these shortcomings in Legend exist for a large proportion of TR players. Denying that they do is laughable on it's face. I simply compiled some of them in one post, and in fact did not even post all of these issues.

StarChampagne
17th Jan 2007, 19:47
Interesting posts. As I have said before, I haven't played many other games, but has communications become a must? In which case, as someone once suggested, there should be a 'crush headphones underfoot option'.

If players do not prefer easier games these days, I wonder where the idea for the worrying amount of help in Legend sprang from :confused:

Time trials, car - I mean outfit - selection... not to mention extended bike sequences... Tomb Racer, anyone? :rolleyes:

mrcube
17th Jan 2007, 20:16
Interesting posts. As I have said before, I haven't played many other games, but has communications become a must? In which case, as someone once suggested, there should be a 'crush headphones underfoot option'.

If players do not prefer easier games these days, I wonder where the idea for the worrying amount of help in Legend sprang from :confused:

Time trials, car - I mean outfit - selection... not to mention extended bike sequences... Tomb Racer, anyone? :rolleyes:

Definitely, it does seem that they are trying to make Tomb Raider a game that covers a much larger genre. But it doesnt seem to be working. In fact, the opposite. Trying to include these stupid race sequences and time trails (time trails in an adventure game? seriously? it does sound like a racer) just distracts from the tomb raiding part. And if there going to do that, then it's not tomb raider, like you say its Tomb Racer.

Lol, can you imagine, the spin-off Tomb Raider game for PSP and DS where you play as Lara Croft as she earns money driving around using her new found heartless killing skills, to complete hit-man jobs, allowing the player to afford better cars and 'mods', for you to race around various Tombs. I don't think it would be a big seller.

floydthebarber
17th Jan 2007, 20:18
Lol, can you imagine, the spin-off Tomb Raider game for PSP and DS where you play as Lara Croft as she earns money driving around using her new found heartless killing skills, to complete hit-man jobs, allowing the player to afford better cars and 'mods', for you to race around various Tombs. I don't think it would be a big seller.

I'm sure Dogfight would buy it, and tell us how all the TR fans asked for it (all three of them). :rolleyes:


It's a joke, so relax :)

Dogfight
17th Jan 2007, 20:35
Originally Posted by Samoth
all we can do is hope that Crystal Dynamics open their eyes
and stick to the original concept instead of making it for 5 year old people.

I think that this explains Dogfight's assumption filled post.

Here's an example of his weak theory:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfight
If you say so, but I know two people that have played the original Tomb Raider and they like Tomb Raider Legend over the original.

That's like me saying "I live in Chicago and when I look at the night sky I see a few stars (due to the urban lighting) so there must be only a few of them". Flawed logic at it's worst.

Look, these shortcomings in Legend exist for a large proportion of TR players. Denying that they do is laughable on it's face. I simply compiled some of them in one post, and in fact did not even post all of these issues.

Last time I checked you did not list that a single person agreed with your statements. Several people agree with my statements I just listed the two gamers I know as direct evidence but these two are not the only ones that like Tomb Raider Legend over the original Tomb Raider. However since you took such a comment way too seriously, I have deleted it.

Check the sales figures of Tomb Raider Legend for all the people that like Tomb Raider Legend, several of which like it over the original.

Did you ever think that many of these shortcomings you mentioned are actually seen by most gamers as positive traits rather than detriments to the game?

I know you probably hate Tomb Raider Legend, but its sales record and its large acknowledgement clearly shows that most gamers do not share your opinion.

By the way I care about Tomb Raider just as much as you do I am just more practical to the changes than stubbornly against them.

floydthebarber
17th Jan 2007, 20:40
Apparently you have not read this entire thread. Please do so.

Dogfight
17th Jan 2007, 20:53
Apparently you have not read this entire thread. Please do so.

Apparently you have not read a single positive stance on Tomb Raider Legend, read up on the supporters of Tomb Raider Legend, checked the sales figures, compared it to other games, read up on the many consumer reviews about the game, read up on the reviews from various game magazines that list the positive and the negative traits of the game, and tried to find a general consensus rather than a one track opinion about the game.

Here is a small example of what you have been missing out on.

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=57446

If you notice nearly all these posters like the autograb feature and several of them list other games that have the autograb feature as well.

floydthebarber
17th Jan 2007, 21:28
Quite the contrary my friend. It is was on this basis that I was compiling this. I was finding both high regard and great dissent for the game, both in print and online. It was my intention to ascertain the reasons for these discrepancies, and to help me understand why some gamers preferred Legend to the originals.

Here are some points to consider:

#1) Sales figures are pointless in comparing a game from 1996 to one from 2006. Why? Because there are many more gamers today than back then. Why is this? Because there are many more pc's and multitudes of consoles in millions of homes around the world today as contrasted with 1996 (in the stone ages of computers, or at least the iron age). I will give you an analogy that will make my point. It would be like someone claiming that hardly anyone watched tv in the '50's compared to today. Get the picture?

#2) You seem to harbor an opinion that expresses that since a magazine (or two or three), some online sites and some forum posters love a game that everyone should. Perhaps you are swayed by such things but some people have independent thoughts.

#3) I never said I hated Legend at any time. In fact, if you have read anything that I have written I have stated that I enjoyed the game as a short, action game; just not as a Tomb Raider/Lara Croft one. I said that I was personally disappointed in this.

#4) This thread was started by someone who expressed the idea that you claim no one but I noticed.

#5) I know for a fact (from my research) that many prefer the new game to the old, I have never stated otherwise (unlike you and your refusal to acknowledge the reverse).

I have said enough to you, unless you are going to be productive, thorough in your research (as in actually reading threads assiduously) and open-minded than there is no point responding to your comments.

Dogfight
17th Jan 2007, 21:50
Quite the contrary my friend. It is was on this basis that I was compiling this. I was finding both high regard and great dissent for the game, both in print and online. It was my intention to ascertain the reasons for these discrepancies, and to help me understand why some gamers preferred Legend to the originals.

A very good task but I think you ultimately failed as you mainly stated only the reasons some harcore Tomb Raider players disliked Tomb Raider Legend.

Here are some points to consider:


#1) Sales figures are pointless in comparing a game from 1996 to one from 2006. Why? Because there are many more gamers today than back then. Why is this? Because there are many more pc's and multitudes of consoles in millions of homes around the world today as contrasted with 1996 (in the stone ages of computers, or at least the iron age). I will give you an analogy that will make my point. It would be like someone claiming that hardly anyone watched tv in the '50's compared to today. Get the picture?

