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shirl123
6th Jan 2007, 11:24
after replaying TRL, and the old(er) TR's I noticed something that kind of bugs me on TRL when it comes to it's puzzles.
on my VERY LONG review (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=63118) for TRL I praised it's quests/puzzles, I still think that they are very fun...but I think that now I know why they were too easy for some of us...

TR:L's puzzles/quests are based mostly on motion and/or (our) instincts. take a look at this (http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/Tombraiders/91.jpg) picture, it's from TR:AE.
what can you all see here? IMO, it's quite obvious what we're supposed to do in there AND it involves mostly motion-puzzles: many places to grab, jumping from here to there, etc...
it's all good, but it's pretty easy once you're trained with Lara's new moves, and to be honest- it looks like a simple puzzle. it may be long, it may be a bit difficult, but it doesn't look like a complex one.

unlike TRL, the quests/puzzles on the classic TR's weren't based mostly on motions- we even had to think hard on some of them.
lets take the levers on Palas Midas (TR1) as an example: you had to look at the marks on the doors just to get a clue on how to open each one of them. on each door you had to go through some obstacles just to get those...ermm...bricks?
that quest made us think hard and it wasn't "too obvious"- "how do I get there?", "what am I supposed to do with those levers?", "where do I get them?"...we didn't solve it right away, it took us some time. this is just one example out of many from the classic TR's.

now, if we want a longer, more difficult game - this may be the answer, quests that make us think more then act.
for example, to make a 3-wheels puzzle more complex on TR:AE, CD could:
1. hide them very well.
2. enemies guarding 'em.
3. "braking" them, and then we'll have to fix 'em in some way.
4. a particular order for the wheels in the big machine.

what made the classic TR's so special is that they weren't only about action and shooting, they also had some very good quests. it was good for both Doom fans and Monkey Island fans (lol).
IMO, CD should bring it back + having the great stuff they did on TRL (THEIR puzzles, etc...) to make the future games even better. ...but this is just an idea.
discuss? :)

burt_ie
6th Jan 2007, 15:27
I agree with you there :D

floydthebarber
6th Jan 2007, 16:31
Just read your review Shirl123 and it is excellent.

Your points raised in this new post are spot on. When I first played TR1 and the next 2 games all those years ago I did not want to have to resort to hints or a walkthrough. I missed many secrets the first time through, but my joy in solving the complex puzzles on my own cannot be understated. When I played TRL I had literally no trouble on any of them. As I have stated previously, it appears that they dumbed down TRL for the kiddies.

Lara as a butcher is also a bad turn, in my mind she is a zealous treasure hound who will defend her self if confronted. I did not particularly care for all the animal killing in any of the games, they could give her a tazer or stun gun for that. The amount of mercenaries in TRL were way over the top. In my mind, the focus should be on getting the item via puzzle solving and exploration, not by shooting your way through a wall of human flesh. I also think that this was the reason they made the character a female in the first place.

shirl123
7th Jan 2007, 18:33
first of all, thanks :)

floydthebarber, actually, it is understand-able :p it's a great feeling knowing that you just solved something big on your own!

as for the action part, yes, you have a good point there. another problem is that there wasn't a big variety of enemies. :scratch:

Joshorty
23rd Jan 2007, 04:33
For sure, Legend didn't had that kind of puzzle. I gotta admit though, TR I puzzles did drove me a little nuts of the fact that I die sometimes inbetween (like falling) or pulling the wrong switch at a wrong timing.

Like in Tomb of Qualopec, it was a good thing I did not pull that switch earlier:D

ditom
23rd Jan 2007, 15:27
I really like classic TR's but some puzzles were too hard for me.
I was terible. Ones I was playing one level for 8 days (TR3).
When I was playing TRL it was very nice and easy (too easy).
I think that TR:A will be same as TR:L because when I look at screenshots it's looks like the puzzles are very simple and all you have to do is just jumping and climbing.We will be able to pass this game in one or two days same as TRL.

shirl123
23rd Jan 2007, 17:09
I think that TR:A will be same as TR:L because when I look at screenshots it's looks like the puzzles are very simple and all you have to do is just jumping and climbing.We will be able to pass this game in one or two days same as TRL.