So then this is why the recent previous Tomb Raider games before Tomb Raider Legend did not sale well but Tomb Raider Legend sold exceedinly well. Sales figures do matter. People moved from radio to television.


#2) You seem to harbor an opinion that expresses that since a magazine (or two or three), some online sites and some forum posters love a game that everyone should. Perhaps you are swayed by such things but some people have independent thoughts.

Sure, you have a one track mind, rather than trying to find out what everyone else thinks you would rather accept one opinion as fact. I am not swayed by such things alone but also by the facts. The facts state that Tomb Raider Legend succeeded in just about every category, including overall gamer support.


#3) I never said I hated Legend at any time. In fact, if you have read anything that I have written I have stated that I enjoyed the game as a short, action game; just not as a Tomb Raider/Lara Croft one. I said that I was personally disappointed in this.

It sure sounds to me like you hate the game since you do not like it as a Tomb Raider game.


#4) This thread was started by someone who expressed the idea that you claim no one but I noticed.

Sorry, that was a typographical error.


#5) I know for a fact (from my research) that many prefer the new game to the old, I have never stated otherwise (unlike you and your refusal to acknowledge the reverse).

This is interesting, because you never stated that before on this thread. I will state that the hardcore gamers that liked the original Tomb Raider and subsequently the first few sequels after it were disappointed with Tomb Raider Legend for a variety of reasons, some based on preferences while other reasons where based on legitimate criticisms.


I have said enough to you, unless you are going to be productive, thorough in your research (as in actually reading threads assiduously) and open-minded than there is no point responding to your comments.

I ask that you do this yourself and be more open minded as well.

Joshorty
17th Jan 2007, 22:28
Just to point out, there won't be anymore metal shiny objects as it has already been said before:D

floydthebarber
17th Jan 2007, 23:27
I said I was not going to respond to you anymore, but your baseless and unwarranted attack on me personally cannot go by without response.
A very good task but I think you ultimately failed as you mainly stated only the reasons some harcore Tomb Raider players disliked Tomb Raider Legend.

Please read the first paragraph of my post: "I have tried to find a specific common reason, one that can explain why the majority of those who prefer the original controls, original Lara, original atmosphere and basically the original everything are dissatisfied with the changes."
Where in there do I mention anything more? So what did I fail at? In fact your own words proved it was a smashing success.


Sure, you have a one track mind, rather than trying to find out what everyone else thinks you would rather accept one opinion as fact. I am not swayed by such things alone but also by the facts. The facts state that Tomb Raider Legend succeeded in just about every category, including overall gamer support.
What part of "asking questions to ascertain reasons for dissatisfaction." and "scouring the 'net attempting to compile these views into a coherent, TR philosophy that can explain the various views on the subject." don't you understand.



It sure sounds to me like you hate the game since you do not like it as a Tomb Raider game.
Nice personal attack, it's too bad that everything that I have ever said contradicts your b**s**t statement. I don't know you, so don't you ever call me a liar again.




Sorry, that was a typographical error.
I've got news for you, a typographical error is one or two wrong letters, not a whole sentence.



This is interesting, because you never stated that before on this thread. I will state that the hardcore gamers that liked the original Tomb Raider and subsequently the first few sequels after it were disappointed with Tomb Raider Legend for a variety of reasons, some based on preferences while other reasons where based on legitimate criticisms.
It's not my job to state every opinion in someone else's thread. In fact, that would be your job (or someone with that point of view) to post any differing points of view. If everyone was forced to jot down all points of view when they posted there would be no forums.



I ask that you do this yourself and be more open minded as well. I'd say what I want to say in response, but it might get me banned.


So then this is why the recent previous Tomb Raider games before Tomb Raider Legend did not sale well but Tomb Raider Legend sold exceedinly well. Sales figures do matter. People moved from radio to television.
How does one one watch television on the radio?

Look, it's obvious that you jumped on this thread without reading it thoroughly. Everyone's entitled to his opinion however, even you. But stick to the subject matter and avoid calling people liars.

Dogfight
18th Jan 2007, 01:59
Please read the first paragraph of my post: "I have tried to find a specific common reason, one that can explain why the majority of those who prefer the original controls, original Lara, original atmosphere and basically the original everything are dissatisfied with the changes. "Where in there do I mention anything more? So what did I fail at? In fact your own words proved it was a smashing success.

Right on the sentence before you make mention of the debate but never state it. Following this you fail to mention that the majority who like the old scheme is the minority. Further you fail to mention any background information or to state “Why?” the changes were implemented and “Why?” others liked Tomb Raider Legend. You should have at least stated that your view is only one view. You probably meant to do no wrong but your argument is greatly misleading for when you leave out information you present a compromised picture.


Going to the other forums that converse about this, the same debate exists.



What part of "asking questions to ascertain reasons for dissatisfaction." and "scouring the 'net attempting to compile these views into a coherent, TR philosophy that can explain the various views on the subject." don't you understand.

So far you have only presented one view, where are the other views? Where is the general perspective?


Nice personal attack, it's too bad that everything that I have ever said contradicts your b**s**t statement. I don't know you, so don't you ever call me a liar again.

I did not call you a liar, but anyone could easily see your dislike for Tomb Raider Legend as hatred of the game as well.


It's not my job to state every opinion in someone else's thread. In fact, that would be your job (or someone with that point of view) to post any differing points of view. If everyone was forced to jot down all points of view when they posted there would be no forums.

No, but you should at least state that there are other points of view. Exactly what I did was to post a more general perspective on the whole thing even agreeing with some of your points of view. Then you insulted my general perspective, if you disagreed with it, you should have just said so instead of just ridiculing it.


I've got news for you, a typographical error is one or two wrong letters, not a whole sentence.

I messed up on a few letters.


How does one one watch television on the radio?

You listen to the radio.


Look, it's obvious that you jumped on this thread without reading it thoroughly. Everyone's entitled to his opinion however, even you. But stick to the subject matter and avoid calling people liars.

I did read this thread thoroughly you should read this thread again as you missed out on several comments. It is obvious that you previously failed to state that there is more to the debate than the part you present. Further you criticised anyone that presented an alternative perspective and failed to see that there might be some importance to their comments.

ahimsa
18th Jan 2007, 12:36
123

floydthebarber
18th Jan 2007, 15:33
Very nice post ahimsa. Your post adds another dimension to Lara that some players possess.

I also avoid killing as much as possible. In particular I deplore killing the animals in the game. I do my best to outrun, evade or avoid them if possible. I am replaying TR2 now and I have found that it is actually much more of a challenge to try and play the game this way. The armed men are a particular challenge to avoid, sometimes this is not possible as killing them is the only way to continue. I have been wounded many times by the animals and still managed to leap to safety or outrun them to another level or high ground.

Don't get me wrong, I have played many a violent shooter and I can probably say (having played hundreds of titles since the 80's) that I have slaughtered more than most. But I really make sure that I never kill when I can avoid it. Very difficult (if not impossible!) to do in some games like Doom3 (although killing the freaks in this one is actually a pleasure) and Far Cry. In Morrowind/Oblivion one must not kill unless you are attacked first. Sometimes even one who you know will turn on you eventually cannot be killed until his intentions are known (as in actually attacking you).

The Thief series was awesome in this regard. Killing was actually discouraged, and in fact led to your death rather quickly. Stealth and silence were your allies and you used these or you failed. I loved these games and still play them to this day.

I remember way back in the early 90's I was playing a game called Blake Stone:Aliens of Gold (a successor to the awesome classic Wolfenstein 3D). There were scientists who were either good or bad and you could not tell which until they shot at you. One could kill them all of course, but there were consequences if you did, and bonuses if you spared the "informants".

I think that you point out some of the subtle differences between the Legend Lara and the original one. Your argument concerning "control" is valid and though provoking. To me personally, they turned her into an arcade game. I think you are saying that you were Lara in the originals, and now you are limited to a pre-subscribed regimen and process.

ahimsa
18th Jan 2007, 16:02
Very nice post ahimsa. Your post adds another dimension to Lara that some players possess.

I also avoid killing as much as possible. In particular I deplore killing the animals in the game. I do my best to outrun, evade or avoid them if possible. I am replaying TR2 now and I have found that it is actually much more of a challenge to try and play the game this way. The armed men are a particular challenge to avoid, sometimes this is not possible as killing them is the only way to continue. I have been wounded many times by the animals and still managed to leap to safety or outrun them to another level or high ground.

Don't get me wrong, I have played many a violent shooter and I can probably say (having played hundreds of titles since the 80's) that I have slaughtered more than most. But I really make sure that I never kill when I can avoid it. Very difficult (if not impossible!) to do in some games like Doom3 (although killing the freaks in this one is actually a pleasure) and Far Cry. In Morrowind/Oblivion one must not kill unless you are attacked first. Sometimes even one who you know will turn on you eventually cannot be killed until his intentions are known (as in actually attacking you).

The Thief series was awesome in this regard. Killing was actually discouraged, and in fact led to your death rather quickly. Stealth and silence were your allies and you used these or you failed. I loved these games and still play them to this day.

I remember way back in the early 90's I was playing a game called Blake Stone:Aliens of Gold (a successor to the awesome classic Wolfenstein 3D). There were scientists who were either good or bad and you could not tell which until they shot at you. One could kill them all of course, but there were consequences if you did, and bonuses if you spared the "informants".

I think that you point out some of the subtle differences between the Legend Lara and the original one. Your argument concerning "control" is valid and though provoking. To me personally, they turned her into an arcade game. I think you are saying that you were Lara in the originals, and now you are limited to a pre-subscribed regimen and process.

No, not Lara, but more like I was in the game. Whenever I played I would imagine what it would be like to actually do the jumps, climbs, swinging, all of it. I just don't get that feeling with AOD or Legend Laras. Maybe I let myself get too deep into it.

If I play a game like RE...I have no problem with the killing, but TR is different. In TR it is mainly animals and people; to me it's different. Her killing mummies was fine, her killing temple dogs bothered me.

But no, I wasn't thinking I was Lara, just that it felt more like I was actually a part of the game and that my learning how to keep her safe made that Lara more special than these new Laras.

Maybe I should just delete the first post so no one else thinks I think I'm Lara.

floydthebarber
18th Jan 2007, 16:12
Ahhh, I understand. No need to delete/apologize for anything. One should not be afraid to express themselves honestly. It was I who incorrectly drew a conclusion, and you have clarified it. Thank you! ;)

I should also clarify what I mean when I say that one "is Lara". Not that one is becoming someone else (in a strange psychological way), but that one is controlling her from the inside. Hence she is Lara. When you seem to be operating a character like a puppet, then you are not that character. That is what I mean. In my mind there is a difference.

I know that you did not imply or mean this, and your clarification for my benefit was most enlightening.

ahimsa
18th Jan 2007, 19:14
Ahhh, I understand. No need to delete/apologize for anything. One should not be afraid to express themselves honestly. It was I who incorrectly drew a conclusion, and you have clarified it. Thank you! ;)

I should also clarify what I mean when I say that one "is Lara". Not that one is becoming someone else (in a strange psychological way), but that one is controlling her from the inside. Hence she is Lara. When you seem to be operating a character like a puppet, then you are not that character. That is what I mean. In my mind there is a difference.

I know that you did not imply or mean this, and your clarification for my benefit was most enlightening.

Ok :)

I liked your research post in this thread. I use PS and PS2 for the games, but recently bought 1 - 5 for the PC. I don't hate Legend, but I don't consider it a TR game. I think of it as a PoP game. Nothing wrong with PoP; it's a cute game if you like that kind of game. The autograb feature is probably my least favorite.

mrcube
18th Jan 2007, 19:31
Ok :)

I liked your research post in this thread. I use PS and PS2 for the games, but recently bought 1 - 5 for the PC. I don't hate Legend, but I don't consider it a TR game. I think of it as a PoP game. Nothing wrong with PoP; it's a cute game if you like that kind of game. The autograb feature is probably my least favorite.

Thats what I (and I think the rest of us) Have been trying to say, we don't hate Legend, we just don't think it was a true TR game. And as Anniversary is a remake of the original TR, we don't want them to make it a game we just like, we want them to make it Tomb Raider game we really like.

ahimsa
18th Jan 2007, 20:39
Thats what I (and I think the rest of us) Have been trying to say, we don't hate Legend, we just don't think it was a true TR game. And as Anniversary is a remake of the original TR, we don't want them to make it a game we just like, we want them to make it Tomb Raider game we really like.


I plan on waiting to see what people who feel the way I do about Legend have to say about Anniversary before I buy. I don't want it if it is just another PoP game.

mrcube
18th Jan 2007, 21:19
I plan on waiting to see what people who feel the way I do about Legend have to say about Anniversary before I buy. I don't want it if it is just another PoP game.