yes, my point exactly on TR:A! ...which is too bad.

as for difficulty - that's the beauty of it, even if it drives you nuts. :p you have to think hard, not just to act quick. so yeah, it may take a little longer to finish the levels (which is good, IMO, because Legend didn't last for long) but it'll be more...satisfying? and it simply adds more depth to the game-play.

floydthebarber
23rd Jan 2007, 17:14
I really like classic TR's but some puzzles were too hard for me.
I was terible. Ones I was playing one level for 8 days (TR3).
When I was playing TRL it was very nice and easy (too easy).
I think that TR:A will be same as TR:L because when I look at screenshots it's looks like the puzzles are very simple and all you have to do is just jumping and climbing.We will be able to pass this game in one or two days same as TRL.

It should be tough. As I have said before, there are walkthroughs and hints online and elsewhere for those who are puzzle-challenged. The rest of us shouldn't suffer because some are unable to figure something out.

ditom
23rd Jan 2007, 20:16
It should be tough. As I have said before, there are walkthroughs and hints online and elsewhere for those who are puzzle-challenged. The rest of us shouldn't suffer because some are unable to figure something out.

I never use walkthroughts because it's not playing the game.Even I had to play one level for two years I would never use it.
Tomb Raider is the only game that drives me nuts and thats why I love it.
Give me example please who suffers ? It's not my fault that TRL is so easy.I don't like it to. I think that Tomb Raider 8 will be more difficult because it's going to be on new engine and levels will be larger and puzzles will (or should) be more difficult.

floydthebarber
23rd Jan 2007, 20:33
I never use walkthroughts because it's not playing the game.Even I had to play one level for two years I would never use it.
Tomb Raider is the only game that drives me nuts and thats why I love it.
Give me example please who suffers ? It's not my fault that TRL is so easy.I don't like it to. I think that Tomb Raider 8 will be more difficult because it's going to be on new engine and levels will be larger and puzzles will (or should) be more difficult.

Do not take all words so literally ditom. It would be ones enjoyment of the game that would suffer. When an intelligent player is confronted with ultra-simplistic puzzles and routes that may as well be subway tunnels, then that player will feel insulted. Because the games designers will have created a game that is far under their capabilities as a player. In this manner they will suffer.

ditom
23rd Jan 2007, 20:45
So,I'm going to suffer.

floydthebarber
23rd Jan 2007, 20:49
So,I'm going to suffer.

:) Yes, you are quite intelligent! Your posts here show that. I meant no disrespect to you ditom. i was simply answering your question, not aligning the issue you raised with you personally.

ditom
23rd Jan 2007, 20:56
:) Yes, you are quite intelligent! Your posts here show that. I meant no disrespect to you ditom. i was simply answering your question, not aligning the issue you raised with you personally.

Thanks:)
Now I'm waiting for TR:8.Maby we will see something new.
I enjoyed playing TRL but I felt like I was watching film.I mean 6 hours takes me to finish game (without secrets), and the puzzles (if we call that puzzles) were so easy that I didn't nead to think how to pass it.

CatSuit&Ponytail
24th Jan 2007, 14:18
Just read your review Shirl123 and it is excellent.

Your points raised in this new post are spot on. When I first played TR1 and the next 2 games all those years ago I did not want to have to resort to hints or a walkthrough. I missed many secrets the first time through, but my joy in solving the complex puzzles on my own cannot be understated. When I played TRL I had literally no trouble on any of them. As I have stated previously, it appears that they dumbed down TRL for the kiddies.

Lara as a butcher is also a bad turn, in my mind she is a zealous treasure hound who will defend her self if confronted. ***I did not particularly care for all the animal killing in any of the games, they could give her a tazer or stun gun for that.*** The amount of mercenaries in TRL were way over the top. In my mind, the focus should be on getting the item via puzzle solving and exploration, not by shooting your way through a wall of human flesh. I also think that this was the reason they made the character a female in the first place.

I had to make Lara use tranquilizer darts in her guns to get around this obvious oversight by the developers. It's the only way I could get through some parts. Mostly I try to avoid the animals, be quicker than them, take some damage, but when I have to, they get tranqued. ;)

ditom
24th Jan 2007, 15:12
I can see that you love animals.I always kill them.

rabid metro
25th Jan 2007, 03:10
... i think that forcing tomb raider to be hard would result in diminished interest (as we've already seen). i enjoy figuring out the tomb raider stuff but not everyone does. to each, his/her own. i think CD would be wise to provide hard bits more in the form of side quests or personal challenges that were not intrinsic to beating the game. that way, everyone wins, everyone has bragging rights and tomb raider makes lots of money and there's the possibility of even more games ...


They say that getting stuck between a rock and a hard place should be avoided ... :rolleyes:

shirl123
25th Jan 2007, 07:45
first of all, difficult motion-puzzles can cause an interest-loss too *ahem*Nepal*ahem*.

I agree it shouldn't be too hard, but on the other hand - it was too easy and too obvious on TRL. why? because it was based on motions/our instincts, not our creativity. you don't plan your moves by jumping around (besides planning your jumps, but it's a piece of cake). ;)
even if CD will make the motion puzzles more difficult on TR:A, it will remain too obvious, and easy for those of us who are well trained with Lara's moves (= most of us).

one of the reasons why I got into the TR series back then was that it wasn't like most action games - just shooting anything that moves and collecting ammo, the classic TR's also challanged your creativity by using quests. it didn't feel like "another superficial action game" to me. unfortunatly, even though I love TRL, I can't say that about this game.

side quests? like finding the secrets? I disagree, it will make the game unbalanced: it'll be more challanging/interesting to find the secrets then the rest of game, because the game itself will have "kiddo" challanges.

ditom
25th Jan 2007, 15:45
first of all, difficult motion-puzzles can cause an interest-loss too *ahem*Nepal*ahem*.

I agree it shouldn't be too hard, but on the other hand - it was too easy and too obvious on TRL. why? because it was based on motions/our instincts, not our creativity. you don't plan your moves by jumping around (besides planning your jumps, but it's a piece of cake). ;)
even if CD will make the motion puzzles more difficult on TR:A, it will remain too obvious, and easy for those of us who are well trained with Lara's moves (= most of us).

one of the reasons why I got into the TR series back then was that it wasn't like most action games - just shooting anything that moves and collecting ammo, the classic TR's also challanged your creativity by using quests. it didn't feel like "another superficial action game" to me. unfortunatly, even though I love TRL, I can't say that about this game.

side quests? like finding the secrets? I disagree, it will make the game unbalanced: it'll be more challanging/interesting to find the secrets then the rest of game, because the game itself will have "kiddo" challanges.

I agree with you but I think that TR puzzles should be very hard because puzzles makes TR so very good game. If someone doesn't like puzzles he/she shouldn't play this game.

I don't like most of action games too that's why I'm the biggest fan of TR and Lara Croft.

ditom
25th Jan 2007, 15:50
And I also agree with you that finding secrets is interesting.I like this very much.
But I have time trials.I can't pass (still) Kazahstan and England.:mad:

shirl123
25th Jan 2007, 21:57
And I also agree with you that finding secrets is interesting.I like this very much.
But I have time trials.I can't pass (still) Kazahstan and England.:mad:

if that cheers you up - you're doing better then me. ;)

as for the secrets, I was refering to this:

i think CD would be wise to provide hard bits more in the form of side quests or personal challenges that were not intrinsic to beating the game.

so, I disagree with "side quests" (secrets, time trials) being much more difficult then the rest of the game, because it'll make the game unbalanced. the secrets should be well hidden (TR2, anyone? ;)), not more then that.

ditom
25th Jan 2007, 22:17
Yes It's very easy to find secrets in TRL.
In TR2 or in TR5 it wasn't so easy.

tombraiderxlegend
28th Jan 2007, 04:04
TR:A is just a remake of TR1. So basically if they do what im thinking. All they'll have is new controls, and maybe some new levels but. You know. I liked the easiness of TRL because a lot of kids like to play it, and they don't want to have to do all this hard crap. I get what your saying and it was too easy. But for first-timers it could be SUPER hard. But, I've played & beat all the games with all the extras & stuff.