I think I'll end up just buying it, much the same as i did with Legend, simply to see it for myself (I never feel comfortable reading other people's views and going on that) and to have the entire collection.

Even if it's not amazing, I still need to have it, :lol:

ahimsa
18th Jan 2007, 21:28
I think I'll end up just buying it, much the same as i did with Legend, simply to see it for myself (I never feel comfortable reading other people's views and going on that) and to have the entire collection.

Even if it's not amazing, I still need to have it, :lol:

I know that feeling, but with Legend I rented then waited and bought it used. Wasn't worth $50 to me, so I was willing to wait. I'll probably do the same with this one.

floydthebarber
18th Jan 2007, 22:15
I think I'll end up just buying it, much the same as i did with Legend, simply to see it for myself (I never feel comfortable reading other people's views and going on that) and to have the entire collection.

Even if it's not amazing, I still need to have it, :lol:

I may or may not buy it. It depends on whether or not they truly show respect for the original in my eyes (Lara, atmosphere, puzzles, and yes no autograb to name a few). I will play the demo (if available) and read here (as ahimsa said) before I buy. The only reason I would not purchase it regardless is that in doing so I would be voting (by buying it) before I've seen the candidates platform so-to-speak.

ahimsa
18th Jan 2007, 22:39
I may or may not buy it. It depends on whether or not they truly show respect for the original in my eyes (Lara, atmosphere, puzzles, and yes no autograb to name a few). I will play the demo (if available) and read here (as ahimsa said) before I buy. The only reason I would not purchase it regardless is that in doing so I would be voting (by buying it) before I've seen the candidates platform so-to-speak.


If you buy used would that be counted?

A demo would be better for me than renting. I hope they have one for this.

mrcube
19th Jan 2007, 16:07
I suppose a demo is the real thing that allows you to test a game, but I'm resistant to demos, I think they spoil the final game. It's like a spoiler, you know what you are going to be getting, I like to find out in the real thing, knowing that I can go on, and on. Not a restricted preview.

floydthebarber
19th Jan 2007, 17:07
If you buy used would that be counted?

Nope. A good option if you have to have it, but don't want to be counted as "approving of it in every way".*






*Results may vary, some may experience nausea and regret, others may find enlightenment

ahimsa
19th Jan 2007, 23:11
I've never tried a demo of a game before, so I think I will this time.

If the game is any good, I'll buy it eventually.

floydthebarber
20th Jan 2007, 02:52
Demo's are a double-edged sword. I only play them if I have real doubt about purchasing the title.

mrcube
20th Jan 2007, 17:30
Demo's are a double-edged sword. I only play them if I have real doubt about purchasing the title.

Yeah, I'd really like to be like that, somehow i always end up playing the demos, this time I wont! - well I might, we'll see. lol.

I know that I'll end up buying Anniversary though, no matter whether it is good or bad, simply to have the entire collection, and to have played every game. And somehow, I have a theory, that as long as we keep buying these games, they'll keep making them, and that each time, they might get better.

Take AoD, I personally don't think it was bad, I agree it wasn't as good as it's predecessors, but it still had a great storyline, and once patched and the controls re-configured, it was pretty good, I certainly enjoyed it. And I think the reason it failed, was because Core were never given enough time to refine their engine, and work at the bugs. Eidos were all about the money, but Core just wanted to make it play well, I think, that if AoD had been released six months later than it was, it would have been good, and even with the bugs, if Core had developed TR7, then they would have used the AoD engine, but fixed, so it would have been much, much better, and Core would have had more time to work on the levels.

ahimsa
23rd Jan 2007, 10:41
From Game Spot...does this mean what I think it does? Does it mean that when Lara reaches an area that would require a bit of thought to think of a safe way to get her across we will be led by the nose again with icons telling us which buttons to push?

"One thing to note about Anniversary Collection's mechanics is that they've been opened up some to include elements introduced in Legend such as the grapple, context-sensitive actions, and the cinematic button-pressing moments."

floydthebarber
23rd Jan 2007, 14:27
From Game Spot...does this mean what I think it does? Does it mean that when Lara reaches an area that would require a bit of thought to think of a safe way to get her across we will be led by the nose again with icons telling us which buttons to push?

"One thing to note about Anniversary Collection's mechanics is that they've been opened up some to include elements introduced in Legend such as the grapple, context-sensitive actions, and the cinematic button-pressing moments."

I don't know how one can read it any other way. It's arrogance at it's worst, ie "We know how to do it better than the original, and we'll jam it down your throats".

We have to face facts; that the kiddies have won and that any challenging, control intensive segments and maneuvers will be a "hand-holding" experience. It's insulting and unnecessary.

ahimsa
23rd Jan 2007, 14:52
I don't know how one can read it any other way. It's arrogance at it's worst, ie "We know how to do it better than the original, and we'll jam it down your throats".

We have to face facts; that the kiddies have won and that any challenging, control intensive segments and maneuvers will be a "hand-holding" experience. It's insulting and unnecessary.


From what all I read, it was saying this new game was Legend, Legend, Legend, with a healthy helping of PoP thrown in...oh and they would use the TR 1 story, but they would have to fix it since it was never done right. :(

So they did learn something all right; they learned that there are more teenagers willing to buy yet another ADD game than there are adults willing to buy games requiring patience.

Level editor it is then.

Part of the fun was figuring out how to get her across a dangerous section without hurting or killing her.

CatSuit&Ponytail
23rd Jan 2007, 19:18
I was enjoying the conversation up until the doomsday declaration of more spoon feeding.

But I am going to stiff upper lip it, and force myself to hope some more. I want Anniversary to be glorious. I want it to be as intense as TR was originally, as majestic, as intriguing, as adventurous...well, I am waiting like the rest of you, hoping.

mrcube
23rd Jan 2007, 19:29
I was enjoying the conversation up until the doomsday declaration of more spoon feeding.

But I am going to stiff upper lip it, and force myself to hope some more. I want Anniversary to be glorious. I want it to be as intense as TR was originally, as majestic, as intriguing, as adventurous...well, I am waiting like the rest of you, hoping.

Yup, all we can do is wait and hope.

Raider0011
23rd Jan 2007, 20:47
This is a really long thread, but I did want to say that I think these features should be available for those that need them. The autograb less so, but I do think that the tips from Zip and Alister are very helpful for new players and greatly improves Tomb Raider's potential to bring in new fans. I do however think that this should be able to be turned off though for those that don't need it. As ingrained in the story as it was in Legend though, I think they would still need to have Zip and Alister chiming in with story elements, but I don't think they need to assist in game play unless the player requires it. The autograb I can't stand though, and would not miss whatsoever...

ahimsa
23rd Jan 2007, 23:57
I was enjoying the conversation up until the doomsday declaration of more spoon feeding.

But I am going to stiff upper lip it, and force myself to hope some more. I want Anniversary to be glorious. I want it to be as intense as TR was originally, as majestic, as intriguing, as adventurous...well, I am waiting like the rest of you, hoping.

I didn't write the Game Spot article; I only quoted it. Autograb and the same Legend save system is in Anniversary as well.

It wasn't a "doomsday declaration", it was just me pointing to an article that the TR community seems to have overlooked as it was written at the same time as the other article.

I won't post here anymore. I'll wait and come back after the game is out and read how much all of you are loving the game and how great CD is for keeping up with the times by not making you have to see if you could have saved her yourself or if you could have grabbed that pole yourself. And the graphics will be very pretty, which I don't deny, and you will get three times more of it so it will take longer to go from one end of a bridge to the other. However that doesn't mean you will get to actually explore.

Good thing I didn't ask what the other thing meant; no telling what you would have accused me of then.

RuumTaedor
24th Jan 2007, 01:15
Hey ahimsa, I think you're taking things a little too personally. Perhaps one's intent was misinterpreted, but I'm quite sure CatSuit is not trying to offend anyone, and I don't think anyone is accusing you of anything. It's good to have members such as you noting Tomb Raider articles. People are allowed their opinions about articles, but it's not a reflection on you.

CatSuit&Ponytail
24th Jan 2007, 13:14
Thank you Ruum. You get a cookie.

Ahimsa, I was indeed just pointing out my dismay at what was referenced in the article, and not making any comment upon you in any way. I am sorry you misunderstood my intent, but cannot see why you did.

To spell it out and derail any further misunderstanding for those who are new to these forums and don't "know" me:

I love Tomb Raider in all it's incarnations, and have for many years. I however have felt that the recent games have gone too far into the auto-play direction, and take too much of the gameplay away with the newbie-player-help concepts. They are all still good games, but I miss the independence of the early ones. To remake the original with the new give-the-poor-player-it-all-automatically mentality is to me a mistake, hence my doomsday interpretation of a newsclip that glorifies the new no-hassle-game-style that others will no doubt find joyful. But since I am a cockeyed optimist, I still have hope the new game will rock. :)

So to sum up: Me=oldstyle TR lover ;)

ahimsa
24th Jan 2007, 14:07
Thank you Ruum. You get a cookie.

Ahimsa, I was indeed just pointing out my dismay at what was referenced in the article, and not making any comment upon you in any way. I am sorry you misunderstood my intent, but cannot see why you did.

To spell it out and derail any further misunderstanding for those who are new to these forums and don't "know" me:

I love Tomb Raider in all it's incarnations, and have for many years. I however have felt that the recent games have gone too far into the auto-play direction, and take too much of the gameplay away with the newbie-player-help concepts. They are all still good games, but I miss the independence of the early ones. To remake the original with the new give-the-poor-player-it-all-automatically mentality is to me a mistake, hence my doomsday interpretation of a newsclip that glorifies the new no-hassle-game-style that others will no doubt find joyful. But since I am a cockeyed optimist, I still have hope the new game will rock. :)

So to sum up: Me=oldstyle TR lover ;)


Sorry, I took it wrong. I thought you were seeing me as someone acting all doomsdayish about this.

I'm upset at the direction that they have decided to take the game and sad too.

With me, got burned on AOD, was cautious with Legend and only rented and good thing I did or I would have felt burned twice and you know the saying about being fooled twice, so naturally I am very hesitant about this one and finding out that it will still have autograb, and these interactive scenes, and none of her old moves, and will be even more PoP and Legend like than TR does not give me any reason to feel any optimism.

TR has been hijacked.

Wonder if she can autograb the T Rex

RuumTaedor
24th Jan 2007, 14:17
Thank you Ruum. You get a cookie.

Mmmm, cookies. Thanks Cat. :)

CatSuit&Ponytail
24th Jan 2007, 14:45
Wonder if she can autograb the T Rex
OMG! That would be so totally awesome! Like, Shadow Of The Colossus Awesome! :D :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I'd buy that. :D :lmao:

Advent-Lara
24th Jan 2007, 15:16
They should make the autograb not or like with AoD with holding the walk button she grabs the ledges...i loved the walk button..

mrcube
24th Jan 2007, 16:24
They should make the autograb not or like with AoD with holding the walk button she grabs the ledges...i loved the walk button..

Yeah, that seems like sensible comprimise, kinda like what she did in the original, but more updated.

CatSuit&Ponytail
24th Jan 2007, 17:14
TR has been hijacked.


Actually, that's not far from the truth. I read that the original developers targeted the game towards 18-24 year old males. It is our great misfortune that in wanting a younger audience, they simplified so much gameplay.

floydthebarber
24th Jan 2007, 18:34
I won't post here anymore.

That was quick! Welcome back! :D


Actually, that's not far from the truth. I read that the original developers targeted the game towards 18-24 year old males. It is our great misfortune that in wanting a younger audience, they simplified so much gameplay.

I guess in this day and age you need a "market". What about producing something out of your imagination that you believe in? I'm sure that Toby Gard originally felt that way (who knows how he truly feels now). Once corporations get a hold of anything it simply becomes dollar signs and nothing else. It's pathetic.

mrcube
24th Jan 2007, 19:04
I guess in this day and age you need a "market". What about producing something out of your imagination that you believe in? I'm sure that Toby Gard originally felt that way (who knows how he truly feels now). Once corporations get a hold of anything it simply becomes dollar signs and nothing else. It's pathetic.

Well Said Floyd, it seems that these days, nothing gets made, unless a company knows it's going to be a hit, take Lost, now I love lost, but did you know that the original person who came up with the idea and cleared it for production, was fired before it even aired? Simply because no one thought it was worth the amount of money it cost, but look what happened to that.

Company's need to take more chances, they never give anything new a go these days, just re-brand something with a new logo, and slightly different design. Prince of Persia, Tomb Raider, there's all the same to them, like you say; A dollar sign, although I'm from the UK, so its a pound sign, ;) .