I'm stuck on some things. I have most of all the outfits. 26 out of 32. Btw, england stinks. It's too hard for moi. xD :mad2:

Anyways, yeah.

I love how you want a challenge when people are too chicken to have one. xD

tombraiderxlegend
28th Jan 2007, 04:06
And I also agree with you that finding secrets is interesting.I like this very much.
But I have time trials.I can't pass (still) Kazahstan and England.:mad:

In Kazakhstan use the shortcut. It's on TRHub. Using the box to get on the moving platform helps a bunch. Plus don't shoot the guards and stuff.

I still can't pass England.

ahimsa
28th Jan 2007, 14:17
I had to make Lara use tranquilizer darts in her guns to get around this obvious oversight by the developers. It's the only way I could get through some parts. Mostly I try to avoid the animals, be quicker than them, take some damage, but when I have to, they get tranqued. ;)


I like the dart idea. I always hate when I have to have her kill the animals.

I miss the need to actually think in these new "TR" games. The best part for me with the TR games was figuring out things and then getting her to do what was needed. TR:AOD and TR:L don't really allow you to think. Here's the path and if there is anything to be done it will be made very obvious; someone will whisper the information into her headset, or there will be icons, flashy things, and written instructions pop up.

ditom
28th Jan 2007, 15:09
TR AOD could be very nice game but controls and bugs were terible!

tombraiderxlegend
28th Jan 2007, 15:16
Ughh. I absolutely hated AOD. I thought everything was horrid. Why the heck would you lose health/breath for grabbing a ledge or something. o.O :mad2: :confused:

shirl123
28th Jan 2007, 17:13
TR:A is just a remake of TR1. So basically if they do what im thinking. All they'll have is new controls, and maybe some new levels but. You know. I liked the easiness of TRL because a lot of kids like to play it, and they don't want to have to do all this hard crap. I get what your saying and it was too easy. But for first-timers it could be SUPER hard. But, I've played & beat all the games with all the extras & stuff.

I'm stuck on some things. I have most of all the outfits. 26 out of 32. Btw, england stinks. It's too hard for moi. xD :mad2:

Anyways, yeah.

I love how you want a challenge when people are too chicken to have one. xD

it's not only about being too easy (and too obvious, even on Hard level), it also makes the game shorter. it's not always about the quantity, sometimes it's also about the quality. ;)
the motion puzzles could be a bit harder (but they'll stay too obvious :rolleyes:), but then again, I know that I want to use my creativity to solve most of them them - not just my instincts.
most TR fans I know are very intelligent, they can handle these stuff easily. the ones who may have some difficulties can use a walkthrough, it doesn't mean that we all have to a game that doesn't even make us think much about our moves.

tombraiderxlegend
28th Jan 2007, 17:17
True, very true.

I just wish England wouldn't be so hard. xD I know for most people, it's like opening a door easy, but yeah. xD

ditom
29th Jan 2007, 18:26
it's not only about being too easy (and too obvious, even on Hard level), it also makes the game shorter. it's not always about the quantity, sometimes it's also about the quality. ;)
the motion puzzles could be a bit harder (but they'll stay too obvious :rolleyes:), but then again, I know that I want to use my creativity to solve most of them them - not just my instincts.
most TR fans I know are very intelligent, they can handle these stuff easily. the ones who may have some difficulties can use a walkthrough, it doesn't mean that we all have to a game that doesn't even make us think much about our moves.

I agree with you.If puzzles are hard the game not short because you have to think about problem bit longer.In Legend puzzles are piece of cake.
In TR 1-4 puzzles were hard so you passed game in 2-3 months ( I passed TR4 in 6 months :nut: ). As I can see TRA will be easy like TRL so I'm waiting for TR8. But I will play TRA offcourse :D

tombraiderxlegend
30th Jan 2007, 23:44
True, very true.

I just wish England wouldn't be so hard. xD I know for most people, it's like opening a door easy, but yeah. xD

Muahahaha. I finally beat England's Time Trial. It was actually pretty easy. I like the rope shortcut. Instead of jumping to the next stairs on the stair part, do a roll at the end of the first stairs and you can land on the rope!

Anyways, I <3 the bulletproof cheat.