Raider0011
24th Jan 2007, 19:26
Though I understand "why" they implemented the auto-grab, I really hate it. It was very frustrating at times. Will I hate the game if this is in Anniversary (Assuming I can play it - where's the XBox 360 version...)? No, but I think it makes the game too easy. Would it be nice if this feature were present in the Easy mode, but left out of the Hard modes? Yes. That I would support 100%. I would also support an XBox 360 version 100%. :D What say you Eidos??

floydthebarber
24th Jan 2007, 19:56
Though I understand "why" they implemented the auto-grab, I really hate it. It was very frustrating at times. Will I hate the game if this is in Anniversary (Assuming I can play it - where's the XBox 360 version...)? No, but I think it makes the game too easy. Would it be nice if this feature were present in the Easy mode, but left out of the Hard modes? Yes. That I would support 100%. I would also support an XBox 360 version 100%. :D What say you Eidos??

:thumbsup: As I have stated repeatedly, this should be a no-brainer for them to do.

ahimsa
24th Jan 2007, 23:45
That was quick! Welcome back! :D

I calm down quick. :D

ahimsa
25th Jan 2007, 00:38
Though I understand "why" they implemented the auto-grab, I really hate it. It was very frustrating at times. Will I hate the game if this is in Anniversary (Assuming I can play it - where's the XBox 360 version...)? No, but I think it makes the game too easy. Would it be nice if this feature were present in the Easy mode, but left out of the Hard modes? Yes. That I would support 100%. I would also support an XBox 360 version 100%. :D What say you Eidos??


I could stomach autograb more if it wasn't for everything and if you needed to be accurate in where you were slinging her. I also want her to be able to hop down off of small things without grabbing on.

Younglara_babe
25th Jan 2007, 03:21
While Legend was a good game, I still prefer my Tomb Raider II (which I've played so often the disc dosn't work anymore...)

Now, there are some parts of Legend I liked and some I didn't. I enjoyed hunting down the secrets and getting the prizes and the pistol upgrades were a bonus in my trigger happy world. I also enjoyed having the Manor back, but that could have been alot better. Only 4 rooms other than the main hall and Winston just stood there; really creeped me out. There were times that I liked the contact between Lara and Zip/Alistor (I like Zip...lol) but usually I prefer the silence of the older games, and the music you hear in those moments. If you're going to have contact with someone, make it at the beginning/end of the levels or at very, very crucial points. We don't need Zip to tell us to run when the floor is opening beneath us. Its just common sense to do that.

However, Legend has its downfalls...

Auto-grab: There were times I really, really appriciated this, but it normally got in my way. If I get clumsy and make Lara fall, make me suffer my controller throwing fits and I'll get over it.

The Shiney Clues: I don't even know what this feature is called. This made the game to easy. Way to easy. We're stuck somewhere and we see a shimmering light. Oh look! We now know how to proceed and didn't have to use our heads at all. First time I saw this, I stared at the screen trying to figure out what was wrong.

Limited Inventory: Tomb Raider fans know that Lara's bag is magical and can very easily hold everything along with several kitchen sinks. So now why do we only get 2 different weapons, 4 grenades and 3 or lower Medi-kits? No, bad idea! I am a medi-kit horder and my clutziness spreads from my PS2 controller and into Lara. Give me my flares, medi-kits, dozens of weapons and key items back, please!

There is probably much more I can say about Legend, but I won't. I've been playing Tomb Raider for nearly 11 years, since I was 8 (wow..) and, while I wouldn't necessarily be called a die-hard compared to some of you, I'm a fan. I've got all the console versions and have played them through several dozens of times, more so than others (TR2) and still love them. If it weren't for the secrets, Zip and different challenge levels, I probably wouldn't play Legend as much as the others. Good game, but the story line was lacking and I wanted to be able to explore, not follow a set path.

Before rambling again, I will most definitly buy Anniversary. I want it to be glorious and majestic like the first time I played. And now I won't worry about the graphics making me feel ill when Lara rolls.


OMG! That would be so totally awesome! Like, Shadow Of The Colossus Awesome! :D :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I'd buy that. :D :lmao:

ZOMG!!! Do it!! That'd be hilarious! :lol:


Actually, that's not far from the truth. I read that the original developers targeted the game towards 18-24 year old males. It is our great misfortune that in wanting a younger audience, they simplified so much gameplay.

I think they might have been off by just a little. An 8 year old female...bet they never saw that coming. Making gameplay easier for younger audiences is a bad excuse. If an 8 year old can figure out the original Tomb Raider without breaking down, then teenagers can figure it out.

Raider0011
28th Jan 2007, 20:30
I agree with autograb, if they refined it a bit it could be better, but as it stands it was very frustrating. My concern is, if when I was jumping for something and the autograb kicked in and Lara grabbed something else, if they went with an action button, like prior versions of TR, wouldn't she still grab random platforms, etc.? I think this really needs to be refined....

Dogfight
1st Feb 2007, 17:31
I know you harcore fans of Tomb Raider really want things to go back to how they were for Tomb Raider 1 but this is not going to happen. Also, once more, most people were satisfied with the autograb feature. I personally had no problem at all with the autograb feature, but had tons of problems getting the jumping and the grabbing in the original Tomb Raider right. Many of the hardcore fans of Tomb Raider must have enjoyed the insane difficulty of lining up Lara perfectly on a ledge, jumping from the very tip of a ledge unto another ledge, then pressing the grab button just at the right moment, only then to miss grabbing on to another ledge and die a horrible death over and over again, but most gamers are more concerned with having fun than wanting to die. It has been confirmed that autograb will return for Tomb Raider Anniversary.

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=1542267&postcount=102

RuumTaedor
1st Feb 2007, 18:06
I know you harcore fans of Tomb Raider really want things to go back to how they were for Tomb Raider 1 but this is not going to happen.

That's not completely true, unless you are refering just to auto-grab, after all, the ring menu is back. Yes, that minority group of hard-core fans will cause nothing but trouble. They held protest rallies in front of CD, and CD caved in. :rolleyes:

On a side note, did you know that the results of a recent survey revealed that 4 out of 5 dentists prefered auto-grab to manual grab? :D

mrcube
1st Feb 2007, 18:16
I'd call myself a hardcore TR fan, but I never objected to Crystal doing it, but there are certain aspects I don't like.

Like I've said before, I loved Legend, but for me, it wasn't in depth enough, and the autograb seemed to be the most obvious one, aside from the shiny metal things, which I think all players who want a 'hard' mode hated.

If they fix other stuff, and make the levels more detailed and in depth, with a lot more places to explore, no shiny objects, and no invisible walls, I don't mind the autograb staying :D



On a side note, did you know that the results of a recent survey revealed that 4 out of 5 dentists prefered auto-grab to manual grab? :D

Who the hell ran a survey on the autograb to dentists? :rolleyes: Or are they made up results :scratch:

RuumTaedor
1st Feb 2007, 19:00
I was joking, mrcube. OK, so humour isn't my strong point.

mrcube
1st Feb 2007, 19:07
I was joking, mrcube. OK, so humour isn't my strong point.

I kinda guessed, I don't think sarcasm works on forums, for either or us, lol

Dogfight
1st Feb 2007, 23:01
That's not completely true, unless you are refering just to auto-grab, after all, the ring menu is back. Yes, that minority group of hard-core fans will cause nothing but trouble. They held protest rallies in front of CD, and CD caved in. :rolleyes:

On a side note, did you know that the results of a recent survey revealed that 4 out of 5 dentists prefered auto-grab to manual grab? :D

By saying "things" to be more specific I meant that the hardcore fans of Tomb Raider want everything except the graphics for Tomb Raider Anniversary to be the same or very similar to everything in Tomb Raider 1. They want the grid system back and the manual grab system back, but these things the hardcore fans are not going to get. The ring menu is back but that is really just an aesthetic value of Tomb Raider that like the T-Rex was going to be in the game anyways. It was not really a point of contention, unlike other things.

floydthebarber
2nd Feb 2007, 03:30
I know you harcore fans of Tomb Raider really want things to go back to how they were for Tomb Raider 1 but this is not going to happen. Also, once more, most people were satisfied with the autograb feature. I personally had no problem at all with the autograb feature, but had tons of problems getting the jumping and the grabbing in the original Tomb Raider right. Many of the hardcore fans of Tomb Raider must have enjoyed the insane difficulty of lining up Lara perfectly on a ledge, jumping from the very tip of a ledge unto another ledge, then pressing the grab button just at the right moment, only then to miss grabbing on to another ledge and die a horrible death over and over again, but most gamers are more concerned with having fun than wanting to die. It has been confirmed that autograb will return for Tomb Raider Anniversary.

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=1542267&postcount=102

It's nice to know that you were that inept in playing the original game. That explains your juvenile, desperate methods in defending something that you not only want, but need in the remake (since you obviously have problems with more than one key). Perhaps they'll have a super-easy mode for you in the remake.


By saying "things" to be more specific I meant that the hardcore fans of Tomb Raider want everything except the graphics for Tomb Raider Anniversary to be the same or very similar to everything in Tomb Raider 1. They want the grid system back and the manual grab system back, but these things the harcore fans are not going to get. The ring menu is back but that is really just an aesthetic value of Tomb Raider that like the T-Rex was going to be in the game anyways. It was not really a point of contention, unlike other things.


Grow up. I thought I was going to hear a "Nani nani boo boo" or some other tease like that. Go back in your high chair and finish your farina.

rabid metro
2nd Feb 2007, 05:22
... i apologize in advance for straying off topic, however ...


... That explains your juvenile, desperate methods in defending something that you not only want, but need ...
:lol: :nut: :nut: :lol:

... oh, what a hoot! floyd, you slay me with your sly, subtle, self-deprecating humor. the burning satire, the impeccable wit ... :lol: ... too much! stop ...

... you were kidding, right???

They say that ... if YOU can't CUT it, then Tomb Raider MAY BURY you ... :rasp: :rasp:

get it? ... CUT IT ... MAYBURY ... :nut: oh, what a hoot ... stop!!!

floydthebarber
2nd Feb 2007, 06:47
... i apologize in advance for straying off topic, however ...

:lol: :nut: :nut: :lol:

... oh, what a hoot! floyd, you slay me with your sly, subtle, self-deprecating humor. the burning satire, the impeccable wit ... :lol: ... too much! stop ...

... you were kidding, right???

They say that ... if YOU can't CUT it, then Tomb Raider MAY BURY you ... :rasp: :rasp:

get it? ... CUT IT ... MAYBURY ... :nut: oh, what a hoot ... stop!!!

You are correct. You're analogy fits like a glove; it is the pot calling the kettle black. He really p***es me off. His gloating is pathetic. But after failing to get through to him through logic and reason in this thread, I deduced that one must devolve to his level to communicate. I should have just let it go. I apologize if he is mentally handicapped.

mrcube
2nd Feb 2007, 16:16
You are correct. You're analogy fits like a glove; it is the pot calling the kettle black. He really p***es me off. His gloating is pathetic. But after failing to get through to him through logic and reason in this thread, I deduced that one must devolve to his level to communicate. I should have just let it go. I apologize if he is mentally handicapped.

Oh bloody hell people, can we stop with this stupid argument between you two? OK, we get it, you don't like each other, but I don't really care, and having to read your insults about each other isn't the most pleasant thing.

So lets get back to the topic at hand, Tomb Raider! :D

Dogfight
2nd Feb 2007, 16:23
You are correct. You're analogy fits like a glove; it is the pot calling the kettle black. He really p***es me off. His gloating is pathetic. But after failing to get through to him through logic and reason in this thread, I deduced that one must devolve to his level to communicate. I should have just let it go. I apologize if he is mentally handicapped.

Get over it, your logic has always been flawed. If you want a hard game go play the original Dragon Warrior, it is way harder than the original Tomb Raider. Very few gamers today want a hard difficulty. I admit a hard difficulty is fun and challenging but most games today are not designed from that point of view. It is true that just because the grid system and the manual grab in the original Tomb Raider is harder to manage than the new non-grid system and the autograb that is loved by just about everyone does not necessarily make these changes better. Simply put the changes make the new Tomb Raider games more fun and that is what the majority of players want over anything else, but of course the greater difficulty and greater interactivity of the original Tomb Raider is lost with these changes.

You will be happy to know though that the hint system in Tomb Raider Anniversary is now optional.


"In addition to enhancing the isolation and atmosphere of the locations, this allowed us to put the game's hint system back in the player's hands. Players can refer to Lara's Journal for more info if they wish, but it is left up to them when they need a hint, and when they do not."

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=72351

CatSuit&Ponytail
2nd Feb 2007, 17:12
Oh bloody hell people, can we stop with this stupid argument between you two? OK, we get it, you don't like each other, but I don't really care, and having to read your insults about each other isn't the most pleasant thing.

So lets get back to the topic at hand, Tomb Raider! :D

Hear! Hear! :thumbsup:

We love Lara, we love Lara, we love Lara, ...Everybody! Chant the mantra! ...We love Lara, We love Lara!


Any personal jabs can be taken to the fine PM system. :)


Make my day boys, ;)

RuumTaedor
2nd Feb 2007, 18:07
Aww, that's nice.

We love Lara! We love Lara!

You know, Cat, its funny, but I believe I've told your husband this in a thread with a similar sentiment, but I've haven't told you, so...I love you Cat. In fact, I love everyone! Can't you feel the love!

XOXO

mrcube
2nd Feb 2007, 18:22
Aww, that's nice.

We love Lara! We love Lara!

You know, Cat, its funny, but I believe I've told your husband this in a thread with a similar sentiment, but I've haven't told you, so...I love you Cat. In fact, I love everyone! Can't you feel the love!

XOXO

We Love Lara! We Love Lara!

And I can feel the love, let's spread the joy! :D

RuumTaedor
3rd Feb 2007, 04:54
I love you, Mr. Cube. ;)

rabid metro
3rd Feb 2007, 08:23
... hold on ...

They say that Lara-Love is auto-contagious ... ;)

mrcube
3rd Feb 2007, 16:23
I love you, Mr. Cube. ;)

And I love you!! :D

And yeah, this Lara Love is definitely auto-contagious.

ahimsa
4th Feb 2007, 15:56
Get a room you guys! :lol:

I'm actually looking forward to this game despite it's major flaws. Maybe the "TR" they make after Legend part 2 will be a real TR. They're bound to get it right eventually. :D


I love Lara 2

mrcube
4th Feb 2007, 16:12
Get a room you guys! :lol:

I'm actually looking forward to this game despite it's major flaws. Maybe the "TR" they make after Legend part 2 will be a real TR. They're bound to get it right eventually. :D


I love Lara 2

lol. I've moved past that emotional moment now, onward!

I agree, they have to get it right eventually, that can't go on making the same mistakes, the games won't sell.

It seems they are moving in the right direction, after all, as someone posted earlier, it's already been announced that there won't be any more 'shiny objects'.

ahimsa
4th Feb 2007, 23:08
lol. I've moved past that emotional moment now, onward!

I agree, they have to get it right eventually, that can't go on making the same mistakes, the games won't sell.

It seems they are moving in the right direction, after all, as someone posted earlier, it's already been announced that there won't be any more 'shiny objects'.

Hope she doesn't turn her head to let us know where the secrets are. I do recall her looking in the direction of things in TLR, but it was tolerable then.

floydthebarber
5th Feb 2007, 00:43
Hope she doesn't turn her head to let us know where the secrets are. I do recall her looking in the direction of things in TLR, but it was tolerable then.

Actually she did that right from the get-go in the original. She turns to look at the first step up, a short way into the caves (where you see the bats for the first time). It's not a secret, but she does look in the direction where you must go.

ahimsa
5th Feb 2007, 13:30
Actually she did that right from the get-go in the original. She turns to look at the first step up, a short way into the caves (where you see the bats for the first time). It's not a secret, but she does look in the direction where you must go.


That's right, she did, but she didn't stare in the direction of all the secrets and that is what I found annoying in Legend. It's like she has autofind. :D

CatSuit&Ponytail
5th Feb 2007, 13:55
Didn't she actually look in the direction you should go in the first area of the first Tomb Raider , deliberately to mask the fact that there was a secret further along if you ignored her? :) :D :whistle:

floydthebarber
5th Feb 2007, 16:16
Looks like manual grab IS back as an option. :D :D :D

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=85490&page=22

StarChampagne
5th Feb 2007, 18:13
Looks like manual grab IS back as an option. :D :D :D

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=85490&page=22

Great :D

The tombraiderforums are huge and I don't have the time to sift through them all in the way I do here. Thanks :)

Dogfight
8th Feb 2007, 00:28
Well, are you finally satisfied floydthebarber? This announcement from jaywalker shows that Crystal Dynamics actually listened to the fans of Tomb Raider, something which even Core Design, the creators of the Tomb Raider series in their entire time of making Tomb Raider and other games never ever did. Core Design did not even listen to their own colleague Toby Gard. Give props to Crystal Dynamics they are officially better than Core Design, they listened to the the principal creator of Tomb Raider Toby Gard and they listened to the fans. Now you have no more reasons to complain floydthebarber. So when you get Tomb Raider Anniversary give thanks that Core Design and Toby Gard came up with Tomb Raider but also give monumental thanks that Crystal Dynamics brought Tomb Raider back from death at the hands of Core Design and remember that they are a far better developer than Core Design ever was and ever could be. So next time Crystal Dynamics makes another game, give them some slack and remember that they do care about Tomb Raider unlike the very group that created her and then destroyed her. :thumbsup:

On a side note I like both manual grab and autograb, they both have their own strengths and weaknesses. I just preferred the autograb in Tomb Raider Legend to that of the manual grab of Tomb Raider 1 because I did not like how manual grab was implemented in Tomb Raider 1. The manual grab in Tomb Raider 1 for Playstation to me seemed to be imprecise, to be faulty and inaccurate. I much prefer the manual grab in Shadow of the Colossus to the manual grab in Tomb Raider 1.

floydthebarber
8th Feb 2007, 02:02
This announcement from jaywalker shows that Crystal Dynamics actually listened to the fans of Tomb Raider


Also, once more, most people were satisfied with the autograb feature.


It's amazing that they listened to such a miniscule number of players! :rolleyes:

Dogfight
8th Feb 2007, 05:25
It's amazing that they listened to such a miniscule number of players!

You said it, Crystal Dynamics does not just listen to their huge sale numbers they also listen to the harsh criticisms of the small group of naysayers. It shows that Crystal Dynamics cares about what everyone thinks, including the minority of some Tomb Raider fans that want everything their way. Crystal Dynamics after their huge success with Tomb Raider Legend had no reason at all to listen to any of the Tomb Raider fans even if they were remaking Tomb Raider because as long as Tomb Raider Anniversary became a hit and sold well just about no one would care if the game had autograb, had shiny objects and had the grappling hook. Crystal Dynamics put the manual grab as an option in Tomb Raider Anniversary to appease the minority of hardcore fans and this shows how good Tomb Raider Legend really is because it shows that Crystal Dynamics did not just do with Tomb Raider whatever they felt like doing but actually carefully thought about what was best for everybody in the creation of Tomb Raider Legend.:cool: